1 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: When I was going for my last interview at the 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Crime Commission, I had to do what they called a 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: psychological with doctor guy. Now everybody had warned me about 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: this guy, that he was gonna make me wait in 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: the waiting room from a long period of time, and 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: then when he finally brought me in, where I sat 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: was gonna matter. He had a rocking chair, then a sofa, 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: and then this lazy boy chair. So whatever you picked 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: to sit on mattered, and he was going to do 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: this whole profile on you just based on that. And 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: if you chose the sofa, whether it was to the 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: far right or far left or in the middle, told 13 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: him something else about you. So I thought, I'm prepped. 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm ready. This guy's not gonna fool me. He's not 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: gonna get under my skin. They've already told me. He's 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: gonna make me pick who I prefer, my mom or 17 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: my dad, all these things he's gonna throw at me. 18 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: But I was still not prepared. He hands me a 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: brand new yellow legal pad and tells me to write 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: down every single person I've ever had sex with. In 21 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: my mind, I'm like, if my list is too long, 22 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 1: that tells you one thing. If my list is too short. 23 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: It's gonna tell him another and if I do my 24 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: true list, he's gonna think I'm a liar. So I 25 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: used the only gift I truly have, which is my humor, 26 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: and I looked right at him and I said, I'm 27 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: gonna need some more paper. At that point, he kind 28 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: of smiled and took the legal path from me and said, okay, 29 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: start to count backwards from one hundred by three. So 30 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: I felt pretty confident I was gonna be okay. But 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: when you talk about sex, people sometimes get uncomfortable. But 32 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: I got two guests tonight. They ain't uncomfortable. We're grown, 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: we are ready, and tonight we are gonna you know, 34 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna talk about sex, 35 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about corruption, and then we're gonna talk 36 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: about more sex, and then we might throw in a 37 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: little murder, because that's what this is. Tonight. We are 38 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: going to be talking about the Long Island serial Killer 39 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: in a way that has not been discussed that I 40 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: think is prevalent, because when you're an investigator, everything matters, 41 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: and if you are not up to speed on the 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: Long Island serial Killer, we have some other episodes that 43 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: experts can bring you up to speed very quickly. But 44 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: tonight we're not doing the background. We're going to start 45 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: right here from where we are and to help us 46 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: break down sex parties, sex workers, police corruption and the 47 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: role that these play in the Long Island serial killer investigation. 48 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: We have two guests, the one and only Joshua Schiffer, 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: Georgia State Law School grad, former public defender, now in 50 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: private practice. He's a regular on Court TV with Judge Ashley, 51 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: and he bases his whole career on Ben Franklin's doing 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: well by doing good. We have with US TV hosts 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: and executive producer of investigation Discovery True Crime with Aphroditi Jones. 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: She's a best selling New York Times author. She was 55 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: an investigative reporter with Fox News. She was also a 56 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: crime correspondent with America's Most Wanted and y'all know she 57 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: has a panage of telling it like it is. 58 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: Hey, Cheryl, So nice to be with you tonight. 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 3: Hey, Matt, thank you so much, an afrod. I'm just thrilled. 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 3: I've got a giant smile on my face seeing you, Matt. 61 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: This is just awesome And what a subject this is 62 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: as juicy as he guess. 63 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely, sex love, murder without the loves. 64 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 3: Or a weird kind of love. It's not a love 65 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 3: that I'm down with. 66 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: But clearly yeah, now there's a little. 67 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 3: Population out there where this is real, familiar territory. 68 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called love of nastiness, is what I think 69 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: it is. 70 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: Hey, I'd watch that show Love and Nastiness. Listen. I 71 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: tell people all the time there's no such thing as 72 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: a part time serial killer, rapist or child predator. But 73 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: there's also no such thing as a part time pervert. 74 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: They are constantly researching, hunting parties, hunting people, buying things, 75 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: developing their own kits and that sort of thing. This 76 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: is something they do all the time. Let me tell 77 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: you something. If you have to build a special room 78 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: in your house to host any type of hobby, that 79 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: tells you right there how involved you are. 80 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: One of the things that you know people need to 81 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: understand is this is so far removed from what psychologists 82 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 3: and mental health professionals would consider normal or healthy sexual behavior. 83 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 3: It's shocking now to hear everybody out there is going, oh, 84 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: he was just such a quiet, normal guy and nothing 85 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: was wrong except we keep fighting out about these things 86 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: like visitors to the basement that aren't allowed to go 87 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: back there, and some other stuff that just doesn't make sense. 88 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: You're percent right. These people that are inappropriately sexually developed 89 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 3: and act inappropriately or criminally when it comes to their 90 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 3: sexual activities, they leave huge trails. It is a time consuming, 91 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 3: lifestyle consuming interest and it's a small percentage of the community, 92 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 3: but it's there. And that's the important part. People know 93 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: a lot more about these allegations than they've come out 94 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 3: and talked about. And hopefully, with some good police work, 95 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 3: we're gonna we're gonna get these facts firmed up well. 96 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 2: And that's the thing I mean, Cheryl, when you talk 97 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: about this, no such thing as a part time pervert. 98 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: There's no such thing as a part time serial killer. 99 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: In this case, you know, you have the serial killer 100 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: meets a perverted Suffolk County chief of police who these 101 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: two forces collide and ultimately I believe these two many 102 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: each other. I believe that this guy Burke, who went 103 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 2: to prison for his sex crimes in this small community 104 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: that we're talking about, swingers, perverse sexual orgies, whatever's going 105 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: on with these people. They he had the description of 106 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: this killer. He knew this killer was a huge giant 107 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 2: of a man. How many people with that description would fit. 108 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: That's what I want to know, Cheryl, that's an excellent point. 109 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: And I want to say this to both of you. 110 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: Both of you, especially in your hometowns, are recognized people. 111 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: People know who you are. Aphrodite Jones. If I go 112 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: into a restaurant and you are in there, I know 113 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: you immediately. Joshua, there are posts and means about your 114 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: glasses alone. If I go to try to not and 115 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: the two of you are there, we're going to look 116 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: at each other and be like, oh, okay, well we're 117 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: never going to speak of this because it's the community 118 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: is too small. It's too small. There's no way they 119 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: didn't run into each other. 120 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 4: Possibly it's my old joke as to why I could 121 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 4: never ever go to one of those clubs, even if 122 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 4: I wanted to, because I'd be afraid I'd turn around 123 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 4: and the mask would come out and be like, hey, Judge, yeah, no. 124 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 3: Your wife really is nice. I'll see him. 125 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: No, you want to do that exactly. 126 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 3: So take a city the size of Atlanta, which depends 127 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: on where you want to set the boundaries is you know, 128 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 3: a million people, three million people. You're talking about a 129 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 3: community of active sexual swappers that you're going to list 130 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: in the thousands because it really is an insular community. 131 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 3: I'm familiar with it, unfortunately, due to some casework, and 132 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: I actually did a lot of work in the adult 133 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: entertainment space early in my career due to a friend 134 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: of mine being an executive in it. And people understand 135 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 3: the money, the popularity, the exclusivity that people will pay 136 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: for in order to get involved in some of these activities. 137 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: And it boggles the mind that everybody involved in the 138 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 3: sex swapping universe of Long Island wasn't aware there was 139 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: a serial killer in their midst. So I'm with you. 140 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: These people knew about each other, knew what they were 141 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 3: supposed to be looking out for, and this was a 142 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: topic of conversation for over a decade. 143 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, the former chief of Police, James Burke. Now you've 144 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: got more than one case that you know, if you're 145 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: any kind of investigator, has got to be linked together. 146 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: You know it in your gut, right, Yeah. 147 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: I mean you don't just have all these bodies turn 148 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: up on Yoga Beach and there's no connection. Especially three 149 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: of them are found on the same day. 150 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: Come on, okay, and then you got achieve the police 151 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: say into the FBI, nay, we don't need your help. Well, 152 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: anybody that looks at that would say, wait a minute, 153 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: this guy doesn't want the FBI's help for what reason. 154 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 3: Like I understand a little bit of turf war, but 155 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 3: come on, now, these are federal resources for what is 156 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 3: I guarantee an economically strap police department. They want more bodies, 157 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: they want more technology. Why you say no when facing 158 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 3: an ultracomplex, horrific crime that's gripped your community. No, man 159 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 3: doesn't pass the snip the smell test, not at all. 160 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: And here's the thing. Even the judge when this guy 161 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: was a later sentenced for his crimes, his sex crimes, 162 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 2: you know, cover up rather of sex crimes, he said, 163 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: it was mind boggling to him that this man turned 164 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: down the FBI and sent him away. And you know 165 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 2: there's early evidence early he's doing whatever he can to 166 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: subvert justice because he's got his own crimes to cover up. 167 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: He sure don't want him in his house, I can 168 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: tell you that. And by house I mean police department, 169 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: because you know here he starts as a patrolman, in 170 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: eighty six, he's promoted to sergeant by ninety one. By 171 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: two thousand, he's a lieutenant. I mean, he is going 172 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: up the ladder, this guy. 173 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: And you never know if he had other people that 174 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 3: he had worked with during those formative years that were 175 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 3: also part of this or showing him the ropes as 176 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: to how you hide stuff. You know how much I 177 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: love my police. I represent a bunch of them, and 178 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 3: they love nothing more than suing and going after the 179 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 3: bad cops that hurt everybody. And I won't be surprised 180 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: if we learned some additional names of people that might 181 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: have brushed up against this that are no longer in 182 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 3: law enforcement. 183 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: And you know, when you look at a person's record, 184 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: there are some things that are going to stick out 185 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: with this guy. And he had some ias where he 186 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: violated a person's civil rights, that he obstructed justice, but 187 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: if you look at why those rights were violated. Someone 188 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: stole a bag from him that he used at the gym, 189 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: and in that bag were sex toys and some other items. 190 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 191 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: The other item, Cheryl, was a video tape of women 192 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: who were bound and gagged and being sexually tormented. That's 193 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: what was on that video tap that was in that 194 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: gym bag. 195 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: Now you see how she talks, That's how you know 196 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: something is relevant. So yes, absolutely, he doesn't want you 197 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 1: to know the porn that he has, as well as 198 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: the viagra as well as the sex toys, because you're 199 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: gonna now find something out about me. And what you're 200 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: finding out about me is I can't hide it. This 201 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: stuff isn't at home in the secret box on top 202 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: of the shelf, on the back end of the closet. 203 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: This is in my gym bag, in my police car. 204 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: He takes that. You know, that heroin addict that lobed 205 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: the young heroin addict and practically beats him to death, 206 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: and a subordinate officer or rookie cop system, you got 207 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 2: to stop. I mean, this man was fearless. He felt 208 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: he was untouchable. 209 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: He felt he. 210 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: Could do whatever he wanted. And I guess it didn't matter. 211 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: Harry had whatever he could beat him a pope, and 212 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: he did. 213 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: And I think it reflects on one of the problems 214 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: with our underpaid officers and undersupport law enforcement. If we 215 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 3: had better funding for law enforcement, we wouldn't end up 216 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: with these institutionalized guys that sneak through and never get 217 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 3: called out for their bad stuff. If you want to 218 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 3: get real existential meta on this, this is the perfect 219 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 3: reason why we need to pay police officers double their 220 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: salary and make that job aspirational, make it so that 221 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 3: we were fighting would be good cops. Amen. 222 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: Amen. 223 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: So in nineteen ninety five, there's an ia where then 224 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 1: sergeant Bert had had a month long relationship with a 225 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: convicted prostitute and drug dealer. Now here's the deal, y'all 226 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: all know, for years before somebody's ever arrested, there are rumors, 227 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: especially in law enforcement. This came to no shock from 228 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: the people that he worked with, No because. 229 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: They thought he was already a sociopath, the way he 230 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: acted around the office, and you know, you know he 231 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 2: had Later we find out from people who came forward 232 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 2: that he had set up a makeshift makeshift bar in 233 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: his office that people were drinking at night. The guy 234 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 2: was using staff members to chase his ex girlfriend and 235 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: her exes around and follow and I don't know what 236 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 2: all was going on there. I mean they literally described 237 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: him as somebody who was had a reign of terror 238 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: in his force. He had twenty two hundred people working 239 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 2: for him. Think about the power that this man wielded, 240 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: and it's written the people to and demoted people that 241 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: he might. 242 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: And Joshua, I want to ask you a question as 243 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: a as a defense attorney. You know when somebody makes 244 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: a threat and it's kind of veil, like, oh, I 245 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: could just kill my husband, but they're not meaning that. 246 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: But he was so specific, he threatened to kill someone 247 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: with tainted heroin. 248 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 3: The inability of the system to identify and appropriately discipline 249 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: officers like this is at the heart of the valid 250 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 3: arguments we hear from the anti police, anti law because unfortunately, 251 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 3: these things happen and we see a twenty two hundred 252 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: person department that can't rid itself of this cancer. And 253 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 3: that's because of the personal relationships and the fear and 254 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 3: the intimidation. Think about it, if you're that good spouse 255 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 3: that just goes to work, you're gonna go home and say, hey, 256 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 3: my boss was doing all kinds of hinky stuff behind 257 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 3: the back, involved in sex and people, you know, and 258 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 3: he's still got to be there. You don't want to 259 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 3: tell your wife that you will you will. You don't 260 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: want your family to worry about that. So it's just 261 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 3: another way that these kind of people hide in plain sight, 262 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 3: and everybody gives him the pass until they finally get 263 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 3: the bandage ripped off with a tragedy like this, and 264 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: it's awful, and it's a tiny minority of officers, and 265 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 3: it would be in any industry. We just can't miss 266 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 3: it for. 267 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: What it is one hundred percent well stated. 268 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: And that's the thing, you know, Cheryl, I mean, you 269 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: have bad apples. And you know, the first book I 270 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: ever wrote was called The FBI Killer. It was the 271 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: first and only that I know of FBI agent history 272 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: who went to prison for a murder. He cupped a 273 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: manslaughter plate. He killed his informant, Susan Daniel Smith in 274 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: eastern Kentucky, Apple Lasia. And in essence, had he not 275 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: failed his polygraph, had he not been pursued by other 276 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: law enforcement, he was getting away with that. He was 277 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: getting away with that murder one hundred percent. And it 278 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: was because he had a partner who kept his mouth shut, 279 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: all right when the girl went missing. The young woman 280 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: went missing, she was pregnant and threatening him. The partner, 281 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: Ron Poole, an FBI agent, knew all about it, and 282 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: nobody comes forward. So this is, you know, this is uh, 283 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: and that's not that's again it's a it's a bad apple, 284 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 2: it's a bad seed. But those are the kind of 285 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: things that we've got to suss out. And in this case, 286 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: look what happened. You have all these women who were 287 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: murdered in Long Island. I don't care if they're sex workers, 288 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: I don't care what they are. These are beautiful young 289 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: women who are murdered and discarded and that that cop, 290 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: James Burke, has their blood on his hands, in my opinion. 291 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: The FBI, Alfred Hill, other people, other experts even said 292 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: this looks like a cop might be involved. And James Burke, 293 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: after he violates somebody's civil rights, he's no longer chief 294 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: of police, he gets punished, he gets out. How in 295 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: the world does he not know that he is under 296 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: such a microscope when he decides to go into a park, 297 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: a veterans memorial park there in Susset County and offers 298 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: an undercover agent a sex act, exposes himself and then 299 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: is arrested again. 300 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: It really is something where since I do so much 301 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 3: mental health, the inability to control your impulses, there's a 302 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: legitimate issue and that really it's the only explanation I 303 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 3: can come to. 304 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 2: But also but also let me and let me introduct 305 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: for a second. It's also, in my opinion, he enjoyed 306 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 2: the idea that he thought he could continue to get 307 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: away with this in his hometown, his home church. 308 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 3: Absolutely there was some self satisfaction and self soothing of hey, 309 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: I'm so smart, I can do this. And I think 310 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 3: that that's something he shares with the suspect in this case, 311 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: because it's exact kind of corollary behavior of hey, as 312 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 3: long as I keep all those external optics looking the 313 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 3: same and looking smooth, I can get away literally with murder. 314 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: And we see that comfort level with a lot of 315 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 3: these more sophisticated offenders is that they really get comfortable 316 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: in their process, and unfortunately it's when they make an 317 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 3: air that law enforcement really has an opportunity to catch them. 318 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: And in this case, with everything that's gone together, it 319 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: doesn't surprise me that it took so long for an 320 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 3: arrest to be made. My real question is a practitioning 321 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 3: or practicing criminal defense lawyer and a citizen who wants justice, 322 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 3: is what's the effect of this bad police and gonna 323 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 3: be on the prosecution? Is this ham stringing a prosecution 324 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: in the way where it can't recover. I'd hate that, 325 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: But the best appeals are made on the worst facts. 326 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 3: In this case has horrific facts. 327 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: Both of you made an excellent point in Just a Piggyback. 328 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: When he's arrested, he asked them, don't you know who 329 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: I am? 330 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: I am right? Oh my god? Do you know who 331 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: I am? He tries to use his former status as 332 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: chief of police to say, hey, better keep your hands off. 333 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 3: You know. I love that, and we see that with 334 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 3: ego all the time. And it's when in any public 335 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 3: corruption investigation anything where you've got someone used to being 336 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: cow tawbed too and having their influence in power respect, 337 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 3: it's almost shocking to them that a plebeian would come 338 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,479 Speaker 3: up and accuse them of some wrongdoing or demand a 339 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 3: mandatory response. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry, No, man's above 340 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 3: the law. Above the law. That's a great thing about 341 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 3: this country. It's not a perfect system, but I haven't 342 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 3: found one better. 343 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: Amen to that, and let's move on now. So he 344 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: when he's chief of police, he's got some cases that again, 345 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: anybody looking at them with an investigative leans should see 346 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: that there's got to be a connection. There just has 347 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: to be. He doesn't want outside help, okay, but it 348 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: also looks like he's not doing anything to solve these 349 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: cases that families have said they went years without hearing 350 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: anything from anybody, that nothing was being done, and when 351 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: the first bodies are found, it's almost a fluke. 352 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 3: And hopefully some statistical and historical analysis of messages and 353 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 3: orders is going to show his specific disparate treatment of 354 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 3: this file as opposed to other files where he was 355 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 3: pursuing justice and was ordering people to do things. And 356 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 3: I'll be really interested to find out what cases never 357 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: got past step one because of his potential involvement. Were 358 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 3: there other complaints involving him, or uh, you know people 359 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 3: that could have been the Long Island serial killer that 360 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: he said, whoa, let's let's not pay any attention or 361 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: sign any resources to that. That's going to be a 362 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 3: fascinating research project. 363 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: And you know, I think when you when you talk 364 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: about this, it makes me, it makes me wonder, you're 365 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: probably right that he would have stayed away from anything 366 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: that's going to point the fingerback at him regarding suspects 367 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 2: within that field with sex workers, with swingers, with you know, 368 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 2: any complaints of a rape. He's going to stay away 369 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 2: from it. 370 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: Well, you all know how the FBI works. They're going 371 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: to interview everybody, and they're going to take those notes 372 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: and they're going to file those notes. Will you talk 373 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: to ten sex workers? And what if they said, well, 374 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: we don't know anything about the killer, but we know 375 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: the chief of police. 376 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 3: And it's those investigations that are so easy for another 377 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 3: agency just kind of pushed to the side because it 378 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: didn't relate to the suspect that we know. It was 379 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 3: about somebody else, So we're going to put that into 380 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 3: somebody else pile. And I'm not saying it's bad intent, 381 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 3: even though it kind of can look like that. But 382 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 3: when the resources aren't applied, those leads basically never existed. 383 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: And for all we know, there were multiple investigatory calls, notes, 384 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: reports happening concurrently with this that were specifically disregarded or 385 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: pushed to the side, either explicitly or inherently. And I 386 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 3: really hope the FBI gets to the bottom of it 387 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 3: because that would solve a lot of the problems. 388 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, I said from day one, I think this thing 389 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: is going to be deeper and wider and uglier than 390 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: most people. Understand. Let's talk about some of his computer 391 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: searches just for a second, and this is Rex Huerman 392 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about. He looked up things hundreds, now hundreds 393 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: of searches on raping, torturing women, child porn, rape porn. 394 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: He looked up the Long Island serial killer victims and 395 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: their families. He googled other serial killers. He in a 396 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: fourteen month period of time, looked up over two hundred 397 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: times the Gilgo Beach investigation. I mean, it just goes 398 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: on and on, but it gets more. Twisted girls begging 399 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: for rape, teen girl begging for rape, pretty girl with 400 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: a bruised face, tortured redhead porn, ten year old schoolgirl, 401 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: skinny redheaded girl, tied up porn, short fat girl tied 402 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: up porn, Asian twink, tied up porn, girl, hogtied tortured porn. 403 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: There's a theme. There's a clear, undeniable theme. And I 404 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: want to say, again, grown people doing grown people's things 405 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: I have no problem with. But I want to be 406 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: very clear on one thing. I've been to his home. 407 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: I walked up and knocked owned the door. I've seen 408 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: it up close and I'm just going to tell the 409 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: two of you and everybody listening to me right now. 410 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: If Walt McCollum came to me and said, Hey, we're 411 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: gonna go to a sex party and it's gonna be 412 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: fabulous and there's gonna be people from New York City there, 413 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: what I would have in my mind is not that house. 414 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: You better be taking me. I'm serious now. I mean 415 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: I have known Walt since high school, and if he 416 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 1: rolled me up in front of that house, I'll have 417 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: sex with you here in this car, but I ain't 418 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: going in that house. 419 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 3: It's weird because every architect I've ever known, you know, 420 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 3: their lifestyle manifests their career. They tend to be really 421 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 3: into how design works and appearance. That's just another one 422 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: of those incongruities that doesn't land well with me. And 423 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 3: I think it's because he spent so much have his 424 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 3: bandwidth hiding and being someone that no one can find 425 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 3: a research. 426 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: Let me let me say this. I was also at 427 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: the house, and I was there when the police were 428 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 2: doing the searches. I'm and number one. I talked to 429 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: a number of the neighbors and as we know, the 430 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: neighbors had no idea what was going on in there 431 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: or nor did they know him, They said, you know, 432 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: they'd see him walking in the train station in a suit, 433 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 2: never talk to anyone. 434 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: Uh. 435 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 2: The neighbor who lived directly across the street talked to 436 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: me and told me that, you know, he would see 437 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 2: strange things like the rex human would be burning stuff 438 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 2: in the driveway, you know. But but it was wood. 439 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: It wasn't It wasn't, but it was too much of it. 440 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 2: It just seemed weird, but not to the extent that 441 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: boy should check this ass out or the guy out. 442 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: But the house was an icere like in the neighborhood. 443 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: You look at it and you're thinking, this thing is 444 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 2: like you say, Cheryl's right. 445 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that is not what I would have ever 446 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: picked for a sex party. Like it just I don't know, 447 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what I would have in my mind. 448 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 1: I've never been to a sex party, but in my head, 449 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: I need the plaza, y'all. I mean, like I need 450 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: everything to be perfect. 451 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: But whe shut. 452 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: You know, it's got to have a little something to it, 453 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: not something that I think needs to be condemned. And 454 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: it just is shocking to me that that would be 455 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: hosted there without everybody that attended talking about it. Again, 456 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: this is a small world. I ran into somebody that 457 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: I knew in Icy Strait's Alaska. I tell my children 458 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: all the time, the world is so small. There's no 459 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: way you're going to go out there and misbehave and 460 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: people do not know it. There's just no way. And 461 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: that's before the Internet that was true. So I'm just 462 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: telling you now, good luck to the two of y'all, 463 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: because there's no way by angels that it is not 464 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: going to be for God and country to read about 465 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: in about two minutes. 466 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 3: And it's not just that, it's the fact that there 467 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 3: are then subgroups within these groups. And I firmly believe 468 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 3: that while lots of times this is a solo activity, 469 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 3: I find it very difficult to believe his alleged enjoyment 470 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: of all the crimes he committed was a solo activity 471 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: because there's so much of an urge to share that 472 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 3: kind of sexual deviancy. I think that the likelihood of 473 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 3: other people being witness to some of this is way 474 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 3: bigger than we're giving credence to. And I think that 475 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: explains a lot about what's going on with his wife, 476 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 3: which is just fascinating from a criminal perspective. We literally 477 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 3: have one of the best witnesses slash suspects making a 478 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 3: film now about all this and is that a distraction? 479 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 3: Is that a defense? What is going on with that? 480 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 2: That's a good question, that is a great question. 481 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: I say, let her do it, let her tall that 482 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: is state's evidence as far as I'm concarned. Talk it up, sister. 483 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 2: But you know, she's accused of being a swinger with him, 484 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: and she's accused. You know, there are witnesses who have 485 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: said that she did take part or she was upstairs 486 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: while it was going on in the house, so she 487 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 2: knew something is wrong. She knew something, and she didn't 488 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: maybe know he was a murderer, but she knew he 489 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 2: was a perverb and that there were there stuff that 490 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 2: in my opinion, she had to know that it was 491 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 2: sexually twisted and that perhaps violence was involved in the house. 492 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: I think that that dynamic deserves a lot more scrutiny because, 493 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 3: you know, is it a day Bell kind of thing 494 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 3: where it appears that they were kind of coequal together 495 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: in their crimes, or is it the dominant submissive where 496 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 3: they're playing this role playing existence that we don't know 497 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: the rules of. They could make it up themselves, but 498 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: it's a sandbox. You can have all kinds of crazy 499 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: relationships about truth and falsity and making things up. That's 500 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 3: how a lot of kind of the extreme sexual universe 501 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 3: can I don't want to use the phrase get away 502 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 3: with it, but justify their activities is by casting it 503 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 3: as fantasy, which is then protected by the First Amendment, 504 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 3: rather than acknowledging the perient nature and absolutely illegal concept 505 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 3: of some of the things they claim to enjoy. Lots 506 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 3: of people don't understand this. It is legal to make 507 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 3: pornography and things that indicate or show illegal acts but 508 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 3: are not real people, and it's delicate First Amendment stuff. 509 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,959 Speaker 3: There aren't good answers for it. 510 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 1: You said very clearly, you feel like if you had 511 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: ever walked into any of those clubs in Atlanta that 512 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: you would quite possibly see a judge. So again, then 513 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: the very next Monday, you're going to be in front 514 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: of that person you know, objection you're on her, and 515 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: they're going to say, well, you weren't objecting Saturday. You know, 516 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: you've got this whole Your lifestyle is now a part 517 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: of your career, which gets muddied a little bit. I 518 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 1: would think, well, then you might get some you know, 519 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: go ahead and sustain you know, they might give you 520 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: a little extra because now you're in this subworld that 521 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: I don't know anything about, sitting at the prosecution table going, 522 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: I can't believe she just let him get away with that, 523 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: or she's substaining that motion like that didn't make any 524 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: sense to me. 525 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: When I did the Epstein. When we were working on Epstein, 526 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 3: and people kept on asking us about the lists of 527 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,239 Speaker 3: pass who's on the path, who flew down there, and 528 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 3: I'm like, man, here the lists, and they're not names, 529 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 3: we don't know, they're super famous people. And we all 530 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: thought it was absolutely reasonable that some of these very sophisticated, 531 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: lots to lose people would be involved in non traditional 532 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 3: sexual activities. To be very very. 533 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: Polite, and here's the thing when you bring up Epstein, 534 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: Josh and Cheryl, you know, I went to the Elaine 535 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: Maxwell trial in New York and attended the whole thing. 536 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 2: Let me tell you something. I listened to those young 537 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 2: women that now are older women that we're talking about, 538 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: how traumatized they were as young women. They seem some 539 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: of them to be living in that past still, but 540 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: Elaine Maxwell was his john. Both road participated absolutely. If 541 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: not for her, these young girls would not have come 542 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: to see an old man right themselves. And so the 543 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: connection here, I think, is what was the role of 544 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: human's wife in making people feel comfortable in that house? 545 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: Because that was Blaine Maxwell did for Epstein. 546 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 3: Every prostitution brothel of any size has a house mom. 547 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 3: Every single adult entertainment club in America has a house mom. 548 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 3: If you watch the y s ltrial this month, the 549 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: second state's witness was the house mom at the strip 550 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: club where one of the crimes occur. Because even though 551 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 3: if you're not familiar with it, for a certain part 552 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 3: of America, this sexual marketplace is part of their regular 553 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 3: daily existence. It's their common courtesy. Think about OnlyFans and 554 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 3: how huge it is, and how celebrities that we never 555 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 3: even thought of exposing themselves make millions of dollars a month. 556 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 3: So the fact that Rex and other people allegedly found 557 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 3: a robust support system, however small but deeply interconnected, that's 558 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 3: not the surprise. The surprise is and the question is 559 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 3: how much did that universe protect criminals when they're murdering 560 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 3: sex workers, because do you expect them to come out 561 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 3: and really participate with questions, answers, admissions. No, they might 562 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 3: have had a relation with that person. A lot of 563 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 3: this stuff is quasi anonymous or fully anonymous, So you 564 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 3: don't want to be bringing, you know, castigation down on 565 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 3: you even by acknowledging that you know about this stuff. 566 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: Well, here's a question for both of you. We had 567 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: John ray One not long ago, and he talks about 568 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: some of the witnesses that have come forward that have 569 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: signed affidavits that said they were at sex parties at 570 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: that house, and one of them specifically said that she 571 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: was taken there by a NYPD police officer. So if 572 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: you've got police at these parties actively participating, they're not 573 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: trying to bust this thing up. They're not trying to 574 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: stop it or actively protective. 575 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 3: You know that every city has their poker games. A 576 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 3: lot of those poker games have protection from law enforcement 577 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 3: because law enforcement's either involved or on the take, or 578 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 3: there's some friend of a friend of a friend. The 579 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 3: same as with Purian activities and sex. It is a 580 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 3: well known secret that the best stakehouse is in Atlanta. 581 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 3: Happen to have a population of drop dead gorgeous women 582 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 3: hanging out there during conventions that would love to talk 583 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 3: to anybody from out of town. And they're very nice, 584 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 3: and they make a lot of money providing consensual companionship 585 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: to America's movers, shakers, doctors, lawyers, bankers, business people. And 586 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 3: it is an open secret. And Mac, I know, you 587 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 3: know a couple of them restaurants. 588 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 2: You know where I'm going. 589 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: I sure do, Sugar. Absolutely, it is no question. 590 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 3: When I go there at eleven o'clock at night what 591 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 3: I'm looking for. And I'd get swarmed if I walked 592 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 3: into I'm at eleven o'clock at night looking like I'm 593 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 3: traveling business. 594 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: But you know, seriously, that's the thing that again blows 595 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: my mind. Going back to the former chief of police Burke, 596 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: why would you not go out of town unless it 597 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: was just ego driven because you could go to Miami, Honey, 598 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: Don't nobody know you in Miami. Nobody knows you in 599 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: Kansas City, had the time of your life. You know, 600 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: grown people can do grown people things. 601 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. Remember he got caught in the 602 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 2: nineties having sex in his uniform in his police car. 603 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 2: All right, with a sex worker. He enjoyed that domination 604 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: over the sex worker, using his position as an authority 605 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: in the law, okay, and am using it. He enjoyed that, 606 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: So why wouldn't he go out and continue to enjoy 607 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,959 Speaker 2: it and continue to throw his weight around even though 608 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: he spent time in prison for what he did to 609 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 2: that heroinautic covering up his dirty sexual secrets. Okay, he's 610 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 2: been able to cover that up all these years. He's 611 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 2: been able to keep us from knowing who the serial 612 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 2: killer is that he's supposed to be looking for in 613 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 2: Yogo Beach. So hey, he's still empowered by his own 614 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: ego and his own perverse drives, and he's going to 615 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: keep doing it right. 616 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 3: Where he's at, absolutely, And I want to throw one 617 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 3: more wrench into this dynamic. And I'm friends with a 618 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 3: lot of law enforcement and their spouses that there's a 619 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 3: little bit of the badge bunny involved, where there is 620 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 3: a natural attraction between some people about you know, my 621 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,439 Speaker 3: spouse wears a uniform. And I can tell you many 622 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 3: stories of extraordinarily consensual relations occurring between members of law 623 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 3: enforcement and their paramours that almost all the time are 624 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 3: just laughed off and don't do that again, and don't 625 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 3: get caught, and you know, turn your radio off. But 626 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 3: it's that exact, very accepted dynamic, you know. I think 627 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 3: we all understand that that's part of how attraction works, 628 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 3: is what the other person does for a living. But 629 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 3: the spectrum eventually gets into the dynamic of power and 630 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,720 Speaker 3: control and this very unhealthy stuff because clearly this police 631 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 3: officer wanted to or got off on his power trip, 632 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 3: on his power and influence. And there's your problem, y'all. 633 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 3: You can't have that. 634 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: Well, looking at Humerin, there is evidence of bisexuality, being 635 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: a swinger, going to sex clubs, hosting sex parties, going 636 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: to prostitutes, having threesomes, orgies, s and m bondage. He's 637 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,439 Speaker 1: got the works. Nothing was off the table with this man. 638 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: It would appear just from his Internet searches alone, from 639 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 1: what some of the witnesses are saying that are coming forward. 640 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 1: So again, the idea that you've got a x chiev 641 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: of police that could not hide what he was about 642 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: and what he was into. I find that extraordinarily unbelievable 643 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: that he would not know from other sex workers what 644 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: was going on in that house. 645 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 2: He had to have known about it. I don't know 646 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 2: that he was in the house, okay, but he knew 647 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: about it, and he met or knew who this monster was. 648 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 2: Because there's no way you've learned miss somebody that tall 649 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 2: and that big and think, oh no, it has nothing 650 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: to do with the suspect that's been described. No, no, no, 651 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: no no. 652 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 3: He knew, my opinion, and to deny it is willful blindness. 653 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 3: And I think we can all show that pretty easily. 654 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,439 Speaker 3: There's no way, with the physical description and the importance 655 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 3: the community was placing on dead women being found on 656 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 3: the local beach that he didn't know all about this. 657 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 3: And part of me is really shocked that nothing came about, 658 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 3: you know, even earlier, because now in retrospect we look 659 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 3: at this and we're like, geez, no, wonder those dots 660 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 3: connect super cleanly. 661 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: But you know, you take anything. Let's say that the 662 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: chief of police loves fly fishing or peyton or whatever 663 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: they may love to do as a hobby. If all 664 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: of a sudden, one fly fisherman is killed and shows 665 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: up in your area, and then a second, and a 666 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: third and a fourth, you should be the main one 667 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: coming forward going Wait a minute, we have to look 668 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,240 Speaker 1: at this. This is too odd, this is too unusual. Again, 669 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: given his hobby of going to sex workers, you would 670 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: think the first one that showed up dead, the second 671 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: one that showed up dead, the third one that showed 672 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: up dead, the fourth that showed up dead, he alone 673 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: would have even been saying to other people, what is 674 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 1: going on, Like, we need to get a task force 675 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: maybe sublevel to look at this. We need to put 676 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: some people under cover out there to see what's going on. 677 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: What's the word on the street. One thing I can 678 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: absolutely tell you about sex workers is they've got the 679 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: pulse of the street. They know they know who's there. 680 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: So a lot of times, if we have somebody that 681 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: goes missing, or we have somebody that we believe we 682 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: may have a serial killer, go ask them who's been here. 683 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: Anybody give you extra one hundred bucks to strangle them, 684 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: Anybody give you x hundred dollars to act like something 685 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: or do something really unusual, they will tell you because 686 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:09,959 Speaker 1: they know who's in your tail. 687 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 3: It's a sad commentary, but that's actually one of the 688 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 3: most accurate images that we see in entertainment are the 689 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 3: sex workers that really do have that pulse of the 690 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 3: street because they live in all the circles. They speak 691 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: dope dealer, homeless guy, just like they speak banker, lawyer, doctor, 692 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 3: and they can function across all those different levels of society. 693 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 3: And because it's such an intimate service that they provide, 694 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 3: they are privy to some outrageous stuff. I worked on 695 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 3: a very prominent brothel case in Land about twenty years ago. 696 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 3: The black book had every important politician and lawyer in 697 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 3: it going back, and it of course got squashed and squished. 698 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 3: But the ladies, they were the best resource for the 699 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,720 Speaker 3: drama and they knew everybody's votes on the floor. 700 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 2: Let me say this, and we can't forget this the 701 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,439 Speaker 2: sex workers, because it was sex workers who were killed. 702 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 2: And we know about this forever, never decades. You know, 703 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 2: you have people that are just not interested, okay, because 704 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 2: it was a sex worker who was killed. And when 705 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 2: I say not interested, I'm talking about in particular the police, 706 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 2: because hey, who cares about these women anyway? You know, 707 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: they asked for it. That mentality, or they put themselves 708 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 2: in a position to be vulnerable. That mentality has been 709 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: around from the beginning of time. 710 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 3: Okay. 711 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: And then you have who's going to believe these sex workers. Okay, 712 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 2: who's going to believe that? Oh yeah, one of them 713 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 2: came forward and said she had dinner with you or men. 714 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 2: She's sure it was him because he was obsessed with 715 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 2: and got very excited by talking about who do you 716 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 2: think how do you think that the gig Beach killer 717 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 2: was able to get those bodies over there to that beach? 718 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 2: You think he brought him in burlap bags that were 719 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,919 Speaker 2: camouflaged and that sex where her got scared to death 720 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 2: and did something she'd never done before, which has asked 721 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 2: somebody to meet her in the parking lot. Later continues 722 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 2: to tell people that I think I had dinner with 723 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 2: the Yogo Beast serial killer. No one believed her. Nobody 724 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 2: believed her. 725 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 3: Why the historical and analogy couldn't be more clear. What's 726 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 3: the most famous worldwide serial killer of all time across 727 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 3: all Western cultures. 728 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,760 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper? And who did he target prostitutes? 729 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 5: Yeah, and they still don't know whether he was a 730 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 5: poor man or an unbelievably wealthy one with a lot 731 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 5: of great suspects coming from that upper echelon of sophisticated individuals, 732 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 5: and the law didn't want to talk to the prostitute. 733 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 3: What a fascinating analogy to exactly what we're seeing. 734 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: And I don't think Aphrodite you could have said it 735 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: any better. And Joshua obviously again I'm agreeing with both 736 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 1: of you one hundred percent. But my point is going 737 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,399 Speaker 1: back to Burke for a minute. With his proclivity of 738 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: going to sex workers, I again say that he not 739 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: only as a chief of police, but as somebody that 740 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: frequenting their company, had an obligation to go to them 741 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: one on one and say, who has anybody scared you? 742 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: Because let me tell you something, I guarantee there's one 743 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: or more that had an interaction with Rex Human that said, 744 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: I ain't gonna f with that guy. He freaks me out. 745 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,800 Speaker 1: He's too weird, he wants something too twisted, he's too violent, 746 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: he's too rough. Whatever. When a person who makes their 747 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: living dealing with people that want to do something to 748 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 1: them they won't do to their wives or girlfriends, if 749 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: she says she's not going to fool with this guy 750 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: should have been a red flag and Burke could have 751 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 1: got to him too. Steps. 752 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 2: Let's remember one thing. There are witnesses who saw Burke. Okay, 753 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 2: one of whom has said that he had rough sex 754 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 2: with her and she witnessed him take a woman, drag 755 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 2: her by her hair and throw her to the ground. 756 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,280 Speaker 2: So this guy Burke, James Burke, is a twisted pervert 757 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 2: who is sadistic. Okay, he is a sadistic sexual predator, 758 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 2: just like you're mean. 759 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I have four older sisters. Two were teachers 760 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,439 Speaker 1: who were flight attendants, then turn nurses, and I can 761 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: tell you, even with the things that they think they 762 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: might have been exposed to, they don't know this world. 763 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: They don't understand this dark back page back alley. Just 764 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: they don't. They don't know. 765 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 3: The amount of money that flows through adult legitimate businesses, 766 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 3: let alone less than legitimate businesinesses, is absolutely staggering. In Atlanta, 767 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 3: you are more likely to run into someone that works 768 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 3: in or around a perient business than you are an 769 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 3: employee of Coca Cola or Home Depot or NCR or 770 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 3: Mercedes Benz or any of the other giant employers. Because 771 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 3: we're a convention town, we're the biggest social destination for 772 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 3: hundreds of miles, and the downtown area makes a lot 773 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 3: of revenues based on people having a good time. So 774 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 3: people are shocked at the money that flows through with 775 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 3: a winking nod. 776 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: I mean again, you know, I don't have any problem 777 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: grown people doing grown people's stuff, making a living, no problem. 778 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: But when you get into I'm going to kill somebody 779 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: and I'm going to mutilate and destroy and toss out 780 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,239 Speaker 1: like trash, and you've got literally achieve a police that 781 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 1: could have by his own contacts. Now that's what I'm saying, 782 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: some people that could have found out some information and 783 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: he could have had this thing sewn up, I believe 784 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: pretty quick, and he chose not to do that. 785 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 2: The final thought I have is, let's get to the 786 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 2: bottom of not only what has happened to sex workers 787 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 2: and all of these Eleatin women in Yogo Beach, but 788 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,320 Speaker 2: the other possible women who have been killed by humormen 789 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 2: in South Carolina, in Las Vegas. I mean, let's put 790 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 2: this whole thing together, and we need a police force 791 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 2: that is not only in New York State, but helped 792 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 2: by the FBI, help by others to make these connections 793 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,720 Speaker 2: and understand that these women matter. They matter. 794 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 3: I kind of got two important takeaways from this. Number 795 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 3: one is the importance, just like Afrida is talking about 796 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 3: where we need a deep dive, We need justice, and 797 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 3: we need to get to the bottom of why so 798 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 3: much didn't happen that should have Considering all these facts 799 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 3: and connections which are now so apparent, how did we 800 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 3: possibly miss these? Where were the checks and balances to 801 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 3: make sure these kinds of crimes couldn't be hidden by 802 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 3: someone on the inside so easily, Because that's really what 803 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 3: it looks like. I find it impossible that this police 804 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,360 Speaker 3: officer wasn't well aware of what was going on, and 805 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,840 Speaker 3: man sure looks like he might have had some touches 806 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,480 Speaker 3: on the file. The other thing is, and this is 807 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 3: the ten thousand foot view, I hope that we can 808 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,360 Speaker 3: make something good out of this tragedy and put a 809 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 3: little bit more sunlight into this marketplace that we don't 810 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,879 Speaker 3: want to admit exists, and that's the adult universe. We 811 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 3: can't be afraid of it. We have to understand that 812 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 3: it deserves integrity and respect and some sunlight, because otherwise 813 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 3: we allow horrific things to happen. And so I hope 814 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,720 Speaker 3: we get a little bit more public recognition that these 815 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 3: people are out there, and that certainly these women who 816 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 3: are working in this you know deserve protection way more 817 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 3: than we do, and we treat them right now. 818 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: Aphrodite Jones and Joshua Schiffer, thank you so much for 819 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 1: talking about a topic that's not easy for everybody to 820 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,360 Speaker 1: talk about, but in this particular case I think is critical. 821 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I 822 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: always do with a quote, everything in the world is 823 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: about sex, except sex. Sex is about power, Oscar Wilde. 824 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.