1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,680
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,800
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

3
00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power, you'd like

4
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 1: to share.

5
00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,080
Speaker 2: Sheet us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

6
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:10,240
Speaker 2: dot com.

7
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,560
Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me.

8
00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,639
Speaker 2: I'm like a squat person. I've never lied to you.

9
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,520
Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers.

10
00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,159
Speaker 3: Don't welcome to trust Me.

11
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,120
Speaker 1: The podcast Bob Cults extreme belief in the abusive power

12
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,159
Speaker 1: from two growers, not showers, you've actually experienced it. I'm

13
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,760
Speaker 1: Lolabloc and I am Megan Elizabeth, and today our guest

14
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,040
Speaker 1: is doctor Richard Tedesky, Professor of psychology at UNC Charlotte

15
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,920
Speaker 1: and pioneer of the concept of post traumatic growth or

16
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: positive transformation after trauma.

17
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 3: So exciting. I love this episode.

18
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,600
Speaker 1: We're going to dive into post traumatic growth, it's different forms,

19
00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,640
Speaker 1: and why it's different from resilience, his definition of trauma,

20
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,200
Speaker 1: and how the disruption of our core beliefs plays a role,

21
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: and how shifting focus after trauma to what your life

22
00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,520
Speaker 1: can be now can change everything.

23
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,680
Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about the importance of finding

24
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,119
Speaker 2: what he calls an expert companion, what integration of our

25
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 2: trauma means and now having a mission and telling our

26
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 2: story can.

27
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:08,640
Speaker 4: Help us here.

28
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 3: That's right, guys, couldn't agree more.

29
00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: I think after we have this conversation, Megan, you said

30
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: this was like one of the best yes conversations that

31
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 1: you've had throughout the podcast. I'm intrigued man, about the

32
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,440
Speaker 1: idea of a growth.

33
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,119
Speaker 2: We've heard it all the time, right, your pain makes

34
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,000
Speaker 2: you grow, it brings you power, blah blah.

35
00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,199
Speaker 4: But I got it in a new way where it's.

36
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,920
Speaker 2: Just like, oh, so hopefully he'll get that to you

37
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 2: guys too.

38
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, not to hype it up too much, but it's amazing.

39
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,880
Speaker 1: Before we dive in with him, Megan, what's your cultial thing.

40
00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,000
Speaker 2: I have just been the cultiest, most delicious weekend and

41
00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,400
Speaker 2: Joshua Tree doing a workshop with some girls. It's kind

42
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,240
Speaker 2: of a pussy power type of a workshop and such

43
00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,600
Speaker 2: amazing growth and healing. And we were talking on the

44
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 2: way home. I'm like, if that was a cult, would

45
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 2: you join it? You know, if she started telling you

46
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 2: you have to do this or it just reminded me

47
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,520
Speaker 2: what we always come back to, which is that everything

48
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,359
Speaker 2: technically can be a cull. Everything technically is a cult relationships,

49
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 2: all of it. You just have to have a lot

50
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 2: of different interests and a lot of different people that

51
00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:24,239
Speaker 2: are able to interact with your critical thinking. Otherwise you're isolated.

52
00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,920
Speaker 2: And then even this beautiful priestess who's like so healing

53
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,080
Speaker 2: could turn bad, not even by any menace of her own. Yeah.

54
00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:33,680
Speaker 2: I was talking to a girl and she's like, yeah,

55
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,360
Speaker 2: I was raising a cult too. It was like this

56
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,320
Speaker 2: goddess priestess cult. And I was like, oh, that actually

57
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 2: sounds nice, and she was like, yeah, it was nice,

58
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,080
Speaker 2: except for the fact that they believe you're a pussy

59
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,040
Speaker 2: is your power, so you should start having sex when

60
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 2: you're twelve with the men they pick for you.

61
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,480
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

62
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 4: You know, everything can turn bad.

63
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely everything can turn bad. Actually, even this week I

64
00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,960
Speaker 1: saw some posts from one of our more recent guests

65
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 1: and some comments apparently there's an organization that was specifically

66
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:09,000
Speaker 1: developed to help cult survivors that even that organization is

67
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,959
Speaker 1: getting critiqued now and people are leaving and saying they're

68
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,200
Speaker 1: not organizationally or structurally healthy, which is just so interesting

69
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:17,560
Speaker 1: because a.

70
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,000
Speaker 4: Group it's unreal.

71
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying it's a freaking cult

72
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,760
Speaker 1: or whatever. But it is so difficult to have a healthy,

73
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,359
Speaker 1: hierarchical group, Like, it's just really hard.

74
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 2: So this woman is super cool and doesn't act like

75
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,080
Speaker 2: a teacher or a master or anything, and it works.

76
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:38,200
Speaker 3: What was she doing?

77
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,040
Speaker 2: I mean, it's funny because I think with each group

78
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,720
Speaker 2: of people it's completely different. Our first day there, we

79
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 2: were all kind of like, oh, so we did what

80
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,800
Speaker 2: did we do the first day? You know, we wrote

81
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,440
Speaker 2: letters to our pussy r pussy's wrote letters back to us.

82
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 3: But what did they say to you?

83
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,480
Speaker 4: Wouldn't you like to know? That's between me and her?

84
00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:57,160
Speaker 2: What about you?

85
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,560
Speaker 3: I feel like I can't not mention the Roe Vwade thing.

86
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:02,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just.

87
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 3: The most theocratic shit.

88
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: It would be one thing if it was like there

89
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 1: was a new study released about how consciousness actually begins

90
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,320
Speaker 1: at three months or whatever.

91
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 3: That's not a thing.

92
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,039
Speaker 1: This is strictly based on the personal beliefs of the

93
00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,920
Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices that are making this decision. So if

94
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:25,159
Speaker 1: anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about.

95
00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:25,480
Speaker 4: Roe v.

96
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 1: Wade was a pivotal moment in American politics when it

97
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 1: was determined that it was legal for women to have abortions.

98
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 1: This does not mean some people present it that liberals

99
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,839
Speaker 1: be going around murdering babies at eight nine months.

100
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 3: That's not a thing.

101
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,640
Speaker 1: It just means that, like, if it's necessary, if it's

102
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,200
Speaker 1: up to the woman to make that choice.

103
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,880
Speaker 3: It's up to her and her doctor. That was supposed

104
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 3: to be settled law.

105
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,719
Speaker 1: Multiple justices who are now on the Supreme Court who

106
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,800
Speaker 1: were interviewed about it said it was settled law, and

107
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: it was established precedent, and they weren't like gunning to

108
00:04:58,279 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 1: overturn it.

109
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 3: Guess what they are. That's why so.

110
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 1: Many of us were afraid of Donald Trump becoming president,

111
00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: because we knew that this would fucking happen, and it

112
00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,960
Speaker 1: is happening, and it's terrifying. It's not terrifying for me

113
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,279
Speaker 1: personally because I live in California, but it's terrifying for

114
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 1: women who live in Texas, for example, like the woman

115
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,559
Speaker 1: who just got put into prison for on a murder

116
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 1: charge because she gave herself a freaking abortion. Anyway, there's

117
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 1: so many stories I've been seeing circulating about, like women

118
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,160
Speaker 1: who would have died if had they not had their abortions,

119
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 1: women who are mothers now but weren't able to be before,

120
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,640
Speaker 1: and like, couldn't be mothers today if they didn't have

121
00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: their the abortion that was necessary for their safety before.

122
00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,719
Speaker 1: There are states that want to outlawed even in the

123
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,000
Speaker 1: case of the safety of them mother even in the

124
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,360
Speaker 1: case of rape and incests. Like it's just so clearly

125
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: about their own personal ideas.

126
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,240
Speaker 3: Which is a religion running the country.

127
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,680
Speaker 1: That is religion running the country, and that is terrifying

128
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 1: because it's not about murder at that point. Were if

129
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 1: you really cared about the health and safety of people.

130
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 1: We've all made this point before, but like you would

131
00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 1: consider the health and safety of the mother and also

132
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 1: the health and safety of the babies once they become

133
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:02,840
Speaker 1: actual children.

134
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 4: Obviously, abortions are not pleasant.

135
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,040
Speaker 3: People aren't running around being like I want to have

136
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 3: an abortion.

137
00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,640
Speaker 2: I didn't like when Lena done. I'm tweeted like I

138
00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 2: wish I would have gotten one, just so I get it,

139
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 2: Like that's so stupid. Yeah, it's a big deal. It's

140
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 2: a big fucking deal.

141
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,040
Speaker 1: If you're going to force mothers to carry children to adoption,

142
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 1: then you better be forcing the fathers to be financially

143
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 1: responsible for that child for the rest of their life,

144
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:25,359
Speaker 1: which they fucking don't like.

145
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:26,080
Speaker 4: Good luck with that.

146
00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:27,200
Speaker 3: Good luck.

147
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,600
Speaker 1: Also the thing that also really sticks in my craw

148
00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,400
Speaker 1: the Republican Party was not strongly associated with this idea

149
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,599
Speaker 1: of abortion being like one of the primary issues. That's

150
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,599
Speaker 1: not a thing that just historically that was not the case.

151
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 1: It was specifically a Catholic thing. It was not an

152
00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,839
Speaker 1: evangelical thing overall. And then there was one fucking guy,

153
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:47,640
Speaker 1: I think it was in the seventies, maybe the eighties,

154
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,280
Speaker 1: who was looking for ways to appeal to more voters.

155
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 1: And after Roe v. Wade, there was some sentiment about

156
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 1: how women were having too much sex and not staying

157
00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 1: in the home, and that made evangelicals uncomfortable.

158
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 3: So they took that sentiment. They had been.

159
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 1: Looking for issues, actively looking for issues that would get

160
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,600
Speaker 1: more evangelical voters to come to the Republican Party. This

161
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,040
Speaker 1: was the one that happened to resonate, and so they

162
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,080
Speaker 1: fixated on it, and they made it a thing, and

163
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,200
Speaker 1: they pushed it. And so I just keep coming back

164
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 1: to why do you believe.

165
00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 3: What you believe? Why do you believe what you believe?

166
00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: Because I also used to believe that abortion was always

167
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 1: wrong and it was murder or whatever, and then I

168
00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I'm getting that belief from my religion

169
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 1: and not from my actual own critical thinking skills of

170
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,280
Speaker 1: what that actually means, what the consequences actually are. When

171
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 1: abortion is illegal, women still have abortions, but they're more dangerous,

172
00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:38,720
Speaker 1: more women die.

173
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:39,960
Speaker 3: That's just how it works.

174
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 1: If you actually want women to stop having abortions, then

175
00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,760
Speaker 1: they should a be legal, but also birth control, focus

176
00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 1: on birth control, focus on sex education. Many of these

177
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,240
Speaker 1: states are also trying to fucking outlaw birth control. So

178
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,920
Speaker 1: at that point, it is not about murdering a baby.

179
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,120
Speaker 1: At that point one, it's clearly about you do not

180
00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 1: like women having sex outside of marriage. You do not

181
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: like women having seen that is not for like for

182
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,280
Speaker 1: the purpose of conceiving a baby, which in my opinion,

183
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 1: is entirely about control and has nothing to do with

184
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 1: your feelings about the safety of babies. Can we stop

185
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 1: pretending it is about the safety of babies.

186
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:15,160
Speaker 3: I don't want.

187
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 1: Women to have abortions either, but if they have to,

188
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 1: they need to be able to do that if it

189
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,440
Speaker 1: is the thing that's going to save their life and

190
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: not fuck everything up for both them and the child.

191
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it also scares me a lot.

192
00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 1: Because the consequences of this decision could reach far beyond

193
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,080
Speaker 1: abortion and health care for women. There are so many

194
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 1: other things that could reverberate from this decision, and it

195
00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 1: is terrifying. Religion should not have a place in our government.

196
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 1: That is what our country was founded on. Literally, that

197
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,680
Speaker 1: is the point. Ye, and look what's happening. I'm scared, okay,

198
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,719
Speaker 1: and brand uh, I get it. Listen if I'm alienating

199
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,600
Speaker 1: any listeners, have a conversation with me about it.

200
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,480
Speaker 3: But it's not black and white. That's the problem.

201
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,680
Speaker 1: It's they're like, if you actually listen to women, there's

202
00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,120
Speaker 1: so many stories about why it's a horrible experience. They

203
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,160
Speaker 1: didn't want to do it, they had to do it anyway.

204
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:05,560
Speaker 1: Now back to post traumatic growth.

205
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,440
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, this episode is so good. We'll start

206
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 4: this interview so you won't be mad at us and

207
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:11,560
Speaker 4: give us five.

208
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:24,079
Speaker 3: Starts, five cars, five stars. I'll leave five stars. Welcome

209
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 3: doctor Richard Tedesky to the show.

210
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,480
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, glad to be here, so excited

211
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 5: to talk.

212
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,520
Speaker 1: To you today. My mom loves your work. My mom

213
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 1: is a media psychology PhD. And she was like fangirling

214
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,679
Speaker 1: out about the fact that we're having you on our podcast,

215
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,560
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to have you on. So you're

216
00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 1: a professor of psychology, licensed psychologists for over thirty five years,

217
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,040
Speaker 1: and you helped originate the concept of post traumatic growth.

218
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 3: Did I get that right?

219
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:49,840
Speaker 5: That's right, Yes, you've got it.

220
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 1: Well, I guess first I want to ask what made

221
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: you want to study post traumatic growth?

222
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,520
Speaker 3: Like, what made you interested in that? Well?

223
00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 5: I guess I was interested as a psychologist long time

224
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,280
Speaker 5: time ago, and what makes people do well in life

225
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,600
Speaker 5: and what makes people overcome obstacles. And I was working

226
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,360
Speaker 5: in the field of trauma to some degree, but all

227
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 5: the work on trauma is generally oriented towards how people

228
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 5: are damaged. I thought there was room for looking at

229
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,000
Speaker 5: the remarkable aspects of people's stories that I was hearing

230
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 5: about and going more deeply into that part of things.

231
00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,480
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, can you define post traumatic growth

232
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,840
Speaker 1: for us and explain why it's different from resilience?

233
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 5: Sure, post traumatic growth is the change that people often

234
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 5: report in the aftermath of traumatic events through a struggle

235
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,800
Speaker 5: that they go through to re understand how they are

236
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,480
Speaker 5: to live life now that what they understood about living

237
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 5: life has been disrupted.

238
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,439
Speaker 4: So it's kind of like a dark night of the soul.

239
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,600
Speaker 5: Certainly people have to go through a struggle. That's something

240
00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 5: that we emphasize in our work that it's not an

241
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 5: easy thing for people, and that's what distinguishes it from

242
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,320
Speaker 5: resilience in a way, because when people are resilient, that

243
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,840
Speaker 5: means that they are not greatly impacted by an event,

244
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,680
Speaker 5: that they have the ability to either resist it or

245
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 5: bounce back from it easily. Post traumatic growth comes after

246
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 5: as you're intimating some really difficult consideration of what has happened,

247
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,720
Speaker 5: what life is about now, how to reconstruct in some

248
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 5: way that makes sense. So that can take a lot

249
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,280
Speaker 5: of struggle on the part of a person.

250
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 1: We just did an episode on resilience, and this is

251
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,840
Speaker 1: such a great thing to be talking about. After that,

252
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,200
Speaker 1: we discussed how some people aren't actually impacted by potentially

253
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,200
Speaker 1: traumatic events. Some people are able to bounce back pretty quickly.

254
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 1: But now we want to dive into Okay, so what

255
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,640
Speaker 1: happens if you do have trauma, If you experience something

256
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,760
Speaker 1: and it did greatly impact your life, are you destined

257
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,280
Speaker 1: to be facing the struggle forever? And are you going

258
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:54,960
Speaker 1: to just have PTSD for the rest of your life,

259
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,080
Speaker 1: because I think we talk about trauma right now in

260
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 1: this way that makes it sound like it's permanent and

261
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,880
Speaker 1: there's no recovery trajectory, and your work is all about

262
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 1: the recovery trajectory, or like the ways that our lives

263
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,000
Speaker 1: can become better afterward, which is so awesome. So can

264
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 1: you talk to us a little bit about what some

265
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,199
Speaker 1: of the positive things that can happen to us after

266
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 1: trauma are.

267
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,679
Speaker 5: Well, Well, first, let me say that you've kind of

268
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 5: outlined what has now traditionally been the understanding of trauma

269
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,480
Speaker 5: that either people are resilient to trauma or they're damaged

270
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 5: trauma and they're to live lives of desperation as a result.

271
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,640
Speaker 5: So instead, we're talking about changes that can happen that

272
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,440
Speaker 5: allow people to see that in the aftermath of all

273
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 5: of this, they have found some benefit or value, not

274
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 5: that the trauma itself has been a good thing, but

275
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,800
Speaker 5: they've figured out something about living life as a result

276
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,200
Speaker 5: of having to go through this. We've found that when

277
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 5: we have done our research on this, that people tend

278
00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 5: to report five different versions of this posttermata growth. And

279
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,080
Speaker 5: people can sometimes tell us that there's one version of

280
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 5: it that's most important to them. Other's some combination of them.

281
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 5: But one version is they recognize that they may appreciate

282
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,000
Speaker 5: life more, that they have more gratitude for things that

283
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 5: they might have taken for granted before. Another area is

284
00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,040
Speaker 5: they recognize their own personal strength. They have been able

285
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,400
Speaker 5: to get through something terrible in a way, which indicates

286
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,920
Speaker 5: that they have some strength or that they've been strengthened

287
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,160
Speaker 5: because they've learned how to go through what they've encountered

288
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 5: in life. A third is something that we've called new possibilities,

289
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,920
Speaker 5: and that's when people veer off on a new path

290
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 5: in life because the events that they've encountered have sort

291
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,959
Speaker 5: of forced that on them in some way where they

292
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,000
Speaker 5: had to find something else as a priority, something else

293
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,320
Speaker 5: to do, or something that they used to do no

294
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 5: longer seems possible or important, so they strike out into

295
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 5: new areas of living life, some opportunities that they think

296
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,880
Speaker 5: they might not have explored or not been able to

297
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,520
Speaker 5: see in prior times.

298
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 2: That feels like something that's common with people who are

299
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,439
Speaker 2: faced with death.

300
00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 3: Like someone else dyeing megan, or you mean, their own death.

301
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,000
Speaker 2: Like themselves, like if somebody who's given a terminal illness diagnosis.

302
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of times a little b

303
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 2: I wrote a book, and I parachuted, and I did

304
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:28,640
Speaker 2: this and that, and I don't know.

305
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:29,680
Speaker 4: It's just kind of.

306
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:30,720
Speaker 3: Like a new lease on life.

307
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

308
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, a lot of people talk about post traumatic

309
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 5: growth as their second life. You know, they've recognized that

310
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,680
Speaker 5: they've got another chance to maybe do things better and

311
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,760
Speaker 5: right and more more importantly or something like that. Another

312
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 5: is changed in relationships with other people. This is where

313
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 5: people become maybe more empathic or more compassionate, or are

314
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 5: able to be more open emotionally with other people. Often

315
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 5: this happens because you are in a position where you

316
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 5: know you really need to tell your story or you

317
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 5: need to talk to other people about your suffering, and

318
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 5: that brings you closer to people, or maybe you're lucky

319
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,760
Speaker 5: enough to have people who are responsive to you or

320
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,440
Speaker 5: care enough to support you, and you learn about the

321
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,880
Speaker 5: support that maybe you didn't realize you had. So that's

322
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,720
Speaker 5: another area. And then the final one spiritual and existential change.

323
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 5: And this is where people look at some of the

324
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 5: deeper concerns with living life well, how to live with

325
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,600
Speaker 5: meaning and purpose, trying to address the question of what

326
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,840
Speaker 5: am I supposed to do with my life here? What's

327
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 5: the point of it? And that can yield some exploration

328
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 5: of spiritual ideas, some change in religious beliefs, but we're

329
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,560
Speaker 5: generally an exploration of the kind of enduring questions that

330
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,760
Speaker 5: people have had for centuries, for the millennia about what

331
00:15:58,800 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 5: it means to be human and how to live.

332
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's like you get shattered into a million pieces,

333
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 1: but then once you put them back together, you kind

334
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 1: of realize all these other ways.

335
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 3: That you can reconstruct yourself.

336
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 1: You don't have to be the same person or live

337
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: the same life that you had before.

338
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 4: It's like a reframe too. That's what's so cool about it.

339
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: It's like a narrative reframe of expecting something good to happen.

340
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,680
Speaker 5: It's almost like people learn some lessons in a very

341
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 5: visceral way in their gut, in their heart, in their

342
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 5: bones that they might have understood intellectually before. You know,

343
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 5: we all know sort of intellectually being close to other

344
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 5: people and having close relationships is a good thing or something.

345
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 5: I mean, that's sort of common knowledge, but living it

346
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 5: out in a way where it's central to you and

347
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 5: crucial to your own survival in the aftermath of suffering

348
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,840
Speaker 5: or during suffering. It's a different kind of learning. It's

349
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 5: a different kind of understanding of that people have told

350
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 5: me on various occasions. You know, I knew this before,

351
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,240
Speaker 5: but now I know in a different way, a way

352
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 5: where I can't go back to how I used to be.

353
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 5: I just can't think that old way anymore. It's just

354
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 5: I've just gone through this transformation where the old ways

355
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,680
Speaker 5: of understanding things and doing things just don't make sense.

356
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:17,240
Speaker 4: To me anymore.

357
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 1: I always knew that your thoughts are fleeting and your

358
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 1: thoughts don't matter, But it wasn't until like this whole

359
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,080
Speaker 1: like journey that we've talked about on the podcast a lot.

360
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 1: But this whole journey I had where I like had

361
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 1: a panic attack and then realized I have OCD, And

362
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 1: it was this really horrible time in my life that

363
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 1: I like had to actually do the work and understand

364
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,119
Speaker 1: my thoughts and like learn the same things that I

365
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 1: technically knew before, but I know it in such a

366
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,240
Speaker 1: different way now and like such a deeper level.

367
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,480
Speaker 3: Like I've tried explaining it.

368
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've tried explaining it to my friends and they're like,

369
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,360
Speaker 1: you always knew that, and I'm like, yeah, but it's

370
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 1: different now I'm.

371
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 2: Telling you you're like I was just saying it.

372
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 5: It's under a different type of understanding, more than just

373
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:55,639
Speaker 5: giving lip service to things.

374
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:56,080
Speaker 3: Right.

375
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you in your research, is there,

376
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 1: like any p particular kind of trauma that this applies to,

377
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 1: or is it like kind of everything across the board.

378
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,199
Speaker 5: Well, this brings up the question of what a trauma is.

379
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 5: There are a lot of people who have tried to

380
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,480
Speaker 5: define traumas as certain kinds of events. I've learned that

381
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,919
Speaker 5: that's not a very good path to go down, because

382
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 5: for any individual person, certain kind of events may be

383
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,639
Speaker 5: more or less traumatic. So I think that you know,

384
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,679
Speaker 5: at the very beginning you talked about potentially traumatic events.

385
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,880
Speaker 5: I think you said something about that that's a better

386
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 5: way of thinking about this, that events can potentially be traumatic,

387
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 5: and it depends on how they have an impact on

388
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,639
Speaker 5: an individual person. The impact that defines things as traumatic

389
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 5: has to do with the degree to which there's a

390
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 5: shattering of the core belief system, the system that all

391
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 5: of us use to understand ourselves in our lives and

392
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 5: our world. In Any event that brings those understandings into

393
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 5: question creates a lot of anxiety. Like you now, it's like,

394
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 5: I don't know what's going on. I don't know what

395
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 5: to believe. Nothing makes sense to me. So events that

396
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 5: create that kind of disruption and the core beliefs, those

397
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,480
Speaker 5: are traumatic events. That's how we can define trauma. And

398
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,439
Speaker 5: the core beliefs have to do with things like what

399
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,200
Speaker 5: kind of person am I, what kind of life path

400
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,679
Speaker 5: am I on, or what kind of people that have

401
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,120
Speaker 5: around me? How safe I am, how vulnerable I am.

402
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 2: I was listening to a podcast you did where you

403
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,240
Speaker 2: were talking about how somebody had I believe it was

404
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 2: terminal cancer, and he was like, yeah, it sucks I'm dying,

405
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 2: but I always knew I was going to die. What

406
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 2: really sucks right now is that my wife left me. Like,

407
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,719
Speaker 2: that's what's traumatic to me. So it is such an

408
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 2: individual process of Yeah, you might think that somebody's dying

409
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 2: is what's affecting them, but it's something else entirely that's traumatizing.

410
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 5: That's right. You really have to know the individual.

411
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 1: I was just talking to Megan about this, like last week.

412
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: You know, I've like witnessed in a like physical attacks

413
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,359
Speaker 1: on loved ones when I was a child. I've experienced

414
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 1: sexual assault myself. I've been through things that like technically

415
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 1: should be traumatic, But the most traumatizing thing in my

416
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 1: whole life was like my panic attack.

417
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 3: Like that by.

418
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: Far shook the core of like how I viewed myself

419
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,560
Speaker 1: and my mind and my control over my personhood more

420
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 1: than any of those other events that like should technically

421
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 1: be traumatic.

422
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 4: Do you think, like, what's the positive growth you think

423
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 4: you've had from it?

424
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I feel like

425
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 3: that's an end question, but I'll answer it now.

426
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a much stronger sense of my own

427
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: autonomy now, which is funny because what it was was

428
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: feeling out of control. But now I've learned how to

429
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 1: feel in control when I feel out of control.

430
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 3: Uh huh.

431
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: I do feel like I am able to more deeply

432
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 1: connect with people and relate to people on a certain

433
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 1: level when it comes to mental health step in particular,

434
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: because that's not something that I really ever struggled with before.

435
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 1: So I feel like I can connect with people in

436
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 1: this new way.

437
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 4: It's cool.

438
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 3: My thinking is so much.

439
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 1: Healthier now because before I like understood what was happening.

440
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 1: I was in this pattern and I just didn't know

441
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 1: what was happening where I would ruminate and ruminate and ruminate.

442
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 1: And now I like can actually recognize that I'm doing that,

443
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 1: and I've constructed like a new way of life thanks

444
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: to you know, some excellent therapists.

445
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:12,880
Speaker 4: Totally.

446
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 5: You know, I want to make a comment on what

447
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 5: you just said when you said feeling more in control

448
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 5: when you're out of control and you're chuckling about that,

449
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 5: because it sounds so weird, right, yeah, how could that be?

450
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 5: But it's interesting to me when I hear you say that,

451
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 5: because that's a paradox, and so much of the work

452
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 5: I've been doing in this area of post traumatic growth requires

453
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,719
Speaker 5: us to think paradoxically about things. You know. The basic

454
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,360
Speaker 5: paradox is that out of suffering and trauma comes something

455
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 5: worthwhile or beneficial, and that's kind of a paradox, right,

456
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 5: And then you're talking about another paradox, which is that

457
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 5: people often come to understand that events that happen to them,

458
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 5: even though they're they're terrible in a way, can yield

459
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 5: some kind of understanding or knowledge or enlightenment that's worthwhile

460
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 5: and valuable. So that's kind of paradoxical. And the basic

461
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 5: paradox you're talking about is, you know, something that people

462
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 5: often learn is I'm not in control of so much

463
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 5: in life. But if I somehow figure that out, I

464
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 5: paradoxically end up feeling more in control of my own

465
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 5: life when I accept the idea that I'm.

466
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: Not right, because I can control how I respond to

467
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 1: all the other.

468
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 3: Things that I cannot control. Yeah, So let's say one.

469
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: Of our listeners, for example, has experienced some kind of trauma.

470
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 1: Maybe they have been in an abusive relationship or been

471
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: in a cultic relationship, and they're trying to figure it out.

472
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 2: Now.

473
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 4: Maybe one of them has been in a call.

474
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're not feeling like they've gotten to a

475
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: point of post traumatic growth yet and they're still maybe

476
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: stuck in the negative parts of the trauma. Are there

477
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: ways that we can like proactively seek out that growth

478
00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: or is it.

479
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: Something that kind of happens organ Well.

480
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 5: Let me take that apart a little bit. So one

481
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 5: thing is postmatic growth is not a destination. It's not

482
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 5: like you arrive there someday you wake up and say, man,

483
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 5: you know I've made it here. I am postmac growth,

484
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 5: got it?

485
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 4: Post traumatic growth island, that's right, right.

486
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 5: It's a way of experiencing and living life. And so

487
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 5: for most people it sort of develops over time. It's

488
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 5: a gradual process. That's an important part of understanding this

489
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 5: that you kind of chip away at these things and

490
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 5: you learn and you approach this over time. Now, for

491
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 5: some people, there are these moments where you sort of say, aha,

492
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 5: it's like, oh, now I understand this there and I

493
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 5: did before. Maybe someone listening to your podcast is going

494
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 5: to come away from our discussion and say, ah, now

495
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 5: I understand something that they didn't understand. Maybe that'll be helpful. Okay.

496
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 5: So one way that's important in order to encourage people

497
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 5: on the journey of postma growth is for them to

498
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 5: know that it's possible for us to label it, to

499
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 5: name it, to describe it. So people have a sense

500
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 5: of what's possible for them and may be able to

501
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 5: articulate what's happening to them. Because I've had many people

502
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 5: write to me and they say, you know, until I

503
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 5: read what you've written or heard what you said, I

504
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 5: was really unclear what was going on with me. I

505
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 5: knew it was something, but I didn't know what it

506
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 5: was about, but it was so helpful to hear you

507
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 5: describe it, because that's my experience. That's very fulfilling for

508
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,719
Speaker 5: me and very satisfying when I hear people say that

509
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 5: they've gotten something out of hearing about this. In terms

510
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 5: of how do you move in that direction, there's a

511
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 5: couple of things. One, it's important to try to find

512
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 5: people that we call expert companions, people who will listen,

513
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 5: people who will appreciate your own capabilities, people who will

514
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 5: be there with you for the journey because it takes

515
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 5: a while. People who recognize your possibilities and your strengths,

516
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 5: all that good stuff.

517
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: You know.

518
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 5: There's sometimes are people in our lives that are just

519
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 5: there like that and we know who they are. Other times,

520
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 5: you know, we find them along the way and they're surprising.

521
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 5: You know who they turn out to be. So it's

522
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 5: important to have an expert companion so that you're not

523
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 5: going through this by yourself. And you know, myself and

524
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 5: my colleague Brett Moore wrote a workbook, a Posteumatic Growth Workbook,

525
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 5: which is a guide you know, that people can follow

526
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 5: that we hope help people along this journey, and it

527
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 5: has a lot of information and exercises they can do

528
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 5: to try to move in that direction. So there are

529
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 5: certain prompts there that can help people think through this

530
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 5: process and feel through this process.

531
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 4: Can you give us what a prompt would be.

532
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 5: Well, So, for example, one of the things we do

533
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 5: in there is we have people consider the sort of

534
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 5: person in their lives that might be an expert companion

535
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 5: and what characteristics a person like that might have. Or

536
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 5: we have a place in there where we have them

537
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 5: evaluate their core belief system and what they are thinking

538
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 5: about or what they don't understand about certain aspects of living.

539
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 5: Or we have places where people can start to create

540
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 5: their own narrative of their lives. That's a very important

541
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 5: part of this process. To see the story of your life,

542
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 5: which integrates the things that have been traumatic that you've

543
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 5: suffered through, what you've learned from them, how they've changed

544
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 5: you in certain ways, start to understand in some coherent

545
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 5: way with what your story is. So we have prompts

546
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 5: about that. So there's different ways that people can follow

547
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 5: these guidelines so they can move more in that direction

548
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 5: of growth.

549
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: You use the word integrate, and I want to talk

550
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: about that because I feel like that comes up a

551
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: lot when discussing healing from trauma, even when I was

552
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,239
Speaker 1: doing EMDR with one of my therapists, it was all

553
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: about integrating the trauma.

554
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: So does what does that mean?

555
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: Does that mean just like figuring out how it makes

556
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: sense in your life story, so it's not this disruptive

557
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: thing that's over here and doesn't fit in, Like what

558
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: can you explain that?

559
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you've got the idea there. Living through

560
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 5: trauma is really unpleasant, anxiety, arousing, sad, scary, all those things,

561
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 5: partly partly because it's hard to understand and figure out

562
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 5: when something is so mysterious and it feels like you

563
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 5: were saying before, it's something that you're not in control of.

564
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 5: You know, it's a lot worse. So the integration is

565
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 5: a way of organizing all these events and their meaning

566
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 5: for yourself, so you can see themes and patterns and

567
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 5: a direction of all of this, so it doesn't seem

568
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 5: like it just a chaotic mess. Instead, it seems like

569
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 5: something that has some organization to it, some coherence or

570
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 5: a theme to it. Therapist helps you with that, that's right.

571
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 5: You know, in my therapy with people, very often what

572
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 5: I'm doing is helping organizing the pieces of this puzzle,

573
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 5: you know, just like with a jigsaw puzzle, you dumb

574
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 5: them all, you know, the pieces out of the box,

575
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 5: and you start to organize them some way, maybe the

576
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 5: different colors or shapes or where the edges are or

577
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 5: something like that, and through that organization you can start

578
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 5: putting the pieces together and lo and behold. After a while,

579
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 5: it's showing you a picture. And this process is kind

580
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 5: of like that. You have to take out the pieces,

581
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 5: which is hard for people because you get that means

582
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 5: talking about things that are distressing. That's you know, dumping

583
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 5: out the puzzle pieces, and then you have to see

584
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 5: how they fit together. And there's some kind of organization

585
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 5: to this. It's not just all random. And then when

586
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 5: you see the organization to it and the theme and

587
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 5: the pattern, life doesn't feel so crazy anymore. And that's helpful.

588
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: Is this what you're saying? This is the kind of

589
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: story I want to live? So, oh, I'm going to

590
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: make sense of my life in this way?

591
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 5: Well? Yeah, see, Now if you understand this process of

592
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 5: post traumatic growth is possible, you might say that very

593
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 5: thing to yourself. You might say, you know, what, I

594
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 5: want to figure out how to live a life that

595
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 5: is purposeful or meaningful or has this kind of story

596
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 5: to it, something I'm being proud of or whatever. I'm

597
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 5: not sure how or what's going to look like, but

598
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 5: I got the general concept that that's where I want

599
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 5: to go with this somehow. So that gets you started

600
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 5: when you see that that is possible.

601
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: It resonates with me so much when you are talking

602
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: about is making it not feel so crazy because I

603
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: think for me and for some of my friends who've

604
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: had traumatic experiences too, the hardest part is like.

605
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: What is happening? What is happening? Why is this happening?

606
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: And it feels chaotic, and it feels like you have

607
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: no again no control over the world and the universe

608
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: and yourself. And so just like breaking it apart has

609
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: been something that's been life changing for me. I'm like, Okay,

610
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: this is what I'm experiencing, this is why it's happening.

611
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: Organizing it is. Yeah, that just makes a lot of

612
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: sense to me because that was what was helpful for me.

613
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: Getting so mad at yourself too, you know, if you're

614
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: not feeling whatever, but then if you reframe, it is, oh,

615
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm working out almost like I'm getting stronger.

616
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: Then that's a whole different period of time.

617
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: But you have to like being able to name what's

618
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: happening to you and like have a way of understanding

619
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: what happened to me. That was like the most important thing,

620
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: and I think for my mom that was the most

621
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: important thing too, because especially people who've been in cults,

622
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: they're like, I don't understand what's just happened to me,

623
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: you know, it feels chaotic.

624
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, making sense of things is really important. I work

625
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 5: for an organization called Bouldercrest Foundation in Bluemont, Virginia, and

626
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 5: we serve their military veterans and first responders like firefighters,

627
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 5: police EMTs. People have been through trauma mostly because of

628
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 5: their work and have trauma histories. So we have our

629
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 5: program is based on the postermat growth concept. One of

630
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 5: the things in our program that we emphasize is that

631
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 5: we give them message it's not what's wrong with you,

632
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 5: it's what happened to you. Because so many of these

633
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 5: men and women come to us with diagnoses of PTSD

634
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 5: or something. They've gotten lots of messages that they're broken

635
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 5: and they're damaged there and they start to feel useless,

636
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 5: and we emphasize that you know, it's about the events

637
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 5: that you've gone through in your life and what it's

638
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 5: done to your way of understanding yourself, understanding the world

639
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 5: around you that you live in, and robbing you of

640
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 5: a future that feels like it's going to be purposeful

641
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 5: and meaningful. We especially find this with veterans coming out

642
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 5: of their service, don't know any longer what they're supposed

643
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 5: to do with themselves, and have perhaps seen and experienced

644
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 5: some terrible things. We have to help them see that

645
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 5: there's a further purpose to life, way that they can

646
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 5: serve and be useful so their lives continue in a

647
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: direction where there's an ongoing story of possibility for them.

648
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 5: Another thing that we emphasize with post traumatic growth, it's

649
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 5: important for people to have a mission. It's important for

650
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 5: people to have something to do that benefits other people,

651
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 5: not just makes them feel better or it takes care

652
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 5: of some symptoms they have like nightmares or something. It

653
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 5: goes beyond that. You've got to have a reason for

654
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 5: living that benefits people out there in the world, whether

655
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 5: it's your family or your neighborhood, or your city, or

656
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 5: your organization or your country or somebody beyond you. That's

657
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 5: what's important, because otherwise the suffering you've gone through may

658
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 5: feel like it's just in vain.

659
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: We've talked in other episodes about how it's not always

660
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: necessarily helpful to dwell on an event for.

661
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: Too long, to rehash it repeatedly.

662
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: But this is an important distinction because there are people

663
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: who just end up getting stuck in the like talking

664
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: about the event, but then there are all these other

665
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: people who aren't talking about it at all. But I

666
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: want to talk about how disclosing our story and like

667
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: getting it out of our bodies is actually like a

668
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: crucial step in healing. And it's because of that organization, right,

669
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: It's because like you have to name it in order

670
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: to tame it or whatever.

671
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 5: Well, you know, when you talk about disclosing the story again,

672
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 5: I'm talking about the broader story, not just one particular event.

673
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: Okay.

674
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 5: For example, there's a kind of therapy called exposure therapy.

675
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 5: Prolonged exposure is one where people retell some traumatic event

676
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 5: many many times in order to not be so sensitive

677
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 5: to it anymore and reduce the anxiety of it. That

678
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 5: misses the point, though, the point we talked about with

679
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 5: integration of these things. It's how you're going to live

680
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 5: your life as a whole, and who are you, you know,

681
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 5: in terms of the whole of your life, how you

682
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 5: grew up, what you learn and growing up, what you

683
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 5: learned through, the events you've been through, who you can

684
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 5: be in the future, you know, just the bigger picture

685
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 5: of all of this, not just you went through some

686
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 5: terrible event in itself, but that's a part of the

687
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 5: overall narrative that you have to come to terms with.

688
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: So it's like I had a happy childhood and then

689
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: my life was disrupted by this thing which made me

690
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: behave in this other way, but then I was able

691
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: to achieve you know, Like it's basically like just.

692
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: Fitting it all in. It's so interesting.

693
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: I wouldn't think that story would be so important for

694
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: our mental health, but it seems like it really is.

695
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 5: Well it is because if you think about it, all

696
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 5: of our memories, and all of our conversations and all

697
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 5: of our thoughts are stories. I mean, how often during

698
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 5: the day do you tell people a story? You recount

699
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 5: some event that happened to you, and the things you

700
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 5: remember are stories. It's always easier to remember anything that's

701
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 5: a story than just a bunch of facts when you

702
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 5: want when you weave it all together in terms of story.

703
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 5: And you know, if you say to somebody, let me

704
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 5: tell you a story, immediately you have their attention. They

705
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 5: want to hear the story, right And Megan, for example,

706
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 5: you remember the story I told about that guy with

707
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 5: terminal cancer. I told that story and that's you remember that, right?

708
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll never forget it.

709
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 5: There you go. So human beings are just we're immersed

710
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 5: in stories. That's just the natural way that we think

711
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 5: and we remember.

712
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: So, speaking of stories, can you share any stories? I

713
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: mean obviously no specifics, but can you share an example

714
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: of someone that you've treated, or researched or anything who's

715
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: experienced a good amount of post traumatic growth?

716
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 5: Well, my colleague at Bouldercrest, Brett Moore, who's a former

717
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 5: Armory psychologist. He and I wrote a book called Transformed

718
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 5: by Trauma Stories of Post Traumatic Growth. What we did

719
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 5: there is we interviewed some people who were either military

720
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 5: service members or veterans, or family members like mothers or

721
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 5: spouses about their experiences with trauma and post traumatic growth

722
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 5: so we could hear it in their words. Because I

723
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 5: think that's really powerful to hear it from the point

724
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 5: of view if people have been through these things. So

725
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 5: that's why we published that book a couple of years ago,

726
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 5: because we think that these stories are really important. So,

727
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 5: for example, there's one fellow who I know pretty well

728
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 5: and who was in the army for a long time,

729
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 5: and he was grievously wounded in battle, lost in eye

730
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 5: and use of one of his limbs was impaired, and

731
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 5: he was really very wounded. And he had always been

732
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 5: a very athletic and strong guy, and he ended up

733
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 5: in a wheelchair and partially blind and all this stuff,

734
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 5: and he was getting very, very depressed. But he had

735
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 5: a bunch of guys who used to climb do rock climbing,

736
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 5: with climbing mountains and stuff, who finally came out to

737
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 5: him one day, loaded him up in a van with

738
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 5: his wheelchair and every thing said we're going climbing, and

739
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 5: they took him out there, and it turned out that

740
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 5: that for him was really important because they said to him,

741
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 5: we're going to figure out some way to help you

742
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 5: climb again. So he ended up starting a nonprofit that

743
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 5: helps people with disabilities engage in outdoor activities. This became

744
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 5: part of his mission and it was based on what

745
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 5: his friends did for him. He had expert companions, people

746
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 5: who knew him, believed in him and weren't going to

747
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 5: let him fail. And he needed that because as powerful

748
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 5: and strong a guy as he was, you know, he

749
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 5: was sinking and he needed someone else to help them up,

750
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 5: and they did and that started to point him toward

751
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 5: another kind of mission for him. So it's that kind

752
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 5: of thing that's so inspiring when you work in this

753
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 5: area with people, and when you work in the area

754
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 5: post traumatic growth rather than trauma. Okay, because if you

755
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 5: just stick with trauma and don't include the growth part,

756
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 5: that's when people start talking about being traumatized by the work.

757
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 5: You know, how can you work with all these people

758
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 5: have gone through terrible suffering, isn't it horrible? And everything? Well,

759
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 5: it's never been that way for me because I'm just

760
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 5: inspired by how amazing people are, and because we oriented

761
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 5: people towards growth rather than just feeling like they got

762
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 5: to somehow live through their symptoms and carry a diagnosis

763
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 5: for the rest of their lives and all the rest

764
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 5: of them.

765
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: I have a question, if you have trauma in your

766
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 2: childhood that probably affected how you develop as a person.

767
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 4: How is that different?

768
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 5: Well, that's often a question I get asked because people

769
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 5: start to think, well, if right from the beginning, you

770
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 5: develop a belief system that is just based on suffering

771
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 5: and being abused or something like that, you know, how

772
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 5: is it possible for you to know anything else or

773
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 5: learn anything different? And that's where expert companionship comes in.

774
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 5: That's where you start to see that somebody else that

775
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 5: believes in possibilities for you and can notice those things

776
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 5: can be so helpful.

777
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 2: They're almost like regulating your brain, but like creative part

778
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: of your brain to start working.

779
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's almost it's almost like you have to have

780
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 5: a connection with somebody else's brain, somebody else's mind, when

781
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 5: yours isn't really capable so much of seeing those kinds

782
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 5: of possibilities in yourself, you have to have someone else

783
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 5: first lead you into those things that you don't even

784
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 5: recognize in yourself.

785
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: Which is such a tricky territory for this podcast in particular,

786
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: because you know, we talk a lot about how people

787
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: who've experienced trauma or experienced difficulties can often be that

788
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: that's when they're the most vulnerable to you know, someone

789
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: who's a predator and might see that moment.

790
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so.

791
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 1: Important to find expert companions, but also be really discerning

792
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: about how much control they are.

793
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 3: You know, they are trying to take.

794
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 5: Absolutely and and so of course we know there always

795
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 5: people out there who will try to take advantage and

796
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 5: are predatory. So you know, finding an expert companion who

797
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 5: really you know, like your podcast says, you can really

798
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 5: trust requires some discernment, you know. For example, on our

799
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 5: work at Bouldercrest, all of our work is done with peers.

800
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 5: We don't use mental health professionals. All of our programs

801
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 5: are run by peers, so former veterans and people like that,

802
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 5: and we train them up to do this work, and

803
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 5: we make sure that we are including people on our

804
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 5: staff that have been through the program themselves, really understand it,

805
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 5: really get it and live it because we know how

806
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 5: important it is that that trust that you talk about,

807
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 5: So that is a crucial thing.

808
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: There have been moments in my life where all I

809
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: wanted was an expert companion and I just didn't feel

810
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: like I had one other than my dearest mother, who's

811
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: of course the best, the most expert companion.

812
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: It's a tea shirt expert companion.

813
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: I'm like, my mom can't be my only expert companion.

814
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: I'm an adult, but I feel for anyone who, like

815
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: maybe doesn't have that person in their life, and I

816
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: just want to quickly shout out and say there are

817
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: support groups. You know, a therapist can be that person

818
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: for you. There are ways to kind of cultivate those

819
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: relationships if you don't currently have them. But also just

820
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: reaching out to people. Sometimes we're afraid to reach out

821
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: and we might find that once we do, we get

822
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: more support than we would have imagined.

823
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 5: Well, I think, you know, the idea of the support

824
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 5: group is so important, and that's why we work with

825
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 5: peers at Bouldercrest, because that's where you feel like you

826
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 5: can be most understood with somebody else has been through

827
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 5: the kinds of things you've been through. I worked for many,

828
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 5: many years with a nonprofit sort of Bereaved Parents. I

829
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 5: ran these support groups weekly for many years with brief Parents,

830
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 5: and you know, that really introduced me to trauma in

831
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 5: a way that was really heart wrenching. And the thing

832
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 5: about it that's so wonderful, though, is these people are

833
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 5: so hurt by the loss of their children, being able

834
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 5: to find that they could help someone else in spite

835
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 5: of all their loss and all their hurt. That propels

836
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 5: people forward when they say, oh, there's still something about

837
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 5: me and my story that can be useful to someone else,

838
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 5: So all is not lost.

839
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 1: This is the tearing up for the second time in

840
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: this interview. Doctor our post round of growth and PTSD

841
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: mute exclusive or can you have both?

842
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: Like how does it work?

843
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 5: Well, they're not music. They derive from the same experience.

844
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 5: You know, the traumatic experiences produce PTSD the symptoms, but

845
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 5: those experiences also can propel people towards growth eventually. Actually,

846
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 5: when you focus people on growth and possibility, it's often

847
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 5: much more effective than focusing on relief of symptoms. In fact,

848
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 5: I was just reading an article yesterday that had just

849
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 5: come out which sort of demonstrates this. But this is

850
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 5: what we're based our Bouldercrust work is based on. We

851
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 5: don't try to relieve people of symptoms. We focus more

852
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 5: on post traumatic growth in the program, and what we

853
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 5: end up seeing is the symptoms decline. Okay, not because

854
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 5: we're trying to treat the symptoms, but because growth gives

855
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 5: people a sense of strength and capability that kind of

856
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 5: starts to overwhelm the symptoms, and even the symptoms that

857
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 5: remain become things that people can manage better because that's

858
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 5: not the only thing that they've got anymore. They've got

859
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 5: something more important in their lives that they're attending to.

860
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 5: So the symptoms are like, well, if I have to

861
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 5: have some of this inconvenient crap, you know, it's the

862
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 5: price I pay for something that's important that I'm doing

863
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 5: with my life now, so be it right.

864
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: I feel like that is the theme that has really

865
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: come up on all these episodes we've been doing, is

866
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: when you focus on what's wrong, and when you focus

867
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: on the symptoms and just like trying to fix the

868
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: things that are wrong. It seems like pretty consistently, no

869
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: matter who we talk to, the healing happens more quickly

870
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: or more strongly. I guess when you like acknowledge that

871
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: the symptoms are there and maybe there are different ways

872
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: you treat them, but really like look outward and try

873
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: to figure out, like, how can I live my best

874
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: life even though I'm having this over here?

875
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 5: Yes, that's that's right, and not only living my best life,

876
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 5: but living life that's good for other people. Yeah, that

877
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 5: other people benefit from my life. That's that's the key.

878
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 5: That's you have to have a mission.

879
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 4: It feels like happy after trauma.

880
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: It can't be because we can't hang just stuff on

881
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: our ego anymore, right, it has to be there you find.

882
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: Out, Megan, do you feel comfortable talking about the group

883
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: that you're in for the religion or no?

884
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:14,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a listener.

885
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: Started a Facebook group about the religion I was raised in.

886
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: People who've gotten out of it and the community that

887
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 2: has grown around it is just absolutely unbelievable.

888
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: Does it seem like people are being motivated by the

889
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: possibility of helping other people and that's like helping them

890
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: get through their experience?

891
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 4: Yes. Absolutely.

892
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: Having the meaning of hey, this is what happened to

893
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: me even one month ago for the person who's leaving

894
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: this month, means that you're like a guide to people.

895
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 2: There's this huge meaning to everything that you're going through.

896
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: There's a mission, there's a purpose, there's something to live for.

897
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: So absolutely, such a good example.

898
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, awesome.

899
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what the personality traits are? I

900
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: think there are five of them, the big five that

901
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 1: are correlated with post traumatic growth.

902
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 5: I tell you neuroticism tends not to be correlated with

903
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 5: post traumatic growth neuroticism. Okay, oops, And so among the others,

904
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 5: probably the two that are most important are openness to

905
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 5: experience and extraversion. Extraversion because there's a facet of extraversion

906
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 5: that has to do with positive emotions. So people that

907
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 5: are able to access positive emotions do better, not surprisingly,

908
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 5: and also those are people who might be better at

909
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 5: reaching out to other people and finding expert companions. Openness

910
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 5: to experience, well, if you're open to novelty, trauma is novelty.

911
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 5: That's one thing we can say about It is something new, different, strange,

912
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 5: and if you can, if you can approach that rather

913
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 5: than suppress it, then you have a possibility of learning

914
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 5: something from your own experience. So those two things. But

915
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 5: the relationships between those personality characteristics and post traumatic growth

916
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 5: isn't huge. So I always has a tap to give

917
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 5: people the impression that if you're not high on those

918
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 5: aspects of personality, that somehow this is inaccessible to you.

919
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 5: And that's not the case.

920
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear you say that I don't

921
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: have access to that extraversion.

922
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 4: Not in here.

923
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: No, I have openness to experience, extraversion, neuroticism, I have written.

924
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 4: Down here to ask him, what is catastrophe theory?

925
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, catastrophe theory is a theory which posits that

926
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,479
Speaker 5: there are certain breaking points that you cannot reconstruct what's

927
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 5: been broken and have it be in the same form.

928
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 5: You know, if you have a piece of material you

929
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 5: and you start to put pressures on it, eventually it'll break.

930
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 5: And different materials break, different plastic, steel, whatever. They break

931
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 5: it in different times with different amount of pressure, and

932
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 5: once it's broken, you can't just put it back together

933
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 5: and it'd be exactly the same as it was. So

934
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 5: same thing with post traumatic growth. I mean, we break

935
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 5: in a way because of these events, and we put

936
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 5: ourselves back together, but we're different. We can't go back

937
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 5: to the way we used to be, which is a

938
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 5: good thing. In the new version of us, we're maybe

939
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 5: better and more than we were the old version. So

940
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 5: for example, on the cover of the book that I

941
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 5: mentioned Transformed by Trauma Stories of post Traumatic Growth, we

942
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 5: have a picture of a piece of pottery that's been

943
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 5: broken and put back together with gold.

944
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 3: Right, it's that one method that I always forget the

945
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 3: name of.

946
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 5: It's a Japanese art called konsugi, and they deliberately break

947
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 5: these pieces of pottery and put them back together with

948
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 5: precious metals and showing that it's even more beautiful than

949
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 5: it was when it was whole. You know, that's the

950
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 5: sort of catastrophe of the pottery, right, Yeah, But in

951
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 5: putting it back together, it's different. It's not the same,

952
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 5: but it's a beautiful version.

953
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: It is more beautiful, it's more interesting, it's more you know,

954
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: everybody knows that there's not much fun to have and

955
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: talking to this is maybe rood of me to say

956
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: about the popular guy at school until something happens in

957
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 2: his life to make him a little bit more human.

958
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 4: Is that I'm boring as shit?

959
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 5: Is that?

960
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 4: Can I say that? I don't know?

961
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 5: People seem perfect or kind of hard to relate to,

962
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 5: aren't they?

963
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of people are intimidated by me,

964
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: I think. But did we miss anything that you think

965
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: would be good to add to the conversation.

966
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 5: Well, I think I just want to say that if

967
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 5: you've had struggles in your life and you have learned

968
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 5: some things about living well in the aftermath of your struggles,

969
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 5: it provides you with the basis for being an expert

970
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 5: companion someone could be helpful to others, and so look

971
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 5: for that as you're as part of your mission.

972
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: I love that so much. I feel like this has

973
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: been so enriching. This is such a great conversation. I'm yeah,

974
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: really grateful that you came on and talk to us.

975
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 5: Well, thank you very much, and I enjoyed it.

976
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: So is there a particular book or a program that

977
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: you want to direct people toward.

978
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 5: Well, look at Bouldercrest dot org for the website of

979
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 5: my organization that I work with that includes a lot

980
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 5: of information. In the books I mentioned, the Postermatic Growth

981
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 5: Workbook I Trauma. Those are useful I think for the

982
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 5: general public in terms of learning more about this and

983
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 5: understanding how to get through wonderful.

984
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for all the work that you do.

985
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: You're contributing great things to the world.

986
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 5: Well, I appreciate that. That's part of my mission. I

987
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 5: guess we could say you're.

988
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 4: The world's expert companion.

989
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 5: That's a little more than I can tell you.

990
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: That was mister Rogers. Meghan calmed down.

991
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 4: Sorry, well, thank you so much.

992
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: All right, thank you so much.

993
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 4: I have a good day, guys.

994
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 5: All right, bye bye bye.

995
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Megan, it's that time of the podcast, or ask

996
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: you a question, but this one, I'm going to ask

997
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: you the same question you asked me, which is what

998
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth have you experienced if any?

999
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, my entire life's purpose is based off of the

1000
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: healing that I get from my trauma once I started

1001
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: to move through it a little bit. I've always been

1002
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 2: a writer, but I always felt really blocked. And the

1003
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: healthier I get mentally, the more all of this stuff

1004
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: is coming through, and it's really deep stuff, it's layered stuff, because.

1005
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 3: It's from what do you What do you mean? What

1006
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 3: does stuff mean?

1007
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 2: Like being raised in a cult, telling that you that

1008
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: you're going to hell being a human being is inherently wrong.

1009
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 2: It's absolutely awful to be here. Is such a scary

1010
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 2: place to live as a child, you know, obviously not

1011
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: being around anybody.

1012
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 4: I mean, the first twelve years of my life, I

1013
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 4: was totally.

1014
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: Alone, just reading reader's digests and Sweet Alley Highs, whatever

1015
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 2: I could get my hands on.

1016
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 4: Love Sweet Valley High.

1017
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it was a really lonely, scary childhood.

1018
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: And I've always thought, Okay, that's really sad, but life

1019
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: is beautiful now, so it's okay. But now I see like, oh,

1020
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: I'm healing from it finally, because I'm talking on this

1021
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: podcast and I'm really looking at it, and my logical

1022
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 2: brain is getting stronger and starting to take over a

1023
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 2: little bit from that and her child stuff.

1024
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 4: That just believes not even in the religion. Just in hell,

1025
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 4: that's all it believes in.

1026
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 3: Oh wow, just in hell.

1027
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 2: That I'm definitely going to The more I start to

1028
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 2: heal from that, the more this story that I loved

1029
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: becomes a piece of art that I know will help

1030
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: other people. And sure it would have been nice to

1031
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 2: be eleven and watchful House with some other kids. But

1032
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: if I could create something that resonates with a lot

1033
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 2: of people or even just a few people, that to

1034
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: me is meaningful.

1035
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty cool.

1036
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: So you feel like the healthier you get, the more

1037
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: you're sort of understanding what kind of happened to you

1038
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: and like yet integrating that.

1039
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: There was the point when we first started this podcast

1040
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 2: where I didn't know what you were talking about. You see,

1041
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: I think the color not understand that's so interesting, the trauma.

1042
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 3: I was just like, what is.

1043
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 4: She talking about?

1044
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: Was it?

1045
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: Just like it wasn't a big deal. Why are we

1046
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 1: talking about religion like this.

1047
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 4: No.

1048
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 2: No, it was more like, you know, if you're a

1049
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: fish in water, you don't even know you're in water.

1050
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 2: It was like I was so deep in this fhere

1051
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 2: and really weird way of relating to the subject. I

1052
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: just couldn't think about it in an interesting, creative, open,

1053
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: or like helpful way. I just felt like I showed

1054
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: up every week like what is happening? And now I'm like,

1055
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 2: oh my god, like nerding out, researching everyone having so

1056
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 2: much fun, like loving it because I finally understood it

1057
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 2: just opened a different portal for me.

1058
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 4: I don't know how to explain it.

1059
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the more open it gets, the more my

1060
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 2: traits that are positive have room to grow and shine.

1061
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 2: And they wouldn't have gotten as big as they've gotten

1062
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:05,959
Speaker 2: unless I went through what I went through.

1063
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, I'm so glad to

1064
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: be a part of the journey with you. Although I'm

1065
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 1: sorry you didn't know what was going on for so long,

1066
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:16,919
Speaker 1: like I forced you into this. I'm like, you're doing

1067
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: a cult podcast.

1068
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 4: No no, no, no, no, you didn't like I was so happy.

1069
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 2: It was more so like I just wanted to contribute

1070
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 2: interesting thoughts. But all I could see it as is

1071
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: like this is scary. You're like, ooh, what if we

1072
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: went and talked to these people who hit these people

1073
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: and like but and you're like no, it's like and

1074
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 2: I just didn't understand. I don't know how to explain

1075
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 2: it any other way. But as the trauma healed, a

1076
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: part of my intellect opened.

1077
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: Wow, that is that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1078
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense. It's hard to talk about

1079
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: things that you aren't really facing yourself.

1080
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 4: Right, maybe that's a better way of saying it.

1081
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: But how it relates to positive growth is that I

1082
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 2: think that I would have been kind always like I

1083
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 2: was always like a little, nice little girl, but I

1084
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 2: don't think I would be as willing to be empathetic

1085
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 2: with people going through really hard ship if I hadn't,

1086
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: so then that just makes my pain so much more

1087
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 2: worth it. It makes my life so much more meaningful

1088
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: to me.

1089
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 3: So that's awesome, Megan.

1090
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 2: That's what this meant to me, this little podcast, and

1091
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 2: I love it. Is not that this podcast is a

1092
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 2: little This specific episode.

1093
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:25,439
Speaker 4: Which isn't little either.

1094
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 1: It's a big episode. It's a big episode. Well, thank

1095
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: you for sharing.

1096
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: That's that's awesome.

1097
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1098
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 2: That's all we got, folks. Please have a delightful week.

1099
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you here next week. Remember

1100
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: to follow your gut, watch out for other flags and

1101
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: that ever ever drusting me Wow.