1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: When you say second chances, I tell people I don't 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: believe in second chances. And I pause. You don't believe 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: in second chances? What you're in this position for it, 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: you don't believe in second chances. I come to understand 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: that they need better chances. You can give them a second, third, fourth, 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: ninety times and they'll keep going to prison. Why because 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: some of them never had a first chance. 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney, 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: inner city Memphis. And the last part it unintentionally led 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: to an oscar for the film about our team called Undefeated. Guys. 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: I believe our country's problems will never be solved by 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: words that nobody else uses on CNN and Fox, but 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: rather an army of normal folks, US just you and 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 2: me deciding, Hey, I can help. That's what Lee Robbins, 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: the voice we just heard, has done. This pastor and 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 2: businessman never expected to find himself in prison, and yet 20 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 2: there he was, And so he decided to dive in 21 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 2: serving the minds and souls of the men around him, 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: and when he got out, he then started a re 23 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: entry program called Vital Signs, which has helped over eighteen 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: hundred returning citizens and boast a recidivism rate of only 25 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: two percent. In my favorite part, this model of his 26 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: it's self sustaining. I cannot wait for you to meet 27 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: Pastor Lee right after these brief messages from ours ander sponsors, 28 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: And I'm gonna tell you guys something you know who 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: likely won't be a sponsor of an army of normal 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: folks is Regius. We rented a space at the office 31 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: rental company to do this very interview, but their employee 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: was late and wasn't there to open the office for 33 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: us to do the interview, so we had to move. 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: The worst part about not showing up is they also 35 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: refused to refund our reservation that they never made happen. 36 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: The only reason I'm telling you this is when we moved. 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: We moved to a hotel across the street, and we 38 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: actually recorded this interview in a public space there, which 39 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: obviously has people in it, so during the interview you 40 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: might hear people walking around to the background. Occasionally it 41 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: doesn't happen too often. But if you hear that, it's 42 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: not Alex the producer adding in some kind of weird 43 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 2: background noise for effect. It's actually people walking around. But 44 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: thanks to Regis, that's the best opportunity we had to 45 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: complete our interview. And if Regis is still listening, happy 46 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: to take the refund and the rest of us we'll 47 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: get back to the episode. Lee Robbins, what's up? 48 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: What's up? What's up? Is just I'm here with you, man. 49 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: Man, I've were in Atlanta. We'll get to what you're 50 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: doing and what you've been doing for sure. But where'd 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: you grow up? Where are you from? 52 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm all the way from Agetown, Houston, Texas. 53 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 2: Houston, Texas. 54 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the ghettos of Houston, Texas. Tell me about 55 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: the ghettos. What Ward it's actually the South Park is 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: next to Third Ward. You've probably known the Astrodome, sure, 57 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: all right, So it's right down the road from the 58 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: astrodown right, And it is a place where it's heavy poverty. 59 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's really a ghetto, ghetto place. It's Compton. 60 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: It's kind of. 61 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: The Compton of Houston. 62 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: Yes, siblings, Yeah, I got two brothers and two sisters, five. 63 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: Of us, five of you, and mom and dad at home. 64 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: Actually, Mom raised five kids as a maid. Where dad 65 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: go Dad? They divorced when I was four and Dad 66 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: was doing his thing, you know, and my mom was 67 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: forced to raise the me and my siblings, you. 68 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: Know, and. 69 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: Very tough, very tough time. You know, no transportation for her. 70 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: She had to use the city bus to go from 71 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: job to job, house to house as a maid. She 72 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: was a drunkard herself. I can see my mom coming home. 73 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: She was an alcoholic, alcoholic, drinking a lot, and embarrassed 74 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: about the kids, you know, I mean embarrassed in front 75 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: of the kids, my friends when my mom was drunk 76 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: coming home, staggering from one side of the street to 77 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: the other side. 78 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 2: So when you were at home, you were embarrassed. 79 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: I was very embarrassed of my mo. Uh what where. 80 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: Were you in the group of kids? What number were. 81 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: You next to? The youngest? 82 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: Uh? You know, did the did the oldest almost help 83 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: raise you guys too? 84 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: Exactly? I'm my sister, she's the oldest. And then I 85 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: had a brother, and then another sister didn me, then 86 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: another brother, you know, so she was pretty much Arma. 87 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: So did you. Uh, I guess no transportation. You went 88 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: to school in the hood wherever school was. 89 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: Three miles walking to school, and uh, you know, I 90 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: can remember walking to school with my my shoes, the 91 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: soles of my shoes out at times, and socks getting wet, 92 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: and you know you're going to school rain sleep, it's 93 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: you're going to be. 94 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: My grandmother and grandfather grew up in the Depression, and 95 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: I had some loafers that i'd worn a I don't 96 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: know about a half dollar size hold just right in 97 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: the in the soul, and they took some cardboard, cut 98 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: out a disk and tucked it in my shoe. And 99 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 2: I had I had cardboard covering a hole in my 100 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 2: shoe for about two or three weeks. So I know 101 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: what that's like. And it's all right until it rains. 102 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: Say that cardboard gets siggy, and if he get wet 103 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: and defeat stink. 104 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: Et ter exactly. And everybody don't want to sit next 105 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: to you. They want to sit next to that guy 106 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: with the stinking tea. Absolutely, So you did you? 107 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 2: Did you stay all the way through high school in 108 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: this area in South south Park, South Park? So you 109 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: graduated high school from the school in South Park. 110 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: Yes, I graduated from high school. You know, I did 111 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: some things as in the litle football good you know, 112 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: play Dad kept me out of play some basketball. I 113 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: don't even know if you remember the five Slammer Jammers 114 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: back in the day. 115 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: Who would not remember a chem olajuon Clyde Dressler and 116 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: who is the third one? 117 00:06:58,520 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: Uh yeah young? 118 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah right sure? But yeah, but why that's everybody 119 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: in Houston was just set on fire by that. 120 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean that's a that's a rememberable thing 121 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: because all they did was slam Yeah, that's right. Well 122 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: I mentioned them because those are the guys that I 123 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: used to play against. I was all American in high 124 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: school basketball. 125 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: You were all American American high ball? 126 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: Yes? 127 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 2: And were you really? Yes? 128 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: I used to play against them guys in high school. 129 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: Why didn't you? Did you go? Okay, so you graduated 130 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: and you went to the University of Houston. Did you 131 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: go to Houston to play basketball? 132 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: I went to Houston to play basketball. But then I 133 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: didn't pass the physical and tell me flat feet, they 134 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: didn't even want to deal with me even in America. Yeah, 135 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: and then I had then I had of course I 136 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: had an injury too, and then I thought, man, do 137 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: I want to have a surgery, do I want to 138 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: play basketball? Or what would I do with my with 139 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: my life right now? It was a deciding factor. I 140 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: decided at that time that I was going to be 141 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: a preacher. And they's like, what do you want to 142 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: be a preacher for. 143 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: I'm like, come out, You're talking about like your freshman 144 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: year in college. Yes, so the reason you went to 145 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: the University of Houston was basketball. Well that's what I 146 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: was trying to get to is what got you to 147 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: the University of Houston. And now this comes up. Basketball? 148 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: You have to you could hoop? 149 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I had a little something and I still 150 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: think I got something. But you know, the mind is 151 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's not the mind is there, but the 152 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: body is not there. 153 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 2: Right all right? So now basketball is gone and you're 154 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: a freshman at the University of Houston. 155 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: You say, I want to be a preacher, right, So 156 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: what's your major. It's actually business computer information Systems. Because 157 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: I thought that doesn't job, that doesn't jie because I thought, man, 158 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: preachers are poor. I don't want to be no preacher. 159 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I have a heart to want to help people, 160 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: but they're poor. They don't have no money, you know. 161 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: So I say, let me get my degree in business 162 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: computer information system in business, and then I can get 163 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: that degree, first start working and then support myself. 164 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: And then I can do what I really like doing. 165 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 2: I sold, where did the where did the draw to 166 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: faith come from? I mean, despite your mother's alcoholism and 167 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: the poverty. Were y'all always in church on Sundays or not? 168 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: Really? When I saw that much destruction in my life 169 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: and I thought, man, it's got to be a better life. 170 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: It's got to be something better than this. And I 171 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: can remember making a deal with God. I said, God, 172 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: if I can stop smoking dope and get off these 173 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: drugs myself, then I don't need you. 174 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: So where were you smoking weed in high school? 175 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: Or in high school? I started when I was eight 176 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: years old, really eight to fifteen. I was smoking dope, 177 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: you know, and I was going to be a drug dealer. Actually, 178 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: my brother taught me how to sell drugs. I had people. 179 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: That's where I learned most of my business skills from. 180 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: I was franchising, you know, people working for us on 181 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: the streets, you know, doing our business right. And I thought, man, 182 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: this is not a good life for me. And so 183 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: I decided, if I can't stop this myself, then that 184 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: means I don't have the strength to do this, and 185 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: I need to trust something bigger than myself. And I 186 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: made a deal with God. I said, if I can't 187 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: stop it in thirty days, I'm giving my life over 188 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: to you. Well, in twenty nine days, I failed. 189 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: Unbelievable. So the truth is you're a kid born into 190 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 2: poverty with an absent father and an alcoholic mother, and 191 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: you're doing what the streets bring you. And you happen 192 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: to be talented basketball player, but right you're in the 193 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: streets doing kids stuff. And because of your basketball you're 194 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: able to get to the University of Houston. Absolutely, And 195 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 2: there you said, well let me try this management information 196 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: computer systems things because maybe I make some money. Yes, 197 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: and that's that. That's that, And you graduate from Houston 198 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: with that degree, with that degree, and you still want 199 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: to be a preacher. 200 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: I I'm a preacher, you know, but I'm one that 201 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: probably unorthodox preacher. I mean, I'm you know in terms 202 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: of I'm not the one with the suit on Sunday 203 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: and preaching, and you know, I don't like the flamboyance 204 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: of a lot of that. I just I just want 205 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: to be a normal dude that has the Lord in 206 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: his heart and his life and love on people. 207 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 2: Okay, so you go to Tulsa because you want to 208 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: get your degree, your masters, I think from or Robbers. 209 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: Yes, I decided to go to Old Roberts to get 210 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: my master's and in divinity. 211 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: In divinity. 212 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a three year degree. And Tulsa, okahom is 213 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: really like the harbor of Christian schools. 214 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: You're in Tulsa and you start a business, is that? 215 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? 216 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: What? What? What? What spurred the business? 217 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: Well, you know, in school student, you doing full time classes, 218 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: no money. 219 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: No doubt. I was with you or yeah, broke. 220 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: Broke in poor and I thought, well, I need to 221 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: make some money. So I remember my cousin who's got 222 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: an accounting firm, a tax firm, and I had spent 223 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: a summer or two there learning that business and that 224 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: kind of thing, and I thought, well, maybe I can franchise. 225 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: Like preparing tax like an H and R Block thing, 226 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 2: tax a tax. 227 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: Deal, a tax preparation company. 228 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have to be an accountant? You don't 229 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 2: have to be an account necessarily to have one of those. 230 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: No. No, he was the CPA over our company, and 231 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, he checked all the documents and stuff like that. 232 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: But I was just doing regular tax returns, bookkeeping. 233 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: Busy, busy, busy during taxis. 234 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, And then we tapped into an industry of 235 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: barbers and hairstylists who would not prepare their tax returns. 236 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: They wouldn't do their tax returns, but they couldn't get 237 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: cars and houses and stuff that they couldn't prove their records. 238 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: So that was an industry I got into, okay, and 239 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: started getting a bunch of barbers and hairstylists and. 240 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: A lot of people who have a lot of cash, right, yeah, 241 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 2: all right, So you're doing that while you're going to school. Well, 242 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to school, all right. And so basically you're 243 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 2: preparing taxes for folks, correct, all right and helping them 244 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: hopefully clean up their cash heavy businesses. 245 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, in a legal way, in a legal way. 246 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: It was a niche in that business. 247 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 2: I thought, any little money doing it, why are you 248 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: in school? 249 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely all right? 250 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: And so do you graduate from or Roberts? 251 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: Yeah? I graduated from L Roberts. The business was doing 252 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: well and making six figures at this point franchising the business. 253 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: How old are you at this time? 254 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm twenty nine. 255 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: Are you married? 256 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: No, I'm not married at this time. I got married. 257 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: I was thirty two. I got it, and so I'm 258 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: just I'm a franchise. I have this entrepreneur background I 259 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: learned back in the drug got it and I saw. 260 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm a franchise this man, I'm gonna 261 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: start getting I got five offices open. We're doing thousands 262 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: and thousands of dollars worth of tax returns in this 263 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: industry and this niche and everybody loving you know, hey, listen, 264 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: I can still report my taxes. I can do it, 265 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I don't have to do stuff 266 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: under the table. Now I can report my financials and 267 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: get me a house. And the people that you're serving, 268 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: yeah right, yeah, they're like, oh man, I love this bit. 269 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: So they bring me on, pay me monthly residual income, 270 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: and this is growing. And so I graduated from Old Roberts, 271 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: you know, and it allowed me to be able to 272 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: go and buy a house in Georgia. So I'm doing 273 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: good in Georgia. I left that office in Tulsa, Oklahoma 274 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: to one of the employees there. 275 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: All right, hang on, okay, so why Georgia. 276 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: Georgia's my wife and I you know, our ministry it 277 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: was a multicultural ministry. 278 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: Well, we're jumping. So during the growing of the business, 279 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: you do meet your wife, I do in Tulsa. In Tulsa, 280 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: all right, and you guys get married. We get married, 281 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: and now your business has grown and you're married, and 282 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: you decide you want to move to Georgia for the ministry, 283 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: not for the business. 284 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: Right for the ministry. And so we thought Georgia was 285 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: a very segregated place. You know, our ministry of multiculturalism 286 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: can can thrive, and so we can explain multicultural was 287 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: most multiculturalism multi racial, you know, multiple races. Culture is 288 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: coming together in one place, you know, looks like one church. 289 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: It didn't matter what color you are, would race, what culture, 290 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: we're bringing it together, right because we want to look 291 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: like Heaven. 292 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know who said it, but it's 293 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: been said that the most segregated day in the United 294 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: States is Sunday. 295 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: Correct, absolutely, eleven o'clock hour on Sunday. 296 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: And so you're trying to, yeah, to blend. 297 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: That, trying to blend that, because let me. 298 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: Ask that, how you gonna how you're gonna blend black 299 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: folks who are used to two and a half hour 300 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: services with white folks who are ready to go in 301 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: one hour? How you do that? What do you have 302 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: an hour and thirty minutes? Is that the compromise? How 303 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: that work? 304 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: There was a lot of compromising with my wife, and 305 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: I met my wife in seminary and so when we uh, 306 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: we were actually act the professor, how do you start 307 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: a multiculture church? Because we haven't seen nothing like that 308 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: out there back. 309 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: Because it's not just black and white. Yeah, it's actually 310 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 2: there's there's such a difference in the way that black 311 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 2: and white people worship the same. 312 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: God, absolutely absolutely, So what do you do? Well, the 313 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: professors didn't know. They're like, we ain't never seen he said. 314 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: They said, when you guys go out there and start 315 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: a church, you know, you write the book and we'll 316 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: teach it. That's all I say. Okay. Then I started 317 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: asking the Lord said how do we start a multiculture church? 318 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: And gives he gives me one word from scratch, just 319 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: start over, just do it, field it from scratch, right, 320 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: And I said, what does that look like? He said, 321 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: look at the music that you play, make sure it's multicultural. 322 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: Look at your leadership, make it it it looks multicultural. 323 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: The way your preaching style. You can't be hooping all 324 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: the time. You got to teach something right. And then 325 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: look at the timing. You know, don't spend these hours 326 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: long hours in services. They can want to come back 327 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: next week. 328 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 2: So I took I took two of them. I'm an 329 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: ass football players one time to church with me. I 330 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: did it a lot. This particular time, I took two clowns. Man, 331 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: I love these kids with clowns, right. They were the 332 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: ones that I got mad at and made run laps 333 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: all the time. But Lord have mercy. When I was 334 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 2: on the way home, I was dying laughing because they 335 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: were her layers. I couldn't let them know. They got me, man, 336 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: they got me, right. So I take them to church, 337 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: and uh, the offering plate came around, and uh, they 338 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: didn't put none in it. And the first the first kid, 339 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: didn't put nothing in it, and then dre put his 340 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: money in it. And he nudged Chartavius and Chartavius when 341 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 2: we had and put the money in it. And jar 342 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: Tevis said, man, I ain't got but you know, one dollar, 343 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 2: and I needed to wait, and Trey goes, don't you know, 344 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: this thing's only coming around one time. They ain't got 345 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 2: no building fund this place here paid for. 346 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: That's a difference. 347 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: But it taught me a lesson because after church, I said, 348 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 2: we were all talking about they like coaching. Our church 349 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: offer play comes from three times man, And I said really. 350 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: They said yeah, because you got the regular offering, then 351 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: you got the building funds, then you got the wellness 352 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: check fauns or whatever. And he said you got to 353 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 2: keep it up money and pocket your every time it 354 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: comes wrath. 355 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: That's true. 356 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. 357 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: That is so true. 358 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. Yeah, so I get it. You're 359 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 2: doing a multicultural church, but there's a lot of different 360 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: stuff to it. 361 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: It is it is, you know, by the way, I'm 362 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: in a multicultural relationship, right, Okay, we got mixed children, 363 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: and so it's it's kind of organic for us, you know, sure, right, 364 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: it's in our life. So when you come to the 365 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: front door, if you're not if you don't have a 366 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: multicultural mindset, you're probably not going to probably join our church. 367 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: And now a few messages from our general sponsors. But first, 368 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: I hope you'll subscribe to the podcast so that you'll 369 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: get the newest episodes in your library every week. And 370 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: also consider signing up to join the Army at Normalfolks 371 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 2: dot us because together we can change the country. And 372 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 2: you'll also receive weekly email updates about the Army. We'll 373 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: be right back. You start this church in I guess 374 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 2: Atlanta area, is that right? Right? 375 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, we start in Atlanta area. 376 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 2: Okay, and you do it because Atlanta has lots. 377 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: Of culture in it, right, and very segregated. 378 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: All right, and it is very segregated. And so but 379 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: you got this business that you built is still operating 380 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 2: back in Tulsa, Tulsa and the related area. 381 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, Tulsa. And then we did expand here to Georgia 382 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: as well, and four of the offices here in that 383 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: one office in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 384 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, so what happened. 385 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: So we're doing well, we're building the church. Hundreds and 386 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: hundreds of members are coming. 387 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: We left that to when you say you're building a church, 388 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 2: do you have a fixed facility yet? 389 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a fourteen thousand square footage building. 390 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: Wow, Then you are building a church, building a church 391 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: physical church. 392 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: Yes, and people and it's just growing and growing and 393 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: we're just having the best time of our lives. My 394 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: wife and I were growing. Everything is happening like we 395 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: thought it would happen. And then Tulsa, the employee there, 396 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: started doing stuff under the table that I knew nothing about. 397 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: You know. He started doing tax returns on the side, 398 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: not within the company now, and so he's using the 399 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: company's name, but he's not reporting it because he's getting 400 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: cash on the side, lovely, but he's using my name 401 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: because because I owned the business, he used my office, 402 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: all our resources, and he's getting this stuff on the side. 403 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: And so he started helping his friends out a little 404 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: bit on the tax returns. Because everything we do is 405 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: very conservative. We're watching everything that comes through is check 406 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: two or three times. We got CPA looking at it, 407 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: making sure everything's good. He didn't send it through that 408 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: process because he's getting money on the side, you know. 409 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: So and then he gets in trouble. He gets in 410 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: to the point where he gets indicted. Then it's my 411 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: company and he tells me he's getting indicted, and then 412 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: I come down to try to save him. You know, 413 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: this is I can't believe this guy's doing tax returns correctly. 414 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, well, because they thinking I'm the big fish 415 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: of the whole company, let's indict him too. So I 416 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: get indicted and and so now we're in a we're 417 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: going to go to trial. A lot of times people 418 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: take please when you're getting indicted by the face, I 419 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: wasn't gonna take the plea. And even the prosecutor said 420 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: he's not going to take a plea because he's not 421 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: going to allow on himself. He's a preacher. So she 422 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: was right exactly. And so I told my lawyer at 423 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: the best lawyer that you could ever have went to trial, 424 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 1: and uh and second day, first day, second day, third 425 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: day in trial, we're winning. When I say we're winning, 426 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: I'm saying that it's obvious to the judge and the jury. 427 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: They can't put a case on you if you didn't 428 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: have anything to do with it. 429 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: And every time I go in other than I. 430 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: Mean, and I'll candor own a business and you are 431 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: responsible for the people to work for you, exactly names 432 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: on it. 433 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: That's exactly. 434 00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: You know. 435 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: The crown's heavy, the crown is heavy. 436 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 2: And so so you did have responsibility that you didn't 437 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: properly oversee your employee exactly. I mean, that's what I 438 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 2: from a business from a business owner's perspective, right, I 439 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: guess if I'm putting myself in your shoe, my my 440 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: sin and this and my problem in this is allowed 441 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: a little bit of a lack of control inside the institution. 442 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 2: But still that can that's not necessarily criminal. I don't think. 443 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: No, well, it's not criminal. It's not. It's not righteous, 444 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: but it's not criminal either. It's not it's it's it's 445 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: it could be. You know, like I said before, it 446 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: goes all the way back for hiring this particular person. 447 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: This is that's a mistake. 448 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. This person, Uh, the reason 449 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: why I hired him is because he lost the job. 450 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: He was going to my church. He lost the job 451 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: in Tulsa, and he has a wife and four kids, 452 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: and I I knew why he lost that job, but 453 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: that didn't pay much attention to it. 454 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: So he had some shady pass. 455 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: He had some He took a company truck out of 456 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: town and wasn't supposed to and got fired. And this 457 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: guy's working. I brought him on board because I wanted 458 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: him to make some money and take care of his family. 459 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: There's something to be learned about that is that doing 460 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: good things versus doing god things. Right, I did. A 461 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: good thing is bringing somebody on in spite of their 462 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: past and giving them an opportunity. Right the god thing 463 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: that God said do that. And when I look back hindsight, 464 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: God never said told me to do that. 465 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: I had a mentor when I grew up, and he 466 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: used to say that your heart's ego gets in the 467 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 2: way of your mind too often. And he said, and 468 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: you want to know how I can prove that to you. 469 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: I said sure. He said, have you ever felt when 470 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: something goes wrong and thought to yourself, I knew I 471 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 2: shouldn't have done that. And I said, everybody's felt that. 472 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 2: And he said, well, win, something blows up and your 473 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 2: first response is I knew I shouldn't have done that. 474 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: That means your brain gave you the right answer to 475 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: that quandary, but you chose to ignore your brain because 476 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: your ego thought you knew better. 477 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: Oh, that is that is the truth. 478 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: That is what in my mentor told me. He said, 479 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 2: when your brain's telling you not to do something and 480 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: your ego is telling you to do something, take a 481 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 2: deep breath and listen, because your brain will give you 482 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: the answer to any question you ask it, if you'll 483 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 2: just shut yourself down long enough. 484 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And if you got a wife right there that 485 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: was like close this office down. You don't need his office. 486 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: You know. 487 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, but he's going to lose his job. 488 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: He's gonna lose he can't take care of his family. 489 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: Three days into the court over all of this, despite 490 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: the mistake that you made with the guy, and again 491 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 2: not hammering you, but I get it out of business. 492 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 2: You know, you you you pay for those fakes. But 493 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: still you may be held accountable to some losses or whatever, 494 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 2: but you're not losing a criminal case because they're not 495 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: able to because they can't rightly connect dots that aren't there. 496 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: And you didn't know this was going on, right, I 497 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: did not know this. So you feel like three days 498 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 2: you're at least winning the criminal portion. 499 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Of this, still coming to court. Can you point out 500 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: mister robb is in the courtroom, never seen my face. 501 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: Did he do your taxes? 502 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: No? Yeah? So? Oh so the people that they were 503 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 2: that he was doing the work for, they were testifying. 504 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: I never met this guy, never met this guy. There 505 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: was this other guy who I was with. 506 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy is the one that did my taxes. 507 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: I know him, right, So they never met me before, right, Yeah, 508 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: So I'm you know. Third day, fourth we went in 509 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: the case, and then all of a sudden something changed 510 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: in the trial. They put a tax return up. It 511 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: had a company stamp on it, my company stamp. But 512 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: the one that we had as evidence against us didn't 513 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: have a company stamp on it. 514 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 2: You think they stamped it, Yeah, I think they You 515 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: think they forged evidence? Yes, the prosecutor forged a yes 516 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: for real? Now, yes, I mean does that really happen nowadays? 517 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: Really happened then and still happening today. They forced these documists, 518 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: and I'm gon tell you how I know it's really happened. 519 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: My lawyer cross examined the same document. And as he 520 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: was crossing examined with the same witness that they had 521 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: on the stand, he was bringing up this difference, and 522 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, six prosecutors go down in their chair, 523 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: sliding down in their chair, and the proceedings stopped. The 524 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: whole proceeding stop. This is the middle of the day, 525 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: this is a busy court. The whole proceeding stop and 526 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: it's going to now start over the next day. 527 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: Why so that can regroup. 528 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. And so when the next morning my lawyer all 529 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: of a sudden tells me he's got five years of 530 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: tax returns. He has not done your own attorney, my 531 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: own attorney after a year's preparation. 532 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 2: Good lord. 533 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: And I'm like, why are you telling me this? Now, 534 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: this is a conflict of interest. But no, we got 535 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: you man, We're gonna win this case. You remember they 536 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: they tried to change those documents on you. So he 537 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: wants to keep me in the trial. I'm saying, I 538 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: didn't figure all this out. And then until they finished 539 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: their trial. They the prosecutors finished their part of the trial. 540 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: Now it's our time. I never had a trial put up. 541 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: I never had a case put up. He never recalled 542 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: any witnesses, he never went back we examined the documents. 543 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: He's never done. He had some character witnesses come up 544 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: at the end. 545 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: So is he getting out of his five years of 546 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: mess by railroad in the whole deal? 547 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? So his closing arguments is this, you know the 548 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: prosecutors the state really won this trial? Is how overt 549 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: this was they really won this trial my client. They 550 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: closed my client's office down and look at your tax 551 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: dollars being used. Very well, that's his closing argument. 552 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: Wow. 553 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: And I got thrown under the bus, you know. So 554 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, can you before that? And these back up? 555 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: Before that, I said, can you put me on the stand, 556 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: because they put the co defendant on the stand with 557 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: a new lawyer, which was an ex prosecutor, to say 558 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: he never did any tax returns. 559 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, he. 560 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: Did no tax returns and this is his office there. 561 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: And then it was my time. I said, well, you 562 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: need to put me up there so I can say 563 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: I didn't do the tax returns because it's his word 564 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: against my word. I liked, say, I don't have any 565 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: questions for you. 566 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: Wow, I have. 567 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: No questions for you. I said, you have to have 568 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: some questions for me. You can't, we can't. And I'm thinking, 569 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble. I never not like this before. 570 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: If I say anything, they're going to hold me contempt 571 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: at court. Da dah dah. I need to talk to 572 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: my lawyer. And so by time it was over. Long 573 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: story short, I got found guilty of false tax returns 574 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: and was acquitted of conspiracy. My co defendant, which is 575 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: the employee, got acquitted of both. 576 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: Wow. 577 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: And it was because I was not able to speak 578 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: for myself on that. They had him for sixty five 579 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: counts they had me for fifteen or the same sixty 580 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: five counts because there's this conspiracy there. If they would 581 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: have found me guilty of all him and me guilty, 582 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: I could have done fifteen years. So if there were 583 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 1: was a blessing that came out of this when they 584 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: didn't find him guilty, they only gave me three and 585 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: a half years of false tax attorneys. 586 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: But now you've got to do three and a half years. Yeah, 587 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 2: we'll be right back. So you are how many children 588 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: do you have at this point? I have three children 589 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: at this point. You have all three of the children. 590 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: So no, no, no, excuse me, no, not at this point. 591 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: I think we had two at this point. Yeah, and 592 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: the third one came in two thousand and three. 593 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: So you have you have come from the projects and 594 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: the ghetto of Houston. You have a degree, an undergraduate degree, 595 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: a graduate degree. You built a business, and now you've 596 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: built a multicultural church in Georgia and you're fiking to 597 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: go to jail. 598 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I can remember my and married and married 599 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: with children, and you're going to jail. I'm going to 600 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: turn myself in, and that. 601 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: Does feel like well, forget forget that, I mean absent 602 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: the fact that you had to have felt railroaded. That 603 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: would be anger and frustration everything, And I get that. 604 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: What I'm talking about is, I mean, I know where 605 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: I came from, and I know I didn't have much 606 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: nothing coming up, and I know I've reached a point 607 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: in my life where at least I've been able to 608 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: provide for my family and myself and have some level 609 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 2: of success in my life. And for to all be 610 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: stripped away, I think I would feel desperate. I mean, 611 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: what did you feel? 612 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: Empty? 613 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: Empty? 614 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: I felt like I was forsaken by God, forsaken by man. 615 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 1: And I was disappointed with myself. Yeah, I was very 616 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: disappointed because I made some decisions. 617 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: Because I had got you, you partnered up with this 618 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: guy that you wasn't any good anyway. 619 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: I didn't. At first, I was. I was bitter. I 620 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: was very bitter about that, and I had to I 621 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: had to come to this understanding that that I was 622 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: I was flawed, you know, because when I was in prison. 623 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: I was angry with everybody, the judge, the prosecutors, everybody, 624 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, the co defendant. Myself, I'm just madd that's 625 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: fair enough. Yeah, I'm there, and then you go and 626 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: you get in prison. My wife dropped me off. First 627 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: of all, I'm looking at my children. I'm thinking, I'm 628 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: not going to ever see them in this context, at 629 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,919 Speaker 1: least for another three and a half years. Right, drop 630 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: them off at the daycare, and then they kissing me 631 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: just like normal. They don't have a they don't have 632 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: to like, they don't know. So here I am. I'm 633 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: getting dropped off at prison. I'm saying, these these prison, 634 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: these these uh these bars, and I'm looking at these 635 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: these wired barb bar fence and they talk to you, 636 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: they literally talk to you, and they say you're going 637 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 1: nowhere for three years, for thirty years, for fifty years, 638 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: and you get this sickness. Everybody feels this sickness. I 639 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: found out it's just this pit. It's just you don't 640 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: know what to do with all this. You're angry, you're upset. 641 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: You know, some people no longer have control over anything. 642 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 2: Their light. You're told when the shower shave. 643 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: There's no big eyes, no little us in prison. I 644 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: don't care who it was. You could have been a 645 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: multi million there, or you can be just a person, 646 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: a poor person off the street. Doesn't matter. Everybody get 647 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: treated the same, which is like crap, like crap, you 648 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: get nothing, they tell you it gets nothing coming here. 649 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: You have no divine I can remember I said, I'm 650 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: divinely favored. You know, they say no, you're not in here. 651 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: So how this felt? Was just empty and desperate. 652 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: Just empty and desperate. 653 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: And your lard must be breaking as you're saying goodbye 654 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 2: to your family. 655 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: And this happens on a regular basis when they come 656 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: to visitation. But we'll talk about that. 657 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: But what I'm thinking is that first day. And then 658 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 2: also I'm sitting here as i'm thinking through talking to 659 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: you about this. You also you're losing everything. I mean, 660 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 2: how can you run a church when you're not there 661 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 2: and your business is gone? Yeah, so you've come from nowhere, 662 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 2: built up the shirts and this business and it's over. 663 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: It's over. 664 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 2: And how are you going to take care of your 665 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 2: wife and kids? 666 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: But she never worked outside the house. I don't know 667 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: how they're gonna make it now. I don't know we're 668 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: gonna So you got to be desperate, just desperate, depressed, 669 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: down and out, don't know what to do, didn't want 670 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: to pray, couldn't pray because I'm mad at God. Just 671 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: think about it. You just you're at a state where 672 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: you're like, hout in the world. I got here in 673 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: the first place. I'm blaming everybody else but myself. Right then, 674 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: I then there was something that happened while I was 675 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: in prison going through all these emotions. After I did 676 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: my appeal, I lost the appeal, losing it meaning that 677 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: they're not going to answer it, never answered it to 678 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: this day. So I'm like, Okay, then God shows me 679 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: as I'm. 680 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 2: Important for the listeners, losing appill does. And they reviewed 681 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 2: your case and found you guilty again. They just said, no, no, 682 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 2: we ain't revisiting. That's what we're calling this closed. That's right, 683 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: so quick, rightness, good rightness. So you didn't really lose 684 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: an appeal. You're just never gonna get an appeal hurt right, Okay, exactly, 685 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 2: But yeah, you cling to a little hope of an appeal, right, 686 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 2: and when that's over, you lose all that. 687 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: Hope to go into another spiral. 688 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get it a depressent. Yeah. I've spoken with 689 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 2: people who have explained that the appeal only like one 690 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 2: tenth of one percent of appeals actually go anywhere. But 691 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 2: the reason so many people send them out is they 692 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 2: many of them don't even think they have a chance, 693 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 2: but it just offers them some shred of hope that 694 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 2: is non existent. 695 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. So I'm in I'm in the prison, in 696 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: the courtyards of the prison. This is when things really 697 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: started shifting and turning around in my mindset. I'm watching 698 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: these guys stealing out of the kitchen right bread. I'm like, 699 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: what you locked up? I mean, you're still still and 700 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 1: they got you already, what you're doing. They got cameras 701 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: around here, you know, and uh. And then all of 702 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: a sudden, this familiar voice in my mind start speaking, 703 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: do you think these bones can live right here? And 704 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, this familiar voice is how God talks to 705 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: me in my mind. I said, you know why you're 706 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: talking to me. I don't want to talk to you. 707 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: And he said, I want you to speak life to 708 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: those dry bones right there. I want you to speak 709 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: likely speak life to them. Yes, I want you to 710 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 1: speak life to them. And then he said, I want 711 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,399 Speaker 1: you to look at the four winds and I want 712 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: you to speak life to the four winds, to speak 713 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: life to them. And what that meant to me was 714 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: that I was supposed to in spite of my situation. 715 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: I was to bring hope in a dark place because 716 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: I had the goods to do that. 717 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 2: I had the that you have one. You have the pedigree, 718 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 2: right because you've actually got a master's in divinity and 719 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 2: you built church, so you had the chops. Yeah, you 720 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 2: had the elect You had to know how, just had 721 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 2: to have to want to. I guess. Yeah. 722 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 1: The one two was not there until God started showing me. 723 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: Myself, now you're going to start a well, that was 724 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,439 Speaker 2: the first thing that went outreaching well. 725 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: It was the first thing to start changing my heart, 726 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: you know. And then he showed me another thing. He said, 727 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,240 Speaker 1: you remember when I told you to close that office 728 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: and then I confirmed that with my wife. Yeah, with 729 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: your wife, Yeah, which is my second holy spirit, which 730 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: you did what I did, and I'm like, I'm gonna 731 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: do a good thing. Yeah, he said, remember I told 732 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: you to close that. You didn't do it. He said, 733 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,439 Speaker 1: that is sinn to me. He said, with no more, 734 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: no more or less sin than Adam. 735 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 2: So was it greed or you go? 736 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: I think it was both. Be honest with you. See, 737 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: I've made mistakes. 738 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 2: I made mistakes for my business, and I've justified it 739 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 2: with I'm doing this good thing. What the truth is, 740 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 2: it was my own greed and ego. And so I 741 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 2: hear your story and I feel what you're saying, like 742 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 2: you want to help out this guy even though you 743 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 2: know this guy is not a good dude. You think 744 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 2: about his family and everything else. But in the back 745 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 2: of my mind, I'm hearing that, and I'm thinking, but 746 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 2: he was also making some money this too. 747 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: Probably I wouldn't do it if I wasn't making any money. 748 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 2: That's that. 749 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: Is real, right, that's real. That's what you find out 750 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: in places like that. 751 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 2: And I feel it. I mean, I haven't been in prison, 752 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 2: but I know I made I've made mistakes justified him 753 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,760 Speaker 2: as in I'm doing being the good guy and doing things. 754 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 2: But if you know the real truth, come on, I 755 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 2: was getting something out of to get you. 756 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: Probably wouldn't do it, if you know, to be honest, 757 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: I wouldn't, you know, because I'm a business person like man. 758 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, we need to get something, 759 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: and so I got something, why not do something good 760 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: while you I. 761 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 2: Don't know what's got money. 762 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,320 Speaker 1: I don't know which came first, you know what I'm saying. 763 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: Good may have been initial thing, but hey, I can 764 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 1: also make some money doing this. I don't know which 765 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: one came first. 766 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, those kind of messes oftentimes don't have a beginning 767 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 2: or end. 768 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:19,399 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. 769 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, they're just a circle of mess. So now 770 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 2: you're in prison and you feel like the Lord's put 771 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 2: on your heart to try to spread some hope and 772 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 2: use the talents hees giving the inside prison. 773 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: I'm ready to go. 774 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 2: Now you do it. 775 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I started a program in there, that's you know. 776 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: I started a program called the Path program purpose achieved 777 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: through Him. And I thought, okay, what is the first 778 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,800 Speaker 1: thing that Jesus did. Jesus went around and recruited people. 779 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,760 Speaker 1: And I looked at all of this this educational capital 780 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: in here. You got XCPA, psych colleges, you got ex preachers, 781 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: business people, congressmen, all these because there was its federal 782 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: prison camp, right, very educated people. I said, oh, this 783 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: is capital here. Let me go around and recruit you 784 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: know coaches in here, and I had this mind of 785 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,800 Speaker 1: fresh life right. This fresh life is an acronym studies 786 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: for financial relationship, education, spiritual health, legal investments, fitness, and entrepreneurship. 787 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 2: So it's because it's federal prison camp. You've got some 788 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 2: white collar criminals and that have a lot to offer 789 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 2: in terms of their experience and know how. Yeah, so 790 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 2: you're going out and finding guys that do financial stuffs, 791 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 2: psychologists or whatever. They've made missteps to get themselves in prison, 792 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 2: but they still have that core competency after the school 793 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 2: of thought that they. 794 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: Know and they're just like me and we want to 795 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: do the right thing. And so we got a lot 796 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 1: of younger guys in there that are misdirected, don't have 797 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,439 Speaker 1: any direction, They just just just out there lost. I thought, 798 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: let me start. Let me get these very educated guys 799 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: that have a heart that want to help these younger community. 800 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: And every week we started to path program. Hundreds and 801 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: hundreds of people you show up after work because they 802 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,240 Speaker 1: love this program. We have a coach a week, fresh 803 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: Life coach and. 804 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,800 Speaker 2: Start a mentoring program basically yeap. 805 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,240 Speaker 1: And so after the prison in prison and so these 806 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: mentoring is what they would do after the class. They 807 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 1: would hoddle up around the trees and the coach will 808 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: be teaching the students. Yeah, and they had the time 809 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,879 Speaker 1: to do it, and so they would come out. 810 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 2: At that point, right right, And. 811 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: So they would come out with life plans, business plans, 812 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: ministry plans, and a lot of them came out and 813 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: started churches, businesses, got jobs, with their lives, reunited with 814 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 1: their families. So that was probably the best thing I 815 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,439 Speaker 1: ever done in my life, really in a prison set. 816 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 2: And that concludes Part one of my conversation with aster 817 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,760 Speaker 2: Lee Robbins, and Part two is now available, which dives 818 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 2: into an extraordinary re entry program called Vital Signs. I 819 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 2: hope you'll listen in. It's interesting stuff. I'll see you 820 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 2: in Part two.