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Speaker 2: that old network existed.
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Speaker 1: Jay Sheety Jay sheety Hey, everyone, Welcome back to On Purpose,
Speaker 1: the place that you come back to every single week
Speaker 1: to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: that you chose to tune in today because today's episode
Speaker 1: is going to be one that I know each and
Speaker 1: every one of you can deeply relate to. If you've
Speaker 1: been talking recently with your friends about trauma bonds, this
Speaker 1: episode is for you. If you've been struggling with the
Speaker 1: relationship in your life, romantic or otherwise, this episode is
Speaker 1: for you. And if you're someone who's just been trying
Speaker 1: to figure out how to navigate boundaries, how to navigate
Speaker 1: all the different roles you play in a relationship, the
Speaker 1: challenges that come from stress responses we've developed early on
Speaker 1: in our childhood, this episode is for you. I'm speaking
Speaker 1: about a guest who's been on once before. You absolutely
Speaker 1: loved our conversation. The One and Only Doctor Nicole Leaperra,
Speaker 1: a holistic psychologist trained at Cornell University. The New School
Speaker 1: for Social Research and the Philadelphia School of Psychoanalysis. Nicole
Speaker 1: is the founder of the global Community Healing Membership Self
Speaker 1: Healers Circle, and the author of the number one New
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller How to Do the Work, How to
Speaker 1: Meet Yourself, and today we're discussing her latest book, How
Speaker 1: to Be the Love You Seek, Break cycles, find peace,
Speaker 1: and Heal your Relationships. If you don't have this book already,
Speaker 1: I want you to go and order it right now.
Speaker 1: We're diving in. Please welcome to the show, doctor Nicole.
Speaker 4: Nicole. It's great to have you.
Speaker 3: Back and such an honor.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for coming back onto the show.
Speaker 1: Like we were saying, we were together like three years ago,
Speaker 1: and so much has happened. But what I've loved is
Speaker 1: to see your influence, your impact, and your insights continue
Speaker 1: to grow and take mainstream attention. And I think it's
Speaker 1: so deserving and so worthy the work that you're doing.
Speaker 1: And I'm so happy that we get to reconnect and
Speaker 1: do this again.
Speaker 4: So thank you.
Speaker 3: Of course, I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 2: And I when you pointed out that it has been
Speaker 2: three years, I mean my head almost popped off. I mean,
Speaker 2: talk about a lot, a lot happening, a lot of possibility.
Speaker 2: I'm just again so honored to connect with you in
Speaker 2: your community.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know this is going to help the community.
Speaker 1: So let's dive straight in. You start very emphatically in
Speaker 1: the book and the title says you create change. And
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people that hear that,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us feel we don't have
Speaker 1: the power to change things. We don't feel we have
Speaker 1: the ability to change things. We feel that our life
Speaker 1: is a constant bombardment of things happening to us, of
Speaker 1: things that other people do towards us. And you very
Speaker 1: boldly state you create change. I know so many people
Speaker 1: who feel like they don't know how to change, they
Speaker 1: can't change, they're stuck. What makes you so certain and
Speaker 1: conscious that you can create change?
Speaker 2: I think too nowhere is this the reality of being
Speaker 2: stuck so prevalent, but in our relationships, I think, and
Speaker 2: that's really what inspired this new work is to understand
Speaker 2: why is it? Because what I would hear after writing
Speaker 2: my first book, how to do the work for many
Speaker 2: individuals on the healing journey. Oh, I'm making traction. I'm
Speaker 2: starting to feel good in my life. And I'm feeling
Speaker 2: either ready to be in a relationship or I'm in
Speaker 2: a relationship and it's in my relationship where I'm really stuck.
Speaker 2: And similar to what I talked about in my first book,
Speaker 2: so much of how we relate is governed by our
Speaker 2: subconscious mind, meaning outside of our awareness. So to answer
Speaker 2: your question really simply, I think why we don't believe
Speaker 2: we can create change is because of everything that's happening
Speaker 2: beneath the iceberg, if you will, or in our subconscious
Speaker 2: mind within our relationships. Everything from beliefs about ourself as
Speaker 2: you even shared in the intro roles and identities that
Speaker 2: we've learned to play deep wounding, which contain these moments
Speaker 2: of nervous system dysregulation and reactivity, and ultimately when we
Speaker 2: have these chain of events, these meanings interpretations that our
Speaker 2: subconscious mind is making to the happenings or not happenings
Speaker 2: in our relationship, when that is connected then to physiological
Speaker 2: shifts in my body, those nervous system moments of dysregulation,
Speaker 2: and then when we tune in typically is either mid
Speaker 2: reaction or somewhere shamefully post reaction, and until we've paid
Speaker 2: conscious attention or simply awareness to all of the different
Speaker 2: parts of the story that contribute it to what feels like.
Speaker 3: An instinctive reaction. I'm compelled to do this thing.
Speaker 2: I can't stop up behaving in this way, or the
Speaker 2: world continues to create the same struggles, the same feelings,
Speaker 2: the same cycles, and I think it then becomes really
Speaker 2: natural that we don't feel like we have choice. And
Speaker 2: I think how I convince us all that we do
Speaker 2: have choice is as we become aware of what's going
Speaker 2: on beneath the surface, as we become aware of the
Speaker 2: beliefs and the physiology that is driving those changes, we
Speaker 2: can begin to create just a little bit of space.
Speaker 2: Because I mean, I could sit up here and explain
Speaker 2: to many listeners why we don't feel in choice. Until
Speaker 2: we embody the practice of being able to pause before
Speaker 2: that habitual reaction, it's going to be really hard for
Speaker 2: me to convince us all that we can create change.
Speaker 2: But when we have the tools to view our internal
Speaker 2: world in a new way, including our body and all
Speaker 2: of the stress reaction that's housed in it, then I
Speaker 2: think we do have that empowered shift where I can
Speaker 2: possibly convince you that there is choice change possible in
Speaker 2: your future.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: One of the things I hear a lot from our
Speaker 1: community and our audience when I'm talking to people is jay,
Speaker 1: I'm just surrounded by toxic family members. I'm trying to change,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be better, but there's someone in my
Speaker 1: family who'll always say something at that dinner that triggers me.
Speaker 1: There'll be someone who at the holiday party will say
Speaker 1: something to me that will trigger me. There'll be someone
Speaker 1: that I'm living with in the house every day who
Speaker 1: sees me meditate, who sees me trying to work out,
Speaker 1: but as something condescending to say, how do I navigate
Speaker 1: this toxic person that I can't just distance myself from.
Speaker 1: I can't run away from them. They're in my life.
Speaker 1: What do I do?
Speaker 2: And I think an empowering shift we can make is
Speaker 2: to even just first ask ourselves that question, what can
Speaker 2: we do? Because I think it's really natural to instinctively say, well,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have to do anything. If this toxic person
Speaker 2: could be more supportive of this positive habit, or if
Speaker 2: this person could be a little less whatever you know
Speaker 2: they're bringing to the table, I.
Speaker 3: Could then feel different.
Speaker 2: I think the shift of empowerment happens when we say,
Speaker 2: let's assume and even expect that this person doesn't change
Speaker 2: that these comments continue the lack of support, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: and especially when it's within our family. I like to
Speaker 2: offer a bit of insight. I think a lot of
Speaker 2: times we do struggle and will continue to struggle, especially
Speaker 2: within our family. With these long term relationships, there have
Speaker 2: been expectations that have been validated over time, and so
Speaker 2: we really do fall into these kind of learned dynamics.
Speaker 2: So as we begin even to shift into something positive
Speaker 2: for ourselves for the relationship, it's going to challenge the
Speaker 2: dynamics of the system because what the person on the
Speaker 2: other end will be experiencing is something new. And I'm
Speaker 2: very intentionally using that word because while we all can create,
Speaker 2: I mean I just made a case for all of
Speaker 2: the change that we can create at any time in
Speaker 2: our life.
Speaker 3: Our nervous system.
Speaker 2: Prefers the habitual, and even within the roles in our relationships,
Speaker 2: people have learned to predict that we show up in
Speaker 2: predictable ways, and if and when we don't, it actually
Speaker 2: activates now a threat response based on this new experience
Speaker 2: that someone else is having of us now I went
Speaker 2: into that description, of course, because sometimes with that awareness,
Speaker 2: we can engage with the person sharing that comment with us.
Speaker 2: With the person not supporting us in that way, differently,
Speaker 2: we can have a bit of compassion, maybe understanding where
Speaker 2: they're coming from.
Speaker 3: We might even.
Speaker 2: Shift our expectation of that person giving us the support
Speaker 2: or sharing with us something positive in terms of what
Speaker 2: it is that we're doing. If we give up that expectation,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us can learn to navigate
Speaker 2: those relationships because what causes our suffering, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: is the unmet expectation. But then, of course I want
Speaker 2: to just touch quickly on the reality sometimes of boundary changes,
Speaker 2: of new limits, maybe conversations topics that we don't bring
Speaker 2: to this relationship. If we aren't going to get the
Speaker 2: support or the feedback that we need, we can actually
Speaker 2: modify ultimately what it is that we do or how
Speaker 2: it is that we engage with the person.
Speaker 1: I was talking to someone I was coaching, and they
Speaker 1: were talking about a particular trait that they saw in
Speaker 1: their partner, and I said, have you seen this trait before?
Speaker 1: And they said yes, And I said how many times
Speaker 1: have you seen it? And they thought about it for
Speaker 1: a second, and they said every year we've been together.
Speaker 1: And I said, how long have you been together? And
Speaker 1: they said thirty years. And it was really interesting because
Speaker 1: you addressed this at the start of the book, this
Speaker 1: idea that you can't A lot of books have told
Speaker 1: us in the past that if we change our behavior,
Speaker 1: it will somehow change the behavior of the other person,
Speaker 1: That if you can mold and be malleable and manipulate
Speaker 1: your own words, thoughts, and actions, that somehow it will
Speaker 1: create a behavioral response from someone else. But I think
Speaker 1: what you're saying right now as well is that actually,
Speaker 1: even if we change your behavior, our expectation that that
Speaker 1: is somehow going to inspire this other individual to do
Speaker 1: a U turn is actually kind of like a fool's
Speaker 1: errand like it doesn't seem to be something that's going
Speaker 1: to show. And I think that's kind of a hard
Speaker 1: reality to accept. We almost feel that we can get
Speaker 1: people to change and they will change for me and
Speaker 1: I am important enough, if they cared enough, they would change.
Speaker 1: So how do we let go of that expectation? How
Speaker 1: do we build a process and a system to actually
Speaker 1: recognize my expectation with this individual needs to shift because
Speaker 1: I keep seeing the same pattern day after day, month
Speaker 1: after month, or year after year, but I keep fooling
Speaker 1: myself that this will be the year they change, this
Speaker 1: will be the month that it all changes for me.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of times we set that expectation
Speaker 2: or have that kind of fantasy for the future out
Speaker 2: of a protection against the pain and suffering that being
Speaker 2: in the alternate reality of what is happening, the fact
Speaker 2: that this is a pattern that is lasted thirty plus years.
Speaker 2: Just to use your client as an example, that would
Speaker 2: cause a lot of grief, a reckoning, almost maybe even
Speaker 2: a new choice point where this person would be at
Speaker 2: a crossroads. Either I remove this expectation and then modify
Speaker 2: in terms of what this relationship is or means to me,
Speaker 2: or maybe I determine I can't do that, and now
Speaker 2: I might need to shift or remove myself from the relationship.
Speaker 2: And this kind of thinking, which I'm gonna call right
Speaker 2: now immature thinking, but not as a kind of derogatory label,
Speaker 2: more as a developmental stage. And I think it's really
Speaker 2: emblematic of what happens in childhood for a lot of us.
Speaker 2: A lot of us in childhood spend a lot of
Speaker 2: time when we didn't have the physically present or the
Speaker 2: emotionally attuned character that we need it in this kind
Speaker 2: of fantasy world, because the pain of being rejected, of
Speaker 2: not feeling the support and the attunement that we need
Speaker 2: is so great, and I think a lot of us
Speaker 2: continue that as a protective pattern into adulthood. With this
Speaker 2: idea right that I can just imagine, create this future
Speaker 2: in my mind that keeps me separate from the reality
Speaker 2: of my present moment. I think a lot of times
Speaker 2: when we hang those expectations on our partner, right, giving
Speaker 2: them again all of our power, all of our control,
Speaker 2: even for very well intentioned reasons. Sometimes we want to
Speaker 2: support them, We might want to see them create change that.
Speaker 3: We know and they know that they need in their lives.
Speaker 2: But again, when we are putting all of our energy
Speaker 2: on someone else in that way, not only do we
Speaker 2: not have access to it for ourselves, it's felt by
Speaker 2: the other person, even if it's not directly felt, it's
Speaker 2: indirectly felt as a pressure. So again, I want to normalize.
Speaker 2: I think the tendency to fantasize, to wish even the
Speaker 2: very well intentioned actions that we can take sometimes seeming
Speaker 2: in support of someone else, though I just acknowledge the
Speaker 2: reality of the many of us who have created very
Speaker 2: difficult change in our life. It takes a daily commitment
Speaker 2: of having new experiences that will challenge our nervous system
Speaker 2: and learning how to create change anyway. So with that said,
Speaker 2: having this idea that someone else can or will change
Speaker 2: for us is putting an unrealistic expectation on that person,
Speaker 2: because the only person that can create change is us
Speaker 2: and our commitment and are showing up day in, day
Speaker 2: out in action ultimately of that change.
Speaker 1: What are some of the other ways that our childhood
Speaker 1: impacts our current, present and future selves. Because I think
Speaker 1: obviously in society and culture we are talking about this
Speaker 1: idea of what we went through as kids shows up
Speaker 1: in who we are now, but I think we have
Speaker 1: quite a rudimentary basic understanding of how that actually shows up,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if we're always as conscious. I
Speaker 1: found the more I've dealt into this, the more subtle
Speaker 1: my understanding became of myself. So, for example, at one
Speaker 1: point I realized that one of my caregivers had always
Speaker 1: given me a lot of love, but they also made
Speaker 1: me feel guilty when I didn't reciprocate that love, and
Speaker 1: I found myself replicating that in loving relationships as such
Speaker 1: a subtle, hidden thing where I would overly give love
Speaker 1: but then express words or behaviors that would make the
Speaker 1: other person feel guilty if I didn't feel like they
Speaker 1: lived up to my version of it. And it took
Speaker 1: me a while to really recognize that, to heal that,
Speaker 1: to remove that from my vocabulary and my behavior. But
Speaker 1: knowing that it wasn't something that was bad about me
Speaker 1: or that I'd created or that I could blame and
Speaker 1: recognize was so powerful. But what are the ways in
Speaker 1: which our early childhood experiences are affecting our current relationships
Speaker 1: and of course future relationships.
Speaker 2: I think this conversation into the subtlety of it is
Speaker 2: so foundationally important because I know that there's a lot
Speaker 2: of us, especially you know, as we kind of progress
Speaker 2: through adulthood, that has this idea that, well, childhood is
Speaker 2: decades ago. It's actually a space that I don't want
Speaker 2: to go back to. Right I'm an adult now and
Speaker 2: it doesn't impact me because I do think we look
Speaker 2: for the kind of more obvious signs, but there are
Speaker 2: so many kind of ways in which from what we
Speaker 2: were made in childhood to directly or indirectly think about
Speaker 2: ourselves ultimately becomes those deep root of beliefs that we
Speaker 2: carry and continue to think about ourselves into adulthood. In
Speaker 2: terms of our emotions, the way in which we were
Speaker 2: allowed to express our emotions, the support we had in
Speaker 2: which navigating our emotions, simply the level of attunement that
Speaker 2: our caregivers gave us will directly impact our current relationship
Speaker 2: in adulthood with our emotions and our ability to be
Speaker 2: responsively present to them as opposed to reactive. And the
Speaker 2: way those identities that you talked about earlier, the way
Speaker 2: in which we've learned in childhood to connect or relate,
Speaker 2: which for a lot of us meant shoving down parts
Speaker 2: of ourselves expression right, not showing certain aspects of our thoughts,
Speaker 2: of our emotions, of our just general self, and or
Speaker 2: amplifying other aspects. So really, simply how at one time
Speaker 2: we had to connect with or relate to another individual
Speaker 2: ultimately becomes those same roles that we play in our
Speaker 2: current relationship. So when we begin to truly understand not
Speaker 2: only the individual impact, do I know myself? Do I
Speaker 2: know how to navigate my emotions? Do I know how
Speaker 2: to give and receive support in a relationship to then relationally?
Speaker 2: Who am I so much as a remnant or an
Speaker 2: artifact in my opinion of who we once had to be,
Speaker 2: Which is why we have an epidemic in a sense
Speaker 2: of adults who don't know themselves, who don't have the
Speaker 2: emotional resilience that they need to remain responsive to their emotions,
Speaker 2: and who are showing up in all of these you know,
Speaker 2: kind of masks, playing all of these roles, and our
Speaker 2: feeling deep unfulfilled, even those of us that are actively
Speaker 2: in relationships.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like there's this contention between a lot
Speaker 1: of us in relationships are fighting for who we were,
Speaker 1: Like there's a defense to this is how I've been raised,
Speaker 1: this is what I think is right, this is what
Speaker 1: I've been told, these are my beliefs. And then there's
Speaker 1: another part of us that's trying to then cater to
Speaker 1: and sway towards Oh no, but I know I need
Speaker 1: to take on some of yours as well, And that
Speaker 1: kind of often creates a bit of conflict on an
Speaker 1: identity level, because we're wondering, well, what parts of myself
Speaker 1: do I leave behind, But then am I trading for
Speaker 1: their values?
Speaker 4: Then of their values? Right?
Speaker 1: How do you kind of make sense of all of that?
Speaker 1: Because it seems like you've got your early childhood impact.
Speaker 1: The person you have a relationship with is their early
Speaker 1: childhood impact. You've now become adults. Now you're interacting. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of complexity there because you may not even
Speaker 1: be aware of your own let alone. They may not
Speaker 1: be aware of theirs, and so you don't have any
Speaker 1: context of theirs. It feels like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: unknown unknowns in a lot of relationships. And then you're
Speaker 1: fighting about the dishes or the bills, or you're fighting
Speaker 1: about something that feels very current. But would you say
Speaker 1: that actually a lot of it is based on pre
Speaker 1: existing data.
Speaker 2: I think you beautifully Jay described why relationships are so complicated. Why,
Speaker 2: as I said in the beginning, so many of us
Speaker 2: continue to struggle wherever we are on our healing journey
Speaker 2: within our relationships, because we do have all of these influences,
Speaker 2: many of which that are out of sight and knowing
Speaker 2: for ourself of course, because we can only receive information
Speaker 2: that partners or potential partners are sharing. But I feel
Speaker 2: like the individual journey of awareness of even first reckoning
Speaker 2: with the possibility that our past is impacting us right,
Speaker 2: and then getting really present to what habits and patterns
Speaker 2: we are carrying in to our relationship. And then once
Speaker 2: I think we get really clear in terms of what
Speaker 2: is on our side of the street, then we can
Speaker 2: simply before we know the details of kind of what
Speaker 2: is in the subconscious world of our potential partners or
Speaker 2: our loved ones, we can at least have awareness that
Speaker 2: they have that world right, that many of the fights
Speaker 2: that we're having, like you're sharing many fights I have
Speaker 2: had over dishes, isn't necessarily about dishes at all. For
Speaker 2: me personally, I know that there was a lot of
Speaker 2: reactivity that I used to have when I would get
Speaker 2: home from work and I would come home and dishes
Speaker 2: weren't done in the sink. And for me, again all
Speaker 2: beneath the iceberg, what was happening is I went through
Speaker 2: as if I was removed or brought right back in
Speaker 2: time to childhood where I lacked the emotionally attuned caregiver.
Speaker 2: Though I had a caregiver who is very the way
Speaker 2: she expressed loved my mom was through daily self care,
Speaker 2: making sure that there was dinner on the table, making
Speaker 2: sure that the dishes were done. Those were not chores
Speaker 2: that I had as children. So for me, I have
Speaker 2: this belief that those acts of service communicate someone's consideration
Speaker 2: of me, someone's love and support of me. So now
Speaker 2: flash forward in time when those kind of household duties
Speaker 2: aren't done regardless of how my partner is showing up.
Speaker 2: And there were many moments where I was welcomed home
Speaker 2: with support, with interest, with curiosity, how is my day going,
Speaker 2: open for me to talk and share how my day went.
Speaker 2: Yet my laser focus on the lack of the dishes
Speaker 2: being done, and the fact that that brought me back
Speaker 2: as if I was the child who didn't have that
Speaker 2: level of at Tuman, even though it was available in
Speaker 2: my adult moment. It was as if my focus deleted it.
Speaker 2: I was back in time, I was wound it, and
Speaker 2: I react it right from that place. So, just using
Speaker 2: my example, your example, I think all of these really
Speaker 2: beautifully give us when a moment in time elicits a
Speaker 2: really big reaction.
Speaker 3: And this isn't to say I want to be really
Speaker 3: careful here.
Speaker 2: The emotion that I was feeling in the moment at
Speaker 2: the dishes was very real physiologically. I had tension in
Speaker 2: my muscles, my heart was racing, I was having an emotion.
Speaker 2: It's not to shame ourself in that moment. Going back
Speaker 2: in time doesn't negate the reality of the emotional experience
Speaker 2: that we're having, which is why a lot of us
Speaker 2: feel out of control, feel like we can't choose a
Speaker 2: responsive choice, feel like we are instinctually kind of compelled
Speaker 2: to react in that one way, though we do have
Speaker 2: that choice. If we can teach ourselves again that separation,
Speaker 2: if we can understand that big emotions are real though
Speaker 2: a lot of times do indicate something from an earlier time,
Speaker 2: and a lot of times it explains why our reaction
Speaker 2: can be on the more immature, again, just developmental side
Speaker 2: of things.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, I'm so glad you in there, because I think
Speaker 1: that is such a a poignant example of how this
Speaker 1: all works. And it's nice to take something as simple
Speaker 1: as a visual of the dishes and then where that
Speaker 1: comes from.
Speaker 4: What do we do with that awareness? Though?
Speaker 1: Nicole, like, what do we do with that awareness? Because
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people will recognize, oh, got it,
Speaker 1: I've just heard what Nicole said, yeah, that's right. When
Speaker 1: my partner does X, it reminds me of how my
Speaker 1: parent did why. Or when my partner doesn't do why,
Speaker 1: it reminds me of men my parent did X or whatever.
Speaker 4: It may be.
Speaker 1: That version that you have while you're listening right now,
Speaker 1: and for everyone who's listening and watching, I think we
Speaker 1: go I see that, but it's I've crossed that bridge
Speaker 1: so many times that it's I've got so used to
Speaker 1: feeling that it's not only is it real, but it's
Speaker 1: true to me that if someone doesn't do the dishes,
Speaker 1: they don't care about me. Like we've put that meaning
Speaker 1: to it, right, We've ascribed that very deep self worth
Speaker 1: to an act. Right because of the amount of times
Speaker 1: that it's gone on and on and on. Let's say
Speaker 1: we're fortunate enough to even get that awareness, because even
Speaker 1: that requires so much work to even be able to
Speaker 1: admit even though it's real, even though I feel it,
Speaker 1: even though it feels true, that it necessarily isn't true.
Speaker 1: It's just a belief that I've built over time. What
Speaker 1: do I do with that awareness? Because I feel so
Speaker 1: conditioned by it, I feel so stuck in it, And
Speaker 1: guess what my partner still doesn't do the.
Speaker 4: Dishes even when they understand this. So where do I
Speaker 4: go from there? What do I do?
Speaker 2: I think that first piece of communication can go a
Speaker 2: long way as we get clear on ourselves. Of course,
Speaker 2: when we feel safe and secure in our particular relationships,
Speaker 2: we can gift that knowledge because that might be the
Speaker 2: difference between our partner. Then this is I think what
Speaker 2: happens within relationships when we kind of enter into conflict cycles.
Speaker 2: We have one person right regressing back in time, becoming reactive,
Speaker 2: and then typically something in their reactivity sets off the
Speaker 2: receiving partner, who then goes back in time, and now
Speaker 2: we almost have two children kind of like sparring not
Speaker 2: able to though enter their wise adult or more if
Speaker 2: you will.
Speaker 3: Mind So for a.
Speaker 2: Lot of people, that awareness is incredibly helpful. Right for
Speaker 2: a partner in a moment to say, Okay, this isn't
Speaker 2: really about the dishes, even tho I'm feeling very frustrated
Speaker 2: that I'm getting yelled at that the dishes aren't done
Speaker 2: right now, I maybe can compassionately breathe through for the
Speaker 2: person who's uncovering there's important information in these moments. Again,
Speaker 2: it's not to throw away the emotion or to shame
Speaker 2: ourselves for having it. Those emotions carry important information. Right,
Speaker 2: So if at the bottom of this, for a lot
Speaker 2: of us there is an unmet need, maybe it's not
Speaker 2: Maybe the support I need in that moment isn't about
Speaker 2: the dishes, but maybe there is support I'm needing in
Speaker 2: a different area or a different type of support that
Speaker 2: I could benefit from. So understanding what's driving our reactivity,
Speaker 2: I think can give us not only the language to communicate,
Speaker 2: It can give us clarity on what's really going on
Speaker 2: with which then can give us flexibility in other ways
Speaker 2: that we can attempt to get that need met. Because
Speaker 2: this is where I think it gets even more complicated
Speaker 2: what many of us are seeking.
Speaker 1: Me.
Speaker 2: Right, even if I came home and all of the
Speaker 2: dishes were done, that wasn't gonna remove what I felt
Speaker 2: in the kind of like pit of my heart, and
Speaker 2: I do it feels like a visceral as long as
Speaker 2: I can remember, there was like a pressure feeling on
Speaker 2: my chest. That wouldn't remove that feeling because where that
Speaker 2: was coming from was from a lack of emotional attunement.
Speaker 2: So even if everyone that I surround myself with cleans
Speaker 2: my dishes from now until the end of time. If
Speaker 2: they're not giving me that emotional attunement that I need,
Speaker 2: if I'm not participating in that emotional attunement that I
Speaker 2: need because I'm not present in my own emotional body
Speaker 2: and sharing them, right, you get the picture, then I
Speaker 2: will just have a lot of clean dishes for a
Speaker 2: very long time, and I'll still have that pit in
Speaker 2: that hole. And I think this is why a lot
Speaker 2: of us cycle through reactivity.
Speaker 3: We maybe do.
Speaker 2: Directly communicate, maybe even sometimes our partner does the dishes,
Speaker 2: and we still don't feel satisfied. We still don't feel fulfilled,
Speaker 2: we still don't feel that connection or that support that
Speaker 2: we're looking for, because I think a lot of us
Speaker 2: are actually looking for are not the actions. We're looking for,
Speaker 2: that deep level of attunement. We're looking for that resonance.
Speaker 2: We're looking to just feel a little less alone, even
Speaker 2: if no one is saying anything to us, because they're
Speaker 2: just sitting in that emotional presence or that emotional space
Speaker 2: with us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you're so right, going back to
Speaker 1: what you said earlier, we have to sit in that
Speaker 1: space with ourselves in order to invite someone to sit
Speaker 1: in it with us, because they can't just find that space. Right.
Speaker 1: It's almost like you have a basement level in your
Speaker 1: psyche that you have the key and access to in
Speaker 1: the elevator, and if you don't invite someone into that
Speaker 1: because you haven't visited it before, they're just on level
Speaker 1: one trying to figure out where you want them to go.
Speaker 1: And I'm literally visualized Inception right now, the movie where
Speaker 1: all of his dreams are locked in an elevator. But
Speaker 1: I think that that feels so true to me that
Speaker 1: I find that even with my wife. We had a
Speaker 1: really interesting conversation recently, so her book came out this year,
Speaker 1: and before the book was coming out, this was like
Speaker 1: maybe a month before the book came out, and I said,
Speaker 1: I really want to understand how you'd like us to
Speaker 1: celebrate this occasion, because I don't think I know. Now
Speaker 1: we've been together for eleven years, married for eight years,
Speaker 1: and I just said, I don't think I really have
Speaker 1: understood not just how you like to celebrate, because that
Speaker 1: I know we've celebrated great birthdays and you've had a
Speaker 1: great time, but I don't know how you'd like to
Speaker 1: celebrate this occasion in your life. It's different. I don't
Speaker 1: want to take it like anything. And I said my assumption,
Speaker 1: which would be wrong because it's a projection of how
Speaker 1: I'd like to be celebrated. Mine would be to throw
Speaker 1: you a big party and buy all your friends over
Speaker 1: and you know, have loads of great food and everything.
Speaker 1: But I was like, I think that's wrong, Like I
Speaker 1: know that, so Howard, and she said something really beautiful.
Speaker 1: She shows she goes we I felt like we celebrated
Speaker 1: it last night. And I was like, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: And she was like, well, we had our friends over.
Speaker 1: I cooked for them from the cookbook. I made meals
Speaker 1: for them. They all really.
Speaker 4: Enjoyed the food.
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, but we didn't like that
Speaker 1: it was it was just like it was just and
Speaker 1: she was like, that's how I like to celebrate it,
Speaker 1: because I got to cook what I love for people
Speaker 1: I love and they appreciated it, and that was me
Speaker 1: celebrating it.
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh wow, I could have just me.
Speaker 1: And it was just this really interesting thing about this communication,
Speaker 1: Like and I said to my wife, I said, after
Speaker 1: I said, please inform me of things like that, because
Speaker 1: I would have no idea like if you don't let
Speaker 1: me in, if you don't invite me into that space
Speaker 1: of this is how I like to be celebrated, and
Speaker 1: she goes, you know what, I don't think I've thought
Speaker 1: about it until you ask me right now. And so
Speaker 1: it was a joint discovery. And I think I think
Speaker 1: if people look at their relationship, it is not like, oh,
Speaker 1: you've kept me out and you haven't let me in
Speaker 1: and you don't tell me. It's actually more like we're
Speaker 1: actually just figuring this out, like both of us on
Speaker 1: an awareness level of figuring this out.
Speaker 2: I think that's such a beautiful story. I'm smiling. I
Speaker 2: was so struck when I first met Lollie, who I've
Speaker 2: been with her for a little over ten years now,
Speaker 2: and she has such a curiosity one of the things
Speaker 2: that attracted me very early on to her about everything.
Speaker 2: She's just so interested in life, people understanding them. And
Speaker 2: this was completely different than the experience I had in
Speaker 2: my family. I was never necessarily asked what I thought
Speaker 2: about certain things or how I was experiencing certain things
Speaker 2: that more or less kind of we operated with this
Speaker 2: kind of unified front in my family with a lot
Speaker 2: of projection if one member felt or thought this thing,
Speaker 2: there was the assumption that everyone thought her felt that
Speaker 2: same way. So now flash forward decades and I'm with Lollie,
Speaker 2: who's always curiously asking me my perspective on things, how
Speaker 2: I'm experiencing things, what I think, and I was so
Speaker 2: shocked and at a loss, if I'm honest, day I
Speaker 2: had a hard time answering a lot of her curiosity
Speaker 2: in the beginning because I didn't know.
Speaker 3: I didn't stop to think.
Speaker 2: So I'm imagining myself being asked how I would have
Speaker 2: liked to celebrate something, and that would have been a
Speaker 2: gift of exploration for me to have and to consider.
Speaker 3: And I think what you're sharing.
Speaker 2: I had a moment with Jenna, So my third partner
Speaker 2: and I the other day in one of these very
Speaker 2: similar moments that you're describing, and we were sitting in
Speaker 2: the car and she was very quiet, and I noticed
Speaker 2: a pattern of when we're out, typically driving in a car,
Speaker 2: and that's a lot of the time where her and
Speaker 2: I are out doing things together, she's very quiet. And
Speaker 2: so I'm over here conditioned from my childhood to assign
Speaker 2: the meaning to quiet, which is danger bad silent treatment.
Speaker 3: So you upset.
Speaker 2: Someone because this is the experience at time, and time
Speaker 2: happened again in my childhood. So I'm sitting in car
Speaker 2: and this is I mean, we've been together now for
Speaker 2: over two years, Jenna and I, So for two years now,
Speaker 2: I'm driving in silent car rides. I've not said a word,
Speaker 2: just in my mind worried, Oh gosh, maybe we have
Speaker 2: nothing to talk about, Like is in this like I
Speaker 2: have things on my mind. I would try to engage conversation.
Speaker 2: She would give me one word answer. So finally, just
Speaker 2: last week, I said, I just want to bring something up.
Speaker 2: I notice that you're quite quiet when we are out
Speaker 2: in the car together, you know. And it opened up
Speaker 2: a beautiful you know, self awareness opportunity or a couple
Speaker 2: awareness where she.
Speaker 3: Was like, oh, you know what, I guess I am.
Speaker 2: I really like to just look out the window and
Speaker 2: look at the scenery and listen to the music that
Speaker 2: we have on. It's really as simple as that. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: I spent the better part of two years secretly be worried. Right,
Speaker 2: So I think these are really beautiful examples of how
Speaker 2: simple some of the steps that we can take are
Speaker 2: and also how complicated humans make it because.
Speaker 4: We do project totally. We do.
Speaker 2: We are subjective creatures who are projecting all the time.
Speaker 2: And I'm just sitting at like I have a lot
Speaker 2: of compassion for myself, just all of this suffering that
Speaker 2: you know, causing ourselves without just having the direct conversation
Speaker 2: and communication.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we think we know what someone is thinking, which
Speaker 1: is all based on how we think we feel affected
Speaker 1: by that, right, like we think others are affected by
Speaker 1: things the way we are. And therefore, if someone's quiet,
Speaker 1: we believe they're quiet because if I was quiet, that
Speaker 1: means I'm upset, and therefore if they're quite, they're upset.
Speaker 1: And what's really interesting to me is when we communicate,
Speaker 1: which I'm so glad you're raising that because it sounds basic,
Speaker 1: but it's not because a lot of people, when we communicate,
Speaker 1: we just say, well, I wish you'd talk more in
Speaker 1: the car, I wish you'd just know how you want
Speaker 1: to celebrate your birthday. I wish you'd just tell me
Speaker 1: what you want me to do. And that's not communication.
Speaker 1: Those are almost demand or control mechanisms or like kind
Speaker 1: of they're kind of orders in one sense, like giving
Speaker 1: an order to someone as opposed to saying hey, you know,
Speaker 1: because of how I've grown up, I feel when someone
Speaker 1: goes quiet, it means there's something wrong. What does it
Speaker 1: mean for you?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Why is that important for you? And I think that's
Speaker 1: what communication is. It's a safe space to explore and
Speaker 1: be curious. And one of the things you brought about
Speaker 1: earlier was this idea of how the nervous system seeks familiarity.
Speaker 1: And what's really interesting is on the cover you talk
Speaker 1: about finding peace. And what's really interesting is that all
Speaker 1: of our familiarity is chaos. And so when there is
Speaker 1: peace in a relationship, when there is quote unquote boredom
Speaker 1: in a relationship, when there's quote unquote stillness in a relationship,
Speaker 1: a lot of us who are familiar with chaos go,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, what's going on? Because we're familiar with it.
Speaker 1: And so I want to clarify what familiarity means because
Speaker 1: I think we think familiarity means a good thing, but
Speaker 1: we don't realize familiarity just means what you're used to.
Speaker 1: And so talk to me about how should we respond
Speaker 1: to peaceful scenarios when we're familiar with chaos.
Speaker 2: I appreciate this because I think this is such a
Speaker 2: common experience. Myself included it with a lot of stress,
Speaker 2: overwhelming stress in the home. There was a sense of
Speaker 2: home that I would receive when in stressful relationships or
Speaker 2: when interacting with stressful individuals. So familiarity really.
Speaker 3: Simply is repetition.
Speaker 2: It's that which is predictable, right, It's kind of thinking
Speaker 2: of the neural networks. Even I think that is very
Speaker 2: common in our in our language. I can't think of
Speaker 2: the order it, you know what I mean? Dialogue these days,
Speaker 2: So understanding again, familiar is repeat it right. It doesn't
Speaker 2: mean there is no good bad label that we.
Speaker 3: Can put on it.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people who have had chaotic early
Speaker 2: experiences will exactly like you beautifully said, get to those moments,
Speaker 2: even meet a person and without that rush of chemicals
Speaker 2: will assume it's not the appropriate relationship. And one of
Speaker 2: the biggest takeaways I hope that people get from reading
Speaker 2: this book is kind of two part, first being the
Speaker 2: awareness that the way we're defining and relating to other individuals,
Speaker 2: like I said at the beginning, is more of an
Speaker 2: imprint or an artifact of our past than an objective
Speaker 2: reality about our present. And then once we understand that.
Speaker 2: I think that could open the door for some of
Speaker 2: us to become aware that what we are seeking and
Speaker 2: recreating in terms of familiarity repetition is grounded more in stress, chaos,
Speaker 2: maybe even trauma, unmet needs than in a grounded, secure,
Speaker 2: peaceful love, because that's what we're really looking to create,
Speaker 2: and understanding that our nervous system is playing a foundational
Speaker 2: role in that meaning, if I'm not able as an
Speaker 2: individual to self soothe or to find safe, secure others
Speaker 2: with which I can coregulate with, if I'm not able
Speaker 2: to create safety in myself, then chances are I'm not
Speaker 2: going to be able to interact with another human and
Speaker 2: find that secure grounding. So when I understand again the
Speaker 2: role that I'm playing, the role that my nervous system
Speaker 2: is playing, that my nervous system is playing a role,
Speaker 2: right that I can't just wish my way into a calm,
Speaker 2: graunded relationship. I actually have to teach my body how
Speaker 2: to have one. And I also understand that that does
Speaker 2: not mean that I won't experience conflict or disagreement or disconnection,
Speaker 2: because I think sometimes after we unlearn and create the
Speaker 2: possibility of even being safe and secure. I think sometimes
Speaker 2: people then have the immediate expectation that a safe, secure
Speaker 2: relationship is one without conflict, without disagreement, without unmet needs
Speaker 2: in any given moment, because things need to be negotiated,
Speaker 2: and that is included in a safely grounded relationship in actuality,
Speaker 2: because anytimes two individuals who are uniquely different are trying
Speaker 2: to relate and navigate life and make decisions for a
Speaker 2: future of shared interest, there are going to be those
Speaker 2: moments of disconnection. So the goal is not to remove
Speaker 2: or expect those to not be present. How can I
Speaker 2: always find my way back to safety and security is
Speaker 2: the best question.
Speaker 3: How can I repair.
Speaker 2: After these moments of explosion or these moments of disconnection,
Speaker 2: assuming that they will still be present, and how can
Speaker 2: I always continue to expand that foundation within my relationship
Speaker 2: of safety and security doesn't mean that there won't be
Speaker 2: upsetting emotions or moments of dysregulation, but we can as
Speaker 2: a system returned back to that peace and that grounded
Speaker 2: state of calm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you know on that point of when
Speaker 1: there is love? I think we always hear things like
Speaker 1: you'll know when you know, and you know you just
Speaker 1: feel it, like no matter what you love someone like
Speaker 1: I find that it's so interesting because, like we said,
Speaker 1: you're not familiar with peace, so when peace comes up,
Speaker 1: you create chaos. We're not familiar with love, and so
Speaker 1: how do you know love is there? Because you may
Speaker 1: not be familiar from your childhood with what it feels
Speaker 1: like to be loved unconditionally or wonderfully in whatever way.
Speaker 4: That means, how do we then find it? How do
Speaker 4: we then.
Speaker 1: Notice it because we don't necessarily have a clear experience
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really it's a beautiful question even to consider,
Speaker 2: and a painful, I think question too to come to
Speaker 2: the reality that we might not have that embodied memory,
Speaker 2: if you will, of what it actually feels like to
Speaker 2: be in this sense of safety and security and love.
Speaker 2: And I think maybe this it would benefit a discussion
Speaker 2: of love, maybe really generally, because I think when people
Speaker 2: think of love, and it's not to say it's not
Speaker 2: a feeling. The the way I define love at least
Speaker 2: is it is a feeling in connection with an action, right,
Speaker 2: It's a sense of compassion, of consideration of let me
Speaker 2: even bring it back scond, of awareness of another individual,
Speaker 2: and then the ability to be considerate, compassionate, not only
Speaker 2: in thought and feeling right, Like I can sit here
Speaker 2: and feel a sense of love for you, but I
Speaker 2: believe love extends beyond that into an action, right, Am
Speaker 2: I able to then show up in this embodiment, whether
Speaker 2: it just to support you in being present with you
Speaker 2: when you're in an emotion that's upsetting or overwhelming, whether
Speaker 2: it's to show up in more active or objective support
Speaker 2: of you in whatever way that it is that you
Speaker 2: might need it, So to know if we're able to
Speaker 2: or when in which we're in that space. Again, all
Speaker 2: of this goes back to the body, because unless we're
Speaker 2: present in our body in our emotions, unless we're able
Speaker 2: to feel right, to attune emotionally, to hold space and
Speaker 2: to sense that there is someone else that I want
Speaker 2: to consider and to show those levels of care, we
Speaker 2: have to be grounded in our body, to connect with
Speaker 2: our heart, to connect with the emotion of compassion and care,
Speaker 2: and then to act from that embodied place, Because again,
Speaker 2: what we're looking for is that presence that's a loving
Speaker 2: action in and of itself, outside of the other ways,
Speaker 2: of course, that we can more objectively support someone. So
Speaker 2: again I think it's if we're looking for that roller
Speaker 2: coaster of biochemical emotions, if we're looking for us to
Speaker 2: be like, you know, kind of hit over the head
Speaker 2: with this like love spell, I think again we're going
Speaker 2: to be looking for something that might not necessarily exist.
Speaker 2: Because again, I think love happens in those grounded moments
Speaker 2: we're able to extend space and awareness that there is
Speaker 2: someone else that I can and want to care about.
Speaker 2: Because when we're in a survival mode, when we're not
Speaker 2: calm and ground it and safe and secure in our
Speaker 2: own body, we can't even consider a perspective outside of
Speaker 2: our own, let alone show up and care and compassion
Speaker 2: of that perspective or that individual and their best interest.
Speaker 2: So again, foundationally in the body, I can't make a
Speaker 2: case enough for how important it is to be in
Speaker 2: loving action. We have to be connected to our body,
Speaker 2: our heart in particular, we have to be grounded and
Speaker 2: safe in our nervous system and responsive in how we
Speaker 2: choose to show up.
Speaker 1: This point about being connected to your body is so valuable,
Speaker 1: and I recently discovered I felt deeply for the first
Speaker 1: time a disconnect I had with mine and it came
Speaker 1: from my childhood. So I remember when I was young,
Speaker 1: I would say probably preteens and maybe into my early
Speaker 1: teenage years, there was a I used to experience my
Speaker 1: heart beating fast, losing my breath, like feeling quite in
Speaker 1: physically what would be considered like even like pain in
Speaker 1: the heart region, like tight chestedness, like physically, and I
Speaker 1: remember I would tell my mom, and my mom would
Speaker 1: take me to the doctors, and we go to the doctors.
Speaker 1: They'd wire me up with certain like technology or tools
Speaker 1: that would measure my heart rate and things like that,
Speaker 1: and they'd tell me to wear it for the next
Speaker 1: twenty four hours, sometimes the next seventy two hours, and
Speaker 1: I'd wear it to school or whatever would be under
Speaker 1: my shirt, I remember, And then they'd look at the
Speaker 1: records and they'd be like, he's absolutely fine, like he's fine,
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, I'm pretty sure I'm not fine,
Speaker 1: Like I definitely feel something. I don't feel it for
Speaker 1: seventy two hours, but I do have moments where I
Speaker 1: feel it. And my mom would be like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm going to get you checked again. Because she'd
Speaker 1: always care, and my mom's always been a very loving individual,
Speaker 1: and so she'd introduce me to more specialists, and they'd
Speaker 1: always come back and just say, oh, maybe he needs
Speaker 1: inhaler because he has asthma. And then I remember testing
Speaker 1: that for a bit and that wasn't it, and they
Speaker 1: were like, oh no, sorry, we gave him an ala.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that, And so they wouldn't know, and I
Speaker 1: forgot about that. I think I actually started living so
Speaker 1: disconnected from my body because I didn't know what that meant,
Speaker 1: and so I didn't want to feel it anymore. And
Speaker 1: so I started real living quite cerebrally and mentally, and
Speaker 1: I got fascinated with mastering the mind and everything else
Speaker 1: that I've done in my life. And it's so interesting
Speaker 1: that recently I was sitting with my wife and we
Speaker 1: were talking about this and I was like, I was
Speaker 1: experiencing anxiety, and I was experiencing nervousness and I was
Speaker 1: experiencing stress. And when I was ten years old, twenty
Speaker 1: six years ago, no one was talking about those things
Speaker 1: and doctors, no one was telling me that. And where
Speaker 1: I grew up in England, like I didn't know anyone
Speaker 1: who had a therapist until even recently, so I didn't
Speaker 1: have a therapist that was telling me that, and I
Speaker 1: feel like I focused to live outside of my body
Speaker 1: for so long because I couldn't make sense of it,
Speaker 1: and because authorities and elders and experts in my life
Speaker 1: couldn't validate an experience that I was having. It almost
Speaker 1: made me feel stupid for having it when I was
Speaker 1: a kid. And now I look back and I go, no,
Speaker 1: wonder I lost touch with my body, And so getting
Speaker 1: back in touch with my body again is looking back
Speaker 1: at something at childhood which I lost, and now in
Speaker 1: my life today I feel so much more closely connected
Speaker 1: with it again where I'm like, ah, I can spot stress.
Speaker 1: Oh that isn't sat Okay, I know what's going on.
Speaker 1: I know breath work. Now, I have my meditation tools,
Speaker 1: I have my toolkit to help me, but I can
Speaker 1: now experience all of it in my body. If I'm
Speaker 1: waking up earlier or I'm having disrupted sleep, I know
Speaker 1: it's because I'm stressed about something in my daytime. So
Speaker 1: does that make any sense? With this connected body?
Speaker 2: I'm shaking my head so whole heartily, Jay, because that
Speaker 2: feeling that I descripped earlier in my chest very young,
Speaker 2: I remember being a very little kid sitting They're usually
Speaker 2: laying awake at night when a lot of anxiety would
Speaker 2: happen for me, I now looking back, believe was anxiety.
Speaker 3: And I was emotionally.
Speaker 2: Alone, so completely overwhelmed, and I lived then with near
Speaker 2: constant anxiety.
Speaker 3: Up through my twenties.
Speaker 2: I had panic attack after panic attack, and so two
Speaker 2: things that translated to a general disconnect from my body,
Speaker 2: so much so that when I've been an athlete my
Speaker 2: whole life, I played softball through college and generally lived
Speaker 2: in cities, walked things like that, try to keep myself active.
Speaker 2: Anytime I would be doing a more vigorous movement and
Speaker 2: my heart rate would start to elevate and my body
Speaker 2: would start to mimic the panic attack feelings, I would
Speaker 2: start to immediately think I was gonna have a panic attack.
Speaker 3: I need to avoid it.
Speaker 2: So over time, gradually I start to even limit not
Speaker 2: only generally how much time I spend in my body,
Speaker 2: how much time I was moving, because certain movements would
Speaker 2: mimic and bring me back. So any time I would
Speaker 2: feel a discomfort, especially in my heart, oh, avoid that
Speaker 2: exercise that's not for me. And so over time disconnected
Speaker 2: from my body, avoiding anything that could help me reconnect
Speaker 2: with my body because it felt too much like anxiety
Speaker 2: living that same embodied way away from my emotions on
Speaker 2: my spaceship like I call it. Yet my number one
Speaker 2: complaint in relationship after a relationship was how emotionally disconnected
Speaker 2: I felt, just like we've been talking about, pointed the
Speaker 2: finger outside of myself. It must be the person I'm picking.
Speaker 2: You're not able to meet me on my emotional level.
Speaker 2: Onto the next relationship where lo and behold after a
Speaker 2: couple months of honeymoon and those you know chemicals were
Speaker 2: off and that I was back into were disconnected again,
Speaker 2: not seeing how all of this connected back to my childhood.
Speaker 2: Overwhelmed with emotion, my body and the emotions which were
Speaker 2: totally normal too much for me to handle. I created
Speaker 2: this disconnect that I then lived in on this spaceship.
Speaker 2: And then I held everyone rep reponsible for that disconnection
Speaker 2: that I was playing a part in creating. And again,
Speaker 2: if that isn't for me, was an invitation to rebuild.
Speaker 2: And I think this is the other side of the
Speaker 2: coin here. All that awareness was beautiful. Now I'm still
Speaker 2: tasked with the daily commitment of reconnecting and living in
Speaker 2: my body and there are a lot of moments where
Speaker 2: I still meet whether it's physical discomfort emotional discomfort, because
Speaker 2: now I have a lot of tension, that I carry
Speaker 2: a lot of muscles and hunched posture, that I'm always
Speaker 2: trying to stretch and work out of my body, and
Speaker 2: that physical discomfort makes me want to say, you know what,
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this today, I'll do this tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Yet staying committed to releasing that tension, same thing emotionally,
Speaker 2: feeling really vulnerable and uncomfortable being emotionally vulnerable and asking
Speaker 2: for the support I need, but knowing that that's what's
Speaker 2: going to create that level of attunement that I'm looking for.
Speaker 2: So all of this for me remains a daily commitment
Speaker 2: because even though logically I can stay here and on
Speaker 2: podcasts after podcasts how important these things are. Yet all
Speaker 2: of this wiring and this discomfort and this vulnerability and
Speaker 2: all of these beliefs are still present. That it is
Speaker 2: a conscious, intentional choice every day for me to say no.
Speaker 3: Nicole.
Speaker 2: Foundationally, your day begins in your body, whether it's just
Speaker 2: you know, twenty to thirty minutes of gentle stretching and
Speaker 2: silent reflection, I'm in my own vessel before I then
Speaker 2: go and serve the world. And that isn't to say
Speaker 2: that my email isn't distracting me. I don't have all
Speaker 2: of these things I should be doing running through my
Speaker 2: head every morning. But I use this as an illustration,
Speaker 2: and again because I think some people think that oh,
Speaker 2: awareness equals oh, I just shift and change and become
Speaker 2: right this new person. And especially if we're talking about
Speaker 2: reconnecting with our body and developing the ability to tolerate
Speaker 2: stress and upsetting emotions, that awareness is going to take
Speaker 2: a lot of practice to put into place the tools
Speaker 2: and the resources in our bodies so that we can
Speaker 2: begin to contain the discomfort.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that negativity you've just sparked for me,
Speaker 1: This thought that recently I've been practicing more as well,
Speaker 1: is that that negativity we feel externality when we don't
Speaker 1: like someone or someone's causing us pain, we start seeing
Speaker 1: our body in the same way. And so I found
Speaker 1: that often, even though I consider myself to be quite
Speaker 1: a positive, uplifting person for myself and for the people
Speaker 1: around me, with my body, I've actually sometimes have a
Speaker 1: very different relationship. And I found myself critiquing my body.
Speaker 1: I found myself being negative about it if I've got
Speaker 1: a cold or if I've developed Over Christmas, I had
Speaker 1: a really bad parunculated tonsil, like it was really really
Speaker 1: swollen and huge. You could see it if I just
Speaker 1: opened my mouth, and I was just constantly like God,
Speaker 1: just go away, like I got so much to deal with,
Speaker 1: Like you know, I need to use my voice for
Speaker 1: my work. And I had this negative cycle.
Speaker 4: And one of my.
Speaker 1: Friends, who's a healer and you know, a wonderful teacher
Speaker 1: in his own right, he said to me it was
Speaker 1: just like Jay, like, you know, you need to take
Speaker 1: the medicine and you need and I'd been taking at
Speaker 1: this point, I'd been taking antibiotics and everything, and nothing
Speaker 1: was It wasn't going away. I was like, been on
Speaker 1: a course for two weeks, like nothing's happening. And he
Speaker 1: gave me some natural remedies, but he was saying, obviously,
Speaker 1: you need to do the right remedy and take the
Speaker 1: right practice. But he was like, you need to change
Speaker 1: your relationship with this, Like your relationship with your body
Speaker 1: is your body's your best friend. It's telling you, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling so good right now. There's I'm trying
Speaker 1: to warn you of something. I'm trying to let you
Speaker 1: know what's going on, and you're telling your body to
Speaker 1: shut up and go away and get lost and just
Speaker 1: sort it out. And he was just like, just think
Speaker 1: about it differently, like the idea that your body's actually
Speaker 1: trying to help you. If your body is tired because
Speaker 1: you haven't slept enough, guess what your body's saying, take
Speaker 1: some rest. If your body is panicking because you've finally
Speaker 1: done some exercise or done something challenging, it's your body
Speaker 1: saying we're not used to this.
Speaker 4: We need to get used to it.
Speaker 1: And so your body's actually on your side, and even
Speaker 1: pain is helping you recognize that there's something to shift.
Speaker 1: Whether it's your diet, whether it's your and you talk
Speaker 1: about this in the book, but whether it's your diet,
Speaker 1: whether it's your supplements, whether it's activity, whether it's meditation, stillness,
Speaker 1: but we look at it as a net negative signal
Speaker 1: rather than a sign of actual help.
Speaker 2: I'm really really relating to this coming from a childhood
Speaker 2: where there was a lot of not only chronic pain,
Speaker 2: chronic illness, and so for me, any sort of physiological
Speaker 2: symptom near Immediately my mind goes to the possibility of
Speaker 2: or even likelihood of it being a catastrophic even illness.
Speaker 2: And so for so long I on moment, you know,
Speaker 2: the second I sensed a shift or a possible symptom
Speaker 2: or a sickness or something coming on, I would go
Speaker 2: into kind of that fear based oh my gosh, what
Speaker 2: is this? A sign of kind of mentality. And at
Speaker 2: the same time, for me, physical illness was a point
Speaker 2: of connection with my mom because my mom one of
Speaker 2: the moments in time, especially with my older sister who
Speaker 2: suffered from a lot of chronic illness, my mom was
Speaker 2: able to be present when she needed to physically care
Speaker 2: for myself or my siblings. So now, right, I have
Speaker 2: this complicated nature, and I would see a kind of
Speaker 2: a remnant of this through my twenties. When I'm twenty
Speaker 2: years old, right, I have a sinus infection at this
Speaker 2: point know exactly what to take is the same thing
Speaker 2: I've taken for probably the decade before.
Speaker 3: For my sinus infection.
Speaker 2: Yet I have memories of being in the drug store
Speaker 2: in New York calling my mom and saying.
Speaker 3: Oh Mom, I'm sick again. You know what do I need?
Speaker 2: And she was saying, oh, gay Claiton, which is the
Speaker 2: thing I always get, you know, and for me I'm
Speaker 2: understanding now that was a moment where I was looking
Speaker 2: for connection. So how complicated my relationship became with my body?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Where there was a certain almost desire to be sick? Yes,
Speaker 2: because now I can have the love and attention of
Speaker 2: my mom right and then there's a fear of being
Speaker 2: sick because that could mean something catastrophic. Then sometimes in
Speaker 2: my mind went upset with someone else. I go down
Speaker 2: to exactly what I heard my childhood growing up, where
Speaker 2: a statement my mom used to make is you'll miss
Speaker 2: me when I'm gone. So sometimes my mind now will
Speaker 2: fantasize to hurt someone that has hurt me something that
Speaker 2: happens to me typically probably guess but now where I'm sick, Oh, well,
Speaker 2: you'll be upset. Won't you be upset? If something wor
Speaker 2: to really happen to me? How will that be for you?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: In all of this world now, manufacturer created from this
Speaker 2: early experience complicating my relationship with my body and is
Speaker 2: still to this day, I have a lot of unlearning
Speaker 2: that symptoms like you beautifully said, I are just signals,
Speaker 2: not signals of a terminal illness, just a signal. Right,
Speaker 2: So really, for me not only learning how to connect
Speaker 2: with my body, how to unlearn some of these more
Speaker 2: kind of catastrophic beliefs, and how to learn how to
Speaker 2: connect with people outside of me needing someone to physically
Speaker 2: care for me, is all still kind of really a
Speaker 2: complicated mess.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how do you start?
Speaker 1: What are the therapy based, healing based neurological actions and
Speaker 1: habits we can take to rewire that? Because you're so right, Like,
Speaker 1: some people will get ill and then they're they're manifesting
Speaker 1: like I'm going to get cancer, right, Like it's like
Speaker 1: a feeling of like, oh no, this is the worst.
Speaker 1: I was sweeing to someone else the other day who
Speaker 1: said to me, they've really believed that their success is
Speaker 1: one day just going to crumble because they don't deserve it,
Speaker 1: and it's something they've always believed. And so how do
Speaker 1: you unmanifest Like, how do you almost rewire that thought process?
Speaker 1: Because that again is a repetitive thought.
Speaker 2: A belief just going to start there the way I
Speaker 2: simply define a belief, It's a repeated thought grounded in
Speaker 2: our lived experience. So kind of breaking those two kind
Speaker 2: of sections the way we navigate then beliefs, right, because
Speaker 2: we can't just affirm our way out of them. We
Speaker 2: can't just give ourselves a new belief. It doesn't necessarily work.
Speaker 2: Though we can acknowledge that we have repeated certain narratives,
Speaker 2: certain beliefs in our mind. Right, those neurmals works have
Speaker 2: fired outside of our awareness time and time again, and
Speaker 2: we'll continue to fire outside of our awareness time and
Speaker 2: time again the same every time a similar event happens
Speaker 2: that would elicit that sort of interpretation, meaning what we
Speaker 2: do in the moment, We don't anticipate that, oh, these
Speaker 2: beliefs aren't working for me, so I'm just going to shut.
Speaker 3: The volume off and they'll go away. Absolutely not.
Speaker 2: They will occur again the same time a similar experience
Speaker 2: warrants them. What we can do is show up as
Speaker 2: the empowered presence, right, the conscious being, and we can
Speaker 2: choose how much attention we're giving. Right, are we going
Speaker 2: to hook our full attention on and keep repeating the
Speaker 2: belief once it is kind of offered in our mind,
Speaker 2: or are we going to say, oh, right, there's that
Speaker 2: old belief again in my mind? It isn't necessarily accurate
Speaker 2: or true, or I know it's not true, and now
Speaker 2: I can choose somewhere else to put my attention. That's
Speaker 2: the first half. The second half, the more powerful half.
Speaker 2: Why we can't just affirm our way of our belief
Speaker 2: is because of what's happening in our body. Like we
Speaker 2: were talking about earlier, We've validated this experience.
Speaker 3: We feel this to be true.
Speaker 2: So the only way we're going to shift that embodied
Speaker 2: experience is if we begin to make new embodied choices
Speaker 2: to show up in action countering that belief.
Speaker 3: Even before I believe otherwise.
Speaker 2: So, just to use an example common belief, I think
Speaker 2: that is at the core of many of our relational
Speaker 2: habits is how we're not worthy. Right, So the next
Speaker 2: time when you hear all the litany of reasons remind
Speaker 2: you of why you're not worthy, right, we notice it,
Speaker 2: we pull our attention away. Doesn't mean that I'm going
Speaker 2: to feel worthy immediately. Does mean, though, that I can
Speaker 2: show up and begin to show up in actions of worthiness.
Speaker 2: How might someone who is worthy treat themselves generally or
Speaker 2: in this moment.
Speaker 3: And then consistently over time make those choices even before
Speaker 3: you believe you're worthy and knowing somewhere down the line.
Speaker 2: If we weaken that belief network by pulling our attention
Speaker 2: away every time it fires, and if we're now strengthening
Speaker 2: a new belief network by inaction embodying a new choice
Speaker 2: that will allow us to feel differently and maybe affirming
Speaker 2: a new thought, now we have the beginnings of a
Speaker 2: new network that will, over time take over where that
Speaker 2: old network existed.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, I remember kind of discovering this through
Speaker 1: the studies I did when I was a monk. And
Speaker 1: one of the practices that I developed, and this was
Speaker 1: to develop qualities that were recommended for people of spiritual
Speaker 1: culture to have and to reduce the effect of qualities
Speaker 1: that were not seen as aspirational. And so I remember
Speaker 1: writing down my top three to five most repeated thoughts
Speaker 1: around a particular thing, and I'd put a line down
Speaker 1: the middle of a piece of paper, and I would
Speaker 1: write down the script of what my mind currently says
Speaker 1: in that trigger, in that response, in that moment, and
Speaker 1: then for each point I would write an alternative script.
Speaker 1: And the key was the alternative script was not about
Speaker 1: being positive or not about being the opposite. I think
Speaker 1: that's what I've often seen. So for example, if we
Speaker 1: took if we took the basic premise of I'm not
Speaker 1: enough or I'm not worthy, as you just said, and
Speaker 1: on the other side, off you just run under best
Speaker 1: thing in the world Like that doesn't work. Like it
Speaker 1: needs to be more comprehensive and thoughtful than that. It
Speaker 1: needs to be more valuable than that. It may be
Speaker 1: I am worthy as I am, I've always been worthy.
Speaker 1: There's not a moment of becoming worthy. And what I
Speaker 1: found is the more that I researched those, the more
Speaker 1: that I read books like this and created paragraphs to
Speaker 1: support it, and the more I rehearsed it like an actor,
Speaker 1: like a script, you started realizing your script just changed.
Speaker 1: And all that you ever did was memorize an old
Speaker 1: script and learn a new one trade it. That's all
Speaker 1: it was anyway. It was never that one was true
Speaker 1: and one was false. It was just that you had
Speaker 1: a script that you learned from your caregivers since the
Speaker 1: beginning and from the people that loved you first, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you have a new script now.
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting to me that we so deeply
Speaker 1: define ourselves by thinking we are our thoughts, and how
Speaker 1: much our thoughts are seen as non different from ourselves.
Speaker 1: But actually they're scripts. They're just scripts. And which script
Speaker 1: you've read the most and practiced the most and rehearsed
Speaker 1: the most is your reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what we are missing is the
Speaker 2: foundational role that our and other people's body sensations played
Speaker 2: at the creation and repetition right of those scripts. And
Speaker 2: I've been talking a lot about a good old descartes.
Speaker 2: I think therefore, I am and a lot of us
Speaker 2: do have and embody that belief that all of the
Speaker 2: power right is in the mind, and the mind carries
Speaker 2: this reality, and that's so simply not true. All of
Speaker 2: the power actually lives in our body and our instinctual body.
Speaker 2: And what participated in creating those scripts again was what
Speaker 2: was happening in our body and all of the other
Speaker 2: bodies that we're navigating those moments around us.
Speaker 3: And then that continues to be the case.
Speaker 2: We pay most attention to what's going on in our mind,
Speaker 2: not becoming aware that even in the current moment, what
Speaker 2: was happening in our mind was usually activated by the
Speaker 2: shifts in our body, by the fact that our nervous
Speaker 2: system outside of our awareness is always assessing and looking
Speaker 2: for possible threat based on what was once threatening to us.
Speaker 2: So all of these physiological shifts that you and I
Speaker 2: keep focusing on and talking about are initiating for a
Speaker 2: lot of us the thoughts that we then become present
Speaker 2: to in our minds. So until we understand again the
Speaker 2: foundational role that the body continues even to play in
Speaker 2: shaping our thoughts ultimately and shaping our beliefs, and then
Speaker 2: creating the opportunity to change both of those categories of
Speaker 2: thinking and believing, right, we're not going to be able
Speaker 2: to create the shifts ultimately that we want, and when
Speaker 2: we do, that's when I.
Speaker 3: Think we can create incredible transformation.
Speaker 1: One of the things I love doing on the show
Speaker 1: is really clearly defining terms that I think are starting
Speaker 1: to become very mainstream or viral on TikTok or you know,
Speaker 1: these terms that I think often all to get thrown around,
Speaker 1: and so I wanted you to please define for us
Speaker 1: what is a trauma bond, because I feel like that's
Speaker 1: a term that is gaining popularity and gaining traction, but
Speaker 1: often we're not really sure of what it means.
Speaker 4: What is a trauma bond.
Speaker 2: I think a trauma bond is a relationship in which
Speaker 2: dysfunctional habits exist. And I'm giving a very intentionally giving
Speaker 2: a very expanded definition because I know clinically in the
Speaker 2: field for a very long time, trauma bond. I forget
Speaker 2: who it is that coined the term years ago, now Carns,
Speaker 2: I'm forgetting is exact name, but around a relationship in
Speaker 2: which there was abuse, usually active physical or sexual abuse,
Speaker 2: and kind of felt connection or commitment within that relationship.
Speaker 2: And I actually think this kind of mirrors my own
Speaker 2: expansion of definitions such as trauma include it to I
Speaker 2: think categorize the many other versions of trauma bond patterning
Speaker 2: of breaking cycles as I share in this subtitle, that
Speaker 2: exists within relationships. So again, really simply, it's the relational
Speaker 2: pattern that a lot of us learned that was adaptive
Speaker 2: in early childhood and those earlier relationships that we then
Speaker 2: rely on because it's predictable. It includes our identity, it
Speaker 2: includes the predictable identities of all of those that were
Speaker 2: relating to and we rely on that kind of dynamic,
Speaker 2: the felt security in that dynamic. Let me say it
Speaker 2: that way, as our home base, So a trauma bond
Speaker 2: I think applies to a lot of us. I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot of dysfunctional habits that many of us
Speaker 2: are carrying in particularly around emotions and how we relate
Speaker 2: to and navigate emotions in relationships that many of us
Speaker 2: are still experiencing. And to answer a question that maybe
Speaker 2: listeners are having, because sometimes I do then get asked,
Speaker 2: well can you change a trauma bond?
Speaker 3: Is a trauma bond doomed?
Speaker 2: And I will be the first to say that when
Speaker 2: I began my relationship with Lally, it was absolutely had
Speaker 2: a lot of trauma bond patterning. It's what attracted us
Speaker 2: to each other on some level and through dedicated.
Speaker 3: Action on both of our parts.
Speaker 2: I absolutely believe and have seen obviously many other instances
Speaker 2: where trauma bond just like attachment patterns, I think this
Speaker 2: is another very common language in my opinion, at least,
Speaker 2: they are not be all end all categories that are
Speaker 2: you know, kind of for a lifetime or a terminal
Speaker 2: sentence if you will. So, trauma bond again, dysfunctional habits
Speaker 2: that exist in our relationships, typically habits that were once
Speaker 2: adaptive or protective at one time that get repeated that
Speaker 2: can absolutely be changed.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting though what you said that they were
Speaker 1: once protective, and what's really interesting that you said was
Speaker 1: that now.
Speaker 4: They become.
Speaker 1: In the relationship, Oh, that you're even attracted to each
Speaker 1: other because of those like it can even be the
Speaker 1: foundation of why you get together with someone, which is
Speaker 1: even harder to lose because that was what brought together.
Speaker 1: So you almost feel like there's so much value to it.
Speaker 1: So how do you break that cycle?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 1: When it's almost like I'm attracted to you because of
Speaker 1: this trauma bond and we're starting to have that dependence
Speaker 1: on each other, how does one then break that apart
Speaker 1: when it feels like that's the reason you came together.
Speaker 2: This is kind of I think, going down another rabbit
Speaker 2: hole in a sense of attraction, because I think attraction
Speaker 2: is another word, you know, like we were talking about
Speaker 2: earlier in terms of familiarity and habitual right, a lot
Speaker 2: of times that which we think were attracted to is
Speaker 2: really that which is familiar to us, Like it's kind
Speaker 2: of an attraction based on the familiarity principle, if you will.
Speaker 2: So I think when we're considering that aspect, what yes
Speaker 2: does feel familiar and therefore attracts quote unquote us to
Speaker 2: many of the partners that we choose are the habits
Speaker 2: that we are used to, right, not necessarily what we
Speaker 2: want to consciously choose to create. So when we again
Speaker 2: become aware of what we're carrying in, what those early
Speaker 2: dynamics are, then I think we could get a bit
Speaker 2: clearer in terms of whether or not we're attracted to familiarity,
Speaker 2: or whether or not this is someone that we want
Speaker 2: to pursue a future with, and regardless again, because like
Speaker 2: I said, we can become attracted to familiar and then
Speaker 2: create a future that's not familiar at all for the
Speaker 2: two of us, you know, walking in a direction that
Speaker 2: we are intentionally choosing. What empowers that shift is intentionality,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, conscious awareness, each separately or together as partner,
Speaker 2: showing up and saying I'm understand standing, right, these dynamics
Speaker 2: about myself.
Speaker 3: These are the changes that I want.
Speaker 2: To make, right, This is how I see us going
Speaker 2: together in the future. So I think when we have
Speaker 2: the awareness and then have the communication, we can create
Speaker 2: the opportunity right to not only get clearer in terms
Speaker 2: of even if we were attracted to something that was
Speaker 2: familiar doesn't mean that it's not workable for us to
Speaker 2: keep both of our best interests in mind and create
Speaker 2: a future that works for both of us.
Speaker 4: What is what is real?
Speaker 1: An another term or another practice that I think has
Speaker 1: also gained again mass attention more recently is in a
Speaker 1: Child work, and I feel like it's it's really interesting
Speaker 1: because we are starting to gain this language around how
Speaker 1: we have an in a child at all times and
Speaker 1: a lot of our inner child's needs unmet. You talk
Speaker 1: about authentic needs in the book, and now we spend
Speaker 1: our adult life in some way trying to fulfill those
Speaker 1: unmet in a child needs, But often in our adult
Speaker 1: life it can take us in so many different directions
Speaker 1: and keep us lost. What are some of the mistakes
Speaker 1: we make in trying to meet and in a child's needs?
Speaker 1: And what are some of the healthier ways we could
Speaker 1: choose to meet our in a child's needs and even
Speaker 1: if they're needed?
Speaker 2: Yeah, understanding, I think even just this concept of in
Speaker 2: our child, I think this is another one of them
Speaker 2: that we could.
Speaker 3: Upon hearing it inner child.
Speaker 2: I'm an adult, that's right, this doesn't apply to me,
Speaker 2: And I think what kind of an inner child. How
Speaker 2: we can define that is the subconscious space of our
Speaker 2: mind as I've been describing throughout that houses a lot
Speaker 2: of this patterned way of being that was created at
Speaker 2: that time. Right, that was the adaptation in terms of
Speaker 2: how we had to shift and change and what needs
Speaker 2: were getting met or not getting met, and what emotions
Speaker 2: that we had to or aspects of our self expression
Speaker 2: like I described earlier that weren't appropriate or that we
Speaker 2: were shamed right for having. So that ultimately all of
Speaker 2: this now is beneath the surface. It's still for a
Speaker 2: lot of of driving a lot of our reactivity. Even
Speaker 2: those moments that I've been sharing with the dishes, right,
Speaker 2: I'm becoming emotional. Right, that was a moment where my
Speaker 2: owner child was very alive. Right, I was feeling the
Speaker 2: feelings back in time of that unmet need of not
Speaker 2: having that attunement. So when we I think the first
Speaker 2: shift is understanding that that exists inside of us, that
Speaker 2: we are kind of compelled and wired and we do
Speaker 2: have needs, and beginning then to explore how we are
Speaker 2: showing up in service of our needs. Is there space
Speaker 2: in our general day, is there space in our relational
Speaker 2: day to make sure that I'm caring for my physical self.
Speaker 2: Is there room and space for my emotions? Am I
Speaker 2: giving and receiving the support that relationships allow for? And
Speaker 2: do I feel safe to be who I am?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: And chances are if you're not kind of overwhelmingly saying yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm feeling pretty calm, grounded. I can take care of
Speaker 2: my needs, I can share my emotions, we can negotiate
Speaker 2: for future. I'm able to be myself. Then a lot
Speaker 2: of what probably is happening are the habits of our
Speaker 2: inner child, So becoming then clear how it is and
Speaker 2: creating space to break those patterns first, right, kind of
Speaker 2: shifting out of those habitual ways of being and creating
Speaker 2: an opportunity to show up newly and for a lot
Speaker 2: of us, that means even bringing a full circle, learning
Speaker 2: a new relationship with our body, really simplifying it, looking
Speaker 2: into our sleep habits, looking into our nutritional habits, looking
Speaker 2: at how we navigate stress and the impact that it
Speaker 2: has on us, and then creating new habits that can
Speaker 2: better care for our nervous systems that ultimately we can
Speaker 2: be more attuned to our emotions and more able to
Speaker 2: share those with somebody else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the things you talk about in the book,
Speaker 1: which I really resonated with was the seven conditions selves caretaker, overachiever, underachiever, rescue,
Speaker 1: a protector, life of the party, yes person, and hero worshiper.
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about this a lot because I've
Speaker 1: that a lot of people. Naturally, the way we see it,
Speaker 1: they're still playing that role, that role that allowed them
Speaker 1: to feel safe, protected, in control when they were younger.
Speaker 1: They're still demonstrating that role, and often that role today
Speaker 1: can actually lead them to becoming extremely successful, extremely accomplished,
Speaker 1: extremely adored, famous, rich, what everything else? Like, it can
Speaker 1: do so much, but then they almost get exhausted a
Speaker 1: playing that role. Or you recognize it's a role, and
Speaker 1: it was a role that you took on, but it
Speaker 1: was never you. It wasn't the you you wanted to be.
Speaker 1: It was the you you had to be. How do
Speaker 1: you reconcile that? How does someone reconcile whether they're externally
Speaker 1: quote unquote successful or not, just they've recognized now they're like,
Speaker 1: I've been playing this role. Maybe I was the peacekeeper,
Speaker 1: maybe I was the comedian, maybe I was the mediator
Speaker 1: since I was young, But actually I don't like that role.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be that role, but now not
Speaker 1: only as that role been protective of me for so long,
Speaker 1: how do I give it up? Who would I be
Speaker 1: without it? And can I construct another self?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean you're beautifully giving language to not only the questions,
Speaker 2: though to the process of I think reconciliation. So once
Speaker 2: we've become aware that there is a role we're playing,
Speaker 2: which for a lot of us is very shame relieving,
Speaker 2: because I know for me very much identifying with the overachiever,
Speaker 2: very much being validated by society that celebrated many of
Speaker 2: my achievements, I carried a ton of shame as I
Speaker 2: started to feel really disconnected and unfulfilled with this life
Speaker 2: that was supposedly create it to make me feel validated
Speaker 2: and happy and fulfilled. And so when I didn't immediately
Speaker 2: feel that way, I started to worry and wonder what
Speaker 2: was wrong with me? Right, So, without the language to
Speaker 2: have kind of zoomed back and say, oh, well, it's
Speaker 2: understandable you don't feel disconnected to your life, Nicole, because
Speaker 2: you're not authentically living it.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You achieved all of these things in service of seeking
Speaker 2: your mom's attention, seeking your mom's love seeking the sense
Speaker 2: of worthiness in action and in reality. It doesn't represent
Speaker 2: who you authentically are, because in many moments you're not
Speaker 2: even sharing who you authentically are with anyone. So that
Speaker 2: awareness piece, I think, for a lot of us, can
Speaker 2: be hugely shame relieving, though it doesn't shift us into
Speaker 2: maybe the embodied self or the self expression or authentic
Speaker 2: expression that we want and need to create. Right, we
Speaker 2: have to break the habit of being this person, of
Speaker 2: playing this role, of wearing this mask, and create a
Speaker 2: new habit of showing up in our authenticity, which for
Speaker 2: a lot of us is very destabilizing. We've wrapped these identities.
Speaker 2: Some of us even prided ourself. Some of us, like myself,
Speaker 2: created a whole life around this identity that now we're questioning.
Speaker 2: Could feel shameful because we're older now we should know
Speaker 2: who we are and what we want, so that.
Speaker 3: Could feel overwhelming.
Speaker 2: We might need to shed right some of the actual
Speaker 2: identity in service like how we are showing up now,
Speaker 2: we are making like strategically new choices, so we're shedding identity.
Speaker 2: For a lot of us, it means mourning and grieving
Speaker 2: the circumstances that create it. The need for me to
Speaker 2: play that role right, the unmet needs, the aspects of
Speaker 2: myself that I was taught was too unworthy to be expressed.
Speaker 2: So for a lot of us, it's getting curious, it's questioning,
Speaker 2: it's creating the space to grieve and be with our
Speaker 2: pain and the resilience to begin to make new choices,
Speaker 2: because again, all of that is still governed by our body.
Speaker 2: Because now we're going to show up against the expectation
Speaker 2: of a lot of people. We're going to be challenging
Speaker 2: a lot of people, other people's perception of us. We're
Speaker 2: going to be challenging the dynamic like we talked about earlier,
Speaker 2: that was repeated and validated over time, and now we're
Speaker 2: showing going up not playing this role that we've already played.
Speaker 2: And so the stress that we're going to create in
Speaker 2: all of the systems outside of us is going to
Speaker 2: create the scenario where we feel now overwhelmed and before
Speaker 2: we know what, we're right back in those old habits
Speaker 2: so forever.
Speaker 1: On the book, it's called how to Be the Love
Speaker 1: You Seek, break cycles, find peace and heal your relationships.
Speaker 1: Doctor Nicole Lepera the holistic Psychologist on Instagram if you
Speaker 1: don't follow already doctor Nicole. And Nicole, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for giving us a masterclass on this and like
Speaker 1: I said, we've dived into one percent of what's inside
Speaker 1: the book. There is so much more insights this book.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it, and I was very grateful that
Speaker 1: you included my testimonial on the back, which I very
Speaker 1: deeply felt, very deeply in my heart to share with you.
Speaker 1: But I'm so grateful for everything you've shared today, all
Speaker 1: the insights, and thank you for going there with me
Speaker 1: on so many different pathways. I wanted to make sure
Speaker 1: and a call. Is there anything that I didn't ask
Speaker 1: you that you'd love to share, or anything that's on
Speaker 1: your heart right now that you feel compelled to share
Speaker 1: with the community.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you asking.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it as always shot your support. I did
Speaker 2: appreciate the opportunity to kind of go into a lot
Speaker 2: of aspects of my own journey in this conversation. So
Speaker 2: I'm hoping it was of service of course everyone out
Speaker 2: there listening, and I thank you all for tuning in.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Thank you, doctor Nika.
Speaker 1: If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with
Speaker 1: doctor Gable Matte on understanding your trauma and how to
Speaker 1: heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.
Speaker 2: Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a
Speaker 2: tree doesn't go where it's hard and thick, does it.
Speaker 4: It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable