1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to steph Mom Never Told You From House Stuff 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:14,159 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And last episode we talked about 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: the future of gay marriage and we realized what a 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: perfect segue into wedding season. Hooray, hurrah. It is August 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: and wedding season is officially in full swing. So this 7 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: episode we're talking about engagement rings, and the next episode 8 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: just to round out a wedding week to kick off 9 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: wedding season. Because of course, with stuff Mom Never told You, 10 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: there's endless fodder for us to talk about with wedding 11 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: season wedding related topics. So we're gonna kick it off 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: with engagement rings. Next episode spoiler, we're gonna talk about 13 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: bachelorette party s. Woot woot. But let's yes, well, let's 14 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: start on a classy note with engagement rings and diamonds. 15 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: Seventy five percent of American brides are wearing a diamond 16 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: engagement ring, and Caroline, can you guess how much the 17 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: average engagement ring costs? Is it two months salary? It's 18 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: about two months salary, according to a two thousand nine 19 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: survey from the not dot com the average engagement ring 20 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: costs five thousand, eight hundred and forty seven clams. Interesting. Yeah, 21 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: it's a lot of money to wear on your finger. 22 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: It's not cheap. Uh. So let's jump right in to 23 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: a timeline of engagement rings. When we started wearing these 24 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: pricey rings, what they symbolize, and what the deal is 25 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: with those diamonds. We touched on the diamond aspect a 26 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: long time ago, years ago in a podcast solely devoted 27 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: with diamonds, but we figured it's high time to revisit this. Yeah. 28 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: There is a long history of engagement type or betrothal 29 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: type jewelry that men present to their beloved everything, you know, 30 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: from ancient Egypt to Rome to Asia. Uh, just a 31 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: tradition of grooms giving brides some kind of essentially like 32 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: betrothal tag. Yeah. Although my my favorite of these are 33 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: called puzzle rings that appeared in the first century BC 34 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: in Asia. But one of the first recorded uses of 35 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: a diamond engagement ring comes in fourteen seventy seven with 36 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: arch Duke Maximilian of Austria who proposed to marry of Burgundy. Yeah, 37 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: and the ring supposedly had thin flat pieces of diamond 38 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: in the shape of an M for her initial. How 39 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: sweet that does sound kind of sweet. I hope he 40 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: really did love her. Maximilian, Yeah, Maximilian and Mary. I 41 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: have a feeling that this was probably more of a 42 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: diplomatic union. But I like the idea of those little 43 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: diamonds spelling out her initial. That's true. That was at 44 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: least thoughtful. That was thoughtful. Um. But moving forward a 45 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: little bit there, there is some sketchy history of engagement 46 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: rings and things that we are not quite sure how 47 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: accurate they are. But one of them that's we're not 48 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: quite sure of, but that is interesting if it is true. UM. 49 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: In the eighteenth century, Puritans in America supposedly gave their 50 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: betrothed thimbles instead of rings, which they thought of as frivolous. 51 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: But eventually many women were like, I want to ring still, 52 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: and so those thimbles got sawed off to be actual 53 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: ring shaped items. And the Victorians were also bands of 54 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: romantic jewelry. We have things like poesy rings, and also 55 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds jewelry made from human hair. I 56 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: posted a picture of that on our tumbler a while ago. UM. 57 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: And they also used gemstones to spell out terms of endearments, 58 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: so a very strong connection between romance and jewelry. And 59 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: in the eighteen forties the engagement ring tradition, as we 60 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: think of it in a more modern sense, really takes 61 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: off in the United States. But at that time they 62 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: were given to both women and men. It's not until 63 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds when the women only custom really takes hold. Yeah. Well, so, uh, 64 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: the push to give diamonds really got going in uh 65 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: towards the mid to late nineteenth century. In eighteen sixty seven, 66 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: the diamonds supplied got a huge boost when diamonds were 67 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: discovered in the Cape Colony in Africa, which is now 68 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: part of South Africa, and that that gets us rolling 69 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: on the the Beers Mining Company and a huge flood 70 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: of diamonds into the market. Yeah. Previously, diamonds had only 71 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: been found in Indian river beds in Brazilian jungles, so 72 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: they really were these precious gemstones that were often reserved 73 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: for wealthier people and royalty. But when Cecil Rhods founded 74 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: that the Beers Mining Company in eighteen eighty, it shifted 75 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: the entire industry, and six years later in eighteen eighty six, 76 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: Tiffany and Company introduces the Tiffany setting, which was designed 77 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: to maximize a diamond's brilliance by raising it up from 78 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: the band, as opposed to like with Archduke Maximilian's ring setting, 79 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: which had the thin flat pieces of diamonds set into 80 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: the band. Tiffany really put the diamond in the spotlight. Yeah. 81 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: And then moving forward into the eighteen nineties, we have 82 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: the appearance of affordable wedding and engagement rings in mail 83 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: order catalogs. So that's how popular and commonplace they were becoming, 84 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: that you could pick up a Sears and Robot catalog 85 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: and buy your sweetie an engagement ring. And then in 86 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen we have Cardier creating the Trinity ring for 87 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: Jene Cocteau who gives one to his lover, poet Raymond Redigo. 88 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: And it's still a traditional wedding ring in France. And 89 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: that's the Trinity ring is when you have the three 90 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: bands that inner lock. I think it's white gold, yellow, 91 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: golden rose gold. If I'm not mistaken, somebody correct me. 92 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: So even though at this point engagement rings are still 93 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: being given, it's still not the idea of giving someone 94 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: that huge rock. The whole idea of a man needing 95 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: to spend two months salary on a ring to really 96 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: prove his worth and really give that woman a ring 97 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: that she deserves, that she's gonna wear on her hand 98 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: for the rest of her life, for for the rest 99 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: of their nupshials, however long that might last. Um And 100 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: in the background, we have some legal changes that are 101 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: about to start going on, which is going to play 102 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: a big part in why we see diamond engagement rings 103 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: as the standard today. Now, there used to be a 104 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: law called the breach of promise to marry that allowed 105 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: women to sue for breaking off an engagement, because essentially 106 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: marriage was, you know, very much an economic arrangement. Women 107 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: would literally lend their hands in marriage. So back in 108 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: the day, there was a law called the breach of 109 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: promise to marry that allowed women to sue men for 110 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: breaking off an engagement because if that was the case, 111 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: there is a decent chance that she and the groom 112 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: to be would have already done it, and if he 113 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: walked out before they walked down the aisle, she would, 114 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: in society's eyes, be damaged goods how charming and so legally, 115 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: under this breach of promised to marry law, she could sue. 116 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: Now the guy could also sue as well, but usually 117 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: it was more a protection for these potentially sexually spoiled women. 118 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: I hate to put it in those terms, but that 119 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: was really how it went. Because economically, a woman who 120 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: had had sex before marriage had lost her quote unquote 121 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: market value. But in the nineteen thirties, states began striking 122 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: down the law, and by sixteen states, which at the 123 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 1: time accounted for nearly half of the population in the 124 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: United States, had made it obsolete. But what is happening 125 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: at the same time, Caroline, to maybe swoop in symbolically 126 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: and take the place of these breach to marry laws. Oh, 127 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: that would be diamond engagement rings were become a more 128 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: than just decorative jewelry or something that maybe just the 129 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: upper class or the royalty were giving to their beloved. Uh. 130 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: That initial search in diamond imports from companies liked Beers, 131 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: which we're about to get into, started in n So 132 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, states are striking down 133 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: this breach of promise to marry law, but women are 134 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: still getting as as all of these diamonds are coming 135 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: into the market in the US, they're still getting some 136 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: type of literally financial insurance against being left. Yeah, this 137 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: offers the brides to be a form of collateral, this 138 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,599 Speaker 1: upfront financial insurance in the form of a more expensive 139 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: diamond ring. And this also is when we see that 140 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: cement shifted from men and women getting some form of 141 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: engagement rings to it just being a thing given to 142 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: the women. Um and as this is happening to this 143 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: is a boon for the Beers cartel because, as you mentioned, 144 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: we have the discovery of all of those diamonds in 145 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: South Africa around eighteen seventy, which endangered the investments made 146 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: by British financiers who had organized the minds there because 147 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: the market was flooded with all of these new diamonds, 148 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: and so these financiers were worried that the diamonds would 149 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: become only semi precious stones. Enter de Beers consolidated minds limited. 150 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: How they were able to do this, I don't even know. Well, 151 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: it is funny to think about. I thought the same thing, 152 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: like that is so shady. But I mean I feel like, 153 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: as we've discovered on the podcast so many times, stuff 154 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: was just shady back then. Yeah, could you offer our 155 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: listeners a rundown of the extent of this De Beers 156 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: diamond monopoly. Yeah. So basically, when all these investors were 157 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: so concerned about protecting their interests and their investments in 158 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: these minds, they decided to merge into a powerful single 159 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: entity in eighteen eighty eight, which was the De Beers 160 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: Consolidated Minds Limited. But in London they operated under the 161 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: name Diamond Trading Company. That's nice and generic. In Israel 162 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: they were known as the Syndicate. Across Europe they were 163 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: called the Central Selling Organization, which was an arm, a 164 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: supposed arm of the Diamond Trading Company. And in Africa, 165 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: outside of South Africa, they were disguised under various subsidiaries. 166 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: So like I mean, people only people who are doing 167 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: shady things need to cover it up, right, Yeah, because 168 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: they were creating this massive diamond monopoly which allowed them 169 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: to stabilize the price of diamonds because other commodities values 170 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: are fluctuating in response to economic conditions, because hello, what's 171 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: about to happen the Great Depression sending commodities prices down, 172 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: but the diamonds prices were actually increasing at that time 173 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: due to the power of that De Beers entity. But 174 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen thirties, demand for diamonds was still 175 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: down in Europe, and so de Beers said, you know what, 176 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: we have a giant potential market in the United States. 177 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: But they also had with so many diamonds, problems with 178 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: quality and problems with some lagging sales. So bring in 179 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: the marketers. Yeah. Well, around this time, about three fours 180 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: of all the de Beers Cartel's diamonds were sold for 181 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: engagement rings in the US. But it is funny to 182 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: note that, like if you go back and look at 183 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: rings from this time, you know a lot of jewelers 184 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: were quoted in stories about this stuff. They are really 185 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: poor quality because people were not as concerned with quality, clarity, 186 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: cut all of that stuff we know is the four Seas. Now, 187 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: they just wanted a big old rock, and so quality 188 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: did suffer. But yeah, it's this is really a job 189 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: for marketing now. And so de Beers brought in agency 190 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: in dew Air, which stressed to the need to strengthen 191 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: the association of diamonds with romance in the public's mind. 192 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: Convince young men that diamonds are a gift of love 193 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,479 Speaker 1: and convince women that they're an integral part of courtship 194 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: and and what our attitudes about engagement rings today, same thing, 195 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: that they are a gift of love that you have 196 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: to get it for your fiancee. And the woman has 197 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: the opinion, you know, like, oh well, if I don't 198 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: get a ring, like I mean, that's just part of engagement. 199 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: I have to get a diamond, right, and not just 200 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: any ring. It needs to be an impressive diamond ring 201 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: so that she can do the show off with with 202 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: you know, flashing her her rock for friends and family 203 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: and who knows, just strangers and grocery lines. And it's 204 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: incredible to think of how they were able to do 205 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: things like tap into this early celebrity culture because by 206 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: this point movie stars were really huge, and so they 207 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: would do things like have diamond photo ops essentially for 208 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: movie stars to show off their rings. They would take 209 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: out print and radio ads. But they still needed a slogan, 210 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: and in nineteen forty seven, copywriter Francis Garrity coined a 211 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: diamond is Forever, which Advertising Age named the slogan of 212 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: the Century. And I like to think of Francis Gearity 213 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: for Madman fans out there. I like to think of 214 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: her as a Peggy Olsen before her Day's funny because 215 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: she said that nobody was really excited about the slogan 216 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: when she came up with it, but that it eventually 217 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: became de beers like, that's their motto, that's their official slogan. 218 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: It's on all of their advertisements still well so by 219 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: the end of the nineteen fifties, UH the agency inw 220 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: Air reported to to Beers that hey are all our 221 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: hard work is paid off. Twenty years of advertisements and 222 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: publicity putting these diamonds on movie stars, putting out all 223 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: of these ads with sappy copy. It really had a 224 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: profound effect and an entire generation had come of age 225 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: thinking diamond engagement rings were required, and as I mentioned 226 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: the top of the podcast, today seventy cent of American 227 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: brides are wearing a diamond engagement ring. And the idea 228 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: of framing it as forever was really important because that 229 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: also had an impact on controlling the resale market of diamonds, 230 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: because you're not going to eventually pawn that diamond off. No, 231 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: you keep it and you pass it down in your family, 232 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: because as a guy, you're going to go out and 233 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: spend that two months salary on a rock impressive enough 234 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: to keep in the family, right, which is such a 235 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a big con when you think 236 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: about it, because when people try to resell their diamonds, 237 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: you can never get anywhere close to the money that 238 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: you spent on it. Yeah, It's almost like buying a car. 239 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: As soon as you drive it off the lot, it's 240 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: value goes down. So engagement rings used car lots. I 241 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: hate to make that association, but it is kind of 242 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: there and just showing how savvy advertising and the beers 243 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: were in tandem in terms of making diamond engagement rings 244 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: a thing. They even were able to go into Japan 245 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: and do a similar thing. They did this with agency 246 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: J Walter Thompson in the sixties. Yeah, in nineteen sixty seven, 247 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: the year the ad campaign began, just under five percent 248 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: of engaged Japanese women received diamond engagement rings. It just 249 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: wasn't a thing. Um. But in Night one, about sixty 250 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: percent of Japanese brides were diamonds because they launched this 251 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: brilliant ad campaign. I mean, they had people in Western 252 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: clothes with Western cars, like the fanciest, most up to 253 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: date fashionable stuff in these ads, and you know, the 254 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: couples were just having a gay old time, um, and 255 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: it's like, well, don't you want to buy a diamond? 256 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: Don't you love her? Yeah, and don't you want to 257 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: kind of align with these Western values right on, get 258 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: get hit up, get with it, get a diamond. Um. 259 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: But once the Soviet Union at the time, moving into 260 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: Cold War era, finds diamonds as well, they start flooding 261 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: the market with a lot of smaller diamonds. So of 262 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: course the Bears in monopole form swoops in and it's like, 263 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna buy all your diamonds because we don't want 264 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: you to dilute the market. But then they have all 265 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: of these tiny diamonds. So what does the beers do 266 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: Because they already have a corner on the engagement ring 267 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: with all the big rock So what do they do? Guys? 268 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: You know what, you need to buy her an eternity band, 269 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: right once you've been married for a couple of years, 270 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 1: you need to buy her some more diamonds. Have had 271 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: an eternity band for your wife for your anniversary. In 272 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: other words, help us get rid of all these Soviet diamonds. Please, Yeah, 273 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: we have a we have too many teeny tiny diamonds. 274 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 1: That we don't know what to do with. So just 275 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: as as a perspective on how flush with cash to 276 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: Beers was getting around this time, by nineteen seventy nine, 277 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: in w Air had helped Beers expand its sale of 278 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: diamonds in the US to more than two point one 279 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: billion at the wholesale level, compared with just twenty three 280 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: million back in nineteen thirty nine. And I didn't know, Caroline, 281 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: that the Beers and this whole advertising initiative is the 282 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: reason why we think of those four seas of shopping 283 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: for diamonds of the cut, clarity, color, and carrot, because 284 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: all of that was engineered to steer us toward bigger, 285 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: more expensive rocks. Is your diamond flawless? Well? It should be. 286 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: He obviously doesn't love you if it's not well. One 287 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: thing that a lot of listeners might find surprising is 288 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: that the notion of the two months salary is relatively new. 289 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: It's not until the nineteen eighties that the ad agency 290 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: starts introducing this campaign that set that two months salary 291 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 1: benchmark with the charming slogan, isn't two months salary a 292 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: small price to pay for something that lasts forever? That 293 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: was my vomit noise response to that, Um yeah, forever, 294 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: forever making people feel like they should go into debt 295 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: for an engagement ring. So the answer to why do 296 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: women where diamond engagement rings? It's advertising. It's all advertising. 297 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit of contribution to Archduke Maximilian in 298 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: fourteen seventy seven, but he really didn't start a trend. 299 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: It was de Beers and n w Aer's. It was 300 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: de Beers created this international need for diamond rings solely 301 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: that they could stay in business. Yeah, although in more 302 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: recent years business has not been as great for de Beers. 303 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: They they've actually been bought out for the most part 304 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: by Anglo American PLC, which has taken a majority ownership 305 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: in them, and the Beers has now focused their energy 306 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: away from the mining so much into retail stores, which 307 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: in I think it was two thousand five they only 308 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: had one storefront and now they've diversified that. I think 309 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: they have more than any stores, which have been very successful. 310 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: Because even even with all the controversy in terms of 311 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: blood diamonds and knowing more about these economics, the shady 312 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: economics of the diamond trade and how they have been 313 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: devastating for a number of local mining economies. It's put 314 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: a dent in the diamond industry, but it's still so strong. 315 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: We still buy more diamonds than ever before, and the 316 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: diamond engagement ring is still the standard. Yeah. I mean 317 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: it's crazy when you think about it, that a diamond. 318 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: There's no reason for a diamond to be as expensive 319 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: as it is except for just the people who control them. Yeah. Yeah. 320 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: But there is one major area that advertising for diamonds 321 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: has failed, and that is when it comes to diamond 322 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: engagement rings for men. Yeah, that that is just not 323 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: caught on. I mean in the nineties, manufacturers and retail 324 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: jewelers really tried to launch this concept, but it just 325 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: didn't catch on. It was it was too much associated 326 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: with women in romance, I think, yeah, and it was 327 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: once those breach of promise to marry laws were dissolved, 328 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: it just became a thing for women and for women 329 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: in relationships. As a side note, in nine five, taking 330 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: a tip from second wave feminism, uh n w as 331 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: did launch a Women of the World, Raise your Right 332 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: Hand campaign featuring quote unquote bachelor girls. Divil says, what 333 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: does a career women buying their own diamonds, but that 334 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: didn't take off, although I want to say it was 335 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. I read a trend piece 336 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: in the New York Times about women buying themselves their 337 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: form of engagement ring. Well, I mean I remember those 338 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: ads from not too long ago. They, I mean, they 339 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: did relaunch the campaign to sell those right hand rings. 340 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: You know, once that you know, your your engagement ring 341 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: might be very simple and fancy, you know, but your 342 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: or your right hand ring was going to be something 343 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: kookie looking. Again, it's just advertising, yeah, it's it's creating 344 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: a demand. Yeah. But but back to engagement rings for men, 345 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: because speaking of trend stories, in around two thousand and ten, 346 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: some news outlets we're trying to say that this was 347 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: becoming a thing because if you go to Scandinavia and 348 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: Scandinavian listeners, could you please confirm this for us, Mom 349 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: stuff at Discovery dot com so you can email us. Supposedly, 350 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: male engagement rings are totally the norm over there, but 351 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: over here we have to do things like called the 352 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: man engagement rings. Yeah, come on, come on, stop calling them, 353 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: stop stop making words up. Um, but a handful of 354 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: jewelers really did jump on this trend, and The New 355 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: York Times reported on it in twos They talked to 356 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: British jeweler H. Samuel, who had launched a line of 357 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: rings that allowed women to propose to their men, because 358 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: obviously women before this time, we're not allowed to. So 359 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: thank thank you to H. Samuel, and then the jeweler 360 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: Novorre and Washington State offers rings for men ranging from 361 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: about four hundred dollars to nearly three thousand, and History 362 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: professor Stephanie coons Out at Evergreen State College explained it 363 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: thus lee She said, it's a logical extension of our 364 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: increasing rejection of the double standard of sexuality. She's saying 365 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: things like male infidelity is becoming less and less acceptable. 366 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: You know, women are more on an equal footing with men, 367 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: so why shouldn't they be able to propose to their 368 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: male partners? And that absolutely happens. And there was a 369 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: brides dot com survey recently which found that forty percent 370 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: of women's surveys said that they would buy their fiances 371 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: on engagement ring. But I don't think that that is 372 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: ever going to catch on, not because it's a bad 373 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: thing to do or a wrong thing to do. I 374 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: feel like it is so entrenched, um in our society 375 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: that it's I just don't think that male engagement rings 376 00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: are ever going to catch on. There are some couples 377 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: that do do it, and I'm not saying again, I'm 378 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: not saying that it's wrong, but these trend stories try 379 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: to make it a thing. But as long as you 380 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: call something a man engagement ring, no, no, I wouldn't 381 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: want a lady engagement ring. You know, it just it 382 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: doesn't it's it's an over engagement ring. Well, um, I 383 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: mean Barbara Rissman, who uh. She also talked to The 384 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: New York Times. She's the head of the University of 385 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: Illinois sociology department. She framed it as, you know, relationships 386 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: becoming more about partnerships. So both she and her fiance 387 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: wear engagement rings, but she was also married before. You know, 388 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: she's older, and she as part of the feminist movement 389 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: back in the seventies. She was like, I'm not wearing 390 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: an engagement ring. I don't want to be somebody's property, 391 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, like, I'm already marrying you, what more do 392 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: you want? But this time around, not only is she 393 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: wearing an engagement ring, but her fiance is as well, 394 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: and her reasoning for that, she says, the feminist movement 395 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: and I have matured. Yeah, I don't see progress as oh, well, 396 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: now women can just propose. Yeah, sure we can propose. 397 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: It's totally fine. But I would see progress as moving 398 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: this idea of engagement away from just popping a question 399 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: to maybe just being a more of a conversation, you know, 400 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: not to say that the romanticized idea of someone getting 401 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: down on one knee and it's my boyfriend listening right now. 402 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: But you know what I mean, I think that I 403 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: don't I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, 404 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: but I think that progress is more just moving to 405 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: the idea of a partnership. I don't see anything wrong 406 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: with with both people wearing a ring too, But that's 407 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's exactly what Jessica Valenti's reasoning was. In 408 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: her she wrote a column about her marriage and proposal experience, 409 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: the fact that she and her partner entered into it 410 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: equally that they decided to create their own traditions and 411 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: they caught so much flak family and friends for it. Yeah. 412 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: It's one of the founders of feministing dot com and 413 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: one of the leading voices in most public faces of 414 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: feminism today. When she publicly announced that she was getting married, 415 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: Valenti did receive a lot of criticism from some feminists too, 416 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: who said, you're buying into this traditionally patriarchal structure. Why 417 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: do you need to do that? And she suggested that 418 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: you can enter into it equally and make your own traditions. 419 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: But one thing that she didn't explicitly talk about was 420 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: this engagement ring thing. I don't think there was an 421 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: engagement ring involved, but um in the New York Times 422 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: wedding announcement, she did say or quoted her as saying 423 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: that the only purpose of an engagement ring is to 424 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,959 Speaker 1: show that you belong to someone and that your man 425 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: makes bank. And as far as the wedding bands that 426 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: they exchanged, they were just simple bands. But I don't 427 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: think there were any gems in them that they had 428 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: bought while on a trip to Rome, which that sounds like, yeah, 429 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: I want to go on a trip to Rome and 430 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: buy rings. Yeah. I also thought it was interesting that 431 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: this was a little data. This is from two thousand seven, 432 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: but a similarly leading second way feminist, Megan O'Rourke was 433 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: writing about this engagement ring issue in Slate, and she 434 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: talks about the fact that for diamonds, with the legacy 435 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: of the beers and the advertising, that it's really just 436 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: a sales gimmick, and also she calls it a big, 437 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: shiny no trespassing sign. But at the end of the 438 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: post she notes that, well, yeah, she wears an engagement ring. Well, 439 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I've I thought about this too, kind of 440 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: only vaguely, because I'm in no danger of getting engaged 441 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: anytime soon danger, But what I like an engagement ring? Sure, 442 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: but me personally like, I don't. I don't want you 443 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: going out and buying me a bajillion dollar ring, please. 444 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: I well, I I know people who have, instead of 445 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: being able to save money to buy a house or 446 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: pay off their loans or anything like that, they go 447 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: out and they buy this huge rock and it just 448 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: puts them even farther back for when they actually do 449 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: get married. It's like, I would rather you repurpose my 450 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: grandmother's ring or my mother's ring or something like that. 451 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: And I partially say that because my grandmother gave my 452 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: mother a ring that's like giant I'm making a giant 453 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: circle sign with my hands, but whatever, or go the 454 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: Puritan route. Give me a thimble, get a nice thimble. 455 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: I can't even sew, so the symbolism wouldn't even be 456 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: a thing from me. But they've got the got the 457 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: top off. I probably like that. I mean, I think 458 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: it's I think it's funny. Or maybe one of those 459 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: Victorian era maybe a hair he could use to hair 460 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: to weave a ring. I could probably just go to 461 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: my shower drain and we've a ring out of that. Anyway, 462 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: no hair ring, Okay, I'm just I'm just saying. Well, 463 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: speaking of gender, there have been some studies on gender 464 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: roles and engagement rings. There was one called with This 465 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: Ring I v Wed Relating gender roles and love styles 466 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: to attitudes towards engagement rings and Weddings by Shirley m 467 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: Ogletree that came out in Gender Issues in and she 468 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: basically just surveyed a bunch of college students about this, 469 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: and the main takeaway from the study was that women 470 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: in fact, do not care about getting big, old bling 471 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: rings and having massive weddings more so than men. Men 472 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: and women were pretty much equally invested in the notion 473 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: of an engagement ring, and also the relative fanciness of 474 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: said rings. UM. But she pointed out there were two groups, 475 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: the the group with the gender stereotypical attitudes and the 476 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: gender transcendence group, which I just think sounds so lovely. Uh, 477 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: it sounds like there should be clouds um their their attitude, 478 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: the gender transcendence attitude with significantly uh correlated with the 479 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: idea that relationships should be more egalitarian, and there there 480 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: was a let less of a desire there for the 481 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: expensive engagement rings or weddings, whereas um college students that 482 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: she surveyed who had those more gender stereotypical attitudes regarding 483 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: male and female roles did both male and female tend 484 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: to want a more traditional, expensive wedding and engagement. Now 485 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: there's also another study examining the amount of money spent 486 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: on engagement rings by men is also very heteronormative for 487 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: the moment um, and they compared it to the age 488 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: and income of the women and they found that younger 489 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: women received more expensive rings also women with higher income, 490 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: which conformed to predictions derived from sexual selection theory, because 491 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: the idea is that younger women will get bigger rings 492 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: because they cost more because their worth In quotes is 493 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: higher because since they're younger, they are more fertile, et cetera. 494 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: But all of this said, the greatest predictor of the 495 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: price of an engagement ring wasn't so much relative to 496 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: the female, but more how much the guy made. The 497 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: more money he made, the bigger the ring that he bought. Which, 498 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: again this still though ties into that idea of well, 499 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: is an engagement ring buying a huge engagement ring so 500 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: much a symbol of one's love or a symbol of 501 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: a guy's income, does it? Is it again just a 502 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: bragging right? Not only that? Ay, this is this is 503 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: his gal, especially if he's not wearing a ring. Hey, 504 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: this is uh my betrothed. Don't don't even look, but 505 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: don't touch uh and look at how much I spent 506 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: on their ring. So he's like twice raised up on that. 507 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: So he could be putting his bank account on display, 508 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: or he could us be getting what he thinks he 509 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: needs to get for the fiance. Yeah, and we're talking 510 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: in very symbolic terms. You know, I don't I don't 511 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: think that that men are are even trying to parade 512 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: women around like cattle. But via going to Tiffany. But 513 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: this is why that that symbolism in the history of 514 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: it is why engagement rings are often met with disapproval 515 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: by by feminists. Well, I do look forward you mentioned, Uh, 516 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: you know, this is all very heteronormative for the moment. 517 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: I did try to look up stuff on engagement rings 518 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: among gay couples, but really there's nothing out there except 519 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: maybe tongue in cheek etiquette guides for who should propose 520 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: to whom? Should we both wear rings? Should only one 521 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: of us wear rings? That is something that I would 522 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: like to hear from listeners, you know, from from gay 523 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: and lesbian couples out there, like who have gotten engaged? 524 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: Gotten married? What did you decide to do? Did you 525 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: both wear rings? There're only one person wear rings? Because, um, 526 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: some of the etiquette out there is like, hey, do 527 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: whatever you want. Um. Gawker's only warning for men was 528 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: a diamond and crusted band on top of a wedding 529 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: ring is going to make you look like Liberaci. So 530 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: I actually want to hear from listeners about what what 531 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: they have done. Yeah. Michelle Court, who was the editor 532 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: of Here Comes the Bride, Reflections on Lesbian Love and Marriage, 533 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: said that lesbians have long worn matching rings. So they 534 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: might do that. But then again, all of it kind 535 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: of ends with make up your own traditions, which I 536 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: think is great that same sex couples have more of 537 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: a blank slate to create their own traditions without as 538 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: in the case of someone like Jessica Valnni getting a 539 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: lot of flak from family and friends saying you're not 540 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: where's the but you're you know. So, we want to 541 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: hear though from couples now about this engagement ring issue 542 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: because there is a not so bright history as to 543 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: why we wear diamond engagement rings. Guys, I want to 544 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: know about this issue of men wearing engagement rings too. 545 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: Would you wear one? Do you think that it's a 546 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: bit imbalanced that it's women who receive the engagement ring, 547 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: the idea that we should spend two months salary on 548 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: a ring, which again that is only a product of advertising. 549 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: Let us know all of your thoughts, mom se at 550 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: discovery dot com is where you can send them. And 551 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: we didn't even get into, you know, the Facebook photos 552 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: of girls showing off their rings and would you do that? 553 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: I'd probably do it. I'm very conflicted. Help me sort 554 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: out my my feelings about engagement rings by writing to 555 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: me and Caroline. Moms have a Discovery dot com. You 556 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: can also find us on Facebook and tweet us at 557 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast. And now back to our lives, all right, Christen, 558 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: I have one here from Isaiah. Isaiah writes, as a 559 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: lover of genre fiction, I found e readers and eye 560 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: books of boone for a reason that relates to one 561 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: of your recent podcast I find the covers of genre 562 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: fiction embarrassing. Specifically, I enjoy sci fi, fantasy, and urban fantasy. 563 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: Sci fi and fantasy often have aggressively masculine covers, biceps 564 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: and barely covered boobs abound, and urban fantasy, often written 565 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: by women, have romancy covers. Think man with floppy hair, 566 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: artistic stubble what is artistic stubble? And boyish features looking pensive. 567 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: Now I can enjoy my vampires, wizards and ray guns 568 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: without having to explain to every passer by No, the 569 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: writing is actually really good, So thank you well. I've 570 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: got an email here from d also about our episode 571 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: on judging books by their covers. She writes, um I 572 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: have attendant, an annual event held by DC area book 573 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: clubs which feature African American authors. Book covers have come 574 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: up often as a topic of conversation. The authors have 575 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: mentioned the fact that they had very little say on 576 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 1: the design of their covers. The authors that Right Romance 577 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: had mentioned that they're publishers do not want to feature 578 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: people on the cover so that the book is not 579 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: pigeonholed into the African American Authors section of the bookstore 580 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: or even worse, Urban Romance. Authors that have attained a 581 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: level of success that would normally allow their photo to 582 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: be placed in the back of the book jacket or 583 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: told that this will decrease book sales. And also authors 584 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: with stereotypically African American names are encouraged to adopt a 585 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: pseudonym or to use an initial instead of their given name. 586 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: Several of the more commercially successful authors have rereleased their 587 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: early work with their given names instead of studentym. And 588 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: there are also mixed feelings within this community. Is so 589 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: whether an African American Authors sections should exist at your 590 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 1: local Barnes and Noble? Does this section do more harm 591 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: than good? Just some food for your literary thoughts, Yes, 592 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: some food indeed. Um, that was something that we did 593 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: not bring up, which is a race and ethnicity, and 594 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: that was something when we were researching that issue of 595 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: gender and authors and book covers and book marketing. That 596 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,959 Speaker 1: was a conversation that came up saying, hey, yeah, would 597 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,959 Speaker 1: this whole thing about women, but you know, it's even 598 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: worse issues for writers of color. So um, thanks so 599 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: much D for bringing that up, because it's definitely an 600 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: area that needs to be addressed. And if you have 601 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: an area that needs to be addressed with us, you 602 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: can write us a mom Stuff Discovery dot com. You 603 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: can write us over on Facebook as well, follow us 604 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: on Twitter, mom Stuff podcast, and on tumbler Stuff Mom 605 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot tumbler dot com, and as always, 606 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: you can watch us four times a week over on YouTube. 607 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: It's YouTube dot com, slash stuff Mom Never Told You, 608 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: and don't forget to you. Subscribe for more on this 609 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Doesn't How Stuff Works dot 610 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: com