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Speaker 1: Time is the greatest gift we can give and receive.

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Speaker 1: As we turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers

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Speaker 1: Squib is recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary,

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Speaker 1: more time. The Time Back Campaign celebrates those everyday heroes

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Speaker 1: who are working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping

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Speaker 1: get patients more time to experience key moments like seeing

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Speaker 1: a child learned to ride a bike or a long

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Speaker 1: awaited vacation. As we turn back our clocks, let's pause

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Speaker 1: to thank the doctors who make a difference every day.

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Speaker 1: Discover more about the Time Back Campaign and join Bristol

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Speaker 1: Myers Squib and celebrating the physicians who give the gift

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Speaker 1: of more time at BMS dot com slash time back.

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Speaker 2: Now. He's coming in and I think he's really sensing

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Speaker 2: so he didn't see before, which is his own mortality.

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Speaker 2: And he wants to change the world, not just be

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Speaker 2: the center of attention. That's why he's building a ninety

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Speaker 2: thousand square foot ballroom at the White House. That's why

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Speaker 2: he's desperate to get the Nobel Peace Prize. That's why

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Speaker 2: he's transforming much of the rest of the whales. He

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Speaker 2: wants people to confront the fact that he's there and

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Speaker 2: the world is not going to be the same because

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Speaker 2: he was there. Hi.

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Speaker 1: Everyone, I'm Katie Couric, and this is next question. My

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Speaker 1: guest today. Jonathan Carl is ABC News Chief Washington correspondent

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Speaker 1: and co anchor of This Week. He has covered every

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Speaker 1: president since Bill Clinton, but none more closely than the

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Speaker 1: current administration. His latest book, his fourth on Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: is called Retribution Donald Trump in the Campaign That Changed America.

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Speaker 1: The book picks up hours after Trump's reelection in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, when operating on virtually no sleep, John calls

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump on his cell phone, and surprisingly, the president

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Speaker 1: elect picks up. What follows is a revealing and unsettling

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Speaker 1: look at power, loyalty, and the forces that are reshaping

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Speaker 1: our democracy. This was a very wide ranging conversation. I

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Speaker 1: could talk to John for hours, but we did talk

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Speaker 1: about Trump's fixation on retribution, his handpicked cabinet, the differences

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Speaker 1: between his first and second terms, and whether or not

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Speaker 1: his popularity is starting to wane even among hardcore Magas supporters.

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Speaker 1: So here's my conversation with Jonathan Carl. All Right, Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Carl aka John Carl, great to see you. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for spending some time with me talking about

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Speaker 1: your new book. By the way, how do you have

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Speaker 1: time to write a book when you're covering the Trump administration?

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Speaker 2: I mean, my god, I don't know. I really don't know.

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Speaker 2: I've now written. I think one of my daughters added

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Speaker 2: it up. I think it's fifteen hundred pages. Four different

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Speaker 2: book books, the first one while he was in office.

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Speaker 2: The first time, I don't know. This one almost killed

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Speaker 2: me though. This was a heavy lift.

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Speaker 1: You know, these are very different times than your previous books,

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Speaker 1: and I think you know, we hear the word John

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Speaker 1: unprecedented constantly, but it almost seems to be used on

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Speaker 1: a daily basis. Let's start where your book opened. So

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Speaker 1: November sixth, twenty twenty four. It's the day after President

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Speaker 1: Trump's election to his second term. You've just returned to

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Speaker 1: your hotel room after being up for more than twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours of election night coverage, and you decide to

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Speaker 1: give the president elect a call.

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Speaker 3: What happened?

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Speaker 2: It's a strange thing. I mean, the context is I

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Speaker 2: had been talking to him over the phone throughout the

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Speaker 2: fall campaign, which again is something that I talk about unprecedented.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and I didn't do it on his previous campaigns.

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Speaker 2: It just it just started happening.

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Speaker 3: How did you get his number? By the way, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I had had his number, somebody gave it to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, more than a year earlier. I'd never really

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Speaker 2: used it because if I wanted to get a hold

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Speaker 2: of him, and I went through you know, I went

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Speaker 2: through somebody else. And the first time I called him

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Speaker 2: directly was after Butler, after he was shot in Butler,

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Speaker 2: and I just wanted to leave a voicemail message and

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Speaker 2: say I'm really horrified and sorry about what happened, and

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Speaker 2: I hope you're feeling okay. And in this case, the

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Speaker 2: election happens again. You know what it's like, Katie, to

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Speaker 2: be round the clock coverage and then you have to

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Speaker 2: do the morning show and then I mean, I was

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Speaker 2: dead tired, but I figured I would call and leave

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Speaker 2: him a voicemail message to just say basically congratulations. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I had written a book about his attempts to overturn

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Speaker 2: the last election. It was called Betrayal. I had warned

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Speaker 2: that he posed a threat to American democracy. I had

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Speaker 2: done all this stuff. I'd infuriated him with much of

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Speaker 2: what I had said in my reporting, but I figured

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Speaker 2: at this point I should call and say, you know

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Speaker 2: you want congratulations, And to my total shock, seven thirty

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Speaker 2: in the morning, he has been up all night. He

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Speaker 2: has an administration to put together right now, he's just

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Speaker 2: won the presidency again, and he answers the phone. He

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Speaker 2: answers the phone. He's like, oh oh. And sometimes when

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Speaker 2: I call him, he would say, uh, hey, Jonathan, what's up,

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Speaker 2: which was always weird because like, does he have my number?

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Speaker 1: Is he?

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Speaker 2: But other times he would act like he had no

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Speaker 2: idea it was calling. This time he acted like he

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Speaker 2: had no idea, and I just said, hello, mister president elect,

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Speaker 2: I'm just calling to say congratulations. And he pauses and

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Speaker 2: he says to me, on what on what? Jonathan? You

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Speaker 2: tell me on what? And he sounded at first I

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Speaker 2: like laughed. I thought he was joking, but he wasn't joking.

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Speaker 2: What mean well to me? He wanted to hear me

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Speaker 2: say it. He wanted to hear me say that he

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Speaker 2: had won this great victory. It was like in Breaking Bad,

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Speaker 2: that scene when Brian Cranston's character Walter White has vanquished

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Speaker 2: the other drug dealers, and they meet out on the

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Speaker 2: desert to like pay their respects, and Walter White Cranston says,

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Speaker 2: say my name, and Trump wanted to hear me say it,

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Speaker 2: so I said it. I said, congratulations on the greatest

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Speaker 2: comeback victory in the history of American politics. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's what it was.

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Speaker 3: And what did he say after that? Did he say

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Speaker 3: thank you?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah? Then he was like, oh, well, thank you

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Speaker 2: very much. It was it was really quite a victory.

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Speaker 2: It was quite a victory. It was very nice of

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Speaker 2: you to say that. So yes, but at first he

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Speaker 2: was like, come on, come out with it. What did

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Speaker 2: I do?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because you all have developed a

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Speaker 1: fascinating relationship. I know that he has labeled you, and

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Speaker 1: you write about this a third rate reporter. He's called

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Speaker 1: you a real scumbag. He's declared you will never make it.

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Speaker 1: He did answer a lot of your calls in the

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Speaker 1: lead up to the election. But do you think part

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Speaker 1: of this is performative, That the way he talks to

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Speaker 1: someone publicly is really for consumption by the maga crowd,

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Speaker 1: and that he has less animosity when he's talking to

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Speaker 1: you on the phone.

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Speaker 2: There's absolutely no question about it. You know, my very

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Speaker 2: first book was front wrote The Trump Show, and I

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Speaker 2: described how he saw the presidency as the world's greatest

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Speaker 2: reality show, and a great reality show needs to have,

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Speaker 2: you know, heroes. In that case him, when you're with

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Speaker 2: him in person, he is by the way, he has

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Speaker 2: gotten very angry at me behind the scenes, and that's

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Speaker 2: when you know he's truly upset. When he's berating you

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Speaker 2: and the cameras aren't there to document it, that's when

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Speaker 2: you know he's truly upset. But even then it never

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Speaker 2: really lasts because at root, Donald Trump, I believe, and

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Speaker 2: I try not to be like a psychoanalyst here, but

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Speaker 2: he wants to be loved. He wants to be liked,

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Speaker 2: and he wants you to reaffirm your you know that

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Speaker 2: you like the guy, so he treats you really well

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Speaker 2: and doesn't stay angry. I mean he I'll never forget that.

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Speaker 2: During COVID, we had those press conferences every day and

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Speaker 2: there were only fourteen seats in the White House briefing

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Speaker 2: room that were filled because of social distancing, and he

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Speaker 2: just went after me in the most deeply personal way

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Speaker 2: on national television, tens of millions of people watching.

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Speaker 1: Was that so embarrassing for you or like it must

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Speaker 1: have made you so uncomfortable?

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Speaker 2: I mean it, I mean the idea that a president

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Speaker 2: of the United States is doing that to you, and

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Speaker 2: you're a reporter who you know, is just there to

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Speaker 2: try to like tell the story. You don't want to

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Speaker 2: get in a fight with the president. You want to

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Speaker 2: like do your job. But I had known him for

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Speaker 2: so long somehow it like didn't really bother me. I

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Speaker 2: just like ignored it and went on. But like a

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Speaker 2: minute or two later, he comes back to me and

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Speaker 2: calls on me again for another question, like nothing had

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Speaker 2: just happened, And did you see like recently I went

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Speaker 2: back to the White House. I'm not there every day anymore.

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Speaker 2: I went back to the White House and Pam Bondi

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Speaker 2: had just said that the Justice Department was going to

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Speaker 2: start looking into prosecuting hate speech. After Charlie Kirk and

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Speaker 2: a lot of Republicans, a lot of conservatives, a lot

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Speaker 2: of Trump supporters think that's a terrible idea. You know,

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Speaker 2: hate speech is free speech, you don't prosecute it. So

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Speaker 2: I asked him, you know, she says she's going to

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Speaker 2: prosecute hate speech. Out of your supporters don't like it, Well,

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Speaker 2: what do you think of it? And he turns to

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Speaker 2: me and he says, maybe she'll go after you because

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Speaker 2: you have a lot of hate in your heart. And

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Speaker 2: I didn't even like I swear I must like didn't

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Speaker 2: even like hear it because I'm like into the next thing.

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Speaker 2: But before he's done answering my question, he's asking me

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Speaker 2: if I'm going to take my beautiful wife out to

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Speaker 2: dinner in Washington, d C. Now that he's like solved

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Speaker 2: all the crime. I mean, it's like he doesn't process

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Speaker 2: what he's done, and so I don't know. It's bizarre.

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Speaker 1: You know. You say that he really wants to be liked,

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Speaker 1: he wants to be loved, he wants to be admired,

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Speaker 1: But good lord, I mean, have you ever seen someone

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Speaker 1: go about wanting to be liked by behaving the way

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Speaker 1: he does, By insulting people, by diminishing people, by behaving

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Speaker 1: the way he does. The pathology is so bizarro to me.

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Speaker 2: It's really something. I think that part of the attacks

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Speaker 2: is he knows that it will please other people, Like

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Speaker 2: he knows that it's a crowd pleaser. When he cuts

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Speaker 2: down a reporter or when he goes out and he

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Speaker 2: says the things that he has said about his political opponents,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the stuff he has said about Biden. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've never seen a president say that kind of stuff

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Speaker 2: about a former president.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of understood that you don't even talk about

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Speaker 1: the person who is the sitting president. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: kind of standard operating procedure for former presidents to not

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Speaker 1: criticize the current administration, but also for the current administration

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Speaker 1: to not really criticize a past administration.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, we never see anything like this, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we never even see minor mild criticisms. And he's putting

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Speaker 2: the autopen on display in the in the colonade.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so creepy. And I'm sorry, I've kind

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Speaker 1: of gone beyond trying to be impartial here, Jonathan, because

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Speaker 1: his behavior is so beyond the pale. This autopen. So

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Speaker 1: he places presidential portraits along the hallway leading to the

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Speaker 1: Oval office, and the one he puts up of Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden is an autopen. It's so sophomoric, but it's also

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Speaker 1: so creepy, Right, I mean, what is that.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I did in the book is

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Speaker 2: I tried to really get to learn as much as

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Speaker 2: I could about the private interactions that Joe Biden had

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Speaker 2: with Donald Trump, and there were a number of them.

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Speaker 2: The first one was a phone call that made to

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Speaker 2: Trump the night of the shooting in Butler, and we

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Speaker 2: knew that that had happened, and they had both put

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Speaker 2: out statements. But I talked to two people who actually

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Speaker 2: overheard the phone conversation, and it was about five or

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Speaker 2: six minutes long. Trump was in his you know, in

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Speaker 2: his motor cade, headed out of Butler after he had

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Speaker 2: been to the hospital, and they spoke like they were

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Speaker 2: old friends, and you know a lot of Joe and

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Speaker 2: Donald and Joe and Donald and how are you? And

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Speaker 2: it's great, and I mean as friendly as you could

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Speaker 2: possibly be. And then they meet again right after the

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Speaker 2: election where Joe Biden is affording a courtesy to Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump that he never afforded to Joe Biden of welcoming

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Speaker 2: in the next president to the White House before the inauguration,

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Speaker 2: and they met, as you remember, for two and a

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Speaker 2: half hours, no cameras present in the Oval office. But

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Speaker 2: I describe what happens when he arrives and the Bidens

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Speaker 2: are waiting for him. There's no, Millennia. It's just Joe Biden.

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Speaker 2: But Jill and Joe are there in you know, in

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Speaker 2: that entrance near the diplomatic room and the residents of

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Speaker 2: the White House, and Trump comes out, and again I

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Speaker 2: talk to people who witnessed this, and he's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: such a beautiful couple. You're so beautiful, and they and

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Speaker 2: they pause, and they go and they take they pose

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Speaker 2: for pictures, and in one of the pictures in the book,

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Speaker 2: Joe and Jill and Donald all smiles, you know, next

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Speaker 2: to the White House, posing like they've been old friends.

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Speaker 2: They go in, they have that meeting. It's extraordinarily positive

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Speaker 2: and friendly, playing golf, toget we should play golf and

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Speaker 2: all this stuff. And if we weren't political opponents, you know,

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Speaker 2: we'd probably be really good friends. I described that limousine

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Speaker 2: ride that they took to the inauguration from the White

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Speaker 2: House on January twentieth, and kind of got inside the car. Again.

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Speaker 2: I can't. And then he says these things about him

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Speaker 2: in public, but so friendly, cordial, stay in touch. Let

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Speaker 2: me know if I can do anything for you. You've done

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Speaker 2: such great things. And you know, there you have what

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Speaker 2: he says in public.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think? And again, is it because it

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Speaker 1: plays well with his base? And have you talked to

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden since he left the White House at all?

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Speaker 2: John, I talked to him recently. I have to say

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Speaker 2: he was looking pretty good. He had just been through

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Speaker 2: his Did you see him, Yeah, I saw him. I

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Speaker 2: saw him in person.

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Speaker 3: Did you interview him?

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Speaker 2: No, I wasn't an interviewed. He was out to dinner

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Speaker 2: in Washington, d C. He went out to dinner with

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Speaker 2: a former Senator, Mark Pryor at Cafe Milano. Sat right

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Speaker 2: there in the dining room, right there in the dining room,

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Speaker 2: in front of everybody. I happened to be there. And

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Speaker 2: you know what else was there was Barack Obama. Oh

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Speaker 2: my god, dinner at Cafe Milano. But they didn't cross

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Speaker 2: paths And it was wild seeing the Secret Service. The

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Speaker 2: armored SUVs had to kind of like Biden's had to

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Speaker 2: move to make room for Obama's. They didn't interact. But

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Speaker 2: I went over and just had, you know, had a

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Speaker 2: few words with him, and.

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Speaker 1: They didn't interact at all. They were in the same restaurant.

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Speaker 1: What's what's their relationship? Like, that's weird that they do really.

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Speaker 2: Bad really really Yeah, Yeah, it's Biden and the people

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Speaker 2: around him very much blame Barack Obama for the effort

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Speaker 2: to push Biden out of the campaign. I had extensive

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Speaker 2: interviews with Hunter Biden for this book over the course

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Speaker 2: of the campaign and then after it was over, and

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Speaker 2: Hunter Biden is just, you know, he's got real anger

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Speaker 2: towards Barack Obama, and I think he's channeling not just Hunter,

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Speaker 2: but the Biden family. He believes that for instance, the

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Speaker 2: George Clooney op ed that was such a big moment

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Speaker 2: where Clooney.

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Speaker 3: Calls on right, you know, to step down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he says to me on the record, Hunter says,

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Speaker 2: do you really think that he would have done that

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Speaker 2: if Barack Obama didn't say it was okay? I mean,

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Speaker 2: do you really believe? And remember that moment at that

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Speaker 2: fundraiser in California where Obama basically leads Biden off the stage. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I do have another moment and went viral. Hunter describes

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Speaker 2: being there at that fundraiser and saying he wanted to

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Speaker 2: jump up on the stage and say you don't grab

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Speaker 2: the President of the United States like that. Nobody does,

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Speaker 2: I mean, really like angry, knowing that it would become

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Speaker 2: this moment, So it's not a good relationship. If they

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Speaker 2: had wanted to see each other, they absolutely would have.

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Speaker 2: They were not that far apart in the restaurant.

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Speaker 1: That's something, you know, former president and his vice president

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Speaker 1: who ultimately becomes president, not even speaking when they're at

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Speaker 1: the same restaurant. I wanted to ask you, and then

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Speaker 1: we'll get back to the BOOKI there's so many things

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about. But you know,

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Speaker 1: do you think that Joe Biden, or Hunter for that matter,

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Speaker 1: and Joe Biden's inner circle, take any responsibility for the

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Speaker 1: timing of his decision? And do you think they regret,

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Speaker 1: you know, his not being a one term president and

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Speaker 1: saying as much so the field could be open and

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Speaker 1: the best candidate could run against Donald Trump? Do they

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Speaker 1: have any regrets about that?

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Speaker 2: The honest answer is not really. I talked extensively with

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Speaker 2: Hunter about this, and I asked him, at you know,

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Speaker 2: what point was the decision made that he would run

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Speaker 2: for reelection? And he said to me, you know, we

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Speaker 2: never really made the decision. The machinery just went And

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Speaker 2: I talked to other people in Biden's inner circle about

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Speaker 2: how about at the White House. They never had a

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Speaker 2: single meeting where they said here are the pros and

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Speaker 2: cons about running again. It was never It was just

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Speaker 2: like on autopilot. I think that the regret that they

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Speaker 2: feel is that the party pushed him out and Kamala

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Speaker 2: Harris comes in and she lost. Biden himself has said

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Speaker 2: publicly that he believes that he could have won by

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Speaker 2: the way when he finally made that decision, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he calls Kamala Harris and says he's dropping out. And

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Speaker 2: I describe how Kamala Harris really pushes him to make

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Speaker 2: the endorsement immediately, which he ultimately does, you know, half

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Speaker 2: an hour after he announces he's dropping out. And there's

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Speaker 2: been a lot of talk about and reporting on how

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Speaker 2: Kamala Harris sat down and made over one hundred phone calls,

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Speaker 2: you know, to get people to support her campaign and

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Speaker 2: to get started. But Biden made a whole bunch of

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Speaker 2: phone calls that night too. You can imagine somebody his

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Speaker 2: whole career in politics. Now it is over, he's run

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Speaker 2: his last campaign. He calls the people that made it

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Speaker 2: possible for him to be president, thanks them, encourages most

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Speaker 2: of them to support Kamala Harris. I was astounded to

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Speaker 2: hear that one person he did not call was Barack Obama,

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Speaker 2: the person that really made it possible for him to

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Speaker 2: be president by making a vice president. He didn't call him.

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Speaker 2: Then Obama did call. I learned to talk to Biden.

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Speaker 2: He didn't take the call, and the two of them

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Speaker 2: did not speak for weeks. They eventually spoke right before

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Speaker 2: the convention, but can you imagine, I mean literally not

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Speaker 2: taking the call.

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Speaker 1: Oncologists are often the central guide for patients and families

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Speaker 1: facing a cancer diagnosis. Let's hear a bit more about

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Speaker 1: what they specifically do, how they support patients and families,

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Speaker 1: and why their work matters so deeply. Joining me to

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Speaker 1: talk about the role of oncologists is doctor Monica Shaw.

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Speaker 1: She is Senior vice president of Global Oncology Commercialization at

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Speaker 1: Bristol Meyers Squab.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Katie so much for having me here today

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Speaker 4: to discuss this important topic. It's really incredible to think

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Speaker 4: that a single oncologist will probably have to give that

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Speaker 4: bad news twenty thousand times in their career. It's important

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Speaker 4: to remember that it's not just the bad news that

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Speaker 4: they give that they're often also responsible for letting people

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Speaker 4: know about those additional precious moments of time that people

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Speaker 4: will be able to spend with their friends and family.

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Speaker 1: I read that in the mid nineteen seventies, the five

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Speaker 1: year relative survival rate for all cancers combined was about

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Speaker 1: forty nine percent, and it's increased to around sixty nine

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Speaker 1: percent in recent years, and that's why.

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Speaker 4: We're really excited to bring this new campaign time Back.

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Speaker 4: It's important to recognize that they're also part of the

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Speaker 4: positive moments of the journey.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Monica Shap thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: So, Katie. If you or your videos would like to

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Speaker 4: learn more, please come and visit us at BMS dot

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Speaker 4: com slash time back and you can learn more there

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Speaker 4: about our commitments oncologists and the time back that they

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Speaker 4: potentially can give to patients.

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Speaker 1: As we've heard, oncologist's work extends far beyond medicine. It's

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Speaker 1: about the valuable time and key life moments they can

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Speaker 1: help give back, and they deserve our deepest gratitude. Time

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Speaker 1: is the greatest gift we can give and receive. As

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Speaker 1: we turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers SQUIB

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Speaker 1: is recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary more time.

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Speaker 1: The Time Back campaign celebrates those everyday heroes who are

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Speaker 1: working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping get patients

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Speaker 1: more time to experience key moments like seeing a child

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Speaker 1: learned to ride a bike or a long awaited vacation.

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Speaker 1: As we turn back our clocks, let's pause to thank

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Speaker 1: the doctors who make a difference every day. Discover more

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Speaker 1: about the Time Back Campaign and join Bristol Myers squib

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Speaker 1: and celebrating the physicians who give the gift of more

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Speaker 1: time at BMS dot com slash time back. Let's get

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Speaker 1: back to Donald Trump, though, because that's how your book

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Speaker 1: is about retribution, And the first chapter is called Felon

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Speaker 1: and front Runner, And you spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: John at the courthouse in New York covering Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: hush money trial. Tell us why you believe this really

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Speaker 1: solidified his retribution mindset, that whole court case, and if

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Speaker 1: you think that was a legitimate case against Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: because it's now been massaged into a specious trial by

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Speaker 1: his supporters and something that shows what a crook he

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Speaker 1: was by those who oppose him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So on the first thing, on how it solidified

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Speaker 2: his retribution. You have to realize that for six weeks

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Speaker 2: he was compelled to be and sit in that courtroom silently,

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Speaker 2: four days a week, courts not in session on Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: four days a week. He has to go to one

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Speaker 2: hundred Center Street in Lower Manhattan. It is a dingy, dark,

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Speaker 2: dirty courthouse that hasn't been renovated, you know, in decades,

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Speaker 2: hasn't It looks like it hasn't been had a deep

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Speaker 2: cleaning in decades. I described when I walked in, the

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Speaker 2: first thing I noticed is there's this big frickin' rat trap,

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Speaker 2: you know those plastic rat traps. By the front entrance.

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Speaker 2: There are signs that say warning, you know, asbestos, the

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Speaker 2: flickering fluorescent lights, the dirty marble, you know floors, the

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Speaker 2: elevators that are kind of dysfunctional, and sometimes you have

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Speaker 2: to take two elevators because one bank isn't working, And

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Speaker 2: he has to go there. He has to stand at

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Speaker 2: attention when the judge enters the room. He has to

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Speaker 2: sit there through deeply embarrassing testimony. Stormy Daniels talking about

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Speaker 2: their interaction, Michael Cohen saying, you know, his former fixer saying,

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Speaker 2: the most horrible things about him. He has to sit

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Speaker 2: there and cannot leave. He's technically under arrest. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he was hell bent on retribution before. He wanted not

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Speaker 2: just to come back to be president again. He wanted

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Speaker 2: to get even at those who he felt had betrayed him,

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Speaker 2: those that had gone after him. But now, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it just it's burning in him every day. And look,

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Speaker 2: in terms of that case, it was a bizarre case.

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Speaker 2: Let's be honest, it wasn't totally bizarre case. What were

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Speaker 2: they prosecuting him for. It wasn't for the hush money itself.

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Speaker 2: It was for it was I mean, he called it

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Speaker 2: for an accounting issue, and in a way it really was.

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Speaker 2: It was he paid her one hundred and thirty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing illegal about paying hush money, but they said no, no,

433
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, there's absolutely nothing as long as

434
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 2: you're you know, you account for it properly. The issue

435
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: was that he accounted for his illegal expense because it

436
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: was Michael Cohen that physically made the payment, and he's

437
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: reimbursing Michael Cohen for it. And the argument that they're

438
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 2: making is it was basically a campaign expense, So he's

439
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: violating campaign finance laws as well as having a fraudulent

440
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 2: accounting by not saying what it really was because it

441
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: was done so it wouldn't hurt his campaign, so the

442
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: revelation wouldn't come out and hurt his campaign. Look, I mean,

443
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 2: this is a guy that has been indicted for pilfering

444
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: the nation's most sensitive military secrets from the White House,

445
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: and for leaving him around the bathroom and ballroom at

446
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: mar A Lago, and for talking about classified information with

447
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: you know, an Australian buddy at the club, and for

448
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: a journalist and for one of his I mean, he's

449
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 2: a guy that is charged, indicted for overturning American democracy,

450
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: and he's on trial for improperly accounting for hush money

451
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: to a porn star. I mean, whatever, even if you

452
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: think it's an okay case, it pales insignificance.

453
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 3: But he was found guilty, right, I mean, I.

454
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: Mean, he was convicted. He was found guilty. I'm just

455
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: saying because it was such a bizarre case and hard

456
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: for the public really to understand why this was being done,

457
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: it was easier to make himself out to be a victim.

458
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: And he's not being held accountable for the far more

459
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: serious alleged crimes that he committed as president of the

460
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: United States.

461
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: You know, I know that the seeds of his retribution

462
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: fixation were planted even earlier, you write, after his lonely

463
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: departure from the White House in twenty twenty one, Trump

464
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: was detested by elites of all kinds. In the world

465
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: of politics, yes, but also in business, law, academia, and media.

466
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: Hatred of those elites quickly became the driving force of

467
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: Trump's twenty twenty four campaign. I think it's really interesting

468
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: because I think all his life, or his adult life,

469
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: he has felt like an outsider. I think, you know,

470
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: as somebody who's lived in New York for decades now,

471
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: he was always seen as kind of rich and full

472
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: of himself and kind of a harmless buffoon I would say,

473
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: by sort of the upper crust of New York society.

474
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: But he was never really welcomed into that group. You know,

475
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: he was always a bit.

476
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: He was the guy from Queens. He was the yeah,

477
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: the guy was trying to make it in Manhattan from Queens.

478
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: But how did that bitterness and resentment fuel him, particularly

479
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: during this second campaign and now the second term of

480
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: his presidency.

481
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: I mean, it was the driving force, and it really

482
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: propelled him to run for office again. And you remember

483
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: he announced he was running for president in twenty twenty two,

484
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 2: a week after Republicans suffered a series of losses in

485
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: midterm elections that were blamed on Trump and his own

486
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: advisors were telling him wait, just let the dust settle,

487
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 2: and he charged the head because he was so focused

488
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: on proving those people wrong. Think about how he left

489
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 2: the White House, not just the fact that he tried

490
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: so hard to overturn the election. You know, looked like

491
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: a sore loser, condemned by the leaders in his own party,

492
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: the impeachment, the Senate trial, all of that. But it's

493
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 2: more than that. He was banished from Twitter. He was

494
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: banned from Instagram and Facebook. The leaders of the nation's

495
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: most of the biggest corporations, had most of them, almost

496
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: all of them, who give political donations, announced that they

497
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: would not be donating to any candidate who had supported

498
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's effort to overturn the election. Law firms he

499
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: was facing the legal trials the nation's top law firms

500
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 2: refused to represent him. Todd blanche who you know, did

501
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: you know take up, you know, become basically his lead

502
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: counsel in that hush money case and also in the

503
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: federal cases. Todd Blanche was with a top you know,

504
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: Manhattan firm, and he he had to leave the firm

505
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: go out on his own to represent Donald Trump. So yeah,

506
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: he sees all of these people, not just the Democrats,

507
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: not just the prosecutors that you know brought the cases

508
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: against him, but all those other people who you know,

509
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: try to banish him, cancel him, if you want to

510
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: use that term. He's hell bents on getting back at

511
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: them and proving them wrong. And if they're going to

512
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: come back and right the wrong, he'll bring them back.

513
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: To Jenny like right, all the tech titans. Jenuflecting right, there.

514
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: Was a moment during the campaign where he actually speculated

515
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: that Mark Zuckerbrook should go to prison. You know, now

516
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg's a somewhat regular guest at mar A Lago

517
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: in the White House.

518
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: How would you compare the two terms so far? I mean,

519
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: obviously you talk about the first term is remarkably ephemeral,

520
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: which you can explain what that means, and the second term,

521
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: as we all know, is shaping up to be far

522
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: more radical and consequential. So can you talk a little bit,

523
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: John about your observations on the first term versus the second.

524
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure it's about the people he surrounded

525
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: himself with. He was, as you write, seeking legitimacy in

526
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: his first term and now only cares about his loyalty.

527
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's part of it, and there's a

528
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: lot more to it. I mean, I was there at

529
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: the White House. I was actually ended up being president

530
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: of the White House Corresponds Association while he's president. I

531
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: was obviously there for ABC covering day in and day out.

532
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: It was constant activity, just like it is today. The

533
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: eyes of the world seem to be on that White House,

534
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: I think, to a greater extent than even they are today.

535
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: I think today a lot of people avert their gaze

536
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: and they're sick of it, you know, they and they

537
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: try to pretend it's not happening and art. But at

538
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: that moment, everybody was like, what's going to happen? As won?

539
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: And it was constant activity, chaos. I wrote you that

540
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: first book I wrote was called Front wrote the Trump

541
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: Show because I believe that he saw the presidency as

542
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: the world's greatest reality show and he was programming it.

543
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: I said, he was the star. He was the executive producer,

544
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: he was the publicist, he was the spokesperson for the

545
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: Trump Show, and he did put together amazing spectacles. It

546
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: kept the attention on the White House. I think the

547
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: greatest was probably when he met with Kim Jong un

548
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: in Singapore. I mean, this guy that had been the

549
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: great pariah and no American president had ever met, and

550
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: he's like welcoming him as his buddy in Singapore. But

551
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: none of it had any lasting impact, I don't think.

552
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: I mean, there were a few things in his first

553
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: term and a few accomplishments. The Abraham Accords probably the

554
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: one over writing big accomplishment. But for the most part,

555
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: Biden comes in and all the stuff that happened, all

556
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: that attention, all that it's just like gone. Now he's

557
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: coming in, and I think he's really sensing something he

558
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: didn't see before, which is his own mortality, and he

559
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: wants to change the world, not just be the center

560
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: of attention. That's why he's building a you know, ninety

561
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: thousand square foot ballroom at the White House. That's why

562
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: he's desperate to get the Nobel Peace Prize. That's why

563
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: he's transforming much of the rest of the whitouse. He

564
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: wants people to confront the fact that he's there and

565
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: the world is not going to be the same because

566
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: he was there. He's changing the world, and a big

567
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: part of it is what you mentioned. He had people

568
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: with real credentials that were around him, even the non

569
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: traditional people. Rex Tillerson was the Secretary of State, very

570
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: unusual choice for secretary of State, but he've been the

571
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: CEO of x on Mobile. This is a serious guy, right,

572
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: Jeff Sessions, you know, he was a judge. He was

573
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: an influential senator, very influential senator, General Madis, General Madis

574
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: at the Pentagon, General Kelly at the Department of Helmand Security,

575
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: four star Marines would star you know, I mean really,

576
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: but every one of those people, in Trump's mind, betrayed him.

577
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: So he didn't give a damn about credentials. In the

578
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: same way when he's putting together his administration this time,

579
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: he cares about loyalty and that makes him. I make

580
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: the case, and I think it's absolutely True's why I

581
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: make it that he's the most powerful president that we

582
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: have had in the modern era because he's empowered by

583
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: a Supreme Court decision that says that essentially he can't

584
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: be prosecuted.

585
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: I mean you say powerful. Other people might say unchecked, unchecked.

586
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair because he's not checked in the same

587
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: way by the courts, although I mean he is checked

588
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: to a degree by the courts. And by the way,

589
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: watch what happens at the Supreme Court on tariffs, because

590
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: he is taking and seizing power that he actually doesn't

591
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: have under the Constitution. And one of the biggest examples

592
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: of that is he's just imposing terrorifts left and right.

593
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: Congress has the power to impose taxes and do it the.

594
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: Power of the purse, right, but Congress has become the

595
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: weakest branch of the government.

596
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: It's I mean, Steve Bannon the other day said that

597
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: the US Congress is like the Russian Duma. Trumps just

598
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: operated through executive power, executive orders, and when he's had

599
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 2: to go through Congress. Although now we're in the midst

600
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: of a shutdown, we'll see where this goes. But the

601
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 2: Republicans have, with the exception of like two or three

602
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: people out of you know, uh, and the House and

603
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 2: the Senate have just done whatever he wants.

604
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: There are a few that have spoken out against tariffs, right,

605
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: a handful of Republicans in Congress.

606
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: But he's done it without He's bypassed Congress to do that.

607
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: So is the Supreme Court going to say to him?

608
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: Are they going to rule that no, those tariffs are unconstitutional?

609
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 2: I think, Katie, there's a real possibility that they do,

610
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 2: and that'll be a game changing moment for Trump. I mean,

611
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: think about all the time he has. I mean, first,

612
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: all these talked about tariffs. Now he calls them so

613
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: central and it's not just an instrument of like managing trade,

614
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: but it's an instrument of foreign policy. It's an instrument

615
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 2: of retribution for him, punishing Brazil, rewarding his friends. So

616
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: imagine if that gets taken away and undone. And I

617
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: think there's a real possibility it will be even this

618
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 2: Supreme Court.

619
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious when you look at those cabinet

620
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: meetings that are sprayed by the White House pool. You

621
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: see them going around the table just gushing about Trump,

622
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 1: every single one of them. I mean, it's so grotesque,

623
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: but it's also just so weird to me that none

624
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: of these people is embarrassed or ashamed or uncomfortable with

625
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: having to fawn all over him. It's just so weird.

626
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: I mean, having covered you've covered many administrations. I'm older

627
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: than you are, so I've been around even longer, and

628
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: it's just so bizarre to me that they think this

629
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: is palatable. I mean, don't you ever think or does

630
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: nothing ever surprise you at this point.

631
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: Remember the very first cabinet meeting he had in twenty seventeen,

632
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 2: and they went around the table and gushed and praised

633
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: about him. General Mattis, who you mentioned, was one of

634
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: the few Kelly too, by the way, that didn't do that.

635
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: He praised the troops, you know, he's Defense Secretary, and

636
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: he talked about the greatness of American service members. But

637
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: he later told me much much longer after that, he

638
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: had a feeling at that very first cabinet meeting in

639
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen that was like it was North Korea vibes.

640
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: It was like the way, you know, Kim Jong un

641
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: is likely to be greeted when he convenes the North

642
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: Korean Polet Bureau. But it's gotten much more so since

643
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: that first I mean, there's a picture that I put

644
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: in the Book of the very first Trump cabinet meeting.

645
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: This time he walks in that the cabinet is already

646
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 2: seated and the picture has taken place as he walks

647
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: into the cabinet room and they all stand and they're

648
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 2: all applauding him. They're applauding him. I mean, you actually,

649
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: John Kennedy, like being President Kennedy being applauded or I mean,

650
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: but by his own cabinet. I mean, is your meeting

651
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 2: to talk about, like your agenda? But you know, it's

652
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: not just his cabinet. It's it's when he's meeting with

653
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 2: congressional leaders, it's when he's meeting with foreign leaders. They

654
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: watch what happened as Zelenski. It's all preceded by how

655
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: wonderful he is.

656
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: Tell me what you think are some of the biggest

657
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: scoops in the book, John, I know you have a

658
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: number of them. Tell us more about Christino. Is she

659
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: a couple with Corey Lewandowski? I mean, what's going on

660
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 1: with those two?

661
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: I'll have to leave others to answer to that question.

662
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: They certainly have a very close relationship.

663
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 3: Isn't Christino married or am I?

664
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: They both are married and not to each other, so,

665
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: but but yeah, this was that there was a member

666
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: of Trump's transition team who was totally surprised when Trump announced.

667
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 2: He often surprises the people that work for him when

668
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: he announced he put out the statement that Christy nom

669
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 2: was going to be his choice for homeland security. And

670
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: this person just asked him, so, why did you decide

671
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 2: to do that? And his answer was, I did it

672
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: for Corey. It's the only thing he asked for. You know,

673
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: Corey was his first campaign manager. He just asked for

674
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: one thing, just one thing. I mean, you know, it's

675
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: got to give it to him. And Steve Bannon speaks

676
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: to me on the record, and I sat down for

677
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: an extensive interview with Steve Bannon two days after Christy

678
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: Nome was announced as Trump's choice for homeland security, and

679
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: he was exasperated. This is all on the record. I

680
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: actually put the sound of the interview because Bannon is

681
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: so riled up telling me this in the audiobook, and

682
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: he says, what you're gonna there's no experience whatsoever. She's

683
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 2: going to be in charge of, the of the War

684
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 2: on Terror, the Secret Service, on the border she's gonna

685
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 2: be in charge of, but all are you kidding me?

686
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: And the interesting thing and very revealing thing is that Bannon,

687
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 2: although he is furious at this announcement, he doesn't blame

688
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: Trump who made the announcement. He blames Corey Lwandowski. He says,

689
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: you know, that was irresponsible of him to ask Trump

690
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: to do this. But in terms of the scoops in

691
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: the books, first of all, I believe the book is

692
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: much more than the kind of collection of the of

693
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: the scoops there's but there was a lot of new

694
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: reporting that, you know, a lot of things that I

695
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: learned as I went back to try to get answers

696
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: that I couldn't get in real time as the events

697
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: were happening. And I spent a great deal of time

698
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: deconstructing the transition that period where Trump is operating almost

699
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 2: exclusively out of mar A Lago, which is a you've

700
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: been there. I believe you. You've been to mar A Lago,

701
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: haven't you.

702
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 3: I went to his wedding John right, so you.

703
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 2: Know, so you know how small it is. I mean,

704
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: it's not a very big place. It's a private club.

705
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: It doesn't have office space. There's one office it's his,

706
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: But it's not the kind of place that you can

707
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 2: run a big, complex presidential transition. They had a place

708
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 2: to do that in West Palm Beach, a couple miles away.

709
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: But everybody knew that the only thing that was ultimately

710
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: going to matter is what Trump himself was doing. So

711
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: mar A Lago became this like crossroads at the center

712
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: of the political universe. So I describe some just to

713
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: me like mind blowing scenes of these would be want

714
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: to be cabinet secretaries and other people that wanted jobs

715
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: in the administration coming and trying to get time with

716
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: the King, trying to get time with Trump, and the

717
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: way it was all operating, you know mar A Lago

718
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: when you're going basically the lobby is a place they

719
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: call the living room, and there's a couch there and

720
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: a couple of chairs, and you have all these people

721
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: waiting for their time to come in to talk to Trump.

722
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: There was an attorney general candidate, There was a candidate

723
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: for Secretary of Energy. Pete Hegseth was sitting there. You know,

724
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: Cash Bettel's kind of running around back and forth hoping

725
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: to get a little bit of time FaceTime with Trump.

726
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 2: All these things are happening, and one of the potential

727
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: cabinet Secretaries that was there, sees Pete Hegseth and says,

728
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: oh god, I guess Trump's getting interviewed by you know,

729
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: the Fox Weekend news anchor. And little did anybody know,

730
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: Like later, you know, the next day, we learned that

731
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: he's the choice for Secretary of Defense. So a lot

732
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,479
Speaker 2: of the description of that incredible transition on like any

733
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: we had ever seen, I think is an important part

734
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 2: of the book.

735
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

736
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

737
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up up for our daily newsletter,

738
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Do

739
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: you worry that people are just odd on this? As

740
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: you mentioned, some people are just tuning out? I mean,

741
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: there have been many books written about Donald Trump. He

742
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: never ceases to frustrate a maze and infuriate people. And

743
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 1: at some point, do you worry that A I think

744
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: as a news person, as a journalist, that people will

745
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: stop paying attention and b that they're not going to

746
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: really want to read this book.

747
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: Look, I felt it was absolutely essential. I didn't plan

748
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: to write another book until really when Biden dropped out.

749
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: I was like, I need to write about this campaign.

750
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: It's the most extraordinary, unpredictable, twists and turns campaign that

751
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: we had ever seen in our lifetimes. I think you

752
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: have to go back to me nineteen twelve to find

753
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: something close. When you know Teddy Roosevelt stormed out of

754
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 2: the Republican Convention and started the Bull Moose Party. I mean,

755
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: but this is like a incredible series of events and

756
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: I wanted to document it for history because I knew

757
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: that I had access to some of the key players

758
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: in a way that really nobody else did or very

759
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: few people did, and I wanted to for myself. I

760
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: wanted to kind of get an understanding of what happened.

761
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: But yes, the short answer is absolutely, I worry that

762
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: people have largely tuned out. They're exhausted with it all.

763
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 2: We're a decade into this now, a decade into the

764
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: Trump era, and you know, I hope people read the

765
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: book because I think it's an important record of how

766
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 2: we got to where we are and what is at

767
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: stake going forward. But I know that a lot of

768
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: people are going to say I've heard too much. I'm

769
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: just going to ignore it all. But you know, what

770
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: we can't ignore it all.

771
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: Let's talk about for the last few minutes we have

772
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: John about the future. We're doing this interview on election Day.

773
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: There's some key races going on which might provide some

774
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: insight on how the electorate is feeling about Donald Trump

775
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: at the moment, especially with races in New York City

776
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: the mayor race. We've got Mikey, Cheryl and Abigail Spanberger

777
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: who are favored to win in New Jersey and Virginia, respectively.

778
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: And I'm curious, do you have any sense at this point, John,

779
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: about the mood of the electorate and the enthusiasm for

780
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, even among his magabase.

781
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 2: There's clearly anxiety in the country about the state of

782
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: the economy, which was a big part of what got

783
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: him elected, the rejection of Biden. It was for several reasons.

784
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't part of it was his age.

785
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: Part of it was the failure in Afghanistan. Part of

786
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 2: it was the mess at the border. But a big

787
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 2: driving force it was a drag on Kamala harris Is

788
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 2: inflation and the state of the economy.

789
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: And insisting the economy was doing well by the numbers,

790
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: but as people had pointed out. It's more of a feeling,

791
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: kind of the same thing as crime and safety. If

792
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: no matter what you're being told, if you don't feel

793
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: it to be the case, it just doesn't resonate. So

794
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 1: the economy and people feel like the economy hasn't really improved.

795
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: In fact, for so many of his voters and people

796
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: who supported him, it's gotten much worse, right, I mean,

797
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: look at farmers and soybean farmers and the impact tariffs

798
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: are having and inflation, et cetera, et cetera. So do

799
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: you think he's starting to wear thin amongst some of

800
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: his folks.

801
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: I think that you're clearly seeing that in the polls.

802
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 2: He still is popular among the overwhelming majority of Republican voters,

803
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: but there is growing economic anxiety. And I think that

804
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 2: his obsession with retribution and his obsession with what seem

805
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 2: to be trivial things like changing the White House all

806
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: the gold at the White House, tearing down the East

807
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 2: Wing at a time when Americans are wondering if they

808
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: have enough money to feed their families, are wondering about

809
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: the strength of their jobs. We the unemployment rate is

810
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: still low, but there's so much anxiety about you know,

811
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: major companies, you know, announcing large number of layoffs and AI.

812
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: What AI does to the job market? How many jobs

813
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: does it? Does it eat away? You know, the federal employees,

814
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: you know what's happened to them, So I you know,

815
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: not to mention this, this government shutdown that Republicans are

816
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: blaming on Democrats. And they've got an argument that it

817
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: was Democrats that caused the shutdown. I mean, I don't

818
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 2: think many people really care about that argument, but they

819
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: care about what it means to their lives. And you've

820
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,280
Speaker 2: got millions of people that are on SNAP, that depend

821
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: on food stamps to feed their families. A lot of

822
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 2: those are Republicans, by the way.

823
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: That's why I don't understand John Lake. He does this

824
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty million dollar renovation, He renovates the

825
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 1: Lincoln bathroom right with all marble and gold, and these

826
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: constant displays of ostentatiousness, if that's the right word, and

827
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, having a great gatsfee party at mar A

828
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: Lago the weekend SNAP benefits run out. And I'm just

829
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: curious why even MAGA voters don't see that as a

830
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: bit of a disconnect. How can he convey that he

831
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: still really cares about the working class or people who

832
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: are struggling in the country, and yet display all these

833
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: constant signs of ostentatious wealth and spending on things that

834
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: really don't help people but are really just self angrandizing.

835
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 2: It's a great question, and I have to say one

836
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: of the unique things about Trump is that where most politicians,

837
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: even very wealthy ones, and we've had very wealthy people

838
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: become President of the United States, become senator, become you know, governors,

839
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 2: try to hide their wealth or deemphasize it and try

840
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 2: to act like a regular person, regular man, regular woman,

841
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: even when they're multimillionaires, billionaires. Trump never did any of that.

842
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: I remember when he was first running and he goes

843
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: to the Iowa State Fair. This is where you eat

844
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 2: the corn dogs and you show you're just like everybody else.

845
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: And what does he do. He brings his helicopter with

846
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: the big Trump sign on, you know, in blazon, and

847
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 2: gives helicopter rides to the kids. I mean, he he

848
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 2: never tried to pretend that he wasn't. I mean, if anything,

849
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: he was pretending to be richer than he was. And

850
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 2: his people, who are largely you know, working class Americans

851
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: struggling drawn to him because they feel like they've not

852
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: been served well by the political elites in both parties.

853
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: You know, we're drawn to him. And part of his

854
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: argument was I became super rich. I did it all

855
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 2: for myself. Now I'm going to do it for you.

856
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to do it for the country. So I

857
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: think there's still a little bit of that in the

858
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 2: psychology of his supporters. He's doing greatness. He's doing it

859
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 2: on behalf of America. He's going to have this big ballroom,

860
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: it's going to be all of ours. He's going to

861
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: big the big, the big arc Da trailmph that he's

862
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 2: going to put, you know, by the Lincoln Memorial. You

863
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 2: know this greatness. He's doing it now for America. And

864
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 2: even as you're struggling to figure out, you know, how

865
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: you're going to make ends meet, a lot of them

866
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 2: will be there and will be there until his dying

867
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: days and their dying days.

868
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: I'd love you to just end by talking about the future.

869
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that this was about the campaign,

870
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 1: but as we look ahead at the mid terms, John,

871
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: and especially at this kind of quid pro quo redistricting

872
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: fight that we see unfolding all the country. The last

873
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: I heard is going to be a net gain for

874
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: the Republicans in terms of additional House seats. How do

875
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: you see the mid term shaking out. It's probably hard

876
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: to predict, I'm sure, but yeah, tell us a little

877
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: bit about what you're seeing in the country, what you're

878
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: seeing in races, and what you believe may in fact happening,

879
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 1: especially with this whole redistricting thing layer added to the mix.

880
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, the redistricting could make it possible for the Republicans.

881
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 3: To hold on to the House well, to hold.

882
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: Like about ten seats or so that, you know, to

883
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: get squeeze an extra ten districts that would go from

884
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: being Democratic to being you know, majority Republican. You know

885
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: across Texas, Indiana, you know, North Carolina, Florida, I mean Florida.

886
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: The're probably not going to pull off, but they're trying

887
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 2: in every you know, in every state where they can.

888
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 2: California is the only state where Democrats are able to

889
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: to squeeze some seats themselves. And that's well.

890
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: Now the other states are looking into it, right Virginia,

891
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: New York. I just watched a piece done by the

892
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: New York Times and I think that's not right. California

893
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: is not the only one, is it.

894
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,359
Speaker 2: Well, it's likely to be the only one that can

895
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 2: pull it off. In New York, there's a real question

896
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: about whether or not they can do it. In Virginia's

897
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 2: a real question about what yes. So they've got barriers

898
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 2: in all those states that are going to be very

899
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: hard to overcome. And the one place, depending on how

900
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: the voting goes in California, where they can actually do it,

901
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: where they will have a green light to do it,

902
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 2: is California. And the others, I mean, we'll see how

903
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: it plays out. They're running out of time to be

904
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 2: able to do it in Virginia and in New York.

905
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 2: But look, he has not done well for Republicans when

906
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 2: he is not on the ballot. In twenty twenty two,

907
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 2: Republicans held the House, but they lost a whole bunch

908
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: of seats, and they lost a lot of, you know,

909
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: Senate seats that they thought they were going to win.

910
00:51:55,719 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 2: They lost governorships in twenty eighteen. You know, Republicans got

911
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 2: hammered while Trump was in the White House.

912
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: That's pretty predictable, right, Usually they do get hammered in

913
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: the midterms. But what do you think is going to

914
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: happen next year for the mid terms? Now you mentioned

915
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: the redistricting, right, yeah, Is it going to be a

916
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: huge shellacking? Is Arack Obama? I believe said right after.

917
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 2: His forty year I said, after a twenty ten or

918
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 2: was it twenty fourteen? He got shlacked twice Obama, It's

919
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 2: very predictable that happens. What the redistioning does is it

920
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: makes the playing field much smaller. There are fewer seats

921
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 2: that Democrats can really compete for to win. But I'll

922
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 2: just tell you what I asked Gavin Newsom about this,

923
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 2: because Gavin Newsom is obviously the one that is pushing

924
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 2: to make the change in California to counter what's happened

925
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: in Texas and elsewhere. And I asked Gavin Newsom basically

926
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 2: the question you're asking me, which is, do you need

927
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 2: to win this ballot issue of this Prop fifty? Do

928
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 2: you need to do this in California for the Democrats

929
00:52:58,320 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: to have a chance of holding onto the House?

930
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 3: And his answer, you mean getting back the House.

931
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: Getting back the House or getting back the House. And

932
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: he said, actually no, he thinks that there will be

933
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 2: such a wave of election that the five extra seats

934
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: that they squeeze out of California, assuming they do, will

935
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 2: be a footnote. So who knows. But Trump's approval rating

936
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: in this latest CNN poll is lower than it had

937
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: ever been, even in the darkest moments of his first term.

938
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 2: An incumbent with economic headwinds, with anxiety in the country,

939
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 2: as unpopular as he is in that poll. If that remains,

940
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 2: you know, all the redistricting in the world might not

941
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 2: be enough to hold the tide. So we'll see. And

942
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 2: I think that this election, you know, Virginia, New Jersey,

943
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: New York, will be a bit of a leading indicator

944
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 2: of where the party and where the where the Congress

945
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: is going to go next year in the midterms.

946
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: And the big question I guess is also, will Democrats

947
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 1: be able to get their act together and provide a

948
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: compelling vision for the country instead of being the anti

949
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: Trump party?

950
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right now, They're a long way from doing that.

951
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 3: I love talking to you.

952
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I could talk to you about this stuff

953
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: all daye Jean, preferably next time over a vodka martini

954
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: at Cafe Milano. But the book is called Retribution Donald

955
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,919
Speaker 1: Trump and the campaign that changed America. Ah, so much

956
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: to talk about, and God bless you for covering this

957
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: day in and day out, because honestly, I'd want to

958
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: blow my brains out at some point.

959
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 2: Katie. It's awesome to talk to you and I look

960
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: forward to seeing you in person soon.

961
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, And good luck with the book and

962
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: keep up the good work because God knows. I'm paying attention,

963
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,399
Speaker 1: John to everything you write and talk about, and I

964
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: hope most Americans are because I don't think I've lived

965
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: through a time where it's more important to really understand

966
00:54:59,200 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: what's going on.

967
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 3: I wasn't around in nineteen twelve. I covered Teddy Rose.

968
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: Great race to cover though, yeah it would have been

969
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: but enough excitement just covering this administration.

970
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 3: John, Thanks again, and I hope to see you soon.

971
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie.

972
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

973
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

974
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

975
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

976
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

977
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

978
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

979
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

980
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

981
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

982
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,720
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

983
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: us at Katiecouric dot com. You can also find me

984
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,799
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985
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986
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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Time is the

987
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Speaker 1: greatest gift we can give and receive. As we turn

988
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers Squib is recognizing

989
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Speaker 1: on cologists who help give patients something extraordinary, more time.

990
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 1: The Time Back campaign celebrates those everyday heroes who are

991
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Speaker 1: working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping get patients

992
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Speaker 1: more time to experience key moments like seeing a child

993
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Speaker 1: learned to ride a bike or a long awaited vacation.

994
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: As we turn back our clocks, let's pause to thank

995
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,239
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996
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: about the Time Back campaign and join Bristol Myers squib

997
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:00,959
Speaker 1: and celebrating the physicians who give the gift of more

998
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