1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for the number one 4 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: guy who sets our hearts a flutter. We are so 5 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: twitter painted for our super producer, mister Max Williams. 6 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 2: He's our number one number two. Is that a thing? 7 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: I kind of like it. You're more than number two, 8 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: You're number one in our hearts. Yeah. 9 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: For some reason, number one, number two makes me think 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: of I've gotta say it, my favorite coop. 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: You know, that's all right, that's Max. No, no, no, 12 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: everyone's favorite. 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Poop, which is it's funny. This is unrelated to anything, 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: but I saw quite recently a four year old absolutely 15 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: burned down an adult with the most vicious insult. The 16 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: four year old could think of, Oh, poopy head, poopy, 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: she said. She said someone I said, oh, you know, 18 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: don't I'm not going to give names because I'll get 19 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: in trouble, but oh, don't you want to come over 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: here and you know, give Auntie a hug? And then 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: she said, no, you're a poop. 22 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 2: And she said it was like just an old poop. 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: She said it was such vim. 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: And Visita like you could tell the she hadn't learned 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: the word MF yet. 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 2: You know, it's funny, dude, that that is an insult. 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: I guess it makes me think of like I love 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 2: Lucy when they go oh you old pooh, you know, yeah, oh. 29 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: Very lighthearted insults and sometimes lighthearted insults are a part 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: of flirting. You Well, that's mister Noel Brown. I am 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: ben Bollen. This is Part two of the Ridiculous History 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: of specifically Victorian flirting. Noel, what did we learn in 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: part one? 34 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: So much? We learned how to flirt via fan code 35 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: and postage stamp code, sending little sexy missives through the 36 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 2: mail and in person by fluttering our fan implement. 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: There's a one specific signal you can use. Oh so silly. 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: You put your fan on your right ear and tell 39 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: some what you have changed. 40 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: Oh, that's right, you have indeed changed. It's sort of 41 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: the Victorian version of looks maxing, or what do they 42 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: call it mogging? And or oh, geez, what's the other 43 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: word for it. We kind of suck cheeks in mogging. 44 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: It's looks maxing. Mogging is another word for it. It's 45 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: jen alpha stuff where you kind of suck your cheeks 46 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: in and sort of make that blue steel face like 47 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: from Zoolander, and sort of stroke your cheeks, you know, 48 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: with a two for four fingers and a thumb. 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: Okay, am I doing this right? Yeah? 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: Oh definitely. Yeah. You gotta stuck you cheeks in a 51 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: little more though, make make you know, cheek bones, lips, duckliss. Yeah, 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: it is a little more, a little on the ducklips side. Yep, 53 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: you got it there, Ben. 54 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: Okay, we're trying. Uh, you'll have to trust us because 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: we are an audio podcast. 56 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: We look ridiculous. 57 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: Yes, there's a whole history to it. We're also excited 58 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: to explore this with you folks. Uh we have our 59 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: own uh Maximill and I have our own, uh personal 60 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: ridiculous histories with flirting. I had a story just behind 61 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: the curtain on part one that, upon reconsideration, I asked 62 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: us to pull it from the air because. 63 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just for us, man, we get to 64 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: keep that particular flavor sauce in the family. As they say, well, 65 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: you know, we can maybe do a little low key. 66 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: It was basically just a description of you being flirted 67 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: upon by a lady during a social interaction, and you 68 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: maybe not until we discussed it after the fact, didn't 69 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 2: realize quite how horny a flirtation it was. And Beanie 70 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: Weenie's were involved, That's true. It was use your imagination, folks. 71 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: Fretty forward. Actually yeah, yeah, Well, when some lose some 72 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: the course of true love never did run smooth. If 73 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: somehow you are the person who is the subject of 74 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: that story, no love lost. And if you happen to 75 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: be hearing this, you know, what's up girl? So anyway, 76 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: we'll leave it there. Our first part of part two 77 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: here continues with Victorian flirtation methods because for many people 78 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: in the era, for women in particular, society was so oppressive. 79 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: You couldn't just come out and say what's up, Donathan Esquire? 80 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: No, you had there there was a certain, very rigidly 81 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 3: codified decorum that involved things like calling cards, and you know, 82 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: obviously this would make its way into business culture. 83 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: I think that's sort of the origin of that thing. 84 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 2: If we'd have like, you know, your name and business 85 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: and address and phone number and appropriate to you know, 86 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 2: contact information. But in the Victorian era these were referred 87 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: to as escort cards and ben it also reminds me 88 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: of another type of card that happened later that we 89 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: talked about in previous episodes of the dance card, the 90 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: idea of my dance card being full and only having 91 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: a certain number of slots for a fella to cut 92 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: a rug with you at certain you know, cotillion type events. 93 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: But we're getting ahead of ourselves there. What in fact 94 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,039 Speaker 2: was the Victorian escort card or flirtation card or a 95 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: acquaintance card. 96 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is this is great And I love 97 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: that callback and all to the dance card, because I 98 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: think we both always wondered whether that was a real. 99 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 2: Thing, very real, very real, a library book, like a 100 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: lending card, you know. 101 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's for dancing, Yeah, yeah, for you know, for 102 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: the ballroom. That's a great comparison as well. 103 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 2: So honestly, in Victorian time, dancing might have been considered scandalous, you. 104 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: Know, yeah yeah. And so if if the business card 105 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: or the calling card is the G rated thing, then 106 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: the dance card might would have been the PG thirteen thing. 107 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: And this is trending toward R rated the flirtation acquaintance 108 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: escort card. They were a purposeful kind of sexy play 109 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: on the calling card. And you would if you were. 110 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 1: This was only for members of the aristocracy, of course, 111 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: because who could afford to have this many different specific 112 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: printed cards. 113 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, the lettering alone and the card stock it's bone perhaps, 114 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: you know, with a nice seraphy text. 115 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, and the paperweight. So this is the issue here. 116 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: Escort cards would be like a very what we would 117 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: see is a very unsexy Valentine's Day card almost because 118 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: you would you would come by and you would say, 119 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, is Dame Algervine home? And they would, you know, 120 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: the butler or whomever would say referreely not, and often 121 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: the aristok the caller would realize they weren't home, and 122 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: they would say, well, tell that scrumptious little the toffee topop. 123 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: Too far? 124 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: What's the thing that Tell that scrumptious little strawberry trifle 125 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: that Lord Butterball is stopped by for a visit. And 126 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: then they would, uh, this is of. 127 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: Course all in Lord Butterball's had because those words would 128 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: not have been uttered aloud to the chaperone, who was 129 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: basically the gatekeeper of said lady person right. 130 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: It said, he would have made, you know, like a 131 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: stiff upper lip sniff and thanked the butler and then 132 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: dropped his calling card. But his calling card, the dame 133 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: would find out later, was actually his acquaintance or escorts card. 134 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: And escort cards were often used to encourage that kind 135 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: of secrecy that people really like in flirtation, because you know, 136 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: if you're a young woman, you've almost always got your sheperone. 137 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 2: That's right, which could be the butler in this situation, 138 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: which could be a family member, a brother, you know, 139 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: someone that again would kind of gatekeep this young woman 140 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: to make sure that she was not up to anything 141 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: untoward with a fella. So a young man could opt 142 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: to slip his crush an escort card, and in turn, 143 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: then she could respond via the signal detailed in the 144 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 2: card or return a card of her own in response. 145 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: And you're absolutely right with the Valentines comparison, because they 146 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: would have borderline greeting card ask messages which maybe was 147 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: more co opted from this type of language, you know, 148 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: as a joke, but things like may I have the 149 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: pleasure of seeing you home this evening, or something a 150 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: little more straight to the point, let's get acquainted for 151 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 2: fun and results. That is such an AKA, what a child? 152 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: What are these said results men. 153 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have to they have to be a child, 154 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: that's what they're talking about. But also, to your subtle 155 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: American psycho reference earlier, it sounds like a Patrick Bateman 156 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: pickup line, Let's get acquainted for fun and results. 157 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: In Bateman's case, results might be your you know, bloody discourse. 158 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, timely to buyse right. So a quick tangent here 159 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: just for film buffs. I'm sure you've run into this 160 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: to Nolan Max, have you? So? I've read the book 161 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: right by Brett Easton. Ella's someone to say and I. 162 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely pornographic, by the way, not for the faint of heart. 163 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: The movie is pg. Thirteen in comparison. 164 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, very good point. And the thing that is 165 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: not clear in either the novel nor in the film, 166 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: particularly in the film, I think, is whether Bateman is 167 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: actually doing any of those horrific. 168 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 2: Acts of violence, and whether or not he gets caught 169 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: a lot of you know, the book is in the 170 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: film definitely a satire of the excesses of nineteen eighties 171 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: Wall Street culture and just the absolute kind of vacuousness 172 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: of people in that strata, and the idea being that 173 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: he is or is not actually doing these things if 174 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 2: he is that people are so aloof and up their 175 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: own keysters that they're just not even noticing because no 176 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 2: one's paying attention to anybody else. 177 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm wondering, though, what do 178 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: you fall ben on whether or not he actually gave 179 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, I'm still I'm still wrestling with it 180 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: because there are a few there are a few moments, 181 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: especially in the film, where it seems that he's really 182 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: doing something, like when he has to wash his sheets 183 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: in the at the laundromat, right and they say there 184 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: are some stains. That's an outside person sightly, Yes, yeah, 185 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: but that's uh that that's the weird. 186 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 2: Uh. 187 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: The last note on this, because I know we have 188 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: to get to it. You know. Patrick Bateman Ian American 189 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: psycho looks a little bit like Josh Clark. 190 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: Oh, I see that. Just to take great great bone structure. 191 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: By the way, great cheekbones very looks maxing, Yes. 192 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: Very similar. Mouth. I think about people's mouths a lot, 193 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: which is what I would put on my acquaintance card. 194 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: Got a pretty mouth, which you definitely do bet another 195 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 2: thing on this particular. Oh yeah, of course you get 196 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: great bone structure too. On this acquaintance card that are 197 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: a wonderful research associate. Wren Fair Ren Fest Jones supplied 198 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: us with it's got the let's get acquainted for fun 199 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 2: and results and then makes the you know weird flex 200 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: of I am a millionaire's only son, check, not married, 201 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: still looking for someone to love. And then there's a 202 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: big old open space that is wrapped around this kind 203 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 2: of ribbon that spans the length of the card or 204 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: the width of the card. And on each side, on 205 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: the left side there's a gentleman with a cane and 206 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 2: a top hat and his fine you know, coach sharp 207 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: and shoes, sharply dressed, sitting And on the other side 208 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: is a lady with her parasol and you know, petty 209 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: coats and a roughly hat. 210 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: That probably has a huge pin in it, just no doubt. 211 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: Oh, check out our episode on hat pin Warriors. You 212 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: know what was it? The wolf whistlers or the cap callers? 213 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: That was it? They had to defend themselves against these 214 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: rascal mash I love the the mashers. I love the 215 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 2: separation that this line that's available for writing a particular 216 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: message is giving between these two. There is this like 217 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,479 Speaker 2: will they won't they? Kind of sexual tension just communicated 218 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 2: on the card alone. 219 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, to be clear, the female character on the 220 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: right looks to be interested in perhaps admiring the male figure. 221 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: The male figure, however, is a bit more salacious because 222 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: he's turned across his left shoulder and he is clearly 223 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: scari at her posterior her ruffle. 224 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, her bustle, or ruffle her bustle indeed. And then 225 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: at the bottom we've got the final little kicker line 226 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: licensed to knock and butt in office hours seven pm 227 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 2: to one a m in some young lady these parlors. 228 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: This is absolutely it does feel like a joke. Is 229 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: it a joker, isn't it? Though? You know what I mean? 230 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: Maybe it's hiding behind the coyness. 231 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: Of a little joke. But you know what this fella 232 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: is up to. We know what this fellow I'm joking 233 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: if you're joking, right, and that kind of thing. But 234 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: also maybe this is a card you hand to someone 235 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: that you are already acquainted with, you know what I mean. 236 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: That's right, there's some cheekiness to all of these. We 237 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: have another great example, uh that says, I am see, 238 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: I can't read it. It's in like a real cursive, 239 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: the handwritten kind of uh script, who the and then 240 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: a sexy pop belly little devil? 241 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: Are you? 242 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: It's a picture? 243 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: So you write your name in here. So this is 244 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: very stylized. Fot it says, I am, And then you 245 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: write in your name. See why young? 246 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: He says young? Okay, good eyes? 247 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: Who the devil? Or you? It looks like, yeah, young, 248 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: or you mean well, I have to write no. 249 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: I think nail though. 250 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: Who you are? 251 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: I think you nailed it with young men? But who 252 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: the devil? Indeed are you? Some researchers think that the 253 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: escort cards may have actually been also used by queer 254 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: people as a way of subtly communicating with one another 255 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: in a time where this kind of thing would have 256 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: been completely verboten, you know, would have been perhaps even 257 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: subjects to prosecution in some cases. So this is a 258 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 2: very forward thinking way of folks to communicate with each 259 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 2: other and find love outside of the prying eye of 260 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: the very puritanical public and powers that be. 261 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: Oh and there's a conspiratorial aspect to this. This is 262 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: all a bit conspiratorial, honestly, but the escort cards in 263 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: the queer community at the time may have carried purposeful 264 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: typos and shout out to our research associate RED for 265 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: finding this, because these typos may have done one of 266 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: two things. First, they may have made it appear as 267 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: though someone was hitting on, you know, someone of the 268 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: same uh sexual orientation or uh se I should say 269 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: sexual identification. But then other times it may have been 270 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: like a case where you purposely went to that printer 271 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: because they've made those cards for that community, and it's 272 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: in a way that allows you plausible deniability, so you 273 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: can say, you know that you know that that foppish dandy, 274 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: that that macaroni young earl in Twistle has has said 275 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: some some saucy and unacceptable things about you, milord, and 276 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: then you would say, well, that's ever so dreadful. They 277 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: must have misunderstood. 278 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what this really reminds me I've been 279 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: in more modern times is the LGBTQ plus community. These 280 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: handkerchief codes that were originated in the nineteen seventies in 281 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: New York City as well as I think even there's 282 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 2: origins of it to date back to the San Francisco 283 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 2: gold Rush era. But it was a way of subtly 284 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: communicating sexual preference. And I mean you know within the 285 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 2: queer culture of types of activities, types with a high 286 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: degree of specificity, very high degree of specificity, and it 287 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: has a lot in common with the fan codes, because 288 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: it would be like a pink hanky worn on the 289 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: left or worn on the right meant something very different 290 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: depending on the color. And if you can actually go 291 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: to a website called the Closet Professor where you can 292 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: see a pretty incredible and in depth spreadsheet of this 293 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: kind of stuff. So you know, this Victorian flirting code 294 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 2: language really kind of continued to have an impact further 295 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: into history. 296 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can still see these kind of systems 297 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: of coded community in countries throughout the world and cultures 298 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: throughout the world in the modern day. It can seem 299 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: honestly quite unfamiliar to many of US Americans, or many 300 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: of us from the United States, but when you travel abroad, 301 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: you will run into things like this, and sometimes you 302 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: will accidentally find yourself in situations. 303 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 2: Well, Ben, aren't there still countries in the world where 304 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: being gay or being queer is illegal? 305 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is absolutely true. And then there are also 306 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: places where it's technically not a crime, but it's still 307 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: very culturally verbotan. One thing I will always remember, and 308 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: I can tell the story because enough time has passed. 309 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 2: I don't keep it very brief. 310 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: I went into the wrong store when I was living 311 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: in a small town in Guatemala and I was attempting 312 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: to attempting to buy a thing for a girl I 313 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: was courting, and it was a bridal store that also 314 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: sold flowers. And I don't know if there's a thing 315 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: for the whole country or if it's just the thing 316 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: that happened at the store, but flower code stuff. I 317 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: think I asked for the wrong type of flowers. Spanish 318 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: at the time was not super great, and so the 319 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: person who was running the place took me to a 320 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: kid you not a secret back room where they sold 321 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: things that I was not ready to buy. 322 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 2: Oh wow? That can you be more specific? 323 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: All air not on a family, but it's very do 324 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: you know me, man, I'm chill, I'm diplomatic. I'm not 325 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: trying to step on toes and to read the room. 326 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Oh no, I didn't want to read that room though. No, no, no, 327 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: you were forced to, at least to some small degree. Ben. 328 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: We talked a little bit in part one of this 329 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 2: series about how a lot of these codes. We were 330 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: relegated to the upper class because a silk fan was 331 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: an expensive accessory. You know, having these types of cards 332 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: printed was not cheap either. All of the different flowers 333 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: required to communicate through that kind of code also not cheap. 334 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 2: This was, however, some of the early days of personal 335 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: ads in newspapers, which were a little more affordable to 336 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: folks who could not participate in some of these more 337 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 2: high falutin methods of low key flirtation. 338 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, classified advertisements, you know that is something that several 339 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: of us in the audience today may remember. I wonder 340 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: whether anybody listening, any of our fellow ridiculous historians, have 341 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: ever had the hypothetical pleasure of publishing a classified advertisement, 342 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: Because when we came along, I think personals in print 343 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: were still a thing, but a lot more people were 344 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: already online, like Craigslist or something. 345 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: Craigslist Missed Connections, remember. 346 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: I loved reading missed connections. 347 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: Can tell at home that they're young. 348 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: Let's double dragging it, Max. You might be a little 349 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: young for miss connections too, so miss connections in a 350 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: lot of local papers. But then especially on Craigslist, was 351 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: you were shot in the dark. Your needle in the haystack, 352 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: attempt to say that you found someone interesting. You saw them, 353 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: you may not have even spoken with them, and you 354 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: were so entrance that you wanted to know more about them, 355 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: so you tried to describe them. And typically the way 356 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: people would describe them was all ensconced within that. 357 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: Moment that amazed them, right, but absolutely in a flirtatious fashion. 358 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 2: All right, yes, yeah, yeah. 359 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: It would never be like I'm angry at you because 360 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: you cut line of Blockbuster. It was always like the 361 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: woman who cut a line at Blockbuster with the chestnut 362 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: brown hair and those entrancing green eyes. When I asked 363 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: if you also liked sugar babies or whatever, what's a 364 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: candy Blockbuster? There are some milk duds, milk duds. When 365 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: I asked if you liked milk duds, I think you 366 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: understood what I was really asking. 367 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 2: Can I just say I found an article from Vox 368 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: from twenty sixteen. I analyzed ten thousand Craigslist misconnections. Here's 369 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: what I learned by Ilia Blenderman. Just to give you 370 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 2: a few examples. Analyst girl in blue slash, white floral 371 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 2: dress on en train headed uptown at nine pm Monday, 372 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: m for W. What is M for W? 373 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: Men for women or men's Thank you? 374 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 2: I'm such a child cute brunette girl reading who shared 375 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 2: my table at the bean on Monday M for W 376 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: misconnections so they can really be quite pithy, like an 377 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 2: early example of tweets. 378 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: Oh and real quick. I can't believe we found this, Noel, 379 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: thank you for bringing this, bringing up this lost internet artifact, 380 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: this blast from the past. My favorite is uh, you 381 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: farted near the produce. You were the hot brunette with 382 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: curves that farted near the produce this weekend. I was 383 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: this tall guy next to you that looked over and asked, 384 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: was that you? You quickly replied no, wasn't me. You 385 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: almost seem insulted. I was, I would ask. As this 386 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: step grew, you continued to deny your flatulence, but it 387 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: was evident I tried to get rid of the stench 388 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: by waving a couple of loafs of bread from Lapagnier. 389 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: You proceeded to storm off in an angry manner. You 390 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: are beautiful and even though you are a liar and 391 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: fart like at Clyesdale, I would love to meet up 392 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: for a drink sometime. 393 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: Ben what was it. 394 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 3: Who was the Ulysses writer that was really into flies? 395 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: James Joyce. 396 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: That is so James Joyce. He's looking for a artie 397 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: princess and. 398 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: Max popped onto the onto the chat for a second. 399 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: Oh my, I just had to read that. Thank you, Noel. 400 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: I forgot about miss connections. I was obsessed with those. 401 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, they're very obsession worthy and you can definitely 402 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: check out some examples of that if there's a quick 403 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: cursory Google. And that Vox article I referenced is incredibly 404 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: detailed and in depth and sort of like a quintessential 405 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: analysis of this cultural moment. But let's talk about the 406 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 2: Victorian predecessor to missed Connections and the personals ads. I 407 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 2: always wonder but never bothered to. Look why they're called 408 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 2: classified ads. It's pretty obvious in my mind. Classified means secrets, 409 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: you know, government secret stuff, but it just means they're 410 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: classified in different categories like things for sale, personals want ads, jobs, 411 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 2: and things like that. But yeah, what was the deal 412 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: with Victorian flirtatious ads? Yeah? 413 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you had as a man, you had better luck 414 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: with this option because it was essentially what we would 415 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: call a dead drop in some other industries, you know 416 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: how like in spy movies you have a dead drop 417 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: to convey information. You put the message, you know, in 418 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: the trunk of a tree, a certain tree apart. 419 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 2: A trash band or something like that as well. Yeah, 420 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: and so these personal. 421 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: Ads I love the double enthalmesra they're classified or the 422 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: double meaning. These personal ads were dead drops because the 423 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: person replying to you, right, you wouldn't know who was 424 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: reading it was anybody who was literate and could get 425 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: a newspaper. And when they reply to you, it's a 426 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: one way street for them unless they provide a return address. 427 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: So there's a level of security there that doesn't really 428 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: exist when you have the intercession of the chaperone or 429 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: the intercession of the household staff. It was always kind 430 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: of improper in the Victorian era for a woman you 431 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: directly say what she was looking for in a partner, right, 432 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: So the misconnections thing didn't really exist at the same 433 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: level of a hilarity, maybe arguably as you would find 434 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: on Craigslist. But you could place an ad to paper 435 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: as a last ditch effort to avoid dying alone. Thanks 436 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: to her pale red for that turn of phrase, and 437 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: Noel when we're looking into some of the sources, we 438 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: found some pretty illuminating examples. 439 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an article that Wren linked us to date, 440 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: like a Victorian Courtship and Romance in the Victorian Era 441 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 2: by Ada Loewen Clark on a website called Friends of 442 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 2: Dalnovert dot Ca, which I believe is a museum, and 443 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: she actually very cleverly kind of put this in the 444 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 2: tender format, and it's got a very you know, old 445 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: Victorian image of a young lady apparently named Polly twenty 446 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: three seeking a sensible, good natured husband who is fond 447 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: of laughing and fun. Mmm mm hmm. 448 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: And it makes sense too. I believe in a lot 449 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: of these advertisements it would be somewhat uncommon to have 450 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: a photograph published as well, because I would give away 451 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: your identity. 452 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 2: Right. 453 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: So, now, if you are, if you are young Polly, 454 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: and maybe your household staff and your parents and your 455 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: relatives are just cracking down and they're mean to you 456 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: because you know you're getting the wrong kind of escort 457 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: or acquaintance cards or the wrong kind of flowers, then 458 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 1: you could perhaps sneak away on your own and get 459 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: this message out to the world and then maybe the 460 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: people replying to you would be smart enough to send 461 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: a letter that did not look overly flirtatious. 462 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: That's right, and this would have been less common for women. 463 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: And there was another phenomenon known as the redundant see 464 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: where women outnumbered men in Great Britain by over half 465 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 2: a million, and this was seen as a genuine crisis 466 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: and forced the Victorians to kind of re evaluate their 467 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 2: understanding of gender roles and led to something of a 468 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: feminist movement that would lead to more focus on women's 469 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: rights in the workplace as well as middle class women. 470 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, go team, And this is where we also see 471 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: the beginning or I guess the turn of the conversational 472 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: corner toward a future episode perhaps on a queer identity 473 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: in the Victorian era, which was very much a thing 474 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: and very much repressed, right, And you can see clear 475 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: evidence of this throughout the historical record. Ren said enclosing, 476 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to leave you with this picture of quote 477 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: two very platonic girlfriends who some how learned to make 478 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: do without husbands. 479 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: That was another last ditch effort to keep from dying alone, 480 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: was just to move in with a girlfriend. And this 481 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: picture that you're describing ben. One of them is very clearly, 482 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: almost satirically. It would seem dressed in a men's clothing, 483 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: like wearing a suit and a corsage, and then the 484 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: other women seated on kind of a fainting couch, is 485 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: you know, wearing more period appropriate women's clothes, and they 486 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 2: are kind of in an embrace. I mean this very 487 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 2: much is a you know, even by today's standards, a 488 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: very queer forward image. 489 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,239 Speaker 1: They were regarding each other. We could say they were 490 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: fondly right right, And this this reminds me of you 491 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: know that old Trope build situation where they say, oh, yeah, 492 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, Aunt Becky never got married, but she lived 493 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: with her roommate for many, many many. 494 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: Dude, even in the nineties. You know, I grew up 495 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: and my best friend growing up from elementary school, he 496 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 2: had a queer parents, two women who lived together and 497 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 2: raised him, you know, as as his parents, of course, 498 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 2: and it was not something that they were hiding per 499 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: se or ashamed of. I slept over there many many times, 500 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: but it just wasn't exactly something that would be considered 501 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: socially acceptable at the time publicly. I actually distinctly remember 502 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: calling in to a local kind of conservative talk radio 503 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: show as a kid and talking about this because I 504 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: heard them kind of being not negative about this kind 505 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,959 Speaker 2: of thing, and I just felt the need to call 506 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: in and say that my friend had, you know, two moms, 507 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: and they were absolutely loving, wonderful parents. Nice man. 508 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: Good on you as young nol. And let's say, with 509 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: just a few little notes of context to set us 510 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: off here. One we teased in part one about chicken 511 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: right right, we mentioned that the idea of white and 512 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: dark meat does not come from your local chicken joy. 513 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: It comes from the Victorian era because they were afraid 514 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: of saying breast and legs at the dinner table. This 515 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: is how sexually repressed society had to pretend to. 516 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: Be lest a fella be tempted with titillating thoughts of 517 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: a lady impious, profane. But isn't that the funny thing 518 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: about all of this, Ben, is that these societal structures 519 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: did nothing but drive this kind of behavior underground. 520 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: Yes, that always tends to be the case with this 521 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: exact breast stuff, And I would argue it just made 522 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: some things weirder and made people hornier. It made people 523 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: hornier because now everything is naughty. So it's another example 524 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: of how prohibition very rarely works out the way it's 525 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: imposers in ten like even this even affected Victorian furniture. 526 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: If you look at Victorian furniture, if you like us 527 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: or fans of things like antique road show, then you'll 528 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: see a lot of high detail on this furniture. Ornate legs, 529 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: the Claude feet, you know, like everything at Claude feet. 530 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: For some reason, they were very into feet and claws. However, 531 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people would drape fabric over these amazing 532 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: works of material art because they thought they were so 533 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: repressed that they thought it might be sexually provocative, like 534 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: someone would what be driven to drink because they saw 535 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: a claw foot bathtub and they just couldn't control themselves. 536 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: So funny, And speaking of saucy little devils, ben the 537 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 2: Victorians and food, the Victorians were also the first to 538 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: use imageries of Lucifer himself, the Christian devil, to denote 539 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: things like spiciness in condiments, for example. 540 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we also know that, by the way, 541 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: repression doesn't mean that these people were any more or 542 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: less than the kind of people you run in today. 543 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: And it might be surprising to realize there were some 544 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: things that our current societies would consider honestly pretty gross, 545 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: that victorious society was totally fine with, like marrying your cousin. 546 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And we mentioned I believe in part 547 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: one Prince Albert and his secret piercing, And that's a 548 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: great example of something that is just hidden beneath the surface, 549 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: you know, because that piercing today in many circles, would 550 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: be considered the height of kink. 551 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: It just seems impractical. I mean, if you have one, 552 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,719 Speaker 1: do as thou wilt, you know, as long as everything's consensual. 553 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: I believe it has proven to be a myth. 554 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 4: Well, no, they don't know. 555 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: They don't know. 556 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 4: They it was named after him, they don't know if 557 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 4: he had one. 558 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to say that right now. 559 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 4: It's also like, you know, medical science and stuff like 560 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 4: that really lagged behind a lot of other things. So 561 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 4: it's just like in this time period, having that piercing 562 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 4: just would seem really like dangerous. Yeah, it's really infected 563 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 4: and you died. 564 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: It's an escort card for infection at that point. But 565 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: what I love that callback And I'm even speaking more 566 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: to the point that Queen Victoria married her first cousin 567 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: and was deeply in love with him. That's the Prince 568 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: alb what we're talking about, nine children. 569 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: Quite a few kids. Yeah, so they very much were 570 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: going at it. For Albert's twenty fourth birthday. In fact, 571 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: the young Victoria's sent him quite the seductive portrait of herself, 572 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 2: sort of what you might consider a boudoir photo, or 573 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 2: is that right, like some of those kind of yeah, yeah, yeah, 574 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 2: a type style thing, you know, sexy but class indeed 575 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: neglige for self, in which she wears her hair, oh goodness, gracious, 576 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: partially down around her exposed shoulders against a sexy red 577 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: velvet cushion. 578 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: And everything about this portrait is purposeful. It is, as 579 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: you said, boudoirs. The red velvet cushion is supposed to 580 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: be part of the whole, you know, the whole gestalt effect. 581 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: Exposed shoulders the devil. You say, why she's the. 582 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: Queen turning that velvet cushion in and of itself. I 583 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 2: think you were getting at Ben. There's a certain implication, 584 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: a testure that is in line with a certain female 585 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: body part. 586 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: Let's just say, let's just say, I love how we 587 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: are three grown men. We're super mature and we're so 588 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: happy that you have tuned in and joined us for 589 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: Part two of the Ridiculous History of Victorian Flirting. There's 590 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: more about flirtation on the way. We'd love to hear 591 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: your ideas. Folks. Drop by our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians. 592 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: In the meantime, big big thanks to our super producer, 593 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: the literal man of the hour, mister Max Williams, also 594 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: his biological brother Alex Tijuana Williams, who composed this lap 595 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: and bop. 596 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 2: Indeed, Christopher Hasiotis and Eve's Jeffcoats here in Spirit, Jonathan Strickland, 597 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: the Quist, aj Bahamas, Jacob's The. 598 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: Puzzler, and of course big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach, Lance, 599 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: Big Spinach, Thanks to you, doctor Lance, Big thanks to 600 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: Rude Dudes over at Ridiculous Crime, and big thanks to 601 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: honestly big thanks to Max for editing this. I know 602 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: I had a lot of lot, went to a lot 603 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: of weird places man. 604 00:36:54,560 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts 605 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 606 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.