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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Ted Bundy was a monster, murdered dozens of women and girls.

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Speaker 2: Born in Vermont, finally captured in Florida. What do we

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Speaker 2: know about him?

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Speaker 3: Well, Ted Bundy is one of the most famously charismatic

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Speaker 3: serial killers. He got away with it for so long,

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Speaker 3: largely because he was handsome, very normal guy law student.

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Speaker 3: He would just walk up to women in a broad

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Speaker 3: daylight and ask them for help getting into his car,

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Speaker 3: where he would wear a fake cast or something, and

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Speaker 3: then he would have ducked them and no one would

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Speaker 3: know anything about it. Very brazen, very narcissistic, pretty psychopathic,

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Speaker 3: you know, and he killed dozens and dozens of people.

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Speaker 3: He's someone who really did shape the future of criminal

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Speaker 3: profiling because as he was rampaging the country from the west,

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Speaker 3: from Seattle to the down to Florida, police weren't able

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Speaker 3: to link the crime. So he would kill someone in

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Speaker 3: one state and then he'd move on and kill someone

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Speaker 3: in the next state, and the police in those two

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Speaker 3: states never spoke to each other about it, so it

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Speaker 3: it just went on for years without any leads, and

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Speaker 3: so when the FBI behavioral Science unit got involved. They decided,

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Speaker 3: you know, let's link, let's start to create more information

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Speaker 3: sharing across states so that the jurisdiction is clear and

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Speaker 3: we can all share information and try to catch this guy.

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Speaker 3: And he really put that unit on the map.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about Dorothy Lewis.

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Speaker 4: Dorothy Lewis is a child psychiatrist who's at Yale.

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Speaker 3: She's now in her eighties, but she was really a

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Speaker 3: pioneer of the study of violence when she in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixties, she studied juvenile offenders and tried to identify

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Speaker 3: whether there were biological or neurological processes involved in criminals

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Speaker 3: and violence. And she went on to evaluate some of

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Speaker 3: the most famous serial killers in history, including Bundy and

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Speaker 3: many others that you would know.

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Speaker 4: And she was really trying to.

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Speaker 3: Create a case that showed that there are many factors

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Speaker 3: that make someone extremely violent, like Ted Bundy. It was

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Speaker 3: for her it was a mix of biological processes like

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Speaker 3: a brain injury. For example, maybe you got into a

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Speaker 3: car accident or hit during if you were a child

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Speaker 3: during abuse and you injured your amygdala, and that could

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Speaker 3: cause you to lose impulse control. Plus that alongside usually

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Speaker 3: a childhood trauma such as you know, abuse, and then finally,

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Speaker 3: there's often.

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Speaker 4: A psychiatric disorder involved as well.

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Speaker 3: There could be schizophrenia, it could be paranoia, it could

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Speaker 3: be a number of things, and when you put all

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Speaker 3: these these factors together you could get a very toxic trifecta.

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Speaker 3: This could really this is the kind of situation where

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Speaker 3: you are at risk of potentially becoming a criminal. Of course,

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Speaker 3: you could also have all those things and not be

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Speaker 3: a criminal, but this was what she set out to prove.

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Speaker 3: And this was at a time when society was really

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Speaker 3: more interested in just calling these people evil and not

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Speaker 3: really trying to understand them, but saying, let's just let's

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Speaker 3: just get rid of them, let's put them to death,

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Speaker 3: and let's get them out of society, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: in some ways very understandable. But Dorothy Lewis really wanted

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Speaker 3: to understand what made them tick, and so Ted Bundy

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Speaker 3: was her kind of her lifelong case.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm convinced something has happened to these people when

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Speaker 2: they're kids, aren't you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's I mean, that's pretty much universally seen.

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Speaker 3: Bundy's interesting because he claimed there was never any abuse

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Speaker 3: in the home. It was a perfect model family, Christian

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Speaker 3: loving but that turned out not to be true. There

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Speaker 3: started to be cracks in that story, you know, with

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Speaker 3: Dorothy Lewis and Bundy. She she came to believe that

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Speaker 3: perhaps he even had multiple personalities. He was bipolar, she diagnosed,

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Speaker 3: because in the courtroom he would act really manic sometimes,

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Speaker 3: you know, he was. He would put himself on the

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Speaker 3: stand and he represented himself.

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Speaker 4: So he would he would cross you know, who would

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Speaker 4: call himself as a witness, and it was very bizarre.

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Speaker 3: And he would even ask his girlfriend to the courtroom

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Speaker 3: and ask her to marry him. She said yes, But

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Speaker 3: all of this behavior, so she came to believe that,

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Speaker 3: you know, there was really a.

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Speaker 4: Lot going on with Bundy that was more than me eye.

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Speaker 3: And even long after he died, she continues to study

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Speaker 3: him and she thinks that, you know, the way he

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Speaker 3: talked about himself and the third person sometimes he described

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Speaker 3: himself as having an entity and that the entity would

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Speaker 3: do things that were evil. So all of this Ted

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Speaker 3: Bundy is really a fascinating kind of ongoing mystery, and

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Speaker 3: Dorothy Lewis is someone who's still trying to figure it out.

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Speaker 2: Did he have guy friends.

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Speaker 4: That's a great.

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Speaker 3: Question, you know, as much as I you know, I

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Speaker 3: really they haven't come up in my research. He you know,

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Speaker 3: he had girlfriends, he was able to sustain a long

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Speaker 3: relationship with a woman. I don't recall hearing about him

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Speaker 3: really sustaining any male friendships.

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Speaker 2: Actually, everything I've seen or read about him, he was

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Speaker 2: never around other guys. Was always women.

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Speaker 4: You're right, you're right.

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Speaker 3: And even his friend, you know, and rule the crime

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Speaker 3: author was a woman. One of his few friends that

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Speaker 3: he's he had.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Now what do we know about the FBI's Behavioral

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Speaker 2: Science unit and what does that have to do with Bundy.

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Speaker 3: So in the nineteen sixties, Howard Teaton was was he

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Speaker 3: was a forensic scientist, forensic expert. He worked on crime scenes,

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Speaker 3: and he started to think that maybe there was more

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Speaker 3: to murder than we typically thought. He thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: not just a practical thing that you know, something that

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Speaker 3: people do when they are robbing someone trying to get money,

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Speaker 3: or they're jealous and they kill somebody, some man or something.

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Speaker 3: And he said, there must there are other psychological factors

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Speaker 3: going on, and perhaps these these cases are really beyond

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Speaker 3: what we imagine.

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Speaker 4: Perhaps murderers are really sadistic, they really have no empathy.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps there's these other attributes that you could identify by

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Speaker 3: looking at the crime scenes.

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Speaker 4: And he started.

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Speaker 3: Then he joined up with Patrick mulaney and they began

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Speaker 3: teaching courses at Quantico in psychology and criminal psychology.

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Speaker 4: And this just just took off.

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Speaker 3: It for years, it didn't take off, but it was

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Speaker 3: popular among the agents in the FBI who would who

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Speaker 3: wanted to take these classes, And it wasn't until the

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Speaker 3: until Bundy's cross country killing.

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Speaker 4: Spree that they started to really get a tension.

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Speaker 3: The FBI was in this period kind of doing damage

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Speaker 3: control for all of the wreckage that Jaggar Hoover had

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Speaker 3: left behind.

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Speaker 4: You know, it was it had it was.

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Speaker 3: Its reputation was in shambles, Its funding was slashed, so

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Speaker 3: they decided to kind of drum up this idea of

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Speaker 3: the serial killer epidemic. There was Ted Bundy, and soon

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Speaker 3: after that there was John Wayne Gacy and then there

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Speaker 3: was the Atlanta child murders, all kind of happening around

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Speaker 3: the same time.

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Speaker 4: So they went to.

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Speaker 3: The media and they they really exaggerated how bad this

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Speaker 3: crisis was. They said they were four thousand to five

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Speaker 3: thousand people killed by serial killers every year, when in

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Speaker 3: reality the number was more like four hundred to five hundred.

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Speaker 3: But no one corrected this, and so they went on

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Speaker 3: they had to kind of create this problem, and then

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Speaker 3: they presented themselves as the solution. They said, we have

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Speaker 3: this elite team of guys working in the basement and

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Speaker 3: they have the ability to get into the minds of

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Speaker 3: murderers like no one else can.

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Speaker 4: And the public was so terrified.

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Speaker 3: They were very happy to hear this, and they thought,

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Speaker 3: let's let's fund these guys, Let's get them whatever they

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Speaker 3: need to stop this terror gripping the nation.

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Speaker 4: And so they presented them in the press the mind.

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Speaker 3: Hunters or you know, these were the FBI profilers, and

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Speaker 3: they were then able to get more congressional funding, they

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Speaker 3: were expanded their jurisdiction. So it really wasn't an incredible

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Speaker 3: pr case for the FBI that the that the profilers used.

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Speaker 3: And Ted Bundy was the poster boy of this. You know,

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Speaker 3: if we had these profilers, we could have caught Bundy.

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Speaker 2: Richard. What about the farmer ed Gean? He was whacked out,

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Speaker 2: wasn't he.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's one way of putting it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, ed Gan is you know, really in the in

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Speaker 3: the news again because of the Netflix show Monsters, right,

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Speaker 3: And he's interesting because he was really the first kind

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Speaker 3: of celebrity serial killer, the first serial killer in America,

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Speaker 3: I should say, who was who was really well known

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Speaker 3: and he was from Plainsfield, Wisconsin. He was lived on

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Speaker 3: a farm. His father was very abusive, and his mother

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Speaker 3: was a real religious fanatic who hated women and and

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Speaker 3: really thought all women were demonic. And she instilled this

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Speaker 3: in ed Green from from his whole for his whole life.

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Speaker 3: They lived in this rundown farmhouse that was kind of

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Speaker 3: a horder situation, and as he grew up and became

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Speaker 3: interested in women, she would would ridicule him sexually. And

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Speaker 3: when she died it was this it Geen was was

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Speaker 3: was was stunned, and he was he couldn't function really

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Speaker 3: after that. He he needed his mother and he began

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Speaker 3: to do very weird things. He began to dig up

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Speaker 3: the graves of women and snatched their bodies and he

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Speaker 3: would go home and he would skin them.

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Speaker 4: He made furniture out of the skin.

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Speaker 3: He sometimes made suits out of their skin and wore them,

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Speaker 3: and he kept.

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Speaker 2: The bones and things like that.

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Speaker 3: Well, he made bowls out of the skulls. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it was just a whole house full of this horrific stuff.

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Speaker 3: And he also killed a couple of women directly. He

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Speaker 3: admitted to two, at least as far as we know, and.

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Speaker 4: You know, he was dying.

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Speaker 2: Don't you have to kill more than two to be

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Speaker 2: a serial killer?

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Speaker 3: I think maybe it's just more than one, but I

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Speaker 3: don't know. Good question, that's a good question.

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Speaker 4: He might there may have been more.

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Speaker 3: He admitted it too, but there were other cases in

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Speaker 3: the area that they believed might have been linked to

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Speaker 3: him as well. But he you know, so he was

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Speaker 3: he was caught and he was you know, diagnosed with schizophrenia,

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Speaker 3: and he was sent to a mental hospital where where

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Speaker 3: he lived at the rest of his life because he

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Speaker 3: was found guilty.

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Speaker 4: Not guilty bearers into insanity.

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Speaker 3: So you know, Ed Geen has now gone on to

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Speaker 3: influence so many films and some of the biggest characters

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Speaker 3: in pop culture. He was Norman Norman Bates in Psycho

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Speaker 3: Hitchcock Psycho and he was leather Faced and the Texas

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Speaker 3: Chainsaw Massacre, and he came back as you know, a

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Speaker 3: buffalo bill and silence of the Lambs and all these

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Speaker 3: different characters he's reinvented. So this was somebody who before

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Speaker 3: ed Geen, horror movies were really still about monsters like

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Speaker 3: ghouls and ghosts and that kind of monster.

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Speaker 4: This was Norman.

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Speaker 3: When Norman Bates was created in the in the model

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Speaker 3: of ed Geen, that was really when we started having

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Speaker 3: the serial killer as a monster, a human monster for

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Speaker 3: the first time, and that.

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Speaker 4: Has really stayed throughout history.

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Speaker 3: And this show in Netflix really looks into that his

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Speaker 3: role in pop culture and how he's been reinvented over

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Speaker 3: and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: Did he help the FBI find Ted Bundy?

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Speaker 4: So this is a piece of the show that they

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Speaker 4: they suggest they that it's not true.

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Speaker 3: The short answer is that it No, it's not true,

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Speaker 3: but you know it's it's it's Bundy did offer to

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Speaker 3: help the FBI in other crimes, and I think that's

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Speaker 3: where this rumor stems from. You know, he he but

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Speaker 3: Bundy offered to solve the Green River killer case, the

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Speaker 3: who was the serial killer Gary Widgeway. You know, he

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Speaker 3: told detectives that he could be going back to the

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Speaker 3: sites where he left the bodies and you know, taking

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Speaker 3: taking trophies or revisiting them, and that he alone could

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Speaker 3: understand the mind of a serial killer. So that is

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Speaker 3: true in a sense, but it's not true exactly with

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Speaker 3: Ed Gene.

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Speaker 2: Now, who was Henry Murray with the CIA.

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Speaker 3: So you know, we think of profiling as the FBI,

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Speaker 3: But in my book, I really look further back and

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Speaker 3: I look at how the CIA has used.

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Speaker 4: Profile in its own way.

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Speaker 3: So in the nineteen forties, when the CIA was still

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Speaker 3: the OSS, they hired Henry Murray, who was a Harvard psychologist,

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Speaker 3: and they asked him to.

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Speaker 4: Write a profile of Hitler.

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Speaker 3: This had not been done before, this idea of profiling

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Speaker 3: someone that you never met, trying to predict his future

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Speaker 3: moves based on what you could deduce about his personality.

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Speaker 4: So Henry Murray was eager to join. He actually wasn't

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Speaker 4: a psychologist.

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Speaker 3: He he was a physician who talked his way into

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Speaker 3: heading the Harvard psychology clinic.

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Speaker 4: He was a pretty weird guy himself.

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Speaker 3: And he wrote this profile of Hitler and he predicted

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Speaker 3: some detailed.

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Speaker 4: Aspects of his behavior.

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Speaker 3: He predicted that correctly, that he would commit suicide before

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Speaker 3: he would ever surrender, and he got a lot of

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Speaker 3: things wrong too, and he got very involved in svculating

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Speaker 3: about his sexuality and his parents and things that weren't

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Speaker 3: necessarily so useful to the OSS at the time.

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Speaker 4: But this is this is now something that's done commonly.

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Speaker 3: It's today it's called, you know, things like leadership profiles

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Speaker 3: or or when you basically when the CIA profiles a

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Speaker 3: foreign dictator, someone who they want to have to have

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Speaker 3: some knowledge of Vladimir Putin. We've done it with in

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Speaker 3: Saddam Hussein, but the Hitler profile was really the first.

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Speaker 2: Pretty dramatic, isn't it. Yeah, tell us about your website, Rachel.

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Speaker 3: It's Rachel Dashcorbett dot com and there's links to the

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Speaker 3: book there and much of my other writing as well.

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Speaker 2: You had mentioned that serial killers seem to be diminished

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Speaker 2: nowadays because of DNA. Are we catching them faster?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I think that's right. We're able to.

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Speaker 3: You know, the cell phone towers is another thing that's

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Speaker 3: really broken up in a lot of investigations I think about.

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Speaker 4: You know, here in New York where I am, we.

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Speaker 3: Have the Gilgo Beach murder or the Long Island serial

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Speaker 3: killer as he's known sometimes, who was killing since the

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Speaker 3: nineties but was only now a suspect was arrested based

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Speaker 3: on new technology, and you know, I think this.

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Speaker 4: Is happening everywhere.

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Speaker 3: There's more you know, as they say, one and done

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Speaker 3: killers today than there ever were because.

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Speaker 4: It's just it's just hard to get away with it.

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Speaker 3: There's also cameras everywhere, facial recognition, surveillance, you know, all

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Speaker 3: over the place.

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Speaker 4: So it's it's it's very hard I think today.

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Speaker 2: And I think they caught the uh, the Louver jewelry

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Speaker 2: thing just with DNA, didn't they.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's right, there was just there's just news

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Speaker 4: of that. Yeah, I think you're right.

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