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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm great, Paul. How's it going?

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Speaker 2: I am doing good? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Well? Before we, you know, start talking about the case,

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Speaker 1: I have a question for you. This case that we're

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Speaker 1: about to discuss involves teenagers and secrets keeping secrets. We

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Speaker 1: think were you the kind of teenager who kept secrets

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Speaker 1: from your parents? Or were you what I predict is

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Speaker 1: a boy scout Dudley do right kind of kid? Or

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Speaker 1: were you sneaky?

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Speaker 2: How do I answer this? Knowing that my dad is

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Speaker 2: probably listening. I most certainly, you know, did things my

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Speaker 2: parents were unaware of. You know, I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: most teenagers do that. That's the time when you are

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Speaker 2: starting to become independent. You're trying to transition into adulthood.

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Speaker 2: And I was very independent, and so I would just

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Speaker 2: kind of go and do things that I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do and not let my parents know.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I feel like I sort of did

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Speaker 1: that too. But I went to a high school. It

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Speaker 1: was pretty geeky, and I say that in the sweetest way.

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Speaker 1: You know. It was a kind of a magnet school,

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Speaker 1: and it was science oriented and all my friends who

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Speaker 1: are listening were really fun nerds. Nobody really did anything.

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Speaker 1: We didn't drink, you know, really, I think until senior year,

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Speaker 1: and that was at graduation. I just didn't get into

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Speaker 1: the traditional kind of trouble that I think some teenagers

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Speaker 1: get into now. So I'm grateful for that, and I'm

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Speaker 1: grateful for not having social media. Yeah, when I was

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Speaker 1: fourteen were my kids' ages, so and I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: feel the same way.

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Speaker 2: I am not a fan of social media. I have,

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Speaker 2: you know, a couple of social media accounts, but that's

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Speaker 2: basically for work purposes. And I'm not one that likes

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Speaker 2: to draw attention to myself, but I know that the

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Speaker 2: people out there want to know a little bit about

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Speaker 2: me in my personal life. So every now and then

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Speaker 2: I give up dates on kra my fish tank, my

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Speaker 2: mountain biking, my jeeping. You know, so I at least

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Speaker 2: will engage. But I am not on social media hardly

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Speaker 2: at all. It's like once every few months, and I

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Speaker 2: never ever look at the comments I post and I

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Speaker 2: move on. And if anybody tries to get a hold

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Speaker 2: of me on social media, it's not going to happen.

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Speaker 2: You can DM me all you want. I don't even

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Speaker 2: look at the messages.

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Speaker 1: A PSA from Paul Holes about social media, well this

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Speaker 1: went down the road. I didn't think we were going

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Speaker 1: to go down. I am really glad I didn't have

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Speaker 1: social media when you know, I was my kid's age,

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Speaker 1: because I know that there are benefits from it, but

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Speaker 1: I think for me, with keeping secrets from my parents,

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Speaker 1: I had a really hard time doing it. But I

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Speaker 1: know that my dad would have been on I mean

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Speaker 1: he would have like figured out I pease and gone

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Speaker 1: through every kind of account. I would have been busted

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Speaker 1: for stuff that is probably silly now but I really

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Speaker 1: my father was one of those fathers who would say,

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Speaker 1: you know, you make the decisions that you make, I

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Speaker 1: will tell you I will not bail you out of jail.

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Speaker 1: And that was enough to scare the crap out of

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Speaker 1: me pretty much like kept me in this straight and arrow.

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Speaker 1: So that was enough. I was scared straight there for sure.

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Speaker 1: So you know, as I said before, the story that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about up next is about secrets. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I was just telling a class of mind the phrase

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Speaker 1: you use, and I need you to remind me of

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Speaker 1: what it is. So sometimes I will say, Paul, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell you something that the victims did and

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Speaker 1: I don't want it to be interpreted as victim shaming.

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Speaker 1: And you say, it's not victim shaming, it's something else.

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Speaker 1: What is it? Risk assessment? What is the phrase?

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Speaker 2: You know, it really depends on the context. You know.

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Speaker 2: I always say victimology is huge, and so understanding why

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Speaker 2: this individual became a victim, I need to look at

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Speaker 2: that victim's life, what is their normal life, their known life,

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Speaker 2: and evaluate is their lifestyle something that brings them into

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Speaker 2: a world in which they may more likely become a

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Speaker 2: victim of a crime, or was this a a unique

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Speaker 2: circumstance in their life that they normally aren't operating in

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Speaker 2: that caused them to become a victim of a crime.

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Speaker 2: Was this a circumstance that they chose made a purposeful decision,

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Speaker 2: or was this something as a matter of circumstance they

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Speaker 2: made the wrong turn down the dark alley. And what

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Speaker 2: this does is it informs me about, Okay, the lifestyle

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Speaker 2: the victim leads. There's a level of risk that us

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Speaker 2: in law enforcement understand comes with certain territories, whether that's lifestyle,

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Speaker 2: whether that's geographic you know, the dark alley, high crime area,

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Speaker 2: or is there something that the victim unknowingly did that

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Speaker 2: caused that victim to come to the attention of the offender.

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Speaker 2: So it is a risk assessment, but has nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with putting blame on the victim. It's just evaluating

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Speaker 2: the victimology.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what we're going to be doing. So I

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Speaker 1: just want to make that clear before I set the

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Speaker 1: scene here, is that this is not blaming the victims

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Speaker 1: in this case. It is the risk assessment and what

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Speaker 1: we think. But this is about teenagers and some of

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Speaker 1: the decisions they make. So let's go ahead and set

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Speaker 1: the scene. You know, I start out with the trigger

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Speaker 1: warning here. This is about the sexual assault of two children.

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Speaker 1: This is a famous case with our friends in Australia.

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Speaker 1: We do have a lot of listeners in Australia. I

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Speaker 1: get notes from people all the time. So Hi Australia,

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Speaker 1: We're so happy that you join us. This is the

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Speaker 1: case in your country called the Wanda Beach murders, and

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Speaker 1: I bet a lot of those listeners have heard of it,

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Speaker 1: so this will be a good story. Have you heard

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Speaker 1: of the Wanda Beach murders, Paul.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think I have.

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Speaker 1: This is a big story and I'm going to warn

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Speaker 1: you there's a lot of backstory. I've been spending a

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Speaker 1: lot of time with my documents sort of cutting things

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Speaker 1: out and narrowing things down based on what you need.

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Speaker 1: But there's a little bit of a hefty backstory about

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Speaker 1: how we end up with our victims, where they end up,

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Speaker 1: and I do have thankfully I have photos because this

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Speaker 1: is nineteen sixty so this is one of our newer cases.

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Speaker 1: I know, I saw I see you perk up a

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Speaker 1: little bit. He's like, oh, thank god, it's not fifteen twelve.

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Speaker 2: There might be something I can work with from a

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Speaker 2: visual standpoint.

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Speaker 1: So nineteen sixty five Sydney, Australia, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: coastal teenagers love to go to the shore. Of course

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Speaker 1: during the summer months. We are looking though, at wintertime,

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Speaker 1: so if we're flipping it here, this would be a

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Speaker 1: really nice warm day. It's in early January and we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of people on the coast very excited

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Speaker 1: about enjoying this weather and it's beautiful. And the center

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Speaker 1: of the story are two fifteen year old girls. So

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Speaker 1: one is Marianne Schmidt and the other one is Christine Sherrick.

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Speaker 1: They both live in a Sydney suburb. I think it's

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Speaker 1: good to show you the victims, you know, for you

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Speaker 1: to be able to put kind of the faces to

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Speaker 1: the names here as we move forward, because it really

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Speaker 1: is they're at the center of the story. So let

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Speaker 1: me show you. There we go. Christine's on the left

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Speaker 1: and Marianne's on the right. Just looks you know, they

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Speaker 1: look like two typical teenagers. They look a lot alike,

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Speaker 1: which was surprising. They're not sisters. No.

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Speaker 2: I In fact, when I saw these photos, I thought

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Speaker 2: they minimally are sisters, if not twins. That's how much

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Speaker 2: they look alike. You know. The clothing is similar, but

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Speaker 2: in terms of their heights are about the same. The

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Speaker 2: color of their hair, the hairstyles about the same. Even

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Speaker 2: their facial features, you know, are similar enough to we're

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Speaker 2: at a glance, I would have thought they were related.

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Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to note with you on this

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Speaker 1: is they both look petite. I don't know how much

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Speaker 1: that comes into play. I mean, we talk about how

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Speaker 1: much you think someone could defend themselves if they become

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Speaker 1: the victims of a violent crime. Weight doesn't have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with it. But I think if you write

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Speaker 1: if you have someone who looks like they're muscular man

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Speaker 1: or woman, then that's something that's part of the victimology

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's the physical characteristic, you know, and that's going

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Speaker 2: to be part of it. But also it's assessing again victimology.

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Speaker 2: Do they have certain skill sets? You know? Have they

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Speaker 2: trained in martial arts? You know? Are they into weightlifting

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Speaker 2: something that is going to cause them to have maybe

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Speaker 2: greater physical abilities than what they look like, you know.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's a part of what I do because

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Speaker 2: I when I look at these these crimes in which

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Speaker 2: the offender is in physical contact with the victim, whether

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Speaker 2: we have a male offender female victim or a male

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Speaker 2: offender male victim, I'm assessing the physical characteristics. And you know,

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Speaker 2: typically the the average male offender is going to be

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Speaker 2: bigger and stronger than the average female victim, and so therefore,

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Speaker 2: in that scenario, that offender is going to be more

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Speaker 2: dominant in that physical confrontation. But there are females out

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Speaker 2: there that are very capable of defending themselves even against

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Speaker 2: very robust males, and so I need to know that.

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Speaker 2: So I could start assessing, Okay, how much did this

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Speaker 2: offender have to struggle with the victim? How much am

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Speaker 2: I expecting this offender to have been injured? Does that

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Speaker 2: leave evidence at the scene. Does it tell me if

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at the victim and it's a prologued struggle,

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Speaker 2: does that tell me that maybe I'm dealing with a

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Speaker 2: male offender that isn't as physically capable as the average male,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. So that's just part of my assessment.

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Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be any sort of notes about

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Speaker 1: any acumen that these girls have in sports, or we

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Speaker 1: don't have an indicator that they are particularly active or

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Speaker 1: they do martial arts or anything like that. It just

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Speaker 1: seems like two typical fifteen year old girls, both petite,

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Speaker 1: best friends. They live next to each other, and they

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Speaker 1: are like sisters. Marian's family went from West Germany in

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Speaker 1: the fifties to Australia and her father died from Hudgin's

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Speaker 1: lymphoma in nineteen sixty four, so the year before this,

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Speaker 1: and then he leaves behind his wife, Elizabeth, as a

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Speaker 1: single parent, and Marianne is one of seven kids. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I know, ranging from age five to age sixteen, and

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Speaker 1: I have a list of you know, everybody's ages because

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Speaker 1: they actually become pretty important in a little bit as

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Speaker 1: far as witnesses go. So in January, Elizabeth, the mom,

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Speaker 1: checks into a hospital to have a surgery that's going

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Speaker 1: to last a couple of days. It doesn't sound life threatening.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a detail on what it is, but

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Speaker 1: the important part is Elizabeth leaves her son, whose name

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Speaker 1: is Helmet, who's sixteen, and Marianne, who's fifteen, in charge

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Speaker 1: of the younger kids. So there's a young boy named Hans,

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Speaker 1: There's a ten year old named Peter, a little girl

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Speaker 1: who's nine, a little boy who's seven, another boy who's five.

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Speaker 1: So you've got these two teenagers who are in charge

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Speaker 1: of one, two, three for five kids. Five little kids,

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Speaker 1: the oldest being probably ten or eleven. So that's a

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Speaker 1: lot of verse reponsibility. Because Elizabeth's gone for several days,

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Speaker 1: and Marianne goes to visit her mom at the hospital

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Speaker 1: on January ninth of nineteen sixty five, and she says

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Speaker 1: that she and Christine, the next door neighbor who she's

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Speaker 1: best friends with, want to take all these little kiddos

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Speaker 1: to a beach called Cronulla Beach. And this is just

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Speaker 1: the south of Sydney. You could take a train there.

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Speaker 1: Christine and Marianne have been there before, and actually they

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Speaker 1: had been at that beach with their families for New

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Speaker 1: Year's Eve, which was, you know, a little over a

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Speaker 1: week earlier. So she says, you know, I want to

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Speaker 1: go with Christine. Christine had also lost her father when

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Speaker 1: she was young, so that was another thing that they

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Speaker 1: bonded over and they're just very very close and they

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Speaker 1: share everything. So Elizabeth knows that the two girls are

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Speaker 1: very familiar with Cronulla Beach. You know, they can get

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Speaker 1: there by train. Everybody knows it. You know, it shows

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Speaker 1: she's as I think this is probably fine. But the

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Speaker 1: girls decide that they are going to the beach on

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Speaker 1: a Sunday, January tenth, the next day, and they pack

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Speaker 1: up the kids, but the weather is awful and they

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Speaker 1: decide to call the trip off and they decide that

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Speaker 1: they are going to go the next day, which is

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Speaker 1: a Monday. So I think that's going to be key

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Speaker 1: because we do talk about the schedules that victims keep,

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Speaker 1: and if there's somebody watching them or stalking them, or

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Speaker 1: you know, anybody who knows what their potential schedule is.

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Speaker 1: Can't that tell you the difference between an offender who

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Speaker 1: is known to them, who knows what kind of schedule

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Speaker 1: they have, versus a stalker versus a crime of opportunity.

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Speaker 2: That becomes absolutely critical when you have a victim that

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Speaker 2: is a crime is committed against that victim during their

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Speaker 2: normal routine. It's kind of wide open. Is it somebody

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Speaker 2: who knows that routine either because they know the victim

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Speaker 2: or has watched the victim, or was it a victim

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Speaker 2: of opportunity? When you have a scenario like this where

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Speaker 2: they had planned to go to the beach one day

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Speaker 2: and then at the last minute decide no, we're going

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Speaker 2: to go the next day. That starts to narrow the

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Speaker 2: pool of people that would have knowledge about that change

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Speaker 2: in their schedule, which then tends to shift that when

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Speaker 2: they do become a victim of a crime for something

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Speaker 2: that was at the last second change, tends to suggest

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Speaker 2: that they're more likely a victim of opportunity, not necessarily,

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Speaker 2: but investigative information. I always kind of use the analogy

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Speaker 2: of a seesaw. So you have a seesaw that is

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Speaker 2: perfectly balanced, but as information comes in, one set of

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Speaker 2: circumstances may become more heavily weighted, but it doesn't eliminate

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Speaker 2: the other end of that seesaw. There's still weight on

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Speaker 2: that other end, and more information can come in which

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Speaker 2: can cause the seesaw to shift the other way. But

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Speaker 2: right now, with the information that you told me, which

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Speaker 2: is very broad, but I'm starting to shift, going, Okay,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like I know they're going to become victim.

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Speaker 2: Sounds more like possibly opportunity because they had somewhat of

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Speaker 2: a last minute, last day shift in their schedule. Change

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Speaker 2: in their schedule.

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Speaker 1: Except remember I told you that teenagers do keep secrets.

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Speaker 1: And you know, this story really unfolds in such an

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Speaker 1: interesting way because you're really trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: the kids are doing. All of these kids are doing,

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Speaker 1: So let me fill in a few blanks. Christine goes

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Speaker 1: to her grandmother. She lives with her grandparents, and she

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Speaker 1: tells the grandmother, listen, you know, we want to walk

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Speaker 1: across what she calls the sandhills, which are the sand

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Speaker 1: dunes of a place called Wanda Beach, which is why

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Speaker 1: this is called the Wanda Beach Murders. So Wanda Beach

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Speaker 1: is on the same bay as Cronulla Beach, but just north.

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Speaker 1: So in order to get to Wanda Beach, you have

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Speaker 1: to go from Sydney on the train to Cronulla train station.

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Speaker 1: Then they have to go through a bunch of little

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Speaker 1: neighboring beaches to get to wand the grandmother says, this

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Speaker 1: is an awful idea. She said, you're going to regret

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Speaker 1: this because they're going to be dragging along these little kids,

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Speaker 1: and you and I both know little kids, with all

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Speaker 1: of their excitement and enthusiasm, are gonna poot out pretty quickly,

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Speaker 1: and then you're going to have two fifteen year old

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Speaker 1: girls stuck with three or four kids under the age

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Speaker 1: of eleven or so. So the grandmother advises, don't do it,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately Christine ignores her advice, so you know, they

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Speaker 1: decide they're going to do it anyway. She goes over

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Speaker 1: to Marianne's house and says, who's coming with us? And

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Speaker 1: there's a boy named Helmet, who's the sixteen year old

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Speaker 1: named after the dad. And there's a boy named Hans,

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Speaker 1: who it seems like is just a little younger. We

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Speaker 1: don't have an exact age for Hans, and fortunately they

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Speaker 1: decide to stay home. So what started as what I

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Speaker 1: thought was going to be a trip of two fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old girls with an older sixteen year old brother

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Speaker 1: and you know, a gaggle of kids kids now turns

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Speaker 1: into four little kids with two teenage girls who want

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Speaker 1: to go to the beach, and that leaves them vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: If you are someone who is an offender and you

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Speaker 1: are seeing two teenage girls with a teenage boy. I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming for some offenders that would deter them just because

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Speaker 1: that's an extra person, you know, potentially a strong teenage

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Speaker 1: boy that you have to deal with versus two teenage

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Speaker 1: girls and a bunch of little kids or am I

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Speaker 1: completely wrong and that wouldn't throw off any offender.

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Speaker 2: No, I think most only the presence of the male

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Speaker 2: is always going to be of concern to an offender. Now,

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Speaker 2: certain offenders may have the confidence and their ability, whether

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Speaker 2: physical ability or the control mechanisms such as having a gun,

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Speaker 2: that they would be able to control the three teenagers,

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Speaker 2: the male and two females. I think the defender is

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Speaker 2: going to be much more concerned about the little kids

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Speaker 2: because little kids cause commotion. They scream, and when little

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Speaker 2: kids scream, you know, people who may be out in public,

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Speaker 2: they instantly look, why is this little kid screaming? So

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Speaker 2: that's going to be part of the assessment of you know,

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Speaker 2: if an offender is watching this group of kids from

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Speaker 2: Afar and is deciding to victimize Marianne and Christine, you

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Speaker 2: know they have the little kids that are a variable

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Speaker 2: that they have to consider.

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Speaker 1: And I think you're going to be right about that. So,

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Speaker 1: as I said, Christine's grandmother said, this is not a

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Speaker 1: great idea. You're going to have four whining kids to

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Speaker 1: drag along with you. Christine and Maryan talk, they decide

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Speaker 1: they're really highly motivated to go to this beach, so

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Speaker 1: they pack up. The four younger kids are Peter, Trixy,

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Speaker 1: Wolfgang and Norbert, and they set off on that Monday

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Speaker 1: around eight thirty in the morning. It's quite a journey

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Speaker 1: to get to where they're trying to go on a beach.

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Speaker 1: They have to get on a train, there's a transfer,

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Speaker 1: they have to go on a different train. Then you

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Speaker 1: know they're lugging along. Besides four little kids, which I

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Speaker 1: don't envy at all. Christine has a beach bag and

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Speaker 1: it's filled with a thermos that's got soda in it.

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Speaker 1: It's a towel, a small purse, one Australian pound, which

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Speaker 1: now it's the Australian dollar, but in sixty five it

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Speaker 1: would have been an Australian pound, so just one pound, sunglasses,

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Speaker 1: a radio transistor radio that was a Christmas gift. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't have any food in her bag, but Marianne packs

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Speaker 1: sandwiches for the group, like cucumber sandwiches with some fruit.

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Speaker 1: Marianne is wearing her bathing suit, but Christine is on

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Speaker 1: her period, so she's chosen to leave her bathing suit behind.

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like she's going to get in

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Speaker 1: the water. They learned that the beach is closed, the

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Speaker 1: one we were so excited about, Crownella Beach is closed

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Speaker 1: because the winds are really dangerous for swimming at this point.

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Speaker 1: But they decide not to head home. They're determined. They

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Speaker 1: take the children to the southern end of the beach

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Speaker 1: and set them up on a large rock slab right

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Speaker 1: next to the water. Everybody, it's sounds like eats sandwiches

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Speaker 1: and fruit. We don't know how much Christine and Marianne ate,

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Speaker 1: but you know, the kiddos eat the sandwiches and the fruit,

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Speaker 1: and then to pass the time since that beach is closed,

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Speaker 1: Marianne and Christine suggest that they all hide the belongings

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Speaker 1: and walk up the shoreline toward Wanda Beach, which is

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Speaker 1: what I think they really wanted to do. Anyway, it's isolated.

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Speaker 1: I have a photo to show you. I will tell

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Speaker 1: you it feels isolated enough to me that I would

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Speaker 1: not feel comfortable having my kiddos go out there on

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Speaker 1: their own. And my girls are fourteen, you know, just

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Speaker 1: one year younger than these girls. I know that you

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Speaker 1: don't have a huge perspective here, but that's a lot

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Speaker 1: of sand, and it seems pretty isolated to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I've gone onto Google Maps and

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at Wanda Beach, you know, a variety of photos,

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Speaker 2: and it's up along the beach. You know, it's basically

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Speaker 2: a very wide open beach up against the waterway, but

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Speaker 2: then the the sandy area starts to slope up as

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Speaker 2: you go away from the water, up until where now

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Speaker 2: you're getting into the parking area and you know, basically

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Speaker 2: the town that's right next there. So somebody who's down

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Speaker 2: on the beach likely isn't visible to somebody who's potentially

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Speaker 2: up just driving by or walking by. But most certainly

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Speaker 2: if the beach is closed and there's very few people,

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Speaker 2: you know, it is isolated. And I personally would not

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Speaker 2: be allowing my fifteen year old girls and then these

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Speaker 2: little kids to be alone in this environment. Number one,

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Speaker 2: just because of the dangers of being close to the

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Speaker 2: water with the little kids, but also the possibility you

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Speaker 2: could have somebody who has bad intent having free access

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Speaker 2: and there isn't anybody around to kind of scare somebody

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Speaker 2: off from doing that.

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Speaker 1: And what I noticed here is all the vegetation, which

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Speaker 1: I didn't expect sounds like a great place to hide

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Speaker 1: or great place to hide a body. I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: that that's what happened here. I'm just saying there's an

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Speaker 1: even bigger added thing, you know, a layer or here

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Speaker 1: of there are places that you know, you can really

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Speaker 1: crouch down and spring up on someone.

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Speaker 2: What I'm looking at is a photo called the sand

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Speaker 2: Hills at Wanda, and it is these undulating sand hills

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Speaker 2: that have it's somewhat low lying bushes, but at certain

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Speaker 2: areas you can see these bushes look like they have

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Speaker 2: some height to them and they're dense. So somebody who

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Speaker 2: is trying to hide something or hide themselves possibly has

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Speaker 2: good spots in order to maybe watch the kids out

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Speaker 2: there on the beach.

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Speaker 1: So they get to Wanda around one I will say,

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Speaker 1: this is a long day, but you know, they leave

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Speaker 1: Sydney and then it looks like they arrive at Cronella

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Speaker 1: at about eleven am, and so this is this is

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Speaker 1: a long time to drag around four little kids, but

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Speaker 1: you know they're they're doing it. So they leave Cronella

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Speaker 1: with the kids and they arrive in Wanda around one o'clock.

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Speaker 1: And this is about a mile and a half a

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Speaker 1: little under a mile and a half. Gosh, that's a

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Speaker 1: long time with little kids. The kids are exhausted and

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Speaker 1: they're complaining about the wind and the wind Paul is

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Speaker 1: so gusty that it is whipping against the little kid's legs,

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Speaker 1: sensitive skin, and it's painful, and the girls want to

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Speaker 1: press on until they get to Wanda, which at this point,

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Speaker 1: in reading through all of this research in the story,

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Speaker 1: I just thought, man, there's something going on here. Why

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Speaker 1: are they so motivated to get to this part of

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Speaker 1: the beach.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well this sounds like a miserable experience. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've been on a beach with with wind whipping like

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Speaker 2: that and that's sad. It's it's like being sand blasted,

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Speaker 2: you know. So that's that's what these little kids are

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00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 2: complaining about, is a sand being whipped up and then

434
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: hitting their bare skin, possibly getting into the eyes. And

435
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 2: it does bag the question why stay? Because this does

436
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 2: not sound like a fun experience. It seems like something

437
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: that I know I probably would say, I'm out. I'm

438
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: tapping out of this kids, We're going home.

439
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: So the next couple of points are going to be

440
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: what I had once called victim shaming and this is

441
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: really your right risk assessment here, because they make some

442
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: pretty bad decisions. Marianne is, I'm sure tired of hearing

443
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: the complaining, so she tells the little kiddos go sit

444
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: behind this dune where they are going to be protected

445
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: from the wind. They sit, they turn on the transistor

446
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 1: radio that she had and the music's playing. But they

447
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: left all their stuff a mile and a half back

448
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: ish at Cronulla Beach. So this is what happens, and

449
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: this is where things start to turn. Marianne looks at

450
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: her little siblings and says, Christine and I are going

451
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: to go back there. Stay here, play the radio. You know,

452
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: we're going to cover you up with towels. Everything's fine,

453
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 1: but we want to go back and go get our stuff.

454
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: Here's the problem. They walk in the wrong direction, and Peter,

455
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: who is ten, knows this. This is the wrong direction,

456
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: and he calls out and says, where are you going?

457
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: And they either can't hear him because of the wind

458
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: or they ignore him. But they are going together, two

459
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: fifteen year old girls without these little kids, in the

460
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: wrong direction of where they're saying they're going to go.

461
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: And this is where problems begin.

462
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there are two bright fifteen year old girls,

463
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: and I'm assuming that you know, they are fairly competent

464
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: at navigation, you know, so it sounds like this is

465
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 2: a purposeful act. They are purposely walking in the wrong direction,

466
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: and they are using this ruse with the little kids.

467
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: So we need to go get our stuff, and thinking

468
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: that the kids won't be paying attention that they're actually

469
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: going in the opposite direction. Now, why are they going

470
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: in the opposite direction?

471
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: Right, That's the big question, and that's what we're going

472
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: to try to figure out here. Okay, So they leave

473
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: the kids, they go in the wrong direction, and not

474
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: long after when this starts to unfold, of course, witnesses

475
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: come forward. And there's a man named Dennis Dawst Teime,

476
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: and he says he was at the beach. He didn't

477
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: see the little kids, but he was with his son,

478
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: and they both see the girls walking over the sand hills,

479
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: the sand dunes. He says, one of them. He didn't

480
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: know which, because of course, you know, they look almost

481
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: exactly alike. Keeps looking over her shoulder like they're being followed.

482
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: But Dennis looks around. He's a dad and concerned. He

483
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: looks around and he doesn't see anybody, but he kind

484
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: of makes a mental note that it's weird that one

485
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: of the girls seems like she's concerned that she's being followed.

486
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: Or because you're saying they're now walking up into the

487
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 2: sand dune area, maybe she's wanting to make sure nobody

488
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: is seeing them go there.

489
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: It could be. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, And

490
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: as of now, we don't know what's happening with them.

491
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: What I do know is that it's five o'clock and

492
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: the little kids, the Schmidt kids, have been alone for

493
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: four hours. They've been sitting against the sand dune, covered up,

494
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: listening to this radio and they don't show up. And

495
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 1: so these kids, who I think are amazing. So the

496
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: eldest is Peter, the ten year old. There's a ten

497
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: year old, a nine year old girl, a seven year

498
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: old boy, and a five year old boy. They as

499
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: a group walk south the way that the girls were

500
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: supposed to go. They end up getting their stuff from

501
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: Crownulla Beach and I can't even believe it. They get

502
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: on a train at six o'clock by themselves, last train

503
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: of the night. They arrive at their house around eight o'clock,

504
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: all by themselves. And they tell Christine's grandparents, who are

505
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: next door to Marianne's house in their house, that the

506
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: teenagers left them alone and they made that big trip

507
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: all on their own, a two hour train trip. I mean,

508
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: they walked a mile and a half at the beach

509
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: five o'clock. It was probably still light outside, but still

510
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: they made that big trip all alone. The eldest is ten.

511
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: That's amazing and frightening.

512
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, you know, But I think we're also

513
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: talking nineteen sixty five. You know, this is where kids

514
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: at age often times had a lot more independence. I remember,

515
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a child of the seventies. I was

516
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 2: born in nineteen sixty eight, and so I was these kids'

517
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 2: age in the mid seventies, and I would go do

518
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: things far and abroad in the neighborhoods surrounding my house,

519
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: and my parents had no idea where I was. That's

520
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: just was that era. But to think that this group

521
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 2: of four kids were able to have the wherewithal to

522
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: get on the trade and get home, you know, that

523
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: is amazing. And I know, as a parent in this

524
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: day and age, I would be absolutely frightened if I

525
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 2: was like, where are my kids? What? They're on a

526
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: train by themselves. You know, bad things are going to happen.

527
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: That's my instant instinct.

528
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: Right, And I think Christine's grandmother was petrified. She finds

529
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: out about it, and she says, this is not like

530
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: my grandchild and her best friend. She immediately reports them missing. Yeah,

531
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: and the police get involved very quickly. This would have

532
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: been incredibly unusual, even for a big city like Sydney,

533
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: you know, for two teenage girls to go missing in

534
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: these circumstances, to leave, you know, one of them, Mary

535
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: Anne's four little siblings. She's always been very responsible. I mean,

536
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: neither of these girls have sent up red flags for

537
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: their families, otherwise they would be much more concerned about

538
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: letting them take these little kids off. They must have

539
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: been responsible teenagers.

540
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So now the question is where's mary Anne and Christine?

541
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: Okay, the next morning, so this is twelve hours later,

542
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: There's a teenager named Peter Smith. He's taking his little

543
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: nephews out for a walk near Wanda Beach. This is

544
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: not far at all from the shoreline, but it does

545
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: feel very isolated and private. He's in the dunes and

546
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: Peter sees what he thinks is a mannequin. It's partially

547
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: buried in the sand, so he leaves his nephews behind.

548
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: He walks over and pushes away some of the sand

549
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: and he realizes that it's the corpse of a young girl.

550
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: He panics and takes his nephews and runs to a

551
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: lifeguard outpost and they call the Cronulla Police station and

552
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: the detectives you know, show up. But now at this

553
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: point they are putting two and two together. I have

554
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: a photo in a second, but let me tell you

555
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: kind of the details because it might help put the

556
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: crime scene photo together for you. The police think that

557
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: the girls at one point had been completely buried, but

558
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: remember it was very windy. And when I show you

559
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: the photo, you'll see part of Marianne's head and then

560
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: Christine's feet. They had been buried one in front of

561
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: the other, with mary Anne's feet touching Christine's head. And

562
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, of course i'll talk to you about more details.

563
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: We've got two big things to talk about. The rigger

564
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: and the position of their limbs and how they were

565
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: found is interesting. And then of course i'll talk to

566
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: you about their injuries. You might need a zoom in

567
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: or I can if you want me to. You could

568
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: see the feet and you can see her head, I think,

569
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: but I can definitely see the feet.

570
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: Okay. So I'm looking at a photograph that appears to

571
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: be taken from a little bit of an elevated position

572
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: where the photographer standing looking down on the sand, and

573
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: there's a depression in the foreground in the photograph, and

574
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: then way too many individuals, all men's in suits, which

575
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: I'm presuming is are the investigators on this case, that

576
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: are on the other side of this depression. And then

577
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: I can see the sand dunes behind this location, and

578
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: I believe the ocean behind that. There's not a lot

579
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: of contrast, but you know, it's a black and white photo,

580
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: of course, And so focusing in on the depression, there

581
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: is a photographer with an old style camera, probably something

582
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: similar to what I would what I used and early

583
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: on in my career, a four x five speed graphics

584
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: camera on a tripod, and this is your this is

585
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: how they would document crime scene back in the day

586
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: with the old style film photography. And so this camera

587
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: appears to be focused down into this depression, and there

588
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: appears to be an area which I believe is what

589
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: you are describing as as two feet, and at least

590
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: at this zoom, I can't verify those are feet, but

591
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: at least from far away it appears that it could

592
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: be feet. And then if I go somewhat to the

593
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: right of where those feet are located, I see a

594
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: dark mass. I'm not sure if there's something by that mass,

595
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: which appears at least initially maybe hair, you know, like

596
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: one of the girl's heads. What I'm assessing right now,

597
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, of course, is okay if they were buried,

598
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: even in sand, it takes some time, you know, to

599
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: dig enough sand in order to be able to have

600
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: a deep enough depression to put to who in essence

601
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: are adult size women. They're fifteen year old girls. Now

602
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: was this depression existing and did they just shifts sand

603
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: over them or did they actually dig? In this photograph,

604
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: I can't see is there any you know, sometimes when

605
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: you dig, the sand on the surface is very dry,

606
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: but you get down deeper and now you have the

607
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: moist sand and it's clumpy. You know, I'm not seeing

608
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: anything to indicate that there's that aspect where now they're

609
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: having to dig into sort of a harder packed area.

610
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: But the offender not only interacted with the victims, killed

611
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: the victims, but had the time to try to hide

612
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: the bodies and actually did a reasonably good job. You know,

613
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: burying bodies, for the most part, is always in a

614
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 2: shallow grave, even in this type of sandy environment, because

615
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: it is hard and it takes time. But the offender

616
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: felt comfortable enough to take the time to dispose of

617
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: the bodies versus just killing the victims and running off.

618
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: So Marianne is the one whose head was uncovered, which

619
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: we presume is your dark hair that we saw. And

620
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: Christine's feet are uncovered. So Marianne is discovered to be

621
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: lying almost in a fetal position on her right side.

622
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: And according to there's an author named Alan Whittaker, and

623
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: according to his reporting, this is what he says. Her

624
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: left leg is bent at the knee at a right

625
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: angle to her body Christine, so we see Christine's feet

626
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: is found lying face down in the sand with her

627
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 1: right arm bent at the elbow, with her forearm close

628
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: to her face as if shielding it. What does that

629
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: mean as far as is this someone in the middle

630
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: of an action of defending herself and somehow with rigors

631
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: she's frozen in that action once she dies, or what

632
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: does all of that body positioning mean to you?

633
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: The body positioning may just be how the offender left

634
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: the victim's bodies, you know. And whether it's one offender

635
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: two offenders, we can't say at this point or more,

636
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: you know, But right now we know the offender took

637
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: the time to position these two victims' bodies and cover

638
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: them up. And you know, at the time that these

639
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: victims are are killed, there's no rigor, you know, so

640
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: their bodies are freely manipulative, if that's a word, you know,

641
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: But you know what I'm saying. And are they just

642
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: dumping these bodies in this depression they created and then

643
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: covering sand up and that's what we're seeing. Were the

644
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: victims killed at this location? You know? And so is

645
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 2: there you know, when you start talking about Christine's her

646
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: positioning of her arm, is she shielding herself from maybe

647
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: being stomped on? I know nothing about how they were killed,

648
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 2: you know, So you know, is there is this a

649
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: defensive posture and she dies in this in this position?

650
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: I don't know right now, you know, I can't draw

651
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: any conclusions. I need more information.

652
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's give you more information. So, folks, this

653
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: is graphic what we're about to talk about here. Let

654
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: me tell you Paul first how they died, and then

655
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: I will talk about the potential for sexual assault. And

656
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: then there is the physical stuff around that will be helpful.

657
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: Mari Anne, who we see her hair, has been stabbed

658
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: a total of fourteen times. One of these stab wounds

659
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: is directly to her heart. Another is to her throat,

660
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: which they describe as a very severe cut. Christine has

661
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: been bashed in the back of the head with a

662
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,959
Speaker 1: blunt item, her skull is fractured, and Christine has had

663
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: six stab wounds. So what do you think about that?

664
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: Just based on the superficial information without being able to

665
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 2: see anything, the difference is right off the bat is

666
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: Christine received blunt force trauma to the back of her

667
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: head plus stab wounds, and then Mary Anne has numerous

668
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 2: stab wounds, one to the heart and then her throat

669
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: is cut. That's not you know, at least you initially

670
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: described as a stab wound, but they're saying it's a cut,

671
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: an incision like this was a purposeful execution. Her throat

672
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: is cut. I need to see more you know. But

673
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 2: off the bat, my initial impression is is that, well,

674
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: why is Christine getting hid in the back of the head.

675
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 2: Is she being disabled first? So the offender can turn

676
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: the attention to mary Anne. And then after he kills

677
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: mary Anne and I'm assuming there's there's sexual interactions going on,

678
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: he then goes back and stabs Christine to make sure

679
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: she's dead. You know, there's that type of scenario just

680
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 2: based off of this superficial description of the injuries that

681
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: I am immediately starting to run through in my head.

682
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: So I'll tell you the order that they think that

683
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: this happened and the reason why. They notice a drag

684
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: mark which is thirty seven yards long leading into a

685
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: dip between the sandhills, and there's blood on the sand

686
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: and in the grass. There are pools of blood along

687
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: this pathway that end with Christine. They think mary Anne

688
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: was attacked first. She's the one with the fourteen stabs.

689
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 1: That Christine ran and was dragged back. They also think

690
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: that because of the concentrations of blood, he had to

691
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: take breaks. They don't think he's strong. They think that

692
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: that Christine was either fighting or she was heavier than

693
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: he thought, because there are pools of blood along this

694
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: pathway until you get to her final burial spot. She

695
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: was very light. So this is all of them thinking.

696
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: Maybe we're not thinking about a We don't know if

697
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: this could be another kid who's not very strong. What

698
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: do you think about that theory? Pools of blood kind

699
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,439
Speaker 1: of along the way of this pathway of a drag mark.

700
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: Right now, the thing I'm struggling with is the single

701
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: offender theory. You've got these two fifteen year old girls,

702
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: and if one of them is righting away prior to

703
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 2: the other one being disabled, how is the offender maintaining control?

704
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: You know, if the two victims are so divided, do

705
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: we have multiple offenders present? Now I'm not entirely convinced

706
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: that the original investigators have a good handle on this

707
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: crime scene.

708
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about motive. There are signs that the

709
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: attacker tried to rape both of these girls. So Christine

710
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: was wearing I don't know if you've ever heard of this,

711
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: but Christine was wearing a sanitary belt, which would have

712
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 1: been a little belt that women would wear, girls would

713
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: wear around their waist and it had kind of two

714
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: little clips in the front and back and you would

715
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 1: take a sanitary cloth and clip it at the front

716
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: and clip it in the back, and then of course

717
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: just remove it when you needed to change it. She

718
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: was the one I told you was on her period.

719
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: They say that her sanitary belt in the napkin had

720
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: been removed and her shorts that she was wearing were

721
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: shoved into her crotch area, and Marianne's shorts had been

722
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: cut down the side and rolled up around her breasts,

723
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: exposing the lower half of her body. There were scratch

724
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: marks on their inner thighs, and semen was found on

725
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: Marianne's body. Of course, we're going to come back this.

726
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: The hymens were still intact. We know that that does

727
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: not really say anything, so we know the motive. It

728
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: sounds like does this sound like one guy?

729
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 2: This is where I need to really look at the

730
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: victim's injuries, the crime scene, the location of the blood staining,

731
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: the drag marks, to see if I can sequence how

732
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: this went down and is it something that could be

733
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: accomplished by one offender or does it require multiple offenders?

734
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 2: Right now, what stands out to me, I'm assuming that

735
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: there's actual insertion of Christine's shorts up into her vagina,

736
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: you know. And this is something that I see in

737
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 2: sexually motivated crimes where you have objects, whether it be

738
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: the victim's own clothing or other foreign objects that are

739
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 2: inserted vaginally. In this case, Christine is menstruating. Was the

740
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: offender putting that into her in order to maybe stem

741
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 2: some of the menstrual blood flows? But this act in

742
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: and of itself suggests that I don't think I'm dealing

743
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: with a teenage boy. I don't think I'm dealing with

744
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: somebody who's going to be very inexperienced with a woman

745
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 2: who's been on her period. And I did have a

746
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 2: I'm going to kind of go into the Golden State

747
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: Killer series where part of the reason I thought I

748
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: was dealing with an older offender whereas some investigators, including

749
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: original investigators, were looking at teenage boys, was the offender

750
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: was removing women's tampons before he was raping them. This

751
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: is now suggesting that maybe I'm dealing with somebody who

752
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 2: has some sexual experience, possibly in a sexual relationship with

753
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: a woman, has a comfort with a woman on her period.

754
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: But that's again, this is such superficial information. I do

755
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 2: want to know more. I mean, this case is I'm

756
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm very fascinated with this case.

757
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: You know, of course, with semen being found on Mary Anne.

758
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: You know, in this day and age, this is a

759
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: solvable case. And right now I don't know if it's

760
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: if this is a solve case or not. With what

761
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 2: you've told me, Well.

762
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: Let's continue on here. They are trying to predict when

763
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: this happened, how closely the girls die together, if the

764
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: offender kept one alive longer. They think that they died

765
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: within a half an hour of one another. But they

766
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: said that the hot sand made it difficult because it

767
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: delayed rigor. Is that true hot sand, Well, it's not so.

768
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: Much, it's it's the temperature. It's not the sand. You know.

769
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: Rigor is something that had that does vary in terms

770
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: of its onset based off of temperature, those environmental factors

771
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: in a cooler environment, because everything slows down in the

772
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: cold environment, the decompositional process slows down, it does take longer.

773
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: So it's possible that this hot sand could have sped

774
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 2: up rigor. And so I'm thinking about the temporal aspects.

775
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 2: They isolate themselves. At one o'clock in the afternoon, we

776
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: don't know right now. Were they killed in the afternoon,

777
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: and were their bodies buried with this hot sand in

778
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: that afternoon, or were they out there for a period

779
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: of time and now they're killed and the sun has

780
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 2: gone down and things are cooler, but the heat if

781
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 2: they were buried with hot sand, that could speed up rigor.

782
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: But then they go overnight, they're not found until the

783
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: next day.

784
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: I will tell you the sand is a real pain

785
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: in the ass because, and you can talk about sand

786
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: at a crime scene, they have to use mechanical equipment

787
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: to sift through the area to see if they can

788
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: get any evidence, and the sand is just falling all

789
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: over the place. They eventually recover an old knife and

790
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: a piece of star that was broken off of the

791
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: piece of a knife, and they link that to Christina

792
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: Marianne's deaths, but they don't find anything else. They don't

793
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: find any other clues. And I know that sand must

794
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: be just awful to deal with as a crime scene.

795
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: Did you ever work any cases where sand was involved

796
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: the beach stuff?

797
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I had the east end of my account,

798
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: even though it wasn't necessarily up against the water, is

799
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: very very sandy, you know. So, you know, dealing with

800
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: the sand on some of these these crime scenes can

801
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: be difficult. I have cases in which I've been up

802
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: on the coastline, you know, and really it was that

803
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: the muck that was a pain in the butt. Being

804
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: in the Tooley's and this muddy area was really tough

805
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: to deal with. I think I would rejoice with sand

806
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 2: because it's it's easy to sift through, you know, if

807
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: I'm trying to find something, it's it's that's relatively easy

808
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: with the types of tools that we would bring out

809
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 2: to do crime scene processing versus trying to sift through

810
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 2: mud where you need to have running water. Now I

811
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: know Christine's shorts were found. Were the rest of their

812
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 2: clothing found at the crime scene?

813
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 1: Yes, nothing was taken as far as they can tell, ripped,

814
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: but not taken. And now things get confusing as far

815
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: as I'm concerned. They look at Christine's stomach contents. She

816
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: did not bring food with her. That doesn't mean she

817
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: didn't eat any food, but they know that the only

818
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: food that the kids had with them was fruit and sandwiches.

819
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: And what they say was Marianne had undigested. What they

820
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: say in quotes vegetable matter, which one media source says

821
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 1: was actually cabbage and celery. They did not have cabbage

822
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 1: and celery with them, and they think it was eaten

823
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: sometime in the hour before Marianne's death. Now, Christine has

824
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: a blood alcohol content of point zero one five, which

825
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: they say is about the amount of alcohol produced by

826
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: ten ounces of beer. Does that sound right to you?

827
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 2: So, typically a twelve ounce can of beer, like for

828
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty pounds mail will raise the blood

829
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 2: alcohol level of about a point zero two. Now she's

830
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: at a point zero one five and you're telling me

831
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: she's petite. So likely if she had let's say one

832
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: beer and then she's eliminated, maybe she would rise up

833
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: a point zero three. And now she's eliminating some of

834
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: that alcohol. So at the time of her death and

835
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: when this sample's collected, she's down at the point zero

836
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: one five in her system at the time a sample

837
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: collection would be the equivalent of ten ounces of beer.

838
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: In all likelihood she drank more and then had eliminated

839
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: some of that before she was killed.

840
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: I mean, this girl, probably I would bet is one

841
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: hundred and ten maybe pounds. They look tiny. Would that

842
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,720
Speaker 1: ten ounces of beer plus maybe another ten ounce something.

843
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: We don't know, would that have been enough to really

844
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: disable her or what state would she have been in

845
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: with little food? Actually there's no food in Christine's dumming.

846
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm assuming she's a novice drinker, you know, victimology. Again,

847
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 2: in all likelihoods, she probably has never consumed alcohol or

848
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: has maybe experimented with it a few times as just

849
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: a teenager. But you know, physiologically, she's a novice drinker.

850
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 2: And if she drank let's say, two cans, two twelve

851
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 2: ounce cans of beers, she would be feeling it. Now,

852
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 2: she's not completely blasted, but she is most certainly going

853
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: to be feeling you know, two beers in her system,

854
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 2: and you know, she's at this state of probably relaxed, uninhibited,

855
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 2: you know, somewhat gigly, you know, after two beers. And

856
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 2: that's kind of my guess is that she probably had

857
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 2: one to two beers and is just kind of enjoying

858
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: whatever the scenario that's going on before things turned violent.

859
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: So remember, Paul Marianne doesn't have any alcohol in her system,

860
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 1: she just has food. So now I think back and think,

861
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: is that why she got fourteen stab wounds because she

862
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: was more difficult to kill. It doesn't seem like she

863
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: was drunk at all. There was no alcohol in her system.

864
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: So wouldn't she likely have put up more of a fight.

865
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 2: She may have put up more resistance to the offenders advances.

866
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 2: You know, she's you know, she's got her wherewithals about her.

867
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 2: Whether or not she's more capable of putting up a

868
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: physical fight than Christine, and Christine is definitely in a

869
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: very inebriated state. It's likely, I would say, So, does

870
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: that mean that's why the offenders had to inflict more

871
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 2: stab wounds? Not necessarily?

872
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 1: Okay, I have some more information for you that wasn't

873
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: in research, But I was just curious about. I was wondering,

874
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: because it's beer, what the legal drinking age was in

875
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: I'll stroll in this time. I assumed it was eighteen.

876
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: It wasn't. It was twenty one. Okay, So I've got

877
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: some information. A witness who you got to tell me

878
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: of is reliable or unreliable. But I'm telling you, we've

879
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: got people pointing to kids about this crime, and I

880
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: just wonder. I mean, I guess a kid could steal

881
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: a beer or two or three or four from his

882
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: dad's refrigerator. But you know, I know we you and

883
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: I kind of talk about our teenagers, young teenage boys

884
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: able to do something like this, but I'll tell you know,

885
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: they're really going to start thinking about kids maybe coming up.

886
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, in terms of physical capability, you know, a

887
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: sixteen year old boy physically would be able to commit

888
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: the type of violence that you see on these two girls. Now,

889
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: this is where you know, digging into like I talked

890
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: about before, you know, with if Christine Schwartz or shoved vagely,

891
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: Not that it eliminates the teenage boy. That just suggests

892
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: to me that I'm dealing with somebody that maybe had

893
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 2: greater comfort with women on their period and has been

894
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 2: in a maybe a longer term sexual relationship with a woman,

895
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: which would suggest maybe somebody a little bit older, not

896
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: necessarily a lot older. But the scenario, you have two

897
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 2: fifteen year old girls sneaking off and there's alcohol and food.

898
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: It's like they have this pre arranged meeting. And is

899
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: this with older boys? Is this with you know a

900
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 2: couple of guys that are in their early twenties, mid twenties,

901
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: or is it with boys that are their same age.

902
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 2: I think it's probably going to be somebody a little

903
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 2: bit older.

904
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: Well, let's find out what We have a witness saying.

905
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: So this is Wolfgang and he is seven. This is

906
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: what Wolfgang says. He's one of the kids who was there.

907
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: He's leaning up against the dune. He says that he

908
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: had seen the girls walking into the sand dunes, you know,

909
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: far away, after they had left them behind with this

910
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: is what he describes as a fat boy who was

911
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: in his teens to sixteen, who had light hair, a quote,

912
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,760
Speaker 1: smooth face, a blue towel, light gray pants. He can't

913
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 1: remember all the details about this boy, can't put together

914
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: a sketch even a seven so, of course, but he

915
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: does remember some specific things. What do you think about

916
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: the reliability of Wolfgang's statement about seeing the girls with

917
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: this chubby boy.

918
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 2: Well, you know, first, of course, is his age. Second

919
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: is the distance that he's seeing this boy with the girls.

920
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 2: So you know, both factor in as to the veracity

921
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: and the accuracy of the information that he's able to provide.

922
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 2: But also we have another witness, an adult male, Dennis,

923
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,240
Speaker 2: who had seen the girls walking up into the sand dunes.

924
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: He sees one of the girls looking over her shoulders. Right,

925
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: You would think Dennis would also say there was this

926
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 2: boy with them, and he's not saying that. I probably

927
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 2: put greater weight on Dennis's information when Wolfgang is seeing

928
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: the girls with this heavier kid. You know, is this

929
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 2: at the same time that Dennis is seeing the girls

930
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 2: walking into the sand dunes or not.

931
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: We don't have time stamps on that. Unfortunately, I wish

932
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: we knew.

933
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so it's something to register, you know,

934
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: because maybe Wolfgang is accurate, but I wouldn't put too

935
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 2: much weight on it.

936
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: Well, Wolfgang adds to his story, which I think is interesting.

937
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: Two days later, he says, I've remembered some other things.

938
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: He had seen that boy, who he described as a

939
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: fat teenage boy, the same young man before they left

940
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: Cronella Beach and headed toward Wanda Beach. He said that

941
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 1: the boy was a teenage boy was trying to catch

942
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: crabs from a rock slab where the kids had eaten

943
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: their sandwiches and stored their belonging. So this very large

944
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: rock slab he is on one end, and he is

945
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: using a spear gun and a knife to catch crabs.

946
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: He doesn't say that any interaction. He said the teen

947
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: that had the knife, it was holstered on his side,

948
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: and he said that the boy tried to chat up

949
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: the girls and they ignored him. So then he says,

950
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: ten minutes after Christine and Marianne left the kids, this

951
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: is a mile and a half later, at Wanda Beach,

952
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: that he had seen that same teenage boy walking toward

953
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 1: Cronulla Beach by himself, Wolfgang, because the teen was in

954
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: the direction of where the girls went, and now he's

955
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: heading back. Ten minutes later, Wolfgang yells out, where are

956
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: the girls? Where's my sister and her friend? And the

957
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: boy completely ignored it, and he says that the knife

958
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: on the kid's hip was gone. And this is an

959
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 1: issue because none of the other kids say that they

960
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: remember seeing this at all, not even the ten or

961
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: the eleven year old. I don't know if it's somebody

962
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: coaching him, or if these are real memories, or if

963
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: this is just something he made up in his head

964
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: just to figure out what the heck happened to his sister.

965
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: Well, and that is a phenomenon that does occur, you know,

966
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: and I've seen it with with some of the cases

967
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 2: that these older cases I've worked in where you have

968
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: these young witnesses and some of the details that they

969
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 2: provide turned out to be false details. You know, they

970
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 2: do construct details as time goes on, you know. So

971
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 2: of course this is where if wolf Gaing is bringing

972
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,479
Speaker 2: up these details, this is you know, interviewing because there's

973
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 2: several older kids in this group. There's a Peter that's ten.

974
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 2: Do we have corroborating information from the other kids about

975
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: this this heavier set boy that's out there spearfishing with

976
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 2: the knife on his hip, girls interacting with him. We

977
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,760
Speaker 2: know we have this this man Dennis, you know, who's

978
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 2: out there? Does he see this boy? This is where

979
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: now tracking down anybody who's on the beach you know

980
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 2: that day and saying, hey, you know, was was this

981
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 2: boy scene? Who is this boy? He sounds like he's

982
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: a local, you know, he's possibly somebody goes to this

983
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,280
Speaker 2: beach on a periodic basis. You know, with enough boots

984
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 2: on the ground, you possibly could identify this boy and

985
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 2: interview him and find out if he had any involvement

986
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 2: with it. I do have concerns about the details Wolfgang

987
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 2: is providing over the course of time, and does this

988
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 2: boy have like a cash of alcohol and food tucked

989
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 2: away in the sand dunes, you know, while he's out spearfishing.

990
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: How old is this boy? You know, there's a lot

991
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: of questions that I have about this.

992
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: So here's the problem for the police. First of all,

993
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: just like you, they're very skeptical of wolfgang story. He said, Listen,

994
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: I saw this kid when I was alone. I was

995
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: worried about my sister. I got up. But still, you know,

996
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: nobody remembers the interaction between the teenage boy and the

997
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 1: two girls where they brush him off. But let's move

998
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,240
Speaker 1: past that. I mean, really, if I shorthand this story,

999
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: there are countless teenage blonde boys on these beaches. This

1000
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: is beach season. There are I'm telling you, Paul, perverts

1001
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: that they interview. There are teenage boys that they interview.

1002
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 1: At the end of this story, they interview fourteen thousand people.

1003
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: And this goes on for a decade. They don't let

1004
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: this case go, and they are having the worst time

1005
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: because this is a beach that attracts people who are

1006
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: soliciting sex, who are trying to molest teenage girls on

1007
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: the beach. There are na'er dowells every time you throw

1008
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: a rock, you're gonna hit one. And then there are

1009
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 1: these surfer boys. So it is just an endless amount

1010
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: of suspects for these police who are desperately trying to

1011
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: figure out who murdered these girls.

1012
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this is a nightmare scenario in

1013
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 2: terms of suspect pool. You know, and you get to

1014
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 2: where when you start talking about numbers like that, you know,

1015
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 2: an interview just is not going to cut it. You know,

1016
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 2: you really can't sort through that number of males with

1017
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 2: just sheer circumstances to figure out which one is unless

1018
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: the person says yes, I did it or really hinks up,

1019
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 2: you really aren't going to be able to get in depth,

1020
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 2: particularly a decade later. You know. This is where this

1021
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 2: case is a physical evidence case. This is where the

1022
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: offender intimately interacted with these two girls. Whether it's one

1023
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: offender or multiple offenders, there's transference a physical evidence. We

1024
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 2: know we have Semen and Mary Anne. We know the

1025
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 2: offender or another offender physically interacted with Christine to the

1026
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 2: point where he is shoving her shorts up into her.

1027
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 2: That's where today, what have they done with the physical evidence?

1028
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: Well, let me kind of wrap this up here by

1029
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: telling you a couple of things. One I think is

1030
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: very interesting, which is the detectives get a hold of

1031
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: the girl's diaries and they find out that Christine and

1032
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: Marianne met some teenage boys on the beach during New

1033
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: Year's Day. I told you they had a visit there,

1034
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: and according to the researcher Whitaker, who wrote about this,

1035
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: the girls had parted with a kiss with these boys

1036
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: and they made a promise to meet them again. We

1037
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: don't know if that's what happened here, but we do

1038
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: know that they had met boys, teenage boys, and that

1039
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: was sort of their best lead. This is an unsolved case.

1040
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: This has gone on for years and years and years.

1041
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: I read an article in twenty twelve. They got the

1042
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: killer's blood type from the seamen left at the scene,

1043
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: and they have not been able to link the DNA

1044
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: back to a specific individual. I do not know if

1045
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: they've used you know, genealogy. It doesn't sound like they did,

1046
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 1: but they do have a sample, is what it sounds

1047
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: like to me.

1048
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, some countries have started to use genealogy after we

1049
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,479
Speaker 2: did it with Golden State killer. I mean, we're much

1050
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 2: more progressive here in the United States using genealogy on

1051
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: criminal casework than many other countries. I think Austria is

1052
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: starting to use it, but I don't know to what extent.

1053
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 2: But in this day and age, that's how this case

1054
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 2: would be solved, is that semen sample from Mary Anne.

1055
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 2: They need to do genealogy on and see where that

1056
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: leads them.

1057
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: Well, let me read you this. This is from a

1058
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: newspaper article from the Sydney Morning, Harold, and this is

1059
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: a long time ago twenty fourteen. The identity of the

1060
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: Wanda Beach killer may never be revealed through scientific means.

1061
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: After it was revealed, a DNA sample taken from one

1062
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: of the victims almost fifty years ago has been quote lost.

1063
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 1: So the semen sample, which holds a DNA profile, was

1064
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: listed as an exhibit, but despite exhaustive searches of the

1065
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: Glebe forensic laboratories where it was housed, it has not

1066
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: been located. It was from Marianne, where the Semen was located. Yeah,

1067
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: they can't find it, they said, it's the NSW Unsolved

1068
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: Homicide Unit says there's not a trace of it. He

1069
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: said that testing of the girl's clothing was continuing and

1070
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:06,959
Speaker 1: he believed could be the key to solving the case

1071
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: was still through the physical evidence. Trace DNA was detected

1072
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: on Christine Schwartz. She was the one who had him

1073
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: shoved into her crotch, but it was very old integrated.

1074
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 1: It only indicated female DNA Christine's. We're assuming there's an

1075
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: indication of male DNA, but it has not been definitively

1076
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: identified as yet. We just have to keep on re

1077
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: examining all the available evidence as science improves. This was

1078
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: a long time ago. This is twenty fourteen. I don't

1079
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: know where they stand now, but that is from what

1080
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: I see the most recent article.

1081
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: I have brought into this on way too many cases

1082
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 2: where the most probative evidence turns out to be misplaced.

1083
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 2: But it sounds like at one point in time during

1084
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: the DNA era, they got the ABO type. But it

1085
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 2: also sounds like they did generate a DNA profile from

1086
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 2: that semen sample from Mary Ann.

1087
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: Is that right and the one they lost?

1088
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: You know, this is where it is literally walking through

1089
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 2: where that sample went during that DNA testing and what

1090
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 2: ends up happening is is that during the process of

1091
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: evaluating you know, the swab or the clothing item you know,

1092
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 2: cuttings may be taken, tubes are generated, and then subsequent

1093
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 2: tubes with DNA extracts are generated, and then samples from

1094
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: that DNA extract is in run on the instrument. But

1095
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: along each step there's potentially a thunder DNA still left,

1096
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 2: and you have to go through and look at all

1097
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 2: these potential repositories, and maybe in a freezer in the

1098
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 2: lab somewhere tucked in the back is the DNA extract

1099
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: tube or the tube you know that was generated during

1100
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 2: the screening process, or a cutting from whatever item the

1101
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: semen was found on. I would think they would do that,

1102
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 2: but I've seen agencies that because oftentimes it's the investigators

1103
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 2: who are going to the property room and going, okay,

1104
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 2: wor's sample, and the proper room's going, we can't find it,

1105
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 2: and they call up the lab and the lab said, well,

1106
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 2: we returned it, But nobody's actually looking at all the

1107
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 2: various individual steps that that sample went through during the

1108
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: analysis process to see is there something there. Maybe the

1109
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 2: tube is gone, but the original packaging that the swab

1110
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 2: was put in, if it was a swab, still remains well.

1111
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 2: That swab, while it was moist probably touched the inside

1112
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 2: of that packaging, and you have a sample from inside

1113
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 2: the package that looks empty, but the DNA is in there.

1114
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: People often overlook that, So that's part of what I

1115
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 2: would hope that they had done to say it's all gone,

1116
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 2: you know, and it can be. I've run into cases

1117
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 2: where it's like, no, it's just not there. But at

1118
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: least they have other physical items that could potentially have

1119
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 2: a fender DNA on it. Nineteen sixty five. Did they

1120
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 2: collect Marianne and Christine's fingernails? Did they collect the toenail?

1121
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 2: I do believe that based off of the intimate interactions

1122
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 2: that the offender offenders had with Mary Anne and Christine,

1123
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 2: that there is the possibility and I hope it still

1124
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 2: is possible that they could recover offender DNA in this

1125
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 2: day and age and potentially solve the case. I mean,

1126
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 2: it would be so sad, you know that if this

1127
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 2: case is now rendered unsolvable because somebody misplaced that seeman evidence.

1128
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 1: We'll see. This case is the oldest one under review

1129
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: by the Unsolved homicide Unit there in Australia, so it

1130
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 1: seems like it's active, but there have been confessions kind

1131
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: of the one of the latest latest articles is that

1132
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: a pedophile who was abusing his own daughter and sister

1133
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: confessed quote unquote, but there's nothing about an arrest. So

1134
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: we know that happens all the time. And they have

1135
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: a list of serial killers who were you know, around

1136
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: and like people who were serial harassers or you know, rapists,

1137
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: and there's an endless supply of people for them to

1138
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 1: go through. And it does sound like it will come

1139
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: down to the DNA.

1140
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, did they identify the boys that the girls had

1141
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 2: met up with in the diary?

1142
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: Never did, really, Yeah, or if they did, they were

1143
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: crossed off immediately, but they were not focused in They're

1144
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: not even listed as potential suspects. It was either they

1145
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: were not found at all because they probably didn't use

1146
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: their names in their diaries, or you know, they were

1147
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: immediately crossed off the list for whatever reason. But they

1148
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: were never serious suspects. It was interesting though to the

1149
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 1: police that they had met these boys.

1150
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 2: One of the items that I think would be high

1151
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 2: priority as the knife. The girls didn't bring that knife.

1152
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: The offender brought the knife. You know, how rigorously have

1153
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 2: they gone after DNA from the offender off of the knife? Yeah,

1154
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: or even latents depending on you know, the surfaces that

1155
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 2: are present on that knife.

1156
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: Well, I told you this is a hefty case. This

1157
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: was a lot for especially for one episode. And I

1158
01:04:57,640 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: think that this is a case because of these two

1159
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: teenage girls who just went out there. We don't know

1160
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 1: why they took some actions that they did, but this

1161
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: has really been a case that has just endured years

1162
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: and years and years and years. I know that some

1163
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 1: of Marian's siblings are around and they've spoken out about it,

1164
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 1: and everybody just wants answers. So you know, I know

1165
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: that this was a difficult case for me to get

1166
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 1: through just because I have twin girls who are just

1167
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, six months younger than these girls were, and

1168
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: that's hard. But it's also good to be able to

1169
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: review these cases because I learned something every time. So

1170
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: as always, thanks for that, Paul.

1171
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I'm looking at this going Okay,

1172
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 2: whatever agency is investigating this case flied me out there.

1173
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 2: This is a case I would want to work.

1174
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: I would love for us to get involved in one

1175
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: of these cases. So we'll see. We are off next week.

1176
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 1: Which is why I was okay with giving with us

1177
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: having such a big case here because we need a rest,

1178
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 1: so we're off next week, but I will bring back

1179
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: another fantastic case one week.

1180
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to it. Thanks Kate.

1181
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1182
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1183
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1184
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1185
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1186
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1187
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1188
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1189
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1190
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 1: ary Bones Pod.

1191
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1192
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1193
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1194
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1195
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:51,959
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now