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Speaker 1: State Farming DJ dramals from life as a gringo, No

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Speaker 3: never had.

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Speaker 1: So what do we do with it? Right?

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Speaker 3: educating ourselves on how to not make the same mistakes

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Speaker 1: Like a good neighbor. State Farm?

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Speaker 4: Is there?

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Speaker 1: State Farm? Proud sponsor of Makutura podcast Network. Hey Kelly,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel about moving?

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Speaker 3: Oh? It always seems like it's going to be exciting,

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Speaker 3: but it's always a drag.

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Speaker 1: I know, right, It's like there's always one more box

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Speaker 1: of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And by mathematical induction that means we all have infinite.

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Speaker 1: It totally checks out. I mean I have like infinite

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Speaker 1: back pain for my last move.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I wish I had a mobile home so that

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't have to pack everything up every time.

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Speaker 1: That is a genius solution. I mean, you move more stuff,

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Speaker 1: but you do less work because you take your whole

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Speaker 1: house with you exactly.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if it's scales.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, I'm thinking like mobile neighborhoods, mobile cities, maybe like

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Speaker 1: mobile planets.

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Speaker 3: Earth is just one big mobile home.

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Speaker 1: Man, I didn't realize we lived in a cosmic trailer park.

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Speaker 5: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I once moved

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Speaker 1: across the Atlantic seven times in four years. Seriously, seriously.

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Speaker 1: This was when I was a junior professor and just

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Speaker 1: getting started at the Large Hadron Collider and teaching on

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Speaker 1: the West coast of the United States. So we actually

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Speaker 1: had a house in France and a house in California,

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Speaker 1: and we had to go back and forth and back

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Speaker 1: and forth and back and farth and back and forth

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Speaker 1: and back and forth. It almost drove my family crazy.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, did you have kids at that point?

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Speaker 1: We had two young children, one of whom was born

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Speaker 1: in Switzerland. Oh my goodness, I know, it's amazing. I'm

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Speaker 1: not divorced.

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Speaker 3: It is, it is. I shouldn't have said it is

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Speaker 3: so quickly, but Well, I'm Kelly Wiener Smith and I'm

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Speaker 3: a parasitologist, and it's amazing that I'm not divorced. Also

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Speaker 3: because I moved with my husband four times during my

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Speaker 3: PhD to different states. But you know, I used to

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Speaker 3: think that was bad. And now I'm going to go

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Speaker 3: downstairs and tell Zach later how easy he has it.

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Speaker 3: So thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: That's good. That's my goal is to make other marriages

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Speaker 1: look good.

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Speaker 3: We appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Well. Welcome to the podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 1: in which we talk about all the crazy and amazing

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Speaker 1: things that we find out there in the universe, moving

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Speaker 1: here and there, taking our brains from the tiniest little

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Speaker 1: particles down to the quantum realm, to the vast planets

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Speaker 1: of the outer Solar System and all the way to superclusters.

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Speaker 1: Our goal is to embrace everything we know and that

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Speaker 1: we don't know, and explain all of it to you.

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Speaker 1: And as you might have guessed today on the program,

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Speaker 1: Jorge is not here, so we have our fabulous guest host,

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Speaker 1: Kelly Weinersmith joining us to talk about all these things

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Speaker 1: and ask good questions.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Daniel, I'm excited to be back. I had fun

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Speaker 3: last time.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, great, well, thanks very much for joining us. So

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Speaker 1: we started off joking about moving houses and moving planets.

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Speaker 1: But this is something I think is actually really interesting,

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Speaker 1: is thinking about how the planets in our Solar system

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Speaker 1: got where they are and whether or not they have

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Speaker 1: ever moved.

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Speaker 3: I personally love this question because it's one of those

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Speaker 3: questions that, like the fact that we have anything that

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Speaker 3: even vaguely resembles an answer makes me sort of proud

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Speaker 3: to be a human. Like, how can we even think

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Speaker 3: about these sorts of questions and collect data to answer

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Speaker 3: these questions? It just seems so mind blowing to begin

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Speaker 3: with the fact that we have any answers, even preliminary answers,

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Speaker 3: blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's super fascinating that we even know

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Speaker 1: to ask these questions, right, Like, you look at the

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Speaker 1: Solar System and we have the planets, and they don't

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Speaker 1: seem to be changing from year to year. We have

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Speaker 1: thousands of years of astronomical records, and so it seems

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Speaker 1: sort of stable. So it's sort of absurd even to ask, like,

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Speaker 1: could the planets have ever been in another configuration? Could

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Speaker 1: the Solar system have looked different. It's like very natural

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Speaker 1: to think, oh, things are going around the Sun. They've

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Speaker 1: been going around the Sun. Of course they were always

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Speaker 1: in the same orientation. But something that's happened over the

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Speaker 1: last just couple of decades is that we've had a

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Speaker 1: chance to glimpse other solar systems. For thousands of years,

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Speaker 1: we've only ever seen hours we had like one example.

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Speaker 1: Now we're seeing lots and lots of other solar systems,

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Speaker 1: and this gives us a clue that solar systems can

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Speaker 1: look different and that there might be a lot of activity,

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Speaker 1: that they're actually quite volatile.

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Speaker 3: That is super exciting. So for our sample size for

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Speaker 3: these like how many solar systems can we see in

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Speaker 3: enough detail where we can like count all of the

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Speaker 3: planets and get a bit of a sense for what

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Speaker 3: those planets are like? Are we talking hundreds, thousands, millions?

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Speaker 3: How big is our data set here?

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Speaker 1: It's exciting me because it's growing so rapidly, Like the

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Speaker 1: first exoplanets were discovered just a few decades ago, and

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Speaker 1: now we have thousands, not yet millions. Someday, astronomers we'll

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Speaker 1: get to play with a data set of millions of

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Speaker 1: solar systems and ask really detailed questions. But we have

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Speaker 1: thousands of solar systems that we can look at and

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Speaker 1: we see weird stuff in those solar systems that we

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Speaker 1: don't see in our solar system, and that makes us wonder, like,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, are those solar systems weird? Or is

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Speaker 1: our solar system weird? I need to know the answer,

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Speaker 1: and so today on the podcast, we'll be asking the

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Speaker 1: question has our Solar system look different? In particular, did

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Speaker 1: Jupiter once have a different orbit?

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Speaker 3: And that's a pretty huge question, right because Jupiter is

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Speaker 3: like the biggest planet out there, so where it goes

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Speaker 3: has a big impact.

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Speaker 1: From one point of view, you could imagine it's basically

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Speaker 1: the only planet other than the Sun. Jupiter has like

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Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of all the mass in the Solar system.

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Speaker 1: Everything else is basically a detail compared to Jupiter. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a big deal. If Jupiter had been in a

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Speaker 1: different place, everything would be different. And so, as usual,

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Speaker 1: I was curious whether people had this in their minds,

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Speaker 1: like have people imagined the possibility that Jupiter could be

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Speaker 1: in a different place? Is that something people have thought about,

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Speaker 1: have heard about? So I went out there to the

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Speaker 1: wilds of the Internet, and I asked people, Hey, do

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Speaker 1: you know the answer to this tough physics question that

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Speaker 1: astronomers are struggling over. Use, no preparation, no googling allowed,

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Speaker 1: Just tell me off the top of your head. Here's

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Speaker 1: what people had to say.

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Speaker 6: I guess, No, there were impacts off I guess asteroids

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Speaker 6: and or comets, and I maybe even bigger objects in

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Speaker 6: the past. So I think the orbit of Jupiter was

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Speaker 6: a different one two been years ago.

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Speaker 7: No, I think it was, but I think it used

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Speaker 7: to be a lot closer, and then it moved out

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Speaker 7: through collisions and near collisions.

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Speaker 8: I think Jupiter used to be in a different orbit.

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Speaker 9: I know Uranus rotates about its axis in a way

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Speaker 9: that sideways compared to the other planets.

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Speaker 8: What I'm not sure if what I think happened is

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Speaker 8: that Uranus and Jupiter collided at some point.

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Speaker 4: I suspect that Jupiter has been in its current orbit

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Speaker 4: for quite some time, speaking on the scale of the

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Speaker 4: formation of our Solar system, but I would not at

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Speaker 4: all be surprised if it had moved around somewhat during

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Speaker 4: the early formation period of our Solar system.

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Speaker 10: Say, yes, well, nothing is permanent, so I guess it's

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Speaker 10: at the origin it was part of the the Sun

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Speaker 10: or a giant cloud of gas. But to me, well,

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Speaker 10: it's quite stable orbits, and I don't see why it

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Speaker 10: should change except for minor changes such as collision with

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Speaker 10: other objects. But I would say.

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Speaker 11: Yes, no, no. Jupiter at some point was setting towards

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Speaker 11: the Sun, but it kind of got locked in by Saturn,

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Speaker 11: probably in interaction with Saturn something like that. I don't know.

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Speaker 11: Now you caught me at guard here.

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Speaker 12: I don't think that Jupiter has always been in its

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Speaker 12: current orbit. I think it formed much closer to the Sun,

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Speaker 12: and as it migrated out into the Solar System, it

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Speaker 12: cleared a lot of the debris and comets and asteroids

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Speaker 12: and dust and everything out of its way and made

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Speaker 12: things a little bit more stable here in the inner

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Speaker 12: Solar system, so life could form. But I don't think

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Speaker 12: that it started out where it currently is.

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Speaker 13: I'm gonna say no. I guess, being it's so big,

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Speaker 13: it could well have picked up a lot of stuff

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Speaker 13: through its time, and as it, you know, it picks up,

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Speaker 13: more stuff gets impacted, and I guess its gravitational forces

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Speaker 13: would interact with other planets and stuff around, so therefore

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Speaker 13: it get knocked off and moved off its orbit quite regularly.

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Speaker 8: Maybe, I think almost certainly. No, I think the current

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Speaker 8: model of how the Solar System was formed actually relies

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Speaker 8: on Jupiter migrating inward closer to the Sun and then

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Speaker 8: further away.

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Speaker 10: I believe Jupiter has moved from its original orbit. I

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Speaker 10: think the original orbit was closer to the Sun.

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Speaker 1: All right, Wow, those are some great answers from our listeners.

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Speaker 3: When you heard that this was even a question that

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Speaker 3: people were thinking about, did you have a like, oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh moment or did it just seem like an

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Speaker 3: obvious question for you to be asking.

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Speaker 1: I had an oh my gosh moment and a hope

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Speaker 1: because I thought, ooh, that would be super cool if

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Speaker 1: Jupiter wasn't always in its current orbit. Because one of

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Speaker 1: the fun things for me in science is revealing surprises.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: If you ask a question and then the answer is on, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of boring Jupiter's always been there, that's not

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Speaker 1: nearly as fun as oh my gosh. It turns out

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Speaker 1: there's a crazy history here and we have revealed it.

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Speaker 1: Like you were saying earlier, it's incredible that we could,

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Speaker 1: like by gathering small clues left by these crazy cosmic

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Speaker 1: events actually reconstruct something that happened billions of years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's like solving a billion year old murder mystery.

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Speaker 3: As a biologist, every once in a while, we'll have

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Speaker 3: discussions about like what makes humans different than other animals,

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Speaker 3: and you know, clear being able to think about questions

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Speaker 3: like this is one of those things that like, certainly

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Speaker 3: we're the only species who's wondering that on our planet.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. So it's super fun and I was really hoping

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Speaker 1: that the answer would be something crazy. So it's pretty

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Speaker 1: interesting to learn about. And I've also really been enjoying

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Speaker 1: following this exil planet discovery seeing these other Solar systems,

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Speaker 1: these other like potential homes for aliens where life could

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Speaker 1: be really different because the planets are so different from ours.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're sort of like trapped in this colloquial

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Speaker 1: way of thinking that our kinds of planets are the

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Speaker 1: kinds of planets you have, like small rocky planets in

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Speaker 1: the Inner Solar System and big gas giants and the outside.

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Speaker 1: And now it's possible to imagine other kinds of scenarios.

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Speaker 3: So is our configuration a typical configuration.

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Speaker 1: It turns out it's not. When we look at other

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Speaker 1: solar systems, we see something really weird. First of all,

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Speaker 1: we see that most solar systems have a lot more

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Speaker 1: planets very close to their star. Like between Mercury and

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Speaker 1: the Sun there's basically nothing, But in other solar systems

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Speaker 1: there are lots of planets packed in there, And in particular,

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Speaker 1: we find these things called hot jupiters. Not hot because

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Speaker 1: they're like, you know, big on Instagram or they're really curvy,

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Speaker 1: hot because they're really close to the Sun. Like, we

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Speaker 1: find these planets in the other solar systems that are

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Speaker 1: really big, like Jupiter size and gas planets, but they

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Speaker 1: orbit the star in just like hours or days and

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Speaker 1: like a fraction of the distance between the Sun and Mercury.

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Speaker 1: So that's a really weird phenomenon to see.

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Speaker 3: Shouldn't they like suck each other into each other pretty quickly?

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Speaker 3: What's the good physics word for that? How do they

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Speaker 3: stay separated if they're both huge and attracting each other

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Speaker 3: and are so close.

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Speaker 1: No, suck each other in is exactly the right physics

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Speaker 1: word to use, And that's exactly the question people are asking.

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Speaker 1: They're like Hold on a second, how do you get

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Speaker 1: such a big planet so close to the Sun. Can

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Speaker 1: it last very long? Are we seeing something just before

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Speaker 1: it dies? Or can that be a stable configuration? And

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Speaker 1: the models suggest that they can and have been born

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Speaker 1: that close to the Sun and it can't last there

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Speaker 1: very long. And that's the clue that got everybody talking

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Speaker 1: and thinking about whether planets are moving, because they suspect

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Speaker 1: that these hot jupiters form further out and then get

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Speaker 1: sucked in, And so we're witnessing sort of like the

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Speaker 1: end of the life cycle of these planets before they

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Speaker 1: either get torn apart or pulled in. And that's a

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Speaker 1: clue that, like solo systems are volatile, there is stuff

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Speaker 1: going on. It's not just everybody sedately driving in their

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Speaker 1: lane for billions of years.

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Speaker 3: Huh? Is Jupiter gonna get sucked into our sun? Not

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Speaker 3: before the Sun explodes?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: Are you worried about Jupiter? Have you like invested in

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Speaker 1: real estate on Jupiter?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I was thinking about it. We've been

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Speaker 3: reading about space settlements, but no, obviously not nobody's gonna

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Speaker 3: go live on Jupiter. But maybe it's moons.

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Speaker 1: I want to write a fantastic series and science fiction

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Speaker 1: novels about a civilization in the upper clouds of Jupiter.

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Speaker 1: I think it was called Bio of a Space Tyrant Man.

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Speaker 1: I loved those books when I was a teenager. It

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Speaker 1: was so like fantastically imagined. So I hope that one

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Speaker 1: day humans do get to on Jupiter, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that we get to keep Jupiter because I like it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Jupiter is pretty. For all the press that

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Speaker 1: like Mars gets recently, Jupiter is a gorgeous planet. So

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Speaker 1: maybe we should start by thinking about our Solar system

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Speaker 1: and understanding of what we know about Jupiter, like where

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Speaker 1: it was made, how it got formed, and that can

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Speaker 1: give us a clue for like why people think there

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Speaker 1: might have been crazy stuff going on in our Solar

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Speaker 1: system at the very beginning of time.

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Speaker 3: All right, so tell me about how Jupiter got to

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Speaker 3: be where it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So we think Jupiter is probably born out in

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Speaker 1: the outer Solar System. There's this point in the Solar

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Speaker 1: system called the ice line, where beyond that it's cold

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Speaker 1: enough for ice to form and to stay melted and

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Speaker 1: basically be like a rock that you can use in

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Speaker 1: building planetary cores. And it's about like three and a

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Speaker 1: half AU, or remember AU is one astronomical units the

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Speaker 1: distance between the Sun and the Earth, so three and

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Speaker 1: a half times the radius of the Earth. Beyond that

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Speaker 1: is the ice line some people call it the snow line,

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Speaker 1: and out there it's easier to make big planets because

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Speaker 1: there's ice available to add to your core. So we

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Speaker 1: think that the way the Solar system started. Obviously you

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Speaker 1: have a big blob of gas and dust and some

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Speaker 1: shockwave comes through it and you get the spark that

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Speaker 1: begins the formation of the whole Solar system, which basically

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Speaker 1: means the Sun. But the Sun is gathered together a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of gas and it has around it a

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Speaker 1: big swirling disc, and that's the disk that's going to

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Speaker 1: provide the material that forms all of the planets. Now,

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Speaker 1: out past the snow line, there's also ice in there.

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Speaker 1: So the ice and the rock and the dust gather

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Speaker 1: together to make these protoplanetary cores. They start pulling themselves

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Speaker 1: together and that sort of seeds the planets.

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Speaker 3: And so we ended up with what four planets out

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Speaker 3: past the ice line? Is that pretty common? Like that

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Speaker 3: number and like the size of our planets? Does that

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Speaker 3: match up with what we see in other solar systems.

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Speaker 1: We don't know the answer to that yet, we haven't

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Speaker 1: seen enough. But also remember that we can see a

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Speaker 1: bunch of solar systems, but we're not that great at

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Speaker 1: seeing all of them. And there's certain kinds of solar

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Speaker 1: systems that are easier to see, and like it's easier

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Speaker 1: to see big planets that are closer to their Sun

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Speaker 1: because they block more of the Sun's light. The way

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Speaker 1: we see these exoplanets is that they block the light

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Speaker 1: of their Sun or they tug gravitationally on the Sun.

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Speaker 1: So big planets are easier to see. Close up planets

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Speaker 1: are easier to see, so far out planets harder to spot.

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Speaker 1: Far out small planets harder to spot.

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Speaker 3: Does that mean that like super slow moving things we

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Speaker 3: probably don't have good data on yet because we wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have had a chance to see them pass in front

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Speaker 3: of the Sun or tug it as it moves around

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Speaker 3: to the side.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Yeah, we have to watch these things

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Speaker 1: cross their Sun, and so basically it's best if you

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Speaker 1: can see them pass a few times, so you can

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Speaker 1: see like a regular interval, So the equivalent of several

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Speaker 1: of their years. But if their years take like, you know,

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Speaker 1: one hundred earth years to go around, then we're not

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Speaker 1: going to have had time to see it. So slow

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Speaker 1: moving things, small things, things far from their sun are

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Speaker 1: hard order to see. So that's a long way of

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Speaker 1: saying we don't have an unbiased picture of what's going

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Speaker 1: on in these other solar systems, and we have to

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Speaker 1: try to play this game of wondering, like, well, if

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Speaker 1: we see only one of them, do we imagine that

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Speaker 1: there are a thousand? Or if we only see two

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Speaker 1: of those, do we imagine there are one hundred. We

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Speaker 1: have to estimate like how good we are seeing them,

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Speaker 1: so we can like invert that and imagine what's actually

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Speaker 1: there that we're missing. But there's a lot that we're missing.

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Speaker 1: Still interesting, Yeah, it's really fascinating, and so that's why

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Speaker 1: we focus on our solar system because it's here, it's relevant,

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Speaker 1: and it's one that we can study in great detail.

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Speaker 1: But those other solar systems do give us a lot

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Speaker 1: of clues Back to Jupiter. We think that it must

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Speaker 1: have had to form in the outer solar system because

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Speaker 1: that's basically the only place to make these big gas giants.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you need enough ice and enough rock to

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Speaker 1: pull together to make this big core to grab a

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Speaker 1: bunch of gas. Remember, everything in the Solar system is

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Speaker 1: competing with the Sun, and the inner Solar system is

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Speaker 1: not that much gas left because the Sun has slurped

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Speaker 1: it all up. So to make a gas giant, really

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Speaker 1: have to be far away from the Sun to get

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Speaker 1: any of the gas, and you have to be passed

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Speaker 1: the snow line, so you can have ice accumulate in

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Speaker 1: your core and get big enough that you can grab

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Speaker 1: some of the gas before all spirals into the Sun.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, Okay, so Jupiter was formed in the outer Solar

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Speaker 3: System and it's still in the outer Solar system. So

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Speaker 3: after the break, let's talk about why we think it moved.

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00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: impact of each and every bite, But the people in

442
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: the dairy industry are. US Dairy has set themselves some

443
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,719
Speaker 1: ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty

444
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 1: to fifty. That's why they're working hard every day to

445
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and

446
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example, most

447
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: dairy farms reuse water up to four times the same

448
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 1: water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn, and

449
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases?

450
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

451
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: maneure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and

452
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

453
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that

454
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

455
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy

456
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 1: products we love with less of an impact. Visit usdairy

457
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

458
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 3: Okay, so Jupiter is where we would expect it to be,

459
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 3: given how we expect that it formed, So why would

460
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 3: we suspect that it had moved at any point?

461
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems at first like it might be a

462
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: simple story. Right, Jupiter had to form somewhere in the

463
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: neighborhood where it is today, and so the simplest explanation is, well,

464
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: maybe it just formed there and stayed there. Why do

465
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: we imagine it ever took a tour in the inner

466
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: Solar System? And the reason is that the inner Solar

467
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: System looks weird, Like we can't explain the Inner Solar

468
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: System in that picture. Our models of how the Solar

469
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: system came together. We run a bunch of like simulations

470
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: and try to explain how we got Venus and Earth

471
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: and Mars. None of the models that we run actually

472
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: match up with what we see.

473
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:48,719
Speaker 3: How are they different?

474
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: Well, in particular, Mars is really weird, Like Mars is

475
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 1: a nice little planet, but it's really small, Like Mars

476
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: is like ten percent of the mass of the Earth.

477
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: That's a really small planet, and in all our models

478
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: of the Solar System, Mars should be a lot bigger,

479
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: Like as you get further out from the Sun, there's

480
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: more material available because the Sun hasn't stolen it all,

481
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: and so you expect a planet forming around there to

482
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: be like about the size of the Earth or even bigger.

483
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: You know, as you go to the outer Solar System,

484
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: things get bigger, right, So why is Mars so tiny?

485
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: Why is it so little?

486
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 3: So as you get farther out in the Solar System,

487
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: things should get bigger. But Jupiter is the biggest and

488
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 3: it's not the most far out, So why is Saturn

489
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 3: smaller than Jupiter?

490
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 9: Then?

491
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, that's a great question. There's a whole other

492
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: fun story about Saturn Jupiter maybe switching locations, and there's

493
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: a whole dance of Urinus and Neptune that they might

494
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: have done. But you're right, there's a balance there because

495
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: you want to be far enough away from the Sun

496
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: so it doesn't steal all the material. But as you

497
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: get even further away from the Sun you run out

498
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: of material also, right, Obviously there aren't like super giant

499
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: planets twice as far away as Jupiter, and so this

500
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: something of like a peak location there. Jupiter is probably

501
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: sitting right there in the spot where you can make

502
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: the biggest planet. But the question remains is like why

503
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: is Mars so little? What happened to make Mars so tiny?

504
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: And it's not just Mars, Like the asteroid belt is

505
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: also kind of weird, like we don't really understand how

506
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: it formed the way it did. Again, we run these

507
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,239
Speaker 1: models that start from just the gas cloud, and you

508
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: don't get an asteroid belt that looks the way it does. Specifically,

509
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: our asteroid belt is weird because it has both like

510
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: rocky objects that seem like they came from the inner

511
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: Solar System. Plus they have a bunch of icy objects,

512
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: the kinds of things you would find like in the

513
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: Kuiper Belt or deeper further out in the Solar System.

514
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: So there are these like pieces of evidence you were

515
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: talking earlier about like how could we possibly find clues

516
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 1: about things that happened so long ago? Like these are

517
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: the things that have puzzled scientists for a long time.

518
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 3: So is the asteroid belt inside the ice line or

519
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 3: on the Jupiter side of the ice line.

520
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the asteroid belt is really weird. Actually, part of

521
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: it is inside the ice line, the part that's like

522
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: closer to Mars. Remember it sits between Mars and Jupiter,

523
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: but it also extends kind of far out, and part

524
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: of it actually is in orbit with Jupiter. Like it's

525
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: not all between Mars and Jupiter. There's these big blobs

526
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 1: of asteroids that are in Jupiter's orbit just sort of

527
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: like rotated away from them, like you know, thirty degrees

528
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: around to thirty degrees the other direction, and stuff is

529
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: sort of like sloshing back and forth. So some of

530
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: it's definitely out there past the ice line and can

531
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 1: stay frozen, and some of it's a little bit closer

532
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: in huh.

533
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 3: Interesting.

534
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so we have these mysteries, and I love

535
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: that this is like the way we do science. You know,

536
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: we say, well, I think we understand how the Solar

537
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: system works, but let's double check. Let's run a bunch

538
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: of models and see if what we get matches up

539
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: with what we actually expected. And when you see those

540
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: weird deviations, when you see something that doesn't make sense,

541
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: that's when you know you might have found something. So

542
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: it's like when your model doesn't work, is a potential

543
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: discovery moment.

544
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 3: It isn't that how we figured out how humans figured

545
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 3: out that was it? Neptune was out there, something was

546
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 3: not working mathematically, so there had to be another planet

547
00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 3: out there exactly.

548
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all these times when something hasn't quite worked,

549
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: just like you're saying, the orbits of the planets don't

550
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: quite make sense. And that's been a clue as to

551
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: like a huge discovery, But always makes me think about

552
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: like all the other times when your model doesn't work

553
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: and it's just because like you have a bug or

554
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: you did something stupid, you know, and you can't be like,

555
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, maybe I've discovered something fantastic. Sort of

556
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: frustrating part of science.

557
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, usually for me it's just a bug, but I'll

558
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: keep pull me out.

559
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: Hope. We have that experience all the time. It's a

560
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: large hadron collider because we're always on the lookout for

561
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: something unexplained, something new, something weird, some new particle that

562
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: we've just created, or a mini black hole or something,

563
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: and it might be evidenced by some deviation in the

564
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: data compared to what we expect. But we see that

565
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: all the time. Especially young students make mistakes and they

566
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: see something weird, like, oh my gosh, I discover something like, yeah,

567
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: well you discovered that you don't know how to run

568
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: this program correctly.

569
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: You discovered that you're missing a bracket.

570
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: But yeah, exactly, you discovered that bugs are easy to

571
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: insert in programs. But also you don't want to squash

572
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: their enthusiasm. Right, It's wonderful to see this in young scientists,

573
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: to imagine that they could be the ones making some discovery.

574
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: This could be a historic moment. So I like to

575
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: tell them stories like this because it does actually happen sometimes, Right,

576
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes we run these models and we see something weird

577
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: and it means something real about the universe.

578
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 3: Awesome. We can all keep our fingers crossed and we'll

579
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 3: have those amazing moments where it's not you not being

580
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,239
Speaker 3: smart enough, it's actually the universe revealing herself to you.

581
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: And so we're trying to understand, like how our solar

582
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: system got to be weird the way it is. Why

583
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: don't we have a bunch of other planets close to

584
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: the star, Why is mar so small? Why is the

585
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: asteroid belt the way it is? This weird mix of

586
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: rocky and icy objects. So we've taken clues from these

587
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: other solar systems that have big planets really close to

588
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: their stars. One idea initially was like maybe Jupiters formed

589
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: close to the Sun and then like drifted out and

590
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: along the way sort of messed up things in the

591
00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: Solar system.

592
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: But you just told us that it needed to be

593
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: out there where there's ice in order to form. Could

594
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 3: it have possibly formed near the Earth.

595
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: Is So people spend a while trying to cook up

596
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: these models and wondering like maybe there's a way to

597
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: have a hot jupiter that survives, or maybe there's a

598
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: way to form a planet really close to the star.

599
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: Maybe there are other methods. So you know, this idea

600
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: of how you form a jupiter is sort of one model,

601
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: but there are other models. There's like, you know, gravitational

602
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: instabilities that maybe stuff smashed together to make like an

603
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: unusually large object which then like gathered together a bunch

604
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: of stuff. And people have been working on these things

605
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: and trying to put them together, and you know, this

606
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: is the kind of creativity that's inspired by basically a mystery,

607
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem to really be working, Like there's

608
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: just not enough gas and not enough mass close to

609
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: the star, and also it's just too warm. Like a

610
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff. If you did happen to form

611
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: a big object would get blown apart by the Sun

612
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: that some just like boil the gas off of that planet,

613
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: and it would also probably just like holl it apart

614
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: by the tidal forces. The Sun has a lot of

615
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 1: gravity and it tugs on everything. But if you're a

616
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: really big object, it's going to tug on the part

617
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: of you that's closer to the star more than it

618
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: tugs on the part of you that's far from the star.

619
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: And that's effectively the same thing as trying to pull

620
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: you apart. And that's why, for example, if you get

621
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: close to a black hole, you won't survive because you'll

622
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: get pulled apart by the relative difference in the gravity

623
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: at your feet and at your head. It's called spaghettification,

624
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: one of the best physics words out there. And so

625
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: now imagine like making a big gas giant. You've accomplished

626
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: the impossible. You've formed a gas giant close to your star.

627
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: What's going to happen the star pretty quickly is going

628
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: to spaghettify Jupiter, and like that's a lot of spaghetti.

629
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: I'm there for that. I love spaghetti. So are people

630
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: still working on that question or have scientists pretty much

631
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 3: decided like, Okay, this is not the answer.

632
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: There's always somebody still working on that question, right There

633
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: are people out there who think that it might have

634
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: been possible to make a jupiter close to the star,

635
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: and they're working on their models, and in that line

636
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: of thinking, they're hoping that you've made this jupiter close

637
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: to the star and that it's somehow we don't know how,

638
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: then drifted out to the outer Solar System and in

639
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: doing so has perturbed the asteroid belt and in doing

640
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: so has like stolen a lot of the material that

641
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: might have made Mars. But I don't think that it's

642
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: a mainstream idea. I mean, there's always somebody out there,

643
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, smoking banana peels and thinking about it, and

644
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: I encourage that, and that kind of creativity is wonderful,

645
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: and you know, diversity of ideas is also very very

646
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: important for the scientific method. But I don't think the

647
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: leading idea is that you form a hot jupiter close

648
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: to the Sun and that it then drifts out into

649
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: the outer Solar System.

650
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 3: Okay, so it started in the outer Solar System and

651
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: then it went on a cool vacation towards the Sun

652
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 3: and decided it preferred skiing.

653
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so we don't think that this idea of

654
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: its starting in the inner Solar system and moving out

655
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: makes much sense. And another clue is that when we

656
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: look at the these other solar systems, the ones that

657
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: have hot jupiters, and we wonder like, how are they

658
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: made and how could that survive? There's some evidence that

659
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: we're looking at our really young solar systems, solar systems

660
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: that haven't been around for very long. And so one

661
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: explanation for how hot jupiters even exist is that they're transient,

662
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: that they're gonna be absorbed by the star that we're

663
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: seeing them before they get spaghettified and sucked in and

664
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: basically just become part of the star. Because we don't

665
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: tend to see hot jupiters in older solar systems.

666
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 3: Ah, so it started in the outer Solar system, it

667
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: got sucked in, and we are seeing it at a

668
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: point where it is sort of in the process of

669
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 3: soon to be absorbed by the Sun. Is that right?

670
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: That's the leading explanation for why we are seeing hot

671
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: Jupiters in other solar systems. But you know, of course

672
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: that doesn't answer the question of our solar system because

673
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: we don't have a hot Jupiter, right, But we still

674
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: have to explain what happened in the inner Solar system.

675
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: So we have Jupiter starting in the outer Solar system,

676
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: we think that makes more sense. We don't have it

677
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: currently in the inner Solar system, So then there's this

678
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: question of like, well, how could it have perturbed things

679
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: in the inner Solar system? You know, it's sort of

680
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: like got an alibi. It's like I was born here

681
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: and I'm still here. Why are you looking at me? Right?

682
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 3: Okay? So the progress we've made so far is that

683
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: there's an explanation that we don't think is right. So

684
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: let's try another explanation and see if we can maybe

685
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: solve some of the problems with what's happening with Mars

686
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 3: and the asteroid belt after we take a break.

687
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,040
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688
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,280
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689
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,400
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690
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,040
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691
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692
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693
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694
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695
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696
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699
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700
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Speaker 3: Okay, so we feel pretty confident that Jupiter started in

731
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 3: the outer Solar System and it didn't start in the

732
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 3: Intersolar system and then move out. So if it's starts

733
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 3: in the outer Solar system and it's still there, now,

734
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: does that mean at some point Jupiter sort of toyed

735
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: with the idea of a summer vacation and then decided

736
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 3: and preferred the cold and went back to go skiing.

737
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 3: Did it come to the Sun and then leave?

738
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: I know this is that moment in the Murder mystery

739
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: where you're like, hm, this person was home all evening.

740
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: Hold on a second, do actually have a way to

741
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: account for all their whereabouts? Could they have snuck out

742
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: and committed the murder and then come back in time?

743
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: How fast are those trains? We can't leave Jupiter in

744
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: the outer Solar System for its whole history. But now

745
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: we have a crazier idea, which is maybe Jupiter did

746
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 1: trend into the inner Solar System, just like all those

747
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: other hot Jupiters were seeing in other solar systems, but

748
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 1: that it stopped and it turned around and it went

749
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: back out to the outer Solar system. So this is

750
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: called the Grand tach hypothesis. Seeing Jupiter is like a

751
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: sailboat that like sailed into the inner Solar System and

752
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: then sailed back out.

753
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 3: This is blowing my mind. So let's break into two parts.

754
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: I guess, So, how did it get pulled in? Just

755
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 3: through the typical gravity pulled it in?

756
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have to cast your mind back to

757
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: the very very early days of the Solar system. Solar

758
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: system we think is about four or five billion years old,

759
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: and we're talking about things that happened in the first

760
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: few million years. You shouldn't be imagining a bunch of

761
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 1: planets around a star. You should be imagining a star

762
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: and then a huge disk of gas and dust, and

763
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: then inside that gas and dusk, we're forming planets. But

764
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: they're not like clear, they're not like totally separated. If

765
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: you were doing astronomy back then, you would have had

766
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: a really hard time seeing any planets because there's so

767
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: much gas and dust everywhere. So the beginning of the

768
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: story in the first few million years is that like

769
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: proto Jubiter has formed, but it's not as far out

770
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: as it is now. It's only like three and a

771
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: half au like right there on the snow line as

772
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: we were saying earlier, like the peak place to make

773
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: a gas giant is just pass where things freeze, so

774
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: you can gather ice and rocks and dust, but not

775
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: so far out that things are getting dilute. So Jupiter

776
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: formed there and then it drifts into the inner Solar System.

777
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: And so you're asking, like what makes that happen? It's

778
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: it just the Sun's gravity. And you know anything can

779
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 1: orbit stably. The Sun obviously has a lot of gravity.

780
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: But the reason, like the Earth is not falling into

781
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: the Sun right now, is that we have a lot

782
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: of speed, we're in a stable orbit. So we think

783
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: Jupiter probably was in a stable orbit. But remember it

784
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: wasn't on its own. It's still surrounded by a lot

785
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: of gas and dust that hasn't gotten pulled into any planet.

786
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: So the idea is that it interacted with that gas

787
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: and dust, which basically slowed it down and started falling

788
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:36,439
Speaker 1: in towards the Sun.

789
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 3: That must have been very scary for Jupiter.

790
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: I know, it's like this inextricable fall, right, you know

791
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: that you're like rolling in towards this huge burning ball

792
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 1: of plasma and there's basically nothing you can do about it.

793
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: So very dramatic moment, and these gases eventually, you know,

794
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 1: spiraled in and they fell into the Sun, and Jupiter

795
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: was spiraling it also, And so the idea is that

796
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: it passed through the inner Solar System and along the

797
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: way it gobbled up a lot of material which eventually

798
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: would have otherwise led to a larger Mars.

799
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 3: How far in did it go? Did it get like

800
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 3: Earth close or just Mars.

801
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 1: Close, not quite Earth close. We think that it came

802
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: into like about one and a half au. And that's

803
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: why we still have Earth as a pretty reasonable size,

804
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: because Jupiter came in and it either like gobbled up

805
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: the material to make Mars or scattered it and threw

806
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: it into the Sun. But the things in the inner

807
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: Solar system were a bit more protected.

808
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so part of Jupiter should have been in Mars.

809
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: It's like those twins, you know, where like one of

810
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: them eats the other one and you still have like

811
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 1: a jaw or whatever inside the body of the adult.

812
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: Those are the craziest stories.

813
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 3: I don't think they're actually eating the other one, but yes,

814
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 3: I know where you're going with that.

815
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 1: Well, you don't believe in the evil twin theory, The

816
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: twins can eat each other in the womb.

817
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: I was reading about this the other day, and I

818
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: think it's the like absorb eating suggests a bit more

819
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 3: intention that I think is actually happening in there.

820
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to use that next time I

821
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: eat my kids cookies. I'm like, I didn't eat your cookies.

822
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: I just absorbed them. And Kelly the biologist, she tells

823
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 1: me that's different.

824
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 3: And then your children will remind you that you are

825
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 3: not a fetus. You're a grown man who can make decisions.

826
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: And so, you know, let them know that they can

827
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 3: call me if they need back up.

828
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: All right, I'll give them your number. Anyways, So Jupiter's

829
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: out there like unintentionally absorbing the materials that Mars would

830
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: have needed to get larger and scattering a bunch of

831
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: other stuff, and so it came into about one and

832
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: a half AU, and that actually explains a lot about

833
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: what's going on in our inner solar system. That's why

834
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: there are no like other rocky planets after Mars. We

835
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: think there might have also been other planets out there

836
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: that were forming that Jupiter just like nudged into the Sun.

837
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: So why did it nudge them into the Sun as

838
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 3: opposed to pulling it into Jupiter.

839
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know. It could have been either fate. Right,

840
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: This is very chaotic, and so it depends exactly on

841
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: how big they were and how they were aligned, and

842
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: so the fate of these planets could be like fall

843
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: into the Sun or get absorbed by Jupiter, or even

844
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: get tossed out of the Solar system entirely. Like Jupiter

845
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: is a big bully, right, It's so much bigger than

846
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: Earth than Mars, and it comes in and it doesn't

847
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: take very much to really disrupt the inner Solar system.

848
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 3: Okay, so how does this describe what happened or does

849
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: this help explain what happened with the asteroid belt?

850
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it actually off really fits together beautifully because

851
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: to explain the asteroid belt, you need Jupiter to get

852
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: back out to where it was, right. The asteroid belt

853
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: has rocky stuff in it from the inner Solar System,

854
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: but also icy stuff from the outer Solar System. And

855
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: so if you could somehow turn Jupiter around, right, we've

856
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: seen in all these other solar systems also that these

857
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: big gas giants sometimes fall slowly in towards the star.

858
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: And we think that in most cases, probably they just

859
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: end up inside the star. They didn't happen in our case.

860
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: So we need Jupiter and move somehow to the outer

861
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: Solar System, and in doing so we think that it

862
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: will have disrupted the ap asteroid belt and also disrupted

863
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: the Kuiper Belt and like pulled some of those objects

864
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: towards the inner Solar System, so that the asteroid belt

865
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: then has like a weird mixture of these like further

866
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: out objects and these inner objects. And that's why we

867
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: see these like icy objects and rocky objects in our

868
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: asteroid belt. If we can get Jupiter to go in

869
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: and then come back.

870
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 3: Out, that's fascinating. So now, how you told us that

871
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 3: Jupiter probably slowed down and that's what caused it to

872
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: get pulled in. So for Jupiter to go back out again,

873
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 3: what is required for that? Does it have to start

874
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 3: speeding up and then also kind of get nudged. Why

875
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 3: did it leave?

876
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: Well, Jupiter we think probably was saved by its friend Saturn,

877
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: because Saturn has the same fate, right. Saturn also a

878
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: big gas giant, also probably surrounded by big swarming clouds

879
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: of gas, getting slowed down drifting in towards the inner

880
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: Solar system. So imagine Jupiter like the big brother, and

881
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: then Saturn like the younger sister or the younger brother,

882
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 1: following in behind it, having sort of the same fate

883
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: and seeing what's happening to Jupiter. But the calculation suggest

884
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 1: that it's possible that as these two things get close

885
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: to the inner Solar System, that they then start tugging

886
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: on each other, and that their gravitational interaction makes this

887
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: weird resonance. They're pushing on each other and they're passing

888
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: around the Sun. They're tugging on each other in the

889
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: same way. So they do this like weird dance. Like

890
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: imagine two people spinning and both letting go and they

891
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: get flown out of the inner Solar system. I know,

892
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: it's crazy. It's like Saturn like dove in after Jupiter

893
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: and save them both. Right, they could have ended very badly.

894
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's got to be a buddy comedy that could

895
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 3: be written about this or something.

896
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: That's wild exactly. And so that's maybe the story that

897
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: Jupiter started in the outer Solar system, got tugged in

898
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: as it's got slowed down by all this gas, and

899
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 1: then got saved by Saturn, and that would explain why

900
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: Mars is so small, and it would explain why the

901
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: asteroid belt has the weird composition that it does have.

902
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 3: And so is that the only explanation we have for

903
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 3: how Jupiter got thrown back out again? Or is that

904
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 3: just the top explanation right now?

905
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: That's the top explanation, And we don't think that it's

906
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 1: very unlikely. I mean, we think that in most cases,

907
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: when you have a big gas giant that falls towards

908
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: your star, it ends in the way you would expect

909
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: that it falls towards the star and gets gobbled up,

910
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: and so in most solar systems that have basically a Jupiter,

911
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: we think that it doesn't last for very long. So

912
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: that means that our solar system is probably weird, right,

913
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: that we're unusual for keeping this big gas giant and

914
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: having it back in the outer Solar system in a

915
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: stable way after all the gas and dust have cleared out.

916
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: Now Jupiter can go back out to the past the

917
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: ice line and hang out for billions of years.

918
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 3: That would suggest that the reason we're weird is because

919
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 3: we also have a Saturn. So do other solar systems

920
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 3: without hot Jupiters also have a Saturn equivalent.

921
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, great question. I don't think we know the answer

922
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: to that, because these planets are much harder to spot, right,

923
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: We're talking about things five six AU that only passed

924
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: their Sun every few years. Right, Like, if you were

925
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: observing our solar system for really far away Jupiter and

926
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: satur would not be that easy to spot because while

927
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: they're pretty big, they're also really far away from the

928
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: Sun and it takes them years and years to orbit,

929
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: So you would have to be watching our solar system

930
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: for a long time with a really good telescope before

931
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: you discover Jupiter and Saturn. So that's not something that

932
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: we're really sort of good at knowing about other solar systems.

933
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: Yet so far, we mostly know what's going on in

934
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: the inner Solar system for big, fast moving planets around

935
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: their star.

936
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 3: So astronomers have like incredible job security because we're going

937
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 3: to need to watch for hundreds of years to get

938
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 3: these data, and surely the government's going to pay for all.

939
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: Of it, exactly. Yeah, it's incredible what we have learned

940
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: so far. You know, we've learned so much about how

941
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: our solar system is weird compared to the other solar systems.

942
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: That's out there, and that's sort of like cool, like, hey,

943
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: our Solar system is awesome and special. It's also a

944
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: little bit disheartening because if you believe in aliens, or

945
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: you want to believe in aliens, and you want to

946
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: think that there are lots of opportunities for life out there,

947
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: it makes the story a little bit harder because to

948
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 1: have a solar system like ours and a planet like ours,

949
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: you need this sort of special thing to happen, this

950
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: dance of the two gas giants to clear out the

951
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: inner Solar system and then also save themselves and be

952
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: in the outer Solar system. You know, we think that

953
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 1: Jupiter probably protects the Earth from a lot of sort

954
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: of incoming bombardment because it's so big. It's like hoovering

955
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: up all the comets and other stuff. So it's a

956
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: special configuration we have.

957
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 3: You've kind of bummed me out, you know. At the

958
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 3: beginning of this conversation when we were talking about how

959
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 3: big our data set is, I was thinking, all right,

960
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 3: that's got to be good for the Drake equation. You know,

961
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: we're like adding all of these possible solar systems that

962
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 3: might have Earth like planets. But now what you're telling

963
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 3: me is probably a lot of the ones that are

964
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 3: out there don't have Earth like planets. And now I'm

965
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: kind of bummed.

966
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit. And we've been excited to find

967
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: what we we thought were Earth like planets in these

968
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: other solar systems. One's about the right radius, about the

969
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: right distance from the star. But what we don't know

970
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: is if they really have the right composition to be

971
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: in Earth. You know, it might be that Jupiter came

972
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: through the Inner Solar System and it cleared out a

973
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: lot of gas et cetera, et cetera, and so we

974
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 1: ended up with a planet just the right combination of

975
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: stuff to have life. If Jupiter hadn't come through the

976
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: Inner Solar System, Earth might have been a little bit bigger,

977
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: and there might have been more gas, So we might

978
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: have ended up with a very different composition. You can

979
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: imagine like a super Earth that's like choked in hydrogen

980
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: instead of having the atmosphere that we have. You know,

981
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: the way like Venus is just like choked in CO two.

982
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: It's very oppressive. And so it might be that a

983
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: lot of the planets we're seeing in these other solar

984
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: systems are not actually sort of habitable in the way

985
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: that we would hope for. They're not really copies of Earth.

986
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 1: They might have the right size roughly and being roughly

987
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: the right position, but that doesn't mean they have the

988
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: same conditions as Earth.

989
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 3: Man, we're lucky.

990
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: Oh we're special. We're special.

991
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to go with lucky. But maybe life is

992
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 3: better if you go with special. So did Jupiter go

993
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 3: like back to where it came from or did it

994
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: end up a little closer or a little farther out

995
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: than where it was before.

996
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: It ended up a little farther out. It's like it

997
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: wanted to go out into the excerbs.

998
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 7: You know.

999
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: It was born in the suburbs, and it came to

1000
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: the inner city, and then it decided in its retirement

1001
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: it wanted to live further out. So it started out

1002
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: at three and a half AU, came in probably about

1003
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: one and a half and now it's comfortably out around

1004
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: five point two AU.

1005
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 3: I can totally understand how Jupiter feels. I was born

1006
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 3: in the suburbs, and then I moved to a big

1007
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: city and now I live out in the country where

1008
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 3: nobody else is. So I feel you, Jupiter.

1009
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: Well, it takes a lot to feel Jupiter, and the

1010
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: story doesn't end there. What we talked about is like

1011
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: the first few million years of the Solar System, but

1012
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: there's still a lot of interesting planetary dynamics that need

1013
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: to be explained. Like we think that maybe Uranus and

1014
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: Neptune switched places at some point, and that Jupiter and

1015
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: Saturn may not have sort of ended up where they

1016
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: are now, that it may have taken a little while,

1017
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 1: and they may have also done some later migrations. We're

1018
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: talking like five hundred million years after the start of

1019
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: the Solar system. So we like to think about the

1020
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: Solar system as sort of like it is what it is,

1021
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: and it's been what it's been. But if you did

1022
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: it like in time laps over like hundreds of millions

1023
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: of years, it would seem pretty chaotic. It would seem like, wow,

1024
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: there's really something happening there.

1025
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 3: So this idea of Jupiter moving in and out, is

1026
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 3: this like totally accepted by the mainstream or is this

1027
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: just sort of a theory that some people ascribe to.

1028
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 3: How broadly is this idea accepted?

1029
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's somewhere in between. The astronomers I spoke to

1030
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: think it's like probably the most plausible explanation, but you know,

1031
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot of details still to get right, and

1032
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: our models are just going to keep getting better and better,

1033
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 1: and then we could ask more and more detailed questions.

1034
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: And right now the models explain Mars, but as we

1035
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: make those models better, we can ask more specific questions

1036
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: about like why does Mars have the composition that it does,

1037
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: and why does it get exactly this small and not larger?

1038
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: And maybe as we do those studies, we'll find discrepancies

1039
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: and things that don't work, and then we'll need to

1040
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: modify this model. Or maybe there's some other crazy part

1041
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: of this story that we haven't even thought of yet

1042
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: that could be revealed by some little detail that some

1043
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: student uncovers.

1044
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 3: So, given the gaps in our data set, which are

1045
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 3: caused by things that are hard to remove, like really

1046
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,240
Speaker 3: really slow moving planets, what do you think the chance

1047
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 3: is that by the time you and I are you know, retiring,

1048
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 3: that we'll be able to say, like, definitely, that's what

1049
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 3: Jupiter are. You know, maybe we'll never be able to

1050
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 3: say definitely, but we feel super confident that that's what

1051
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 3: Jupiter did. Is this a problem that could get solved soon?

1052
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: Or are we looking at decades and decades before we

1053
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 3: can really get a good answer.

1054
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: Well, that depends how long until you plan to retire.

1055
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I'm ever going to retire. But you know,

1056
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 3: the average age of a woman in the US when

1057
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 3: they die is what eighty seven is seventy seven something,

1058
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: So that timescale.

1059
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: I think that our understanding of our solar system and

1060
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: other solar systems is going to be continually revolutionized, basically

1061
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: every ten years for the next hundred years, because we

1062
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: are just at the very beginning of understanding how these

1063
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: things work, because we've just started to look and to

1064
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: see at these other planets, and we're going to find

1065
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: lots more surprises once we develop telescopes that are better

1066
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: at these things, once James web launches and teaches us

1067
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: more about cold planets. James Webb is an infrared telescope

1068
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 1: that can see things that are not just quite as hot,

1069
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: that can see like cold disks of protoplanetary formation and

1070
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 1: actually maybe individual planets that glow in the infrared. So

1071
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: we have a lot more information coming and if the

1072
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 1: universe holds true to its reputation, it will be filled

1073
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 1: with surprises that upend our ideas. So probably by the

1074
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: time we retire, people will look back at these ideas

1075
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: as quaint and goofy, and then we'll have a much

1076
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: more interesting idea, probably filled with dramatic events we have

1077
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: even considered.

1078
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 3: You know, it's a really fascinating time to be alive

1079
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 3: with the kinds of data that we're able to collect

1080
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 3: right now, It really is.

1081
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: It's a kind of time that makes me just want

1082
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: to like live another ten years because the things we're

1083
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 1: learning are just blowing our minds. You know. It makes

1084
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: me wonder, like, what would a children's book about the

1085
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: solar system say in one hundred years, right, Like I

1086
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: would love, I would kill to travel forward in time

1087
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: and steal children's books about science.

1088
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 3: Well, this suggests that biology needs more funding, because we

1089
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 3: need people to be working on the problem of immortality.

1090
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: Don't give me that. On my campus, we have like

1091
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Speaker 1: ten times as many biologists as physicists are already all right,

1092
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Speaker 1: all right enough, but I love biologists literally, I mean,

1093
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Speaker 1: I'm married to one. So I'm definitely pro biology. More

1094
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Speaker 1: funding for all the sciences so we can unravel these

1095
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Speaker 1: amazing mysteries of the universe.

1096
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Speaker 3: There you go, agreed.

1097
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Speaker 1: All right, something we can agree on. So thank you

1098
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: everybody for joining us on this tour of the early

1099
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Speaker 1: days of our solar system, the dramatic story of Jupiter

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Speaker 1: visit to the inner Solar system, and how it might

1101
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Speaker 1: explain everything that we're seeing, all the mysteries about the

1102
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Speaker 1: size of Mars and the composition of the asteroid belt.

1103
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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for sharing your curiosity with us.

1104
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Speaker 1: And thank you again to Kelly, our wonderful guest host,

1105
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: for joining us on today's episode.

1106
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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on the show, and thanks for

1107
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Speaker 3: listening everyone.

1108
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Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun, all right, Tune in

1109
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Speaker 1: next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and

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Speaker 1: Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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