Speaker 1: School of Humans. We've just received a call that could
Speaker 1: change everything. It's from a person who claims that he
Speaker 1: knows Casey well and says that on multiple occasions, Casey
Speaker 1: told him that he killed Rebecca. If it was kind
Speaker 1: of surreal she received his phone call. That's my dad
Speaker 1: Stan as a deputy sheriff. He knows Dennis through the
Speaker 1: police department. And you know, I couldn't believe his phone calls.
Speaker 1: I said, you know what, we need to call Dennis,
Speaker 1: right and then this was aw, what's is Saturday? Saturday?
Speaker 1: So we called him and said, Dennis, I called him.
Speaker 1: I said, look, you know, I'm very important to talk
Speaker 1: to you now regarding this case. He said, I can't
Speaker 1: talk to you for a week and a half. I'm
Speaker 1: teaching some course in little You need to know that
Speaker 1: this is extremely important. I meant. He got Kenny. You
Speaker 1: could tell he was pissed off. He said, okay, I
Speaker 1: was leading office in thirty minutes, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: like guy. So we live down there, and so so
Speaker 1: we started off and Catherine was saying, okay, Dennis, he
Speaker 1: said what you got like it was his first three words,
Speaker 1: and so she started talking about it, and it said
Speaker 1: she said that he was just that was it. He
Speaker 1: just said, there's no way. He said he has an
Speaker 1: avertie al bye and all. He went on and on
Speaker 1: he did basically from that moment he dismissed everything. I
Speaker 1: went through it and he just cut me off and
Speaker 1: he's like, do you want me You wanted to hear it,
Speaker 1: and he just dismissed it. And then he pulled out
Speaker 1: his IRAQ follow grad study, showing his pictures around. In
Speaker 1: September of two thousand and four, twenty two year old
Speaker 1: Rebecca Gould was brutally murdered in a remote area of
Speaker 1: the Arkansas Ozarks. Fourteen years later, her killer is still
Speaker 1: out there. I've come back to Mountain View with one
Speaker 1: mission to get justice for Rebecca. I'm Catherine Townsend and
Speaker 1: this is Helen Gone. People confess to murders for a
Speaker 1: variety of reasons. So far during our investigation, we've heard
Speaker 1: rumors that people have said they murdered Rebecca while they
Speaker 1: were in prison, or have bragged about killing her in
Speaker 1: order to appear tough. But this was different. This new
Speaker 1: witness said that Casey confessed while crying and that he
Speaker 1: knew things that at the time no one but Rebecca's
Speaker 1: family knew that Rebecca was ending her relationship with Casey.
Speaker 1: Details about the cleanup and the dumping of the body,
Speaker 1: and a description of the murder weapon. I know we
Speaker 1: have to share this new information with the police immediately,
Speaker 1: so I take all the information I've obtained up until
Speaker 1: this point to lead investigator Dennis Simons. I tell Dennis
Speaker 1: about the new witness who claims to have information about Casey.
Speaker 1: Dennis quickly shuts me down and tells me again that
Speaker 1: Casey has an airtight alibi. When I started this case,
Speaker 1: I had very definite ideas about good guys and bad guys.
Speaker 1: I thought that I would go to the police and
Speaker 1: that they would follow up. But this witness is scared,
Speaker 1: and I'm worried that if the police won't even take
Speaker 1: his statement, we may lose this new evidence for good.
Speaker 1: As I've mentioned before, my dad is a deputy sheriff
Speaker 1: and a notary, though he works in a neighboring county.
Speaker 1: We check with the sheriff and he confirms that we
Speaker 1: can take an official statement ourselves if you could just
Speaker 1: tell him when you told me. We recorded this interview
Speaker 1: for the police, but to protect the witnesses privacy. I'm
Speaker 1: just going to describe the conversation. His facts are consistent
Speaker 1: with the conversation that we had on the phone, but
Speaker 1: he goes into much more detail about his multiple conversations
Speaker 1: with Casey where he confessed. He pulls out a company
Speaker 1: issued phone card to help nail down the dates he
Speaker 1: worked with Casey. We talk for forty five minutes. You
Speaker 1: can tell he's scared. You can hear the shaking in
Speaker 1: his voice. After the witness finishes talking, my dad has
Speaker 1: him summarize what he said in writing this right here
Speaker 1: is what would keep you from probably having to repeat
Speaker 1: this to NERD officer. You know what I'm saying, I
Speaker 1: am a deputy, and oh this is it's just a statement,
Speaker 1: a swarm statement where you say, here's kind of what happened,
Speaker 1: and when you sign it, and I'll sign it, I'm
Speaker 1: a notably. Actually I can do that, and this is
Speaker 1: what we can use to go forward with the investigator
Speaker 1: on this case. And that would be the best thing
Speaker 1: to do is just you know, you've got it recorded,
Speaker 1: but you know, if you just make it a look quick,
Speaker 1: you know, comments here kind of what you said, then
Speaker 1: that'd be the best way to get Well, we really
Speaker 1: appreciate you coming forward because at least would you just
Speaker 1: sign your name out there? All right? Well, yeah, and
Speaker 1: if you think of anything else like, feel free to
Speaker 1: text me or call me anytime. I give the witness
Speaker 1: statement to the police. In addition to Dennis, I send
Speaker 1: the information to Mark Collingsworth, he was the original investigator
Speaker 1: on Rebecca's case. A few days later, I talked to
Speaker 1: the witness again. It seems that Dennis has received the
Speaker 1: statement because the witness tells me Dennis met with him.
Speaker 1: The witness says that when he shared his story, Dennis
Speaker 1: argued with him, shook his head, and told him that
Speaker 1: Casey had an alibie. The witness asked me whether Dennis
Speaker 1: believed him, and offers to give his statement to someone else.
Speaker 1: After a few days of silence, I start to check
Speaker 1: on progress. I send an email to the higher ups
Speaker 1: of the Arkansas State Police, and Mark Collingsworth calls me immediately.
Speaker 1: He asks if we can meet in person at his
Speaker 1: office in Little Rock. My dad drives me there. Mark
Speaker 1: tells him he can't come into the meeting, so my
Speaker 1: dad waits in the lobby for me. Once I'm in
Speaker 1: Mark's office. I offer to talk to him off the record,
Speaker 1: but he declines. He looks at me matter of factly
Speaker 1: and says, everything here is on the record, Miss Townsend.
Speaker 1: He tells me that Dennis has put many hours into
Speaker 1: the case and knows what he's doing, and that I
Speaker 1: should leave the investigating to him. We discuss some of
Speaker 1: the details of the case, and he mentions that they
Speaker 1: are open to new evidence, but he won't tell me
Speaker 1: what's become of the witness statement, and by the end
Speaker 1: of the meeting it is clear that they won't share
Speaker 1: any evidence with me. Like I said before, I understand
Speaker 1: that police need to hold back certain facts from the
Speaker 1: public in order to catch killers, but it's been fourteen
Speaker 1: years and I'm getting pretty tired of them stonewalling me.
Speaker 1: After my meeting with Mark, I start to wonder, what
Speaker 1: do the cops need? What else is out there that
Speaker 1: I could possibly uncover to help the case. While Dennis
Speaker 1: and Mark are still the investigators, fourteen years have brought
Speaker 1: some changes. There's now a new prosecutor on the case,
Speaker 1: Holly Meyer, so I reach out to her to see
Speaker 1: what she needs to prosecute a case like this. So
Speaker 1: yes and I'm wondering, is like, if you were to
Speaker 1: prosecute empathetically a case, what would you what types of
Speaker 1: stuff would you need? Proof beyond a reasonable doubt? Like, well,
Speaker 1: you can make proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a
Speaker 1: great number of ways. You can have direct evidence, evidence
Speaker 1: of the scene, eyewitnesses, and then you can have circumstantial
Speaker 1: evidence right availability, opportunity, motive. But it all has to
Speaker 1: add up to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. We meet
Speaker 1: at her office. I explained to Holly All that I've uncovered.
Speaker 1: She sits, listens and takes notes because I wasn't getting
Speaker 1: any help from LA enforcement, which is I understand's an
Speaker 1: open case. I started sort of just from the ground up.
Speaker 1: And Casey was her boyfriend at the time, who she
Speaker 1: was staying with, and it all happened at Casey's house.
Speaker 1: She was killed at Casey's house and that's the place
Speaker 1: where the crime scene cleanup was. He had the motive,
Speaker 1: he had the murder weapon. What do you see the
Speaker 1: motive beds He was obsessed with her and he didn't
Speaker 1: want her to leave him. Love and violence is powerful stuff,
Speaker 1: no doubt about it. And I wonder also, like why
Speaker 1: he was ruled out so quickly got her theories on that.
Speaker 1: She challenges many of the facts that I bring to her.
Speaker 1: I think the time I was just a little bit off.
Speaker 1: You're talking about four hours off, though, Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: lot off. I really think I think Dennis and Mark
Speaker 1: and those guys are a little more of a drill
Speaker 1: sergeant approach. But I think Casey's like, he's like the
Speaker 1: acoustic guitar strumming guy, the soul patch mister sensitive. And
Speaker 1: so I think when he came in there and started crying,
Speaker 1: I think they just didn't think he did it. They
Speaker 1: just thought, you know, they just didn't think he was
Speaker 1: capable of doing it, because he seems like this really
Speaker 1: sweet guy. And I think, you know, only if you've
Speaker 1: seen him be kind of psycho, you understand what he's
Speaker 1: capable of. Why did Danielle call him psycho the psycho
Speaker 1: career because she said that he was. She's like because
Speaker 1: of that, because he has like this really sweet If
Speaker 1: you see a picture of him, he's got like this
Speaker 1: sweet face and he kind of gives the impression of
Speaker 1: like the guitar storming, hippie stoner sweet guy. There are
Speaker 1: lots of things about this case that are kind of
Speaker 1: anomalies that I agree with Dandalone that it's one of
Speaker 1: the things that makes this case particularly challenging. Other pieces
Speaker 1: of evidence and these other statements point in other directions,
Speaker 1: and you know, not definitively going anywhere, but just kind
Speaker 1: of you know, all these other pieces that don't quite
Speaker 1: fit into the puzz because they're not what they appear
Speaker 1: to be, or they you know, weren't sufficiently nailed down,
Speaker 1: or they came up so much later that to which
Speaker 1: time it passed. She's familiar with all the rumors and
Speaker 1: theories we talk about. The most widely mentioned theory Chris,
Speaker 1: I'd seen him in prison before. It's a charming rogue.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's, he's he's when you talk to him,
Speaker 1: he's actually a personable guy. Yeah, and it seems to
Speaker 1: like toying with the police. I'm sure he does. So
Speaker 1: what have you seen of the official investigation? Nothing? Sometimes
Speaker 1: a fresh set of eyes is a really good thing
Speaker 1: for an investigation. I mean, I think so, I've worked
Speaker 1: with so many you know, I've worked on so many cases,
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, it's a positive. I mean, usually when
Speaker 1: someone kind of knows what they're doing. It's a positive
Speaker 1: thing and it can really help. But it's no slight
Speaker 1: on anyone who's done. You know, it's just it's just
Speaker 1: how it is. Sometimes it's it's you know, it's a
Speaker 1: good thing. I just stayed here because I really felt
Speaker 1: like I started to feel and it was more an
Speaker 1: emotional decision. I was like, I think spending time on
Speaker 1: the ground is actually like helping build relationships because like
Speaker 1: I get it. You know, someone comes in and says
Speaker 1: we're gonna help you the case, and you don't really
Speaker 1: you know, it takes time, Like I had to write
Speaker 1: people letters and approach a friend to get me to
Speaker 1: introduce me to that person, and you know, don't want
Speaker 1: to work on this case. You've got hours in minute,
Speaker 1: so obviously, yeah, I mean, and I feel really strongly
Speaker 1: about it, like I just want to find out who
Speaker 1: did it and get the right person arrested. That's my
Speaker 1: as my single one goal. So is it impossible, Well,
Speaker 1: nothing's impossible, but we're certainly not at a point where
Speaker 1: we have beyond a reasonable doubt on any one person.
Speaker 1: And there's an interesting when you have some interesting premises here,
Speaker 1: I want to think about them. Okay, if we can,
Speaker 1: if we can shake the trees and we can get
Speaker 1: something to fall out, that'd be great. One of Holly's
Speaker 1: co workers pops his head in the door of her office.
Speaker 1: I guess we've been talking for a while. All right,
Speaker 1: you're working so very hearty and be okay. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to work. It's a pativated arrest. Tell
Speaker 1: me if you get any interesting angles you've got myself.
Speaker 1: Holly seems to appreciate my passion for this case, but
Speaker 1: she says there are still too many unanswered questions. But
Speaker 1: as I leave her office, I feel confident that her
Speaker 1: energy may be exactly what we need to shake this
Speaker 1: case up and finally get some progress. Remember Laren, he
Speaker 1: was one of the people who was with Casey on
Speaker 1: the day Rebecca died. Over the past few weeks we've
Speaker 1: become friends. He keeps me up to date with his
Speaker 1: life and on all the happenings in Arkansas. What are
Speaker 1: you up to? Nothing much. I've got a job I'm
Speaker 1: starting tomorrow. Finally, really, he calls me about a new job.
Speaker 1: But more importantly, he tells me that after almost fifteen years,
Speaker 1: Dennis has reached out to him. This is great news
Speaker 1: because it seems like the police are re examining the case.
Speaker 1: Before I even talked to him, he had already called me,
Speaker 1: that's the message, been to my house while I wasn't there,
Speaker 1: went back only to say, I'm going to send this
Speaker 1: to you. Look at it. He's talking about Laren's statement
Speaker 1: from September twenty second, two thousand and four. Rather than
Speaker 1: meeting with Laren in person, he sent his statement back
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, he called that's the message, then come
Speaker 1: to the house, knocked on the door, then went to
Speaker 1: where I worked, asked around for me, and then I
Speaker 1: returned his call, not knowing any of that, and he said, oh, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I you know, I've been to your housing, your work.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, well, okay. I was like, I
Speaker 1: mean you know, and he's like, oh no, no big deal.
Speaker 1: Just reviewed this statement and let me know what you think.
Speaker 1: It's fine. I was like, oh, seems kind of anti climatic.
Speaker 1: Laren explains how he felt about his reinterview. He's approaching
Speaker 1: everybody he to with intimidation, like leading out with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's kind of the feeling I got. He probably,
Speaker 1: you know, he probably looked up saw that like I
Speaker 1: was on probation, you know, and all that, and was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, if this guy's got, you know, some kind
Speaker 1: of secret, I'll pressure it out of him. His exact
Speaker 1: words were case he didn't do is man, that was
Speaker 1: his exact words. I just feel like he's doing this
Speaker 1: to take a lot. That's that's kind of the you know,
Speaker 1: once I talked to him, you know, that's that's exactly
Speaker 1: the feeling I got. You know, beforehand, I was like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he's you know, shaking some treaties and knocking some cages,
Speaker 1: you know. But you know, once I talked to him,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, well, okay, whatever in the morning.
Speaker 1: It's weird because you know, I think about it a lot,
Speaker 1: and and and it's of course like scenarios sometimes play
Speaker 1: out like memories, and and the truth is that I
Speaker 1: just cannot remember. I wish, I wish, I wish they
Speaker 1: would have asked me down then, But I can't remember
Speaker 1: about the change of clothes things, if he went home
Speaker 1: before we left to go to the movies between that
Speaker 1: two and four, I can't tell you for certain that
Speaker 1: he would you know that he did not that I
Speaker 1: know for a fact, he stated, Son until he picked
Speaker 1: him up, because it really feels like that may have happened,
Speaker 1: like maybe he said that, but but then again, that's
Speaker 1: a scenario I've played out in so much in my mind. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you know, so I don't know. I just
Speaker 1: don't know that, you know. Laren struggles with his memory
Speaker 1: highlight one of the biggest challenges of this case. It's
Speaker 1: impossible to forget what happened to Rebecca, but for those
Speaker 1: closest to the case, some of the details can be
Speaker 1: hard to remember. He said, I can't remember exactly the words,
Speaker 1: but along the lines of, oh, you know, some people
Speaker 1: are just in it for uh fame, fortune and book deals.
Speaker 1: At the first mention of your name, he like interrupted
Speaker 1: the whole, the whole you know, conversation, like like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: she's not gonna mean what you know, I guess, you know,
Speaker 1: by protocol he's probably supposed to do. But yeah, he
Speaker 1: was like, just just just for the record, she's got
Speaker 1: nothing to do with this investigation of what we're doing.
Speaker 1: You know, we'll be right back. Taylor is now back
Speaker 1: in Atlanta. We're still working together, but from afar I
Speaker 1: call her from Dad's house. During another Arkansas thunderstorm. Hey man,
Speaker 1: what's up. Hey, how's it going. I've relaxed a lot more.
Speaker 1: I've just kind of accepted I'm going to be here
Speaker 1: till this is over. I'm relaxing, you know, and I
Speaker 1: just feel like, you know, it's happening. I've just got
Speaker 1: it weirdly, and I know this sounds this sounds really strange,
Speaker 1: but like the fact that I'm physically here does matter.
Speaker 1: I just have to remember that it does matter. It
Speaker 1: makes people, you know, it's the only reason it's unfolded
Speaker 1: like this, I think because they know I'm not going away. Basically,
Speaker 1: hopefully at the end of all of this, we will
Speaker 1: have justice for Rebecca and the Goold family, you know
Speaker 1: we will. A few days later, I get a call
Speaker 1: from George with some interesting updates. Okay, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: tell you I got an incredible gin this morning that
Speaker 1: Vivian had the interview Kate again and Mark Hollingsworth get
Speaker 1: back involved in the king. Wow. It's interesting because when
Speaker 1: I went to Seymour Collingsworth he said, you know, we
Speaker 1: these cases are regularly reviewed and this and that I've
Speaker 1: just seen too much craziness now because because Laren was saying, look,
Speaker 1: he said, upon rereading this statement, right, he said, it
Speaker 1: occurs to me that there are a lot of holes.
Speaker 1: Laren was like, it's pretty vague, he said, and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember and everything, But he said, but I
Speaker 1: do remember that at the time I thought that, like
Speaker 1: from the time I saw Casey that afternoon around two
Speaker 1: or two thirty that I you know, I remember thinking
Speaker 1: I had eyes on him or someone had eyes on
Speaker 1: him pretty much from then till, you know, all night.
Speaker 1: And he said, but it never occurred to me that
Speaker 1: it could have already happened. That is just crazy. It
Speaker 1: just seems like to the point where one of these
Speaker 1: guys would step up to the playton and say, hey, none,
Speaker 1: that takes me sense. I just question why he was
Speaker 1: ruled out so they when they refused to like rule
Speaker 1: out anyone else or give even basic details about the case,
Speaker 1: why was he ruled out so publicly and so quickly.
Speaker 1: That's just weird to me. Yeah, and it's gonna come across.
Speaker 1: I know what they're going to try to do. They're
Speaker 1: going to try to paint me as some reporter who's like,
Speaker 1: you know, oh, she's just going out and doing all that.
Speaker 1: You know what bullshit I've tried to give them. I
Speaker 1: begged them to listen to this. I begged them to
Speaker 1: listen to the information. And they've kicked me out of
Speaker 1: their office, repeatedly told me I was stirring up shit
Speaker 1: and told me to my own business. And it's just
Speaker 1: utterly ridiculous. Oh yeah, you know what they're gonna do.
Speaker 1: They're gonna try to say, oh, she's from New York
Speaker 1: or LA or wherever she's from, to know what she's
Speaker 1: talking about. Blah blah blah. Remember, Dennis was only assigned
Speaker 1: to Rebecca's case a few months into the investigation. Mark
Speaker 1: Hollingsworth was the original investigator. He's now in charge of
Speaker 1: the Criminal Investigations Division of Arkansas State Police. I don't
Speaker 1: think until I relieved, until I started writing about it
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, I don't think they had done any
Speaker 1: single thing on this case since probably two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: would be my guess, because that I was trying to
Speaker 1: thank this morning of when they would and look for
Speaker 1: that piano leg over the White River, and I believe
Speaker 1: it was those six and when they got kipped off
Speaker 1: that it was thrown into the River, and I may
Speaker 1: be wrong about that. In two thousand and five, it
Speaker 1: was reported that police received a tip that led them
Speaker 1: to drag the White River. It was never reported if
Speaker 1: anything of great evidentiary value was found. Maybe like they
Speaker 1: actually went in search for d White over on a
Speaker 1: White River like early on in the investigation and then
Speaker 1: way later on years later. So guy, But anyway, I
Speaker 1: think that that was probably the last time anybody had
Speaker 1: done anything Kate pubble baking money on that. I actually
Speaker 1: think after what I've seen with these witness statements, none
Speaker 1: of those guys were interviewed. They were all interviewed on
Speaker 1: September twenty second, which is the day after she went missing.
Speaker 1: So like it wasn't a serious thing, man, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And I don't think they were interviewed
Speaker 1: again after the body was found. Laren wasn't. I bet
Speaker 1: none of the others were either, So like he probably
Speaker 1: never had the opportunity. Absolutely crazy, Jennifer is baking all
Speaker 1: of his Kate on interviews that happened that he probably
Speaker 1: didn't even take part in on September twenty three, because
Speaker 1: Dennis came in a little later on the case. I
Speaker 1: can't be sure if or when he conducted interviews. But
Speaker 1: Laren and another one of Casey's friends signed statements were
Speaker 1: dated September twenty second, two thousand and four. He has
Speaker 1: not interviewed any of them until like the last couple
Speaker 1: of weeks, and he's not really interviewing that, He's just
Speaker 1: sending him back their own statements. One thing that I
Speaker 1: always tell young journalists to never do again. I always
Speaker 1: tell him if they always be somewhat captible. I look
Speaker 1: at police, tell you this is Helen gone. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back. Our witness reaches back out. He tells us
Speaker 1: that the podcast has been stirring things up in Melbourne.
Speaker 1: Then he drops a bomb. He says, Casey came over
Speaker 1: to his house screaming and freaking out and asking who else?
Speaker 1: He told, Yeah, I got a call from our witness
Speaker 1: and it was very disturbing. Actually, he asked, how's the
Speaker 1: case going. If I need to give my story again
Speaker 1: to a new investigator, please let me know. Casey found
Speaker 1: out about me talking to Dennis and confronting me about it.
Speaker 1: He was freaking out and screaming at me, asking who
Speaker 1: else I told. I don't know what else to say, Taylor,
Speaker 1: how fucked up? Is that that neither Taylor nor I
Speaker 1: can believe that somehow the identity of our witness got
Speaker 1: back to Casey. If solving this case was urgent before,
Speaker 1: it's now become imperative. We go back over the facts
Speaker 1: of the case as we know them. What is it
Speaker 1: that we think gonna path on grit? I have no idea.
Speaker 1: I think it's because I think it's because, as we
Speaker 1: talked about before, both Chris and JB were in Rebecca's
Speaker 1: recent contacts. You know, he's a bad I'm saying this
Speaker 1: with air quotes, bad guy, drug dealer around town. I
Speaker 1: think that also, I think that it got complicated because
Speaker 1: I think Chris and JB both probably and you know,
Speaker 1: later on, when Jennifer and Justin got pulled in. Like
Speaker 1: I said, there's a little bit of truth to everything.
Speaker 1: Justin was still probably in love with Rebecca, and you know,
Speaker 1: Jennifer probably had some kind of beef weather, although it
Speaker 1: looked like that had largely been kind of gotten over
Speaker 1: by the time of the murder. And you know, JB
Speaker 1: had sold her some weed, and Chris did deal drugs,
Speaker 1: and all these things have a little bit of truth
Speaker 1: to them. But at the end of the day, someone
Speaker 1: crying and saying they did it and how they did
Speaker 1: it and why, and describing the murder weapon. I can't
Speaker 1: get Casey's alleged words out of my head. Not why
Speaker 1: are you saying this about me? But who else did
Speaker 1: you tell? A week later, Larry fills an official complaint
Speaker 1: in the hopes that a new investigator will be put
Speaker 1: on the case. It should have been solved. It was
Speaker 1: an easy case to solve. It should have been solved
Speaker 1: within the first two weeks. Everything was there. Had had
Speaker 1: the right people come in to play almost immediately, I
Speaker 1: don't think we'd be where we are today now. The
Speaker 1: other thing is if you look at cases that or
Speaker 1: cold cases, you know, you get some pretty aggressive people
Speaker 1: searching those and in some cases you don't and the
Speaker 1: ones where there's a sense of aggression and we're going
Speaker 1: to solve this just like you guys. They dig up
Speaker 1: things that are that are buried and that may have
Speaker 1: been obvious. So over the years, as I've talked to
Speaker 1: law enforcement, I've just since this complacency that we did
Speaker 1: our work, this is what we have. You know, we'll
Speaker 1: go we'll still work on it. But I think they
Speaker 1: formed their opinions early, and I don't think they're the
Speaker 1: least bit open minded to the fact that they could
Speaker 1: absolutely be completely wrong. Now, the position I hold today
Speaker 1: is the longer it is, the more complex it becomes.
Speaker 1: So you actually have people that you can't find anymore.
Speaker 1: You have certain witnesses that may have died, or certain
Speaker 1: people move on, the stories may change. In this case,
Speaker 1: you hope that maybe maybe people that were very young
Speaker 1: at the time have matured and have a sense of
Speaker 1: a conscience. You know, there may not have been a
Speaker 1: conscience with some of these people, which is as you know,
Speaker 1: the truth of a lot of people that do heinous
Speaker 1: crimes is they just don't have a conscience. So I
Speaker 1: would have to categorize the case now is complex, and
Speaker 1: it's been made more complex by law enforcement. We think that,
Speaker 1: you know, they're so highly trained and that they have integrity,
Speaker 1: and a lot of them do. And I honestly at
Speaker 1: this point don't know in Rebecca's case, if there's anybody
Speaker 1: that I can trust anymore. It is a cold case,
Speaker 1: and I'm sick of of these people hiding under the
Speaker 1: guise of this is an active investigation and all they
Speaker 1: have to do is say, well, we just interviewed somebody
Speaker 1: last week, Therefore it's an active investigation. And then nobody
Speaker 1: can see the file. They won't let me have her
Speaker 1: any of her forensics, They wouldn't let me have any
Speaker 1: of her of the medical, the anatomical findings. And you
Speaker 1: just want other people to be able to look at this.
Speaker 1: And so in a small town where when maybe one
Speaker 1: person is hovering over this, there are lots of ways
Speaker 1: that that person can kind of cover up this the file.
Speaker 1: And I certainly don't want to imply that's being done here,
Speaker 1: but that's what that's the appearance that you give if
Speaker 1: you don't open up. So when I say this is
Speaker 1: a complex case, it's been made complex because of longement
Speaker 1: and their complete unwillingness to allow people that I could
Speaker 1: employ to come in and take a look at the
Speaker 1: case itself and maybe make some suggestions or get a
Speaker 1: different sense of direction, or as they say, another pair
Speaker 1: of eyes. So even though I turn these things over
Speaker 1: to law enforcement, there was never any follow up that
Speaker 1: I'm aware of. There may have been some, but I
Speaker 1: almost feel like it was just filed in the in
Speaker 1: that one drawer that kind of stays there and just
Speaker 1: put out of the way and done so, maybe because
Speaker 1: this feeling is we know who did it, we don't
Speaker 1: need any more. This is who this is, who it is.
Speaker 1: We just need to come up with enough evidence, and
Speaker 1: they never seem to have enough evidence. So as a
Speaker 1: as a dad, it gets incredibly frustrating because you feel
Speaker 1: like if somebody had put the time in it, it's
Speaker 1: it is still to this day of solvable case. It
Speaker 1: just takes some cooperation. There's people that have written on it,
Speaker 1: and obviously you guys are going to go public with it.
Speaker 1: I think that's amazing, and I just think it would
Speaker 1: I think, honestly if people that have a chance to
Speaker 1: kind of pay attention to some of the things that
Speaker 1: either go on or don't go on in cases, would
Speaker 1: be incredibly offended and disappointed, because if this became your daughter,
Speaker 1: your son, you would certainly want everything in the world
Speaker 1: done to actively pursue an investigation to lead to some
Speaker 1: kind of an arrest. Larry is petitioning the Arkansas state
Speaker 1: legislature for the creation of Rebecca's Law, which would allow
Speaker 1: more open access to cold case files. I don't anybody
Speaker 1: try that's not guilty, and I understand the prosecutors when
Speaker 1: they say I need more information. I think the only
Speaker 1: the thing that's kept the Cammas is the fact that
Speaker 1: I know where Rebecca is and that I have faith
Speaker 1: that she's in heaven, and that's comforting. And if I
Speaker 1: didn't have that faith, then I probably couldn't stay composed
Speaker 1: and still continue to try to let the system work.
Speaker 1: I think the system is capable of working. I think
Speaker 1: the system is hard to get to work sometimes it's
Speaker 1: it is not infallible. It has lots of flaws, but
Speaker 1: as people say, it's the best system in the world.
Speaker 1: And my comment to that was, you know, there's always
Speaker 1: room for improvement. And that's the reason for Rebecca Law,
Speaker 1: that's the reason for things that help bring these cases
Speaker 1: to fruition and get them solved. It's been around five
Speaker 1: months since the events in this episode occurred. According to
Speaker 1: the Arkansas State Police, the investigation into Rebecca's murder is
Speaker 1: still open and active. We have reached out to the
Speaker 1: third man our witness mentioned. We wrote him a letter
Speaker 1: in prison. He wrote us back, and nothing that he
Speaker 1: said in his letter contradicted our witness's account. The police
Speaker 1: have supposedly talked to him as well. But as far
Speaker 1: as we know, they have not yet been able to
Speaker 1: independently corroborate our witness's story. Chris is back in jail.
Speaker 1: He's in the custody of the Arkansas State Police, and
Speaker 1: it looks like he may be there for a while.
Speaker 1: We have confirmed that a new investigator, Kim Warren, has
Speaker 1: been assigned to the case. Hopefully the case will be
Speaker 1: looked at with fresh eyes, because otherwise the search for
Speaker 1: Rebecca's killer could continue to be dead in the water.
Speaker 1: From this point forward, I'm going to change the format
Speaker 1: for a little while. I'll be posting updates and more
Speaker 1: of an on the spot manner, sometimes longer, sometimes quick bites,
Speaker 1: new interviews as I talk to new people, new facts,
Speaker 1: new leads, so check the feed often. We're now in
Speaker 1: this together. There are some people listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: many who may be relieved that, at least for now,
Speaker 1: we've come to an end. But I want them to
Speaker 1: know that this is just the beginning, because, like I
Speaker 1: said before, We're not stopping until we catch Rebecca's killer.
Speaker 1: I'm Catherine Townsend and this is Helen Gone. Helen Gone
Speaker 1: is a joint production between How Stuffworks and School of Humans.
Speaker 1: It is written and recorded by me. Catherine Townsend. Taylor
Speaker 1: Church is our producer and story editor. Audio editing and
Speaker 1: designed by Jonathan Sleep, mix engineer Glenn Mattulo audio mixing
Speaker 1: and Love by Tunewelders. Executive producers Brandon Barr and Else
Speaker 1: Crowley for School of Humans and Connell Byrne and Chuck
Speaker 1: Bryant for How Stuff Works. Our field producer is James Morrison.
Speaker 1: Our researcher is Sandy Klosterman. Themon original score by Ben
Speaker 1: Solee available wherever you get your music. To dig into
Speaker 1: the investigation, please visit Helen goonepodcast dot com or follow
Speaker 1: us on social media. School of Humans z