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Speaker 1: It wasn't a completely crazy thing to call it donut economics,

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Speaker 1: because some people say, this is a very serious model.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the future of life on earth. How

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Speaker 1: could you name it after American drunk fruit. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people are intimidated by economics, but no one's afraid

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Speaker 1: of donuts. You might love them or hate than being're

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Speaker 1: not afraid. And it just tells you this is a

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Speaker 1: playful space. And so people showed up and started playing.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Citizen with Baritune Day, a podcast

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Speaker 1: that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status.

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Speaker 1: This season is all about how we practice democracy, what

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Speaker 1: can we get rid of, what can we invent, and

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Speaker 1: how do we change the culture of democracy itself. We're

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Speaker 1: leaving the theoretical clouds and hitting the ground with inspiring

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Speaker 1: examples of people and institutions that are showing us new

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Speaker 1: ways to govern ourselves. When I first heard economist Kate

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Speaker 1: ray Worth describe her theory of donut economics, I thought

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Speaker 1: it sounded delicious. It was twenty eighteen and I was

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Speaker 1: at this big, fancy conference all about bold new ideas

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Speaker 1: to solve some of our most pressing problems. Ted it

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Speaker 1: was the TED conference. Okay, there were talks on AI

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Speaker 1: mitigating the impacts of climate change, y'all. Tracy Ellis Ross

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Speaker 1: even made an appearance. So when Kate got up on

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Speaker 1: that stage and started talking about sweet fried dough, it

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Speaker 1: caught me off guard. But the vision she shared for

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Speaker 1: a new circular economy that works for everyone, I was like, yum. Literally, economics,

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Speaker 1: as we traditionally know it is all about one thing, growth,

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Speaker 1: and we don't just hear it from economists. We hear

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Speaker 1: it from politicians and journalists all the time. We need

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Speaker 1: to grow our GDP. We've got a max homage this

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Speaker 1: and optimize that. We have to produce more and consume more.

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Speaker 1: They all say we need to keep the economy growing,

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Speaker 1: But looking around, I can't say that what we're growing

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Speaker 1: is actually good. You know it, and I know it.

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Speaker 1: We can't maintain endless growth, at least not in a

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Speaker 1: healthy way, and that fact seems to be obvious except

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Speaker 1: when it comes to our economy. I mean, when something

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Speaker 1: grows endlessly in our bodies, we call that cancer and

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Speaker 1: rush to get it under control so it doesn't destroy

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Speaker 1: its host. So why would we insist that our economy

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Speaker 1: can grow endlessly without destroying us the people who live

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Speaker 1: within it, and destroy the planet that we live on.

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Speaker 1: So if endless growth isn't the goal, what is. How

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Speaker 1: About we prioritize people and the planet instead of just profit.

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Speaker 1: How About we meet the needs of everyone without exceeding

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Speaker 1: the limits of our only planet. And how about we

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Speaker 1: find ways to thrive in that space between an inner

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Speaker 1: boundary of human need and an outer boundary of planetary limits,

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Speaker 1: a space, oddly enough, that's shaped like a donut. This

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Speaker 1: is what donut economics is all about. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: the economy a lot on this show because, as we

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Speaker 1: said in season two, it's hard to citizen when you

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Speaker 1: can't pay the bills. Now, in that season, we explored

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Speaker 1: how wealth inequality stifles democracy. We talk to historians, organizers,

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Speaker 1: and entrepreneurs. We learned about cooperative economics, social franchises, and

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Speaker 1: other business models that put people and the planet at

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Speaker 1: the center. Kate's theory of donut economics gives all these

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Speaker 1: beautiful solutions an umbrella to live under. It helps those

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Speaker 1: of us who are frustrated by an economy that only

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Speaker 1: works for a select few find and connect with one

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Speaker 1: another so we can build something better together. Kate first

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Speaker 1: coined the term donut economics a decade ago, and her

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen book of the same name, Donut Economics, Seven

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Speaker 1: Ways to Think Like a twenty first Century Economist, is

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Speaker 1: an international bestseller. From promoting regenerative design practices to encouraging

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Speaker 1: play and experimentation, Kate has envisioned a new cyclical way

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Speaker 1: our economy confunction. In that time, the donut has spread

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Speaker 1: far and wide. In twenty twenty, Amsterdam announced it would

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Speaker 1: start embracing the theory of donut economics, along with cities

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Speaker 1: like Barcelona and Philadelphia. And the donut isn't just trickling

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Speaker 1: down to borrow a term from economics, It's bubbling up

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Speaker 1: in communities around the world. Kate's even created a lab,

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Speaker 1: the Donut Comics Action Lab, to support people turning this

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Speaker 1: theory into action. So you're in for a sweet treat

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Speaker 1: of a conversation after the break, Kate Rayworth on how

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Speaker 1: we build an economy that works for the people and

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Speaker 1: the planet. Kate Rayworth, Welcome to How to Citizen. Hi.

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Speaker 1: It's a big, big pleasure to be here. I'm really delighted.

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Speaker 1: I'm very very much looking forward to this conversation. All right,

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Speaker 1: so I want to dive in right off the bat.

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Speaker 1: What is doughnut economics. So the first thing I'm going

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Speaker 1: to completely disappoint you. There was no pastry involved, just misdirection,

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Speaker 1: false advertising, the classic neoliberal economic thinking already. Yeah, See,

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Speaker 1: the best donuts are conceptual. It's just about the shape.

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Speaker 1: So if we put it in the simplest of terms,

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Speaker 1: we need to meet the needs of all people in

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Speaker 1: the means of the living planet. So imagine a donut

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Speaker 1: with a hole in the middle, and think of humanity's

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Speaker 1: use of earth resources radiating out from the scent of

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Speaker 1: the donut in every direction. So that means that the

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Speaker 1: hole in the donut is a place where people are

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Speaker 1: left falling short on the essentials of life. It's the

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Speaker 1: place where people do not want to be because you

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Speaker 1: don't have the resources to have good healthcare and education,

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Speaker 1: decent housing, energy, food, clean air. You don't have political voice, income,

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Speaker 1: access to transport, right, the essentials of life that ensure

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Speaker 1: that everybody has a life of dignity, community, an opportunity.

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Speaker 1: So leave no one in the hole, and then there's

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Speaker 1: a big butt as we collectively seek to meet the

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Speaker 1: needs and some of the wants of people. We use

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Speaker 1: ours resources. We transform land to grow food, We withdraw

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Speaker 1: water from lakes and rivers, We burn fossil fuels, we

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Speaker 1: cut forests, we take fish from the sea. We start

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Speaker 1: to put pressure on our planetary home. And so just

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Speaker 1: as we want to leave no one in the all,

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Speaker 1: we also don't want to overshoot the outer crust of

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Speaker 1: this donut. Because the outer crust is what's known as

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Speaker 1: the planetary boundaries, and these are the life supporting systems

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Speaker 1: of our planetary home. Like if you think of your body,

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Speaker 1: our bodies have a digestive system and nerveless system, and

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Speaker 1: we need to keep all of these systems imbalance in

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Speaker 1: health working together. So our planet has the same She

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Speaker 1: has a carbon cycle, she has nutrient cycles, she has

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Speaker 1: a web of life, and we need to keep these

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Speaker 1: imbalance in working well together. So I like to say

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Speaker 1: to people, what do you think is the shape of

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Speaker 1: economic progress? Because if you listen to an economist, if

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Speaker 1: you listen to a politician, the shape apparently is growth endlessly,

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Speaker 1: no matter how rich nation already is. I'm in the

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Speaker 1: UK or in the US, we live in two of

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Speaker 1: the richest countries in the history of humanity, and yet

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Speaker 1: our economists, our politicians think that the solution to all

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Speaker 1: of our problems lie in yet more growth, endlessly. There's

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Speaker 1: no end in sight. Now, there's something utterly absurd about that,

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Speaker 1: and I think we really need to take seriously what

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Speaker 1: is the shape of aggress? That is a practical and

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Speaker 1: delicious metaphor, and it just makes sense. There's a floor

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Speaker 1: below which we don't want to fall into that inner hole.

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Speaker 1: There's a ceiling beyond which we risk the whole system. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the things you've done in your book is

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Speaker 1: you've you've highlighted these seven key concepts that are designed

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Speaker 1: to have us actually build this out. You've got changing

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Speaker 1: the goalpost and shifting our perspective on what economics actually is.

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Speaker 1: You've got things like designing to redistribute. So can you

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Speaker 1: give an overview of what these concepts are and how

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Speaker 1: you landed on these seven So I first sketched this

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Speaker 1: doughnut on a little scrap of paper that you do

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Speaker 1: ten years ago, okay, and I was working at OXFAM

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Speaker 1: at the time when we published this discussion paper, Like

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Speaker 1: you know, well, this is an interesting idea, and it

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Speaker 1: had way more resonance in the world and traction with

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Speaker 1: people than I had possibly imagined. It was clear that

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Speaker 1: really help people empower themselves in debate about saying this

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Speaker 1: is a vision of an economy, and now I can

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Speaker 1: advocate for really different policies, and I feel strengthened in that.

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Speaker 1: So if we put this as the goal of what

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Speaker 1: they want the economy to be, then it invites this

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Speaker 1: really exciting question what kind of economy would actually help

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Speaker 1: get us there? And it was really clear to me

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Speaker 1: that what I didn't want to do is try and

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Speaker 1: come up with a list of policies because that's not

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Speaker 1: going to be relevant across countries, and who knows what

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Speaker 1: crisis might be around the corner and what might happen next.

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Speaker 1: So what I wanted to do is put forward a

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Speaker 1: set of principles. So the subtitle of my book is

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Speaker 1: seven Ways to Think like a twenty first century economist,

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Speaker 1: and that was really important. It was not claiming to

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Speaker 1: have defined the answer, but it's like ways to think.

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Speaker 1: What if we become systems thinkers, which just means we

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Speaker 1: understand that things have feedback loops, right, What if we

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Speaker 1: recognize we live in an have inherited in economic system

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Speaker 1: that's deeply divisive through legislation, through privilege, through inheritance captures

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Speaker 1: value and opportunity in the hands of a few. So

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Speaker 1: how could we make a distributive economy in all the

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Speaker 1: different ways you could do that? To bring it close

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Speaker 1: home right to how to citizen? What if we would

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Speaker 1: to realize that the character of humanity put the center

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Speaker 1: of economic theories gives us the most narrow version of

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Speaker 1: who we are, and we actually need to nurture the

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Speaker 1: very best of human nature and we imagine ourselves. Where

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Speaker 1: these principles came from first was so I studied economics

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Speaker 1: at university, right, and I was like thirty years ago,

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Speaker 1: and I was really frustrated because the issues I cared

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Speaker 1: about social justice, environmental integrity just was on the margins

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Speaker 1: of the syllabus and you had to kind of beg

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Speaker 1: and knock on the door and try and reframe them

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Speaker 1: to make them even show up in economics. And when

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Speaker 1: I came back to economics many many years later, I

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Speaker 1: then read all the economics I had never been taught.

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Speaker 1: So I read feminist economics, ecological economics, complexity, institutional behaviorally

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Speaker 1: comes and there are amazing ideas there, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to bring them together and get them to dance on

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Speaker 1: the same page. So I'm just starting by recognizing that

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing is really celebrating the work of many

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Speaker 1: diverse elders economics elders and people who would never have

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Speaker 1: called themselves economists but have hugely influenced these ideas. So

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Speaker 1: in one way, it's a stretch, and yet the ideas

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Speaker 1: go back a long way. Regenerative thinking goes back in

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Speaker 1: Western tradition, it goes back decades. In other cultural traditions,

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Speaker 1: it goes back millennia. So is it a stretch or

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Speaker 1: is it a term I sometimes think of donate economics

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Speaker 1: is a bit of a Western mindset recovery program. Instead

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Speaker 1: of twelve steps, it's seven ways. Because you can't just

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Speaker 1: appropriate an indigenous culture's wisdom and say, oh, well, we'll

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Speaker 1: just take that, thank you very much, to make that us.

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Speaker 1: You have to find your own way towards the wisdom

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Speaker 1: that it already frets. I think, yeah, this new way

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Speaker 1: of being, a new way of thinking, it sounds really optimistic,

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Speaker 1: it sounds really beautiful. And when we talk about redistribution

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Speaker 1: and collaboration, I'm like, oh, that sounds a one more socialist,

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Speaker 1: but it's not totally a socialist thing you're proposing. Where

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Speaker 1: does this live in the tradition? And how have you

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Speaker 1: seen people willing to break our own sense of imagination

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Speaker 1: because it sounds so different from the way we're used

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Speaker 1: to conceiving of ourselves. Actually, funny enough, when I came

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Speaker 1: to the US in twenty seventeen, where my book first

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Speaker 1: came out, I was surprised by how quickly people go, oh,

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Speaker 1: zero communists, that's what we do here. That's what we

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Speaker 1: do here. It's a very binary world. Your weather's here

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Speaker 1: against as your capitalist your common Yeah, I know, now,

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Speaker 1: I know. So what I aim to do in the

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Speaker 1: book and in the way I present these ideas, if

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Speaker 1: we just kind of push those old isms aside, because

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Speaker 1: we quickly talk past each other. If five people say capitalism,

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Speaker 1: I'll bet you they don't have common definition. If they

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Speaker 1: say socialism, they don't become And I like using a

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Speaker 1: newer language, which is, we've inherited the degenerative world, we

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Speaker 1: need to make it regenerative. We've inherited a divisive world,

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Speaker 1: we need to make it distributive. Now, what kind of

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Speaker 1: economy would have half a chance of bringing about these dynamics.

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Speaker 1: And so far I've found that people just go farther

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Speaker 1: with you and engage more in it without having to

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Speaker 1: put on a big label. Thank you for that. There's

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Speaker 1: one of your ways and your method about nurturing human nature.

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Speaker 1: And some of what we've been taught is that human

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Speaker 1: nature is selfish, purely self interested. We are these rational

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Speaker 1: economic actors out to optimize our financially measurable potential in

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Speaker 1: the marketplace of everything, whether it's food or ideas, or

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Speaker 1: labor or love even And so you're proposing and reminding.

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Speaker 1: I would even say, in terms of the vision of return,

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Speaker 1: that we can be wired and are for cooperation, mutual aid,

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Speaker 1: and empathy. And that's very much in line with how

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Speaker 1: we see citizen as a verb here. Once we remember, right,

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Speaker 1: once we're prompted with this other vision of how we

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Speaker 1: can be, how do we bake that back into the economics,

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Speaker 1: because the way our economic system is built only recognizes

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Speaker 1: this little slice of how we show up. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I was really fascinated when I was writing the chapter

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Speaker 1: in my book about Nurture Human Nature to read economists

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Speaker 1: who had done research on what effect it has on

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Speaker 1: students when they're taught the model of humanity at the

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Speaker 1: center of mains to economics. So first, the character, as

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Speaker 1: you just said, is rational economic man, and he's never

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Speaker 1: actually drawn in the textbooks. But once I drawn the

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Speaker 1: donut and I'd realized the pa of pictures, I drew

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Speaker 1: a little picture of him, you know, on toilet doors.

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Speaker 1: There's kind of men's women to that little man who stand,

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Speaker 1: so I took that the icon. Yeah, so he looks

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Speaker 1: like that. He's a man. He's got no dependence. He's

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Speaker 1: not raising kids. He's standing alone. He's got his own

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Speaker 1: opinions and he's an independent, thank you very much. He's

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Speaker 1: got money in his hand, he's holding a dollar sign.

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Speaker 1: He's got ego in his heart, says me, on his chest.

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Speaker 1: He's got a calculator in his head. He's constantly calculating

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Speaker 1: the prices and the opportunity costs. He knows prices forwards

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Speaker 1: and backwards and everywhere in the future. And he's got

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Speaker 1: nature at his feet. You can imagine him standing, you know,

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Speaker 1: on a pinnacle of the living world domain beneath him. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that is essentially the character that gets written into

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Speaker 1: the equations and into the models. Now, researchers like Robert

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Speaker 1: Frank and others in the US found that the more

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Speaker 1: that students are told that he is like us, we

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Speaker 1: actually become more like him. So from year one to

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Speaker 1: year two Tier three of their studies, over time, students

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Speaker 1: more say economic students more say they value competition over collaboration,

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Speaker 1: They value self interest over altruism. This is what it

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Speaker 1: means to be a good economic player. Now that's devastating.

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Speaker 1: We create this narrow caricature and then students actually start

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Speaker 1: to mimic him. So who we tell ourselves we are

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Speaker 1: shapes who we become. It's predicated on that lonely man

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Speaker 1: theory of the world, which is we need growth to

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Speaker 1: provide opportunity. That opportunity will come at the expense of

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Speaker 1: the planet. That's just that's what we know how to do,

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Speaker 1: and we can't. We can't meet everyone's needs and not

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Speaker 1: also throw the planet into some disarray. It's impossible, Kate,

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Speaker 1: to meet everyone's needs and not like there's eight billion people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of needs, does it scale? I can

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Speaker 1: see someone saying okay on a farm in Vermont, cool cool, cool,

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Speaker 1: and an old indigenous community that's agriculturally based. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: But we got eight billion people who want their iPhones,

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Speaker 1: want their conveniences, want their meals to show up ten

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Speaker 1: minutes before they order them. How are we gonna satisfy

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Speaker 1: all of those needs and still maintain a balance ecologically

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Speaker 1: on this planet the way you defined it? Oh? Okay, Right,

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Speaker 1: So first of all you said everyone needs, but then

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Speaker 1: you said, like, you're gonna have an iPhone and my

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Speaker 1: meal is going to be at the door with delivery room,

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Speaker 1: and it's going to have mothers around everyone. It's going

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Speaker 1: to have my favorite kind of anti vite. So let's

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Speaker 1: just step So, what are our needs right as humanity?

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Speaker 1: And we've had a long conversation about this internationally. Let's

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Speaker 1: go back to night the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Speaker 1: It's been going on and on. So we recognize that

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Speaker 1: every person on this earth has a claim to food

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Speaker 1: and water, and education and healthcare and shelter. Right, So

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Speaker 1: there are essential rights, there are essential needs that need

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Speaker 1: to be met so that we have the capability to

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Speaker 1: have dignity to participate as an active citizen in society.

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Speaker 1: And I agree to have opportunities you just said now,

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Speaker 1: right now, the richest one percent of people in the

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Speaker 1: world own half of the world's wealth. So I don't

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Speaker 1: think we can take right now as a good indicator

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Speaker 1: of whether or not we can do this, because this

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Speaker 1: is a crazy starting point. Yeah, I think there's such

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to say, how are we going to meet

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Speaker 1: everyone's needs? How are we going to with appropriate technologies

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Speaker 1: and smart solutions, And there are such great ways you

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Speaker 1: can do it. Let me give an example. We need

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Speaker 1: to use fresh water to grow food. Now, historically we've

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Speaker 1: done that with spray irrigation, Like you just have these

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Speaker 1: hoses spraying all over fields and it does massive waste

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Speaker 1: of water. Take the same hose and you punch little

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Speaker 1: holes and you have drip irrigation, precision irrigation. You can

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Speaker 1: grow so much more food with the same amount of water,

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Speaker 1: or the same amount of food with so much less water.

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Speaker 1: So technology and governance and public provisioning and smart design

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Speaker 1: enables us to do so much more with few resources.

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Speaker 1: And then the economic question is a layout back, what

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Speaker 1: kind of economy will bring those technologies into existence and

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Speaker 1: make sure that they're accessible to walk And then I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go back for the very first thing you

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Speaker 1: said in that question. He said, we need growth to

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Speaker 1: have opportunity. I don't. I don't know. I think we

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Speaker 1: need opportunity to have opportunity. And it seems like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the growth that's been going on in the

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Speaker 1: world is giving a few very rich white men a

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Speaker 1: lot of opportunity, but many, many other people are losing

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Speaker 1: opportunity of it. So I don't at all think that

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Speaker 1: growth is tied that. I don't see evidence that growth

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Speaker 1: as we know it is tied to opportunity. Years ago,

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Speaker 1: I saw a man speak named al Noor Lada, and

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Speaker 1: he talked about infinite economic growth in the context of

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Speaker 1: biology and said, you know, when we have cells that

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Speaker 1: grow infinitely without end, by definition, that's malignantly cancerous and

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Speaker 1: it destroys the host. But when we design that into

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Speaker 1: our economy, we aspire to that. Yet the evidence is

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Speaker 1: that we're destroying the host. And so there is something

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Speaker 1: not sane about the pursuit of infinite growth. So I

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Speaker 1: want to dig into the lab, the donut economics action lab.

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Speaker 1: It sounds so profound and kind of silly at the

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Speaker 1: same time. So what is it and how did it

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Speaker 1: come about? So I see myself first and foremost as

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Speaker 1: an advocate. And when I was working at oxfand that

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Speaker 1: was when I drew this donut and the reaction to

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Speaker 1: it was amazing, and I had a realization that the

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Speaker 1: best next act of advocacy I can do in the

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Speaker 1: world is to actually leave my job here and go

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Speaker 1: and write a book. And I published the book, and

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Speaker 1: I was just giving lots and lots of talks, and

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Speaker 1: after talk people will come up to me and say,

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Speaker 1: I love the book, and I'm doing this. I'm a teacher.

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Speaker 1: It's not on the curriculum, but this is what I

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Speaker 1: know my students need to learn anything. Damn, I love that.

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Speaker 1: Teacher counselor's mayor starting getting such how can I do

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Speaker 1: this in my town? Can I do this my city? Entrepreneurs?

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Speaker 1: I'm taking this into my meeting community members like, wow,

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Speaker 1: people aren't doing this. They started making funny glasses in

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Speaker 1: the shape of donuts. What would the world look like

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Speaker 1: through donut lenses? What would the world look like through

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Speaker 1: donut lenses? Delicious? And how did that feel? Key to

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Speaker 1: see people engaging with the donut on that level. It

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Speaker 1: still amazes me. I still have to do that Is

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Speaker 1: this really happening? Is this really happening? Am I sitting

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Speaker 1: in the European Union in a very formal assembly of

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Speaker 1: people called donuts for EU? But also it was a

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Speaker 1: wonderful affirmation that it wasn't a completely crazy thing to

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Speaker 1: call it dont economics, because some people say, this is

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Speaker 1: a very serious model. We're talking about the future of

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Speaker 1: life on Earth. How could you name it after American

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Speaker 1: junk food? Okay? And I know, and I'm sorry, and

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Speaker 1: I tell the doctors. You know, I say to people promised,

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Speaker 1: don't eat donuts. This is the only one that's good

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Speaker 1: for us. But the unexpected benefit of giving it this

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Speaker 1: name is that, you know, a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: intimidated by economics or disinterested or walk away if you say,

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Speaker 1: I'm an economist. But no one's afraid of donuts. You

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Speaker 1: might love them or hate them, but you're not afraid.

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Speaker 1: And it just tells you this is a playful space.

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Speaker 1: And so people showed up and started playing Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: I realized, gosh, this is really exciting. People are starting

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Speaker 1: to do it. To find a way to bring them together.

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Speaker 1: So I found a fabulous co founder called Carlotta Sam

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Speaker 1: and I thought I don't want to make the donut institute.

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Speaker 1: That just sounds heavy and ridiculous. But when I thought

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Speaker 1: of an action lab, suddenly it felt really light and playful,

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Speaker 1: and it just it really works, because yes, it's all

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Speaker 1: about action. You know, I really believe that twenty first

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Speaker 1: century economics is going to be practiced first and theorized later,

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Speaker 1: the theories following, but the practitioners are running way ahead.

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Speaker 1: And it's a lab because every practice is an experiment.

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Speaker 1: It's an experiment popping up in the middle of an

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Speaker 1: old system, and not all of them will succeed and breakthrough.

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Speaker 1: So what does it mean for a city to adapt

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Speaker 1: the donut? For example, in Amsterdam, what changed because they said,

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Speaker 1: we want to be a donut city. Great question. So

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Speaker 1: the city of Amsterdam wanted back in twenty twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: wanted to introduce a policy committing to become a circular city,

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Speaker 1: meaning that it would be a city where sources don't

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Speaker 1: get used up and thrown away, that they get used

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Speaker 1: again and again. And they told us, you know, we

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Speaker 1: were beginning to think about kind of creating a circle

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Speaker 1: economy in a very technical materials way, and we gradually

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Speaker 1: realize it's not just about material flows. It's about people,

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Speaker 1: it's about jobs, it's about social equity, it's about transforming

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Speaker 1: how we live as well. So they adopted the donut

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Speaker 1: as like the vision level of their policy. The aim

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Speaker 1: is for Amsterdam to be a thriving, inclusive, regenerative city

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Speaker 1: for all residents within planetary boundaries. And they followed up

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Speaker 1: with goals, so saying, we aim to be a circular

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Speaker 1: city by twenty fifty. And I love that. That's like

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Speaker 1: Kennedy the mood shot. Right, we're going to get to them,

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Speaker 1: and we don't know how we're going to get there.

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Speaker 1: The point is to figure it out by trying, but

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Speaker 1: to be fifty percent circle by twenty thirty. They've given

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Speaker 1: themselves that goal. Now that's that's more exciting to me

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Speaker 1: because it's within seven years now and that's a significant shift.

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Speaker 1: So they had these ambitions and then they said, right,

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Speaker 1: we're going to start exploring this through housing and construction,

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Speaker 1: through textiles who knew Amsterdam is a denim hotspot, and

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Speaker 1: through food and said, let's start experimenting in these areas.

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Speaker 1: For example, in the city, there's one district where every

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Speaker 1: building that's built there has to be a circular building,

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Speaker 1: which means it's made of materials that have been or

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Speaker 1: can be or will be reused and reusable, and that

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Speaker 1: just changes the way architects design. When the regulations were

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Speaker 1: first introduced, at first it's like, you know, more rules,

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Speaker 1: But then they said, once we actually took into account

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Speaker 1: what would it mean to design in a circular way,

429
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: you suddenly find you're at the forefront of your field

430
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: and you're surrounded by cities like yourself who are going

431
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: to need to do this too. And suddenly you find

432
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: yourself at the front and that you're going to be

433
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: able to teach and get contracts and skills and spread

434
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: that information to others. So one interesting thing that's happened

435
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: is the city Amsterdam have had elections, right and in fact,

436
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: the person who was really known as the champion of

437
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: bringing the donut into the city of Amsterdam, she wasn't reelected.

438
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: So you think, oh, is this going to die now?

439
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: But there are new city politicians elected at politicians and

440
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: civil servants working within the city who are committed to it,

441
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: and that's been really interesting for us to see. I'll

442
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: say one more thing about amsterdamn When I first was

443
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: going there in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, when my

444
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: book first came out. The places I was going were

445
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: public halls and theaters in the city center, the kind

446
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: of the place where all the tourists go, and I

447
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: was getting talks in front of an audience. And last

448
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: time I went, I was out in two of the

449
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: neighborhoods where tourists never go. Lower income neighborhoods are really

450
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: truly multicultural neighborhoods in community centers, working on the nitty

451
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: gritty of how is this market going to reduce the

452
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: waste that's generated here every day when we sell tons

453
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: of fruit. It was a beautiful experience of this idea

454
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: has landed and that's a really symbolic mark. Yeah, and

455
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: I should say the city government of adoptive. But what's

456
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: really exciting as well, coming back to how to citizen,

457
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: a whole network of community organizations in Amsterdam said, well,

458
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: we can see that what we're already doing is helping

459
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: bring our city into the donuts. So they created the

460
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: Amsterdam Donut Coalition, which is a civic network, and they

461
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: every year whole Amsterdam Donut Days saying how are we doing?

462
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: I love the way you're smiling. That's the way a

463
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: smile is like, is that is really happening? There's a

464
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: what it's just it's called donut. Who can be mad?

465
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like if it's socialism Day,

466
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: you're going to draw a line in the sand, and

467
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: then some people will be very excited and some people

468
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: will be very annoyed. But it's donut Day, which is

469
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: just like a great sugary trojan horse for kind of

470
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: new ideas to find their way in. I'm glad you

471
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: went to the coalition because I think the impetus for

472
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: the first example, it sounded top down, like the government declared,

473
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: the mayor, you know, the city leader said we want

474
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: them to be and it kind of to borrow another

475
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: old economic we have thinking trickle down to the people,

476
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: but you also have folks in community. It sounds like

477
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: bubbling these things up. And so, in terms of whatever

478
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: you've seen in the US, are there other ways that

479
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: people have taken bites of the donut and implemented them

480
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: in their neighborhood, community, city levels that give us even

481
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: further ideas of what that change actually looks like. And

482
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: it's new in the US, it's been happening, even though

483
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: donuts is our thing, even though oh there's so much

484
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: to kin, there's so much you have a National Donut Day.

485
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I just can't wait till you know national

486
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: whole other meaning no. So in the US, right where

487
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: you are, there's CALDEC California Donut Economics Coalition, And in fact,

488
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: they were one of the first groups to form when

489
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: we launched Donate Economics. So it's a group of volunteers

490
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: who just joined our community on our platform don't Economics.

491
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: Anyone could just join to be a member with got

492
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: a map, who's nearly Oh look there's fifteen people. Wow, wow,

493
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: let's connect. Or they can post an event saying hi,

494
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: as these guys did, Hi, We're in California, anybody else

495
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: out there? Should we get together online? What do we

496
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: want to do together? So they got together and they

497
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: want to change the narrative about the economy. What is

498
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: a thriving economy in California? To make visible ongoing projects

499
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: because again, like in Amsterdam, there's so much already happening.

500
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: We can weep over what's going wrong in our economies

501
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: and we can point to what's already in motion and

502
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: help piece together those many fragments of a new next economy.

503
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: They're emerging. If we make them visible, we get more

504
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: of a sense of it. And then I'm going to

505
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: jump to another one, which is in North Carolina, So

506
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: the Swanna Noah Watershed. Many of these groups are forming

507
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: around a city or a town or a state, and

508
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: this is one that's formed like a bioregion, formed around

509
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: a watershed, which is profoundly natural. And so they've come together.

510
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: They said, Yeah, working with nature is telling us the boundaries,

511
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: not where some colonial with append or a nice straight line.

512
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: And this is your about no nature saying this is

513
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: a watershed, so this is a coherent ecosystem, right, So

514
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: how do we restore the ecosystem of this place and

515
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: respect the health of the whole planet? Yeah, and how

516
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: do we bring about social justice in this place? They

517
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: are showing through solar projects, through tiny homes, through get

518
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: out the vote, through investing in minority enterprises, moving capital

519
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: to people who have been historically marginalized from it. So

520
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: it's wonderful to see it. It's just starting in the use.

521
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot more have been happening in Europe, and

522
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: I think it's great proof of the power of peers

523
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: per inspiration. So like when Amsterdam began, within six weeks

524
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: Copenhagen City Council said what we want some of that,

525
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: we're going to do that. People are inspired by people

526
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: like themselves. They can see themselves in that story. The

527
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: idea of seeing yourself in the story, and even the

528
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: examples you've shared, you know, we're in a season where

529
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: the story has been about inflation, has been about promises

530
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: of growth and a certain narrow view of what economic

531
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: life looks or feels like. Do you have or have

532
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: people who've picked up this approach, Do they have a

533
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: narrative strategy as well, in terms of working with media

534
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: to tell different economic stories that kind of recognize more

535
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: of our humanity, not just this rational man we're all

536
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: hiding inside and letting drive the vehicles of our lives.

537
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: How important is that work? And have you seen people

538
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: explicitly say we have to talk differently too and journalistically

539
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: cover this differently? So much so those two The first

540
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: one is the growth narrative, and people often say, well,

541
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: can't we growth is good, so can't we just reclaim

542
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: growth and say want something else to grow? And I

543
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: don't agree with that, because I very much agree with

544
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: what you said earlier. In nature, nothing succeeds by trying

545
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: to grow forever. And if within our own bodies something

546
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: tries to grow, we understand that as cancer and we

547
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: go very quiet. So why can't we take from our

548
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: bodily understanding to our human body, to our planetary body

549
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: that same understanding in nature in our children. In the

550
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: plants we grow, things grow, and then they grow up,

551
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: and that's what means they mature. Like I have fourteen

552
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: year old teenagers, right, they're both now taller than me.

553
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: They've been growing two inches a year, and in fact,

554
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: this is the first year they grew slightly less than

555
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: two inches, because they're starting to top Yeah, few, is that?

556
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: Thank you very much? Few? Because if they carried on

557
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: growing two inches a year, like people want the economy

558
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: to grow two percent a year. And by the way,

559
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: that compounds, my kids aren't compounding. They're just two inches,

560
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: they would literally within a decade they could not come

561
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: in my home, literally and metaphorically, they would not belong

562
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: in my home. They could not sit at my table.

563
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: They would be monstrous. So things that we care about

564
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: and love, we want to see them grow. Yes, it's

565
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: a wonderful, healthy phase of life, but then they must

566
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: grow up. So for me, it's really important to reframe

567
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: that and to talk about thriving that is health. But

568
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: can I come back to the other one about who

569
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: we are? Right? So, economics, when it's taught, they say,

570
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: welcome to economics. Here's the plan and demand, here's the market, right,

571
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: and it puts the market in our vision, which means

572
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: we're immediately who we are is consumers or producers, were

573
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: either shopping or working, or shopping or working or shopping

574
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: or working. Right, But then let's think of ourselves in

575
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,959
Speaker 1: relation to not just the market, but in the state.

576
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: And in relation to the state, we may be a

577
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: public servant, a teacher, a doctor, regulator. You may be

578
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: a resident or a citizen, a voter, a protest all

579
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: crucial roles that we can play in relation to the state,

580
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: and we should recognize that we inhabit all of these,

581
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: but just this marketing state. That's the sort of twentieth

582
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: century ideological boxing match of economics, and most economics goes like,

583
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: are you a free market let's say, fair capitalist or

584
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: your state's loving socialist? You commit you right, and it's

585
00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: so boring, and it completely misses two other fundamental ways

586
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: that we provision for our needs and wants. It's not

587
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: just through the market, it's not just through public goods.

588
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: Let's start where we all start every day in the household.

589
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: That's the space of unpaid care. That's where we may

590
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: be a parent, a partner, a relative, a child, caring

591
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: free each other. Our children are parents, sometimes both. This

592
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: is the place of the cooking, washing and cleaning, sweeping,

593
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: raising the kids. And that's traditionally the domain of women,

594
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: and it's traditionally unpaid and underrecognized and overexploited. And so

595
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: we must also name that space the space of care.

596
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: And the fourth one I want to add the commons

597
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: right where we get together, not through the market, not

598
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: through the state, but as a community. We come together

599
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: and we co create goods and services that we value.

600
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: And it might be a neighborhood garden on the corner

601
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: of your block, it might be Wikipedia, it might be

602
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: a singing group, a reading group. And it's not a

603
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: free for all. We follow rules together. There are norms

604
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: of how we behave, and if you don't behave, you'll

605
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: be told off or punished. Or you might even be

606
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: told to leave. So I often show these four forms.

607
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: There's the market and the state, and the household and

608
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: the commons, and I invite people just to describe themselves.

609
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: What have you done today? Oh, I've been a consumer

610
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: because I bought something. I'm a producer here, I am

611
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: at work. I'm a parent and a child actually I

612
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: called my mom. And I've been in the commons because

613
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: I'm going to my singing group tonight. And I've been

614
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: a voter and a resident. Wow, I'm weaving through all

615
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: these identities all the time, So I think it's so

616
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: important to name them and then ask ourselves what kind

617
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: of values and norms underpin each one of those different ways.

618
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: But if the journalism about the economy solely focuses on

619
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: the one quarter of our presence as members of a market,

620
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: that members of a state, not members of a household,

621
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: and members of a commons, then it's actually that complete journalism. Yeah,

622
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: for us as practitioners of just living people, it's kind

623
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: of looked back over the week. Was I good member

624
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: of the commons this week? It was I could remember

625
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: my household this week? And not merely you know, we

626
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: have this end of your tax ritual. But do we

627
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: have an end of your commons ritual? And if your

628
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: state rich or and if your household ritual. So there's

629
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: just there's new practices that emerge in new ways of

630
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: talking and writing, and videograms have to jump in. I

631
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: love the idea that you're like, oh, I've done my

632
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: tax return. Oh but I haven't done my commentary. Yeah,

633
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: but but doing your commons return should be a celebration, right, Yes,

634
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: I need to return to the commons. Right, I did

635
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 1: my tax return, but I'm gonna return to the comments.

636
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah that I'm gonna want like four donut days a year.

637
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: It's a quarterly celebration after the break. Kate Rayworth on

638
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: a time when the donut didn't quite pan out? Are

639
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: there places where donut economics didn't quite work the way

640
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: you'd hoped it would as someone tried to implement some

641
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: piece of it. No one has ever asked me before good. Yeah,

642
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: So what did happen quite early on was a lot

643
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: of businesses so, oh, we would love to be a

644
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: donut business, or we think we are doing a business.

645
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 1: Can we be a don a business? Can we put

646
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: that on a website? And I just thought, whoa, this

647
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: could get greenwashed, very married donut washing. Yeah, donut washing.

648
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: So we actually closed the space for business for a

649
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: long time because we didn't want it to be done

650
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: in a way. We thought, oh, that's not what we

651
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: had in mind, because if it gets donut washed and greenwashed,

652
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: then the concept gets really denigrated for many people. Yeah,

653
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of incentive for a business, as

654
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: we've seen with d EI work, as we've seen with

655
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: climate friendly and carbon zero, net zero sustainable. Yes, of

656
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: an organic to some degree, Yes it's pr but it

657
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: doesn't reflect the practices underneath. So are you still in

658
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: that posture of businesses can't really brand themselves as donut

659
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: businesses or or where are you now? Oh, we're definitely

660
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: in a place that you can't brand yourselves as donut

661
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,479
Speaker 1: business But what we are in and now is we've

662
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: been working with a group of companies over the last

663
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: year and a half and we've created at all and

664
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: we welcome any company to use it internally and explore it.

665
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: So we say, but if you want to talk about

666
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: your business and the donut, please don't come out and

667
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: say you're a donut business. But we invite you to

668
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: tell us. And this is where we focus on the

669
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: deep design of your business because here's the thing. We

670
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: think that in the twenty first century, the most important

671
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: design is not going to be the design of your products.

672
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: I mean that really matters, right, whether it's made from

673
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: regenerative and sustainable materials, whether it's ethical in its supply chain,

674
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: and its payment and care of everybody who was involved

675
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: in making that product. But what really matters beyond the

676
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: design of the products is the design of the business itself.

677
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: So number one, what is its purpose? Why does it

678
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: even exist? What is it in service of in the

679
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: world too? How does it network? So all the relationships

680
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 1: with its employees, it's supplies, customers, its industry, allies in government.

681
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: Does it live out its purpose through its networks or

682
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: are they quite exploitative? Three? How is it governed? Who

683
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: is in the room when decisions are made, who has

684
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: voice in those decisions making? What are the metrics of

685
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 1: success and how a middle managers incentivized? Does it really

686
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: line up? And how does it reflect your purpose? And

687
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: now we're going deeper. So we've gone purpose networks, governors.

688
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: Now we go deep to ownership. How is this company

689
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: owned Is it owned by the employees, by a founding entrepreneur,

690
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 1: by a family for three hundred years. Is it owned

691
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: by venture capital, by shareholders, by the state as a cooperative.

692
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: Because all these different ownership models take us to the

693
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: fifth one, how is it financed? Where is the money

694
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: coming from and what is that money expecting and demanding

695
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: and extracting. How much of the profits are we invested

696
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: in your purpose and how much are taken out for

697
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 1: the owners of the company. Now, if we take these

698
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: five design trates of purpose, networks, governance, ownership, and finance,

699
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: it tells us so much about what any company can

700
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: be and do in the world. You've mentioned tools twice now,

701
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: once with regard to businesses that want to have this

702
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: deep internal design, and another for cities or communities that

703
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: want to roll these out. Do these tools have more

704
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: specific names or places we can find them. I just

705
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: want to make sure that our listeners know where to

706
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: go to find these and so they can start using them. Yes.

707
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: So the tool for cities and places, it's a tool

708
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: called Donut Unrolled and it's on our platform at donut

709
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: economics dot org. Oh, it's that English spelling dug h

710
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: and ut so Donut Economics dot org and then for companies,

711
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 1: it's a new tool called Donut Design for Business, also

712
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,479
Speaker 1: on our platform. So let's imagine a world where we've

713
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: unrolled donuts all across the planet and businesses are more

714
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: deeply and conscientiously designed to allow us to thrive within

715
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: these boundaries. How does the world operate then? And I'm

716
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: thinking of practical things like do we still have a

717
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: stock market? Are credit cards products that we know and

718
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 1: use on a regular basis? Do we have poverty in

719
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: this future? Down that world? There's a three great questions,

720
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: So I'm going to go in reverse order. We don't

721
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: have poverty because by definition, no one is falling short

722
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: on the essentials of life. No one is left in

723
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: that hole. So we have figured out a way to

724
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: provision for the essential needs of everyone. But the other

725
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: thing you said, it's really interesting. You said, I'm going

726
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: to go for some basics like will we be using

727
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: credit cards? And will there be a stock market? You

728
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: kind of put your finger right on it. What does

729
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: this mean for finance? Yeah, finance is designed the moment

730
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 1: with an inbuilt expectation and demand for a return. It's

731
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: designed completely different to everything else on this living planet, which,

732
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: because of the second law of thermodynamics, deteriorates, dies, rots rusts.

733
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: But money, money accumulates undestly, and there's a deep I mean,

734
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: I can't answer your question as a super practical level

735
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: because I don't know, but I can answer it at

736
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: a big existential level. What would mean for money to

737
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: be designed so that it actually worked with the cycles

738
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: of the living world rather than how this utterly opposite

739
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 1: design was expected to accumulate endlessly. And it's a really

740
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: big question, and I wish this is what students in

741
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: business schools and in economics departments were grappling with rather

742
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 1: than just taking well, of course, the design of money

743
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: is this way, and shareholders expectations and needs it that way,

744
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: and so we need businesses that cut those corners to

745
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: meet them. So we need to flip it on its head.

746
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 1: How does money come in service to life rather than

747
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: life serving money? I am very glad you name that.

748
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: It's something that I have conversations about in my own

749
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: house with my partner Elizabeth, who's an EP on this show,

750
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: and a company that wants to do good. But so

751
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: I had to exit to the markets. Is going to

752
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: be pulled in a direction and finance that bottom layer

753
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: that you shared. Even in terms of business design, where

754
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: does the money come from? If we practiced more donut economics,

755
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: how could that help us citizen? How could that support

756
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: small d democracy in ways that help us thrive? Dont

757
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: economics will make us remember every day that I move

758
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: in the market, and in the state, and in the household,

759
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: in the commons. So yeah, maybe a customer and I'm

760
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: a career and a child, and I'm a commoner, and

761
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: I need to develop all the values and skills and

762
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: attributes to do well in all of these So it

763
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: makes me care about these different ways too. So don't

764
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: economics brings us to this question of distributive design. So

765
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: how can we create that rich life of democratic engagement,

766
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: democratic enterprise, and democratic design of the places we live?

767
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: How can we ensure that we invest in the health

768
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: and education opportunity of every person? And donuts help us

769
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: answer those questions. I love it. Thank you. If you

770
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 1: were called on as you were about to be, to

771
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: define citizen as a verb, what would it mean to you?

772
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: How would you define it? I would say be an action.

773
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: You know sometimes people say to me, oh, I love

774
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: your optimism, and I'm like, I didn't say that, And actually,

775
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: don't be an optimist if that makes you relax. Oh

776
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: we've got this sorted. People from ingenious, we're inventive. Stop worrying.

777
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no, it's not going to get sort.

778
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: But also, don't be a pessimist if it makes you

779
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: give up, and it makes you say it's too late,

780
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: and it's too hardware, too many, it's too unequal, it's

781
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 1: too difficult, because by giving up, you'll make it true. Yeah,

782
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: be in action. And to me, when I hear that

783
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: word citizen, I think it calls us into actions. So

784
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: just ask yourself, how do I travel and eat and

785
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: bank and keep my home? And how do I invest

786
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: and diverst and protest and volunteer, and how do I inspire?

787
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: And how do I tell to me? That is how

788
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: to citizen? Right on, Kate Rayworth, You've been fantastic. Thank you.

789
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: It was one thing to watch you do the Ted talk.

790
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: It's another to engage more directly with you. And I'm

791
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: so glad to see how far these ideas have come

792
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: since I saw you share them on that stage, and

793
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: that people are unrolling the doughnut all over the world.

794
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: We're going to shift to our live audience QNA, and

795
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: I've got to start there. You are welcome to the stage,

796
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: brother Wesley, get to see you. Tell us your name,

797
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: where you're at geographically, if you're cool sharing, and go

798
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: ahead and hit us with your comment end or question.

799
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: My name's Wesley Faulkner. I'm currently in Eau Claire, Wisconsin.

800
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: My question is that if we move to a more interconnected, circular,

801
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: multiple beneficiary economy, we're not all altruistic. Some of us

802
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: don't necessarily feel that they need to give as well

803
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: as received, and so they try to hoard. What is

804
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,240
Speaker 1: your enforcement models? And if there is like a rogue

805
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: actor in this web of interconnective economies, how does it

806
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: self heal or how does it repair? Well, that's a

807
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: great question, and the first thing it makes me think

808
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: of Wesley's You know, people always say make sure you

809
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: don't design for your five percent of fears, that you

810
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: design for the ninety five percent of possibility. But you

811
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 1: also have to design to make sure that systems don't

812
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: get co opted or free ridden or abused by that,

813
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: because that will undermine the whole. So it's not about creating,

814
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: for example, businesses and enterprises that are just altruistic and

815
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: always really really nice and doing good. It's about structuring

816
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: them and designing them so that there are boundaries that

817
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: prevent us from giving into that worst attribute. I suppose

818
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: we can design to lock ourselves in, to force ourselves

819
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: to be free, as Jean Jacques Rousseau would say, were

820
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: forced to be free because we've designed out the possibility

821
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: of giving into our weak moment of cashing the whole

822
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: thing in. And I think this is the frontier of

823
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: enterprise design. Like Patagonia, many people know it's no longer

824
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: owned by the founder who could have one day said

825
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: our heck, it's been fun, but I'm just going to

826
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: cash it all in. Now now created steward ownership, where

827
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: now it's held by an organization that locking in the

828
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: mission and ensuring that's how and that's totally separated from

829
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: dividend right. So I think we can design enterprises that

830
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: hold us to the best standards that we wanted to

831
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: hold ourselves into. I'm going to share a question on

832
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,479
Speaker 1: behalf of someone. This is Sarah Hughes, who asks which

833
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: applications of donut economics give you the most cause for hope.

834
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 1: So the number one thing that goes to me cause

835
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: for hope is just that amazing creativity that bubbles up

836
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: the connections. That ingenuity and creativity and persistence of people

837
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: to keep on reimagining. That thrills me. Kate, You've been

838
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: very generous with your answers, your thoughtfulness, and of course

839
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: your time. You're helping liberate us from a pretty narrow existence.

840
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: Very grateful for it. Thanks for playing with us, Thanks

841
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: for dancing with these donuts with us. Really appreciate your time,

842
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: your contributions and helping us citizen. Thank you so much,

843
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: and bring on next National Doughnut Day. Yes, let's do

844
00:46:52,040 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: that one. Let's do that one. I just love how

845
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 1: Kate and the Donut Economics Action Lab are open ended

846
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: in their reproach. They create tools and offer support, but

847
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, they trust the people

848
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 1: on the ground. Remember Adrian Marie Brown in our very

849
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 1: first episode this season, trust the people and they become trustworthy.

850
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: I feel like Kate's doing that. We've been talking this

851
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: season about building a culture of democracy, a dope for it,

852
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: and I don't think we can do that without also

853
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 1: changing the economic environment that creates that culture. So much

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00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: of what we take as day to day is driven

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00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: by economic interests. So let's change those interests. Let's make

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00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: them sweeter. And now it's time for some actions. As always,

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00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: you can find these at how to citizen dot com

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00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: and we've rouped them into three categories. First up, internal reflection.

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00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: Can you live a circular donut life? I want you

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00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: to identify what you truly need to live and then

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00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: what you need to thrive. Do you have those needs

862
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: met right now? What would you do with your time

863
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: and your energy if you didn't feel the need to

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00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: earn and spend more year after year? Next category, become

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00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: more informed. Let's digest some donuts. I want you to

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00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: check out Kate's Ted talk from twenty eighteen, which I

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00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: got to experience live. It's amazing. Also read her book

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00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: Donut Economics, Seven Ways to Think like a twenty first

869
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: century Economist. It's available in our online bookstore at bookshop

870
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: dot org, slash shop slash how to Citizen, and some

871
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: of those proceeds they support local independent bookshops. So we're

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00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: trying to be circular ourselves, all right. Our last category,

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00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: publicly participate. Let's find or start some donuts near us.

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00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: I want us all to go to the Donut Economics

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00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: action Lab community at www dot donut economics dot org.

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00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: That's dug in ut now. They've got all sorts of

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00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: things on this site. A membership map which shows groups

878
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: or networks near you that you can join. For Rust

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00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: in California, it's cal Deck. But you can also do

880
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: other things like read firsthand experiences from people all over

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00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: the world who are putting the donut into practice. If

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00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: you don't see something close to you, start an event

883
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: or an action in your area, put it on the

884
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: map yourself and check out the tools Kate mentioned Donut

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00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: Unrolled and Donut Designed for Business. Will link them in

886
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: the show notes. If you take any of these actions,

887
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,959
Speaker 1: please brag about it online and use the hashtag how

888
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: to Citizen. Also tag our Instagram how do Citizen. I

889
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: am always online and I really do see your messages,

890
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 1: so send them. You can also visit our website howard

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00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: is citizen dot com, which has all of our shows,

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00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,919
Speaker 1: full transcripts, actions, and more. Finally, see this episode show

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00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 1: notes for resources, actions, and more ways to connect. How

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00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: to Citizen with barrettun Day is a production of iHeartRadio

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00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: Podcasts and Row Home Productions. Our executive producers are Me

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00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: barrettun Day Thurston and Elizabeth Stewart. Our lead producer is

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00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: Ali Graham, Our associate producer is Donia abdel Hamid. Alex

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00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: Lewis is our managing producer, and John Myers is our

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00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: executive editor. Our mix engineer is Justin Berger. Original music

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00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: by Andrew Eapen with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions,

901
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: and our audience engagement fellows are Jasmine Lewis and Gabbie Rodriguez.

902
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Joel Smith from iHeartRadio and Leila Biena.

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00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: Next time on how to Citizen Kate's theory of donut

904
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: economics pushes the bounds of our imagination. It asks us

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00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: to play an experiment with new ways of being and

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00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: new ways of relating to each other. Our next guest

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00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: taps into that same energy, but this time in the

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00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: context of technology. We are, in many ways living in

909
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: a eugenics imagination, a techno utopian imagination. We're living in

910
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: imagination not of our own design, and so imaginations can

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00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: be corrupting and limiting. And we don't have to wait

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00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: to be billionaires to be able to create something new.

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Speaker 1: Ruha Benjamin Princeton Professor and founding director of the Ida B.

914
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: Wells Just Data Lab on how justice begins with imagination,

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00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: Row home productions