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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 1: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 1: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints. Ryan is on spring break,

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Speaker 3: so we are very lucky to have Crystal joining us,

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Speaker 3: and Crystal actually also has a little bit of an

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Speaker 3: announcement about something that's going to be on the channel tonight. Crystal,

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Speaker 3: how you doing and what have you got for us?

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Speaker 1: Doing good? Always a pleasure to be joining you on

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Speaker 1: a Wednesday, Emily, although it does deeply confuse me in

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Speaker 1: terms of what day of the week it actually rhythm

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Speaker 1: all thanks, so yeah, really throw me off, but I'm

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Speaker 1: very happy to be here. Yeah, so thank you for

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Speaker 1: reminding me. Sager is actually moderating a debate tonight. It's

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Speaker 1: via zero Hedge, but it's going to be live streamed

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Speaker 1: on our channel as well. The topic is Israel always

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Speaker 1: you know, a light, easy breezy, no major disagreements there.

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Speaker 1: And on one side you're going to have Jane Huger

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Speaker 1: and Dave Smith. On the other side you're going to

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Speaker 1: have Batya Angar Saga and Dennis Praeger. So I'm personally

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Speaker 1: looking forward to tuning into that and seeing how it goes.

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Speaker 1: But that'll be on our channel tonight at seven pm,

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Speaker 1: so make sure you don't miss that. We got a

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Speaker 1: lot though in the show to get to this morning.

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Speaker 1: We've got major speaker drama, We've got new sanctions being

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Speaker 1: announced against a Ron, We've got a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: free speech issues. We want to get to some very

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Speaker 1: consequential SCOTUS oral arguments that happened yesterday that could be

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Speaker 1: very significant for a lot of J six defendants and

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Speaker 1: also for Donald Trump himself. Looks like the DOJ is

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Speaker 1: going to sue Live Nation and Bill Maher making some

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Speaker 1: interesting comments and also comes in the context of this

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Speaker 1: whole NPR liberal whatever's going on at NPR. You can

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Speaker 1: help me understand that as well, Emily, and.

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Speaker 4: Katie Kirk is back talking to Bill Maher. Just so

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Speaker 4: much going.

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Speaker 1: On, Yeah, Katie Kirk you know, I that'd be a

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Speaker 1: fun one for us to interview. We should try to

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Speaker 1: get her. We should try to get her on I

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Speaker 1: have some questions for her.

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Speaker 4: That's a great idea.

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Speaker 3: The only other thing I want to say before we

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Speaker 3: dive in is that the debate that Sager's modern tonight

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Speaker 3: sounds like a Stefan joke on Saturday Night Live. It'll

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Speaker 3: have every everything, Dennis Prager, Sager and Jetty conversations about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was saying to you, it's such a weird world.

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Speaker 1: We didn't habit, but this is what counts for, you know,

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Speaker 1: A good time in my book is tuning into this

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Speaker 1: and seeing how it goes. But I know Soger will

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Speaker 1: do a fantastic job playing the you know, even handed moderator. There.

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Speaker 1: So interesting to see the sparks fly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, make sure to tune in seven pm. Right here.

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Speaker 3: Let's start though, also just down the street with Congress

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Speaker 3: here in Washington, d C. Where you're a weekly dose

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Speaker 3: of Groundhog Day. Yes, Mike Johnson might be ousted now

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Speaker 3: Thomas Massey has joined Marjorie Taylor Green's motion to vacate.

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Speaker 3: They still need to do the parliamentary procedure privileging the

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Speaker 3: motion to vacate if you want to get really nerdy

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Speaker 3: to actually force a vote on the motion to vacate

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Speaker 3: the Speaker of the House Mike Johnson over his foreign

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Speaker 3: aid package. This time, Thomas Massey actually called on him

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Speaker 3: to resign. We're going to break all down all the details,

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Speaker 3: but let's start with a clip of Mike Johnson talking

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Speaker 3: to reporters yesterday in the Capitol. Here's what he had

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Speaker 3: to say about the possibility of him resigning. What is

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Speaker 3: your response to Republicans who say this move should cost

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Speaker 3: you your job and that if.

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Speaker 1: You don't resign they will try to oust you.

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Speaker 5: I am not resigning, and it is in my view

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Speaker 5: an absurd notion that someone would bring a vacate motion

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Speaker 5: when we are simply here trying to do our jobs.

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Speaker 5: It is not helpful to the cause, It is not

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Speaker 5: helpful to the country. It does not help the House

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Speaker 5: republic Pigan's advance or agenda, which is in the best

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Speaker 5: interest to the American people here a secure border of

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Speaker 5: sound governance, and it's not helpful to the unity that

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Speaker 5: we have in the body.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: So again, that was Speaker Mike Johnson, responding to push

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Speaker 3: for him to actually just resign, and this came really

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Speaker 3: from Thomas Massey. We can put Thomas Massey sweet up

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Speaker 3: on the screen. This is a two he said. I

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Speaker 3: just told Mike Johnson in conference that I'm co sponsoring

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Speaker 3: the motion of a Kate that was introduced by Marjorie

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Speaker 3: Taylor Green. He should pre announce his resignation as Bayner did,

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Speaker 3: so we can pick a new speaker without ever being

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Speaker 3: without a GOP speaker. Christy who might remember that reference

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Speaker 3: to what John Bayner did as the writing kind of

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Speaker 3: ended up on the wall with Mark Meadows and Jim

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Speaker 3: Jordan all the way back in like twenty fifteen. That's

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Speaker 3: what Thomas Massey is referencing there. And this all over

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Speaker 3: a bill, the text of which actually has not yet

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Speaker 3: been released, but Mike Johnson has signaled will include half

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Speaker 3: the aid to U Ukraine, to Israel, to Taiwan with

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Speaker 3: none of the border security measures that his fellow Republicans,

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Speaker 3: especially the sort of Freedom Caucus and Freedom Coccus adjacent

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Speaker 3: people like Thomas Massin, like Marjorie Taylor Green who was

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Speaker 3: ousted from the Freedom Caucus. But we don't need to

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Speaker 3: get into all of that have demanded it be paired

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Speaker 3: with border security or some other offsets, and they are

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Speaker 3: furious with Mike Johnson for essentially working with Democrats, who,

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Speaker 3: as Politico is reported, seem to be open to potentially

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Speaker 3: saving Mike Johnson from this motion to vacate in order

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Speaker 3: to get their aid to Ukraine, their aid to Israel.

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Speaker 3: This is a three A tweet from Jake Sherman over

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Speaker 3: at punch Bowl. He broke some of this down. He said,

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Speaker 3: House Republicans plan to try to pass four bills this

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Speaker 3: week to send aid to Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan. According

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Speaker 3: to four sources familiar with the plan, maybe he had.

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Speaker 4: Like one per bill.

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Speaker 3: The fourth bill will include a ban on TikTok, a

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Speaker 3: bill to sell, a bill to sell ob seized Russian assets,

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Speaker 3: a lend Lease Act for military aid, convertible loan for

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Speaker 3: humanitarian relief, and other provisions. The GOP leadership will try

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Speaker 3: to move this plan under one rule, the sources said.

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Speaker 3: So four bills under one rule, and those are some

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Speaker 3: of the details of what those bills might actually look like,

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Speaker 3: and Crystal'll toss it to you. But let's first take

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Speaker 3: this tweet from Matt Stoller, which is aimed actually at Democrats.

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Speaker 3: He said, this move is responding to Jake Sherman, will

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Speaker 3: require Democratic support and as a move to create a

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Speaker 3: de facto war party caucus that is beyond partisan reach.

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Speaker 4: I hope Dems vote no. Mike Johnson has a one

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Speaker 4: vote margin in.

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Speaker 3: The House of Representatives right now, so Stoller is absolutely

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Speaker 3: correct that it will completely, no question about it, involve

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Speaker 3: Democrats saving Mike Johnson to pass that bill.

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Speaker 4: Stoller seems to me to be dead on Crystal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I completely stand with Matt Stoller in his stands there.

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Speaker 1: I hate basically, I mean, I do hate all four

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Speaker 1: of these bills. I don't want any of them to pass.

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Speaker 1: I could rank them in terms of which ones I

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Speaker 1: hate them, but the unconditional support for Israel probably reaches

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Speaker 1: the top of the list, although you know, the banning

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Speaker 1: TikTok stuff I also am opposed to. But just to

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Speaker 1: explain the legislative machinations here and why someone like Thomas Massey,

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Speaker 1: who I have plenty of disagreements with but I consider

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Speaker 1: to be a genuinely principled and actually courageous actor in

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Speaker 1: the United States Congress, why I think he's correct to

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Speaker 1: be very upset about this maneuver. So they've long been

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Speaker 1: trying to push through more Ukraine AID, more Israel AID,

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Speaker 1: more Taiwan AID, and you know, there's will put the

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Speaker 1: border security piece from the Republicans to the side for

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Speaker 1: a moment. And it's been difficult because you've got Republicans

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Speaker 1: who some number of whom are opposed to Ukraine AID,

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Speaker 1: You've got Democrats, some number of whom are now opposed

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Speaker 1: to the Israel AID, and so you know, the thing

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Speaker 1: that passed through the Senate, which pushed all these things together,

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Speaker 1: was unlikely to pass through the House. What Mike Johnson

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Speaker 1: is doing is basically a sort of legislative trick where

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Speaker 1: he's saying, okay, well, let's break these pieces apart. We

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Speaker 1: have enough pro war bipartisan consensus on Ukraine to pass

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Speaker 1: just Ukraine through the House. We have enough pro war

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Speaker 1: bipartisan consensus on Israel to just pass Israel through the House.

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Speaker 1: So if we do those two things and these other

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Speaker 1: pieces separately, and then after the fact, combine them together

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Speaker 1: so that it resembles basically what got through the Senate,

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Speaker 1: then there you go. We get our uniparty bipartisan pro

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Speaker 1: war consensus funded all across the board. And so what

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Speaker 1: Thomas Massey is saying is, basically, this is the polar

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Speaker 1: opposite of what was promised to us when you were

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Speaker 1: you know, when you were elected Speaker of the House,

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Speaker 1: You're to be honest with you, Emily, some of the

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Speaker 1: previous speaker machinations back when it was Kevin McCarthy and

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Speaker 1: Matt Gates and whatever, didn't really make a lot of

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Speaker 1: sense to me, and seem to be more performative on

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Speaker 1: the part of Matt Gates here, my understanding at least,

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Speaker 1: was one of the key reasons that McCarthy was ousted

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Speaker 1: in favor of Mike Johnson was Mike Johnson's supposed opposition

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Speaker 1: to Ukraine aid. You also had the specter of him

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Speaker 1: completely folding and reversing with regard to Faiza and you know,

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Speaker 1: the deep state and surveilling Americans. So I actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: to me, Thomas Massey stand here makes sense. Is entirely principled,

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Speaker 1: and I am certainly cheering for the whole thing to fail.

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Speaker 1: I'm not all that helpful that it's going to fail.

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Speaker 1: But to Stoler's point, what he's referring to here is

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Speaker 1: for these bills to even get to the floor, they

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Speaker 1: have to pass this, you know, the rules through committee.

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Speaker 1: Typically Democrats don't vote for Republican rules through those committees.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of like the traditional way, but it would

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Speaker 1: require Democrats in order to accomplish that. So that's why

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Speaker 1: if Democrat that's decided they wanted to block this, they could.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to me entirely likely that that is

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Speaker 1: going to happen, though at this point it seems like

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Speaker 1: once again we're on track, very likely for the pro

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Speaker 1: war consensus to get their money, as they seem to

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Speaker 1: always be able to accomplish.

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Speaker 3: And to that point, Actually, the House Intelligence Committee put

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Speaker 3: out a statement yesterday, a joint statement from Chairman Mike Turner.

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Speaker 3: Obviously was a huge sort of it was just on

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Speaker 3: his victory lap over the FAISA win that the UNI

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Speaker 3: Party had last week.

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Speaker 4: But they put out a.

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Speaker 3: Joint statement Mike Turner and the ranking member Jim Hymes,

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Speaker 3: a Democrat, and said we must pass Ukraine aid now

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Speaker 3: today in a classified briefing.

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Speaker 4: Where have you heard that before?

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Speaker 3: Our committee was informed of the critical need to provide

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Speaker 3: Ukraine military aid this week. No specifics, of course, that's

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Speaker 3: just how they like to frame these things. The US

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Speaker 3: must stand against Putin's war of aggression now as Ukraine

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Speaker 3: situation on the ground is critical. So Mike Johnson actually

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Speaker 3: is allowing the uniparty to attach Ukraine AID to Israel AID,

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Speaker 3: knowing that a lot of Republicans who are opposed to

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Speaker 3: Ukraine AID at this.

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Speaker 4: Point support Israel AID.

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Speaker 3: That was a red line for many of these people

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Speaker 3: that said, this is the ultimate betrayal. You know, we

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Speaker 3: don't know exactly what we expected from you, Mike Johnson,

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Speaker 3: but we heard you say many, many times that you

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Speaker 3: opposed tying Ukraine AID to Israel AID, that you oppose

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Speaker 3: continuing to fund the war in Ukraine without funding American

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Speaker 3: border security. So it just feels like a big stab

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Speaker 3: in the back and to those members. And on top

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Speaker 3: of that, now there is this real, I think, principled

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Speaker 3: blacklash from people like Thomas Massey. I couldn't agree more

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Speaker 3: with you, Crystel that he is courageous and genuinely is

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Speaker 3: committed to the principles on this question to prevent from

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Speaker 3: happening exactly what Stolar is predicting. And I feel like Crystal,

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Speaker 3: that is a it's something that if I had to bet,

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Speaker 3: I would probably say won't happened because the politics of

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Speaker 3: it for Democrats are so difficult right now. But then again,

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Speaker 3: the margin here is so small that it wouldn't take

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Speaker 3: that many Democrats to break away. If you have Jim

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Speaker 3: Hymes already putting on a statement.

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Speaker 1: Like that, Yeah, no, I mean, it's unfortunately been my

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Speaker 1: view from the beginning that some way, somehow they were

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Speaker 1: going to push through their Ukraine money, they were going

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Speaker 1: to push through their Israel money, because they always do so,

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Speaker 1: whether it's through this particular legislative maneuver or the next one.

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Speaker 1: You know, it seems like somehow they always find some

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Speaker 1: way to get this type of money through. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's almost a cliche at this point, like there isn't

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Speaker 1: all this legislative maneuvering and pressure and repeated attempts to

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Speaker 1: get the minimum wage lifted, or to get healthcare to

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Speaker 1: more Americans, or to get you know, affordable childcare, or

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Speaker 1: any other number of things that would benefit us. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to making sure that their donors, many

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Speaker 1: of you know, plenty of whom come from the defence industry,

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Speaker 1: are going to get paid or their future jobs in

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Speaker 1: the defense industry are going to be locked up, or

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Speaker 1: you know that APAK is satisfied with, you know, with

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Speaker 1: their return on investment for their donations. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to those things, they figure out some way. And even

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Speaker 1: people who like Mike Johnson, who claim to be opposed

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Speaker 1: to some of these things, suddenly when the pressure's on,

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Speaker 1: he flips on a dime and he's right there standing alongside,

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Speaker 1: you know, Mitch mccondell and Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: and all of the worst warhawks in the entire country.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I'm so you actually think though, that

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Speaker 1: there's a chance that these things will fail because of

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Speaker 1: the consternation on the Republican and the Democratic side this time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder because we haven't totally seen the pressure

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Speaker 3: campaign ratchet up on Democrats yet. Does it look for Democrats,

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Speaker 3: especially in the House side where a lot of them

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Speaker 3: are up for re election, like they're saving a Republican speaker.

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Speaker 4: Do they worry about that? I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I think those dynamics are what people are thinking about

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Speaker 3: over at the d TRIP and the DNC today, and

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Speaker 3: we might see some we might get like spidy senses

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Speaker 3: as to where they're pushing people as this continues on,

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Speaker 3: But there is reporting that they've talked about being open

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Speaker 3: to doing it. That's even that was even you know,

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Speaker 3: rumored back when it was McCarthy on the chopping box.

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Speaker 3: So who knows how real it is if it's just

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Speaker 3: a tool to keep having these conversations. But to put

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Speaker 3: a fine point on what you just said, Crystal about

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Speaker 3: Mike Johnson, it's like he said, he went into the

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Speaker 3: skiff where you know, you get those confidential briefings and

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Speaker 3: of classified information, and on section seven of two Phizer

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Speaker 3: Reform last week said, you know, he wanted to prevent

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Speaker 3: another nine to eleven from what he heard in the skiff.

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Speaker 4: That's what he was really worried about. And it was

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Speaker 4: actually a joke.

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Speaker 3: In some sort of like freedom caucasy circles before that

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Speaker 3: that Mike Johnson would go to the skiff and completely

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Speaker 3: flip flop on Fiza, and that's exactly what happened. And

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Speaker 3: it's funny because that's the language that Mike Turner and

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Speaker 3: Jim Heimesi in that joint statement that we got a

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Speaker 3: classified briefing today about the urgency for passing Ukraine Aid

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Speaker 3: this week I mean, it is always the same thing,

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Speaker 3: and that FAISA reform is now looking to be an

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Speaker 3: even worse bill that within you know, just a couple

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Speaker 3: of days between when everyone saw it when it was

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Speaker 3: passed that it already looked.

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Speaker 4: Like so you're right. I mean, they always always, for

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Speaker 4: the most part, get what they want and the rest

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Speaker 4: of us just have to sit back and take it.

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Speaker 1: Well, and that tactic is so incredibly typical, like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: there's something really scary that we can't tell you about,

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Speaker 1: but I promise you it justifies completely trampling on your

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Speaker 1: constitutional rights. Yet again, just trust us? Why should we

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Speaker 1: trust you? And remember when we were originally beginning to

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Speaker 1: talk about this PISA reform, remember they leaked to the

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Speaker 1: press about these Russian news. Yeah, like that was the

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Speaker 1: you know, Oh, we've got to find the scariest thing

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Speaker 1: we can possibly sell to the American people about why

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Speaker 1: we are, you know, taking away their right to privacy

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Speaker 1: here and going to continue surveilling them with a without

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Speaker 1: a warrant. So yeah, it's a classic tactic to use fear. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: it works all too often. But at this point, you know,

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Speaker 1: there is at least some bipartisan skepticism of the you know,

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Speaker 1: surveillance state, and so there's a little bit more of

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Speaker 1: a roadblock to just you know, rolling everybody with their

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Speaker 1: Russian space nuke you're mongering or whatever else they're going

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Speaker 1: to roll out. But yes, it's a classic tactic and

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Speaker 1: it has worked plenty of times, and ultimately, you know,

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Speaker 1: they do all kinds of things that don't really have

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Speaker 1: the backing of the American people, they find a way,

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Speaker 1: and I think this latest gambit which weaponizes the fact

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Speaker 1: that there's so much support for you know, just constantly

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Speaker 1: unconditional support for Israel, uh, you know, sufficient amounts amongst

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Speaker 1: both the parties, and sufficient amounts to continue the Ukraine

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Speaker 1: war indefinitely in spite of the fact that there's no

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Speaker 1: real plan at this point. I genuinely don't know what

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Speaker 1: the plan is at this point to help secure victory

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Speaker 1: for the Ukrainians. It seems like we're just going to

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Speaker 1: kick the can down the road. Brian made a comment

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Speaker 1: that I thought was really important, which is we've covered

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Speaker 1: the fact that the Ukrainians are struggling to find people

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Speaker 1: to fight this war, are pulling men off the street,

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Speaker 1: including men who are disabled physically and mentally disabled to

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Speaker 1: send to the front lines, and we're using our tax

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Speaker 1: dollars to put guns in the hands of people who

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Speaker 1: have no desire to fight. I mean, it's it's frankly

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Speaker 1: unconsfortable and moral at this point, especially with no plan

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Speaker 1: of what's going to happen. So so in any case,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a disgusting consensus that exists in Washington,

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Speaker 1: and I figured at some point they would they would

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Speaker 1: come up with the legislative mechanism to get their way

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Speaker 1: and to you know, fulfill the fondest wishes of the

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Speaker 1: all the folks who live inside the Beltway who make

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Speaker 1: millions off of continuing these conflicts.

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Speaker 3: And just to end on a pessimistic note, actually, I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, the consensus is building against the uniparty, and

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Speaker 3: we saw that in Mike Johnson himself, someone who was

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Speaker 3: friendly with Republican leadership. You know, he wasn't in the

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Speaker 3: Freedom Caucus, he wasn't sort of on the fringes. He

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Speaker 3: was against the Pfiser reform at first, he was against tying,

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Speaker 3: he was against Ukraine without border spending and changed on that.

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Speaker 3: And that's where I think it is really like room

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Speaker 3: for there's plenty of room for pessimism because if even

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Speaker 3: somebody like him, who you know, was sort of against

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Speaker 3: all of these like obvious uniparty priorities, gets into office,

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Speaker 3: there's no question he's in a really difficult spot. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think, big picture, it's clear that Austin Kevin McCarthy,

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Speaker 3: while I have no tears for Kevin McCarthy, was tactically

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Speaker 3: in error. You know, we don't have to roll the clip,

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Speaker 3: but Kevin McCarthy basically said recently that he's not in

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Speaker 3: he's not speaker because of Matt Gates, and McCarthy was

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Speaker 3: way more sympathetic in style to that sort of wing

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Speaker 3: of his party that he needs to get these bills

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Speaker 3: across than Mike Johnson is. And Mike Johnson is friends

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Speaker 3: with those guys. So it just feels to them like

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Speaker 3: a slap in the face. And I think they're right

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Speaker 3: to have that feeling, because he's someone who understood them,

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Speaker 3: who spent time with them, who said the right things

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Speaker 3: to them. And again, he's in a difficult spot. He's

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Speaker 3: got a one vote margin, he doesn't have George Santos anymore.

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Speaker 4: That's a real tragedy for him.

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Speaker 3: But it's the math is tough, and their perspective on

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Speaker 3: that is, well, the math is tough, so don't cave

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Speaker 3: to the uniparty. You don't have to so, and I

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Speaker 3: think that argument is obviously correct.

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Speaker 4: But we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 3: We actually don't even have the text of this bill

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Speaker 3: yet again, so that'll drop at some point this week.

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Speaker 3: It could really happen at any time, but I don't

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Speaker 3: know that they'll even try to bring these bills to

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Speaker 3: the floor as they plan to now until later this week,

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Speaker 3: maybe in early next week. But we could be looking

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Speaker 3: at billions billions more to Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan. We

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Speaker 3: could also be looking at even if after they passed

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Speaker 3: that they could oust Mike Johnson. So could be some

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Speaker 3: really big changes to foreign policy and Congress in the

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Speaker 3: days ahead.

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Speaker 4: Crystal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the last two things I'll say about this

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Speaker 1: is I just want to note once again the way

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Speaker 1: that Trump has also completely flipped in the way he's

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Speaker 1: talking about Ukraine is you know, now, embrace this ido.

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Speaker 1: We're going to give them a loan. It's not really

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Speaker 1: just a blank check. It's actually alone. Of course, we

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Speaker 1: would never it's the same thing, right, We would never

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Speaker 1: see that money against a posterous notion, and he can't

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Speaker 1: be stupid enough to think otherwise. So there's that. The

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Speaker 1: other thing just with regard to the philosophy of Mike Johnson,

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Speaker 1: and this was why I was always skeptical of him

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Speaker 1: in this position, you know, apart from other major ideological

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Speaker 1: differences I have, but of course I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: those with any Republican. At this point, he is a

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Speaker 1: true believer when it comes to Zionism and comes to Israel,

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Speaker 1: and it comes from this religious, evangelical place. So I

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Speaker 1: can't even say it's like the money or the corruption,

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Speaker 1: like I think he is a fervent believer in we

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Speaker 1: got to support Israel no matter what they do, no

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Speaker 1: matter what the cost, no matter how many people are killed.

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Speaker 1: And so the minute you have that on someone, then

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Speaker 1: it's basically all right, well, if you want so badly

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Speaker 1: to ship that aid to Israel, what are you going

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Speaker 1: to be able to do for us on these other

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Speaker 1: pieces in terms of Ukraine. And so I think that

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Speaker 1: for him is a big part of the reason why

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Speaker 1: he flipped so quickly on some of these items.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean after October seventh, the cause for Ukraine

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Speaker 3: with voters became you know, maybe even it may have

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Speaker 3: actually hurt how voters feel towards Ukraine because of exactly

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Speaker 3: the dynamics you just outlined, Crystal.

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Speaker 1: We're getting more of a look at how the US

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Speaker 1: is going to respond to, you know, first Israel's attack

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Speaker 1: on the Iranian embac and Damascus, and then the Iranian response.

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Speaker 1: So no sanctions or accountability for Israel. However, we are

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Speaker 1: going to levy even more sanctions on Iran. Apparently, let's

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Speaker 1: put this up on the screen. This is initially reported

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Speaker 1: by Barack Ravid Treasury to greenlight new Iran sanctions after

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Speaker 1: Israel attack. If you read his report, he says Treasury

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Speaker 1: Secretary Janet Yellen preparing fresh sanctions for Iran, vowing that

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Speaker 1: the US will not hesitate to inflict economic punishment in

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Speaker 1: response to the Islamic Republic's unprecedented attack on ISRAELI goes

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Speaker 1: on to say, why it matters present Biden is urging

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Speaker 1: bb to exercise military restraint, but in the economic sphere,

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Speaker 1: the administration is demonstrating a willingness to retaliate against Iran.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the things obviously that has absolutely

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Speaker 1: enraged me in the discussion of this, you know, Iran

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Speaker 1: Israel incredibly dangerous escalation is the attacks on Israel were

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Speaker 1: described by many as quote unquote unprovoked, when of course

434
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: they were not unprovoked. They were very directly and by

435
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 1: the way, very intentionally provoked by net Yahoo with that

436
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: attack on the Iranian consular building in Damascus. So the

437
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 1: US to avoid having to condemn Israel over that attack

438
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 1: on the embassy, which you know is very clear cut

439
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: violation of Vienna Conventions, violation of international law, just complete

440
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: warding of all sorts of international norms, and by the way,

441
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: makes our own embassy officials and consular employees less safe

442
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: because it opens up this door to any state actor

443
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: around the world. So to avoid condemning them, but also

444
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: to avoid signing on to the notion that embassies are

445
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: just like open season and fair game. At this point,

446
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: the administration has been playing this game of pretending like

447
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: they don't really know whether or not this was actually

448
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: an Iranian consular building. Matthew Miller was pressed on this

449
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: by the incomparable Matt Lee. Let's take a listen how

450
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 1: that went down.

451
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 6: Have you guys decided to get our minute determination about

452
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 6: whether what Israel hit in Damascus was a diplomatic or not.

453
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: We have not.

454
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: We have not.

455
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 6: So how long is this going to take?

456
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 7: I can't answer that question. We're continuing to look into it.

457
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 7: I don't have a time to but it's something that

458
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 7: we need to. We need to gather enough information that

459
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 7: will allow us to make a determination.

460
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 6: You have no one on the ground in Syria.

461
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 7: We have a range, as I said to you when

462
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 7: the last time you engage with me on this question,

463
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 7: we have a range of abilities, a range of ways

464
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 7: to gather information. They're partner countries of ours who are

465
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 7: on the ground. We have intelligence capabilities off obviously, and

466
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 7: we're continuing to gather information, but we've not yet been

467
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 7: able to determinate.

468
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 6: I get it. But you were pretty quick into you know,

469
00:24:52,040 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 6: condemning the you know, the invasion of the Mexican embassy.

470
00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 7: And that was a very clear, well established This is

471
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 7: something that is taking a little bit more time. And

472
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 7: that's not the question. The question was what is it

473
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 7: is it was it an embassy or a consulate or not,

474
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 7: And it was very clear, very clear in the case

475
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 7: of the Mexican it's something that we're gathering information on

476
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 7: and we continue to gather information, we don't have a determination.

477
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: How hard is it to figure that out? I mean,

478
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: the truth of the matter is, of course they know

479
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: they answer, because if it wasn't a consulate building or

480
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: some sort of a diplomatic building, they would instantly have

481
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: said so. But the fact that they're dragging their feet, Oh,

482
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: we're doing an investigation, we promise, we'll get back to you,

483
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: tells you everything that you need to know, and is

484
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: yet another instance of how they completely ignore or dispatch

485
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: with any sort of the previous norms that they claim

486
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: to care about when it comes to Israel. So no

487
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: sanctions forthcoming on Israel or their incredible provocation here that

488
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: any country would be rightly outraged by, but they are

489
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: going to apparently retaliate against Iran or responding to that provocation.

490
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the one thing that drives me absolutely

491
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: crazy in the diplomatic conversations about these conflicts. It's that

492
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 3: the sanctity of international law is obviously and this is

493
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 3: not new, but it is used as just a blunt

494
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 3: force object and tossed around like a football. But it's

495
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 3: not serious, and we know it's not serious. Matthew Miller

496
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: knows it's not serious. Republican administrations and democratic administrations know

497
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 3: it's not serious. It's publicly very sanctimonious. But they know

498
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 3: that they're using international law, that sort of shield of

499
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: international law as a tool as a political weapon when

500
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: it suits them, and then they drop it when it's inconvenient.

501
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 3: And there are serious geopolitical implications for doing that, which

502
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 3: is why they do it in fact. Actually, but I

503
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 3: don't think that they've you know, even after all of

504
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: these decades reckoned with how seriously it hurts the credibility

505
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 3: of the United States.

506
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 4: And again, you can go back years, you can go

507
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 4: back to the Cold War.

508
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 3: And have conversations about how we talk about international law

509
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 3: and such, you know, rarefied terms when it suits us,

510
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,239
Speaker 3: and then drop it when it doesn't. And this is

511
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 3: a pretty clear cut example, as Mattley was getting at,

512
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 3: just their crystal of us doing that.

513
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it once again raises the question of how

514
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: is any of this in our interests? Because, yeah, now

515
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: our people who are at embassies around the world are

516
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: less safe because we have allowed this door to be

517
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: completely opened, and of course the storming of the Mexican embassy,

518
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: you know, immediately after that is not an accident, and

519
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: yes we had something to say about that, but it

520
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: was not nearly the condemn nation that likely would have

521
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: come without Israel's actions, because they know that they look

522
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: like absolute hypocrites. And same thing with the language that

523
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: was previously used about Ukraine, you know, the humanitarian language,

524
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: language about international law, about atrocities, about genocide, eve and

525
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: suddenly we don't hear anything about that because they know

526
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: how hypocritical they sound. And how you know when it

527
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: comes to Israel, Oh, is was it a war crime? Well,

528
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: we don't know. We need to get a lawyer. I'm

529
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: not a lawyer who can really say. When it was Russia,

530
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: they could say right away and they knew right away

531
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: what was going on. The Other thing I wanted to

532
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: mention about that Matt Miller interaction is that is such

533
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: a classic tactic of oh, we're doing an investigation, but

534
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: you never hear the results of these investigations, right, they

535
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: never come so and you know, there was an investigation

536
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: into the murder of the young girl Hinn who was

537
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: assassinated by the way. Washing Post has a new report

538
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: on this while she was in a car waiting for

539
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: medics to come rescue her. Also, her would be medic

540
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: rescuers were also targeted and assassinated, even though they were

541
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: coordinating directly with IDF deconflicted, giving them their coordinates, telling them,

542
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: waited hours to respond, telling them where they moved. These

543
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: investigations are apparently you launched by the State Department and

544
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: never come to any sort of conclusion. Something else that

545
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: by the way, matt Lee has pressed Matthew Miller on

546
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: all these variety of you know, massacres and atrocities that

547
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: supposedly they're looking into. That. Oh, we never get the

548
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: results of those, We never hear anything more about it,

549
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: and we just move on to the next outrage. Speaking

550
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: of investigations into atrocities, the UN has been attempting to

551
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: conduct an investigation into atrocities committed against Israelis on October seventh,

552
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: and somewhat shocking, Lamb and I guess I shouldn't be

553
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: completely surprised, but Israel has actually blocked and obstructed them,

554
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: according to that UN panel, in their attempt to investigate

555
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: the acts that occurred on October seventh. Let's put this

556
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: up on the screen. So this is from the Jerusalem Posts.

557
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: They say un Commission accuses Israel of obstructing in October

558
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: seventh probe, one of the members of the commission said

559
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: they saw active obstruction by Israel of our efforts to

560
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: receive evidence from Israeli witnesses and victims. And I'll read

561
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: you the quote from this individual, Chris Sadati. He says,

562
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: so far as the government of Israel is concerned, we've

563
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: not only seen a lack of cooperation, but active obstruction

564
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: of our efforts to receive evidence from Israeli witnesses and

565
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: victims the events that occurred in southern Israel. And he said,

566
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: we have contact with many, but we would like to

567
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: have contact with more. The Israeli's claim they say, oh, well,

568
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: victims would never get any justice or the dignified treatment

569
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: they deserve from the Commission of Inquiry and its members,

570
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: which they describe as having a track record of anti

571
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: Semitic and anti israel statements. Obviously the go to anytime

572
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: you want to smear someone and you don't like what

573
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: they had to say about you in the past, just

574
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,959
Speaker 1: throughout that they must be anti Semitic. But I think

575
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: it's pretty extraordinary Emily that basically they've instructed witnesses and

576
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: survivors inside of Israel not to cooperate with this investigation,

577
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: not into Israel's actions now in the Gaza Strip, but

578
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: into the atrocities that were committed by Hamas and other

579
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: Islamic militant groups on October seventh, and Israel apparently doesn't

580
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: want the details of that day to come out. I

581
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of logical conclusions as to why,

582
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: or speculation that you could get into. One is that

583
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: the Israeli IDF response was pathetic. You had many people

584
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: who were desperately waiting for hours and hours for anyone

585
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: to come and help them, and that help was not forthcoming.

586
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: So that's a very unflattering light. And then we do

587
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: have some of these instances which have been documented by

588
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: the New York Times and Haratz and other outlets at

589
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: this point where some of the victims, not a majority,

590
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: not all. I'm not trying to downplay the atrocites of

591
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: Hamas on that day, but some of the victims did

592
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: come from quote unquote friendly fire from the Israelis on

593
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: that day, and I'm sure they don't want a light

594
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: shone on that either.

595
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 4: And you know, this is one of the I agree

596
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 4: with both of those points.

597
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: And one of the complicated things of the UN in

598
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: this region is that talking to Ryan about this last week,

599
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 3: it's absolutely true that in such a concentrated and densely

600
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: populated area like Gaza, it's really like for the UN

601
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: to operate for aid, for humanitarian aid.

602
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 4: For geopolitical diplomacy.

603
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 3: For all of that to happen, you're you're going to

604
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: have crossover between the population that is supportive of Hamas,

605
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: maybe even some active supporters of Hamas and the UN

606
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 3: and things like UNRA because Hamas is the de facto

607
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: government and so for that from Israel's perspective, UNRA does

608
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: have some real problems where if you're Israel and you

609
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: look at you know, for example, the much publicized textbooks,

610
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: you're going to be like, oh my gosh, why would

611
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 3: I want to, you know, hand over all of this information,

612
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera.

613
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 4: But it gets back to what we were just talking about.

614
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 3: That countries like the United States and Israel will use

615
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 3: the UN when it's convenient and not use the UN

616
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: when it's not. And I do again, I think that

617
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: is a real problem. So on the one hand, I

618
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 3: totally understand in some cases why Israelis are like, this

619
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 3: is the most sensitive information. Uh, this is you know, victims,

620
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: this is people's lives, people's deaths, And we don't trust

621
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 3: the UN right now because of you know, some of

622
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: these legitimately documented patterns at UNRA but and in other

623
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: parts of the UN. But that's not consistent with the

624
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 3: approach towards the UN. And I think it is, you know,

625
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: in some ways more political, but it's it's an unfortunate

626
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 3: situation all around because what we do want our answers

627
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 3: on what happened about what happened on October seventh, that

628
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: might make the Israeli government look pretty bad, yeah, or

629
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: might make anybody you know look pretty bad. And we

630
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: can't get that information from an investigation in a way

631
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 3: that we can trust, because nobody trusts the investigators. So

632
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 3: we're not getting any closer to the truth. And what

633
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 3: we really need is the truth, but we're not in

634
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: a position to get it right now.

635
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: These Israelis are so funny when it comes to the

636
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: UN because you know, when it comes to the nineteen

637
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: forty eight UN partition plan, well, that's that's set and stone.

638
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 4: Right, that's the UN.

639
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: It was the UN, and they didn't listen to the UN.

640
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: How could you, right, Yes, when it comes to this

641
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: ceasefire resolution that just passed the UN Security Council, Oh,

642
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: we're just going to pretend that didn't happen at all.

643
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: We're not going to listen to that whatsoever. When it

644
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: comes to the report that was issued regarding the rape

645
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: in the context of October seventh, well that they were

646
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: very happy to embrace. When it comes to this report,

647
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: which they expect would shine an unflattering light on them

648
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 1: in a variety of ways, well, we're not going to cooperate.

649
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: What's and we're going to claim that you're anti Semitic.

650
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 8: Right.

651
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: When it comes to Iran's Israel attacking the Iranian Consulate, well,

652
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear what the UN has to

653
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: say about that. But when it comes to Iran responding,

654
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: suddenly they want an emergency meeting of the UN Security

655
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: Council to issue some sort of a condemnation. So it's

656
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: just so incredibly naked. And then just the blanket calls

657
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: of anti Semitism at every turn, are you know, I

658
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: just don't think that they're landing By the way the

659
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: same way that they once did. Because at this point

660
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: even Joe Biden has been smeared as like pro Hamas.

661
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: It's just ridiculous the number of things that have been

662
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: labeled anti Semitic, pro hamas, pro terrorist, et cetera. So

663
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: it starts to fall on deaf years, and that's a

664
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: real loss because anti Semitism is a real problem, it

665
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: is a real scourge. And when you casually throw around

666
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: this language anti Semitism blood libel about accurately describing what

667
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: happening in Gaza or about accurate or legitimate criticism of

668
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: the Israeli government, the term becomes meaningless, and then it

669
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: helps to fuel an actual, you know, legitimate rise in

670
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: anti Semitism as well, it makes people more skeptical of

671
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: that claim being made in every instance, speaking of you know,

672
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: some of the mythology around October seventh that we know

673
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: there were horrific atrocities. Those atrocities should be condemned by

674
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: any decent person where they were committed against civilians. Yet

675
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: we know there were some stories that were fabricated in

676
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: order to serve as a real justification or barbarism against

677
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: Palestinians in Gaza. You know, the beheaded babies, the baby

678
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: baked in the oven. We've got a new example of that,

679
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: although this one got shot down almost immediately. Put this

680
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: up on the screen. So you had a number of

681
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: outlets reporting that among survivors the Nova Music Festival, which

682
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: was one of the worst scenes of carnage on October seventh,

683
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: there was a claim made that there had been almost

684
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: fifty suicides among those survivors. Now, this claim on its

685
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: face seems fairly outrageous and outlandish, but a number of outlets,

686
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: including the Daily Beasts here report this just uncritically. Well,

687
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: this was so sort of out there of a claim

688
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: emily that it was almost immediately shot down, even by

689
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: the Israeli health ministers. Put this up on the screen.

690
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: Head of the Israeli Health Ministry was asked about this

691
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: and said directly that this was not true. He said,

692
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: based on an examination connected with the Nova Community Association

693
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: as well as with other parties, it emerged such data

694
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 1: is unknown. But he also said directly that the rumors

695
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: about number of suicides and hospitalizations are not true. So

696
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: another attempt to you know, again, the atrocity on that

697
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: day were enough, they were horrifying enough, but there's this

698
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: constant desire to create the most horrifying, you know, visual

699
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: imagery and notion of what occurred on that day in

700
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: an attempt very directly to justify things that are even

701
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: under the worst circumstances, not justifiable, being done against children

702
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: and women and civilian infrastructure in the Gaza strip.

703
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 3: This is I mean again, we're talking about the Jerusalem Post.

704
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 3: It's not like this is and this is in where

705
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: the Health Ministry pushed back on this, So it's not

706
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 3: like this is just coming from this This pushback is

707
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 3: just coming from the Israeli government either. I mean, this

708
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 3: is media is actually focusing on it. I think that's

709
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 3: worth noting too, that there's you know, a real again,

710
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: I think, thirst for the truth on these questions, because

711
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: you know, for Israelis, they're so sensitive and rightfully so,

712
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 3: about the truth and about what really happened and about

713
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: the victims here. And so I feel like, actually, Crystal,

714
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: it's interesting even to see places like the Jerusalem Post

715
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 3: looking critically at claims like this and as they should

716
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: be and as all of us should be, and this

717
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: particular one based on the Health Ministry, which I can't imagine.

718
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of what reason they would have

719
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 3: to sort of actively push back on this if it

720
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 3: were you know, plausible, if it were true. This narrative

721
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 3: really had holes poked in it just about right away.

722
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: And you know, to your point earlier about how there's

723
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot more skepticism than maybe there

724
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: was in the past, I think this really goes along

725
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 3: with that. With that argument, This totally confirms that.

726
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 4: I think.

727
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to lose cite of as we talk

728
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: about what might happen between Iran and Israel and the

729
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: US and sit here on the brink of you know,

730
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: potentially terrifying further escalation, all of which is still very

731
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: on the table, very much on the table. I don't

732
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: want to lose sight of what continues to be the

733
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: reality in Gaza, where you have millions of people continuing

734
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: to starve, You have northern Gaza in famine. You had

735
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: people that we covered yesterday trying to return to their

736
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: homes in northern Gaza who were shot at The very

737
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: latest report out of Gaza is that you had eleven

738
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: children who were killed as they were playing at a

739
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: playground in Rafa, of course being the place where there

740
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: is a planned invasion where more than a million Palestinians

741
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: have been pushed in are sheltering in imporrent conditions at

742
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: this point. So they had built this playground for the

743
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: children to help take their mind off of the horrors

744
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: and the trauma that they've all experienced, and they came

745
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: under fire and were killed by Israelis. Let's take a

746
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: listen to a little bit of this report from Anjazira.

747
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 9: Looking at a very horrific talk that just took place

748
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 9: at a Maazi refuge account within the past forty five

749
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 9: minutes or so and a drone fire, the missiles and

750
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 9: a group of people.

751
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: Later on, we learned.

752
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 9: It from eyewitness in the area that this were a

753
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 9: group of children at a playground that was set up

754
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 9: near a camp for displaced families, and those children are

755
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 9: regularly visiting displayground. And just as a father of three

756
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 9: children understand how why displaced families would send their kids

757
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 9: just for an hour or a couple hours, just to

758
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 9: keep them entertained and release the release the old, the

759
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 9: negative energy in them. Because right now, displaced families have

760
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 9: the hardest time inside tents or inside other people's residential

761
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 9: homes trying to stay protected and save, but it's as

762
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 9: necessary as also stay in safe just to give space

763
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 9: to those children. So eleven children have been killed in

764
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 9: this attack, and just one wonder what spread these children

765
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 9: have opposed to have the Israeli military fire and missilely

766
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 9: drawn on them. Eleven reported killed, with more with dozens

767
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 9: of injuries in the area. Those who had the scene

768
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 9: of the attack describe horrific scenes of children torn apart

769
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 9: by the massive explosion caused by the missiles.

770
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: Just unimaginable and emily. I think the fact that there

771
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: was starting to be more of a focus on both

772
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: the humanitarian situation and the level of devastation annihilation that

773
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: has been you know, committed in the Gaza strip. I

774
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: think that's part of the reason for the timing of

775
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: Israel's strike on the Iranian consulate was exactly to get

776
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: these sorts of stories out of the news. They're starting

777
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: to be, you know, a little bit of different language

778
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: being used, especially after the World Central Kitchen Aid workers

779
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: had been killed. That really structure the heart of a

780
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: lot of liberals who personally know Jose Andres and you know,

781
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: now a story such as this is not going to

782
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: really get airtime much of anywhere, as everyone just focuses

783
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: on and understandably the you know, the situation where Iran

784
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: is very grave, we're obviously covering it here. But I

785
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: think there was an intentional decision to try to push

786
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: these stories out of the news and focus on something

787
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: where you be felt he would be on stronger ground

788
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: with the world community, and also to continue his grip

789
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: on power in Israel, where he's deeply unpopular.

790
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 3: Well, this brings us back to what we talked about

791
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 3: earlier in the show in terms of US funding for

792
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 3: this war. I mean, you could even make the argument

793
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 3: about funding for the war in Ukraine that a lot

794
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 3: of these decisions, by the way, I mean this invasion

795
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 3: of Rafa, Apparently the Yahu said he has a date,

796
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: but our government said they weren't sharing it with them,

797
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: that the Israel was keeping that date private.

798
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 4: They weren't sharing with the US government.

799
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 3: Apparently they're afraid of leaks from the US government, intel

800
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 3: leaks from the US government and from our intelligence community.

801
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 4: That's what we heard.

802
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 3: But the point is this conspiral so quickly and it

803
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 3: can spiral on our dime without our oversight, not that

804
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: our oversight would be that much better, mind you, but

805
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 3: that at at least, you know, people making decisions in

806
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: the US, even if they don't care about the American

807
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: people as much as they should and don't prioritize the

808
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 3: real interests of the American people as much as they should,

809
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 3: are responsive to the American public.

810
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 4: And we're in a position right now.

811
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 3: I think the attacks over the weekend really and the

812
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 3: attack in Damascus really have brought that into focus. You

813
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 3: guys have covered this, You and Soccer have covered this

814
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 3: so excellently. How precarious the situation is right now. Let's

815
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 3: not forget there are other adversaries that are aligned with this.

816
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 3: Russia are on China. All of the sort of recipes

817
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: for a broader conflict, all of the necessary ingredients in

818
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: that recipe of broader conflict are coming together. And I

819
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: don't think anybody feels confident that the Abiden administration or

820
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 3: that Yahoo are just firmly in control of mitigating any

821
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 3: potential explosions. In fact, the Damascus to what happened in

822
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: Damascus underlines that probably for a lot of people, Crystal

823
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 3: and such a fragile geopolitical ecosystem right now.

824
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: And where bb knew he could take such an extraordinarily

825
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 1: provocative and honestly outrageous act and he could get away

826
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: with it because he's gotten away with everything else. So yeah,

827
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, I mean, listen, Bibe has the lion's share

828
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: of the blame. I would say Joe Biden is basically

829
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: equally culpable for creating this incredibly dangerous situation, which is,

830
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: you know, something they claim to want to avoid From

831
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: the beginning of this conflict, they claimed they wanted to

832
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: avoid this broader war. Well, even without this direct Iranian escalation,

833
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: we had already seen this conflict spread beyond Gaza, talking

834
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: about Yemen, a rack, Syria ra and troops coming under

835
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: fire and in some instances being killed, So that cat

836
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: is already out of the bag. Now what we're staring

837
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 1: down is something even more terrifying, which you know, there

838
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: was a report. I don't know if you saw this,

839
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if this is true because

840
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: it's from a new sources that I'm not particularly familiar with,

841
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: But there was this report that the Biden administration got

842
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: in touch with Iran after the you know, Iranian attack

843
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: on Israel and said, hey, how about you just let

844
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: Israel respond just like a little response and don't do

845
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: anything like can you imagine can you imagine another country

846
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: asking us like, hey, if they directly attack your country,

847
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 1: could you just like not really care about that? Would

848
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: that be fine with you? And according to the report,

849
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: which again I don't know if this is accurate, but

850
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: it was reported by a few different news sources, the

851
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: Iranians will of course like piss off, like no, we're

852
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: not going to listen to you, and just be fine

853
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: if Israel directly attacks us back after they were the

854
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: ones again with this initial provocation attacking our embassy and

855
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: killing our people.

856
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's weird.

857
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 3: It's like, not that it is surprising, but it is

858
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 3: creepy and disturbing. How reports suggests that there's this almost

859
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 3: stage managing of the conflict and saying you're allowed to

860
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 3: know the reports are with Iran, with Israel, you're allowed

861
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 3: to do something you know at this like that is

862
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 3: proportional to this, and then they're allowed to do something

863
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: that's proportional to that, as though this is going to

864
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 3: totally mitigate the possibility of an explosion in this conflict, which,

865
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: by the way, the safety of Israelis and Netanyah, who's

866
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: popularity in israel I think speaks to this, or lack

867
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 3: of popularity or his difficulty with his political coalition speaks

868
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 3: to this. Obviously, israel Is we're not safer under net

869
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 3: Nyahu because of October seventh. That's not to blame him

870
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 3: for the actions of Hamas, but that is to say

871
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 3: that he was in charge of the country and there

872
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 3: are a lot of serious questions that need to be

873
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: asked about the security of the Israeli people on October seventh,

874
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 3: on October sixth, before October seventh, and going.

875
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 4: Forward as well.

876
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 3: Is he managing is he prosecuting a war in a

877
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 3: way that protects the people of Israel as much as

878
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 3: they deserve to be protected?

879
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 4: Are we doing that? Are we? Are we keeping American

880
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 4: lives out of the Middle East? Are we minimizing the

881
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 4: possibility of boots on the ground in the Middle East

882
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 4: right now? And our prosecution of this war and our

883
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 4: funding of this war, same thing goes for Ukraine. I

884
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 4: don't think anybody gone has confidence that the answer to

885
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 4: that question is yes.

886
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the last thing I'll conclude with and then

887
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: we can move to other ways in which Congress you know,

888
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: really has their eye on the ball with all of

889
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: this and the you know, I think the free speech

890
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: moment on the right being officially dead and gone. But

891
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: it brings me back to that quote that was leaked

892
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: to an Israeli news station where someone who's in the

893
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: room said, you know, if Israelis were privy to the

894
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: conversations that are going on in the war cabinet right

895
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: now about how to potentially respond to Iran, there would

896
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: be four million Israelis rushing to the airport trying to

897
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: get out of this country. So shows you some of

898
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: the insanity that is at least being contemplated from the

899
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: Israelis right now, and which obviously directly implicates all of

900
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: us in a way that should leave a genuinely fearful

901
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 1: and quite wary of where this is all headed.

902
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 3: In part because, by the way, there's similar insanity in

903
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 3: Iran about what they want to happen to Israel. Like

904
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 3: that's why the threat is so acute and so real,

905
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 3: because these are deep religious and in some ways irrational

906
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 3: conflicts that you can't stage manage out of existence, and

907
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 3: that there are like actual desires among some radicals to

908
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 3: wipe Israel off the face of the earth in the

909
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 3: way that you know Israel wants a one state solution

910
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 3: or something like that. There are also people like in

911
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 3: Iran that don't want Israel to exist and in fact

912
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 3: don't want Jews to exist. So the possibility for something

913
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: that jeopardizes the safety of Jews in Israel, of Jews

914
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 3: around the world is not nil. And you know, obviously

915
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 3: not Yah who knows that. Obviously supporters of Netanyaho.

916
00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 4: Not in Yahoo know that.

917
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: But whether you know the sort of bold like boisterous

918
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 3: provocations are the best way to minimize that possibility is

919
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 3: an open question at best.

920
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't really think it is an open question.

921
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 1: But your right to point to the fact that BB

922
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: has wanted this war with Iran for a long time

923
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: and was deeply opposed to any sort of improvement in

924
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 1: diplomatic ties with the US, deeply opposed to the Iranian

925
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: nuclear deal as one example, you know, sort of made

926
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: the initial split and made support for Israel more partisan

927
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: by coming here under Obama. So yeah, there's a long end, complicated,

928
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,959
Speaker 1: intense history, there no doubt about it. Let's go ahead

929
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: and move on to some of the things that the

930
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: Congress is up to so in addition to passing yet

931
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: another resolution on anti semitism, this one condemning the protest

932
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: chant from the River to the Sea as being anti

933
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: semit No word on whether it's the anti semitic when

934
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: it comes from b B himself or from the LACUD

935
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: party charter, from his son or whatever. Anyway. They also

936
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 1: are convening yet another panel and calling forth yet another

937
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: university president to speak on their actions to combat anti

938
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: Semitism on campus. The Columbia University president is set to

939
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 1: testify to that same Congressional panel that caused the whole

940
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: uproar last time around, which we of course covered here

941
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 1: and led to a number of them losing their jobs.

942
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: That president is out with a Wall Street journal at

943
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: ed to try to sort of set the stage for

944
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: what they're going to say. The headline here at Columbia

945
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,760
Speaker 1: University President, what I plan to tell Congress tomorrow. Anti

946
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: Semitism and calls for genocide have no place at a university.

947
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: My priority has been the safety and security of our community,

948
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: but at leaves plenty of room for robust disagreement and debate.

949
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: Let me read you a little bit of this. Also,

950
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: her notes were leaked about how she plans to talk

951
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: about this issue, and very similar to what's laid out

952
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: in the op ed here. But the op ed reads,

953
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: while disagreement and debate are to be welcomed at a university,

954
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: that should happen within specific parameters, calling for the genocide

955
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 1: of a people, whether they are Israeli or Palestinians, Jews, Muslims,

956
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: or anyone else, has no place in a university community.

957
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: Such words are outside the balance of legitimate debate and

958
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,760
Speaker 1: unimaginably harmful. Second, well, there may be some easy cases,

959
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: drawing the line between permissible and impermissible campus speech is

960
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: enormously difficult, And then she continues and thinking about these

961
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: boundaries of permissible speech. One idea we have adopted at

962
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: Columbia is to define a designated space for protests. This

963
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 1: approach allows for fewer limits on speech, usually a desirable

964
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: value at a university because those who don't want to

965
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: hear what is being said need not listen. It also

966
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 1: means the core functions of university teaching and learning can

967
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 1: continue uninterrupted. There's a few things about this. There's actually

968
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 1: a lot to say about the SAP ed. First of all,

969
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: on the alleged calls for genocide, and this came up

970
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,720
Speaker 1: in the context of the initial congressional hearings that caused

971
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: such a fuss on this. There's no specifics, there's no

972
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: specific examples of students actually doing this. And so are

973
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: you talking about just a call for equal rights from

974
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: the river to the sea, are you calling about you know,

975
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: talking about the chance to globalize the Intifada? What are

976
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: you referring to tiers specifically? Because there's been this pretense

977
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: that there's some outbreak of outright genocidal language occurring on

978
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: college campuses. And I'm not going to say there's not

979
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: a single instance or there isn't genuine anti semitism out there.

980
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: I think that'd be a ridiculous thing to say. But

981
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: we never seem to see these instances of this supposed

982
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: call for genocide against the Jews happening on college campuses,

983
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 1: So it's left very vague. And then in addition, what

984
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: you've actually seen in terms of Colombia is a real

985
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: crackdown on the rights of students, and in a very

986
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 1: one sided way. Colombia is being sued actually right now

987
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: for unlawfully banning multiple pro Palestine groups. So the New

988
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,720
Speaker 1: York Civil Liberties Union and a Palestinian rights organization filed

989
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: a lawsuit against Columbia University so that you had Justice

990
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: and Students for Justice in Palestine and Columbia barn Are

991
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: Jewish Boys for Peace both banned and Columbia administrator previously

992
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: said the group's repeatedly violated college policies like holding unauthorized

993
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: events and that the gathering included threatening rhetoric and intimidation.

994
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: But once again, there's no specifics given about what that

995
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: rhetoric or what that intimidation is. They just sort of

996
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 1: came in over the top and shut down these two groups.

997
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 1: And you also have an incident which was pretty horrif

998
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: buying where a number of pro Palestine activists were sprayed

999
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: by some sort of a chemical irritant. There was a

1000
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: recent Al Jazeera documentary about what happened, and the investigation,

1001
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: which from the university side has basically gone nowhere into

1002
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: what was effectively a chemical attack against pro Palestinian demonstrators.

1003
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 1: Let's watch a little bit of that kind of got

1004
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it smells like someone is dying.

1005
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 8: We smelled that.

1006
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 4: That's what I was hospitalized for severe bored version.

1007
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 10: These students are describing the moment they suffered an alleged

1008
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 10: chemical attack during a pro Palestine rally at one of

1009
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 10: the world's most prestigious universities. Students say the chemical smelled

1010
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 10: like skunk, which has been used by Israeli forces against Palestinians.

1011
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: We're not safe in the West Bank, We're not safe

1012
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 1: in Gaza. Even in the US, we aren't safe.

1013
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 10: In this report, we revealed previously unpublished images and footage

1014
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 10: of suspicious activity at the protest. More than two months

1015
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 10: after the incident, no suspects have been named, while students

1016
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 10: speaking up or Palestinian rights have received death threats, been doxed,

1017
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 10: and targeted by professors.

1018
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: Does me being Palestinian? Does that inherently mean I'm a terrorist?

1019
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 1: That's how they're treating us so emily to me, The

1020
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: bottom line here of this congressional inquiry is you'll have

1021
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people who talked a big game about

1022
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 1: free speech who suddenly are dragging university president before them

1023
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: to demand more censorship and more crackdowns on free speech.

1024
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: And I doubt, at least from the Republicans side, we're

1025
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: going to hear much in terms of questioning about the cancelation,

1026
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: the banning of these activist groups and the investigation into

1027
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: what happened to these students.

1028
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I agree that this is a real

1029
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 3: challenge for conservatives, for elected Republicans who have held all

1030
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 3: kinds of hearings on campuses in the last several years,

1031
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 3: and Columbia is a place where that dilemma I think

1032
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: is in sharp focus. They had from the very pros

1033
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 3: or a Washington Free Beacon right now, but they have

1034
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 3: an interesting report, they say. During a January fifth interview

1035
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 3: with socialist podcast Revolutionary Left Radio, Islamic scholar Mohammad Abdu

1036
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 3: declared his support for Hamas and the quote resistance the

1037
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 3: terror groups quote dedicated few. He said admiringly worked in

1038
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 3: quote stealth mode on October seventh to defeat a larger

1039
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 3: enemy in Israel. Just days later, on January sixteenth, Columbia

1040
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 3: University's Middle East Institute extended a quote warm welcome to Abdu,

1041
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 3: the Ivy League School's latest visiting professor in Modern Arab studies,

1042
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 3: and it goes on later in the article to quote

1043
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 3: him four days after October seventh, saying, yes, I'm with

1044
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 3: the resistance be it Hamas and Hesbalah and Islamic jihad,

1045
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 3: and he talked about false reports accusing Arabs and Muslims

1046
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 3: of decapitating the heads of children and being rapists, and

1047
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 3: he said, I might be with Hamas and support the

1048
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 3: resistance absolutely.

1049
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 4: Look what the fifteen hundred did.

1050
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 3: They were organized, and they worked in stealth mode, and

1051
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 3: they divested. Judith Butler, who is an academic, also has

1052
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: referred to Hamas and has as the quote resistance for

1053
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 3: a long time, and I think that's honestly, I think

1054
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 3: that's protected speech. That's I think it's a challenge for

1055
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 3: conservatives and Republicans to sort of live up to the

1056
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 3: game that they've talked. Now, whether it's protected speech is

1057
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 3: somewhat a different question as to whether that's someone worthy of,

1058
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 3: you know, being a visiting professor of Arab studies. You know,

1059
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 3: I think it's entirely an ideological disagreement. People can can

1060
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 3: talk about Hamas and Hezbollah in the context of being

1061
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 3: the resistance. I personally find that to be abhorrent. But it's,

1062
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 3: you know, something that should be debated obviously, out in

1063
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 3: the open and not sort of relegated to these corners

1064
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 3: where it festers. I don't think that's healthy, whether it's

1065
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 3: happening on the fringes of the outright or the sort

1066
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 3: of fringes in this situation.

1067
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 4: Either.

1068
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 3: If I were the head of Columbia University, I would

1069
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 3: look at that and I'd be like, well, maybe we

1070
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 3: need someone who brings like slightly more balance to this

1071
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 3: question at our school, or slightly more nuanced to this

1072
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 3: question than referring to Hamas and Hausbla as potentially the

1073
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 3: resistance and admiringly talking about their stealth mode on October seventh.

1074
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 3: But this is a I actually think this is a

1075
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 3: really helpful example for Republicans that it is really difficult

1076
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 3: to stand up for free speech on campus when it's

1077
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 3: you know, somebody like this, as opposed to when it's

1078
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 3: you know, your own speakers.

1079
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 1: Well, that's the point of free speech, That's the whole thing.

1080
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: Is it only matters when it's speech that you disagree with,

1081
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: that you may despise, that you may find abhorrent. That's

1082
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: when the principle actually matters. When it's something everybody's cool

1083
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: with and comfortable with, well, you don't really need those

1084
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: protections because it's going to be fine, you know, in

1085
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: another instance of how quickly the language from the right

1086
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: on all of this has flipped. You know, all these

1087
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: concerns about like student safety, You see that in this

1088
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: instance of the Columbia University president being called to testify

1089
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 1: about protecting Jewish student making sure they don't feel unsafe

1090
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: on campus, not because they're physically threatened, but because they

1091
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: might hear something at a protest that makes them feel unsafe.

1092
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: You also had that same safety language being used by USC.

1093
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: And let's put this up on the screen. I find

1094
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: this so disgraceful. So they announced that their valedictorian, Asna

1095
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: Tobasom's commencement speech has been canceled. The reason is they said, oh,

1096
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: it was necessary to maintain the safety of our campus

1097
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: and students. So Asna was selected valedictorian. She happened to

1098
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: minor in genocide studies, and apparently the university was very

1099
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: fearful that she, as someone who has expressed pro Palestinian views,

1100
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 1: might use some of what she learned at their university

1101
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: about genocide and discussed that in her commencement speech. So

1102
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: they just canceled the whole thing altogether. And just so

1103
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 1: you know that the whole you know, Oh, we're worried

1104
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: about kids safety and safety at graduation, etc. Is complete nonsense.

1105
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: When she spoke to them, they couldn't give her any

1106
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: specific examples of credible threats or other legitimate safety issues

1107
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: that they could identify. But they came under all kinds

1108
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: of pressure from the right and from Jewish groups, in

1109
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: particular who pro Israel groups, I should say, because there

1110
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 1: are plenty of anti Zionist Jewish groups at this point

1111
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: as well. They came under a lot of pressure from

1112
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: pro Israel groups to cancel this speech on a fear

1113
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: for what this accomplished young lady may have to say.

1114
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: She wrote quite an extraordinary response. She said, I'm surprised

1115
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: my own university has abandoned me. She went on to

1116
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 1: say that she's student of history and chose to minor

1117
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: and resistance to genocide, and had learned that ordinary people

1118
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: are capable of unspeakable acts of violence when they are

1119
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: taught hate fueled by fear, and due to widespread fear,

1120
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: I was hoping to use my commencement speech to inspire

1121
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: my classmates with a message of hope. By canceling my speech,

1122
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: USC is only caving to fear and rewarding hatred. Matt

1123
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: Tybee had a notable responses as well that we can

1124
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 1: put up on the screen. He says, all sorts of

1125
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: people are blamed for undermining confidence in institutions, but it's

1126
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 1: usually the institution itself that does the most damage, as

1127
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: in this case. And you know, not hearing a lot

1128
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: from the usual suspects who used to be all about

1129
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: free speech and against cancel culture, etc. At the valedictorian

1130
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: of the school being blocked for speaking because she might

1131
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: say something that they're uncomfortable with.

1132
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, my position is that ideologically, the

1133
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 3: people who have been quote unquote canceled on college campuses

1134
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 3: and worked with a lot of them, like it's like

1135
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 3: I've actually had jobs like working on that stuff before

1136
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 3: should be more mainstream than someone like the Columbia professor

1137
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 3: that we were just talking about. But that doesn't matter

1138
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 3: in this context. The point is that speech is speech,

1139
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 3: and as long as it's not outright incitement, especially at

1140
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 3: public universities, but at universities in general.

1141
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 4: I mean, there's nothing new under the sun you can

1142
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 4: go back to. You know, for example, here's a great example.

1143
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 3: You know, anybody, let's say there were professors of I

1144
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 3: don't know professors of history, professors of war back in

1145
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 3: the Cold War that supported the contrast.

1146
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 4: I don't know that there were a lot of them,

1147
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 4: But I.

1148
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 3: Don't think conservatives would have had a problem about conservatives

1149
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 3: making this kind of ideological argument that it was necessary

1150
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 3: to fund the contras in order to, you know, defeat

1151
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 3: the Soviet Union and win the Cold War. There's Hanoy Jane,

1152
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 3: you know, talking about people like Jane Fonda that were

1153
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,959
Speaker 3: a supportive of the other side in the Vietnam War

1154
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 3: that was killing American soldiers and just making this argument intellectually,

1155
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 3: building this case that it was morally necessary to support

1156
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 3: this force of violence because in their perception, they were

1157
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 3: pushing back on a bigger threat of violence.

1158
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 4: Whatever it is.

1159
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 3: We act like some of these dilemmas are new, and

1160
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 3: they're not. There have always been these arguments on campuses,

1161
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 3: and they have to be aired out on campuses. If

1162
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 3: they're going to be aired out literally anywhere, it should

1163
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 3: be on college campuses where the academics who are the

1164
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 3: kind of backbone of the media and the policy world

1165
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 3: are coming to the sort of different points on how

1166
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 3: we think about these things. So I mean, I agree, Crystal,

1167
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,919
Speaker 3: I think that you know, there's way too little appetite

1168
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 3: for true, genuine freedom of expression, the exchange of ideas

1169
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 3: in the interest of the common good, in the interest

1170
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 3: of understanding each other. So I don't disagree that this

1171
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 3: is a real challenge for conservatives. I still think it's

1172
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 3: a real challenge for the left, and you know, constantly

1173
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 3: deal with that all the time. But when the going

1174
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,959
Speaker 3: gets tough, the tough get going, and I don't see

1175
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 3: as much of that as I think we should.

1176
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 4: But that's no surprise.

1177
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: I guess I at least listen not to pat myself

1178
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 1: on the back, but I really made an attempt, even

1179
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 1: with regard to the next individual about to talk about

1180
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 1: Tom Cotton, to support free speech, even when I genuinely

1181
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: find it horrifying. Right, I have tried my very best

1182
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 1: to be consistent, because that's the whole point, and it's

1183
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 1: not hard. It was not hard for me in those

1184
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 1: instances to see, Okay, well, this censorship is coming against

1185
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: a political adversary right now. But you know, I'm a leftist,

1186
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 1: and no one has been more censored throughout American history

1187
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 1: than the left. So you can see very clearly like

1188
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 1: these tools may be used again them in this particular instance,

1189
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: but they can be used against my ideology. And by

1190
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: the way, that's not really the point anyway. It's about

1191
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: having a commitment to this bedrock principle, whether it's about

1192
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 1: your side or their side, or something in between. So

1193
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: it's just it has always been clear to me because

1194
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 1: there was never any willing to speak out a pro

1195
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 1: palestining people have been getting canceled, you know, long before

1196
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: October seven. You're gonna ask Mark Lamont Hill and any

1197
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 1: number of other folks, Norman Finkelstein how their careers fared

1198
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 1: when they stepped out of the bipartisan consensus with regards

1199
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: to Israel, and there was never any sort of solidarity

1200
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: with those individuals from the right. So as underno illusions here,

1201
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: but it's certainly never been more clear that any purported

1202
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: like right wing free speech moment is outside of some

1203
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: notable exceptions yourself included, is officially over. I've got another

1204
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: example where you hear the aforementioned Senator Tom Cotton, who

1205
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: had put out a tweet regarding some of the protests

1206
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 1: that have propal Simee protests that have shut down roadways,

1207
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 1: including the Golden Gate Bridge for some five hours. He

1208
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: called on people to quote take matters into their own

1209
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 1: hands with regard to these protesters, and then when asked

1210
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 1: to clarify whether he was serious about violence directly against

1211
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: protesters exercising their First Amendment speech rights, he doubled down.

1212
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: In an interview with Fox News, Let's take a listen

1213
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: to what he had to say.

1214
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 8: I agree with you that you have to get to

1215
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 8: the or these criminals early. If something like this happened

1216
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 8: in Arkansas on a bridge there, let's just say, I

1217
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 8: think there'd be a lot of very wet criminals that

1218
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 8: have been tossed overboard, not by law enforcement, but by

1219
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 8: the people who's road their blocking. If they glued their

1220
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 8: hands to car or the pavement, well, probably pretty painful

1221
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 8: to have.

1222
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: Their skin ripped off.

1223
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 8: But I think that's the way we'd handle in Arkansas,

1224
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 8: and I would encourage most people anywhere that gets stuck

1225
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 8: behind criminals lack this who are trying to block traffic

1226
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:06,959
Speaker 8: to take matters in their own hands. There's only usually

1227
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 8: a few of them, and there's a lot of people

1228
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 8: being inconvenience. It's time to put an end to this nonsense.

1229
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: So skin ripped off, thrown off the bridge, take matters

1230
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 1: into their own hands. Emily, your thoughts.

1231
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 3: So, Tom Cotton, I think is making a big mistake

1232
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 3: by saying that for you know, just a pure Let's

1233
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 3: just talk about the style, the public relations superficial level

1234
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 3: right now. If something happens to one of those protesters,

1235
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 3: Tom Cotton, the finger is going to be pointed straight

1236
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 3: at him for incitement. I despise the traffic blocking protests.

1237
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 3: In fact, one of my favorite images from the last

1238
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 3: year is all of these like working class DC residents

1239
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 3: of all different stripes, all different backgrounds, all different you know, ethnicities,

1240
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 3: all of that just like pulling these protesters off one

1241
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,839
Speaker 3: of the major roads in DC. But they were climate

1242
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 3: protesters because you know, nothing violent, but just like moving

1243
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 3: them because I just think it is one of the

1244
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 3: worst possible ways to protest. I think it is you know, illegal,

1245
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:16,480
Speaker 3: and it's not the best use of civil disobedience.

1246
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 4: All of that is all of that said, two things

1247
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 4: can be true.

1248
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,840
Speaker 3: It can be a really bad and illegal way to

1249
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 3: protest without also being something that weren't violent, and something

1250
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 3: that you know, gives Republicans any reason to even wink

1251
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 3: and nod at potential violence. You know, wasn't it in

1252
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 3: Panama that someone shot I think it was a climate

1253
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,720
Speaker 3: protester just last year who was blocking traffic shot and

1254
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 3: killed a climate protester who was blocking traffic just last year.

1255
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:50,760
Speaker 4: So no, I don't think it's right to play fast

1256
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:51,719
Speaker 4: us with this rhetoric.

1257
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 3: Tom Cotton obviously served in both The Rock and Afghanistan,

1258
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 3: I think actually in combat units, and so I'm sure

1259
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 3: that this is really.

1260
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:01,640
Speaker 4: This role for him in a way that it's not

1261
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 4: for myself.

1262
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 3: But it's still I think, really really unwise to be

1263
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 3: playing fast and loose with that physical, violent rhetoric like

1264
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 3: he did there, even if it's a you know, at

1265
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 3: least from a perspective of myself and a lot of

1266
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,640
Speaker 3: conservatives and probably a lot of people in general, a

1267
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:20,960
Speaker 3: really annoying form of protest.

1268
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 1: You could object to the form of protest without calling

1269
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 1: for people to be thrown off a bridge and have

1270
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: theirs get ripped off. You just did it. And Tager

1271
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: and I had a whole debate on some of these

1272
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: protest tactics, which you know, at this point, I.

1273
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:37,639
Speaker 4: Saw, here's pro traffic blocking.

1274
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: He loves that. No, here's my thing that bothers me

1275
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 1: is you have a majority of Democrats and a plurality

1276
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: of independence who are looking at what's happening in Gosen.

1277
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 1: This is a genocide. And yet the amount of emotion

1278
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:01,639
Speaker 1: about that versus some protest tactics that people disagree with

1279
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 1: coming from Tom Cott, I mean, it's just it's nowhere

1280
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 1: near equivalent. And the other thing is, you know, we're

1281
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,759
Speaker 1: talking about hypocrisy, and I remember this amount of upset

1282
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 1: about the inconveniencing of people, et cetera, et cetera. When

1283
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 1: we were talking about this convoy in Canada. What was

1284
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 1: it called? I can't remember freedom kN What was the

1285
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:27,120
Speaker 1: thing that shut down an entire Canadian city? This was celebrated.

1286
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 1: They weren't criminals, they weren't you know, being called for

1287
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 1: them to throw thrown off a bridge and their skin

1288
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:37,840
Speaker 1: ripped off and whatever. So it's only when it's protests

1289
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: that Tom Cotton disagrees with. But certainly suddenly we hear

1290
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: this language, and you know, he is. I think he

1291
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 1: is very credibly the most authoritarian and one of certainly

1292
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 1: the most pro war senators, which is pretty extraordinary thing

1293
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 1: to say. I think pretty consistently, you know, his instincts

1294
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: are incredibly authoritarian, crack down police, date, call in the

1295
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 1: military to crush Black Lives Matter protesters, et cetera. But

1296
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 1: that he can say this on Fox News, which is

1297
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:12,559
Speaker 1: a very the largest cable news network and you know,

1298
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: very mainstream in terms of conservatism, with zero pushback. In

1299
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 1: some ways, I find that to be the most disturbing

1300
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 1: part of all of this, that the idea that people

1301
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 1: should who are people who are trying to get a

1302
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 1: ceasefire and end a genocide, deserve to be thrown off

1303
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 1: a bridge because you disagree with their protest tactics. Yeah,

1304
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 1: I've got a problem with that.

1305
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 4: And I think, by the way, that's one of the

1306
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:41,719
Speaker 4: reasons that this is just totally it's.

1307
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 3: Kind of a tangent. But I think that's one of

1308
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 3: the reasons, like why people like you and Sager and

1309
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 3: Ryan and me and all of us can sit down

1310
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 3: and have these conversations is that we understand that there

1311
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 3: are legitimate reasons, that people have real reasons and real

1312
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 3: arguments as to you know, if you believe something is

1313
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 3: legitimately a genocide, then why would you not be blocking traffic?

1314
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 3: People have real reasons to do what they're doing that

1315
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 3: are rooted in principles, and we might disagree with them,

1316
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 3: and we might find them, you know, abhorrent, or we

1317
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 3: might you know, disagree with the sort of ends or

1318
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 3: the way people justify those ends, but you kind of

1319
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 3: understand that people have their principles, just like by the

1320
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 3: way the warmongers have had their principles of supporting the

1321
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 3: contras in the nineteen eighties. You know, there's the people

1322
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 3: have deeply held beliefs and they act on those deeply

1323
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:36,440
Speaker 3: held beliefs. And the best way to come to consensus

1324
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 3: that serves everyone and to seek justice is to debate it,

1325
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 3: to debate it, and to have a country that allows

1326
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,719
Speaker 3: for that debate to be aired out. So, yeah, really

1327
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 3: unfortunate decision, I think from Don Cotton yesterday. And you know, Crystal,

1328
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 3: there's more more bad news really for the fate of

1329
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 3: protesters around the country, just coming out of the Supreme

1330
01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 3: Court yesterday.

1331
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, so this is maybe the most magnificant thing

1332
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 1: that happened. I know, we've done like a world tour

1333
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 1: of censorship for attacks of First Amendment, but honestly, this

1334
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 1: may be the most significant. Put this up on the screen.

1335
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:13,760
Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court is the headline from box effectively

1336
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: abolishes the right to mass protest in three US states.

1337
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 1: That would be Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas. So basically, the

1338
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:26,759
Speaker 1: Supreme Court decided to allow a lower court decision to stand,

1339
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 1: and that lower court decision stood with a Texas law

1340
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 1: that criminalized a Black Lives Matter protest organizer because something

1341
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:42,559
Speaker 1: illegal happened at his protest that he helped to lead

1342
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 1: and organize. This is de Ray mcasson, who very well

1343
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 1: known Black Lives Matter organizer and activist leader. So the

1344
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 1: idea here isn't that Deray himself did anything illegal, or

1345
01:14:55,920 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 1: even that he incited anyone to do a anything illegal.

1346
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:05,519
Speaker 1: The idea is that he created by even hosting this

1347
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:11,680
Speaker 1: protest where something illegal and violent happened, that he himself

1348
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:16,760
Speaker 1: is culpable and can be found criminally liable or those

1349
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 1: acts of these random people at the protest. I mean,

1350
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 1: this is insane and the reason that the Box article

1351
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 1: I think rightly says this effectively bans protest in these

1352
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 1: three states as long as this decision holds. And like

1353
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 1: I said, it's not that the Supreme Court made a

1354
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: decision they allowed this to stand. So there may be

1355
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:36,880
Speaker 1: there may be a decision down the line that overturns it.

1356
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 1: But you can imagine if you are responsible for the

1357
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 1: actions of every single random person who happens to show

1358
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 1: up at your protest, you could also have bad actors

1359
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 1: who just want to like get you legally in trouble,

1360
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: who show up and cause mischief knowing that it can

1361
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 1: be pinned the blame can be pinned on you. So

1362
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:00,680
Speaker 1: who's going to want to risk that that type of

1363
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 1: criminal liability when the stakes are so extraordinarily high as

1364
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, Currently, this Fifth Circuit decision is the law

1365
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: in much of the American South.

1366
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think this is just so the

1367
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 3: Supreme Court declining to hear this case is one thing.

1368
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 3: It's now being kicked back to the lower courts, who

1369
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 3: could still sort of come to a question on this,

1370
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 3: And it's about.

1371
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:24,480
Speaker 4: Sort of the vagueness of a statute.

1372
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 3: And you know, there's there might be really legitimate legal questions.

1373
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 3: Actually clearly there are, because it's ping ponging back through

1374
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 3: the court about how to interpret something. And it might

1375
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 3: be the case that a law needs to be changed

1376
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 3: in order to prevent the legal confusion here because there

1377
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 3: should be no legal confusion. A person who organizes a

1378
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 3: protest should not be able to be held liable, you know,

1379
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:52,720
Speaker 3: for any violence that happens. And the argument is that

1380
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 3: Duran McKesson was organizing what was you know from it's

1381
01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:01,920
Speaker 3: from the outset by design in illegal protest. But we're

1382
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 3: talking about then civil disobedience, and that doesn't mean, you know,

1383
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 3: you can't have civil disobedience without the violation of laws,

1384
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 3: which means you know, there are laws that you're violating.

1385
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 3: Civil disobedience is that's the concept of it. And so

1386
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 3: if we're going to virtually make it completely impossible by

1387
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:26,080
Speaker 3: holding people liable for things that others do, that's a

1388
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 3: sad day. But I actually expect that as a ping

1389
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:31,360
Speaker 3: pellings through the lower courts, someone's going to figure out

1390
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 3: that a law needs to be changed. Maybe I just

1391
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 3: have more faith in the system. But I think both

1392
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 3: sides obviously benefit from protests at this point.

1393
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 4: Everyone knows that. So I don't know.

1394
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 3: I mean, we're about to talk about a Supreme Court

1395
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 3: case involving January sixth defendants, and so I just think

1396
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 3: there's heightened sensitivity about this, and we're going to have

1397
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:53,640
Speaker 3: a better outcome eventually. The sad thing is that, you know,

1398
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 3: justice delayed is justice denied, and it might take too

1399
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:57,639
Speaker 3: long to get to that point.

1400
01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean Donald Trump used a lot of

1401
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 1: language on January sixth that could be seen much more

1402
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 1: directly as incitement than anything de Ray McKesson is, you know,

1403
01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 1: even alleged to have said on that day. They're not

1404
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 1: even saying like, oh, he incited this, that's not even

1405
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:17,320
Speaker 1: part of the argument. But can you imagine the reaction

1406
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,600
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump was found liable in some ways for

1407
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:23,680
Speaker 1: people who did assault police officers, not because he incited it,

1408
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: but just by being involved in the organization of the protests.

1409
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:28,519
Speaker 1: I think the right would probably have something negative to

1410
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 1: say about that.

1411
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, you know.

1412
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 3: Jenny Thomas and the sort of organization of buses for

1413
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:38,560
Speaker 3: people to march in d C.

1414
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 4: On January sixth.

1415
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:42,679
Speaker 3: There was an original protest that was planned to be peaceful,

1416
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:44,960
Speaker 3: and I talked to tons of people that day that

1417
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 3: were there just they had no idea that there was

1418
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:49,760
Speaker 3: anything that was going to spiral. They were there to

1419
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:52,559
Speaker 3: see Trump's speech, and they were there to like make

1420
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:56,680
Speaker 3: their presence known just in DC and weren't planning to

1421
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:57,400
Speaker 3: go into the Capitol.

1422
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:58,880
Speaker 4: They didn't even know that was on the radar.

1423
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 3: But you know, there were people that supplied resources to

1424
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:09,600
Speaker 3: that original protest that could easily in with really problematic

1425
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 3: interpretations of this law be you know, if DC had

1426
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 3: similar language, could be brought up on charges like Deray McKesson.

1427
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 3: So hopefully this has opened up all of our eyes

1428
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 3: to the dangers of that because you know, conservative protests

1429
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 3: and conservative I guess riots like January six was, you know,

1430
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:34,680
Speaker 3: just not something that a lot of conservatives had to

1431
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:35,599
Speaker 3: think about in the past.

1432
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:38,360
Speaker 4: They are now thinking pretty hard about it.

1433
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 3: So let's hope we can come to some good legal

1434
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,960
Speaker 3: consensus on this question in those states, because there's just no.

1435
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:49,920
Speaker 4: There's no way that can stand. I mean, it's wildly wrong.

1436
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk a little bit about GOTUS and

1437
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 1: what they were contemplating with regard to January six.

1438
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:00,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so absolutely we can go ahead and put this

1439
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 3: first element up on the screen. This is from Megan Kelly,

1440
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,839
Speaker 3: who was following the Supreme Court arguments yesterday on this case.

1441
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:13,200
Speaker 3: Megan's a big Supreme Court argument on whether quote, obstructing

1442
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:16,200
Speaker 3: an official proceeding can form the basis for a criminal

1443
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:20,680
Speaker 3: charge versus J six defendants, including Trump. This is the

1444
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:24,519
Speaker 3: heart of Smith's J six case versus him. Is not

1445
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 3: going well for the government at all. All six Conservatives

1446
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 3: sound like they're on the side of the defense. If

1447
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,439
Speaker 3: they sided with the defense here, it guts Jack Smith's

1448
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 3: DC case against Donald Trump. So let's break down a

1449
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:40,679
Speaker 3: little bit about why that is. There's this tear schuet

1450
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 3: here from scotus Blog. They write, the Supreme Court heard

1451
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 3: that oral argument in the case of a former police

1452
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 3: officer from Pennsylvania who entered the Capitol during the January sixth,

1453
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,360
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one attacks. Joseph Fisher, who was charged with,

1454
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:56,600
Speaker 3: among other things, assaulting a police officer, disorderly conduct in

1455
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:59,639
Speaker 3: the capital, and obstruction of a congressional proceeding, has asked

1456
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:02,480
Speaker 3: the justices to throw out the charge that he obstructed

1457
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:05,479
Speaker 3: an official proceeding, arguing that the law that he was

1458
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 3: charged with violating was only intended to apply to evidence tampering.

1459
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 3: More than three hundred other JA six defendants have been

1460
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:16,320
Speaker 3: charged with violating the law, which, and this is very interesting,

1461
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 3: was enacted as part of the Sarpines Oxley Act in

1462
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:21,840
Speaker 3: the wake of the n Run scandal, and I guess

1463
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:24,439
Speaker 3: people can understand why and then also sort of understand

1464
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:27,599
Speaker 3: why it's narrowly been interpreted in the past to talk

1465
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 3: specifically about that question of evidence tampering Scotis blog rights.

1466
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 3: It's also at the center of two of the charges

1467
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 3: brought by Jack Smith against former President Donald Trump and

1468
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 3: Washington d C. That is the same case in which

1469
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:43,400
Speaker 3: the justices will hear argument on guess what. April twenty fifth,

1470
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,000
Speaker 3: so coming right up right around the corner regarding Donald

1471
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 3: Trump's claims of immunity. So Fisher had sent some text

1472
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,439
Speaker 3: messages in which he indicated to acquaintances Scotis Blog Rights

1473
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:56,240
Speaker 3: that members of Congress can't vote if they can't breathe

1474
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 3: dot dot dot lol, and that he might need his

1475
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 3: police chief to post my bail it might get violent.

1476
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 3: On January sixth, prosecutors say Fisher urged rioters to charge

1477
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 3: and hold the line. In a message on social media

1478
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:12,600
Speaker 3: on January seventh, Fisher wrote that he had been pepperbald

1479
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 3: and pepper sprayed, but entry into the capital was needed

1480
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 3: to send a message that we the people hold the

1481
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:20,280
Speaker 3: real power. So the reason it's important to note those

1482
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:24,719
Speaker 3: quotes is because you can see that Fisher saw, according

1483
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:28,080
Speaker 3: to these messages, at least his entrance into the capitol,

1484
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:31,599
Speaker 3: his sort of violent entrance into the Capitol as an

1485
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:37,200
Speaker 3: intentional act of obstruction of the proceeding of certifying the electors.

1486
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 3: So that's the I think relevant context in that case.

1487
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 3: But if the statute can be interpreted as something that

1488
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 3: goes beyond evidence tampering is actually at the heart of

1489
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:52,760
Speaker 3: the question. That's it's sort of like what we're talking

1490
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 3: about in the last block, Crystal, like two things can

1491
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 3: be true. It can be true that he clearly intended

1492
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:04,480
Speaker 3: to obstruct the proceed without this charge specifically being applicable,

1493
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:09,280
Speaker 3: this post end run charge specifically being implicable. I believe

1494
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:13,479
Speaker 3: Scotis Blog actually has in this article. I'll find the

1495
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:17,040
Speaker 3: exact quote that it's true. This hasn't been interpreted in

1496
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:20,720
Speaker 3: the past. There's not precedent for interpreting this to go

1497
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 3: beyond that narrow question of evidence tampering.

1498
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 4: And if the justices.

1499
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:29,519
Speaker 3: Come down in June July with the ruling here that

1500
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:32,799
Speaker 3: you can't have evidence tampering, that you can't go beyond

1501
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 3: evidence tampering, that's pretty devastating to the case.

1502
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had one judge in the context of

1503
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 1: this case making its way up to the Supreme Court

1504
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 1: acknowledging that outside of the January sixth cases brought this jurisdiction,

1505
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 1: there is no precedent for using the obstruction provision to

1506
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:53,759
Speaker 1: prosecute the type of conduct at issue in this case.

1507
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:56,559
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, amazing this will surprise you.

1508
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 1: I didn't think that the government had good answers to

1509
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 1: this question of Okay, well, how do you get this?

1510
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 1: Where's the limiting principle? So if you have protesters who

1511
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:11,719
Speaker 1: pull a fire alarm during a you know, congressional vote,

1512
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:14,200
Speaker 1: is does that count? Do you can you get thrown

1513
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 1: in prison for that? Now, in reality, none of the

1514
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:22,719
Speaker 1: January sixth protesters who were charged with this, it wasn't

1515
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 1: the only charge they were faced with. So, in other words,

1516
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 1: if you just had someone who you know, trespassed and

1517
01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:30,599
Speaker 1: wasn't hit with any other charges, there was no one

1518
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:33,599
Speaker 1: who this is the only thing. It was used as

1519
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 1: a way to sort of up the ante in terms

1520
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:39,839
Speaker 1: of what the government, what sort of sentences the government

1521
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:43,559
Speaker 1: could obtain here in the language, First of all, you

1522
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 1: do have the context of this was about Enron and

1523
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:49,640
Speaker 1: sarbainez Oxley and all of that, And the language is

1524
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:54,480
Speaker 1: very vague and honestly bakes me pretty uncomfortable. It says impeded.

1525
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:59,680
Speaker 1: One of the words is if you impeded a government proceeding.

1526
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:03,760
Speaker 1: So again, what's the limiting principle there? And how do

1527
01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 1: you make sure that in applying this law you are

1528
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 1: not taking a sledgehammer to other protected speech and other

1529
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:16,440
Speaker 1: sort of protest activities that any of us could easily imagine.

1530
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:21,640
Speaker 1: You even had Katanji Brown Jackson in these arguments expressing

1531
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:26,719
Speaker 1: reservations about what the government is arguing here. She said

1532
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 1: the court should not lose sight of the backdrop of

1533
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:32,280
Speaker 1: a real world context, which I think is what I'm

1534
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 1: speaking to here. And Emily, I think we have some

1535
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:39,559
Speaker 1: of the clips of some of the conservative justices asking

1536
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:41,120
Speaker 1: these critical questions.

1537
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:42,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's go ahead and roll that.

1538
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:47,240
Speaker 3: You can cure conservative justices Ammy, Conny Barrett and Neil

1539
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:50,639
Speaker 3: Gorsich poking some serious holes in the government's case.

1540
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:54,320
Speaker 11: What does that mean for the breadth of this statue

1541
01:25:55,520 --> 01:26:00,000
Speaker 11: would to sit in that disrupts a trial for access

1542
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 11: to a federal courthouse qualify. Would a heckler in today's

1543
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:07,800
Speaker 11: audience qualify? Or at the State of the Union address,

1544
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:14,760
Speaker 11: would pulling a fire alarm before a vote qualify? For

1545
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:16,240
Speaker 11: twenty years in federal prison.

1546
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:20,120
Speaker 12: What if on January sixth, the capital itself had not

1547
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:24,120
Speaker 12: been breached, the protest is going on outside the capital,

1548
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 12: stop the steal, Stop the steal, police, or you know

1549
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:32,080
Speaker 12: in megaphone saying disperse, disperse, they're too close to the capital.

1550
01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:37,559
Speaker 12: Their goal is to impair, impede, stop the proceeding, stop

1551
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 12: the counting of votes. Does that violate the statute in

1552
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 12: your view? Under this impede language?

1553
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:47,000
Speaker 13: So, I think I think that one relevant question would

1554
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 13: be whether we could satisfy the nexus requirement and show

1555
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,759
Speaker 13: that actually the natural and probable effect of that conduct

1556
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:54,599
Speaker 13: would be to have some effect on what's going on

1557
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,639
Speaker 13: in the capital and in the myran you can yes.

1558
01:26:57,720 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 13: So if you're assuming that the same thing happened where

1559
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:02,120
Speaker 13: Congress to go into recess and couldn't hold the joint

1560
01:27:02,160 --> 01:27:04,320
Speaker 13: session after Ahill because there was such a security risk,

1561
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:06,960
Speaker 13: I think that that probably would be chargeable if we

1562
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:09,479
Speaker 13: had the intent evidence. Now, as I mentioned before, even

1563
01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:11,280
Speaker 13: with respect to the riot that happened, which was a

1564
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:13,960
Speaker 13: much more serious breach. We don't have that evidence of

1565
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 13: intent for everyone, but if we had, for example, organizers

1566
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 13: where it was absolutely clear that they were the ring

1567
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 13: leaders who had intended to obstruct and undertook the action

1568
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:25,919
Speaker 13: with that specific intent and did so knowing it was wrongful,

1569
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 13: and especially if they went you know, I'm assuming you're

1570
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:30,679
Speaker 13: saying they're in the unauthorized area right outside the capitol.

1571
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:34,280
Speaker 13: That is unlawful conduct committed with consciousness of wrongdoing, if

1572
01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:35,120
Speaker 13: we have the proof of it.

1573
01:27:35,479 --> 01:27:38,400
Speaker 12: Let's say that I am having a hard time seeing

1574
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:43,400
Speaker 12: accepting your limiting construction of the verbs obstruct, influencer impedes

1575
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:48,000
Speaker 12: to have this extra element. Tell me why I shouldn't

1576
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:51,280
Speaker 12: be concerned about the breadth of the government's reading just

1577
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 12: relying on corruptly and the nexus requirement. Should I be

1578
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 12: concerned or could you just embrace it and say, yeah,

1579
01:27:57,160 --> 01:28:00,240
Speaker 12: there might be some ads applied First Amendment challenges or

1580
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:03,080
Speaker 12: that sort of thing. I mean, can I be comfortable

1581
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:04,799
Speaker 12: with the breadth if that's what I think.

1582
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:05,519
Speaker 1: Yes, you can be.

1583
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:07,559
Speaker 13: You certainly don't have to agree with us that a

1584
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 13: deminimus hindrance wouldn't qualify. If you thought that this was

1585
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:13,520
Speaker 13: unqualified and swept broadly to any kind of hindrance whatsoever,

1586
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,320
Speaker 13: there would still be really important limits in the statute.

1587
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 3: Christ So can I say that Biden's solicitor general there

1588
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:24,760
Speaker 3: sounds very conservative. It actually reminds me of a lot

1589
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:31,840
Speaker 3: of conservative arguments about protests and speech in the past, because, Yeah,

1590
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 3: this idea that you should curve down on any sort

1591
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:41,840
Speaker 3: of public I guess, disobedience, anything like that, You can

1592
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:44,120
Speaker 3: just really easily see it kind of reminds me what

1593
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:46,840
Speaker 3: we're talking about in the campus speech block. It kind

1594
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:50,840
Speaker 3: of you can easily see how when you have interpretations

1595
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 3: like that, they can be applied wildly to just protests

1596
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:59,559
Speaker 3: in general, because in essence, every protest is trying to

1597
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 3: quote unquote obstruct maybe not a technical, narrow constitutional proceeding

1598
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:08,160
Speaker 3: as is in this case, but in a lot of

1599
01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:12,000
Speaker 3: cases they're trying to obstruct some type of proceeding. There

1600
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:15,599
Speaker 3: is some type of like legislative proceeding that they don't

1601
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:18,600
Speaker 3: want to happen. So you can see how language like

1602
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:23,840
Speaker 3: obstruct and proceeding being interpreted in this way could get

1603
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 3: really really out of control for you know, government sensors

1604
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 3: or would be government sensors and people who want to

1605
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 3: crack down on legitimate protest.

1606
01:29:33,280 --> 01:29:38,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, the languages obstruct, influence or impede, so influence, I mean,

1607
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 1: right exactly. I mean that's it really is written in

1608
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:47,120
Speaker 1: this very broad way that I think should make us uncomfortable.

1609
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:51,360
Speaker 1: And obviously we reference that this not only impacts the

1610
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:55,840
Speaker 1: I think hundreds of January sixth defendants who had this

1611
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 1: as one of the charges that was brought against them,

1612
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 1: but it does directly impact Donald Trump in terms of

1613
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,680
Speaker 1: the January sixth cases, Megan Kelly was pointing out. So

1614
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:08,200
Speaker 1: he was charged. Of course, he's got a whole wrapped

1615
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:10,960
Speaker 1: of charges that he's facing, including the hush money situation

1616
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:14,799
Speaker 1: that he's dealing with in court in Manhattan as we speak.

1617
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 1: He's got the Document's case, he's got the Georgia case.

1618
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 1: But in terms of the federal January sixth case, he

1619
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:26,519
Speaker 1: was charged with one count of conspiracy to defraud the

1620
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,559
Speaker 1: United States. That's about his efforts to spread false claims

1621
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 1: about November twenty twenty election, knowing they weren't true, tempting

1622
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 1: to illegally discount legitimate votes, all with the goal of

1623
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:40,960
Speaker 1: overturning the twenty twenty election. According to prosecutors, one count

1624
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, that's the one

1625
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:47,519
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, due to the alleged organized planning

1626
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:49,960
Speaker 1: by Trump and his allies to disrupt the electoral vote

1627
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:54,200
Speaker 1: certification in January twenty twenty one, another count of obstruction

1628
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 1: of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, which has

1629
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 1: to do specifically with those elections vacation efforts that we've

1630
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:06,160
Speaker 1: been talking about. And one count of conspiracy against rights

1631
01:31:06,479 --> 01:31:10,200
Speaker 1: referring to Trump and his co conspirators allegedly attempting to oppress,

1632
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:12,920
Speaker 1: thread and intimidate people in their right to vote in

1633
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 1: an election. So you've got four different counts that are

1634
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:19,880
Speaker 1: related to January sixth. So if the official preceding one

1635
01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:24,639
Speaker 1: is out the window, then you're left with two counts,

1636
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:29,879
Speaker 1: this conspiracy or fraud the US and this conspiracy against

1637
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:32,600
Speaker 1: rights that Jack Smith is left with in terms of

1638
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:36,560
Speaker 1: the January sixth case. So it is definitely quite consequential

1639
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:41,559
Speaker 1: in terms of Trump's legal jeopardy in that particular, in

1640
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:44,560
Speaker 1: that particular situation that he is in legal jeopardy.

1641
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:47,320
Speaker 3: From not to quote the Bachelor, But to quote the Bachelor,

1642
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 3: whether or not you believe that the conservative justices are

1643
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 3: in this for the right reasons, By the way, I

1644
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:54,599
Speaker 3: hate the Bachelor, but whether or not you think they're

1645
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:57,240
Speaker 3: in it for the right reasons, I actually hope that

1646
01:31:57,320 --> 01:31:59,919
Speaker 3: they push back on this and they really set precedent

1647
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:02,519
Speaker 3: to interpret this narrowly, because you couldn't. You know, it

1648
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:05,280
Speaker 3: already feels like we're sort of lurching ever closer to

1649
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:06,839
Speaker 3: banana republic territory.

1650
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:07,479
Speaker 4: Uh.

1651
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:13,120
Speaker 3: But you know, you can see how when Republicans, for example,

1652
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:18,920
Speaker 3: you know, just in Congress, when they started to push

1653
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 3: back on you know, for example, Nancy Pelosi wouldn't seat

1654
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:25,000
Speaker 3: the members that they wanted on the January sixth committee,

1655
01:32:25,120 --> 01:32:28,840
Speaker 3: or uh, you know, Republicans or Democrats you know, peached

1656
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:32,960
Speaker 3: Trump for his quote perfect phone call to Zelenski, and

1657
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 3: then Democrats went and or Republicans went and started to

1658
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 3: seriously talk about impeachment for Joe Biden doing this kind

1659
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 3: of escalating tit for tat. You can easily see actually

1660
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:44,519
Speaker 3: how Joe Biden. You know, you have a bunch of uh,

1661
01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:50,080
Speaker 3: liberal activists, progressive activists protesting something like the voting rights

1662
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 3: legislation in Georgia and Joe Biden, you know, giving the

1663
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:58,760
Speaker 3: saying something that you know aligns with them, trying to

1664
01:32:58,920 --> 01:33:00,800
Speaker 3: influence the official proceeding of.

1665
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:02,840
Speaker 4: The vote on that like you can like this can

1666
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:03,680
Speaker 4: just get blown up.

1667
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:09,640
Speaker 3: And you never underestimate the cynical tactics of people in

1668
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:15,040
Speaker 3: positions of power to wield statutes like this for immediate

1669
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:18,840
Speaker 3: political ends that do not serve the sort of best

1670
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:21,200
Speaker 3: interests of the country, that do not set long term

1671
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:23,320
Speaker 3: standards in the best interests of the country, and do

1672
01:33:23,400 --> 01:33:26,519
Speaker 3: not serve frankly, the constitution and the growth of office.

1673
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:30,679
Speaker 3: So never underestimate the cynicism of our elected officials, because

1674
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,639
Speaker 3: they will wield these things in ways that absolutely bring

1675
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:35,719
Speaker 3: us closer to the brink.

1676
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:39,479
Speaker 1: You want to Tom Cotton to a future president Tom

1677
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 1: Cotton or future president Donald Trump, or where you want

1678
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:44,640
Speaker 1: them to have the power to wield this, you know,

1679
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 1: to its fullest extent, not personally, not me. There was

1680
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:53,839
Speaker 1: one liberal argument though, that did land with me about

1681
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 1: Justice Thomas. I'm curious your thoughts on this. Emily can

1682
01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 1: put this one up on the screen. So this is

1683
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:02,839
Speaker 1: from Jeffrey. He says, in the most credible of sources

1684
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:05,880
Speaker 1: here anyway, put that aside in oral argument today, Justice

1685
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:09,639
Speaker 1: Thomas is minimizing the severity of the January sixth insurrection

1686
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 1: at the Capital. Perhaps that's because his wife was part

1687
01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 1: of the conspiracy. What a disgrace that he's sitting on

1688
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:17,360
Speaker 1: this case. I actually do think it's inappropriate for Thomas

1689
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:19,479
Speaker 1: to be involved in this case. His wife, as you

1690
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:22,280
Speaker 1: referenced earlier, Emily was involved in some of the organizing

1691
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:25,759
Speaker 1: for that day. There were a bunch of infamous, you know, tweets,

1692
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:29,320
Speaker 1: sorry texts between her and then Chief of Staff Mark

1693
01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 1: Meadows about the stop the Steal conspiracy in which she

1694
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:36,400
Speaker 1: was incredibly encouraging, et cetera. And so I do think

1695
01:34:36,479 --> 01:34:41,439
Speaker 1: that it's inappropriate that he's involved here. But and it

1696
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:43,920
Speaker 1: just speaks to you know, there's any number of cases

1697
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 1: that he and other justices, by the way, should have

1698
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:50,560
Speaker 1: recused themselves from if we're upholding a high standards of ethics,

1699
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:54,760
Speaker 1: where even the appearance of a conflict of interest should

1700
01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:58,120
Speaker 1: be enough for you to recuse yourself. But the Supreme

1701
01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:01,880
Speaker 1: Court doesn't have an official code of ethics, which is insane.

1702
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:05,040
Speaker 1: They're just left to like make their own decisions about

1703
01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:07,439
Speaker 1: whether they or not they feel conflicted and feel like

1704
01:35:07,479 --> 01:35:11,720
Speaker 1: they want to recuse, and so Justice Thomas doesn't ever

1705
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 1: feel like he needs to recuse himself, even from cases

1706
01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:17,160
Speaker 1: that in which he has a direct financial interest. That's

1707
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:19,160
Speaker 1: always also been an issue in the past.

1708
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:19,600
Speaker 4: You know.

1709
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this is interesting because I agree completely that

1710
01:35:22,680 --> 01:35:25,200
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court needs a code of ethics and that

1711
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:29,000
Speaker 3: conflicts like this are not are far from ideal. I

1712
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 3: do think that there's a good argument for being a

1713
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:34,639
Speaker 3: conflict of interest in this case. I think that's always

1714
01:35:34,720 --> 01:35:38,839
Speaker 3: been an issue for Clarence Thomas, and I don't think.

1715
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:39,920
Speaker 4: Again that's ideal.

1716
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 3: You know, I think it's unfortunate that Jenny Thomas wants

1717
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:45,720
Speaker 3: to be a conservative activist, and you know, like she

1718
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:46,599
Speaker 3: wants to do.

1719
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:48,800
Speaker 4: It for good reasons, like she really believes in the cause.

1720
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:52,000
Speaker 3: So I don't think it's ideal that it creates these

1721
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:54,320
Speaker 3: conflicts of interest, because you know, I feel for anybody

1722
01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:57,720
Speaker 3: that wants to be involved and advocate on behalf of

1723
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 3: ideas that they believe in really strongly. But you know,

1724
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:03,640
Speaker 3: that's been kind of the problem is that there is

1725
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:06,760
Speaker 3: no consistent code of ethics. So Clarence Thomas is like,

1726
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:10,400
Speaker 3: there's this big effort on the left, and you know

1727
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:13,040
Speaker 3: this would create this could blow up into a huge

1728
01:36:13,120 --> 01:36:14,720
Speaker 3: like we could spend a whole show on this. But

1729
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:17,360
Speaker 3: I from my perspective, I think there's been a decades

1730
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 3: long effort to discredit Clarence Thomas, specifically because he is

1731
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 3: a black sort of conservative jurist, and that he's gotten

1732
01:36:25,680 --> 01:36:28,600
Speaker 3: a lot of racism frankly because of all of that,

1733
01:36:28,840 --> 01:36:33,000
Speaker 3: and so that lack of consistency is what has allowed

1734
01:36:33,040 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 3: for I think some of these conflicts of interest to fester.

1735
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:36,719
Speaker 4: So I agree.

1736
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:40,200
Speaker 3: I think it's it's sort of a problematic conflict. But

1737
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:42,840
Speaker 3: I think, you know, we talk about it, not us,

1738
01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:45,040
Speaker 3: but I think the media talks about it specifically with

1739
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:47,519
Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas more than some other justices.

1740
01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:51,400
Speaker 4: But that doesn't make it right. So I ultimately kind

1741
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:51,840
Speaker 4: of agree.

1742
01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:55,400
Speaker 3: I don't think it's an ideal situation to have the

1743
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 3: different interests at hand here. I do want to mention

1744
01:36:59,040 --> 01:37:01,799
Speaker 3: Megan Kelly another Megan Kelly tweet, this time at Jeffrey

1745
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:04,599
Speaker 3: Tubin in response to that tweet you just read Crystal,

1746
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:07,760
Speaker 3: and Meghan said, Hi, Tubin, FYI you waived your right

1747
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 3: to use the term disgraced about other lawyers when you

1748
01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:12,040
Speaker 3: took your dick out of your pants and jerked off

1749
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:13,040
Speaker 3: in front of your colleagues.

1750
01:37:13,800 --> 01:37:14,840
Speaker 4: Not safe for work, folks.

1751
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:20,160
Speaker 1: Nice. Nice, But his point stands about Clarence Thomas. I mean,

1752
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 1: I listen, I am not going to dispute. There's been

1753
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:27,720
Speaker 1: plenty of racism, you know, directed towards him, especially with

1754
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:31,519
Speaker 1: regards to He infamously doesn't really usually chime up during

1755
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 1: oral arguments, and this was sort of used to smear

1756
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:38,920
Speaker 1: him as unintelligent. If you read about his actual philosophy,

1757
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:42,240
Speaker 1: I mean, he's this weird sort of like almost like

1758
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 1: right wing black Nationally, he's very cynical about racial politics.

1759
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: It's once I, you know, really learned about his ideology

1760
01:37:50,320 --> 01:37:53,640
Speaker 1: is actually a little different than what I thought he is.

1761
01:37:53,840 --> 01:37:58,920
Speaker 1: Probably he is just as cynical about the possibility of

1762
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:02,360
Speaker 1: sort of racial co existence and reconciliation as like a

1763
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:05,040
Speaker 1: Nicole Hannah Jones. I mean they actually share. There's a

1764
01:38:05,080 --> 01:38:10,000
Speaker 1: weird horseshoe there in terms of racial pessimism. We'll put

1765
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:14,160
Speaker 1: that ideology aside for another day. But I think part

1766
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:18,919
Speaker 1: of that cynicism from him is his willingness to accept

1767
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 1: like these large monetary gifts and monetary assistance and you know,

1768
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:28,439
Speaker 1: the trips and the helping to pay for the r

1769
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:31,799
Speaker 1: V and his mother's house and all of these things,

1770
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:36,519
Speaker 1: because first of all, that is completely corrupt, and he

1771
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:39,479
Speaker 1: is an outlier in terms of how much he appears

1772
01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:42,280
Speaker 1: to have accepted these types of gifts. Not that he's

1773
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:45,920
Speaker 1: the only one who's done it, but the frequency, the amounts,

1774
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:49,760
Speaker 1: the unwillingness to disclose, etc. I do think is at

1775
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 1: another level with Clarence Thomas. So in that way, the

1776
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:57,479
Speaker 1: additional scrutiny of him is very justified, and I think

1777
01:38:57,520 --> 01:39:00,720
Speaker 1: it comes from this deeply cynical place of his view

1778
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:04,360
Speaker 1: of politics, which is like, yeah, rich people have their way.

1779
01:39:04,840 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 1: It's a corrupt system, and I'm part of that corrupt system.

1780
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:12,479
Speaker 3: He also has this sort of uniquely inspiring story that

1781
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:18,160
Speaker 3: I think has been has made him more attractive as

1782
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:21,559
Speaker 3: sort of a compatriot to that donor class, you know,

1783
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:23,840
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, the sort of like billionaire

1784
01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:27,360
Speaker 3: donor class that has all of these massive charities that

1785
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 3: they you know, he's used the Supreme Court to have ceremonies.

1786
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:34,240
Speaker 3: I think he's just sort of especially attractive for them

1787
01:39:34,280 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 3: because he grew up like speaking Gulla dialect and like

1788
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:39,800
Speaker 3: the most rural place that you could imagine in the

1789
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:42,840
Speaker 3: United States and had this like weird like you said,

1790
01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 3: he was basically in college, he was basically like a

1791
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,919
Speaker 3: left wing black nationalist and then had this interesting evolution.

1792
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:51,040
Speaker 3: There's a good documentary called Clarence Thomas Created Equal that

1793
01:39:51,080 --> 01:39:52,800
Speaker 3: was done by people who are favorable to Thomas, but

1794
01:39:52,840 --> 01:39:55,040
Speaker 3: it's still just him kind of telling his life story,

1795
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:57,080
Speaker 3: and you get a different glimpse than.

1796
01:39:57,120 --> 01:39:58,240
Speaker 4: What the media tells you.

1797
01:39:58,280 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 3: But I think basically the bottom line, Chris, is that

1798
01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:04,879
Speaker 3: we agree the Supreme Court has a big ethics problem

1799
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:08,040
Speaker 3: on its hand, because you know, when you have in

1800
01:40:08,080 --> 01:40:10,840
Speaker 3: your family these interests or personally these interests. I think

1801
01:40:10,840 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 3: with Ruspader Ginsburg it was like different things with the

1802
01:40:12,720 --> 01:40:15,519
Speaker 3: ACLU and different kind of like left wing groups that

1803
01:40:16,400 --> 01:40:19,840
Speaker 3: found her story to be frankly very inspiring and her

1804
01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:25,320
Speaker 3: evolution as a jurist to be inspiring. It does it's

1805
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:27,919
Speaker 3: impossible to see how that wouldn't weigh on their minds

1806
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:30,800
Speaker 3: or be something that you know, is present in their

1807
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:32,479
Speaker 3: minds as they're thinking about these cases.

1808
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt about it. All right, Let's talk about

1809
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:38,120
Speaker 1: some more legal action here. This incredibly significant. Put this

1810
01:40:38,200 --> 01:40:42,120
Speaker 1: up on the screen from Axio's Department of Justice planning

1811
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 1: to sue Ticketmaster parent Live Nation. So there was a

1812
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 1: Ticketmaster Live Nation merger acquisition back in the Obama era

1813
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:54,120
Speaker 1: that made them this giant in terms of the live

1814
01:40:54,200 --> 01:40:57,640
Speaker 1: music and live arts industry. So the dog planning to

1815
01:40:57,680 --> 01:41:00,960
Speaker 1: sue them for anti trust violations. We don't have a

1816
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:03,639
Speaker 1: lot of details about what the specifics of that case

1817
01:41:03,680 --> 01:41:05,840
Speaker 1: are going to be, as it has not come to

1818
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 1: light yet, but just as a reminder about the history here,

1819
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:15,600
Speaker 1: So back in twenty ten, Live Nation acquires Ticketmaster, the

1820
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:21,280
Speaker 1: Obama DOJ Anti Trust Division does very little about it,

1821
01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, even though some of the concerns which would

1822
01:41:23,880 --> 01:41:27,479
Speaker 1: later become manifest were already quite predictable at that point.

1823
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 1: But you know, there were decades in which Democrats and

1824
01:41:31,040 --> 01:41:36,880
Speaker 1: Republicans joined together to basically stop enforcing anti trust violations.

1825
01:41:36,880 --> 01:41:39,439
Speaker 1: This was Reagan, this was you know, first Bush, this

1826
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:42,160
Speaker 1: was Clinton, this was second Bush, this was Obama, all

1827
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:46,599
Speaker 1: of them very similar approach, and the Biden DOJ has

1828
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:50,640
Speaker 1: taken a markedly more aggressive and I would say a

1829
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:53,160
Speaker 1: return to you know, more true application of the law

1830
01:41:53,439 --> 01:41:57,599
Speaker 1: when it comes to anti trust. This article reminds that

1831
01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:01,519
Speaker 1: there was a ten year consent decree when they were

1832
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:06,320
Speaker 1: allowed to acquire Ticketmaster in twenty ten, which was meant

1833
01:42:06,320 --> 01:42:09,280
Speaker 1: to keep them from abusing their market dominance, like to

1834
01:42:09,360 --> 01:42:13,719
Speaker 1: punish artists that don't use their services, etc. To punish

1835
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:17,160
Speaker 1: venues that don't want to partner with them for ticket sales.

1836
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:20,519
Speaker 1: That consent decree has really not been enforced, which is

1837
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:23,439
Speaker 1: pretty typical, which is why it's more important to block

1838
01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:25,720
Speaker 1: these things to begin with, because the enforcement after the

1839
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:28,519
Speaker 1: fact is very, very difficult. And they go on to

1840
01:42:28,520 --> 01:42:32,080
Speaker 1: say artists have long spoken out about Ticketmaster's practices, but

1841
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:35,639
Speaker 1: those murmurs turned into rallying cries after Ticketmaster's site crashed

1842
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:38,120
Speaker 1: for thousands of Tailor Swift fans in twenty twenty two.

1843
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:42,719
Speaker 1: So we also have ilhan Omar celebrating this action, calling

1844
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:44,240
Speaker 1: for them to be broken up. We can put this

1845
01:42:44,600 --> 01:42:47,600
Speaker 1: up on the screen. We also have She says, let's go,

1846
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:49,080
Speaker 1: I've said it before and I'll say it again, break

1847
01:42:49,120 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: up Ticketmaster in Live Nation. You've got more perfect union

1848
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 1: talking a little bit more about this suit and that

1849
01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:58,400
Speaker 1: they're being accused of running an illegal monopoly over the

1850
01:42:58,400 --> 01:43:01,200
Speaker 1: ticketing industry. The corporate monopoly charges too much for tickets,

1851
01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:06,680
Speaker 1: exploits venues, hurts fans and artists so effectively, Emily, what

1852
01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:12,080
Speaker 1: you have is this industry giant that as someone who's

1853
01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:15,120
Speaker 1: put on these you know, little live performances can attest to,

1854
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:20,439
Speaker 1: they give you no other choice. They can charge whatever

1855
01:43:20,479 --> 01:43:23,639
Speaker 1: they want. Not only do they control the ticket sales,

1856
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:26,800
Speaker 1: but then through Live Nation, they control you know, the

1857
01:43:27,280 --> 01:43:31,280
Speaker 1: concert promotion. They can in fact, you know, punished venues,

1858
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:33,800
Speaker 1: punish artists who don't want to work with them. They

1859
01:43:33,880 --> 01:43:38,960
Speaker 1: also own the ticket resale platforms. So not only was

1860
01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 1: a fee charge on the front end to ticket Master

1861
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:45,200
Speaker 1: when the tickets initially purchased, but then if it's resold

1862
01:43:45,680 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 1: and there's indications they encourage people who are reselling to

1863
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:51,719
Speaker 1: you know, really gouge the final consumer. When it's resold,

1864
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:54,840
Speaker 1: they get another fee on top of the one that

1865
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:58,679
Speaker 1: you that was already paid in for this ticket. So

1866
01:43:58,720 --> 01:44:02,320
Speaker 1: they really have control over a bunch of pieces of

1867
01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:07,800
Speaker 1: this ecosystem and have weaponized it against everyone who is

1868
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:11,240
Speaker 1: a consumer of music or the artists, the fans, the venues,

1869
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:14,320
Speaker 1: et cetera in a way that I think is very

1870
01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:17,599
Speaker 1: clearly abusive, and some of this has really been hidden.

1871
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:21,160
Speaker 1: I want to get your reaction. And then Matt Stoller,

1872
01:44:21,360 --> 01:44:24,960
Speaker 1: our great partners, who's you know, anti trust expert. He

1873
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 1: also did a breakdown of some of the specifics of

1874
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:31,760
Speaker 1: the way that they have been cooking the books to

1875
01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:34,720
Speaker 1: try to avoid the very clear implications of the way

1876
01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 1: that they're overcharging people. But first, your reaction to this,

1877
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 1: you know, this new action that is being reported by

1878
01:44:40,120 --> 01:44:40,559
Speaker 1: the DJ.

1879
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:43,439
Speaker 3: Well, first, I think it's really important to see like

1880
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:46,760
Speaker 3: ilhan Omar more perfect Union. They're right, They've been on

1881
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:49,000
Speaker 3: top of this case for a really long time, and

1882
01:44:49,200 --> 01:44:51,640
Speaker 3: it's unfortunate I think that the right hasn't picked up

1883
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:54,839
Speaker 3: on what a populist cause this is, and actually, frankly,

1884
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:57,000
Speaker 3: what a free market cause this is because there is

1885
01:44:57,000 --> 01:44:59,200
Speaker 3: no competition. And that's one thing I wanted to toss

1886
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:02,280
Speaker 3: back to you, Crystal, because you guys, when you've you've

1887
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:05,040
Speaker 3: gone out into different cities all over the country and

1888
01:45:05,479 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 3: hosted these events, the ability to find competition to Ticketmaster

1889
01:45:10,200 --> 01:45:13,160
Speaker 3: first of all, to like how Ticketmaster wields its power

1890
01:45:13,479 --> 01:45:16,120
Speaker 3: as a virtual monopoly is one thing, but then also

1891
01:45:16,320 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 3: if you want to find some way to bypass Ticketmaster,

1892
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:23,200
Speaker 3: it is virtually impossible.

1893
01:45:23,320 --> 01:45:24,559
Speaker 4: I mean, there are some ways that.

1894
01:45:24,479 --> 01:45:27,120
Speaker 3: Some people can do it, but in your experience, I

1895
01:45:27,120 --> 01:45:30,240
Speaker 3: remember talking to you guys about this, is like impossible

1896
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 3: to have an event, a major event with without Ticketmaster,

1897
01:45:35,439 --> 01:45:36,520
Speaker 3: or even with Ticketmaster.

1898
01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:40,160
Speaker 1: They make it so hard to Yeah, so basically you

1899
01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:43,360
Speaker 1: have to be in order to avoid using Ticketmaster, you

1900
01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:47,000
Speaker 1: have to be really big to start with and basically

1901
01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:50,280
Speaker 1: be able to do your own sort of like ticket sales.

1902
01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:53,040
Speaker 1: But that's not it. Then you also have to have

1903
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:55,960
Speaker 1: a venue that's willing to work with you when you

1904
01:45:56,040 --> 01:46:01,599
Speaker 1: are going around Ticketmaster knowing that they then because they

1905
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: also own Live Nation, and say, okay, you want to

1906
01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:08,880
Speaker 1: have you know, crystalin Sager, that's fine. Guess what next

1907
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:12,560
Speaker 1: time Ariana Grande's coming to town. Nothing, we're playing same venues.

1908
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:16,840
Speaker 4: As first Saga or I have both.

1909
01:46:17,439 --> 01:46:18,280
Speaker 1: What's your choice?

1910
01:46:18,439 --> 01:46:18,639
Speaker 14: Right?

1911
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:21,559
Speaker 1: So yeah, so they can put pressure. Okay, well, these

1912
01:46:21,680 --> 01:46:25,800
Speaker 1: other comedians, artists, act whoever that's going to come through

1913
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:28,280
Speaker 1: your town, they're going to go to a different venue

1914
01:46:28,320 --> 01:46:31,000
Speaker 1: because we're going to put them there. So that's the

1915
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:33,320
Speaker 1: sort of buying that they put people in. There was

1916
01:46:33,320 --> 01:46:36,879
Speaker 1: a case recently in New Jersey for two Stoller's explainer

1917
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:38,800
Speaker 1: that he did, which was excellent, and we should go

1918
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:41,439
Speaker 1: check out the whole thing because I can't possibly do

1919
01:46:41,479 --> 01:46:44,400
Speaker 1: a justice. But there was some discovery in this case

1920
01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:48,400
Speaker 1: that was very interesting because effectively, you had some sort

1921
01:46:48,400 --> 01:46:50,479
Speaker 1: of a festival that wanted to you know, local New

1922
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:52,720
Speaker 1: Jersey festival. They wanted to hire, they wanted to put

1923
01:46:52,720 --> 01:46:56,880
Speaker 1: on a music show. They hired these established concert promoters

1924
01:46:57,240 --> 01:47:00,240
Speaker 1: to you know, do that work for them. And ticket

1925
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:02,360
Speaker 1: Master just basically came in like a bully over the

1926
01:47:02,360 --> 01:47:04,200
Speaker 1: top and was like, no, no, no, you're going to

1927
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:06,720
Speaker 1: have to deal with us. So that was number one,

1928
01:47:07,680 --> 01:47:12,200
Speaker 1: number two. And this gets to the argument that Ticketmaster

1929
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:15,880
Speaker 1: makes about how no, no, we're not gouging, we're not exploiting.

1930
01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:19,559
Speaker 1: They claim they actually, we really don't make that much,

1931
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:22,000
Speaker 1: but we don't charge that much money on the tickets.

1932
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 1: We don't make that much money. Here's our books. Look

1933
01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:28,280
Speaker 1: at this money that we're losing in terms of tickets. Okay,

1934
01:47:28,320 --> 01:47:29,559
Speaker 1: well you look at that. Well, I guess it's not

1935
01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:32,600
Speaker 1: a monopoly if they're not charging these monopoly fees. But

1936
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:36,240
Speaker 1: what comes out in this case is that what they

1937
01:47:36,240 --> 01:47:39,800
Speaker 1: would do is they would contract with these different vendors

1938
01:47:40,120 --> 01:47:43,840
Speaker 1: with regards to this concert, and they would have these

1939
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 1: secret deals where okay, Ticketmaster and the local concert promoter,

1940
01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:51,479
Speaker 1: they're going to equally share the cost seems even steven

1941
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,000
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty, et cetera. But they would have these

1942
01:47:54,040 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 1: secret deals with the vendors where they wanted the vendors

1943
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:01,880
Speaker 1: to overcharge on the front end, but then give a

1944
01:48:02,000 --> 01:48:06,840
Speaker 1: secret rebate just to Ticketmaster on the back end that

1945
01:48:06,920 --> 01:48:09,760
Speaker 1: the artists, the venue, and the concert promoter had no

1946
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:13,080
Speaker 1: idea about. And they actually went so far as to

1947
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:17,720
Speaker 1: keep two sets of books, one that showed this purported

1948
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:20,280
Speaker 1: loss on oh see, we're not even making that much

1949
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:23,640
Speaker 1: money in this industry, and the other one that reflected

1950
01:48:24,120 --> 01:48:28,040
Speaker 1: these secret deals that they were making with vendors, which

1951
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:33,120
Speaker 1: were hugely profitable, you know, throughout the entire country, the

1952
01:48:33,160 --> 01:48:36,599
Speaker 1: tune of hundreds of millions, potentially billions of dollars. That's

1953
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:39,280
Speaker 1: one of the things that maybe will come out in discovery.

1954
01:48:39,439 --> 01:48:41,839
Speaker 1: Let's listen to a little bit of how that Stoler

1955
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 1: described this approach.

1956
01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:47,120
Speaker 14: Live Nation negotiated third party expenses like rental custom with

1957
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:50,280
Speaker 14: the venues directly with vendors in exchange for exclusive financial

1958
01:48:50,320 --> 01:48:53,759
Speaker 14: gains not disclosed to their artists or their agents, managers

1959
01:48:53,840 --> 01:48:57,519
Speaker 14: or independent coke promoters in the form of rebates. So,

1960
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:01,519
Speaker 14: in other words, Live Nation had seek side deals with

1961
01:49:01,680 --> 01:49:06,160
Speaker 14: vendors to inflate costs by overpaying those vendors and venues,

1962
01:49:06,520 --> 01:49:08,919
Speaker 14: which meant that any profit from the event would evaporate.

1963
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:10,040
Speaker 15: It would look like a loss.

1964
01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:13,880
Speaker 14: Co promoters and artists who share in profits would lose out,

1965
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:17,080
Speaker 14: but and would be told that the show just wasn't profitable.

1966
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:20,040
Speaker 14: But the thing is those vendors those venues who had

1967
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:23,200
Speaker 14: gotten extra money by being paid inflated costs would in

1968
01:49:23,240 --> 01:49:26,760
Speaker 14: turn remit that money back to Live Nation in the

1969
01:49:26,760 --> 01:49:29,960
Speaker 14: form of secret rebates. In other words, juice would pay

1970
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:32,720
Speaker 14: the inflated costs that would get furtively funneled back to

1971
01:49:32,800 --> 01:49:35,360
Speaker 14: Live Nation along with all the profits from the show.

1972
01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:38,280
Speaker 15: At Live Nation kept two sets of books.

1973
01:49:38,080 --> 01:49:40,599
Speaker 14: So in one case they posted an entry of ninety

1974
01:49:40,640 --> 01:49:44,040
Speaker 14: thousand dollars rent for settlement, but only seventy five thousand

1975
01:49:44,080 --> 01:49:47,120
Speaker 14: dollars internally for the same item. They routinely put in

1976
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:52,000
Speaker 14: profit and loss statements large losses while admitting that events

1977
01:49:52,160 --> 01:49:53,360
Speaker 14: actually made money.

1978
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:57,040
Speaker 1: So there you go, and Juice being the concert promotion

1979
01:49:57,320 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 1: promoters who were originally hired and so having these secret

1980
01:50:01,439 --> 01:50:04,120
Speaker 1: deals on the front end, Juice is getting charged these

1981
01:50:04,160 --> 01:50:07,360
Speaker 1: exorbitant prices and then that's just getting funneled back to

1982
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:12,480
Speaker 1: Ticketmaster's last Live Nation in the form of these secret rebates.

1983
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:15,200
Speaker 1: It's also funny, Emily he talks to the piece about

1984
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:18,160
Speaker 1: how we came to know this because they actually got

1985
01:50:18,160 --> 01:50:20,960
Speaker 1: their way of keeping these documents that were revealed through

1986
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:23,960
Speaker 1: discovery secret. The court ruled like, okay, yeah, you can

1987
01:50:24,040 --> 01:50:28,040
Speaker 1: keep the stuff secret, and then Live Nation accidentally posted

1988
01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:31,640
Speaker 1: it online themselves so that we could all know what

1989
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:35,360
Speaker 1: they're up to. And again it will be very revealing,

1990
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:39,080
Speaker 1: I think, to have more of these accounting practices and

1991
01:50:39,160 --> 01:50:43,200
Speaker 1: tricks that they use to wield their monopoly power revealed

1992
01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:43,799
Speaker 1: to the public.

1993
01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:47,400
Speaker 3: And you know again, they're also spending around a million

1994
01:50:47,479 --> 01:50:49,679
Speaker 3: dollars on lobbying just in the last couple of years.

1995
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:51,720
Speaker 3: I think they're up to one point seven million in

1996
01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:54,960
Speaker 3: the current election. According to the Guardian. It's a lot

1997
01:50:54,960 --> 01:50:57,600
Speaker 3: of money on lobbying. It's not you know, compared to

1998
01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 3: other industries or other companies. You know, they're people who

1999
01:51:00,439 --> 01:51:02,920
Speaker 3: spend more, but it's an increase, and there's a reason

2000
01:51:02,960 --> 01:51:05,800
Speaker 3: it's an increase. So to that question of competition in

2001
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:09,200
Speaker 3: the marketplace, to your point, Crystal, if you are a

2002
01:51:09,320 --> 01:51:14,680
Speaker 3: small intended competitor, want to be competitor to help the

2003
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:18,280
Speaker 3: state of quote consumer welfare, to borrow the phrase from

2004
01:51:18,360 --> 01:51:22,160
Speaker 3: Robert Bork and that sort of standard that people, you know,

2005
01:51:22,200 --> 01:51:24,599
Speaker 3: whether it was during the Obama administration or the Bush

2006
01:51:24,640 --> 01:51:29,320
Speaker 3: administrations or even right now, who defend this. If you

2007
01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:32,479
Speaker 3: want to bring consumers a better state of welfare, if

2008
01:51:32,479 --> 01:51:35,080
Speaker 3: you want to help bring prices down, and you're a competitor,

2009
01:51:35,560 --> 01:51:39,840
Speaker 3: not only is the bar already so high because Ticketmaster

2010
01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:43,320
Speaker 3: Live Nation, they're all established, but they're also then spending

2011
01:51:43,400 --> 01:51:46,880
Speaker 3: more than a million dollars lobbying to keep themselves that way.

2012
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:50,960
Speaker 3: So the barrier to entry for a competitor is it's

2013
01:51:51,080 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 3: like almost impossible, and there is no consumer welfare here, which,

2014
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:58,640
Speaker 3: as Lina Kahn said, you know, the Taylor Swift Ticketmaster

2015
01:51:58,720 --> 01:52:01,600
Speaker 3: thing that you guys covered so well turned gen Z,

2016
01:52:02,080 --> 01:52:04,559
Speaker 3: like tons of gen Z people into monopolists, so anti

2017
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:07,040
Speaker 3: monopolists overnight. I think it is the quote from Lena

2018
01:52:07,120 --> 01:52:11,240
Speaker 3: Khan at the time, and again that's because the consumer

2019
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:15,680
Speaker 3: welfare is harmed by this particular situation, and you just

2020
01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:17,760
Speaker 3: hear no conservatives talking about it, even though it was

2021
01:52:17,800 --> 01:52:21,320
Speaker 3: something that happened under the Obama administration and Chuck Schumer

2022
01:52:21,400 --> 01:52:23,839
Speaker 3: was like against it at the time, but it happened

2023
01:52:24,160 --> 01:52:27,200
Speaker 3: under Barack Obama, and it is harming consumers, and it

2024
01:52:27,320 --> 01:52:32,040
Speaker 3: is the most anti free market conduct unless you are

2025
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:36,720
Speaker 3: a full iron rand like let everyone just be monopolists

2026
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:39,720
Speaker 3: and monopolies are good. Unless you're sort of on the

2027
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:44,160
Speaker 3: libertarian fringe. This is not a competitive marketplace anymore. It's

2028
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:47,840
Speaker 3: a classic case of anti competitive behavior, and there's just

2029
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:50,360
Speaker 3: so little Republican concern about it, despite the fact that

2030
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:52,080
Speaker 3: it's clearly a populist cause.

2031
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 1: This is one of the areas where I have to

2032
01:52:55,439 --> 01:52:58,840
Speaker 1: genuinely give kudos the Biden administration. They have broken with,

2033
01:52:59,040 --> 01:53:02,880
Speaker 1: you know, the Obama neoliberal approach in this, and they

2034
01:53:02,920 --> 01:53:06,960
Speaker 1: also have been significantly better, not perfect, but better in

2035
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:08,920
Speaker 1: terms of labor rights. Those are to me to the

2036
01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:12,200
Speaker 1: two strongest areas and where they have the two sort

2037
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:16,760
Speaker 1: of strongest teams of personnel acting, and it is consequential.

2038
01:53:16,840 --> 01:53:19,599
Speaker 1: It's also the reason why like the Wall Street journal

2039
01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:26,280
Speaker 1: man they hate Lena Khan, they hate this new antitrust enforcement.

2040
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:31,080
Speaker 1: It's why you see, you know, even liberal Wall Street

2041
01:53:31,120 --> 01:53:34,040
Speaker 1: figures like Jamie Diamond being like, yeah, maybe they aren't

2042
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:37,160
Speaker 1: so bad with Trump, like maybe he was okay. Because

2043
01:53:37,160 --> 01:53:39,080
Speaker 1: you also have to remember a lot of sort of

2044
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:43,400
Speaker 1: like rank and file Wall streeters, their bonuses come from

2045
01:53:43,760 --> 01:53:47,839
Speaker 1: these big merger and acquisition deals. So to the extent

2046
01:53:47,920 --> 01:53:51,240
Speaker 1: that the Biden administration and they have significantly has sort

2047
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:54,760
Speaker 1: of like put a freeze on those deals happening, they're

2048
01:53:54,760 --> 01:53:56,920
Speaker 1: all waiting it out and hoping Trump comes back and

2049
01:53:56,920 --> 01:54:00,559
Speaker 1: there's less scrutiny over their actions. That has really put

2050
01:54:00,600 --> 01:54:04,040
Speaker 1: a hit on the wallets of a lot of denizens

2051
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:08,040
Speaker 1: of Wall Street. And so there's a real CNBC Wall

2052
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:10,920
Speaker 1: Street journal hatred of Lena Khan Jonathan Canter in this

2053
01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:13,599
Speaker 1: whole direction of the Biden administration. But if you are

2054
01:54:13,600 --> 01:54:15,920
Speaker 1: not a Wall Street denizen, if you are an ordinary

2055
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:17,880
Speaker 1: person out there who would like to go see a

2056
01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:21,080
Speaker 1: concert or comedian or whatever it is that you're into

2057
01:54:21,560 --> 01:54:25,160
Speaker 1: and not be completely gouged at every turn. You should

2058
01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:26,519
Speaker 1: be very pleased with this lawsuit.

2059
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:30,360
Speaker 3: But there's nobody for the most part representing your interests

2060
01:54:30,360 --> 01:54:32,760
Speaker 3: in Washington because who has the money to spend on

2061
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:36,200
Speaker 3: that kind of lobbying. Well, Wall Street does, and the

2062
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:38,840
Speaker 3: people who oppose Ticketmaster really don't.

2063
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:41,040
Speaker 4: So I think that's just an important point, Crystal.

2064
01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:42,840
Speaker 3: The Wall Street Journal has written like one hundred op

2065
01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:45,920
Speaker 3: eds against Lena Khan. If you talk to people in

2066
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:48,560
Speaker 3: that sort of world, the sheer hatred.

2067
01:54:48,320 --> 01:54:51,000
Speaker 1: Of Lea Khan is genuinely unhinged.

2068
01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:53,840
Speaker 4: It unhinged, unhinged.

2069
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:55,640
Speaker 3: But it's because of what you said. The stakes for

2070
01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:58,440
Speaker 3: them are so high. There's so much on the line

2071
01:54:58,680 --> 01:55:01,840
Speaker 3: with these murders and acquisition. So you know, we'll see,

2072
01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:03,880
Speaker 3: we'll see if any Republicans take up the ticket Master

2073
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:06,440
Speaker 3: cause at some point, even ones that have been good,

2074
01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:09,160
Speaker 3: because there's this question of antie, there's a question of

2075
01:55:09,200 --> 01:55:10,680
Speaker 3: big tech. You know, Ryan and I have said for

2076
01:55:10,680 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 3: the last couple of months, one of the questions in

2077
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:15,400
Speaker 3: our interview with Ted Cruz, we ended up talking so

2078
01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:17,960
Speaker 3: much about Israel. We wanted to ask him actually about

2079
01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:19,920
Speaker 3: he wrote a whole book that he was here to

2080
01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:22,480
Speaker 3: promote about big Tech and how big tech is too

2081
01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:26,520
Speaker 3: big and it is anti competitive, but he's super postedly

2082
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:29,360
Speaker 3: to con So it's a genuine dilemma I think for

2083
01:55:29,400 --> 01:55:31,440
Speaker 3: a lot of conservatives, kind of like the speech questions

2084
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:33,320
Speaker 3: we were talking about earlier, Crystal.

2085
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:35,800
Speaker 1: Very true. Yeah, it all is filtered through a partisan

2086
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:37,560
Speaker 1: lens versus a principal lens.

2087
01:55:39,760 --> 01:55:43,200
Speaker 3: Well, speaking of new alliances in the culture war, let's

2088
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:48,120
Speaker 3: move on to this Bill Maher clip, Crystal. Bill Maher

2089
01:55:48,160 --> 01:55:51,760
Speaker 3: had Katie kirk on Club Random this Sunday and they

2090
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:54,440
Speaker 3: got into a debate about the media. Bill Maher has

2091
01:55:54,480 --> 01:55:59,560
Speaker 3: sort of joined the conservative critiques of CNN and another

2092
01:55:59,680 --> 01:56:02,520
Speaker 3: kind of corporate media outlets that I think both of

2093
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:05,560
Speaker 3: us in a lot of cases would agree with their

2094
01:56:05,680 --> 01:56:08,800
Speaker 3: their their bias in different directions. And there are a

2095
01:56:08,880 --> 01:56:11,280
Speaker 3: lot of cases selection bias, what they choose to talk

2096
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:14,320
Speaker 3: about versus what they don't choose to talk about, and

2097
01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:17,480
Speaker 3: all of that good stuff. But it was an interesting conversation.

2098
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:20,480
Speaker 3: So let's roll this clip of Bill Maher and Katie

2099
01:56:20,520 --> 01:56:22,200
Speaker 3: Kuric on Club Random this Sunday.

2100
01:56:22,320 --> 01:56:24,760
Speaker 16: Okay, remember the town hall he had on CNN about

2101
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:28,600
Speaker 16: six months ago and the audience loved it. The audience

2102
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:30,000
Speaker 16: loved it. I mean, you can't.

2103
01:56:30,040 --> 01:56:30,800
Speaker 1: You can hate it.

2104
01:56:30,880 --> 01:56:32,560
Speaker 15: It stacked with Trump's supporters.

2105
01:56:32,680 --> 01:56:37,480
Speaker 16: Well they said Republicans and independents, that's what they said. Okay,

2106
01:56:37,600 --> 01:56:40,280
Speaker 16: maybe it was. How did they get in? If they did,

2107
01:56:40,400 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 16: that's on CNN.

2108
01:56:41,680 --> 01:56:44,360
Speaker 15: Yeah, I agree, I think it is on n and

2109
01:56:44,440 --> 01:56:45,320
Speaker 15: the vetting process.

2110
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:48,480
Speaker 16: Well, then you've got to get a better audience person obviously.

2111
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:49,800
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2112
01:56:50,160 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 16: Yeah, it's like the person who handed the gun to

2113
01:56:53,280 --> 01:56:57,400
Speaker 16: Alec Baldwin. Yeah, you know, you got to get good

2114
01:56:57,440 --> 01:56:58,720
Speaker 16: people in all these positions.

2115
01:56:58,800 --> 01:56:59,280
Speaker 15: I agree.

2116
01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:02,080
Speaker 16: Okay, So if that was about whatever, if in if

2117
01:57:02,080 --> 01:57:05,400
Speaker 16: it was, here's what happened. Here's what people saw in America.

2118
01:57:05,680 --> 01:57:09,080
Speaker 16: They saw Trump killing it, killing it with the crowd.

2119
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:12,800
Speaker 16: Then you come to a panel of six people who

2120
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:15,480
Speaker 16: all just do nothing but dump on him and call

2121
01:57:15,560 --> 01:57:20,000
Speaker 16: him a liar. And America goes, oh, didn't you just

2122
01:57:20,040 --> 01:57:22,640
Speaker 16: see that? We like him?

2123
01:57:22,960 --> 01:57:26,080
Speaker 15: And now a stand up comedian, what he's killing it?

2124
01:57:26,080 --> 01:57:27,800
Speaker 15: He's not a stand up comedian.

2125
01:57:27,600 --> 01:57:32,080
Speaker 16: But popularity, it doesn't matter. The people loved him and

2126
01:57:32,120 --> 01:57:33,920
Speaker 16: what he was saying. And then you cut to a

2127
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:39,000
Speaker 16: panel of six no it alls in Washington who just

2128
01:57:39,080 --> 01:57:42,200
Speaker 16: do nothing but talk about the native and like, I'm

2129
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:44,200
Speaker 16: all in on the negative. No one's bit harder on

2130
01:57:44,240 --> 01:57:46,440
Speaker 16: Trump than me, but I get it and I'm bored

2131
01:57:46,480 --> 01:57:49,040
Speaker 16: with it. And there's a different way to do this,

2132
01:57:49,240 --> 01:57:54,480
Speaker 16: I think is not to defend Trump, but to defend

2133
01:57:54,560 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 16: the people who still vote for him, because what they

2134
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:01,640
Speaker 16: see on the other side side to them is even

2135
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:05,480
Speaker 16: more dangerous because it's very closer to home. My kid

2136
01:58:05,560 --> 01:58:08,160
Speaker 16: is coming home from school and he thinks he's a racist.

2137
01:58:08,840 --> 01:58:11,280
Speaker 16: He's five. What have you been telling him? You know,

2138
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:16,400
Speaker 16: my son thinks maybe he's not a boy, and maybe

2139
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:20,640
Speaker 16: that's true. That happens, but you know, those kind of

2140
01:58:20,680 --> 01:58:25,240
Speaker 16: things are what they say. That's why I'm voting for Trump.

2141
01:58:26,560 --> 01:58:29,080
Speaker 15: Backlash, the pendulum swinging.

2142
01:58:29,160 --> 01:58:31,160
Speaker 16: The conservative guy one said to me, what you don't

2143
01:58:31,160 --> 01:58:33,880
Speaker 16: get about Trump is we don't like him either. Now

2144
01:58:33,960 --> 01:58:35,640
Speaker 16: that's not true for all people. There are people who

2145
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:39,200
Speaker 16: just love his dirty draws and they are dirty. But

2146
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:42,400
Speaker 16: lots of people it's like that, we don't like him,

2147
01:58:42,400 --> 01:58:45,320
Speaker 16: but he's all that stands between us and madness.

2148
01:58:46,480 --> 01:58:47,320
Speaker 4: That's their view.

2149
01:58:47,600 --> 01:58:50,160
Speaker 3: So Christal, I think that's really interesting because there are

2150
01:58:50,160 --> 01:58:53,320
Speaker 3: a few people that have reckoned with the reality that

2151
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:56,480
Speaker 3: a lot of Republican voters again really don't like Trump.

2152
01:58:56,520 --> 01:59:00,240
Speaker 3: There's like thirty percent of the hardcore magabase that actually

2153
01:59:00,280 --> 01:59:02,880
Speaker 3: loves him, and there's a lot of polling that puts

2154
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:05,320
Speaker 3: that number around twenty to thirty percent of that sort

2155
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:08,920
Speaker 3: of hardcore, diehard maga, the people who are at rallies

2156
01:59:09,240 --> 01:59:13,600
Speaker 3: versus the average Republican voter or Republican leaning independent that

2157
01:59:13,640 --> 01:59:14,840
Speaker 3: sort of tolerates Trump.

2158
01:59:15,000 --> 01:59:16,360
Speaker 4: And they tolerate Trump not.

2159
01:59:16,360 --> 01:59:18,880
Speaker 3: Because they love him, they see him as a stand

2160
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:22,680
Speaker 3: up comedian, but because you know that Flight ninety three

2161
01:59:22,760 --> 01:59:26,040
Speaker 3: election essay that went really viral in twenty sixteen by

2162
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:29,520
Speaker 3: Michael Anton that was very influential and conservative intellectual circles,

2163
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:33,080
Speaker 3: not probably with Republican voters, but put that into words

2164
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:36,000
Speaker 3: that the threat of Hillary Clinton presidency because of some

2165
01:59:36,040 --> 01:59:38,800
Speaker 3: of those culture war questions was so big that people

2166
01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:41,480
Speaker 3: are willing to sort of swallow the pill of Donald

2167
01:59:41,480 --> 01:59:44,320
Speaker 3: Trump because they think four years of Hillary Clinton or

2168
01:59:44,400 --> 01:59:45,520
Speaker 3: Joe Biden is worse.

2169
01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:47,680
Speaker 4: And people can disagree with.

2170
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:51,240
Speaker 3: That argument, that's fine, but at least acknowledging the argument.

2171
01:59:51,320 --> 01:59:55,280
Speaker 3: I kind of can't believe that we're just having this

2172
01:59:55,360 --> 01:59:56,600
Speaker 3: conversation in a.

2173
01:59:56,640 --> 01:59:59,360
Speaker 4: Somewhat mainstream venue. I mean, it's Bill Maher's podcast.

2174
01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:02,280
Speaker 3: It's not like that conversation itself is happening on CNN

2175
02:00:02,760 --> 02:00:04,640
Speaker 3: all the way in twenty twenty four. I mean, that's

2176
02:00:04,680 --> 02:00:08,240
Speaker 3: what should have been understood in twenty sixteen, and there

2177
02:00:08,280 --> 02:00:10,680
Speaker 3: should have been people willing. You know, Katie Kirk obviously

2178
02:00:10,720 --> 02:00:12,880
Speaker 3: wasn't agreeing with him, but there should have been people

2179
02:00:12,880 --> 02:00:15,760
Speaker 3: willing to even hear that argument out in twenty sixteen

2180
02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:20,800
Speaker 3: instead of automatically shouting down Bill Maher as a enabler

2181
02:00:21,040 --> 02:00:24,480
Speaker 3: of racism or whatever else. But CNN will not even

2182
02:00:24,520 --> 02:00:26,440
Speaker 3: air a conversation like that. I think that's what he's

2183
02:00:26,440 --> 02:00:29,880
Speaker 3: talking about. There's nobody on the panel to represent that perspective,

2184
02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:33,760
Speaker 3: even though it's coming from a huge chunk of the electorate,

2185
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:35,840
Speaker 3: you know, north of what sixty million people voting for

2186
02:00:35,880 --> 02:00:38,640
Speaker 3: Trump in twenty twenty, and there's no representation in that

2187
02:00:38,680 --> 02:00:41,360
Speaker 3: in CNN because there's no tolerance for it, because you know,

2188
02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:43,120
Speaker 3: a lot of the younger staffers there see it as

2189
02:00:43,160 --> 02:00:50,840
Speaker 3: being an enabler of racism, that it's necessarily sort of bigotry, racism, transphobia, homophobia, etc.

2190
02:00:51,840 --> 02:00:53,840
Speaker 3: So you can't even have that conversation, you can't even

2191
02:00:53,880 --> 02:00:56,760
Speaker 3: hear it out, and I just kind of monologued there.

2192
02:00:56,800 --> 02:00:59,120
Speaker 3: But I do find it frustrating that, like he's having

2193
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:01,840
Speaker 3: this conversation while smoking a joint in a shadowy sort

2194
02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:04,600
Speaker 3: of podcast venue, when that's the conversation that should be

2195
02:01:05,560 --> 02:01:08,960
Speaker 3: had by the so called mainstream press, but everyone's too

2196
02:01:09,000 --> 02:01:10,400
Speaker 3: afraid to even talk about it.

2197
02:01:11,480 --> 02:01:13,880
Speaker 1: There's a lot to say here. So, first of all,

2198
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:16,880
Speaker 1: with regard to Bill Maher himself, he's been on this

2199
02:01:17,920 --> 02:01:22,480
Speaker 1: very noteworthy like right word shift journey for years at

2200
02:01:22,480 --> 02:01:26,320
Speaker 1: this point. He started out in twenty sixteen, he was

2201
02:01:26,400 --> 02:01:29,480
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders guy. Then in twenty twenty suddenly he was

2202
02:01:29,520 --> 02:01:35,040
Speaker 1: with Amy Klobashar. Now he's most of his noteworthy comments

2203
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:39,480
Speaker 1: are directed at the left and the excesses, the woke

2204
02:01:39,600 --> 02:01:43,720
Speaker 1: excesses of the left. He's very much consistently on that beat.

2205
02:01:44,080 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 1: So in that venous commentary, it's not like surprising to

2206
02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:49,320
Speaker 1: me at all that seems to be where Bill Maher

2207
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:54,520
Speaker 1: is at this point. That's number one. Number two with

2208
02:01:54,600 --> 02:01:59,680
Speaker 1: regard to the comments about trying to put yourself in

2209
02:01:59,760 --> 02:02:03,200
Speaker 1: the show shoes and give the most charitable reading of

2210
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:08,640
Speaker 1: ordinary Americans and their motivations. Obviously, that's something I have

2211
02:02:08,920 --> 02:02:13,640
Speaker 1: advocated for very strongly for a long time, very consistently.

2212
02:02:13,840 --> 02:02:15,960
Speaker 1: I will just say Bill Maher does not show that

2213
02:02:16,120 --> 02:02:19,360
Speaker 1: charity when it comes to many other groups, specifically young

2214
02:02:19,400 --> 02:02:22,200
Speaker 1: people who he has nothing but unbridled contemp for, and

2215
02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:25,080
Speaker 1: the left, which he also has nothing but unbridled contemp for.

2216
02:02:25,720 --> 02:02:32,520
Speaker 1: So where is this supposed empathy for differing perspectives when

2217
02:02:32,520 --> 02:02:36,040
Speaker 1: it comes to, you know, the young people who are

2218
02:02:36,200 --> 02:02:41,360
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly protesting the atrocities in Gaza, or who just have

2219
02:02:41,480 --> 02:02:44,440
Speaker 1: a different view of the world than he does. He

2220
02:02:44,560 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 1: has no problem very consistently smearing any and all young

2221
02:02:49,120 --> 02:02:53,560
Speaker 1: people as stupid and foolish and lazy and ill informed

2222
02:02:53,680 --> 02:02:58,920
Speaker 1: and whatever else. So if it was a consistent principle,

2223
02:02:59,040 --> 02:03:01,080
Speaker 1: like I like to hear people out, I like to

2224
02:03:01,120 --> 02:03:03,880
Speaker 1: try to understand their perspective, think about where they're coming from,

2225
02:03:03,960 --> 02:03:07,560
Speaker 1: et cetera, these comments might land a little differently with

2226
02:03:07,720 --> 02:03:10,800
Speaker 1: me than coming from Bill Maher, who, as I said,

2227
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:14,480
Speaker 1: is happy to smear people who he at this point

2228
02:03:14,560 --> 02:03:17,640
Speaker 1: sees as his biggest ideological opponents, which is those on

2229
02:03:17,720 --> 02:03:21,640
Speaker 1: the left. You know, he feels very comfortable doing that

2230
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:24,520
Speaker 1: on a very very regular basis, who probably did it

2231
02:03:24,600 --> 02:03:27,360
Speaker 1: in this same interview with Katie Kerr if I had

2232
02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:29,880
Speaker 1: to guess the other thing. And this ties into the

2233
02:03:30,480 --> 02:03:33,080
Speaker 1: we're about to talk about like some updates with with NPR,

2234
02:03:33,200 --> 02:03:38,240
Speaker 1: and that ties into this conversation. As a leftist, I

2235
02:03:38,360 --> 02:03:42,200
Speaker 1: find it offensive when people assume that I'm being represented

2236
02:03:42,240 --> 02:03:45,320
Speaker 1: somehow in CNN or the New York Times or at NPR.

2237
02:03:46,240 --> 02:03:50,040
Speaker 1: There is no ideological group that is more shut out

2238
02:03:50,120 --> 02:03:55,200
Speaker 1: of any sort of mainstream news outlet than actual class

2239
02:03:55,200 --> 02:03:58,600
Speaker 1: first leftist Like it's like we don't exist, and we're

2240
02:03:58,600 --> 02:04:02,760
Speaker 1: supposed to pretend like Jake Tapper is our ideological ally

2241
02:04:03,320 --> 02:04:06,880
Speaker 1: or somehow our worldview is it all reflected in these

2242
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:13,720
Speaker 1: corporate neoliberal spaces and there's never any crying about where's

2243
02:04:13,720 --> 02:04:15,440
Speaker 1: that diversity of viewpoint?

2244
02:04:15,880 --> 02:04:16,080
Speaker 4: You know?

2245
02:04:16,160 --> 02:04:19,720
Speaker 1: This is why occasionally, when like anin eternal Turner will

2246
02:04:19,720 --> 02:04:21,760
Speaker 1: sneak on for one segment or something, we're all like,

2247
02:04:21,800 --> 02:04:25,800
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's like we exist, but otherwise we

2248
02:04:25,920 --> 02:04:29,600
Speaker 1: understand what the game is because our ideology is threatening

2249
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:34,120
Speaker 1: to capital. It doesn't sit comfortably with the advertisers or

2250
02:04:34,160 --> 02:04:36,480
Speaker 1: like the donor class that at this point backs NPR,

2251
02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:42,200
Speaker 1: and so we're just invisibilized and you know, casually smear, dismissed,

2252
02:04:42,240 --> 02:04:46,040
Speaker 1: et cetera. And I never see any concern about that.

2253
02:04:46,200 --> 02:04:49,000
Speaker 1: At least conservatives have Fox News and it's bigger than

2254
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:51,520
Speaker 1: CNN the other The last thing I'm saying, and this

2255
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:56,280
Speaker 1: really does transitions to that NPR conversation, is like, let's

2256
02:04:56,360 --> 02:04:58,560
Speaker 1: just be serious about where we are in the medio

2257
02:04:58,720 --> 02:05:01,920
Speaker 1: media ecosystem. At this point. These places are not trying

2258
02:05:01,920 --> 02:05:05,400
Speaker 1: to play to a general audience. Their corporate they need

2259
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:09,760
Speaker 1: advertiser money. They have a specific audience that they're super serving.

2260
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:12,920
Speaker 1: It's a business model. It's not news, that's what it is.

2261
02:05:13,320 --> 02:05:18,240
Speaker 1: So we shouldn't be surprised when CNN doesn't platform my

2262
02:05:18,400 --> 02:05:23,320
Speaker 1: ideology or your ideology, because we aren't for the audience

2263
02:05:23,680 --> 02:05:26,440
Speaker 1: that they have and that they want to keep and

2264
02:05:26,480 --> 02:05:29,760
Speaker 1: that they're trying to super serve. We aren't for the

2265
02:05:30,160 --> 02:05:34,440
Speaker 1: advertisers that they want to keep buying ads. So the

2266
02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:37,680
Speaker 1: more that we're clear about what's actually happening here, and

2267
02:05:37,720 --> 02:05:39,880
Speaker 1: I think drop the pretense that this is some like

2268
02:05:40,000 --> 02:05:43,880
Speaker 1: neutral journalistic endeavor, I think the more easily we'll understand

2269
02:05:43,920 --> 02:05:46,920
Speaker 1: what's actually unfolding before our eyes at all of these

2270
02:05:47,000 --> 02:05:47,800
Speaker 1: various outlets.

2271
02:05:48,120 --> 02:05:50,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree completely that like the number one thing

2272
02:05:50,440 --> 02:05:53,080
Speaker 3: the media could do to improve instantly would to be,

2273
02:05:53,160 --> 02:05:55,640
Speaker 3: quite literally, just drop the pretense for New York Times

2274
02:05:55,680 --> 02:05:58,960
Speaker 3: to say our editorial slant on the opinion.

2275
02:05:58,680 --> 02:06:00,440
Speaker 4: Side also guides our news side.

2276
02:06:00,600 --> 02:06:02,600
Speaker 3: It just dropped the idea that this is the paper

2277
02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:05,040
Speaker 3: record for the country as a whole. That would do

2278
02:06:05,160 --> 02:06:10,200
Speaker 3: so much, whether it's CNN, NPR, Washington Posts, that would

2279
02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:13,560
Speaker 3: go so far to restoring trust in media and allow

2280
02:06:13,840 --> 02:06:16,320
Speaker 3: some of the genuinely brave and excellent reporting those outlets

2281
02:06:16,360 --> 02:06:23,000
Speaker 3: do overseas, you know, in actual war zones, to actually

2282
02:06:23,320 --> 02:06:26,720
Speaker 3: build credibility back with readers that rightfully have no trust.

2283
02:06:26,760 --> 02:06:29,280
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying all that reporting deserves credibility, but

2284
02:06:29,840 --> 02:06:31,280
Speaker 3: just that you know, there are people that are doing

2285
02:06:31,360 --> 02:06:34,920
Speaker 3: some good work that the critics of media aren't doing,

2286
02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:37,120
Speaker 3: mostly because they don't have, you know, the funding or

2287
02:06:37,160 --> 02:06:41,800
Speaker 3: the institutional infrastructure to do it. But you know, that's

2288
02:06:42,120 --> 02:06:44,800
Speaker 3: the number one thing that should start happening. CNN says,

2289
02:06:44,840 --> 02:06:47,760
Speaker 3: we don't have people on that make that perspective of

2290
02:06:47,760 --> 02:06:51,600
Speaker 3: Republican voters or that will give that perspective that amplify

2291
02:06:51,600 --> 02:06:54,760
Speaker 3: that perspective and give it anywhere near proportionality because we

2292
02:06:54,840 --> 02:06:58,800
Speaker 3: disagree with both sides is because we're mostly cultural progressives.

2293
02:06:58,880 --> 02:07:01,680
Speaker 3: And that chan key argument that has been around for

2294
02:07:01,720 --> 02:07:02,800
Speaker 3: decades is important.

2295
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:05,560
Speaker 4: And it was about class. It was about foreign policy

2296
02:07:05,600 --> 02:07:06,000
Speaker 4: and war.

2297
02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:08,920
Speaker 3: And now there are a lot of class first conservatives

2298
02:07:08,920 --> 02:07:12,720
Speaker 3: who are also finding themselves just as ostracized as class

2299
02:07:12,760 --> 02:07:15,320
Speaker 3: first leftists have been for a long time in corporate

2300
02:07:15,400 --> 02:07:19,080
Speaker 3: media spaces because this is deemed out of bounds. It's

2301
02:07:19,360 --> 02:07:22,480
Speaker 3: it is beyond the bounds of what is acceptable, of

2302
02:07:22,480 --> 02:07:26,160
Speaker 3: what is allowed to be speech in this country. So

2303
02:07:26,360 --> 02:07:28,040
Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting, and let's move on to

2304
02:07:28,080 --> 02:07:31,840
Speaker 3: this NPR thing because it's been a fascinating sort of

2305
02:07:31,840 --> 02:07:34,800
Speaker 3: turn of events. Let's put F two up on the

2306
02:07:34,840 --> 02:07:37,640
Speaker 3: screen speaking of class. I mean, it's just so interesting.

2307
02:07:37,640 --> 02:07:37,840
Speaker 11: Here.

2308
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:39,640
Speaker 4: This is Steve Guest.

2309
02:07:40,440 --> 02:07:46,640
Speaker 3: He posted these old Twitter posts from the new CEO

2310
02:07:47,000 --> 02:07:50,160
Speaker 3: of MPR, who I think got the job back in January.

2311
02:07:50,280 --> 02:07:51,560
Speaker 4: She's pretty new on the job.

2312
02:07:52,320 --> 02:07:55,160
Speaker 3: She was saying the best part of Arizona Get out

2313
02:07:55,200 --> 02:07:57,120
Speaker 3: the vote is my Biden Grandpa hat. So she's in

2314
02:07:57,200 --> 02:08:01,440
Speaker 3: a Biden for President hat. Back on November one, twenty twenty.

2315
02:08:01,520 --> 02:08:04,560
Speaker 3: She said in twenty sixteen, I do wish Hillary wouldn't

2316
02:08:04,640 --> 02:08:06,920
Speaker 3: use the language of quote boy and girl. It's a

2317
02:08:07,000 --> 02:08:10,760
Speaker 3: racing language for non binary people. I'm an unalloyed progressive

2318
02:08:10,760 --> 02:08:13,200
Speaker 3: and supporting Hillary this time around, she tweeted in July

2319
02:08:13,360 --> 02:08:17,600
Speaker 3: of twenty sixteen. Yes it is girl boss, like insufferable

2320
02:08:17,640 --> 02:08:22,520
Speaker 3: girl boss sanctimony. Matt Tayibi did a hilarious piece running

2321
02:08:22,600 --> 02:08:26,640
Speaker 3: down all of the time Katherine Marr, the new CEO

2322
02:08:26,720 --> 02:08:30,120
Speaker 3: of NPR, was just like destroying all of the fun

2323
02:08:30,200 --> 02:08:35,840
Speaker 3: in holidays by just doing this like virtue signaling political correctness.

2324
02:08:36,120 --> 02:08:39,880
Speaker 3: It was a really wonderful sort of journey through her

2325
02:08:39,880 --> 02:08:43,480
Speaker 3: political arc. But she used to be at Wikimedia. I

2326
02:08:43,520 --> 02:08:48,080
Speaker 3: think she's like had some like fellowships with World Economic

2327
02:08:48,160 --> 02:08:52,400
Speaker 3: Forum in those places, and Wikimedia is Wikipedia is a

2328
02:08:52,440 --> 02:08:55,000
Speaker 3: place that a lot of people see as being sort

2329
02:08:55,040 --> 02:08:56,280
Speaker 3: of unbiased and neutral.

2330
02:08:56,320 --> 02:08:56,720
Speaker 4: It is not.

2331
02:08:56,880 --> 02:08:58,760
Speaker 3: We've done some reporting on the federalist set, like the

2332
02:08:58,840 --> 02:09:05,880
Speaker 3: horrifying levels of powerful influence over Wikipedia Wikimedia. I think

2333
02:09:05,880 --> 02:09:09,040
Speaker 3: she had positions on other sort of big corporate friendly

2334
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:10,440
Speaker 3: places before.

2335
02:09:10,320 --> 02:09:15,360
Speaker 4: Landing there, But this all has bubbled to the.

2336
02:09:15,360 --> 02:09:19,480
Speaker 3: Surface because a guy named Darry Berliner wrote an essay

2337
02:09:19,560 --> 02:09:22,800
Speaker 3: for The Free Press, which is Barry Weiss's outlet, last week,

2338
02:09:22,840 --> 02:09:24,400
Speaker 3: and we can go ahead and put F three up

2339
02:09:24,440 --> 02:09:29,600
Speaker 3: on the screen, making some pretty clear accusations of just

2340
02:09:30,480 --> 02:09:35,520
Speaker 3: bias that was culture based, class based at NPR that

2341
02:09:35,640 --> 02:09:38,880
Speaker 3: he's worked there for twenty five years, he just saw

2342
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:42,240
Speaker 3: it escalate in recent years, for example, calling the lab

2343
02:09:42,320 --> 02:09:48,600
Speaker 3: leak conspiracy theory and discrediting it immediately. Now he was

2344
02:09:48,640 --> 02:09:53,880
Speaker 3: suspended yesterday, and so this happened as all of these

2345
02:09:53,920 --> 02:09:57,000
Speaker 3: posts from Catherine Marr were circulating.

2346
02:09:57,160 --> 02:09:58,280
Speaker 4: And it is pretty.

2347
02:09:58,000 --> 02:10:00,520
Speaker 3: Funny because the New York Times and TABI another great

2348
02:10:00,520 --> 02:10:05,080
Speaker 3: piece about this. The New York Times totally dismissed and

2349
02:10:05,120 --> 02:10:08,760
Speaker 3: like downplayed all of the serious concerns about this woman's bias.

2350
02:10:08,840 --> 02:10:11,040
Speaker 3: You know, she's never been a journalist, but she has

2351
02:10:11,080 --> 02:10:15,240
Speaker 3: overseeing journalism at NPR, which has the added kind of

2352
02:10:15,320 --> 02:10:19,560
Speaker 3: credibility benefit built into it of being National Public Radio,

2353
02:10:20,560 --> 02:10:22,440
Speaker 3: a place that you know, Ryan and I talked last

2354
02:10:22,480 --> 02:10:24,880
Speaker 3: week used to be. People have a lot of nostalgia

2355
02:10:25,080 --> 02:10:27,240
Speaker 3: for different eras of MPR, even if it used to

2356
02:10:27,280 --> 02:10:28,520
Speaker 3: be kind of slanted left.

2357
02:10:28,800 --> 02:10:31,920
Speaker 4: People liked NPR and Now, I don't know, Crystal Hoften,

2358
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:32,680
Speaker 4: you listen to it.

2359
02:10:33,160 --> 02:10:35,480
Speaker 3: I listened to it a lot, and I listened to

2360
02:10:35,560 --> 02:10:39,240
Speaker 3: it mostly to get like the Cultural Progressive I mean,

2361
02:10:39,240 --> 02:10:41,560
Speaker 3: they're like anti free speech now, even though they have

2362
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:44,640
Speaker 3: a show called one a Like, it's just amazing the

2363
02:10:44,680 --> 02:10:48,440
Speaker 3: turn of events at MPR, like pro censorship on social

2364
02:10:48,520 --> 02:10:51,440
Speaker 3: media and all of that. So, you know, I actually

2365
02:10:51,480 --> 02:10:53,800
Speaker 3: think there's probably a good reason to suspend a guy

2366
02:10:53,840 --> 02:10:58,640
Speaker 3: who publicly airs your dirty laundry if you're a media outlet,

2367
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:01,640
Speaker 3: like that's you know, I'm sure that's against some type

2368
02:11:01,640 --> 02:11:05,760
Speaker 3: of contract agreement. So I kind of get that, But

2369
02:11:05,800 --> 02:11:08,000
Speaker 3: I do find it somewhat interesting that you have this

2370
02:11:08,240 --> 02:11:13,760
Speaker 3: breathless sort of defense of mar or protection over mar

2371
02:11:14,160 --> 02:11:17,320
Speaker 3: or whatever in the media and then this like, well

2372
02:11:17,480 --> 02:11:21,600
Speaker 3: this Berlin or guy like he's getting suspended while the

2373
02:11:21,640 --> 02:11:25,200
Speaker 3: media is sort of defending her, rushing to her defense.

2374
02:11:25,280 --> 02:11:29,040
Speaker 3: It's just like, come on, guys, like both sites can

2375
02:11:29,080 --> 02:11:31,480
Speaker 3: be wrong here. It's pretty clear that NPR has gone

2376
02:11:31,480 --> 02:11:33,520
Speaker 3: in one direction over the other.

2377
02:11:34,040 --> 02:11:35,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think this dude was pretty much

2378
02:11:35,800 --> 02:11:39,000
Speaker 1: asking to be fired, right, Like, yes, if you work

2379
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:41,200
Speaker 1: for an outlet and you go on a different outlet

2380
02:11:41,360 --> 02:11:43,120
Speaker 1: and you're like, I hate this outlet I were in,

2381
02:11:43,120 --> 02:11:45,760
Speaker 1: here's all the problems, Like you're kind of asking to

2382
02:11:45,800 --> 02:11:47,879
Speaker 1: be fired. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy

2383
02:11:47,960 --> 02:11:49,840
Speaker 1: for that. I think he probably knew that was the

2384
02:11:50,000 --> 02:11:52,360
Speaker 1: likely outcome of his actions, and he was ready to

2385
02:11:52,400 --> 02:11:54,600
Speaker 1: move on for some of the reasons that he laid out.

2386
02:11:54,680 --> 02:11:58,760
Speaker 1: That's fine. In terms of this CEO, I don't know.

2387
02:11:58,880 --> 02:12:01,400
Speaker 1: To me, she seems like a fit for what NPR

2388
02:12:01,600 --> 02:12:05,800
Speaker 1: is today. And if you consider those the views that

2389
02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:08,360
Speaker 1: you put up there, you know, like I'm on your

2390
02:12:08,360 --> 02:12:11,160
Speaker 1: canvassing for Biden and I love Hillary, and you know,

2391
02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:17,360
Speaker 1: the like language PC language obsession stuff. How safe is

2392
02:12:17,400 --> 02:12:19,760
Speaker 1: that for rich people, corporate donors as that are.

2393
02:12:20,680 --> 02:12:24,000
Speaker 4: I mean that it's the public relations strategy.

2394
02:12:23,960 --> 02:12:28,280
Speaker 1: Yep, this is their business model. They are not actually

2395
02:12:28,320 --> 02:12:31,320
Speaker 1: really public radio at this point. They receive very little

2396
02:12:31,400 --> 02:12:34,320
Speaker 1: funding from the federal government. Most of their budget comes

2397
02:12:34,320 --> 02:12:38,480
Speaker 1: from rich donors and advertisements. So guess what you get,

2398
02:12:38,480 --> 02:12:43,040
Speaker 1: this neoliberal ideology that is really safe for rich white people.

2399
02:12:43,720 --> 02:12:46,960
Speaker 1: That's their constituency, that's who they're applaying to. And in

2400
02:12:47,000 --> 02:12:51,440
Speaker 1: that context, the CEO is an absolutely perfect fit. So

2401
02:12:51,560 --> 02:12:54,400
Speaker 1: I know, ironically, a lot of the response to the

2402
02:12:54,480 --> 02:13:01,400
Speaker 1: right of NPR's you know, intense identitarian liberal turn is well,

2403
02:13:01,440 --> 02:13:04,520
Speaker 1: we should defund them. The defunding is actually part of

2404
02:13:04,520 --> 02:13:07,760
Speaker 1: the problem, because the fact that the business model now

2405
02:13:07,920 --> 02:13:11,400
Speaker 1: is reliant on these like rich donors and advertisers is

2406
02:13:11,880 --> 02:13:14,080
Speaker 1: a big part of the story of how they've become

2407
02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:16,600
Speaker 1: what they are. You know, the original concept, if you

2408
02:13:16,680 --> 02:13:20,200
Speaker 1: go back to the seventies, it was this very like

2409
02:13:21,080 --> 02:13:27,120
Speaker 1: populist public access. We're going to talk to Mississippi about

2410
02:13:27,120 --> 02:13:30,080
Speaker 1: what's going on with his soybean crop or whatever. We're

2411
02:13:30,120 --> 02:13:33,040
Speaker 1: going to hear from regular Americans all around the country.

2412
02:13:33,560 --> 02:13:37,840
Speaker 1: I think that's very valuable. I appreciate that, like, you know,

2413
02:13:38,160 --> 02:13:40,840
Speaker 1: public access. I think about remember Bernie those like TV

2414
02:13:40,960 --> 02:13:43,920
Speaker 1: shows he used to do from the local mall or whatever. Yes,

2415
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:49,040
Speaker 1: like that's kind of a vibe, but it's not super profitable.

2416
02:13:49,720 --> 02:13:52,320
Speaker 1: So if you have to actually like make money on

2417
02:13:52,360 --> 02:13:55,240
Speaker 1: this thing, and you can't be reliant on federal government

2418
02:13:55,400 --> 02:13:58,120
Speaker 1: just backing you to do this thing that's genuinely like

2419
02:13:58,160 --> 02:14:01,840
Speaker 1: an educational or public search, then you're going to end

2420
02:14:01,960 --> 02:14:04,760
Speaker 1: up acting like the rest of corporate media. And we

2421
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:07,040
Speaker 1: really see this. You know, we really see this turnaround

2422
02:14:07,080 --> 02:14:09,680
Speaker 1: Trump where he is this very divisive figure, and some

2423
02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:11,520
Speaker 1: media outlets go in the direction of We're going to

2424
02:14:11,520 --> 02:14:13,120
Speaker 1: be the Trump people, and others go in the direction

2425
02:14:13,200 --> 02:14:15,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna be the anti Trump people. George Floyd is

2426
02:14:15,480 --> 02:14:19,840
Speaker 1: another Fisher in American society. And so no one should

2427
02:14:19,880 --> 02:14:23,360
Speaker 1: be surprised since NPR really is basically like a corporate

2428
02:14:23,360 --> 02:14:26,000
Speaker 1: media outlet at this point, that they follow the same

2429
02:14:26,040 --> 02:14:28,760
Speaker 1: trajectory of every other corporate media outlet.

2430
02:14:29,440 --> 02:14:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2431
02:14:29,720 --> 02:14:31,240
Speaker 4: No, it's actually so interesting.

2432
02:14:31,400 --> 02:14:34,320
Speaker 3: And the last thing I'll say on this because that

2433
02:14:34,840 --> 02:14:37,800
Speaker 3: the sort of Chansky argument has been papered over by

2434
02:14:37,840 --> 02:14:40,400
Speaker 3: the culture War in recent years to the point where

2435
02:14:40,720 --> 02:14:43,680
Speaker 3: you know, you use the sort of necessary shorthand about

2436
02:14:43,880 --> 02:14:48,640
Speaker 3: liberal media or left wing media, and honestly, I do

2437
02:14:48,680 --> 02:14:50,760
Speaker 3: that all the time because there's really I mean, you

2438
02:14:50,760 --> 02:14:55,320
Speaker 3: can launch into a tangential two minute thing about what

2439
02:14:55,360 --> 02:14:57,960
Speaker 3: you mean when you say that, but you know, it's

2440
02:14:58,240 --> 02:15:01,640
Speaker 3: it's really what you mean is cultural sort of progressivism

2441
02:15:02,040 --> 02:15:04,520
Speaker 3: in the along the lines of what Catherine Mahr is

2442
02:15:04,800 --> 02:15:07,640
Speaker 3: just displaying so clearly when she stop using the language

2443
02:15:07,640 --> 02:15:11,840
Speaker 3: of quote boys and girls posts that to her Twitter page, Yeah,

2444
02:15:11,880 --> 02:15:16,520
Speaker 3: I mean, that's it. It's hard to even have these

2445
02:15:16,520 --> 02:15:20,400
Speaker 3: conversations now because the terms have been scrambled because of

2446
02:15:20,400 --> 02:15:24,920
Speaker 3: that culture war embrace just in the last decade or so. That,

2447
02:15:24,960 --> 02:15:29,840
Speaker 3: by the way, stems from real class biases in ways

2448
02:15:29,840 --> 02:15:32,000
Speaker 3: that have been uniting to both the left and the right.

2449
02:15:32,120 --> 02:15:33,800
Speaker 3: And that's not to say the left and the right

2450
02:15:33,840 --> 02:15:36,800
Speaker 3: have found common cause on like medicare for all so

2451
02:15:36,880 --> 02:15:39,520
Speaker 3: much as it is to say, when you pull working

2452
02:15:39,520 --> 02:15:42,200
Speaker 3: class people on some of these cultural issues, like using

2453
02:15:42,200 --> 02:15:45,080
Speaker 3: the word Latin X for example, you find a very

2454
02:15:45,080 --> 02:15:49,360
Speaker 3: different position from what the corporate media has. And I

2455
02:15:49,360 --> 02:15:51,840
Speaker 3: think that's one of the openings in the marketplace that

2456
02:15:51,880 --> 02:15:52,520
Speaker 3: you and Sager.

2457
02:15:53,200 --> 02:15:55,360
Speaker 4: It's not like you were trying to, you know, fill

2458
02:15:55,400 --> 02:15:57,120
Speaker 4: that gap. You just naturally do.

2459
02:15:57,920 --> 02:16:00,800
Speaker 3: And that's what people initially responded to, and hopefully that's

2460
02:16:00,800 --> 02:16:02,800
Speaker 3: what people respond to on the show, is that, like,

2461
02:16:03,160 --> 02:16:07,480
Speaker 3: you need media that is responsive to what people actually

2462
02:16:07,880 --> 02:16:09,800
Speaker 3: want to hear, and in so many cases that is

2463
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:13,720
Speaker 3: absolutely class based, and you just don't get that anywhere,

2464
02:16:13,800 --> 02:16:17,760
Speaker 3: even from purportedly left wing media at all.

2465
02:16:17,880 --> 02:16:20,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, this lady does not represent me.

2466
02:16:21,520 --> 02:16:23,640
Speaker 4: Yes she does, Crystal, Yeah, she does not.

2467
02:16:24,680 --> 02:16:27,440
Speaker 1: I think you guys, go Hillary Christian to be proof

2468
02:16:27,440 --> 02:16:27,720
Speaker 1: of that.

2469
02:16:29,160 --> 02:16:33,280
Speaker 4: You guys, you guys need to have That's fine.

2470
02:16:33,959 --> 02:16:36,280
Speaker 1: We could be friends. You know, I've got friends who

2471
02:16:36,280 --> 02:16:39,720
Speaker 1: were on team Hillary in twenty sixteen and were, you know,

2472
02:16:39,920 --> 02:16:43,040
Speaker 1: very aggressively and still are pro Biden. That's fine, but

2473
02:16:43,280 --> 02:16:46,240
Speaker 1: you know, she does not reflect my political ideology, and

2474
02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:51,000
Speaker 1: very few people in mainstream press actually do, if any,

2475
02:16:51,280 --> 02:16:52,199
Speaker 1: To be honest with.

2476
02:16:52,160 --> 02:16:56,840
Speaker 3: You, absolutely no, it's it's just the whole MPR saga

2477
02:16:56,879 --> 02:17:00,760
Speaker 3: has been fun to watch, and I think partially is because,

2478
02:17:01,640 --> 02:17:03,240
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't like the concept of state media

2479
02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:07,680
Speaker 3: at all, honestly, but I do like the nostalgia. That's

2480
02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:10,400
Speaker 3: I like hearing people's nostalgia for the different era of

2481
02:17:10,640 --> 02:17:12,680
Speaker 3: MPR because I think it does harken back to a

2482
02:17:12,720 --> 02:17:16,360
Speaker 3: time when there was just generally more consensus, and some

2483
02:17:16,440 --> 02:17:18,440
Speaker 3: of that consensus was bad, but some of it actually

2484
02:17:18,520 --> 02:17:22,040
Speaker 3: was good. There was this touchstone culturally in NPR that

2485
02:17:22,080 --> 02:17:24,199
Speaker 3: a lot of people listen to and could talk about

2486
02:17:24,200 --> 02:17:26,520
Speaker 3: it as a water cooler, the proverberal water cooler, and

2487
02:17:26,560 --> 02:17:29,080
Speaker 3: that was important, I think to just a lot of

2488
02:17:29,120 --> 02:17:30,000
Speaker 3: our shared values.

2489
02:17:30,560 --> 02:17:32,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think there is a way public

2490
02:17:32,440 --> 02:17:36,400
Speaker 1: funded media can be done well, and obviously we need

2491
02:17:36,600 --> 02:17:40,320
Speaker 1: different models of media than what we've collapsed to, which

2492
02:17:40,360 --> 02:17:43,480
Speaker 1: is this you know, corporate funded model, and then you know,

2493
02:17:43,520 --> 02:17:45,959
Speaker 1: in independent media there are good parts about it, but

2494
02:17:46,000 --> 02:17:50,200
Speaker 1: it's also subject to its own risks and perils of

2495
02:17:50,240 --> 02:17:53,400
Speaker 1: audience capture and trying to play to you know, narrow

2496
02:17:53,440 --> 02:17:57,920
Speaker 1: of an audience in a bubble, et cetera. So definitely

2497
02:17:57,920 --> 02:18:00,720
Speaker 1: need a whole whole media rethink because I don't think

2498
02:18:01,080 --> 02:18:02,760
Speaker 1: these outlets are serving the American.

2499
02:18:02,440 --> 02:18:06,360
Speaker 3: People well well, speaking of platforming, genuine debate that represents

2500
02:18:06,879 --> 02:18:11,199
Speaker 3: the actual American public. Stay tuned to this channel, right, Crystal,

2501
02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:14,720
Speaker 3: because Sager is moderating one such debate tonight here on

2502
02:18:14,760 --> 02:18:17,520
Speaker 3: the channel at seven pm on Israel.

2503
02:18:18,040 --> 02:18:21,560
Speaker 1: That's right, it is going to be Sager as moderator.

2504
02:18:22,120 --> 02:18:27,000
Speaker 1: We've got on one side Batya Ngarsargon and Dennis Prager

2505
02:18:27,400 --> 02:18:30,840
Speaker 1: as the pro Israel side, and we've got Dave Smith

2506
02:18:30,920 --> 02:18:35,520
Speaker 1: and Jank Uger on the pro palestinior anti. However you

2507
02:18:35,600 --> 02:18:38,880
Speaker 1: want to raise that side pro ceeds fire will say

2508
02:18:39,320 --> 02:18:42,320
Speaker 1: side of the equation. So I'm excited to watch. It

2509
02:18:42,320 --> 02:18:44,320
Speaker 1: should be really interesting. I always learn a lot from

2510
02:18:44,360 --> 02:18:47,320
Speaker 1: these things. Too, on a more serious note about the

2511
02:18:47,400 --> 02:18:50,800
Speaker 1: way everybody's thinking about it, new historical facts and new

2512
02:18:50,840 --> 02:18:53,360
Speaker 1: things for me to personally grapple with two in terms

2513
02:18:53,360 --> 02:18:54,520
Speaker 1: of how I'm viewing the conflict.

2514
02:18:54,959 --> 02:18:57,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and Ryan's on spring break, but he'll be back

2515
02:18:57,760 --> 02:19:01,280
Speaker 3: here next week for another edition of Points, and the

2516
02:19:01,320 --> 02:19:02,200
Speaker 3: weight is almost over.

2517
02:19:02,360 --> 02:19:04,720
Speaker 4: I think we can start teasing this a little bit

2518
02:19:04,800 --> 02:19:06,200
Speaker 4: more heavily, Crystal.

2519
02:19:06,520 --> 02:19:11,040
Speaker 3: There will be some new Counterpoints content coming down the pike,

2520
02:19:11,160 --> 02:19:13,320
Speaker 3: so make sure that you subscribe. You get the full

2521
02:19:13,400 --> 02:19:16,039
Speaker 3: version of Counterpoints when you subscribe right to your inbox,

2522
02:19:16,600 --> 02:19:19,160
Speaker 3: you know, not just the couple clips that we post

2523
02:19:19,640 --> 02:19:22,119
Speaker 3: on Wednesdays from the show, but the whole thing right

2524
02:19:22,160 --> 02:19:24,400
Speaker 3: to your inbox, and you get all kinds of different

2525
02:19:24,400 --> 02:19:28,200
Speaker 3: benefits of your premium subscription for Breaking Points as well.

2526
02:19:28,240 --> 02:19:31,160
Speaker 3: So that's Breakingpoints dot com and I would highly recommend

2527
02:19:31,200 --> 02:19:32,680
Speaker 3: everybody stay tuned for next week.

2528
02:19:33,160 --> 02:19:36,240
Speaker 1: Yes, speaking of giving the people what they want, we

2529
02:19:36,360 --> 02:19:40,160
Speaker 1: had many, many requests, seriously for more Ryan and Emily,

2530
02:19:40,240 --> 02:19:41,920
Speaker 1: and we were trying to make that happen for you

2531
02:19:41,959 --> 02:19:44,080
Speaker 1: good people. So thank you for your support and hoping

2532
02:19:44,080 --> 02:19:47,039
Speaker 1: to enable that, and Emily, thank you for having me.

2533
02:19:47,120 --> 02:19:50,320
Speaker 1: I'll be back here again with Sager tomorrow. So hope

2534
02:19:50,360 --> 02:19:51,480
Speaker 1: you guys aren't sick of me yet.

2535
02:19:51,879 --> 02:19:53,240
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I don't know if you saw

2536
02:19:53,240 --> 02:19:55,840
Speaker 3: this Chrystal, but now Ryan and Emily there's competition in

2537
02:19:55,840 --> 02:19:58,680
Speaker 3: the Ryan and Emily department because Ryan Gosling and Emily

2538
02:19:58,680 --> 02:20:01,400
Speaker 3: Blunt are in a new movie together and they just

2539
02:20:01,440 --> 02:20:03,960
Speaker 3: covered Taylor Swifts all too well on Saturday Night Live,

2540
02:20:04,000 --> 02:20:06,720
Speaker 3: and Taylor referred to it as Ryan and Emily's version,

2541
02:20:07,360 --> 02:20:11,600
Speaker 3: and we had some great viewer viewer response to that,

2542
02:20:11,680 --> 02:20:13,600
Speaker 3: they like, this is not the Ryan and Emily that

2543
02:20:13,640 --> 02:20:16,400
Speaker 3: I've come to know and love. Of course, Ryan, Grimm

2544
02:20:16,400 --> 02:20:21,280
Speaker 3: and Emily get much more famous, uh and iconic duo,

2545
02:20:21,879 --> 02:20:22,640
Speaker 3: but we name.

2546
02:20:22,480 --> 02:20:25,280
Speaker 1: It more iconic Ride and Emily than Ride Grim and

2547
02:20:25,280 --> 02:20:26,400
Speaker 1: Emily Skies.

2548
02:20:27,879 --> 02:20:31,160
Speaker 3: Well, stay tuned for more of that and Soccer will

2549
02:20:31,160 --> 02:20:35,800
Speaker 3: be back with Crystal tomorrow. Thanks so much for tuning in, everyone,