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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a mom of eight. Let

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Speaker 1: that Saint Ken a mom of eight shot dead, executed

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Speaker 1: on the street because why she confronts dopers trying to

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Speaker 1: sell weed to her children. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Just before school starts again, Maria Ramos, thirty three, brings

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Speaker 2: her eight children on a visit to their grandmothers in Oakland, California.

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Speaker 2: Blanco Velasco's home is full of bubbly energy while she

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Speaker 2: hosts both Maria and her other daughter's families. The children

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Speaker 2: are excited for back to school shopping with their cousins.

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Speaker 1: We've all lived through that, the excitement of back to school,

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Speaker 1: getting ready, getting new outfits, getting the notebooks, the pens,

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Speaker 1: the everything. That's what was happening. How can that seemingly

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Speaker 1: idyllic moment go so wrong? And then, in an eerie premonition,

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Speaker 1: this mom of eight is talking about her plans to

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Speaker 1: move her family, her children along with her mom, for

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Speaker 1: a better life, to a better area where they can

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Speaker 1: have a yard and a garden in the back listen.

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Speaker 3: In recent years, Maria Ramos has become extremely close with

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Speaker 3: mom Blanco of Alaska. Maria often talks of moving to

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Speaker 3: a larger home in the central valley with a big

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Speaker 3: yard for the children and a vegetable garden. Maria is

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Speaker 3: determined to provide a better life for her eight children.

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Speaker 3: Maria and Blanco put a timeline on their dream, planning

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Speaker 3: to move from her set together next year.

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Speaker 1: The mommy couldn't make it happen fast enough. You know,

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Speaker 1: many of us juggle working in children. She has eight

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Speaker 1: children to take care of. Her big plan was to

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Speaker 1: move those eight children do a home a neighborhood where

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Speaker 1: she could have a front yard and a garden in

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Speaker 1: the back. But she couldn't get there fast enough. This

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Speaker 1: is where it starts. Listen.

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Speaker 4: Around two pm, Blanc of Alasko notices a blue Toyota

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Speaker 4: Sedan parked outside her home for an extended period of time.

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Speaker 4: Suspicious mom of eight Maria Ramos walks down the driveway

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Speaker 4: along with her mom to investigate the unknown car there

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Speaker 4: in the street. The men in the car state they've

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Speaker 4: come to sell Velasco's sixteen year old grandson an order

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Speaker 4: and flash a marijuana eight pen. The two women argue

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Speaker 4: with the men, and the blue Toyota speeds.

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Speaker 1: Away with me an all star panel to make sense

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Speaker 1: of what we're learning right now. But first to Rachel Swan,

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Speaker 1: joining us investigative reporter writer with the San Francisco Chronicle. Rachel,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. Tell me

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Speaker 1: the first part of this story. Tell me about the

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Speaker 1: mom realizing spotting that blue Toyota and going down to

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Speaker 1: confront it, and then following it with the grandma.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. So, so, basically, this.

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Speaker 1: What this was.

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Speaker 5: You know, three people.

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Speaker 6: Who were apparently involved in a business together where they

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Speaker 6: did deliveries of i'll say, illegal substances to people's homes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, Rachel, as you know on crime stories,

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Speaker 1: everybody including me, is on the hot seat. Did you

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Speaker 1: just say, yeah, that the guys in the car were

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Speaker 1: in a business together.

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Speaker 6: Well, you know, not that much is known right now,

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Speaker 6: but we know that they were making a delivery for

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Speaker 6: you know, a web drug delivery service where you know,

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Speaker 6: they had a website.

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Speaker 5: Advertised I assume, you know, illegal.

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Speaker 6: Substances that they would deliver to your home, you know, sort.

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Speaker 1: Of like, well, let me get my hand around this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Rachel Swan, it's everything You're saying is correct. I just

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Speaker 1: have a heart. I a hard time digesting it because

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Speaker 1: you know, to Philip Dubay, high profile defense attorney in

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Speaker 1: the California jurisdiction, what is like delivering a pizza or

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Speaker 1: Chinese You go to a website, you type it in

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Speaker 1: and you get drugs and that's okay.

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Speaker 7: Well, first of all, I think they're mischaracterizing that it

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Speaker 7: wasn't drugs. It was vape pens. Okay, that's what the

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Speaker 7: paraphernalia is, that kids vape of what marijuana or tobacco whatever.

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Speaker 7: But you got to understand it.

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Speaker 1: So you're okay with miners having marijuana? No, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're snoop, fine, go for it. But Philip Dubay, look, okay,

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Speaker 1: so mom of eight, those are eight children, most of

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Speaker 1: them are miners. What is it legally your just for

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Speaker 1: miners to have marijuana, it's an infraction. Basically, it's like

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Speaker 1: a moving violation infraction. So for a miner to have pot,

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Speaker 1: it's an infraction. I'm not talking about you. You can

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Speaker 1: have a big do be right now for all I care,

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Speaker 1: But for a miner it'll be a cold day in

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Speaker 1: h double al that some ahole pulls up and tries

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Speaker 1: to deliver pot to my child. That's not happening. So

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Speaker 1: you're telling me that's absolutely okay to give an eleven

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Speaker 1: or twelve year old marijuana. No, not at all.

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Speaker 7: But I think there's a little more to the story here.

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Speaker 7: I think when mom rushed that car, she brought like

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Speaker 7: a little canister of pepper spray and she makes the

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Speaker 7: kids in the car. So if that's the case, that

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Speaker 7: under California law is an assault with the weapon. And

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Speaker 7: here you have mid traffics and car pulling up, Mom

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Speaker 7: spritzing everybody in the car. They feel like they're being attacked.

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Speaker 7: If I were defending these kids, it would be a

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Speaker 7: self defense, defensive others type situation. Not to say that

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Speaker 7: Mom had it coming, and not to victim sheme.

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Speaker 1: Here, because that is what you're making it sound like.

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Speaker 1: So Mom is trying to scare away dopers from her children.

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Speaker 1: They take off, she follows them to tell them to

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Speaker 1: stay out of her neighborhood. She goes up to the car,

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Speaker 1: sees a gun, then sprays a little pepper spray. I

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Speaker 1: would do if I saw a gun in the car. Yes,

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Speaker 1: if I had the pepper spray with me. Yes, but

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Speaker 1: you're making it sound like it's self defense on the

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Speaker 1: doper's part.

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Speaker 7: Well, first of all, you're assuming that that's how it

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Speaker 7: played out. You know, it was widely reported.

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Speaker 1: That you're assuming it's not.

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Speaker 7: No, my mom went up there and sprits them all

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Speaker 7: because she was angry rather than finger wag and yell

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Speaker 7: at them for being in the neighborhood and selling these devices.

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, did you just land on planet Earth? Did

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Speaker 1: you crawl out of an egg? Wait, you had a

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Speaker 1: moll I'm right, a human mother. Correct. Yes, she never

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Speaker 1: went don't do that. That's wrong. She never did that

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Speaker 1: to you, not once.

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Speaker 7: Not with pepper spray at her hand.

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Speaker 1: No, she used You made her. You made her sound

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Speaker 1: like the devil from hell. She finger wagged.

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Speaker 7: Mother.

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Speaker 1: You know what I can't hear you right now? Tomas Smith?

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Speaker 1: Can you help me? Help me? Tom Smith joining me,

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Speaker 1: former NYPD detective, co host of the gold Shield Podcast,

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Speaker 1: and what that is is true live crime with the detectives,

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Speaker 1: the investigators, the cops, the forensics that actually work on

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Speaker 1: that case. Past or present gold Shield Podcast. Tom no

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Speaker 1: offense to Philip Dubay. He is a high profile defense

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Speaker 1: attorney with the Public Defender's office. Nothing wrong with that,

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Speaker 1: and La and he seems to think that mommy is

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Speaker 1: the devil. She meels above because she with her mother,

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Speaker 1: the grandma, chases down the dopers and fusses at them

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Speaker 1: and wags her finger. According to him, so she sees

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Speaker 1: a gun in the car, sprays pepper spray and runs off.

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Speaker 1: And what do they do chase her down and shoot

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Speaker 1: her dead. I mean, you and I both know, Tom Smith.

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Speaker 1: I know you didn't get your law degree, but you

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Speaker 1: know all about self defense. And when someone is running

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Speaker 1: away from you and you pursue them and shoot them,

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Speaker 1: you do not have a claim of self defense. What

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Speaker 1: were you afraid of? Pointer her index finger? Really?

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Speaker 8: Oh, absolutely right, it doesn't equal. And she went up

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Speaker 8: there defending her kids and trying to make a better

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Speaker 8: life for her kids. And these criminals, and that's exactly

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Speaker 8: what they are. They had a gun in the car,

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Speaker 8: protecting their business. And what did they do in the

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Speaker 8: criminals today? What they do They shoot first and they

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Speaker 8: worry about everything else later. That's exactly what happened. If

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Speaker 8: you see the timing of the video. She got up

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Speaker 8: there and immediately he jumped down and started shooting.

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Speaker 1: All right, that's what happened, guys. A mother of eight,

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Speaker 1: a mom of eight is visiting grandma, and it's brutally

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Speaker 1: executed after she confronts drug dealers who had targeted her

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Speaker 1: children with weed. Yes, that's what happened. Now, she has

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Speaker 1: a little fingersized canister that fits on your key chain

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Speaker 1: of pepper spray. He has a gun, and that's bringing

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Speaker 1: a knife to a gunfight. That's I slap you and

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Speaker 1: you shoot me with an oozy? What more do we know? Listen?

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Speaker 3: Blanca and Maria hop in Velasko's car, determined to intervene

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Speaker 3: and keep the dealers from ever returning. The lady follow

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Speaker 3: behind the Toyota for two blocks, when suddenly the Toyota

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Speaker 3: screeches to a stop. Blanca stops short behind them, and

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Speaker 3: her daughter Maria gets out to approach the car. It's

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Speaker 3: then that mama of eight, Maria quickly turns and runs

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Speaker 3: across the street away from the Toyota.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now. Esteemed psychologist doctor Jory Crossing, faculty

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Speaker 1: Saint Leo University, consultant at the Blue Wall Institute, an

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Speaker 1: author of operations, doctor jury. If I may call you

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Speaker 1: that you know I hear Philip Dubay, and he's doing

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Speaker 1: what he's trying to do. That's why he wins so

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Speaker 1: many cases because somehow, in about three sentences, he twists

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Speaker 1: this thing around to make it mommy's fault. Help me

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Speaker 1: out here.

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Speaker 9: I think we've got to have a different perspective of this,

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Speaker 9: and that deals with the individual shooters. You know, we

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Speaker 9: can look at personalities, but when you have two people

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Speaker 9: or more acting in concert, this socialization or think takes over.

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Speaker 9: That's the best way that I can describe it. And

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Speaker 9: we're seeing more and more of this across the country.

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Speaker 9: Police officers involved in shootings and and all kinds of

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Speaker 9: different violent altercations. We're rising to a new level of violence.

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Speaker 1: Rachel Swan joining me, investigative reporter, staff writer San Francisco Chronicle. Rachel,

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Speaker 1: how was this caught on video?

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Speaker 6: Well, my understanding is that this was captured on a

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Speaker 6: neighbor's camera, because you know, everybody has these.

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Speaker 5: Door cameras now this camp, so.

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Speaker 6: You know, the police are able to get warrants for

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Speaker 6: all this video now and collect it from neighbors. You know,

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Speaker 6: the investigation is in necessarily stages, but I would imagine

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Speaker 6: they have multiple videos, at least one, as we can

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Speaker 6: see very clear.

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Speaker 1: One crime stores with Nancy Gray.

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Speaker 2: A purp in the back seat gets out, armed with

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Speaker 2: a gun and chases mom Maria down the street before

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Speaker 2: opening fire. Blanca pulls closer to the Toyota, trying to

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Speaker 2: shield her daughter, who is now trying to take cover

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Speaker 2: from the gun to fire. When Blanca turns back towards

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Speaker 2: the Toyota, the shooter gets back inside and runs the

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Speaker 2: loaded gun on Grandma Blanca. In a blind panic, Blanca

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Speaker 2: speeds away with the blue Toyota hot on her tail,

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Speaker 2: so the.

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Speaker 1: Grandma is terrorized as well. She sees the gun and

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Speaker 1: takes off, thinking her daughter Maria has run away, and

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Speaker 1: she circles back to find the worst listen.

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Speaker 3: Blanca eventually loses the teens in traffic and feels it's

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Speaker 3: safe to go back for Maria. Back on Hilton, Blanca

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Speaker 3: can't seem to find Maria and assumes her daughter is

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Speaker 3: still hiding. Then she spots Maria lying on the sidewalk

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Speaker 3: in a pool of blood. Blanca rushes to help Maria,

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Speaker 3: telling her to breathe and hang on for her children

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Speaker 3: as she calls nine to one one.

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Speaker 1: Imagine that going back to get your daughter, who has

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Speaker 1: eight children of her own, ter raise thinking that she's hiding.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at that video carefully, you see

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Speaker 1: the perps actually start firing at the vehicle, the great

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Speaker 1: SUV with Grandma and Mom in the car. Watch this,

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Speaker 1: Watch it. Mom gets out, she sees what she's she

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Speaker 1: sprays the pepper spray. They're chasing there, you go the

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Speaker 1: gun and it's not over yet. Then he fires at Grandma,

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Speaker 1: chases down, Mom, shoots her, then fires on Grandma. Grandma

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Speaker 1: circles back to get her daughter, only to find her

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Speaker 1: dead in a pool of blood. Begging her to hang

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Speaker 1: on for her eight children, she calls nine to one

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Speaker 1: one joining me now over now medical examiner with the

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Speaker 1: formerly Clark County Office of the Coroner. That's Vegas. Never

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Speaker 1: a lack of business there, doctor Gorniak, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Explain to me, how was it that

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Speaker 1: mom of eight, Maria could bleed out so quickly there

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Speaker 1: on the sidewalk.

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Speaker 10: Well, it looks like from the video that she was

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Speaker 10: shot even before she got to the sidewalk, just based

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Speaker 10: on her gait as she's kind of running but more limping,

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Speaker 10: so I believe that she got shot even before she

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Speaker 10: got to the sidewalk, so she could have been shot

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Speaker 10: in the chest, so that's not going to be an

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Speaker 10: immediate death, and she can bleed out there. I know

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Speaker 10: she was shot multiple times, so if she shot, say

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Speaker 10: in her head, that could be the blood in her

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Speaker 10: chest some of the obviously some of the blood will

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Speaker 10: be coming out of her body, but most of it

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Speaker 10: will be stayed inside. And unfortunately, you know, she bled

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Speaker 10: out on the sidewalk. Terrible for her her mom to

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Speaker 10: find her. But I want to go back up out

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Speaker 10: the delivery of drugs. We still had a lot of

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Speaker 10: drug overdoses during COVID when the world shut down, and

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Speaker 10: I think that's where the quote unquote business of delivery

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Speaker 10: came into play, because people were getting their drugs delivered

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Speaker 10: to them because obviously they weren't going out and getting

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Speaker 10: them off the street. So I believe the delivery of

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Speaker 10: drugs the business of what do you call it?

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Speaker 5: What's the door dash?

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Speaker 10: Right? So dope dash started during COVID because we still

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Speaker 10: had plenty of people dying of overdoses, so that probably

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Speaker 10: this business sprung from that time.

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Speaker 1: We are hearing unconfirmed reports that mom of a Maria

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Speaker 1: was shot in the back. If that's true, Doctor Jan Gorniac,

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Speaker 1: a medical examiner, explained to me how she would have

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Speaker 1: died so quickly When her mother, the grandma circled back,

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Speaker 1: she was already in the last throws of death. She

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Speaker 1: was gone. The mom begging her to stay alive, you know,

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Speaker 1: calling nine one one, They couldn't get there fast enough.

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Speaker 1: So how would a shot to the back cause her

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Speaker 1: to bleed out so quickly? Did her lungs fill it

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Speaker 1: with blood? How does that work?

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Speaker 10: Well, depending on where the shots were, there are multiple

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Speaker 10: It could have gotten a lung. But most people don't

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Speaker 10: realize too that the main artery in your body, the

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Speaker 10: A order, is toward to the back. So depending on

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Speaker 10: the direction that the bullet went, it could have clipped

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Speaker 10: her along and her order it could have went, depending

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Speaker 10: which side is going left to right, right to left,

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Speaker 10: that it got the heart and that would be a

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Speaker 10: cause for her to die so quickly.

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Speaker 1: So, doctor Gorniac, she would have been shot either in

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Speaker 1: the back or a side shot to the torso possibly

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Speaker 1: a shot to the arm that goes then into the chest. Correct,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely correct.

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Speaker 10: There could being we call it a through and so

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Speaker 10: in and out of the arm and then into the chest.

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Speaker 10: So and it looks like she's shot on that that

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Speaker 10: right side as she's facing the car, and then as

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Speaker 10: she's running away you'll see and she might have been

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Speaker 10: shot right there too, but just to see her gate,

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Speaker 10: it's like she wasn't running as normal as you would

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Speaker 10: think someone was. And plus I see that parked car

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Speaker 10: over there, so she was. She was Unfortunately in an

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Speaker 10: open you know, open target for for this person to

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Speaker 10: to shoot.

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Speaker 1: The mother of a gunned down in the street, and

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Speaker 1: to make matters worse, we find out mommy is shot

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Speaker 1: multiple times. Listen.

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Speaker 4: Oakland PD arrives within minutes, finding Blanca still clutching Maria,

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Speaker 4: who is suffering from multiple gunshot wounds to her back

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Speaker 4: and struggling to breathe. Cops fight to keep Maria conscious,

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Speaker 4: but by the time paramedics arrive, Maria is gone. Blanc

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Speaker 4: A police they just wanted to keep the teens from returning,

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Speaker 4: and manages to tell them the car's license plate.

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Speaker 1: Number, so she is in fact shot multiple times. A

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Speaker 1: mother of eight, just trying to keep dope dealers out

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Speaker 1: of the neighborhood and away from her own children. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've heard many, many stories, doctor Jory Crausen, of moms

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Speaker 1: seemingly getting superhumanus strength and you know, confronting attackers, risking

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Speaker 1: their own lives to save their children. And that is

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Speaker 1: exactly what mom of eight Maria did here. She tried

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Speaker 1: to take on dopers.

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Speaker 9: I've got to give her credit for the courage she showed,

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Speaker 9: you know, confronting them. Even if it was just going

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Speaker 9: to be in her mind, a verbal altercation, she still,

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Speaker 9: you know, jumped right into that fire like a mama lion,

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Speaker 9: protecting her coats.

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Speaker 2: Oakland PD canvas is the neighborhood and locates surveillance footage

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Speaker 2: that captured the entire shooting clean Clow. Those officers track

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Speaker 2: the blue Toyota sedan to a home on Hilton Street.

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Speaker 2: The shocking discovery that the thugs and the blue Toyota

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Speaker 2: selling dope or teens, including nineteen year old Isaiah Gomez,

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Speaker 2: who is detained and questioned. Hours later, the two sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old passengers in Gomez's car are also arrested. Cops

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Speaker 2: then recover a gun that matches the showcasings found at

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Speaker 2: the scene.

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Speaker 1: Well, they may call it the shocking discovery that the

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Speaker 1: perps are teens. The shocking discovery for me is that

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Speaker 1: there is a mother of eight, shot multiple times on

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Speaker 1: the street who bleeds out and dies with the grandma,

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Speaker 1: her mother cradling her, begging her to live. And why

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Speaker 1: because the mom of eight, Maria dares to take on

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Speaker 1: dope dealers who turn out to be teens. Okay, question

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Speaker 1: to you, Philip Dubay, high profile defense attorney. Maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: missing something here, But does the fact that their teens

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Speaker 1: somehow change the fact that Maria, a mother of eight,

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Speaker 1: is dead on the street. Oh no, not at all.

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Speaker 7: I mean, these kids are just as culpable. So the

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Speaker 7: only question is where are they going to go? Are

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Speaker 7: they going to go into the juvenile justice system or

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Speaker 7: will they be marched upstairs into adult court?

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Speaker 1: And these kids could not have pared. They're calling them kids,

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Speaker 1: you're calling them ers. Isn't one are about to turn

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Speaker 1: twenty years old? Hold on, Rachel Swan joining us from

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Speaker 1: the San Francisco Chronicle. Isn't Isaiah Gomez the driver? Isn't

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Speaker 1: he about to turn twenty?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Well he's nineteen, so he is technically an adult, you know,

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Speaker 6: under the law.

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Speaker 5: But all teenagers.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment. Rachel is Gomez the driver.

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Speaker 5: He is the driver. He is a driver, and.

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Speaker 1: Rachel Swan, let me understand something. What is he charged with?

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Speaker 1: What's the charge on the driver Isaiah Gomez?

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Speaker 6: And I should say, actually, he is allegedly the driver.

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Speaker 6: He hasn't been convicted of anything.

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Speaker 5: He is charged.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, Rachel, We're not in a court of law.

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Speaker 1: Look around, You're in a studio. You see the video. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we know he is driving, but okay, the alleged driver,

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Speaker 1: you win, you win the alleged driver. Of course, he's

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Speaker 1: the driver. But I'll pretend I'm in front of a

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Speaker 1: judge of the alleged driver. What is the charge against

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Speaker 1: the alleged driver, Isaiah Gomaz.

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Speaker 6: Felony accessory after the fact. So that's not murder. That

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Speaker 6: is accessory that is allegedly helping, you know, conceal the shooter,

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Speaker 6: basically helping him flee from the crime.

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Speaker 1: Rachel, do you just want to say allegedly one more

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Speaker 1: time and just get it out of your system.

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Speaker 6: I'm always going to say allegedly, you know, okay, pulling

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Speaker 6: your util someone's convicted.

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Speaker 5: I would eligibly.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, seriously on this topic, let me understand something.

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Speaker 1: Tom Smith joining me. You know, I know what Dubay

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Speaker 1: is going to say because he's like programmed. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: I'll deal with him in just a moment. But Tom

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Speaker 1: Smith joined me, joining me, former NYPD detective, co hosts

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Speaker 1: gold Shields podcast. Tom, why is this bastackwards? Because if

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Speaker 1: you and I, this is a tired one. But I'll

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Speaker 1: use it because it makes sense. Go into a bank

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Speaker 1: and I say, okay, we're not going to shoot anybody, right,

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Speaker 1: and you go absolutely not. I just want the money.

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Speaker 1: We go in, you take out an oozy. It'spraay the place. Ah,

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Speaker 1: what did we just not say we're not shooting anybody?

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Speaker 1: Guess what? I'm charged with murder? So why is the

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Speaker 1: adult in the car in his as Gorniac said, door

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Speaker 1: dash drugs? Why is he not charged with murder felony?

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Speaker 1: Murder felony, The underlying felony is the aggravated assault. I

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Speaker 1: don't care if he didn't pull the shaker. That is

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Speaker 1: not the black and white letter of the law. Just

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Speaker 1: like I'm gonna get charged with murder because you shot

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Speaker 1: the bank teller.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I'd be charging wall with murder. And here's why.

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Speaker 8: Here's my part. He had an opportunity to drive away

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Speaker 8: to watch that video. He closed the door before the

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Speaker 8: victim's car got there. He could have very easily just

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Speaker 8: driven away and gotten out of that area. He chose

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Speaker 8: to stay so his guys that are in the backseat

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Speaker 8: of that car could take care of business.

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Speaker 1: He waits for the driver to get back, he waits

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Speaker 1: for the shooter to get back in the car, and

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Speaker 1: then takes off and they hide out. And here is

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Speaker 1: an another thing, Tom Smith, you know what, let me

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Speaker 1: try this one out on Philip Dubay Defense attorney Dobay.

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Speaker 1: As we all know, under the law, there is explicit

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Speaker 1: intent where I say, Philip d Bay, I'm gonna shoot

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Speaker 1: you dead, and bang, I do it. That's explicit, I

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Speaker 1: state it. Then there is implicit intent where I don't

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Speaker 1: say anything, I snink up behind you and shoot me

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Speaker 1: in the back of the head and you die. My

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Speaker 1: actions implicitly prove I meant to kill you. In this case,

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Speaker 1: you have the only adult in the car, Isaia Gomez,

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Speaker 1: delivering dope in a residential neighborhood two children. The mom

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Speaker 1: chases after him with Grandma is the driver and she's

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Speaker 1: the wingman. They chase down the dopers. He's got a

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Speaker 1: guy in the back seat with a gun and he

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Speaker 1: unlet's the shooter get out, pull off a couple of

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Speaker 1: round sheet mommy, and then take off. He's part of it.

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Speaker 1: Why is he not charged with felony murder underlying felony

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Speaker 1: ag assault.

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Speaker 7: It's like a law school exam. But what happened was

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Speaker 7: back in January of twenty nineteen, California change the felony

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Speaker 7: murder doctrine where eight ers and a betters cannot be

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Speaker 7: held accountable for the underlying homicide unless they were the

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Speaker 7: actual shooter, intended to kill, or they acted in reckless

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Speaker 7: disregard for human life. So it's going to be a

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Speaker 7: tough call for a jury to say that he was

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Speaker 7: in on the murder. Now, he obviously was there to

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Speaker 7: deliver vape pen.

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Speaker 1: Why is he driving this guy around with a gun, Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a different question.

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Speaker 7: Doesn't mean that he was in on a killing of

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Speaker 7: this particular victim. You had to understand this was a

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Speaker 7: very unplanned, sort of spontaneous act. Car pulls up mid traffic,

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Speaker 7: gets out with pepper spray, then boom, the gun goes off.

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Speaker 7: It's not as if this whole thing was rehearsed and

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Speaker 7: pre planned. Nobody knew she was going to come up

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Speaker 7: on them like that, and if he did not know.

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Speaker 1: That, the guy the gun dobey making the argument that

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Speaker 1: the mother of a is the bad guy in this Samaria,

433
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: let me ask you a question, Philip, do Bay do

434
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: you have a gun on you right now?

435
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 8: No?

436
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: Oh? Why? Because you don't plan on shooting anybody today,

437
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: right or at least not in the studio.

438
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 10: Correct.

439
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: I don't have a gun either, because I'm not planning

440
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: to gun down well, not now anyway, Jackie sitting over there.

441
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: When you show up with a gun to make drug deliveries,

442
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: I think the intent is clear. If anybody messes with you,

443
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: they're going to get shot. And this guy the only

444
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: adult in the car. He is the one, pardon the comparison,

445
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: he's driving this car. He's literally driving the car. And

446
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: without him this wouldn't happen because the others don't have

447
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: a car to drive. He is the one running the show.

448
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: He's more than an eight or and a better. This

449
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: is his plan.

450
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 7: Got under California law. Under California law, he's only liable

451
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 7: for the underlying felony, which is constructive possession of a

452
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 7: gun you know that, or accessory after the fact, which

453
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 7: by the way, only carries three years here as a felony.

454
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 7: I mean, in theory, you can plead him out, let

455
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 7: him go do his three years at halftime, and he's done.

456
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 7: He can move on with his life. The actual shooter

457
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 7: is the one who's in big trouble. Unless they can

458
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 7: show that that driver was in on it, had the

459
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 7: intent to kill, or acted in reckless disregard with actual

460
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 7: indifference to human life, he is not liable for the

461
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 7: murder itself under our abrogated felony murder doctrine.

462
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 11: Out Here units responded. They found the young woman suffering

463
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 11: from one they provided hey. She unfortunately passed away, and

464
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 11: within minutes our patrol team and our special resources team

465
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 11: sprung into action, identifying the vehicle, locating in the vehicle,

466
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 11: and then quickly taking three suspects in a custody within

467
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 11: the next twelve hours.

468
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how difficult it really was to find them.

469
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: Because grandma had a license tag and she gave it

470
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: to police that was trapped back immediately to a location

471
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: on Hilton Street not far away, and there it was

472
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: the blue Toyota Sedan eate four door. It's reminiscent of

473
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: how cars very often help you find your killer. Of course,

474
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: there's those times, so you've got the car and you

475
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: still don't find the killer, you have to be hit

476
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: over the head with the car. In Long Island's serial

477
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: killer case, Rex Huerman who's responsible for at least five

478
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: women's death and emphasis on at least and would just

479
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: bury them along Gilgo Beach so he could pass by

480
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: them every morning on the way to work. He had

481
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: his Chevy Avalanche, no longer in production, into production I

482
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: think in twenty thirteen. His Chevy Avalanche was spotted by

483
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 1: multiple witnesses and it was part outside his house the

484
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: whole time. But it wasn't put together. Two and two

485
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: necessarily did not equal four in that case, so he

486
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: could continue killing women. In this case, Oakland PD follow

487
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: up on the tag, they find the blue Toyota four door,

488
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: and they immediately get the adult. In this scenario, but

489
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: listen to this, all that hard police work is for naught.

490
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: One of the sixteen year olds is released and not

491
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 3: charged in the killing, while the other is charged with murder.

492
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: That team remains behind bars at the Alameda County Juvenile Hall.

493
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: It is not yet been decided if he'll be charged

494
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 3: as an adult. The driver, Isaiah Gomez, says he's not

495
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: guilty to accessory after the fact and is released on bond,

496
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 3: ordered to wear an ankle monitor.

497
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm going to go out

498
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: to Rachel Swan. Rachel, is this correct? One of the

499
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: teams is released and not charged, the adult is released

500
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: with nothing but an ankle monitor, and the third one

501
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: is looking at being charged as in juvenile so he'll

502
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: probably get out if he does time at all in

503
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: two years. Did the adult in this scenario actually walk

504
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: out with nothing but an ankle monitor?

505
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 6: Well, I mean there are actually some other conditions, but

506
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 6: you know, I think he I believe he also has

507
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 6: to do. I believe he also has to do some programs.

508
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: You know, So there are some programs like what don't

509
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: she mothers of eight dead on the sidewalk? What kind

510
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: of program does he have to do? Because normally programs

511
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: are enforced as sentencing.

512
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 6: If memory serves me, there's a jobs program, But I

513
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 6: mean there's a there's usually like in editions.

514
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: But so he takes part and gunning down a mother

515
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: of eight, and we're going to help him find a job.

516
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: We're putting him in a job's program. That's his punishment.

517
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 6: I mean, I I do if if memory serves me.

518
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 6: When I looked at the court documents, there are a

519
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 6: couple other conditions in addition to the main. One was

520
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 6: that he has to wear a GPS monitor, which we

521
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 6: sometimes call an ankle bracelet.

522
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 5: So he's out of jail now.

523
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 6: He has pled not guilty, as he said, he has

524
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 6: to appear back in court and he will face a trial.

525
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: And he has to wake up every morning and make

526
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: his bed and brush his teeth. Okay, what is wrong

527
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: with this scenario, doctor Jori?

528
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, I mean you have to look at you know,

529
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 9: the the governance of the population. Society has changed, not

530
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 9: for the better. I mean, you know, you look at

531
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 9: this violence, and by design, you can look at this

532
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 9: group working as a business. The driver, the adult, the

533
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 9: younger ones are going to carry the weapons and do

534
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 9: the enforcement because just what you're seeing, they're not charged

535
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 9: as adults. Here in Florida. I can remember a time

536
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 9: when we had seven twelve year olds booked for first

537
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 9: degree murder. They were actually hired in gangs to kill rivals. Okay,

538
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 9: So I mean that's a social cultural shift, a major one.

539
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 9: Uh when you look at the average.

540
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: Holder, this is the moment, doctor Jerey crawsing, You're absolutely correct.

541
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: But I'm going to get to Tom Smith very quickly,

542
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: jumping off what you just said. Tom Smith, former NYPD.

543
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: Tom is the oldest story in the book. I remember

544
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: the first case felony case I ever had. I got

545
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: sent over to juvenile to find a witness. I'm like, uh,

546
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: what I want a seven year old witness? But okay,

547
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: I went over there. It wasn't the witness, it was

548
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: the defendant was a little boy. And this is how

549
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: it works. Adults use children and teens because they'll get

550
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: The most they can get is five years. That's the

551
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: most they can get. In juvenile. They'll probably do one

552
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: to two years in a dormitory setting. So if that

553
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: and that's highly unlikely. So adults, like the adult here

554
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: gets children or teens to hold the dope and the guns.

555
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: Why because they'll go to The adult will go to

556
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: jail four twenty to life. The team will be out

557
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: in a matter of months and get right back out

558
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: on the street. As Crosin was saying, this is one

559
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: of the oldest stories, the oldest plans and the playbook

560
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: for drug lords and dope dealers. Use teens, use children

561
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: while you supervise them, so you don't go to jail.

562
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 8: Right.

563
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: And here's the other thing.

564
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 8: The criminals today know the criminal justice system and policies

565
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 8: and laws better than anyone. They know what they can

566
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 8: get away with, They know who they can use to

567
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 8: get away with certain crimes. And this is a perfect

568
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 8: example of that. They know the laws in California are lenient,

569
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 8: and what's going to happen to them, Absolutely nothing. They

570
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 8: get an ankle monitor and a court date later on

571
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 8: down the line.

572
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 1: Caught on the the horrific moment a mother of eight,

573
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: just thirty three years old is brutally executed. Why she

574
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: confronted the dope dealers trying to sell her children weed listen.

575
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 4: Blanca Velasko is speaking with several media outlets to keep

576
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 4: Maria's name in the news. Velasco hopes the media attention

577
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 4: will help get justice for her daughter's murder. Velasco is

578
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 4: now taking care of Maria's eight children and is struggling

579
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 4: to explain what happened to their mother.

580
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 12: She told KPIX, the fifteen, the thirteen, and the eleven,

581
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 12: they know that mom is gone. The other five I

582
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 12: haven't had the courage to tell them.

583
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: That's for our forensic KPIs and more.

584
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: Blanco Velasko is speaking out about her daughter's murder, hoping

585
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 2: for change in Oakland. Maria Ramos's shooting is receiving increased

586
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: media attention, as the mom of eight was shot in

587
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: broad daylight while she was just trying to protect her children.

588
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: Velasco detailed has last comments for NBC Bay Area.

589
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: I started rubbing her and told her, breathing with me.

590
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: Now you know we still need you. You haven't kids

591
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: that still need you. That from our friends at NBC

592
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: Bay Area. I was just thinking about her original statement.

593
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: The fifteen to thirteen and the eleven year old, they

594
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: know Mommy's gone. The other five I haven't had the

595
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: courage to tell them yet. The other five children don't

596
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: even know their mom is dead. It's not the first

597
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 1: time that a mother has been attacked right in front

598
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: of her children.

599
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 13: Listen, you've got a mom and her three boys going

600
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 13: to an afternoon dental appointment. You've got traffic on the road,

601
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 13: and missus Bigelow is trying to move to her right

602
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 13: to get out of the way for an emergency vehicle

603
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 13: that's trying to pass. She apparently cuts off Jeremy Webster,

604
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,479
Speaker 13: a twenty three year old man. He then follows her,

605
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 13: terrorizing the family as they go down the road.

606
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: So just following mom and her three little boys wasn't enough, listen.

607
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 14: Jeremy Webster follows Megan Bigelow into the parking lot and

608
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 14: blocks in her car. Webster and Bigelow exchange heated words

609
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 14: outside their cars. Webster then retrieves a gun and shoots

610
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 14: Megan in the back at head. As Meghan's sons try

611
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 14: to check on their mother, Webster shoots Vaughan thirteen, and

612
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 14: Asa eight. Webster shoots another bystander before taking off and

613
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 14: heading to his work shift. Vaughn dies in the parking lot. Meghan, Asa,

614
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 14: and the bystanders survive their injuries with extensive medical care.

615
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: What is wrong with these people shooting at mom's and

616
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: even children, this time in the parking lot of the

617
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: dentist office and more.

618
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 14: Joanna Kloonan is taking her son Aiden to kindergarten driving

619
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 14: down a busy freeway when Marcus Aures cuts her off.

620
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 14: Kloonan flips Eric the bird and moves away from him,

621
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 14: but Eres follows her. Klouonan hears a loud noise. Then

622
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 14: Aiden six complains that his stomach hurts. Aiden is shot

623
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 14: by Marcus Aurez, finally identified through tips based off the

624
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 14: description of his Volkswagon golf sport wagon. Eres is charged

625
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 14: with murder, and girlfriend wyn Lee, who was riding with Ares,

626
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 14: is charged as an accessory, opening fire on mommy.

627
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: And then ending up killing a six year old child.

628
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 1: To Rachel Swan joining us with the San Francisco Chronicle,

629
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: what's next? Are we waiting to find out if the

630
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: juvenile who pulled the trigger is getting his milk and

631
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: cookies in JIV Hall?

632
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 5: You know, we don't really have access to the.

633
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 6: Sixteen year old Acus shooter's court records because because he

634
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 6: is because he is a juvenile, so none of that's public.

635
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 5: So honestly, I won't know, No one will know.

636
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Thank you to all of

637
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: our guests for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off,

638
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: Give my friend