1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: conserving both. Big shout out to Onyx Hunt for their 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: support of this podcast. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. On 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to start piecing together and understanding 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: where grizzly bears fit into the modern landscape and get 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: into some subjects of controversy, like their current placement on 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: the endangered Species list. But we're going to start all 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: of this off by hearing a conversation with one of 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: the most interesting human beings I have ever met. A 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: hunting guide, a local legend, a man who has spent 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: the majority of this life in the wilderness living around them, 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: and a man who has one of the most harrowing 14 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: bear charge stories I have ever heard. Do you remember 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: the first time you encounter under a grizzly bear? 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: I sure do. It wasn't a close range encounter, but 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: I was bear hunting, and it was here in the 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 2: valley floor, and it was not all that far from here, 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: and it was on the edge of a wetland meadow system, 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: and it was late in the day, early evening, and 21 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: I was watching some bears they'll graze on forbes and 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: grasses when they first come out of hibernation, and that's 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: what was going on there. And the mosquitoes were just hatching, 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: which I can tell you on average, the big hatches 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: on the twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth of May historically here earlier now, 26 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: but I knew that from guiding, you know, hunters in 27 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: the spring. You had it pretty good until about the 28 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: twelfth of May. And then it was like they opened 29 00:01:58,840 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 2: the hangars. 30 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 3: And mosquito clouds and with all the wetlands in here 31 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 3: that there was really unbelievable populations of mosquitoes. 32 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: And I'll never forget I was in a cloud of 33 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: mosquitoes and watching these black bears feeding. Was number of 34 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: them actually in this meadow. Sism was quite big. And 35 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: I saw something move in the timber across the neck 36 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: of the metal where I was, and I looked and 37 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 2: I was like, wow, there was It looked like the 38 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: moon almost coming through the dark timber. And it was 39 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: the face and the and the rough on this big 40 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: silver tip and it was silver tip had to foot, 41 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: but it's it really struck me how that face rough 42 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: and head rough made that head so round appearing and 43 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: and you know how the moon is kind of an 44 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 2: off weight to silver, Yeah, that's exactly the color it was. 45 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: And I got to watch that. I watched that bear 46 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: until it was dark. It started to feed towards me, 47 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, I'm just gonna, you know, 48 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 2: head out. 49 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: How far was he? 50 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: You know that bear was under one hundred yards? 51 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: Okay? 52 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? 53 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so not like yeah, because at first I didn't 54 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: know if you were talking about you know, three hundred three, 55 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: four hundred yards away, but he's he's one hundred yards 56 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: or less. Yeah, and that was the first one you 57 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: ever encountered. Yep. Okay, Before we go any further, the 58 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: state age has to be set. There's just some information 59 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: that I think is essential for all of us to 60 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: have before we hear more from this guy. Two years ago, 61 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: my good friend Fred Finizi asked me to come up 62 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: and do a day's worth of ONEX hunt seminars at 63 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: the Youth Outdoor Education Rendezvous in Conden, Montana. It's a 64 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: pretty sweet event that happens during the summer that teaches kids' 65 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: real outdoor skills like backcountry first aid, fly casting, archery, 66 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: firearm safety, and a whole lot more. Throughout the day. 67 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: There after my class would end, I kept hearing this 68 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: enthusiastic voice coming from the class over next to me. 69 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: It was the wildlife conflict class, where kids were taught 70 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: how to handle themselves in a potential bear charge situation, 71 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: and the instructor was captivating, to say the least. I 72 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: couldn't help a watch and listen as he would go 73 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: over several different scenarios, all paired with examples from his 74 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: real life experience, and the class always concluded with giving 75 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: the kids the opportunity to try out their newly learned 76 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: skills with a simulated bear charge and a train ainting 77 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: can of bear spread. Kids loved that, as you could imagine. 78 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: After watching this unfold a few times, I finally went 79 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: to Fred and asked him who the instructor was and 80 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: his response was, oh, man, that's Tom Parker, a legend 81 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: in the Swan Valley. Now my curiosity was even more peaud. 82 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: Tom had been a well known hunting guide that had 83 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: been operating since the seventies and was known for his 84 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: time spent in the Bob Marshall Wilderness and Mission Mountains. 85 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: Known for his expertise in the backcountry known for his 86 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: extensive amount of knowledge about all sorts of wildlife, particularly bears, 87 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: which is why Fred asked him to teach that wildlife 88 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: conflict class. He was a legitimate local legend. The more 89 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: I asked around that day, the more my beliefs got confirmed, 90 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: and I knew immediately that one day I needed to 91 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: sit down with Tom and talk to him, but I 92 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: didn't know exactly what about. As luck would have it, 93 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: when the summer of twenty twenty five year Old Around 94 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: and Backwoods University was now in existence and we had 95 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: planned already to do some episodes on Grizzlies, I immediately 96 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: thought of Tom Parker. This past July, when we were 97 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: back in the Swan Valley, I set up a time 98 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: to meet with Tom. This conversation takes place sitting in 99 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: the living room of Tom's cabin. My wife Lacy and 100 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: I rode over there one morning and we had coffee 101 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: with Tom, along with his son and his daughter, and 102 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: we talked for a bit as they shared with us 103 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: some old photo albums from Tom's early guiding days. As 104 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: I flipped through the pages looking at the different photographs, 105 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: I saw pictures of the Montana skyline, mule teams going 106 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: into the wilderness, successful hunt photos with moose, mountain goat, 107 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,239 Speaker 1: mountain lion, black bears, elk, mule deer, along with several 108 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: photographs of live grizzlies. It was clear that this man 109 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: had a story to tell, probably several stories. Tom was 110 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: a houndsman at one point, and the story goes that 111 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: for several years Tom ran his hounds without the use 112 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: of GPS collars, and that he would rather just keep 113 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: up with his dogs on foot and physically track them himself. 114 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: This story is not grizzly related, but I still think 115 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: it's worth sharing because you'll get an idea of the 116 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: caliber person that we're dealing with before we get into 117 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: the bear talk, which is fully worth sticking around for. 118 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: Because I'm telling you this bear charge story that he 119 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: has will make the hair on your next stand up. 120 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Here's Tom. 121 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: I just couldn't see the utility for the way I hunted. 122 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: You know, much of the hunting here. If you're guiding hunters, 123 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: you're hunting on snow. Even before the tracking callers, what 124 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: guys were using was a radio receiver. They had a 125 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: collar that would put out a radio pulse, and I 126 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: had never used ZoZ either, even though they were almost 127 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: universally used by most of the guys. I knew that 128 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: ran dogs. 129 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: But how did you figure out that you could track 130 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: your dogs like that? Did someone teach you how to 131 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: do that when you were younger? Did you just figure 132 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: it out? No? 133 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: I just figured it out. I had some mentors that 134 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: were houndsmen. But I guess what it was was I 135 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: was in really good shape and I could largely keep 136 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: up with my dogs, and if not, you know, it 137 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: didn't take me long to close up whatever lead they 138 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: had on me. 139 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: And you're doing this mostly like in the wilderness. 140 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, in this country here, you know, all around the 141 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: periphery of the Bob Marshall and Missions. 142 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, Yeah, I mean it's impressive. 143 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going right up the side of a mountain. 144 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: I mean it's I couldn't do it today in the 145 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: same way. 146 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: No way. 147 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 2: I just don't have the same stamina that I had then, 148 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: which was, you know, I could go day and night 149 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: and largely not stop. 150 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: If you're unfamiliar with the Bob Marshall Wilderness or the 151 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: Mission Mountains, it's some sea, serious, rugged country. And if 152 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: you've ever seen any modern houndsman work. Most of those 153 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: folks can cover some serious ground. I mean really, they 154 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: are typically some in shape dudes. The fact that Tom 155 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: did this for years, keeping up with his dogs with 156 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: nothing but his own tracking ability and bootsteps is wild 157 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: to me. This guy is the real deal, and he's 158 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: been at this for a long time. When did you 159 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: start guiding around here? 160 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy six. I went to work for a local 161 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: outfitter and I was packing and guiding full time. At 162 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: that time, you had to have worked three years full 163 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: time in the outfitter classifications you wanted licensed in, which 164 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: was I was hunting, fishing, and packing outfitter right, And 165 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 2: I tested in nineteen seventy eight, and I've been licensed 166 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 2: continuously as an outfitter ever since. I've been doing it 167 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: my entire adult life. 168 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: Did you guide any particular species more than others or 169 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: were you doing a pretty good swath of stuff? 170 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: You know? I guided all species that tags were available for, 171 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: and it's changed substantially over the years. But back in 172 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 2: those days, we had a really robust white tail population, 173 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 2: of robust mule deer population, decent elk numbers, even though 174 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: we're not as Montana elk habitats go. We're not, you know, 175 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: the best black bear. We had really high black bear 176 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: numbers in this country, and mountain lions high numbers. Moose 177 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: tags were really tough to come by, and in fact 178 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: there's none here now, and there's very few goat tags. 179 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: They closed the grizzly hunting in nineteen seventy five. 180 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they've been they've been on the endangered species 181 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: ever since then. Correct. 182 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: Yep. 183 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: Tom's guiding days began back in the nineteen seventies. And honestly, 184 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: it's impossible for us to wrap our heads around the 185 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: full extent of it, but I thought it was extremely 186 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: important that we get some understanding of the vast amount 187 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: of this man's experience spent in the mountains, hunting, guiding, tracking, 188 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: and truly living out there before we get into the 189 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: bear talk. But as you heard in the last few sentences, 190 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: we're about to dive off into it. But before we 191 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: start talking biology, ecology, endangered species delisting and all that stuff, 192 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: I want you to hear the closest call with the 193 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: grizzly that Tom has ever had. 194 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: I had one grizzly that you know, it could have 195 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: gone very wrong. If you know what to say. And 196 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: I surprised one at really close range, and you know 197 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: they can't help but believe that you came there purposely 198 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: for them, and they're going to be defensive about that. 199 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: See that you think that they're responding out to like 200 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: self defense. 201 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 2: Oh, it's defensive. 202 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: How long ago is this? 203 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: This would have been late seventies early eightieses. 204 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: Were you on a hunt when this happened? 205 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: I was actually scouting. I had a hunter coming that day, 206 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: and I thought, I'm going to go in and scout 207 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: this area before he gets here, and just see what's there. 208 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: I learned a valuable lesson. It was May, mid to 209 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 2: late May, and we kind of we don't have a 210 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: lot of thunderstorms, at least in those days we didn't. 211 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: They're more common now. And but there was a little 212 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: thunder cell wasn't a big one that come over the 213 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: missions and was come in my way, and so there 214 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 2: was a lot of swirling air. Well, I just you know, 215 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 2: when the high density bear habitat was swirling air, I 216 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: just don't do that to this day. To this day, 217 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: it's just being cognizant of wind drift. I have my 218 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: whole career basically make a mental map as I'm out 219 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: which way my wind is drifting, so that I know 220 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: what I'll call is fouled or I'm probably recognized by 221 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: my scent stream or not. And that goes for deer hunting, 222 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 2: elk hunting, you know, you name it. That is particularly 223 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: important for bears, especially if you're going to be around grizzy, 224 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: because their nose is so good. What happened was I 225 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 2: was walking on a really fairly tight It was an 226 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: old logging trail that was really grown in and in 227 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 2: a really high quality habitat, and it had been logged 228 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to say probably fifteen or twenty 229 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: years before. So there's lots of spruce and fir that 230 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: gets quite thick. And I'm walking largely into the wind 231 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: and into where the thunderstorm is going. But the wind 232 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: is doing this, it's going in circles. And I had 233 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: walked by this thicket and the winds swirled my scent 234 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 2: into that thicket, and I was, you know, wanting to 235 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: go in and see if I could find much sign, 236 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 2: but I was like, you know, I want to get 237 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: out of here. And I had no more than told 238 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: myself that this probably isn't smart, and there was an 239 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: explosion out of this thicket that I had just walked by. 240 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: It was a very terrifying roar of this big I mean, 241 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: he just roared at like nothing I'd ever heard, And 242 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: at first I wasn't even sure what it was because 243 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: I'd never heard a bear quite sound like that. Like 244 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: I say, the cover is thick enough that I was 245 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: partially obscured by a spruce tree. When he came out 246 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: of the brush. He roared, brush and timber broke as 247 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: he come out of there, and his jaws are literally 248 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: fighting at the air. Oh yeah, he is not happy. 249 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: He's mad. 250 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: He is really mad. And I'm not that far. I'm 251 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: about to the back end of the woodshed. 252 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: I mean that's sub ten yards yea point, that's I 253 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: mean that's it's like eight feet, like ten to twelve feet. 254 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: And I froze behind this tree. But what I realized 255 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: he is reacting to my sense the scent stream and 256 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: with this swirling and he's literally biting at the only 257 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: thing he can get a hold of at that point, 258 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: which is my scent. So I knew better than to move. 259 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: And this is before bear spray, and I did have 260 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: a pistol on me, and I know how to shoot 261 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: it well. This bear turned and faced away from me. 262 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 2: What took me a split second. And I was young, 263 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: adule and strong. There was a big down, large tree 264 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: that has blown down against a fir tree that had 265 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: some limbs just up from where I was. And when 266 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: I saw that bear go behind a little spruce tree 267 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: from where I was standing behind my tree, I jumped 268 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: up on there and jumped up into that as hard 269 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: and fast as I could go, and I started to climb, 270 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: and I broke a limb. But the thing I had 271 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: going for me, everything was moving because of the wind. 272 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 2: Everything was moving, so that was kind of covered me 273 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: right there. So the bear first he backtracked me in 274 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: little ways, and then he realized that he's on the 275 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: back track, and then he starts to come my way. 276 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: I'm like, man, I'm not high enough. He can probably 277 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: pluck me right out of here, which I could tell 278 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: he would have hippy could have got older, so and 279 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: so every time his head went behind, I'd make another, 280 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: you know, pull myself up a couple more feet. So 281 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: he came my way, and I thought, oh boy, here 282 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 2: he's going to just track me right here. And he 283 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: was all bristled up, and he's still going home. He's 284 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 2: really huffing and unhappy. So then he went behind the 285 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: tree and he just stopped like he was just he's 286 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: just gonna see what's going on here. And he didn't 287 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 2: track me to where I jumped up there. You know, 288 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: I'm still not sure that I'm quite high enough that 289 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: I cracked a couple of branches, and he come around 290 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: the corner of that tree, I mean, ready to charge something. 291 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: So I'm like, I'm gonna be quiet and not do anything. 292 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 2: So he wondered actually away from me, towards towards a 293 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: big alder swamp there, and at that point anytime the 294 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: wind would blow harder to give me some cover on 295 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 2: the noise, I went from the top of this fir tree, 296 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: which wasn't tall enough, into a bare trunk lodge hole, 297 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: and I shinnied up that thing, and I made some 298 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: noise while I was shinnying, and he come right back 299 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 2: and stood kind of by that screw sh tree, and 300 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 2: we looked all around, but he never could see me, 301 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 2: and he didn't try. I couldn't believe he didn't track 302 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: me down right to that tree, which he could have, 303 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: but I think it was all because of the way 304 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: that my scent had been dispersed all through that area. 305 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: From the wind swirling around. 306 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 2: Yep. So I got up in the lodge pole and 307 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: I hadn't seen him for about, I don't know, thirty minutes. 308 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: I'm just hugging the tree, you know. And he got tiring, 309 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 2: and the thunderstorm had kind of gone through, and I 310 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 2: had started sliding down that bark out he comes out 311 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: of the alders and he ran up there and he 312 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: just and he just kept watching because at that point, 313 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: I'm not even drawing a breath, if you know what 314 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 2: I'm saying, I'm not gonna wrinkle any bark anymore. So well, 315 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: I just hung on. I'm gonna say double that time again. 316 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 2: And he had wandered back, and I thought, you know, 317 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: he's got a bed sight or something down in those alders, 318 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 2: and he's just waiting to see if I'm gonna show 319 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 2: up again. Because what this bears thinking. He came for 320 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: me once, he'll come for me again, and I'm gonna 321 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 2: be ready for him. 322 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 323 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: So when I finally got too tired, I just super 324 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 2: quietly as quietly as I could. I got myself into 325 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: the fir tree which was a lot quieter on the 326 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: bark and stuff, and I had limbs and got down 327 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: and I made a big bee line out of there, 328 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: made a big like multi mile hike to get out 329 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 2: of there without going backtracking to where which is largely 330 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 2: where he was on my uh what had been my 331 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: forward track going in there. 332 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: Once you got down the ground, did you ever see 333 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: him again and you just make it out of there? 334 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: Nope? I made it out of there. 335 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: That's a pretty harrowing one. 336 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: It was pretty harrowing. If I would have done anything wrong, 337 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: made a sound, not had the cover of that wind. 338 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: It was. 339 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 2: It was largely luck of a lot of circumstances and 340 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: knowing enough not to move, you know, when he was 341 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: when he was actively looking for me, right, and only 342 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 2: move when he was behind another tree. 343 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: Not to take off running. Yeah, it wouldn't have gone well. 344 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: Moden have gone well, not at all. And I have 345 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: inadvertently bumped bears off of kills, you know, grizzlies where 346 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: they had every good reason to be defensive and field 347 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 2: threatened where there was no ravens to indicate and no 348 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: track sign until I just there. I am I'm right 349 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 2: on it. I didn't linger, if you know, as soon 350 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 2: as I saw what was going on. We've got a bear. 351 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: You know, this is a grizzly barried carcass, and that 352 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: noise we heard was him basically moving off the other 353 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: side of this thing. And I've jumped other grizzlies out 354 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: of beds literally from you're to the table in alder thickets. 355 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 2: That the bear just broke as soon as they saw 356 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: and so as soon as we saw them, they just 357 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: broke and run. And you know, knock on wood. I've 358 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: been fortunate to have the right bears on the right days. 359 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: The right bear on the right day. I told y'all 360 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: wasn't exaggerating about that bear charge story. It's something, but 361 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: it's also a testament to how staying calm and thinking 362 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: through a situation can work out in your benefit. As 363 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: well as shining a light on Tom's unique perspective on bears. 364 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: Most outdoor people I know find tremendous. I'll call it enjoyment, satisfaction, 365 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: personal reward in seeing and interacting with nature of all kinds. 366 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 2: And I don't see if you have a healthy understanding 367 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 2: of the relative danger of that animal, which you go 368 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 2: to Yellowstone, I think most people would say they enjoy 369 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 2: seeing those bison and would enjoy seeing a grizzly bear 370 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 2: if they saw one, and it's no different anywhere else 371 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: in the habitat they exist. I would, you know, see 372 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: that as an enjoyable experience for most people rather than 373 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: an unpleasant one, if you know what I'm saying. It's 374 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 2: that if our understanding of interacting with these animals is 375 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: based on knowledge and what I'm gonna call a reality 376 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 2: based understanding of their behavior, which really changes the the 377 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 2: person if you will. For for the I think the 378 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: average person about the relative danger versus ability to enjoy 379 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: the experience. One of the things that we tell folks 380 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: in the instruction, every encounter is different when you have 381 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: a surprise encounter, even with a grizzly bear. You know, 382 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: if Fred Pinisi had asked me when we were on 383 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 2: a pack trip, you know, what do you do in 384 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: that situation a surprise encounter? I said, you know, largely 385 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 2: enjoy the opportunity to get to see that animal, because 386 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 2: you don't get to see many of them. You and 387 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,719 Speaker 2: that animal just happened to cross paths on the on 388 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:50,719 Speaker 2: the landscape and they're not typically unless you do something 389 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: really wrong a dangerous situation. But I can you know, 390 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: stay from my own experience that if if you stay 391 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: calm and you back up, give them space, that they 392 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: will realize that you're not a threat. Bears charge, and 393 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: most charges are false charges. I've never had a bear 394 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: touch me, but I've been charged by many, but they 395 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: always stopped and I never shot one of them. 396 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: Let's face it, today there's a lot of opinions around grizzlies. 397 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: They're an animal that just tends to pull out all 398 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: kinds of emotions across the board. I was particularly interested 399 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: in hearing Tom's, however, because his thoughts on them were 400 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: built off of countless years of first hand experience. And 401 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: like I said, this episode is just kicking off this subject, 402 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: and now that we have a grasp on Tom's knowledge 403 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: around the subject, I want to point the conversation towards 404 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: what is going on with them currently, such as their 405 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: current status on the endangered species list. 406 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: This valley here, you know, back in the day when 407 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: I I first started guiding here, the density of black 408 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: bears was hard to believe. And on average, you know, 409 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: people would ask me, you know how many grizzlies. Would 410 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: you see to black bears? And I would generally on 411 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: a hunt, I could show somebody and this is all 412 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: hiking about twenty bears on an average hunt, and one 413 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 2: about twenty to one, we'd see a grizzly. 414 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: You know. 415 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: One of the things that's very different is the habitat 416 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: use and selection by these bears. When I first started guiding, 417 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 2: one of the things you couldn't help but understand and 418 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: realize in this backcountry was the importance of high elevation 419 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: white bark pine to not only grizzly bears and black bears, 420 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 2: but many other species, but you know, bird species, mammal species, 421 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: and these pines produce you know, the cone produces a 422 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 2: large number of really high fat contents seeds. I learned 423 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: early on in the seventies because it was some of 424 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: the last great big pine nut years that were super 425 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: abundant production. Is that's where the all the bears in 426 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: the country were they go. And these trees occur from 427 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: sixty two hundred feet on up towards treeline and they 428 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: grow in in fairly you know, big stands where you're 429 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: in really good habitat for them, and they are fire resistant. 430 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: They're very long lived on the landscape. Some of them 431 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 2: are a thousand years old. These trees. 432 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 433 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 2: Early in my guiding career, I had been in some 434 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 2: what were extensive stands of white bark pines in these 435 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 2: high elevation basins and seen you know, up the seven 436 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 2: Grizzlies and a number of black bears exploiting these caches, 437 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: and you know, flocks of Clark's nutcrackers, you know, coming 438 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 2: and they're extracting the seeds, flying them to their you know, 439 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: individual food caches and returning and they're they're they're making 440 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 2: quite the ruckus. It was one of the most amazing 441 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: ecological relationships that I have ever observed. To this day, 442 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 2: it just teeming with life. These pine stands are gone. 443 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 2: This is the biggest ecological change in this part of 444 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 2: the world in my experience here. 445 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,239 Speaker 1: Do you know what happened to him? 446 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 2: Yes, it is a combination of an exotic fungus which 447 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 2: was brought here from Europe, pine in pine five needle 448 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: pine seedlings, and fire suppression at the landscape level. You know, 449 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: we effectively put out fires for a century, and that 450 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 2: fire suppression worked against the pines in other words, created 451 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: more competition and crowding for those trees, and they became 452 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 2: stressed from that, which is kind of the story of 453 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: the larger forest here. And it's at one level. And 454 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: then the other issue is with climate change, the amplification 455 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 2: of the bark beetle insects that are specific two various 456 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: tree species, and that would be mountain pine beetle and 457 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: western pine beetle for the ones that take out the 458 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: white bark pine. 459 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: Some multiple things working against it. Then all right, we 460 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: got a lot of information there, so let's quickly break 461 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: it down before we go any further forward. Grizzly bears 462 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: were listed on the Endangered Species list in nineteen seventy 463 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: five to prevent their extinction. If you remember from earlier, 464 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: Tom started guiding in nineteen seventy six, so he started 465 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: right after their listing, and he saw from his perspective 466 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: a key ecological shift in the large scale loss of 467 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: high elevation white bark pine habitat. And from this fact, 468 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: once again we've found our recurring theme without really looking 469 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: for it. How do humans influence grizzly bears today? You 470 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: may ask, Well, one way is the loss of those 471 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: white bark pines through a fungal disease called blister rust 472 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: that resulted from an exotic fungus being brought in from 473 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: Europe unintentionally, but we still brought it here. But I'm 474 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: curious how that affects grizzly bears today, as well as 475 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: Tom's thoughts on grizzly still being listed as endangered. Where 476 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: do you think the overall health. 477 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,479 Speaker 2: Of grizzly bear populations are right now? You know today, 478 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: there's a lot of discussion to delist them, and I 479 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: would support that on the basis of numbers and proven 480 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: you know, population growth, which is low but there if 481 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: you will sure, and the evidence is you know that 482 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 2: they're growing. I think it's three percent a year, and 483 00:30:52,400 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: mortality is up because of that. The fact that these 484 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: bears are utilizing low elevation and what I'm gonna call 485 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: habitats that have lots of human activities and residents and 486 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: roads in them. That was the first thing, you know, 487 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: with the big pine die off here that was most 488 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 2: amplified in the mid and late nineties mainly from pine beeedle, 489 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: but also blister us, was that the bear habitat use 490 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: you know, shifted from those places and high elevation habitats 491 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: to low elevation and the periphery of these wildernesses and 492 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: mountain complexes a lot more time spent down here trying 493 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: to make up those laws calories. 494 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: So you have basically a potential for more interactions with 495 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: humans and conflicts because they don't have that higher elevation 496 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: habitat anymore. Interesting. 497 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: Yep, and they're you know, I still get up there 498 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: quite a bit. And it isn't that there are not 499 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: food resources there. I mean there are glacier lilies that 500 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: they dig and eat, and all kinds of other plants 501 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: and forbes and berries on good berry years, but the 502 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 2: white bark pine component was a really big impact. I Mean, 503 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: these bears were, you know, places I'd never seen them before. Yeah, 504 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: you know, both grizzlies and black bears. And we had 505 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: really high bear mortality in you know, in both of 506 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: those food failure years, mainly from you know, bears just 507 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: death coming into people's places and getting into trouble, hit 508 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: on the highway, hit on other roads. And the bear 509 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 2: population has never really recovered since then. It's never really 510 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: come back. It's starting to show signs that it will, 511 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: but the grizzly use also at that time changed dramatically, 512 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: and you know, you saw bears all the way around 513 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 2: the proofery of the Bob Marshall Complex that were out 514 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: in the habitats where they previously they were just rarely seen, 515 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: and now that's become quite common there For quite a while. 516 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 2: It wasn't so much a population growth expansion as it 517 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: was an expansion of the landscape and habitats in which 518 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: they were willing to move to exploit and make up 519 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 2: those lost food resources. 520 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: Because they had to. 521 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: They had to. 522 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: Quick ecology lesson here. Remember this because it applies to 523 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: virtually all elements of wildlife and wildlife management. You can 524 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 1: never just do one thing, meaning every single action within 525 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: an ecosystem has multiple, interconnected and sometimes unpredictable consequences. The 526 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: Storytime just shared with us is a perfect example. We 527 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: know that the wilderness in the mountains where he spent 528 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: most of his time lost the majority of its high 529 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: elevation white bark pine habitat. But what does that mean? 530 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: What means we lost those trees, of course, but it 531 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: also led to a lost food source for black bears 532 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: and grizzly bears, which resulted in them having to venture 533 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: out to areas and places where they had often not 534 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: been before, if they had even been there at all, 535 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: places at lower elevations, places where they crossed paths with humans, 536 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: more more highways, more home sites, and so on. Actions 537 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: have consequences, and that's important to note. 538 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: It really is an amazing story of how small, unintended 539 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 2: actions by humans that had you know, good and different intentions. 540 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: So does that mean is there any you know, white 541 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: pine left? Do you find it scattered in them ores? 542 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: It just pretty much gone. 543 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 2: I've been up in some of these burns in the 544 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 2: white bark stands, and there's actually an encouraging amount of 545 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 2: white bark pine regeneration that is bird planted that you know, 546 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 2: they're finding some rush resistant trees on the landscape and 547 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: they're planting those. 548 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: So there's a chance that some of that habitat could return. 549 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: Yep, it's going to be a long time because they 550 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: they're usually at least fifty years old before they produce 551 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 2: a comany. Oh, you know, you got to take the 552 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 2: long view on this. But I'm i am more encouraged 553 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 2: and hopeful than I was after the big pine beetle 554 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: attack on these remnant trees. I'm based on the regeneration 555 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: hunt that I'm seeing. 556 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: Encouraged and hopeful to future for the bear populations going forward. 557 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, in terms of it's it's going to be a 558 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: few generations out if you know what I'm saying, generations 559 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: of people. But you know, my children will live to 560 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 2: see hopefully some cone production on these trees regenerating in 561 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: some of these high elevation stands. 562 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: I think all of us would be better off in 563 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: life if we learned a thing or two from Tom Parker. 564 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: And I don't just mean learn how to behave if 565 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: he ever encounter Baron, although that would be some good 566 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: stuff to know, but rather his big picture view on 567 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: wildlife and the places that they call home, and his 568 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: hopefulness that we could see a return of better black 569 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: bear and grizzly bear populations, as well as a delisting 570 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: of them from the endangered species list. And speaking of 571 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: the endangered species list, and what do y'all think should 572 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: grizzlies be delisted or not? In fact, that's your homework 573 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: for the time being, because next time we're diving further 574 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: into the grizzly topic and how they fit into today's world. 575 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: I want to thank all of you for listening to 576 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: Backwoods University as well as Bear Grease in This Country Life. 577 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: If you like this episode, share it with a friend 578 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: this week that you think would get a real good 579 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: kick out of that bear charge story, and stick around 580 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: because there's a whole lot more on the way.