Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm. Since I began recording Rafel Conviction back
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of xanneries, but unfortunately
Speaker 1: that's just the tip of the criminal injustice Iceberg. So
Speaker 1: I've invited new voices to host the show, including people
Speaker 1: who have personally experienced the horror of that system. This
Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.
Speaker 2: It's July fourth, twenty oh two, and thirty six year
Speaker 2: old Tony Cox is meeting up with Richard Rico, the
Speaker 2: owner of Fat Alberts, a restaurant on the West Side
Speaker 2: of Chicago. They lead the restaurant together. A regal turns
Speaker 2: to lock the door behind him, and that's when he
Speaker 2: hears two gunshots. Tony Cox is shot dead. A regal
Speaker 2: stance at a close distance to the shooters, but he
Speaker 2: doesn't recognize him. As they flee to scene, two women
Speaker 2: witness the crime from their cars. Both of them called
Speaker 2: nine to one to one, and both would later be
Speaker 2: asked identify the shooters from photograph, even though they barely had.
Speaker 3: Time to see them.
Speaker 2: Chicago police officers Gregory Jones, Eugene Schletter, and James Sanchez
Speaker 2: investigated the murder and they believe it had to be
Speaker 2: gang related because Tony Cox was a member of the
Speaker 2: local gang, the New Breeds. At first, they investigated New
Speaker 2: Breed members but made no arrest, but within a month
Speaker 2: of the crime, for reasons they are still unknown, they
Speaker 2: turned their attention to Eric Blackman. On the day of
Speaker 2: the murder, Eric was hosting a barbecue and between twenty
Speaker 2: and forty people saw him there. Two months later, in September,
Speaker 2: Eric showed up at court to deal with the unrelated
Speaker 2: misdemeanor charge, but the police arrested them there on the
Speaker 2: spot as he entered the courthouse. Despite having dozens of
Speaker 2: alibi witnesses and no connection to the victim. Eric Blackman
Speaker 2: was found guilty of murder and Tony Cox on septem
Speaker 2: number twenty seven, twenty oh four. He was since sixty
Speaker 2: years in prison this this wrongful conviction. My name is
Speaker 2: Patrick Persley, also known as Free Patrick Persley. I've been
Speaker 2: a guest on this show to talk about my own
Speaker 2: wrongful conviction, but now I'm here as your guest host.
Speaker 2: In April twenty twenty two, I had the honor of
Speaker 2: sitting down with Eric Blackman to talk about his incredible story. Today,
Speaker 2: I have a very distinguished guest, a friend, a brother
Speaker 2: of fellow Axandery, a very positive person, someone I've known
Speaker 2: for more than a decade. Eric Blackman. How are you today?
Speaker 3: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. I definitely definitely
Speaker 3: appreciate you being here. And we knew each other a
Speaker 3: lot longer than the.
Speaker 2: Decade, at least a decade.
Speaker 3: Yeah out two fifteen to twenty years ago when I really.
Speaker 2: Think we were at Stateville together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, stay here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know you've come a long way and you've
Speaker 2: done a lot. You've really done a lot to save
Speaker 2: your own life. Did you ever face any criticism where
Speaker 2: they say, like your house lord, you know, how gave
Speaker 2: way out with yourself? You never heard that one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the way people think that way, or one
Speaker 3: of the biggest criticisms is people will tell y'all man
Speaker 3: that petition will never work. Oh you know, hey, that'd
Speaker 3: be what you get a lot. Uh sometimes, And I
Speaker 3: heard a lot about the very petition that got me here,
Speaker 3: So I really, you know, you just really got to
Speaker 3: go on with what you research and how you feel
Speaker 3: and what you believe in, and if it's right, you
Speaker 3: just hope that a court ends up seeing it that way.
Speaker 3: You know, country every to what anybody else may say.
Speaker 2: So, where where are you from.
Speaker 3: I'm from the West Side of Chicago. I was born
Speaker 3: and raised there. Yeah. It was it dangerous, very much
Speaker 3: like any other place. It was you know, ripple with gangs, drugs, violence,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. It was you know, it
Speaker 3: was just things that were around. You know, you do
Speaker 3: your best to stay away from it, but it's there
Speaker 3: things that you see every day.
Speaker 2: In Eric's neighborhood. Gang violence and drugs went hand in
Speaker 2: hand with police brutality.
Speaker 3: In our neighborhood. They came up with this what they
Speaker 3: called what was later called the Black Site, which is
Speaker 3: a home and square police station. There was this station
Speaker 3: where people would be disappeared, where you would go and
Speaker 3: you would hear the stories of people riding past, hearing
Speaker 3: screams at night. But it was just a place where
Speaker 3: people where all of your rights was just violated. People
Speaker 3: were just going there and people wouldn't hear from for
Speaker 3: loan periods of time, and people were arrested and healed,
Speaker 3: and it would later revealed that people were you know,
Speaker 3: unconstitutionally held there at that jail.
Speaker 2: Now, people have to remember the setting in Chicago in
Speaker 2: the late nineties. You know, they had record amounts of murders,
Speaker 2: and you have these cadres of police who are basically
Speaker 2: acting outside of the law. People would be amazed the
Speaker 2: level of brutality that's leveled against someone being interrogated who
Speaker 2: is nine out of ten times a young black male.
Speaker 2: A twenty fifteen investigation by the Guardian revealed that the
Speaker 2: Home and Square facility had detained and interrogated more than
Speaker 2: seven thousand people in Chicago since nineteen ninety five, and
Speaker 2: estimated eighty percent of those people were black, and only
Speaker 2: a handful were allowed legal representation.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like, hey, you hear about these things,
Speaker 3: and you know people and you so you know, it's
Speaker 3: very much real. Like the Bookiyman.
Speaker 2: On July fourth, two thousand and two, you have Tony
Speaker 2: Cox in Cook County, Illinois. He shot to death. There's
Speaker 2: witnesses people dropping down the street, at least two or
Speaker 2: three of those. There's someone next door in barbershok two people.
Speaker 2: There's kind of according to the record, it's like this
Speaker 2: strange meet up right, he gets a message like a
Speaker 2: meet in front of fat Alberts or meet at Fat Alberts,
Speaker 2: he meets Richard Rego. I believe they kind of say
Speaker 2: inside the restaurant for about twenty minutes and they're excellent restaurant.
Speaker 2: Two people pop up and shoot Tony Cox Debt. I
Speaker 2: believe that's that's the state's that was the state's case.
Speaker 3: I believe, yeah, that is what they uh ultimately you know,
Speaker 3: presented at court as to being what actually happened that day.
Speaker 2: I know when the shooting happened, there was like a
Speaker 2: handful of witnesses from your record or from like where
Speaker 2: are some things that we're saying about the actual shooter.
Speaker 2: I know they had made nine one one calls.
Speaker 3: Or according to the record, french Line Reese and Lisa
Speaker 3: McDowell were two people who were driving past the crime.
Speaker 3: They both were stopped at this same.
Speaker 2: Light at different viewpoints.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, both one was heading north the other were
Speaker 3: heading south, but they were both you know, on opposite
Speaker 3: sides of the same light. According to Miss Frenshawn Reee,
Speaker 3: the light turned green, she see these people standing up
Speaker 3: half a block in front of her. The light turns
Speaker 3: green and she proceeds up. She sees one of these
Speaker 3: men shoot the other.
Speaker 2: Do you recall, like her identification, what description.
Speaker 3: She gave a description. I can't recall, but it wasn't
Speaker 3: a description that fit me. I believe her description was
Speaker 3: somebody like five, teen thirties, twenties thirties. I was a
Speaker 3: teen then, but it was something that definitely didn't fit me.
Speaker 3: I'm six', FOUR i was a teenager at the. Time
Speaker 3: so you, know it was a very for a crime
Speaker 3: from WHO i am. Now miss McDowell says that she
Speaker 3: was still there and when the crime, happened she heard the,
Speaker 3: shots looked over her and the kids were in the.
Speaker 3: Car she seen this person or somebody two people come
Speaker 3: around the build in and walk up on this man
Speaker 3: that was already on the ground where she's seeing the
Speaker 3: white man who we. Suspected she was saying Mister rego
Speaker 3: had a.
Speaker 2: Gun she actually puts a gun In origo's. Hand, yeah
Speaker 2: that's what she did at her initial statement to the.
Speaker 2: Police sometime later she would go on to change. That
Speaker 2: it really cut a lot of people's eye, because, like
Speaker 2: if what she's saying is, true then Mster frigo was
Speaker 2: not a, witness he was a participant in this.
Speaker 3: Crime you know What i'm. Saying i'm not sure if
Speaker 3: everything that happened or what the actual you, know uh
Speaker 3: relationship with what actually went. On it was a lot
Speaker 3: of questions around what actually happened then who was actually
Speaker 3: involved that?
Speaker 2: Day you know a lot of cases take a lot
Speaker 2: twists and, turns but your case is almost like a
Speaker 2: direct like a direct. Shot like you're at a you're
Speaker 2: hosting a, party, right and you, know like your barbituning
Speaker 2: Is july. Fourth it went out, there, right so you
Speaker 2: got twenty to forty, witnesses right That can you tell
Speaker 2: me about?
Speaker 3: That, well we threw a barbecue on myself and some
Speaker 3: friends AND i over on the block where we normally
Speaker 3: hung and we were out there throughout that. Afternoon uh
Speaker 3: the time that they say this murder happened to, occurred
Speaker 3: we were definitely out. THERE i had a dozen to
Speaker 3: two dozen people that could verify WHERE i.
Speaker 2: Was how how the hell they tie, you, like how
Speaker 2: they drag you?
Speaker 3: In you, KNOW i don't. Know that's SOMETHING i don't
Speaker 3: know to this. Day HOW i ever became a, Suspect
Speaker 3: HOW i had no link to the, gang no. TIES
Speaker 3: i wasn't a part of that gang or any gang
Speaker 3: for that. Matter i'm not, sure and to this day
Speaker 3: that's still the. Question, NO i never had any dealings
Speaker 3: with the victor them or anybody that was allegedly involved
Speaker 3: in this. CRIME i do.
Speaker 2: Nothing so how did they like effectuate the, Rest, like
Speaker 2: how was it the same day or?
Speaker 3: Later, No, SIR i was arrested like months. LATER i
Speaker 3: believe it was like two. MONTHS i got Arrested september
Speaker 3: the fifth of that, year which is exactly like two months.
Speaker 3: Later in between the time of the murder and my actual,
Speaker 3: arrest which was a couple of, MONTHS i had been
Speaker 3: arrested for some type of disorder to conduct of gambling
Speaker 3: or something like. That you, know in our neighborhood the
Speaker 3: police you, know soup you.
Speaker 2: Us, slaughtering, yeah lordman or those type of out here
Speaker 2: on these.
Speaker 3: Blocks and it's not a real big. Infraction it's in
Speaker 3: fraction that you normally go to like a misdemeanor corridor
Speaker 3: or something for and they just threw it. Out normally
Speaker 3: in my, neighborhood it's just the way to ring up.
Speaker 2: Guys it's almost like a.
Speaker 3: Taxation, yeah it's a few quotas type of. Things and there.
Speaker 2: Let everybody, know who's in.
Speaker 3: Charge, yeah basically and The chicago P.
Speaker 2: D you're gonna respect A. Doherty yeah, really that's definitely.
Speaker 3: Know so SO i get one of. Those it was nothing, major,
Speaker 3: up didn't do. Anything so this particular morning of my,
Speaker 3: Rest september the, fourth was the DAY i actually had
Speaker 3: court for this on the. Fence SO i go there
Speaker 3: the same WAY i. Would you have a court, date
Speaker 3: nothing to. Miss WHEN i walk in the, building police are.
Speaker 3: There these aren't the regular. Police these are like the tactical.
Speaker 2: Guys they're waiting on.
Speaker 3: You, yeah they're waiting. There as soon AS i go
Speaker 3: through the metal, detector they act, like, so what's your?
Speaker 3: Name AND i tell them my, name and these officers
Speaker 3: grab me and rough. Me you, know you know how
Speaker 3: they do you know What i'm. Saying so, yeah the.
Speaker 2: Thing, yeah the extra, yeah your hands.
Speaker 3: On, yeah so it's a grab you, up And i'm
Speaker 3: like for what you, KNOW whi y'all grabbing me for
Speaker 3: my attorney's right in the. Courtroom so the whole thing
Speaker 3: was to prevent me from getting a chance to notify my.
Speaker 2: Attorney oh that's something else, too because if they know
Speaker 2: you have, attorney they're not supposed to ask you.
Speaker 3: Nothing, well, right but they knew my attorney was there
Speaker 3: in their. COURTROOM i was going to, court he was.
Speaker 2: There you, know there's usually a very clear path to
Speaker 2: why the police picked. Somebody. Right one of the things
Speaker 2: THAT i hear a lot from people who have not
Speaker 2: lived the life that we have. Lived it's, like come,
Speaker 2: on what they do just pick the name out of a.
Speaker 2: HAT i could never figure out in your, Case, like
Speaker 2: how the hell did they pick? You you, know.
Speaker 3: That's still a mystery to this day for, me just
Speaker 3: as well as my legal team going. FORWARD i can't
Speaker 3: really tell you why they picked me. OUT i don't
Speaker 3: know that. Would that's something that baffles me to this.
Speaker 3: Day even when you aren't guilty and you know you
Speaker 3: haven't done, anything you still question, yourself like why? Me
Speaker 3: why the hell DID? I what COULD i have done?
Speaker 3: Differently you will and to this, day LIKE i questioned
Speaker 3: myself about, THAT i don't know WHAT i could have
Speaker 3: done differently BECAUSE i don't know anything in regards to
Speaker 3: what happened that.
Speaker 4: Day this episode is sponsored by THE Aig Pro Bono.
Speaker 4: PROGRAM aig is a leading global insurance, company and THE
Speaker 4: aig Pro bono program provides free legal, services as well
Speaker 4: as other support to many nonprofit organizations as well as
Speaker 4: individuals who are most in, need and they recently announced
Speaker 4: that working to reform the criminal justice system will become
Speaker 4: a key pillar of the program's.
Speaker 2: Mission the police Arrested eric without him, warrant and they
Speaker 2: took him to the. Station but he has no idea
Speaker 2: what's going. On you can imagine just being dragged away
Speaker 2: from your, family dragged away from your, house and the
Speaker 2: police took their time in telling him what this was all.
Speaker 3: About eventually they tell me That i'm there for. Murder
Speaker 3: the only THING i could tell you is that's like
Speaker 3: the most, earthshaking earth shattering like moment THAT i could tell.
Speaker 3: You you, know it was like you, know hearing the,
Speaker 3: record you, know like, Murder, yeah. MURDER i never been
Speaker 3: nobody accused of nothing remotely like. That, now it's like hold,
Speaker 3: on they tell you, murder and they leave out, again
Speaker 3: and they leave you for a while and then, yeah,
Speaker 3: Yeah then they come back in and they're, like, okay
Speaker 3: you want to tell us what happened, Now AND i
Speaker 3: don't know what, happened And i'm, denying and they steady
Speaker 3: tried to do. It you, know, hey well maybe it
Speaker 3: didn't happen this, Way maybe it happened that. Way we
Speaker 3: know you. Weren't, yeah we know you weren't the. Person
Speaker 3: and those are things that they go, out go, over
Speaker 3: they say and do a lot of different things do
Speaker 3: out those three. Days it really was LIKE i never
Speaker 3: been so broke down and so dejected and so defeated
Speaker 3: in my. Life i'll just say, that like just being
Speaker 3: in that just having people constantly yell and badger you
Speaker 3: and tell you and talk to you like you the,
Speaker 3: lowest thirtiest thing in the world and accused you of
Speaker 3: doing something like so. Horrific you, know it just shoters.
Speaker 3: You it broke. ME i was a nineteen year old.
Speaker 3: KID i never went through nothing like that. BEFORE i
Speaker 3: was just you, KNOW i was. SCARED i was. DEFEATED
Speaker 3: i was. HURT i didn't know and, like, man you
Speaker 3: just don't know what to do in that. Situation you
Speaker 3: a kid in. There, man the stuff that those grown
Speaker 3: men subject kids, too like in, That like you know
Speaker 3: What i'm.
Speaker 2: Saying one of the detectors on this case Was James,
Speaker 2: sanchez and since all this, happened he got promoted to
Speaker 2: commander despite having at least ninety formal complaints and miscind.
Speaker 2: Them so, yeah this is this character right, here he's
Speaker 2: the one actually Interrogating.
Speaker 3: Eric, yeah Mister. Sanchez LIKE i called him out his,
Speaker 3: NAME i cursed at. Him he said something to. ME
Speaker 3: i cursed at, him like, GAME i ask a nice
Speaker 3: one on the, face, yeah just the. Face yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Let you know it means.
Speaker 3: Business, yeah, yeah he got his point. Across, YEAH i
Speaker 3: ain't say that no.
Speaker 2: More after its, interrogation he waited for his trial behind
Speaker 2: bars and cook kinde of jail for two years.
Speaker 3: Being stuck in that. Place it's one of the most, dreadful,
Speaker 3: crepit dilapidated places that you could ever Throw so many
Speaker 3: people in is, rats, roaches, knives, violence, gangs if you name,
Speaker 3: it you get tyrannical police officers or corrections officers that
Speaker 3: would just do what like it was. ROUGH i seen
Speaker 3: people be stabbed if you name, it choke. STRANGLED i
Speaker 3: seen all kinds of things like happened to people. THERE
Speaker 3: i seen one guy like set on. Fire like it's
Speaker 3: some of the things that you wake up to when
Speaker 3: you have nowhere to. Go no whether, run you just,
Speaker 3: stuck you just.
Speaker 2: There so by the time you get the, trial it's
Speaker 2: almost like it's almost like a. Relief what is the states,
Speaker 2: like what's their case in? Chief what do they?
Speaker 3: Present, well we started trial about two years, later and
Speaker 3: the state's whole case in chief was the identifications Of
Speaker 3: miss McDowell And Miss. Reese and that was the only
Speaker 3: Thing i'll never forget. It miss French On rees testified
Speaker 3: to seeing the offender's face for probably four to five.
Speaker 3: Seconds miss McDowell testified to seeing it only for like
Speaker 3: two or.
Speaker 2: Three before, Trial errigan's mother put together list potential alibi
Speaker 2: witnesses that could confirm he was at The fourth Of
Speaker 2: july barbecue and not down At Fat albert's restaurant where
Speaker 2: the crime was.
Speaker 3: Committed my mom made the calls to two people that
Speaker 3: day to ultimately come to my trial and testify and
Speaker 3: my defense with those two alibi. Witnesses two of the
Speaker 3: people from twenty or Forty, yeah that he hadn't even
Speaker 3: spoken to until my trial attorney hadn't even spoken to until.
Speaker 3: That more thing that they showed.
Speaker 2: Up you're waiting for, Trial just for the, record you're
Speaker 2: waiting for trial two years and he hasn't even spoke
Speaker 2: to two, witnesses but a few hours before.
Speaker 3: Trial, yeah according to, them that is the first time
Speaker 3: they ever met or spoke with. Him was like and
Speaker 3: it wasn't even hours he spoke to, them like probably
Speaker 3: for a short period prior to them getting UNDERSTAND i
Speaker 3: kind of felt, like, okay not really, Okay BUT i
Speaker 3: KNOW i got an. ALABIM i KNOW i got a
Speaker 3: bunch of people that know WHERE i would you, KNOW
Speaker 3: i just know that there's a, mistake that this would
Speaker 3: be straightened.
Speaker 2: Out but the, lawyer he he doesn't really follow.
Speaker 3: Up he, didn't the police didn't follow, up the lawyer
Speaker 3: didn't follow. Up at that, POINT i was a. LAYMAN
Speaker 3: i knew nothing about the law going. IN i. Didn't
Speaker 3: it's like you're really learning as you go, along and
Speaker 3: the sad part is you're learning with your. Life.
Speaker 2: Yeah no room for, Error, yeah.
Speaker 3: No room for er.
Speaker 2: Room before his, Trial rick's attorney convinced him to take
Speaker 2: a bench. Trial in a jury, trial you pick your twelve. Jurors,
Speaker 2: however in a bench, trial the judge is the sole trial.
Speaker 2: Fact he's the one who hears the evidence and determines
Speaker 2: guilt or. Innocence so you're putting all your eggs in one.
Speaker 3: Basket he said that in my, situation it was better to.
Speaker 3: Go and he definitely convinced. Me he gave me a
Speaker 3: lot of different reasons and AND i really didn't want to,
Speaker 3: Go LIKE i really didn't want. It but like you a,
Speaker 3: kid it's your first time going through, this who would
Speaker 3: you listen to other than the person that's supposed to
Speaker 3: defend you your.
Speaker 2: Attorney an attorney and his client are in a fiduciary.
Speaker 2: Relationship he's supposed to look out for your best. Interests
Speaker 2: he's supposed to defend you. Zealously in, retrospect as a
Speaker 2: jail house, LAWYER i could tell you taking a bench
Speaker 2: trial is a terrible. Idea it closes out a bunch
Speaker 2: of chances for your appeal to be heard because a
Speaker 2: lot of the issues actually become non issues because the
Speaker 2: judge is presumed to know the. Law But, eric he
Speaker 2: didn't know this at the.
Speaker 3: Time he was just a.
Speaker 2: Kid On september twenty, seventh the judge Found Eric blackman
Speaker 2: guilty of murder and was sentenced to sixty years in.
Speaker 3: Prison i'll never forget my mom was in that courtroom
Speaker 3: and like just the shriek that she let out was
Speaker 3: like Some i'll never forget because we KNOW i hadn't done.
Speaker 3: It everybody knew, it, everybody the whole, neighborhood, everybody the,
Speaker 3: police they even knew even when they were seeing it
Speaker 3: in that, room they knew THAT i hadn't done. It
Speaker 3: they knew. It but they told, me you gonna say
Speaker 3: as to, Jail you're gonna go through all of, this
Speaker 3: and those things played through my. Mind what was gonna
Speaker 3: happen WHEN i got to the, penitentiary my, kids my.
Speaker 3: Family hearing that Guilty verdy was like hand one of the,
Speaker 3: worst if not the worst there of my life. Ever
Speaker 3: just KNOWING i didn't do, it it was hard to
Speaker 3: sleep at. NIGHT i. COULDN'T i COULDN'T i couldn't, REST
Speaker 3: i couldn't, SLEEP i couldn't. EAT i thought about killing
Speaker 3: myself so many, times even tried.
Speaker 2: Once by the TIME i Met, eric he's working hard
Speaker 2: to save his own. LIFE i met him in a
Speaker 2: law library and he was deep deep in the, books
Speaker 2: trying to learn everything he could to get himself out of.
Speaker 2: THERE i think you were the one that told, me
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i used to tell everybody pro say gets no
Speaker 2: play like that's like one of my, things like you represent,
Speaker 2: yourself forget about? It, Right SO i think you were
Speaker 2: the first one told me uh uh. RIGHT i was, like,
Speaker 2: man what you mean IF i ain't got a, lorder
Speaker 2: YOU i ain't getting out of. Jail so you file
Speaker 2: stuff yourself and actually got some type of, rhythm, RIGHT
Speaker 2: i mean not at first, obviously.
Speaker 3: Right so, yeah we went through the process AND i
Speaker 3: went through the direct appeal process the posting process that was.
Speaker 3: Denied both of those were.
Speaker 2: Denied the next step For eric was still pill to
Speaker 2: the federal courts with the rid of habeas, corpus a
Speaker 2: petition that claims you've been in prison on violation of
Speaker 2: your constitutional. Rights it's your first and last federal.
Speaker 3: Pill the only time that the federal courts will ever
Speaker 3: look at a conviction or overturn the conviction is if
Speaker 3: the state courts did not convict you correctly according to federal,
Speaker 3: law THE us constitutional. Law so basically you have to
Speaker 3: find not only that they were, wrong but they have
Speaker 3: to be more than. Wrong they have to be so
Speaker 3: egregious as to where LIKE i, mean it's a high
Speaker 3: bar to. Pass you have.
Speaker 2: To ask the district, judge the guy who smashes you
Speaker 2: in the. Head give me a letter that you did
Speaker 2: me wrong SO i can take it to your.
Speaker 3: Boss, yeah so you asked him to reconsider his. Decision
Speaker 3: if he, doesn't then and you have to find what
Speaker 3: they call a certificate of ap pillability to. Him and
Speaker 3: that's where you have to get him or her to
Speaker 3: say where they were, wrong which they very very rarely
Speaker 3: do we get to the point whether the certificate of
Speaker 3: appillability Is granny AND i get these great attorneys And
Speaker 3: retail And DAVID. P. CROME i appreciate them so much
Speaker 3: because after WHAT i had been through with the first,
Speaker 3: ATTORNEY i gave him. Hell and it wasn't, intentionally it
Speaker 3: was just because Trust, yeah that was my, life that
Speaker 3: had been my baby for so. LONG i finally had got,
Speaker 3: some you, know AND i just couldn't give it, up
Speaker 3: you know What i'm. Saying so you go through it and, like,
Speaker 3: man they were the best attorneys THAT i ever could
Speaker 3: have asked. For those people understood and they loved. Me
Speaker 3: like even WHEN i was an, ass WHEN i was,
Speaker 3: WRONG i had badgered them about what they were going to.
Speaker 3: Argue what you're gonna, say you know What i'm saying like, this.
Speaker 2: No just That i'd like to be told how to
Speaker 2: do their.
Speaker 3: Job hey, LOOK i mean, HEY i was the only
Speaker 3: person that was going to go back and do that
Speaker 3: time at the end of the. Day so to jail
Speaker 3: say hey we get to go. Back we are. Elated
Speaker 3: but another problem presents. ITSELF i had been in jail
Speaker 3: at that point so. Long money is, depleted don't have
Speaker 3: many people around to. Help you have a new, Trial
Speaker 3: you have a new. Case what you're going to? Do
Speaker 3: how do you perceied going? Forward and mister kron he was, like,
Speaker 3: hey we got a few. Options and one of those
Speaker 3: options was we could see if the c W, s
Speaker 3: the CENTERM waw For, convictions will be willing to take your.
Speaker 3: CASE i told, him, yeah you could do whatever you.
Speaker 3: Want BUT i asked them about and they said, NO.
Speaker 2: I had good luck with.
Speaker 3: That. Yeah so you, know we come we have this
Speaker 3: attorney meeting AND i see these the new. Faces i'd
Speaker 3: never seen this one, little, small wildly looked woman like
Speaker 3: she barely stood over the table like and she was, like,
Speaker 3: Hey i'm Caring. Daniels and she was, like, yeah so
Speaker 3: we are going to be here and taking your case
Speaker 3: And we're looking forward to working with. You and the
Speaker 3: first THING i said was when she got, finished was, Like,
Speaker 3: hey but y'all told me no. Before why you tell
Speaker 3: me no? Before and LIKE i was just sitting there
Speaker 3: intently waiting on the, answer and she didn't say. Anything
Speaker 3: she just gave me that mother look and looked at
Speaker 3: the paper and she liid it to. Me AND i
Speaker 3: signed that paper and that was one of the best
Speaker 3: things That i've ever done for my.
Speaker 2: Life and that lawyer Was Karen daniel makes she rest in.
Speaker 2: Peace she was a renowned wrawful convictions attorney who at
Speaker 2: the time was a co director of The center For Wrangful.
Speaker 2: Convictions she and the students she supervised one more than
Speaker 2: twenty exoneration cases during her. Career she was a great,
Speaker 2: woman a real hero who helped me out WHEN i
Speaker 2: was lost in the airport coming From georgia and she
Speaker 2: really didn't even know. Me she died in a tragic
Speaker 2: hit and running car crash in twenty, twenty a lass
Speaker 2: that's felt deeply across the innocence movement.
Speaker 3: Community she liked my second. MOTHER i often tell people
Speaker 3: like that she the one who gave me my second
Speaker 3: birth who gave me my second. Life so to, me, like,
Speaker 3: yeah she was like my mother and she just did so,
Speaker 3: much like in a way for this. Community if she
Speaker 3: didn't work your, case it didn't get you an. Attorney
Speaker 3: she made some precedent that you ultimately ended up, using
Speaker 3: and everybody benefited from.
Speaker 2: Her arrogan's new team of lawyers brought us case to
Speaker 2: THE Us Seventh Circuit court Of. Appeals Judge Ronald guzman
Speaker 2: Granted eric's petition for rid of habeas corpus and was
Speaker 2: let out prison on bond penning of. Retrial actually the
Speaker 2: same DAY i got, OUT i.
Speaker 3: Was living life very barely because you always had the you,
Speaker 3: know imposition that maybe you may go. Back you know
Speaker 3: What i'm. Saying you knew what it was. Like you,
Speaker 3: know it was always hanging. There it's like walking around
Speaker 3: with that black cloud or that am build over your,
Speaker 3: head just waiting for it to, drop and you didn't
Speaker 3: know what it would. Be you. KNOW i know THAT
Speaker 3: i hadn't done, anything BUT i KNEW i hadn't done,
Speaker 3: anything you, know the first. Time AND i believe it's
Speaker 3: the fall case that says even an innocent man still
Speaker 3: faces a fifty to fifty chance if he goes to.
Speaker 3: Trial SO i knew what my chances. WERE i didn't
Speaker 3: want to go back to, jail BUT i knew WHAT
Speaker 3: i had to. Do like we still had that hurd
Speaker 3: her to get. ACROSS i was scared as. HELL i
Speaker 3: wanted to prolonget as long AS i, could but then
Speaker 3: that really wasn't a viable. Thought SO i told my
Speaker 3: attorneys to let's do man. Trial it was six months
Speaker 3: AFTER i got, out and we demand the, trial and,
Speaker 3: uh when it came, time they decided not to. Proceed
Speaker 3: they dropped the.
Speaker 2: Charges then comes to, Celebration, nah.
Speaker 3: Not, really because it was anti. Climactic you think it's
Speaker 3: gonna be overw then you, think, like, hey life is.
Speaker 3: Great you know a lot of us think that that
Speaker 3: would be the end of the, movie Right, Na but
Speaker 3: it's just the. Beginning BECAUSE i heard that thing for
Speaker 3: like more than half of my. LIFE i didn't really
Speaker 3: know like how to live without. It like it was
Speaker 3: a different.
Speaker 2: Era we come home to a different. Area it's a different.
Speaker 3: World yeah it really. Is but then you you, know
Speaker 3: you really just like wake up and you don't have
Speaker 3: to worry about, That you don't have to go through. It.
Speaker 3: Anymore but it's LIKE i don't, KNOW i don't even
Speaker 3: remember the point to WHERE i didn't have to go through.
Speaker 3: It so.
Speaker 2: It's like it becomes our, life, right and it becomes
Speaker 2: almost like which we're defined, by like you were actually
Speaker 2: become a success story just like you start WORKING. Cwc,
Speaker 2: right what is? That like where's the sweet part like
Speaker 2: in your? Work and you know WHAT i, Mean.
Speaker 3: LIKE i tell people like, THIS i guess the great
Speaker 3: sweet spot is that you still get a chance to
Speaker 3: work on trying to ultimately correct the system or not
Speaker 3: allow whatever happened to me to happen to the next.
Speaker 3: Person you, know that's the part that gets up and
Speaker 3: keep me, driving you, know keeps me. Going at the same,
Speaker 3: time it's like going back to visit your tournament to
Speaker 3: over and over and over, again because every time you
Speaker 3: pick up a, case it takes you right back to
Speaker 3: that spot for. You every TIME i go to the,
Speaker 3: court you, know And i'm, Good i'm, great rap, Everything
Speaker 3: but sometimes that same fear creeps back is that first
Speaker 3: day WHEN i was standing in there AND.
Speaker 2: I know it's it's all, consuming it's all. Consuming, Yeah
Speaker 2: SO i mean our day THAT i don't have A stateville.
Speaker 2: Reference there's not a single day THAT i am not back.
Speaker 2: There WHAT i want to ask, you, though is what
Speaker 2: would you invite the, audience how can they help, you
Speaker 2: or something that's near and dear to your heart? Right
Speaker 2: what is your call to?
Speaker 3: ACTION i guess my personal call to action is to keep,
Speaker 3: fighting is to keep on trying to do things to
Speaker 3: make our justice system. BETTER i know people might say
Speaker 3: that we have like a great justice, system BUT i tell,
Speaker 3: people much like Doctor king once said that an injustice
Speaker 3: anywhere is a threat to justice. Everywhere so if one
Speaker 3: person is in jail, wrongfully or if one person is over,
Speaker 3: sentenced then it runs the chance of it happening to
Speaker 3: two and three and four and five and so more
Speaker 3: to where it'll become the. Norm AND i look at
Speaker 3: so many people that are sentenced, today AND i see
Speaker 3: a lot of people over. Sentenced we're punitively punishing people,
Speaker 3: consistently like and WHAT i mean by that, Is, yeah
Speaker 3: people make, mistakes people commit, crimes but do we take their?
Speaker 3: Lives like for every. Infraction we have more people slated
Speaker 3: to die in prison now than at any point in time.
Speaker 3: Before so WHEN i say to, people, yeah you could,
Speaker 3: say somebody committed a crime more or WHATEVER i say to.
Speaker 3: You so what do we do do we take the
Speaker 3: life from and to the people that say, Yeah i'll just, say,
Speaker 3: hey what about that red stop sign that you? Read
Speaker 3: what about that red light you? Read that's not what
Speaker 3: penalty should you? Get you. KNOW i work with a
Speaker 3: lot of different Org so the first thing IS i
Speaker 3: work for The MacArthur Justice, center which is a civil
Speaker 3: entity that sues for people like us and other people
Speaker 3: who you, know face any civil rights. Violation we do
Speaker 3: things like voters, rights prisoner, rights solitary wrongful, convictions wrongful,
Speaker 3: death police, shootings and those type of. Things so these
Speaker 3: are the things THAT i feel are really near and
Speaker 3: dear to me being a chance to write the. SYSTEM
Speaker 3: i also work for The Chicago Torture Justice, center which
Speaker 3: works on basically trying to make sure that all of The,
Speaker 3: birds The John, birds torture, victims you, know get justice
Speaker 3: in their. Cases AND i sit on the board for that.
Speaker 3: END i also sit on the board for another or
Speaker 3: called The Justice Renewal, initiative where we try to give
Speaker 3: jobs to youth that are you, know disadvantaged and targeted
Speaker 3: or you, know return to, citizens and we try best
Speaker 3: to work with youth on that front to ultimately help.
Speaker 2: Them, yeah so they don't talk what we went. Through, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah exactly. Important so we'll have those links to those
Speaker 2: organizations in the. Bile hopefully everyone will check them. Out
Speaker 2: you get to find a word disclosing. ARGUMENTS i, really,
Speaker 2: really really truly want to thank you for let me
Speaker 2: tell your. STORY i really commend you your survive.
Speaker 3: THANKS i Guess i'll take this time to just thank
Speaker 3: the people that helped me to get to this, point
Speaker 3: help me get, freedom help me be sitting here with you.
Speaker 3: ALL i don't think THAT i get a chance to say, that,
Speaker 3: well thank you and just tell those people how much they,
Speaker 3: meant how much every little thing that they ever did help.
Speaker 3: ME i thank all of those, people And i'd just
Speaker 3: like to say thank, you thank, you thank, you thank,
Speaker 3: you thank. YOU i don't THINK i can say it.
Speaker 2: Enough thank you for listening To Wrongful. CONVICTION i like
Speaker 2: to thank our executive Producers Jason flem And Kevin. Wadis
Speaker 2: The senior producer for this episode Is Jackie, polly and
Speaker 2: our producers Are Lyla, Robinson Conner, hall And Jeff. Cliveborne
Speaker 2: our editor Is Roxander gwedy and special thanks To Jillian
Speaker 2: forstad for help on this. Episode the music in this
Speaker 2: production is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph
Speaker 2: be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful, conviction
Speaker 2: On facebook At Wrongful conviction, podcast and On twitter at
Speaker 2: Wrong conviction as well As lava For. Good on all three.
Speaker 2: Platforms you can also follow me On facebook And instagram
Speaker 2: at Free Patrick pursley at Imkit culture two and online
Speaker 2: at imkidculture dot. Org Wrongful conviction is a production Of
Speaker 2: lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company Number.
Speaker 1: One tune in next week for the third and final
Speaker 1: episode Of Wrongful, conviction Where Patrick persley plays the host
Speaker 1: And patrick this time is going to Interview Jarvis ballard
Speaker 1: about their tragic shared. Experience, now both of them are
Speaker 1: innocent men who spent decades behind, bars and in this
Speaker 1: intimate and highly emotional, episode they're going to talk about
Speaker 1: the lies that Landed jarvis in prison and the patterns
Speaker 1: of misconduct at play in so many wrongful conviction, cases
Speaker 1: just like. Theirs, Now patrick Met jarvis the same TIME i,
Speaker 1: did which is that this Year's Innocence network conference In, Phoenix.
Speaker 1: Arizona both of us were immediately taken by this larger
Speaker 1: than life. Character this guy just got out of prison
Speaker 1: after two decades and he's there representing himself in such
Speaker 1: a powerful. Way so these guys bonded. Immediately it was
Speaker 1: an honor for me to be able to facilitate their
Speaker 1: connection and to Have patrick on the mic in my
Speaker 1: chair Interviewing. Jarvis it just means the world to, me
Speaker 1: so tune in listen Next monday in The Wrongful conviction
Speaker 1: podcast feed