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Speaker 1: See you there, Sideways up the I I don't know
Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer to.
Speaker 1: Hey there everybody, and welcome again to another episode of
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I am Steve as always joined by Joe,
Speaker 1: who's about to sneeze once again. We have another mystery
Speaker 1: this week. Uh and as per normal, this is a
Speaker 1: listener suggestion. This was suggested by Shelley quite a while back.
Speaker 1: And today what we're gonna be talking about is an
Speaker 1: unsolved mystery that is mined from the show of the
Speaker 1: very same name, Unsolved Mysteries. Yeah, an episode on these two.
Speaker 1: They did, they did. And I've actually I've been slowly
Speaker 1: researching this story for several months now, as you too
Speaker 1: well know. And while I haven't gotten every answer or
Speaker 1: I feel like we've kind of pinned down a few
Speaker 1: things that were a little more unresolved. So that's always
Speaker 1: good to know. What we're gonna talk about today is
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the deaths of and I really
Speaker 1: hope I'm pronouncing this right, and I apologize if I'm
Speaker 1: not for the last names here, but they are Arnold
Speaker 1: Arschambau and Ruby Brugier. At the time of their deaths
Speaker 1: in Arnold was twenty years old and Ruby was nineteen,
Speaker 1: and they both lived in Lake Andy's South Dakota, which
Speaker 1: is inside the borders of the Yankton Sioux Reservation and
Speaker 1: to clarify for anybody who may not quite have understood
Speaker 1: that the state of South Dakota has nine different reservations
Speaker 1: on it and they're obviously there's towns inside of those reservations.
Speaker 1: This particular town, Lake Andy's, and the lake it's named
Speaker 1: after is inside of the Yanktin Reservation. That's why that's
Speaker 1: that way. That's kind of an interesting jurisdictional patchwork in there. Actually,
Speaker 1: Oh buddy, we're gonna talk about the jurisdictional stuff because
Speaker 1: it gets it gets kind of muddy. But the you know,
Speaker 1: the reservation itself is pretty big. It's what sixty five
Speaker 1: square miles, which is just over sevent square kilometers, takes
Speaker 1: up like six of the county that it's in. So
Speaker 1: it's a big place and the county is in it's
Speaker 1: kind of large to actually, Yeah, it's Charles Mix County
Speaker 1: on the border with what Nebraska, the south end of
Speaker 1: the south south of state. Yeah, it doesn't run right
Speaker 1: up to the border. Yeah. So talking about Arnold and Ruby, so,
Speaker 1: like I said, they lived in Lake Andies as much
Speaker 1: as I can tell, and I'll be honest in that
Speaker 1: I do not know if they were members of the
Speaker 1: tribe or simply residents of the town. I've never really
Speaker 1: seen a whole lot said to that. It's sorry to
Speaker 1: tell about their pictures and their names, but you know,
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of Indians have just regular, ordinary
Speaker 1: white sounding names, and and frankly, I they look kind
Speaker 1: of white, especially at Archie Arnold Arnold, it's Arnold, And
Speaker 1: I made that mistake more than once. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. And I while it does make
Speaker 1: a bit of a difference at one point in her story,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make a whole lot of difference who worried
Speaker 1: about it. But there are a lot of white settlers
Speaker 1: in that area, so they're probably just white folks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, I'm not going to make a
Speaker 1: guess because I just I can't tell, and it's not
Speaker 1: relevant to the mystery itself so much so. The mystery
Speaker 1: itself is that on the night of December twelve, Arnold
Speaker 1: and Ruby and Ruby's cousin, who was seventeen at the time.
Speaker 1: Her name was Tracy Dion, they were driving in the area.
Speaker 1: They were just south of Lake Andy's and Arnold was driving,
Speaker 1: and I believe that Ruby was in the passenger seat,
Speaker 1: which puts Tracy in the and what happens is they're
Speaker 1: they're driving in the area. Oh, it should mention that
Speaker 1: it's late at night apparently, and they had been out
Speaker 1: doing a little bit of drinking because they were all
Speaker 1: under age. Um, and Tracy is the one who later
Speaker 1: admitted that they had been they'd gone out and I
Speaker 1: don't know how much they'd had to drink, but they've
Speaker 1: been drinking. My understanding, there are kind of like three
Speaker 1: things to do in that area when you're that age
Speaker 1: and drink whiskey and what I was going to say,
Speaker 1: it's drink smoke and have sex. Just driving around the countryside.
Speaker 1: That's been a teenager. Yeah, so yeah, they were. They
Speaker 1: were traveling north on Avenue, correct, correct, So so yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's that's perfect because they're heading north on three
Speaker 1: third Avenue. Eighty third Avenue intersects US Highway eighteen and
Speaker 1: it's a T junction, so that means three three ends
Speaker 1: because the highway is going east to west at that point.
Speaker 1: And according to Tracy, it was icy out and when
Speaker 1: they pulled up to the intersection, Arnold said there were
Speaker 1: no cars coming and then the next thing she knew,
Speaker 1: the car was upside down according and so this is
Speaker 1: her statement that you see all over the internet. So
Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and read it because it kind of
Speaker 1: helps illustrate a little bit of what happened in the car. Says,
Speaker 1: I was upside down on the ditch and Ruby and
Speaker 1: I was in the car. You know, Arnold wasn't in
Speaker 1: the car. I don't know where he was. Ruby was crying.
Speaker 1: She was saying, oh my god, oh my god. She
Speaker 1: just kept hitting the car. The next thing I know,
Speaker 1: the door it was open a little ways and she
Speaker 1: had enough room to then slide out and then so
Speaker 1: I was going to reach over and then just like that,
Speaker 1: the door went shut. So that's her statement of what
Speaker 1: she remembers immediately after the crash. At this point, apparently
Speaker 1: Tracy is the only one in the car, and I'm
Speaker 1: guessing must not have been able to free herself from
Speaker 1: the car based on the events that are about to happen. Eventually,
Speaker 1: somebody does come by and sees the car and helps
Speaker 1: her out. It's at that point that she realizes that
Speaker 1: Arnold and Ruby are nowhere to be found. They should
Speaker 1: have been there and they aren't. And I don't know
Speaker 1: how much time passed between Ruby getting out of the
Speaker 1: car and help rite. I had never found that out
Speaker 1: of either. I never did, I would assume given that
Speaker 1: she didn't say, And I was stuck in that car
Speaker 1: for you know, what must have been hours without so
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like that long, because it seems like
Speaker 1: she would have mentioned it was weird that they w
Speaker 1: weren't coming back and helping me out. That would be
Speaker 1: part of the lore if it seemed like it was
Speaker 1: a significant amount of time. But that's just my own
Speaker 1: interpretation of it. Yeah, and I and I don't know
Speaker 1: how heavily traffic that's I should have done, Like in
Speaker 1: looked up traffic counts on Highway eight team, which is
Speaker 1: what they were right off the side of. But it's
Speaker 1: it's it's really though on the south side of the lake,
Speaker 1: So you would think they'd be a fair amount of
Speaker 1: traffic on it. Now, depending on the time of night,
Speaker 1: it may not be that much traffic. But that's a
Speaker 1: good point. But yeah, obviously, no surprise. The local sheriff's
Speaker 1: department gets in all then they come out to the
Speaker 1: scene to figure out what's going on. The next morning,
Speaker 1: they walk up and down the road. They're looking around
Speaker 1: that area trying to find Arnold and Ruby. The thinking
Speaker 1: at the time was that they in a state of
Speaker 1: shock and probably helped with a little bit of booze.
Speaker 1: They decided that the best course of action was to
Speaker 1: just flee the scene so that they didn't get in
Speaker 1: trouble for drinking illegally, and after which they succumbed to
Speaker 1: the cold. Because it's December twelve, it's in South Dakota
Speaker 1: that year. At that time, the temperatures plus or minus
Speaker 1: were in the single digits, so it is brigging cold.
Speaker 1: But but they didn't find any sign of a couple,
Speaker 1: and just as a sign of how cold it was,
Speaker 1: apparently when you read the descriptions, it's the car came
Speaker 1: to rest in a ditch on the ice. The ice
Speaker 1: was thick enough to support the weight of the vehicle,
Speaker 1: so that that's just in indicator of how how fen solid. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: although the I'm not sure which dish, because there's a
Speaker 1: ditch and there's a swale. The ditch is very shallow
Speaker 1: and then the swale is deeper. The swale drains into
Speaker 1: the legs. One of the big questions this whole thing
Speaker 1: is exactly where where it is, and we're going to
Speaker 1: get into that when we get into a little more
Speaker 1: of the details later on. Here. They not take pictures.
Speaker 1: I can't find any pictures. No. The oly, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is what's infuriating. I love that this was on Unsolved Mysteries.
Speaker 1: I hate that this was on Unsolved Mysteries. All of
Speaker 1: the photos are from the recreation. I think, oh, look,
Speaker 1: that's a no, no, that's totally That might as well
Speaker 1: be Robert Stack in the background right there, because that's
Speaker 1: what you know that there's websites out there. They're talking
Speaker 1: about this very one and they had those photos on
Speaker 1: there as a real Oh yeah, those are the real photos.
Speaker 1: So we run into that a lot with that show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's the it's the it's the the beauty and
Speaker 1: the pain all at the same time. Okay, their car
Speaker 1: was supported by ice. There was no sign of them anywhere,
Speaker 1: no sign of them at all, according to the reporting
Speaker 1: the local law enforcement. They keep looking for them and
Speaker 1: was there. Sorry to interrupt, but is this a stretch
Speaker 1: of road that's pretty barren of people or their houses
Speaker 1: or there's not a whole lot of houses r out there.
Speaker 1: It's farms and fields. A couple of miles away is town.
Speaker 1: They worked very far away from the town. Back to
Speaker 1: the town was not even a couple of miles away.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I think the kind of sheriff's office,
Speaker 1: which is in Lake Andy'es is like six tenths of
Speaker 1: a mile to the west of where they crashed. Something
Speaker 1: like that. It's what it really easy for them to watch.
Speaker 1: So it's not as if they could have wandered away
Speaker 1: and not found some place to seek shelter. And that's
Speaker 1: what everybody's thinking is that they wandered away, they sought
Speaker 1: shelters somewhere, and now they're hiding and eventually they're gonna
Speaker 1: come forward, and we're looking for or Um. But there
Speaker 1: there was no sign of them. And when the sheriff's
Speaker 1: department was looking around there all of the stuff that
Speaker 1: I've read, they said they didn't see any signs of
Speaker 1: where the ice had been broken to indicate somebody had
Speaker 1: fallen through. None of that is is present. So it's
Speaker 1: it's literally, as my wife would say, poof they disappeared. Basically,
Speaker 1: maybe that's what happened. Yeah, but but so okay, so
Speaker 1: let's now let's talk about the whole thing that you
Speaker 1: were saying with the swales and the ditches. So for geography,
Speaker 1: for anybody who isn't looking at a map, like we said,
Speaker 1: Highway eighteen runs east west, three eighty third runs north
Speaker 1: south and tease into the highway. That's what it looks like.
Speaker 1: On the east side of the of three third, there's
Speaker 1: really just not much there. It's not much of a
Speaker 1: dip at all. On the west side, so this is
Speaker 1: south of eighteen. Between eighteen and three and e third
Speaker 1: there is a swale or what did you call it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's not really a ditch. It's with a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff growing in it, but it looks like it
Speaker 1: could be at its deepest point maybe four or five
Speaker 1: ft deep, but that's way off. It hard to tell
Speaker 1: because of all the vegetable men are growing. But then
Speaker 1: it gets deeper as it goes north. Then it goes
Speaker 1: underneath Highway eight team. So there there is a culvert
Speaker 1: s it's a culvert or a mini bridge something, which
Speaker 1: by the way, it looks like according to the I
Speaker 1: love going through the maps and going through the history,
Speaker 1: and you can see back in I think it was
Speaker 1: the early two thousands they redid that culvert because it's
Speaker 1: captured on the satellite view. But there's a culvert because
Speaker 1: Lake Andy's is several hundred feet north of the highway.
Speaker 1: It's right there, and when the water level gets high,
Speaker 1: it will back up to that culvert and filled swale.
Speaker 1: And this north of high of the highway itself is
Speaker 1: a walking trail, which Joe has helped me understand, used
Speaker 1: to apparently be an old railroad track, used to be
Speaker 1: right away for railroad. And and that's got a footbridge
Speaker 1: that crosses over that inlet that goes and swale. So
Speaker 1: the north side, the north west side, from that junction
Speaker 1: of the two roads is where it starts to get deep.
Speaker 1: But I don't know if when they were looking for him,
Speaker 1: whether they walked out onto the ice or for fear
Speaker 1: of falling in they just did it from the bank,
Speaker 1: but from the intersection itself, And we don't know where
Speaker 1: the car was right, We don't know exactly where the car.
Speaker 1: I'm going, Okay, I'm going to make a giant presumption
Speaker 1: and say that they flipped just off of the north
Speaker 1: side of that intersection. That's an easy thing to say.
Speaker 1: So they were in the swale, is what we're saying.
Speaker 1: The car was another car would have been the east
Speaker 1: of the sale would be well, know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: or the ditch in between the walking trail and the
Speaker 1: road is where I'm saying it w Yeah that's is
Speaker 1: that what you're saying? Yeah? Okay, okay, the same thing.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and so in between to the north of eighteen.
Speaker 1: This is getting confusing, But there is a shallow, very shallow,
Speaker 1: shallow ditch parallel to the road, and then and then
Speaker 1: it right angles is the swale. So again it's confusing
Speaker 1: as to look at the area. Yeah, I mean really
Speaker 1: and three eighty third Avenue South Dakota Lake, Andy's you'll
Speaker 1: zoom right into it and you can't get it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I For me, I'm just continuing to assume
Speaker 1: that it was the swale or something deeper because there
Speaker 1: was the prevention of being able to get out of
Speaker 1: the car, is I guess my assumption. But if they
Speaker 1: flipped the car, they guessing they didn't have a new car,
Speaker 1: probably a little bit of crumpling going on. I mean,
Speaker 1: you've been in a car accident. It's hard to open
Speaker 1: the door sometimes and I'm guessing here, but I don't
Speaker 1: know what I do I have to guess is that
Speaker 1: because of the fact that the lake the water level
Speaker 1: can rise. I'm guessing that the ice from the water
Speaker 1: from the lake had backed up and that whole area
Speaker 1: there was frozen at that point. So at this point
Speaker 1: we've got to missing people, missing young people just poof
Speaker 1: into thin air, into thin air the aliens. Yep. So
Speaker 1: the deputies, they've they've wandered up and down this chunk
Speaker 1: of roads several times. The sheriff at the time said
Speaker 1: he had been up and down at multiple times and
Speaker 1: they didn't find anything. That's the other thing I never
Speaker 1: found in the story was they never found any footprints.
Speaker 1: Did there nothing? No? No, I don't believe that it
Speaker 1: was I think that it was frozen, but I don't
Speaker 1: believe it was snowing. But there's nothing to say that
Speaker 1: they saw footprints. But then again, if it is five
Speaker 1: degrees and it's not snowing, that snow may likely have
Speaker 1: frozen solid, which wouldn't leave you a whole lot of footprints.
Speaker 1: Walking on ice doesn't leave a whole lot of footprints either. Well,
Speaker 1: is that yeah, So maybe they were on ice the
Speaker 1: whole time. Maybe they didn't walk on the snow or
Speaker 1: maybe the wind just blew the snow around. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I really this is this is this is
Speaker 1: the kind of story that I really dig and I
Speaker 1: really despise because there's so many oh like it's not there.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I can't tell you. But we've got
Speaker 1: these two people. They've seemed to have just evaporated into
Speaker 1: thin air. And that's that's basically the end of the
Speaker 1: story for about three months. Because then if we fast
Speaker 1: forward to March of someone driving along Highway eighteen near
Speaker 1: that intersection of three third Avenue saw what they thought
Speaker 1: might have been somebody in the ditch, and they called
Speaker 1: the police. Local Sheriff's department came out and lo and behold,
Speaker 1: they discovered Ruby's decomposing body in the ditch or swale,
Speaker 1: whichever it was. I don't know which it was. But
Speaker 1: the point is is that because it had been warming
Speaker 1: up its March, she was decomposing. Her body was not
Speaker 1: in good shape. She was about seventy five to a
Speaker 1: hundred feet away from the scene of the accident. That
Speaker 1: equates tots. She was on the just up off of
Speaker 1: the edge in the so still in the water is
Speaker 1: what I understand, figuring that you know, Arnold's got to
Speaker 1: be close by. They start searching that area, and one
Speaker 1: of the things that I don't quite understand is they decided, well,
Speaker 1: he's not anywhere that we can see, so we're going
Speaker 1: to pump the water out. And I don't know how
Speaker 1: they could have done that if it was the the
Speaker 1: outlet that went into the lake. That's why I still
Speaker 1: have a question of exactly where they went in. But
Speaker 1: they pumped water out of whether it was the swale
Speaker 1: or the ditch they got water out? How How how
Speaker 1: deep did we say the ditch was? We don't know
Speaker 1: for sure because I can't tell. I'm guessing that the
Speaker 1: one that does on the south side is maybe five
Speaker 1: ft deep. That's a gas deep. As you get towards
Speaker 1: the let, it gets deeper. If you go on Google
Speaker 1: Maps or some great photos that are actually GEO tagged
Speaker 1: to that location, they give a little more information and
Speaker 1: the water is higher than I'm just thinking about the
Speaker 1: weirdness about to talk about. I got you, I got you.
Speaker 1: They pump out the water lo and behold, they find
Speaker 1: Arnold's body. He is less than twenty feet away from her.
Speaker 1: He is in relatively good condition, except well, his body
Speaker 1: was in good condition other than the fact that it
Speaker 1: was no longer alive. Thank you for that clarification. Um
Speaker 1: And I see a lot of people call this out,
Speaker 1: and I'm not surprised by that because if he is
Speaker 1: and the thing you also see called that is that
Speaker 1: he wasn't frozen to the ground. But if he was
Speaker 1: suspended in water, that makes sense. It also makes sense
Speaker 1: why he was so well preserved. If he's in freezing
Speaker 1: cold water, why his body would not yet have started
Speaker 1: to really decompose, unlike rubies at me, I'm not rolling
Speaker 1: my eyes. I just think I kind of agree with
Speaker 1: the whole idea of his body being perfectly suspended in
Speaker 1: you know, what's likely less than the height of his body,
Speaker 1: this amount of water, that he's just somehow floating in
Speaker 1: the middle of this, not touching the ground, but not
Speaker 1: so high that they could have found him before. And
Speaker 1: just like that to me poses a really big problem
Speaker 1: because they searched the area pretty well. They did. If
Speaker 1: if he had been in there, I mean, presumably it
Speaker 1: was frozen solid. We've been in there, they should have
Speaker 1: been able to see. But we'll talk about that in
Speaker 1: a minute. Now, there's all sorts of possibilities. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that maybe that's better for the theories. I
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, yeah, let's let's hold on because there's
Speaker 1: there's a few more because we're about to go into
Speaker 1: some weirdo Ville stuff here, which is going to be
Speaker 1: fun times, because it seems like an open and shut
Speaker 1: case of well, they they went into the ice, and
Speaker 1: they went into the water, and that's why nobody could
Speaker 1: find him. It's it seems on the outside, very very easily,
Speaker 1: that's the answer, except that there are things that didn't
Speaker 1: work when or didn't match up. When they were got
Speaker 1: there and they found her body and they were then
Speaker 1: combing the area again, they find a lock of Ruby's
Speaker 1: hair on the side of the road, which they say
Speaker 1: couldn't have been there that whole time. I don't understand
Speaker 1: why it couldn't have come off of her body once
Speaker 1: it was exposed to the elements, but I'll set that aside.
Speaker 1: You mean that it would have like fallen off her
Speaker 1: body and blown over there, Yes, as in her skin
Speaker 1: is decomposing, the hair brakes free and blows away, which
Speaker 1: is kind of gross. I know, it's no, it's true though. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that people have said, as
Speaker 1: you say, is that why was it there? But yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have been that. So she appeared to be
Speaker 1: wearing the same clothes that she had the night she disappeared,
Speaker 1: but her glasses and her shoes are missing, and the
Speaker 1: decomposition of her body was bad enough that they had
Speaker 1: to I d her with a tattoo, So it's not
Speaker 1: as if they could tell by her face. If that
Speaker 1: gives you kind of an idea, that's why I'm saying
Speaker 1: I could see maybe something breaking frost, But I also
Speaker 1: think that's a significant amount of decomposition for his body
Speaker 1: to be like, but he's completely underwater and cold water,
Speaker 1: colder water. I gotta go a tattoo, you know, so
Speaker 1: we can identify you. Ye, you know, you should actually
Speaker 1: get a tattoo that just says I'm Joe identified as Joe. Um. Okay.
Speaker 1: So so let's move into the other weird other questions,
Speaker 1: into the strange area that we're at here, which is
Speaker 1: it appears there's some questions whether the clothes that Arnold
Speaker 1: were was wearing when his body was recovered were the
Speaker 1: same ones that he had been wearing on the night
Speaker 1: that he had disappeared. The investigators, like I said, I
Speaker 1: felt it was weird that he was in good condition.
Speaker 1: I disagree with that. But what they also found is
Speaker 1: they found keys in his pocket, which they say they
Speaker 1: couldn't match up or confirm belonged to him. I'm making
Speaker 1: a giant, giant assumption here that they say that because
Speaker 1: it was two a car key and two house keys.
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming what they're saying is that they took
Speaker 1: those keys and they tried it on his house and
Speaker 1: his car and it didn't work. But I can't say
Speaker 1: that with any certainty. Well, the car situation, but the
Speaker 1: house maybe. I don't know. It's hard. It's hard to
Speaker 1: say because, like you know, I have a key right
Speaker 1: now in my key ring that I don't know. I
Speaker 1: have actually no idea what it goes to. Well, but
Speaker 1: I mean, if if all the is on that ring
Speaker 1: is three keys, right, a car key and two house keys,
Speaker 1: it should be pretty easy to figure out where he
Speaker 1: would go that he would have that, or at least
Speaker 1: one of those two keys should fit his house. And
Speaker 1: I tried to find some of that out. I ran
Speaker 1: into a bit of a dead end, which we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about. Okay, the other thing here before we
Speaker 1: get before we get too much farther along, is that
Speaker 1: am using air quotes here. Reportedly there was a dark
Speaker 1: blazer style vehicle scene near where her body was found
Speaker 1: just prior to its discovery, which you know, of course
Speaker 1: then somebody's implying that she was dumped. It's really what
Speaker 1: that's boiling down to. Well, I mean, or that was
Speaker 1: the person who or who saw it and didn't call
Speaker 1: it in or even worse, if you stick at that thing,
Speaker 1: they probably was like a dark pickout truck with two
Speaker 1: guys and a scene near the same scene, not you know,
Speaker 1: not too long before or after. There was also probably
Speaker 1: a minivans scene near the scene that was probably also
Speaker 1: a priest senior the scene. Yeah, unless it was the
Speaker 1: time traffic. Yeah, those exist you're talking about. Apparently they
Speaker 1: will as we're still in Weirdoville here. The medical examiner
Speaker 1: who looked at the bodies said that they didn't die
Speaker 1: from drowning. They died from exposure, which totally totally drives
Speaker 1: a nail into this whole thing we've been talking about
Speaker 1: of them falling through the ice and drownding. We're gonna
Speaker 1: talk some more about that in a bit, because there's
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff there. But it's weird that
Speaker 1: two people found in the ditch in the water around
Speaker 1: the ice died from exposure and not drowning, and weren't
Speaker 1: found in the extensive searches of that area initially. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: days after they looked for quite a while. The final
Speaker 1: thing that I want to talk about here is that
Speaker 1: there was a sighting of Arnold, because there's always a sighting,
Speaker 1: as Elvis has proven, somebody always sees you. Arnold was
Speaker 1: seen at a New Year's Eve party with three other people,
Speaker 1: so that would have been about three weeks after he disappeared.
Speaker 1: The person who's made this claim was subjected to a
Speaker 1: polygraph and passed it, though I think we've talked at
Speaker 1: nauseum about polygraphs and how unreliable they are. That and
Speaker 1: this person saw Arnold with three other people within the
Speaker 1: company of three other people against did this person know
Speaker 1: any of those three people? Apparently not. That's that. That
Speaker 1: is what that is the only other thing that I
Speaker 1: want to talk about that is kind of strange about
Speaker 1: the case. Uh And and then we'll put it to
Speaker 1: bed is that in the reading, you will across the
Speaker 1: fact that this case was initially handled by the Charles
Speaker 1: Mixed Sheriff's depart County Sheriff's Department, and then at one
Speaker 1: point it suddenly went over to the FBI, and then
Speaker 1: it's deemed a closed case in and that's the end
Speaker 1: of that. It doesn't sound like the FBI really took
Speaker 1: a huge interest anyway. Oh yeah, yeah, And and that's
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that I randomly decided was
Speaker 1: a rabbit hole to go down, and we're gonna be
Speaker 1: talking about that. So there's a there's the whole bunch
Speaker 1: of strange details that we know. We know that he
Speaker 1: she shows up decomposed, wearing the same clothes but missing
Speaker 1: a few articles. He shows up without any obvious signs
Speaker 1: of major decomposition, and questionably whether he's wearing the same
Speaker 1: clothes as well as having a few items or an
Speaker 1: item that doesn't match up, and this sighting of him
Speaker 1: later on, and they died from exposure, not drownding. So
Speaker 1: this is there's a whole bunch of things in here
Speaker 1: that this is why I got into this case initially
Speaker 1: because it just doesn't added up to me. Anyway, all right, Now,
Speaker 1: as we've talked about here, initially, we're not exactly positive
Speaker 1: of where the car flipped, so which side of the
Speaker 1: ditch or the road it was on, which makes it
Speaker 1: kind of tough to determine exactly where the bodies were
Speaker 1: found though, Joe, So in the reading, it always says
Speaker 1: they were found between Highway eighteen and the railroad tracks.
Speaker 1: And I had never figured out where the railroad tracks.
Speaker 1: But that's what you how did you figure that out? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean there was there were no railroad tracks anywhere
Speaker 1: near the road, right, Yeah, there weren't. But but if
Speaker 1: you get on the street view and you look, there's
Speaker 1: a footpath to the north of the road, and the
Speaker 1: bridge across the swale as a freaking railroad bridge. We've
Speaker 1: all seen railroad tracks. We know what railroad bridges look like.
Speaker 1: Its bridge. And we live in an area around here
Speaker 1: where at least at least several highway former excuse me,
Speaker 1: not highways, former railway right of ways have been turned
Speaker 1: into footpaths, bicycle path Yeah, and that's what path that
Speaker 1: paralleled the highway? Well, that description for that must be
Speaker 1: where the railroad tracks were. Yeah, So there you go.
Speaker 1: So that's why I put the car on the north
Speaker 1: side of Highway eighteen. Well that that that makes total
Speaker 1: sense to me. I was going to call the parks Department,
Speaker 1: and then I literally spaced it out because I figured
Speaker 1: they were responsible for maintaining it, but then spaced out
Speaker 1: calling them. But taking a big page from Joe's book,
Speaker 1: this week, I actually did pick up the phone and
Speaker 1: call at least one person who was none too happy
Speaker 1: to talk to me. Our revenue hard at work. They
Speaker 1: rarely are happy to talk to you. I noticed that.
Speaker 1: So I called the Charles Mix County Sheriff's Department and
Speaker 1: I asked somebody to talk to you about this case,
Speaker 1: and they immediately transferred me to the sheriff himself. That
Speaker 1: would be sheriff failure. Follower failure. Oh sorry, sir, But
Speaker 1: the point is he he did confirm some details about
Speaker 1: the case, though he wasn't all that excited to share
Speaker 1: much because he didn't. He said his reasoning for not
Speaker 1: wanting to share a whole lot was that he hadn't
Speaker 1: read on the file in a long time. He's been
Speaker 1: shared for like six or seven years in this case
Speaker 1: obviously predates him. What he did confirm for me was
Speaker 1: obviously the intersection of where the the accident happened. One
Speaker 1: of my initial questions was, I wanted to know if
Speaker 1: a blood alcohol was done on the bodies, because we've
Speaker 1: talked about that before. Is that can indicate if they
Speaker 1: had elevated levels of alcohol when they died, or if
Speaker 1: the body had burned that off prior to their death.
Speaker 1: But he wouldn't. He wouldn't speak to that. That's okay. Finally,
Speaker 1: empties in the car. By the way, I don't know
Speaker 1: if there was any dead soldiers, have no idea. But
Speaker 1: what he did help me figure out was he did
Speaker 1: help me figure out some of the stuff that was
Speaker 1: going on in regard to the discussion of the FBI
Speaker 1: v being involved in the case. So we talked about
Speaker 1: the FBI. That's actually where I started with this case.
Speaker 1: And that's why, uh you I talked to you two
Speaker 1: about this before. Is I got a wild hair one
Speaker 1: night and deciding that, well, the FBI has been involved,
Speaker 1: they have to know something. I filed freedom of information
Speaker 1: acts to find out what they knew. And we looked
Speaker 1: at you like you were an insane person. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: why did I use my real address? Stupid well, I
Speaker 1: expected to hear nothing back, but obviously I got something
Speaker 1: back from the FBI on both Ruby and Arnold, and
Speaker 1: that was the letters stating that they didn't have any
Speaker 1: information on them so they couldn't share anything and thank
Speaker 1: you very much, and here's our appeals process of And
Speaker 1: so I was I was rather confused, and I'm not
Speaker 1: the law is not my forte. And if it wasn't
Speaker 1: for the fact that I reached out to a couple
Speaker 1: of our experts, I still wouldn't understand exactly why the
Speaker 1: FBI didn't have anything on this case. So big thanks
Speaker 1: to Steven and Nicholas, because they really they really helped
Speaker 1: me out with this. And so here's why I understand
Speaker 1: the FBI got involved. According to the federal government, there
Speaker 1: are several distinctions about what they can and cannot do
Speaker 1: and can and cannot get involved within Indian country. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's what they refer to it as. And I know
Speaker 1: that some people will say it's state of American, other
Speaker 1: will say it's Indian. I'm not going to weigh in
Speaker 1: because I actually read on this subject. It was like
Speaker 1: what is it? And it's an individual preference. So I'm
Speaker 1: when I say it one way. That's based off of
Speaker 1: the way it was referred to in the thing. That's
Speaker 1: what the FBI calls it is. Yeah, and this is
Speaker 1: this is the way I found it. So just yeah,
Speaker 1: I went out to the acted suit tribes and they
Speaker 1: all say Indian. They say they say Indian more than
Speaker 1: they say Native American. So it's a little confusing. So
Speaker 1: but but he there there have been several legal cases
Speaker 1: that have helped put in different levels of jurisdiction for
Speaker 1: federal involvement. Back in the eighteen hundreds, it was if
Speaker 1: a crime was committed on the reservation, it was handled locally,
Speaker 1: and then there was some legal disputes. At one point
Speaker 1: what is known as the Major Crimes Act was put
Speaker 1: into that specified certain crimes that could be involved with
Speaker 1: the or the Feds could be involved with. And then
Speaker 1: that's been changed over time. But but basically what that
Speaker 1: means for the folks that are law enforcement in that
Speaker 1: area is like they this little flow chart I have here.
Speaker 1: I swear they must have to carry it around because
Speaker 1: it's a if the perpetrators Native American committing a non
Speaker 1: major crime on tribal territory and it's either a victimless crime,
Speaker 1: or it's against another Native American, the tribe has sold jurisdiction.
Speaker 1: If the perpetrators native American committing a non major crime
Speaker 1: on tribal territory against a non Native American, there's joint
Speaker 1: jurisdiction between the FEDS and the tribe. And if the
Speaker 1: crime is committed and it is a major crime murder
Speaker 1: per se, the Feds and the tribes both have joint
Speaker 1: jurisdiction no matter who the perpetrator is or who the
Speaker 1: crime is against. So it's like this is just a
Speaker 1: hodgepodge and that that sounds confusing enough. Well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess worse than it does, because it's a nightmare. And
Speaker 1: and I really I commend the men and women who
Speaker 1: work in that that Sheriff's department for working through this
Speaker 1: every day. Because apparently the Yankton Sioux had a dispute
Speaker 1: about territory that was theirs and what wasn't. There's based
Speaker 1: on a land sale in the eighteen nineties and the
Speaker 1: Yankton Sioux had a case that went eventually up to
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court in Um and it was all around
Speaker 1: that that agreement, whether it was their land or not.
Speaker 1: It was something about a waste for disposal facility, and
Speaker 1: whether they were going to use state or federal environmental
Speaker 1: guidelines to to manage it, because well, it was on
Speaker 1: it was in a white owned area because the original
Speaker 1: reservation gifted to the Indians or whatever by the by
Speaker 1: the Feds seated to the unions. Yeah, the Feds actually
Speaker 1: afterwards sold off portions of it to white settlers. So
Speaker 1: it was in a white zone. They were going to
Speaker 1: put it in right until technically on the reservation, even
Speaker 1: though not exactly on the reservation. And so and you
Speaker 1: just use a term that I wanted to explain because
Speaker 1: because this this whole thing created a shifting map based
Speaker 1: on which so it worked its way through the courts,
Speaker 1: that lawsuit about who owned that land, and what that
Speaker 1: did is that change who had jurisdiction in that specific area.
Speaker 1: And it was a shifting map. And there was a
Speaker 1: red zone and a white zone. And I really hope
Speaker 1: that red zone doesn't mean redskin, but I think it does,
Speaker 1: and it meant it meant in you know, is that
Speaker 1: that joint Indian and federal jurisdiction. The white zone was
Speaker 1: going to be the sheriff's department or normal county jurisdiction, right,
Speaker 1: And so I think what happens here is that through
Speaker 1: that shifting map, the crime or that the crime, the
Speaker 1: accident itself, and this potential crime where these people of
Speaker 1: poof evaporated suddenly falls into a possible scenario where the
Speaker 1: Feds need to be handling it because it could be
Speaker 1: a major crime. And so from what I can tell,
Speaker 1: essentially the whole thing that the fence took it, figured
Speaker 1: out it wasn't their ball and like a hot potato.
Speaker 1: I can't tell whether they threw it back to the
Speaker 1: sheriff's department as soon as they could, or they just
Speaker 1: closed it. I got rid of it. Yeah, I don't. Well,
Speaker 1: it was actually in their court. It was in their
Speaker 1: jurisdiction from what I can tell, because the town of
Speaker 1: Lake Andy's is in the red zone. So and but
Speaker 1: I think they just immediately determined no crime had been committed. Essentially,
Speaker 1: they probably opened a file on it and didn't put
Speaker 1: anything in there. It was a blank file, which is
Speaker 1: why my letters were empty. Absolutely they hadn't. They really
Speaker 1: did have nothing because no crime was even committed. I mean,
Speaker 1: they might not have even actually opened the file. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. But what I can tell
Speaker 1: you is this is the reason that I now understand
Speaker 1: the frustration in the sheriff's voice when I said, I
Speaker 1: don't understand what you mean by that about the FEDS
Speaker 1: getting jurisdiction and him explaining it to me, And I
Speaker 1: just didn't have enough history on that particular bit to
Speaker 1: not get it. But I understand why. That's that's a
Speaker 1: living nightmare to work through. So if nothing else, that's
Speaker 1: why the FEDS got the case. And then of course
Speaker 1: they absolutely nothing punted it. Yes, they totally totally punted.
Speaker 1: Here's your sports reference, everyone, Yes, absolutely, So that that
Speaker 1: right there, ladies, And gent's that is our story. That
Speaker 1: is all we have on it. So before we get
Speaker 1: into the theories, let's take a quick break. Yeah, who
Speaker 1: get in moon encircle the world flying hive of watching
Speaker 1: his events unfold. Each morning they take flight and it's
Speaker 1: night they return to report what they're seeing to keep
Speaker 1: outing informed. When they return at night, their meal is uncertain.
Speaker 1: But with their help watching the world, Odin is able
Speaker 1: to keep up with everything and have time to spare
Speaker 1: to shop for all the ingredients he needs to make
Speaker 1: those tasty meals for himself and the other Norse gods.
Speaker 1: But we're not Norse gods. Unfortunately, we don't have those
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Speaker 1: most of us have to do our shopping ourselves. But
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Speaker 1: night I had the turkey wraps, easy to make, tasted
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Speaker 1: and we're back theory time. So there's there's really two
Speaker 1: main theories within a bunch of sub theories on them.
Speaker 1: So theory number one is main theory is that they
Speaker 1: died at the scene, and the subset is that I've
Speaker 1: titled it thrown from the car. According to this theory,
Speaker 1: they simply wandered away from the car and they died
Speaker 1: from exposure to the elements in the area. And why Well,
Speaker 1: according to Tracy, she said Arnold wasn't in the car
Speaker 1: after it had flipped, So it is possible that if
Speaker 1: he wasn't wearing a seatbelt, he could have gone through
Speaker 1: the windshield, or the door could have opened during the
Speaker 1: role and he could have been flung from the door itself.
Speaker 1: I'll admit there's nothing in the reporting about a human
Speaker 1: sized hole in the windshield, so I don't think that
Speaker 1: he went through the windshield. But this, then, if we
Speaker 1: follow it, let's just say he was he was thrown
Speaker 1: from the car and went out the door. The door
Speaker 1: popped open and he went through it. Then that when
Speaker 1: Ruby got out, she went to him. You know, that's
Speaker 1: why she's saying, O God, Oh God, oh my god,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god. She goes to him. Um,
Speaker 1: and then from there, I don't know literally, I mean
Speaker 1: they were like they were like twenty ft or less
Speaker 1: away from the car, right, they're pretty close from the accident.
Speaker 1: The bodies are fed, which that's really fast to die
Speaker 1: from the elements of exposure. Excuse me, that's incredibly I mean,
Speaker 1: it would have had to have been blizzard like conditions.
Speaker 1: I feel that they would have gotten lost in the
Speaker 1: white out and not been able to find their way back,
Speaker 1: which there's no there's nothing to say that. But I
Speaker 1: also will say that to me, Arnold doesn't have to
Speaker 1: have been thrown from the car, because there there's also
Speaker 1: such a thing as like going into shock or like
Speaker 1: passing out. And Tracy, right, Tracy year old, It's totally
Speaker 1: possible that she just blacked out from as the car
Speaker 1: was flipping around, and then as she came to he
Speaker 1: was no longer in the car. Yeah, because when they
Speaker 1: found his body, he didn't had the sort of contusions
Speaker 1: that you would associate with being thrown from the car.
Speaker 1: Not in any of the reporting on this, he just Okay,
Speaker 1: So I think we can put that one too, bed
Speaker 1: because I'm not in disagreement at all with that. Um
Speaker 1: So then that, yeah, like you said, he got out
Speaker 1: of the car, she didn't. She didn't realize that. She
Speaker 1: came to and he was already gone, and so this
Speaker 1: so this next theory then is that they simply they
Speaker 1: tried to run away, and that is, like we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier, they get out of the car, they realized
Speaker 1: that they are in a world of trouble because they
Speaker 1: have wrecked their car and they are underage and drinking.
Speaker 1: And one of the things to keep in mind is
Speaker 1: that the couple had a daughter at She was maybe
Speaker 1: a year old at the most at the time, so
Speaker 1: there may have been oh, this is gonna be bad,
Speaker 1: whole bunch of negative repercussions from it. We need to
Speaker 1: just beat feet and get out of here. So let's
Speaker 1: go oh yeah, so again, but yeah, but it's weird
Speaker 1: that they would leave Tray Well, yeah, like, why didn't
Speaker 1: you just take everybody with you? I'm starting to formulate
Speaker 1: some more theory here, right, So again, Tracy, let's say
Speaker 1: she blacks out, passes out, we don't know for how long.
Speaker 1: Maybe she was also not wearing a seatbelt. She's getting
Speaker 1: thrown around a little bit, they settle, and in situations
Speaker 1: like that often your sense of time elongates. Right. So
Speaker 1: Arnold is the most awake of all of them somehow,
Speaker 1: and he's like, hey, Tracy, everybody okay, and girlfriend Ruby
Speaker 1: you know, says I'm okay, and Tracy says nothing, and
Speaker 1: he goes, Oh, crap, I've killed Tracy. You have to
Speaker 1: get out of here. Because Tracy also doesn't mention that
Speaker 1: she said anything to Ruby when she gained consciousness, So
Speaker 1: it's totally possible in my mind that he's like, oh crap.
Speaker 1: He gets out, She's like, oh my god, we killed her.
Speaker 1: She gets out and they leave her thinking she's dead.
Speaker 1: Tracy is there, she's eyes, but she's not really saying
Speaker 1: anything because she's in that state of shock. I can
Speaker 1: run with that that that is a better explanation, because
Speaker 1: I couldn't understand why you would abandoned the other person.
Speaker 1: But then if you think that person is dead, then
Speaker 1: you're definitely going to get the hell out of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's that. There's you know. Another thing is they didn't
Speaker 1: do any toxicology in the bodies, right, I have no idea. Joe. Again,
Speaker 1: I tried to ask about that stuff. I couldn't get
Speaker 1: an answer on it. Haven't seen any reporting to confirm
Speaker 1: or deny that they did. I would presume that they
Speaker 1: did so wandering away like that, you know, from an
Speaker 1: accident and forgetting about your cousinants in the back seat.
Speaker 1: It's the sort of thing I associated with, like LSD
Speaker 1: or head injuries, you know, being in a car that
Speaker 1: flipped over a couple of times. Or the other thing
Speaker 1: I was going to say is that it sounds like
Speaker 1: Ruby's body was probably too far gone to even do
Speaker 1: a toxicolity report, but I would guess it was wasn't
Speaker 1: really conclusive if they did it. But but I don't know.
Speaker 1: But the whole thing is is that again I want
Speaker 1: to come back to if they died there at that time,
Speaker 1: Let's come back to the fact that they didn't die
Speaker 1: because they drowned. They died from exposure and again no
Speaker 1: whole obvious holes in the ice. And let's just okay,
Speaker 1: let's let's just run down hypothetical scenario of one of
Speaker 1: them goes in, the other one goes in trying to
Speaker 1: rescue them, and now they are both treading water in
Speaker 1: freezing cold water. The reading that I've done says that
Speaker 1: you can you know, most people can survive for at
Speaker 1: least a half hour. Bear with me. Bear with me.
Speaker 1: How many times have you stepped off and found a
Speaker 1: deep spot when you were walking into the water. And
Speaker 1: also and you're like, whoa, Now, imagine you don't know
Speaker 1: where the ledge that you just came off of was.
Speaker 1: So they're they're treading water, they're trying to get back
Speaker 1: out by climbing out of the ice. It could have
Speaker 1: lasted for a while until they finally succumbed to hypothermia,
Speaker 1: which I would I'm guessing balls under the umbrella of
Speaker 1: death by exposure, so that they don't they're not listed
Speaker 1: as having being grounding victims. But I but again, why
Speaker 1: wouldn't I mean, that kind of hole in the ice
Speaker 1: should be really obvious to the people who were looking
Speaker 1: for them. Of course, it might depend on how far
Speaker 1: out they went towards the lake to look. I mean,
Speaker 1: they could have wanted out quite a ways on that
Speaker 1: water that water way out to the lake, Okay, go ahead,
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, yeah, So they would have expected then
Speaker 1: to be with thinking that there's no rational reason that
Speaker 1: they would walk way far out towards the lake. They
Speaker 1: didn't go out that far to look probably, But the
Speaker 1: difficulty with that is that means that if they walked
Speaker 1: due north in some fashion, they and then they go
Speaker 1: in the water, and then they die and they go underwater.
Speaker 1: Their bodies then had to go back south towards the bridge,
Speaker 1: which is an outlet, meaning the water is flowing northward already,
Speaker 1: so now they're flowing their their bodies traveling against the current.
Speaker 1: It can depend on this is like suddenly I've I've
Speaker 1: redeemed myself for ray Greek cars, stupid hard drive and
Speaker 1: understanding how would dynamics works? Absolutely? Yeah, what are we
Speaker 1: talking about? dB Cooper? But you see my point, Joel, Like,
Speaker 1: I get that. I thought the same thing. I was like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe you know, the water just shoved him in. And
Speaker 1: then I started thinking about, well, if it's march and
Speaker 1: it's run off and it's melt, everything's going out into
Speaker 1: the lake. So how do you explain that. I know,
Speaker 1: that's a tricky thing. I mean he could have actually,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what they did to actually
Speaker 1: damn off the inlet. When they started draining it and
Speaker 1: pumping the water out of it. He might have been
Speaker 1: further out and make that by sucked his body, sucked
Speaker 1: his body further further south, you know, possible, But they
Speaker 1: did find her body. Her body was she wasn't on
Speaker 1: the edge. It was actually out of the water. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she apparently, I get the if I were to use
Speaker 1: the images from Unsolved Mysteries, is any kind of metric,
Speaker 1: which I'm not going to, I think that she was
Speaker 1: in several feet of water, but floating and you know,
Speaker 1: on the top of several feet of water. That's all
Speaker 1: I got on on that. So, yeah, you're right, Joe.
Speaker 1: They may have inadvertently pulled him in farther into the
Speaker 1: area than he initially was. I don't know. So that though,
Speaker 1: that is the end of they died at that site,
Speaker 1: or died there at that time, I should clarify they
Speaker 1: died there at that time, is what both of these
Speaker 1: are are falling under. So that takes us to our
Speaker 1: next theory, which is, I know, the look on your face, Devan,
Speaker 1: it is not aliens, but it should be possibly. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a pretty good theory for this one that the
Speaker 1: aliens abducted them, they subjected them to experiments, and then
Speaker 1: dumped them back kind of where they thought they would
Speaker 1: be in sort of the same condition, because aliens don't know, well,
Speaker 1: you know, things happen. Okay, no, not really. My next
Speaker 1: theory here is they ran away from the scene, as
Speaker 1: we've just discussed, and then somehow they came back to
Speaker 1: the scene like weeks later and then died. Then after
Speaker 1: weeks after died, I guess, yes, And it doesn't make
Speaker 1: a lot of sense for month after yeah, some month.
Speaker 1: So this, this whole thing, this whole theory, which I
Speaker 1: don't put a whole lot of stock in, is that
Speaker 1: basically they beat feet, somebody gave them shelter. Arnold couldn't
Speaker 1: take being camped up in the little spot they were
Speaker 1: hiding at. Any morning, he went to a New Year's
Speaker 1: Eve party to blow some steam off, and then they
Speaker 1: went back to that site because they thought their car
Speaker 1: was still there. I don't know, and then they died there.
Speaker 1: I mean this, I will admit right now this, I've
Speaker 1: seen this before, and it's the hokeyest theory in the world,
Speaker 1: because there's no logical reason for them to go back
Speaker 1: days or weeks later. Well, you don't know, I mean
Speaker 1: that might have actually been a hangout spot, a place
Speaker 1: where everybody wants to smoke pot. I mean, who knows.
Speaker 1: You know, you park your car, you wander, you want,
Speaker 1: you know, the footpath that's along the railroad tracks there
Speaker 1: actually just just barely to the east of where they
Speaker 1: where they ran their car through, it turns south and
Speaker 1: an intersects Highway eighteen where that's what you can get
Speaker 1: onto it. So I mean that might have been a
Speaker 1: place people who come, like, you know, hang out and
Speaker 1: hang out on the footpath Danglar Lakes off the bridge
Speaker 1: and look at the lake. I mean, of course, in January.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I was gonna say like that. Okay,
Speaker 1: that that sounds great and high summer, but not in
Speaker 1: January for any any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: why this theory is kind of hard to believe. I
Speaker 1: think they did return to the just not alone alive. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you're you then sort of want to go into
Speaker 1: the next theory. That's that's what I can tell you're
Speaker 1: gunning four, which is they did indeed return to the
Speaker 1: scene of the accident, but they had died somewhere entirely different.
Speaker 1: They reanimated water over there. No, that's actually not it. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: not not the zombie theory. There's no zombie theory in
Speaker 1: this one. I know people really like the idea that
Speaker 1: they died somewhere else, and that is because one of
Speaker 1: the primary reasons is because of the amount of decomposition
Speaker 1: that Ruby's body experienced. It's it's a bit of a stretch.
Speaker 1: It seems like it's too much for her to her
Speaker 1: body to have gone through having sat in the water
Speaker 1: at that site, plus especially compared to his, especially compared
Speaker 1: to his And then there's that whole possible sighting. But
Speaker 1: I'm really going to discount the sighting and probably not
Speaker 1: talk about it again. I probably shouldn't be talking about
Speaker 1: as much as I am. Yes, that's exactly especially at
Speaker 1: a crowded party. Exactly my point. But if we follow
Speaker 1: this idea, it could explain a couple of things. And
Speaker 1: the idea here is essentially that these two were abducted
Speaker 1: from the scene of the accident aliens by a mean person. Okay,
Speaker 1: if we think about what Tracy said, she said Ruby
Speaker 1: got out of the car, and why would she just
Speaker 1: shut the door behind her, Well, maybe she saw somebody
Speaker 1: she didn't know. What's going On, she kind of wanted
Speaker 1: to hide her and protect her. Maybe there's the whole
Speaker 1: set of keys that are in Arnold's pocket that they
Speaker 1: can't quite figure out where those belong. If indeed that
Speaker 1: is true, maybe he picked those up from where they
Speaker 1: were being held. That would also explain why her shoes
Speaker 1: and her glasses could be missing, and he might be
Speaker 1: wearing different clothes. And it could explain the tuft of
Speaker 1: hair on the side of the road, because if somebody
Speaker 1: that told that dark suburban vehicle that we we talked
Speaker 1: about could be that was the person who did the
Speaker 1: dumping of said bodies, so they dumped the bodies, hair
Speaker 1: gets pulled off through that process. It's reaching, but it
Speaker 1: kind of it ties a few things up kind of nicely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's reaching as much as you
Speaker 1: wanted to be reaching. Well, I think I think. Okay,
Speaker 1: So here's why I feel like it's a real reach, Devon,
Speaker 1: is that to abduct people in this scenario is such
Speaker 1: an amazing crime of luck and opportunity at such a
Speaker 1: random location. Now, Okay, if indeed the accident was an accident,
Speaker 1: was it was Arnold's fault, I mean we could go
Speaker 1: down the alley of Okay, well, what if what if
Speaker 1: this guy actually was sitting in the intersection with his
Speaker 1: lights off and Arnold didn't see him, and as soon
Speaker 1: as Arnold started pulling forward, the guy hits the gas
Speaker 1: and pushes him off the road. Okay, well, then then
Speaker 1: there's a that's a little more the fairy is but
Speaker 1: a skin that's a weird place. We've argued this before
Speaker 1: with the asia degree disappearance in that you know, right place,
Speaker 1: right time. It doesn't necessarily mean they were kidnapped. It
Speaker 1: could mean they were picked up by the wrong person.
Speaker 1: They thought they had a passed out seventeen year old
Speaker 1: girl in the back of their car that they were
Speaker 1: responsible for. You were maybe even dead right. They get
Speaker 1: out there like we gotta get help, and a car
Speaker 1: comes by and they flag it down and say, we
Speaker 1: just slipped our car. Can you give us a ride?
Speaker 1: We need help. We need to get somewhere where we
Speaker 1: can call someone, and the guy says or girl says, yeah,
Speaker 1: no problem, and then oops, it turns out that person
Speaker 1: is an insane person and take him to a bar.
Speaker 1: I mean told me argued this before they saw the body.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've argued this before. And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that it's a great theory, but I am saying that
Speaker 1: them going somewhere else and then their bodies being returned
Speaker 1: is a pretty good theory. Well, yeah, of course, the
Speaker 1: going somewhere else and being having their bodies dumped back
Speaker 1: there by the killer. Yeah, And that's the problem I
Speaker 1: have with that is is it's better or safer and
Speaker 1: easier just to bury them wherever, you know, somewhere else
Speaker 1: or dumped the bodies somewhere else. And also, there were
Speaker 1: no signs of murder right exposure. They died of exposure.
Speaker 1: So I was going to ask, and Joe, I think
Speaker 1: is leading in the right direction for me in terms
Speaker 1: of questions here is that. Okay, so they died of exposure.
Speaker 1: So if this person is holding them, then how did
Speaker 1: they die of exposure? I mean that that could maybe
Speaker 1: explain why Let's say Ruby died a month earlier and
Speaker 1: then Arnold dies and so oh well, let's let's put
Speaker 1: them back where we got them, catch and release. Okay,
Speaker 1: so what if somebody accidentally hit them with their car.
Speaker 1: Do you think that the EMMY would be able to
Speaker 1: distinguish a person getting hit by a car versus a
Speaker 1: person being in a car accident of that magnitude. Yes,
Speaker 1: bones bones break well, bones break in accidents like that too.
Speaker 1: But but the thing is, I've actually looked into accidents
Speaker 1: where people have been hit by a vehicle, and the
Speaker 1: sad fact is that your femur tended to shadow very
Speaker 1: very dramatical. I was thinking as possible that they just
Speaker 1: wandered off, got disoriented from hypothermia, maybe had injuries whatever,
Speaker 1: and one or both of them, you know, it's entirely possible,
Speaker 1: giving the different positions of the bodies, that Arnold actually
Speaker 1: actually did fall through the ice, drowned and remained there
Speaker 1: undetected the entire time, whereas Ruby wandered off somewhere and
Speaker 1: died of exposures somewhere else, or both of them maybe did.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know that I had read
Speaker 1: an interview with the former sheriff, not the one that
Speaker 1: you talked to, the former sheriff, and for his name
Speaker 1: it's escaped, but his retirement. There was an article written
Speaker 1: about and this was the case that really really nagged
Speaker 1: in his mind a bit. And because one of the
Speaker 1: reasons is, of course they searched the area they found
Speaker 1: no sign that they've gone through the as no bodies,
Speaker 1: no nothing. And he said he knew somebody who rode
Speaker 1: his horse across that that land like in January, saw
Speaker 1: no signs. Yeah, and actually and and saw no signs
Speaker 1: of anybody's at all. And yet hear in Mark's, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Ruby's body shows up. Kind of interesting. But
Speaker 1: you know, the one thing that strikes me about this
Speaker 1: area and then the reasons to move a body is
Speaker 1: the jurisdictional thing, and that is that they were just
Speaker 1: inside the city limits of the town, and also by
Speaker 1: the wreck or where the wreck was. It might have
Speaker 1: just been pure coincidence, actually, but they were just inside
Speaker 1: the city limits of the lake, the town of Lake Andy's,
Speaker 1: which is in the red zone. And so if somebody
Speaker 1: from a white zone had this body of Rubies or
Speaker 1: maybe both of them that showed up and inconveniently died
Speaker 1: of exposure, they find them along about march Um and
Speaker 1: then figure out who they've got on their hands. Well,
Speaker 1: he might not have even they might not have even
Speaker 1: known who they were, although they might have figured out
Speaker 1: who they were and thought, hey, let's jump them back
Speaker 1: to the scene of the accident or It could just
Speaker 1: be that, hey, this is just over right there in
Speaker 1: the red zone, let's just take the bodies over there,
Speaker 1: dump them in that swell. It could have been a
Speaker 1: remarkable coincidence that they dumped the bodies back into the
Speaker 1: red zone under its different jurisdiction with more limited resources. Probably,
Speaker 1: and again just share speculation on my part. But that's
Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about this case is that
Speaker 1: the previous sheriff was sure the bodies were dumped there.
Speaker 1: But there's but they died of exposure, no signs of violence.
Speaker 1: Why would you dump the bodies there? The only reason
Speaker 1: I can really think of it is just to avoid
Speaker 1: rather inconvenient investigation that's a little too close to home
Speaker 1: for you, given that, you know, maybe maybe you're doing
Speaker 1: something you shouldn't be doing on your land. Doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you kill these people. It's just sheer accident that they
Speaker 1: wandered onto your land die of exposure. But they kind
Speaker 1: of pose a problem for you. So you get rid
Speaker 1: of the bodies, You take them across jurisdictional lines, and bam,
Speaker 1: you're golden. Assume you get okay, caught the bodies of course,
Speaker 1: well and and okay, so you've you've stitched. You've stitched
Speaker 1: the whole jurisdictional bit back in in a way that
Speaker 1: I hadn't considered it. But taking them to the same spot,
Speaker 1: it's just that's that that's the sticking point for me.
Speaker 1: If you know what the red zone is, why the
Speaker 1: hell not drive them two miles up to the other
Speaker 1: edge of the lake and dump them there because it's
Speaker 1: a red zone. And then everybody was saying, oh, well,
Speaker 1: obviously those ding dong's walked across the lake and died there,
Speaker 1: and we didn't see them like you do. You see
Speaker 1: where I'm coming. I see what you're saying, And it's
Speaker 1: it's too convenient to take them back to the starting
Speaker 1: point for that for me. But it just seems to
Speaker 1: me that that's the swell. It was a nice little
Speaker 1: place to dump the bodies because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: vegetation there, especially if the ice has melted and everything.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not going to be readily. It's it's
Speaker 1: a good easy place, right next to the road and
Speaker 1: the road and the path just to the north of
Speaker 1: the road. Uh. And it could have been that they,
Speaker 1: like I said, a coincidence. It could have been they
Speaker 1: recognized Arnold at least and just thought, hey, there, the
Speaker 1: wrecked car was found in this spot. Let's just dump
Speaker 1: the bodies there and not worried about it. Now, you're
Speaker 1: you're not saying so, I'm just gonna make sure that
Speaker 1: I understand this. You're not You're not implying that this
Speaker 1: is a typical dumping ground. This is just a one
Speaker 1: off thing. Yeah, just the one off. Just making sure. Yeah, Devin,
Speaker 1: you had you have your own theory aliens. I like
Speaker 1: that one. Yeah, I thought you had a real theory. No, no, alien,
Speaker 1: I mean aliens is a real theory for this one
Speaker 1: is interesting, I guess to like wrap it up. I
Speaker 1: do agree that it seems there's something to steal a
Speaker 1: term hinky going on here. There's I just I have
Speaker 1: a really hard time believing that their bodies were there
Speaker 1: the entire time. I have a really really hard time
Speaker 1: that the believing that the search just conveniently missed them.
Speaker 1: But I also have a hard time believing that, you know,
Speaker 1: it was a crime of opportunity, then they got dumped
Speaker 1: again or what happened. I don't know. How do you
Speaker 1: murder somebody through exposure? The only way I can think
Speaker 1: of it is you lock them in a barn, but
Speaker 1: then they should be decomposing at the same rate they
Speaker 1: should be. Yeah, they should also have like all sorts
Speaker 1: of like like marks on their hands and where they
Speaker 1: were trying to clod out of their enclosure and stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean, there should be. I just don't see any
Speaker 1: way to murder. You can tie them up and just
Speaker 1: leave them outside, but then there's gonna be there's gonna be, yeah,
Speaker 1: Like that's how do you do how do you make
Speaker 1: that somebody just stay out in the cold with out
Speaker 1: you know, I can't think of a way to do
Speaker 1: it short of locking somebody into one of those low
Speaker 1: deep freeze freezers. I don't know, because somebody's gonna die
Speaker 1: in a deep freeze like that very quickly. But they're
Speaker 1: gonna fight to the I mean there will still be
Speaker 1: signs of them, but not nearly as much as locking
Speaker 1: them in a bar and tied up. I don't know.
Speaker 1: So I'm out of theories. I really This is why
Speaker 1: I like this this case so much, because it's a
Speaker 1: kind of a toughie. If you have any thoughts about
Speaker 1: this particular case or any of the other cases that
Speaker 1: we've ever talked about or you want to share story
Speaker 1: ideas or anything else you want to chat with us about,
Speaker 1: You're more than welcome to share that with us. You
Speaker 1: can email that to us our email addresses Thinking Sideways
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Speaker 1: We have a couple of different other things that are
Speaker 1: on or actually, I guess it's just one other thing
Speaker 1: that's on our website, which is merchandise. So we have
Speaker 1: through Zazzle and Red Bubble, we have a couple of
Speaker 1: different types of merchandise. We've got shirts, T shirts, mugs,
Speaker 1: had a pull bunch of shirts going out recently, haven't
Speaker 1: at least and you hear the T shirt, that's cool.
Speaker 1: You know. Actually, I hate to admit it, I don't
Speaker 1: have one yet myself. I probably had to get one. Well,
Speaker 1: I thought about buying you one for Christmas, and then
Speaker 1: I decided I didn't want to and I got to that.
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, no, I know they're actually expensive. But
Speaker 1: so there's a whole bunch of different kind of merch there.
Speaker 1: Go to the website on the right hand side. You
Speaker 1: will see the links for that. That's all I've got
Speaker 1: to share today. You guys, got any other final parting
Speaker 1: thoughts or shots. Just if you're the person or persons
Speaker 1: who put those bodies back, we'd like to hear from
Speaker 1: you because I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has expired,
Speaker 1: and so I think you really don't need to worry
Speaker 1: about getting arrested. So just you know, send us an email.
Speaker 1: We'd like to know what happened. I just want to
Speaker 1: say we'll talk to you next week. And by the way,
Speaker 1: thanks to the sheriff for actually talking to me. I
Speaker 1: know that's nice. I'm sure it was aliens. Guys,