Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flam. Since I began recording runfl Conviction back
Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of exoneries, but
Speaker 1: unfortunately that's just the tip of the criminal injustice Iceberg.
Speaker 1: So I've invited new voices to host the show, including
Speaker 1: people who have personally experienced the horror of that system.
Speaker 1: This is one of those interviews. It's July four, two
Speaker 1: and thirty six year old Tony Cox is meeting up
Speaker 1: with Richard Rico, the owner of Fat Albert's, a restaurant
Speaker 1: on the West side of Chicago. They lead the restaurant together.
Speaker 1: A regal turns to lock the door behind them, and
Speaker 1: that's when he here's two gunshots. Tony Cox is shot dead.
Speaker 1: A regal stands at a close distance to the shooters,
Speaker 1: but he doesn't recognize them. As they flee to scene.
Speaker 1: Two women witness the crime from their cars. Both of
Speaker 1: them called nine one one, and both would later be
Speaker 1: asked identified the shooters from photograph as, even though they
Speaker 1: barely had time to see them. Chicago police officers Gregory Jones,
Speaker 1: Eugene Schletter, and James Sanchez investigated the murder and they
Speaker 1: believe it had to be game related because Tony Cox
Speaker 1: was a member of the local gang, the New Breeds.
Speaker 1: At first, they investigated New Breed members but made no arrest,
Speaker 1: but within a month of the crime, for reasons they
Speaker 1: are still unknown, they turned their attention to Eric Blackman.
Speaker 1: On the day of the murder, Eric was hosting a
Speaker 1: barbecue and between twenty and forty people saw him there.
Speaker 1: Two months later, in September, Eric showed up at court
Speaker 1: to deal with the unrelated misdemeanor charge, but the police
Speaker 1: arrested them there on the spot as he entered the courthouse.
Speaker 1: Despite having dozens of alibi witnesses and no connection to
Speaker 1: the victim. Eric Blackman was found guilty of murder and
Speaker 1: Tony Cox on sept Number. He was since the sixty
Speaker 1: years in prison this this wrongful conviction. My name is
Speaker 1: Patrick Pursley, also known as Free Patrick Pursley. I've been
Speaker 1: a guest on this show to talk about my own
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. But now I'm here's your guest host. In April,
Speaker 1: I had to honor of sitting down with Eric Blackman
Speaker 1: to talk about his incredible story. Today, I have a
Speaker 1: very distinguished guest, a friend, a brother of fellow AX honoree,
Speaker 1: a very positive person, someone I've known for more than
Speaker 1: a decade. Um, Eric Blackman, how are you today, I'm
Speaker 1: doing great. Thanks for having me. I definitely definitely appreciate
Speaker 1: you being here. And we knew each other a lot
Speaker 1: longer than the decade, at least at least a decade
Speaker 1: yeah out two fifteen or twenty years ago when I
Speaker 1: really think we would to stay built together. Yeah, stay yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know you've come a long way and you've done
Speaker 1: a lot. You've really done a lot to save your
Speaker 1: own life. Did you ever face any criticism where they say,
Speaker 1: like you jail house lord, you know how ge everybody
Speaker 1: out with yourself? You never heard that one. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: the way people think that way or one of the
Speaker 1: biggest criticisms as people would tell y'all man that petition
Speaker 1: will never worked, you know, a that'd be what you
Speaker 1: get a lot, uh sometimes, And I heard a lot
Speaker 1: about the very petition that got me here. So I really,
Speaker 1: you know, you just really got to go on with
Speaker 1: what you research, how you feel, and what you believe in,
Speaker 1: and if it's right, you just hope that the court
Speaker 1: ends up seeing it that way, you know, Country every
Speaker 1: to what anybody else may say. So, where where are
Speaker 1: you from? Um, I'm from the West Side of Chicago.
Speaker 1: I was born and raised there. Yeah, it was dangerous,
Speaker 1: very much like any other place. It was um, you know,
Speaker 1: ripple with gangs, drugs, violence, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: It was you know, it was just things that were around.
Speaker 1: You know, you do your best to stay away from it,
Speaker 1: but it's there, things that you see every day. And
Speaker 1: Eric's neighborhood, gang violence and drugs went hand in hand
Speaker 1: with police brutality in our neighborhood. They came up with
Speaker 1: this what they called what was later called the Black Site,
Speaker 1: which is Home and Square police station. There was the
Speaker 1: station where people would be disappeared, where you would go
Speaker 1: and you would hear the stories of people riding past
Speaker 1: here and screams at night. But it was just the
Speaker 1: place where people where all of your rights was just violated.
Speaker 1: People were just going there and people wouldn't hear from
Speaker 1: for loan periods of time, and people were arrested and
Speaker 1: held and it was later revealed that people were you know,
Speaker 1: unconstitutionally held there at jail. Now, people have to remember
Speaker 1: the setting in Chicago and the late nineties. You know,
Speaker 1: they had record amounts of murder, and you have these
Speaker 1: cadres of police who are basically acting outside of the law.
Speaker 1: People would be amazed the level of brutality that's leveled
Speaker 1: against someone being interrogated who was non outton Times, a
Speaker 1: young black male. A twenty fifteen investigation by the Guardian
Speaker 1: revealed that the Home and Square facility had detained and
Speaker 1: interrogated more than seven thousand people in Chicago since n
Speaker 1: and estimated those people were black, and only a handful
Speaker 1: were allowed legal representation. You know, it's like, hey, you
Speaker 1: hear about these things and you know people and you
Speaker 1: so you know, it's very much real. Like the Bookieyman
Speaker 1: on July four, two thousand two, you have Tony Cox
Speaker 1: and Cook County, Illinois. Um, he's shot to death. Um
Speaker 1: there's witnesses, people dropping down street, at least two or
Speaker 1: three of those. There's someone next door and barbershock to people.
Speaker 1: Um there's kind of according to the record, it's like
Speaker 1: this strange meet up, right, he gets a message like
Speaker 1: meet in front of fat Albert's or meet at fat Albert's.
Speaker 1: He meets Richard Rego. I believe they kind of stay
Speaker 1: inside the restaurant for about twenty minutes and um, they're
Speaker 1: excellent restaurant. Two people pop up and shoot, um Tony
Speaker 1: Cocks dead. I believe that's that's the states that was
Speaker 1: the state's case. I believe that is what they ultimately
Speaker 1: you know, presented at court as to being what actually
Speaker 1: happened that I know when the shooting happened, there was
Speaker 1: like a handful of witnesses from your record or from
Speaker 1: like where some things that we're saying about the actual shooter.
Speaker 1: I know they have made nine one one calls or
Speaker 1: according to the record, French and Reese and Lisa McDowell were, uh,
Speaker 1: two people who were driving past the crime. They both
Speaker 1: were stopped at this um same light. Uh at a
Speaker 1: different viewpoints. Yeah yeah, both one was heading north, the
Speaker 1: other way head and south. But they were both that
Speaker 1: you know, on opposite sides of the same light. According
Speaker 1: to Miss Frenshawn Reese, the light turned green, she see
Speaker 1: these people standing up half a block in front of her.
Speaker 1: The light turns green and she proceeds up. She sees
Speaker 1: one of these men shoot the other. Um you recall
Speaker 1: like her identification, like description. She gave a description I
Speaker 1: can't recall, but it wasn't a description that fit me.
Speaker 1: I believe the description with somebody like five teen thirties, twenties, thirties.
Speaker 1: I was a team then, but it was something that
Speaker 1: definitely didn't fit me. I'm six four, um, I was
Speaker 1: a teenager at the time, so you know, it was
Speaker 1: a very far cry from who I am now. Miss
Speaker 1: McDowell says that she was still there and when the
Speaker 1: crime happened, she heard the shots, looked over her and
Speaker 1: the kids within the car. She's seen this person or
Speaker 1: somebody two people come around the build and and walk
Speaker 1: up on this man that was already on the ground
Speaker 1: where she's seen the white man who we suspected. She
Speaker 1: was saying, Mr Reego, he had a gun. She actually
Speaker 1: puts a gun in a Riggle's hand. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: she did. Uh. At her initial statement to the police,
Speaker 1: sometime later she would go on to change that. It
Speaker 1: really cut a lot of people because like, if what
Speaker 1: she's saying is true, then Mr Frego was not a witness.
Speaker 1: He was a participant in this crime. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm not sure if everything that happened or
Speaker 1: what the actual you know, uh relationship or what actually
Speaker 1: went on. It was a lot of questions around what
Speaker 1: actually happened then who was actually involved that day? You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of cases take a lot twis returns, and
Speaker 1: but your case is almost like a direct like a
Speaker 1: direct shot. Like you're at a you're hosting a party, right,
Speaker 1: and you know, like your barbecue July fourth, every one
Speaker 1: out there, right, So you got forty witnesses, right, Can
Speaker 1: you tell me about that? Well, Um, we threw a
Speaker 1: barbecue on myself and some friends and I um over
Speaker 1: on the block where we normally hung and we were
Speaker 1: out there, um throughout that afternoon the time that they
Speaker 1: say this murder happened to occur, we were definitely out there.
Speaker 1: I heard a dozen to two dozen people that could
Speaker 1: verify where I was. How do how the hell they
Speaker 1: tie you like, how they drag you in? You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's something I don't know to this day.
Speaker 1: How I ever became a suspect. How I had no
Speaker 1: link to the game, No ties, wasn't a part of
Speaker 1: that gang or any gang for that matter. Uh, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure until this day, that's still the question. No,
Speaker 1: I never heard any dealings with the VIC them or
Speaker 1: anybody that was alleginally involved in this crime. I do nothing.
Speaker 1: So how did they like effectuate the rest? Like, how
Speaker 1: was it the same day or later? Um? No, sir,
Speaker 1: I was arrested like months later. I believe it was
Speaker 1: like two months. I got arrested September the five of
Speaker 1: that year, which is exactly like two months later. In
Speaker 1: between the time of the murder and my actual arrest,
Speaker 1: which was a couple of months, I had been arrested
Speaker 1: for uh some type of disorderly conduct of gambling or
Speaker 1: something like that. You know in our neighborhood the police
Speaker 1: you know, sup you yeah, lord or those type of
Speaker 1: and it's not a real big infraction. It's infraction that
Speaker 1: you normally go to like uh, misdemeanor cord or something
Speaker 1: for and they just threw it out normally in my neighborhood.
Speaker 1: It's just the way to ring up guys. It's almost
Speaker 1: like a taxation. Yeah, it's a feel quotas type of things.
Speaker 1: Everybody know who's in charge. Yeah, basically, and with Chicago
Speaker 1: p D, you're gonna respect the authority. Yeah. Really that's
Speaker 1: definitely so. Um So I get one of those. It
Speaker 1: was nothing major didn't do anything. So this particular morning,
Speaker 1: if my arrest Sepamber the fourth was the day I
Speaker 1: actually had court for this on offense. So I go
Speaker 1: there the same way, I will, you have a court date,
Speaker 1: nothing amiss, and I walk into build if police are there.
Speaker 1: These aren't the regular police. These are like the tactical guys.
Speaker 1: They're waiting on you. Yeah, they're waiting there. As soon
Speaker 1: as I go through the metal detector, they acts like, so,
Speaker 1: what's your name? And I tell them my name and
Speaker 1: these officers grabbed me rough me you know, you know
Speaker 1: how they do. You know what I'm saying, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's to grab you up, and I'm like for what,
Speaker 1: you know what y're grabbing me for. My attorney's right
Speaker 1: in the courtroom. So the whole thing was to prevent
Speaker 1: me from getting a chance to notify my attorney. That's
Speaker 1: that's That's something else too, because if they know you
Speaker 1: have attorney, they're not supposed to ask you nothing. Well, right,
Speaker 1: but they know my attorney was there in their courtroom. Um,
Speaker 1: I was going to court. He was there. You know.
Speaker 1: There's usually um a very clear path to why the
Speaker 1: police pick somebody, right, one of the things that I
Speaker 1: hear a lot from people who have not lived the
Speaker 1: um life that we have lived. It's like, come on,
Speaker 1: what they do? Just picked the name out of the hat.
Speaker 1: I could never figure out in your case, Like how
Speaker 1: how the hell did they pick you? You know, Um,
Speaker 1: that's still a mystery to this day for me, just
Speaker 1: as well as my legal team going forward. I can't
Speaker 1: really tell you why they picked me out. I don't
Speaker 1: know that would. That's something that baffles me to this day.
Speaker 1: Even when you aren't guilty and you know you haven't
Speaker 1: done anything, you still question yourself, like why me? Why
Speaker 1: the hell did I? What could I have done differently?
Speaker 1: You all like? And to this day, like I questioned
Speaker 1: myself about that. I don't know what I could have
Speaker 1: done differently because I don't know anything in regards to
Speaker 1: what happened that day. This episode is sponsored by the
Speaker 1: a I G pro Bono Program. Hey I G is
Speaker 1: a leading global insurance company, and the ai G pro
Speaker 1: Bono Program provides free legal services as well as other
Speaker 1: support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals who
Speaker 1: are most in need, and they recently announced that working
Speaker 1: to reform the criminal justice system will become a key
Speaker 1: pillar of the program's mission. The police arrested Eric without
Speaker 1: him warrant, and they took him to the station, but
Speaker 1: he has no idea what's going on. You got machine,
Speaker 1: just being dragged away from your family, dragged away from
Speaker 1: your house, and the police took their time and telling
Speaker 1: him what this was all about. Eventually they tell me
Speaker 1: that I'm there for murder. The only thing I could
Speaker 1: tell you is that's like the most earth shaking, earth
Speaker 1: shattering like moment that I could tell you. You know,
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, hearing the record, you know,
Speaker 1: stop like murder, Yeah, murder. I've never been nobody accused
Speaker 1: of nothing remotely like that. Now. It was like, hold on,
Speaker 1: they tell you murder, and they leave out again, and
Speaker 1: they leave you for a while and then they yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Then they come back in and they're like, okay, you
Speaker 1: want to tell us what happened now, and I don't
Speaker 1: know what happened, and I'm denying, and they steady trying
Speaker 1: to do it. You know, uh, hey, well maybe it
Speaker 1: didn't happen this way, Maybe it happened that way. You want, yeah,
Speaker 1: we know you weren't the person. And those are things
Speaker 1: that they go out go over, they say, and do
Speaker 1: a lot of different things to out those three days.
Speaker 1: It really was like I've never been so broke down
Speaker 1: and so dejected and so defeated in my life. I'll
Speaker 1: just say that, like just being in that just having
Speaker 1: people because oftly yelled and badger you and tell you
Speaker 1: and talk to you like you the lowest, dirtiest thing
Speaker 1: in the world and accused you of doing something like
Speaker 1: so horrific. You know, it just shouted you. It broke me.
Speaker 1: I was a nineteen year old kid. I never went
Speaker 1: through nothing like that before. I was just you know,
Speaker 1: I was scared, I was defeated. I was hurt. I
Speaker 1: didn't know and like, man, you just don't know what
Speaker 1: to do in that situation. And you were a kid
Speaker 1: in there. Man, the stuff that those grown man subject
Speaker 1: kids to like in that, Like you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: One of the detectives on this case was James Sanchez,
Speaker 1: and since all this happened, he got promoted to commander
Speaker 1: despite having at least ninety formal complaints of miscond ed
Speaker 1: up against him. So, yeah, this is this character right here,
Speaker 1: He's the one actually interrogating eric Um. Yeah. Mr Sanche
Speaker 1: is like I called him out his name. I cursed
Speaker 1: at him. He said something to me. I cursed at him,
Speaker 1: like game, I asks a nice one to face Yeah,
Speaker 1: just to the face. Yeah, yeah, you know what it it
Speaker 1: means business. Yeah yeah, I got his point of cross.
Speaker 1: I didn't say that no more. After his interrogation. He
Speaker 1: waited for his trial behind bars and Cookaine Jail for
Speaker 1: two years, being stuck in that place. It's one of
Speaker 1: the most dreadful, crepit, dilapidated places that you could ever
Speaker 1: throw so many people in is rats, roaches, knives, violence, gangs,
Speaker 1: if you name it, you get tyrannical police officers or
Speaker 1: corrections officers that which is do what that like? It
Speaker 1: was rough. I've seen people be stabbed if you name it, choked, strangled,
Speaker 1: I've seen all kinds of things like happened to people
Speaker 1: that I've seen one guy like set on fire. Like
Speaker 1: it's some of the things that you wake up to
Speaker 1: when you have nowhere to go, no where to room.
Speaker 1: You're just stuck. You're just there. So by the time
Speaker 1: you get the trial, it's almost like it's almost like
Speaker 1: a relief. What is the States, like, what's their case
Speaker 1: in chief? What do they present where we started trial
Speaker 1: about two years later, and the state's whole case in
Speaker 1: chief was the identifications of Ms McDowell and Ms Reese,
Speaker 1: And that was the only thing, Um, I never forget it.
Speaker 1: Miss French and Reese testified to seeing their offend his
Speaker 1: face for property four to five seconds. Miss mcdown testified
Speaker 1: to seeing it only for like two or three. Before trial,
Speaker 1: American's mother put together a list a potential alibi witnesses
Speaker 1: that could confirm he was at the Fourth of July
Speaker 1: barbecue and not down at Fat Albert's restaurant where the
Speaker 1: crime was committed. My mom made the calls to two
Speaker 1: people that day, uh to ultimately come to my trial
Speaker 1: and testify and my defense with those two alibi witnesses,
Speaker 1: two of the people from hard On forty. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: he hadn't even spoken to until my trial attorney hadn't
Speaker 1: even spoken to until that. More than that, they showed
Speaker 1: up waiting for trial. Just for the record, you're waiting
Speaker 1: for trial two years and he hasn't even spoke to
Speaker 1: two witnesses but a few hours before trial. Yeah. According
Speaker 1: to them, that the first time they ever met or
Speaker 1: spoke with him was like and it wasn't even hours
Speaker 1: he spoke to them, like probably for a short period
Speaker 1: prior to them getting understand I kind of felt like okay, um,
Speaker 1: not really okay, But I know I got an Alabam.
Speaker 1: I know I had a bunch of people that know
Speaker 1: where I would. You know, I just know that there's
Speaker 1: a mistake, that this would be straightened out. But the lawyer,
Speaker 1: he he doesn't really follow up. He didn't, the police
Speaker 1: didn't follow up, the lawyer didn't follow up. At that point,
Speaker 1: I was a layman. I knew nothing about the law
Speaker 1: going in. I didn't. It's like you're really learning as
Speaker 1: you go alone, and to say a part, as you're
Speaker 1: learning with your life. No room forever, Yeah, no room forever.
Speaker 1: Before his trial, Eric's attorney convinced him to take a
Speaker 1: bench trial. In a jury trial, you pick your twelve jurors. However,
Speaker 1: in a bench trial, the judge is the sole trial fact.
Speaker 1: He's the one who hears the evidence and determines guilt
Speaker 1: or innocence. So you're putting all your eggs in one basket.
Speaker 1: He said that in my situation, it was a better
Speaker 1: to go. When he definitely convinced me, he gave me
Speaker 1: a lot of different reasons, and like, and I really
Speaker 1: didn't want to go, Like I really didn't want it.
Speaker 1: But you're a kid, it's your first aimeple, do understand
Speaker 1: who would you listen to other than the person that's
Speaker 1: supposed to defend you your attorney. An attorney and his
Speaker 1: client are in a fidciary relationship. He's supposed to look
Speaker 1: out for your best interests. He's supposed to defend you zealously.
Speaker 1: In retrospect, as a jail house lawyer, I could tell
Speaker 1: you take a bench trial is a terrible idea. It
Speaker 1: closes out a bunch of chances for your appeal to
Speaker 1: be heard because a lot of the issues actually become
Speaker 1: non issues because the judges presumed to know the law.
Speaker 1: But Eric, he didn't know this at the time. He
Speaker 1: was just a kid. On September twenty seven, the judge
Speaker 1: found Eric Blackman guilty of murder and was sinced to
Speaker 1: sixty years in prison. I never forget my mom list
Speaker 1: in that courtroom and like as a shriek that she
Speaker 1: let out was like, M That's something I'll never forget
Speaker 1: because we know I hadn't done it. Everybody knew it.
Speaker 1: Everybody the whole neighborhood, everybody, the police. They even knew
Speaker 1: even when they were saying it in that room, they
Speaker 1: knew that I hadn't done They knew it, but they
Speaker 1: told me say it well, asked the jail, you're gonna
Speaker 1: go through all of this, and those things played through
Speaker 1: my mind. What was gonna happen when I got to
Speaker 1: the penitentiary, my kids, my family. Hearing that guilty verdict
Speaker 1: was like, ain't gonna hand and he wanted the worst,
Speaker 1: if not the worst day of my life ever, just
Speaker 1: no one. I didn't do it. It was hard to
Speaker 1: sleep at night. I couldn't I couldn't I come rest,
Speaker 1: I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. I thought about killing
Speaker 1: myself so many times, even tried once. By the time
Speaker 1: I met Eric, he's working hard to save his own life.
Speaker 1: I met him in the law library and he was
Speaker 1: deep deep into books, trying to learn everything he could
Speaker 1: to get himself out of there. I think you were
Speaker 1: the one that told me, because I used to everybody
Speaker 1: pro say, gets no play, like that's like one of
Speaker 1: my things, Like you represent yourself, forget about it, right,
Speaker 1: So you I think you were the first one told
Speaker 1: me us. Like, man, it's like, what you mean, Uh,
Speaker 1: If I ain't got a little you ain't getting out jail.
Speaker 1: So you file stuff yourself and actually got some type
Speaker 1: of rhythm, right, I mean not at first obviously, right.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we went through UM the process, and I
Speaker 1: went through UM the direct impure process, the posting action
Speaker 1: process that was denied. Both of those were denied. The
Speaker 1: next step for Eric was still pealed to the federal
Speaker 1: courts with the rid of Habiest Corpus, a petition that
Speaker 1: claims you've been in prison and violation of your constitutional rights.
Speaker 1: It's your first and last federal pell The only time
Speaker 1: that the federal courts will ever look at a conviction
Speaker 1: or overturned the conviction is if the state courts did
Speaker 1: not convict you correctly according to federal law, the US
Speaker 1: constitutional law. So basically you have to find not only
Speaker 1: that they were wrong, but they have to be more
Speaker 1: than wrong. They had to be so agreed just as
Speaker 1: to where like I mean, it's a high bar to pass.
Speaker 1: You have to ask the district judge, the guy who
Speaker 1: smashes you in the head, give me a letter that
Speaker 1: you did me wrong, so I can take it to
Speaker 1: your boss. Yeah, so you asked him to reconsider his decision.
Speaker 1: If he doesn't, then and you have to find what
Speaker 1: they call a certificate of appallability to him. And that's
Speaker 1: where you have to get him or heard to say
Speaker 1: where they were wrong, which they very very rarely do.
Speaker 1: We get to the point where the certificate of appellability
Speaker 1: is Granny and I get these great attorneys and re
Speaker 1: Dale and David p Chrome. I appreciate them so much
Speaker 1: because after what I had been through with the first attorney,
Speaker 1: I gave them hell. And it wasn't intentionally, it was
Speaker 1: just because trust yeah, that was my life. I had
Speaker 1: been my baby for so long. I finally had got
Speaker 1: some you know, and I just couldn't give it up,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So you go through it
Speaker 1: and like, man, they were the best attorneys that I
Speaker 1: ever could have asked for. Those people understood and they
Speaker 1: love me. Like even when I was an asked when
Speaker 1: I was wrong, I had badgered them about what they
Speaker 1: were going to argue. What you're gonna say? You no
Speaker 1: saying like this, No, I just I'd like to be
Speaker 1: told how good hey look mhm, I mean hey, I
Speaker 1: was the only person that's gonna go back and do
Speaker 1: that time at the end of the day. So the
Speaker 1: jail say, hey, we get to go back. We're elated.
Speaker 1: But another problem presents itself. I have been in jail
Speaker 1: at that point so long. Money is depleted, don't have
Speaker 1: many people around the help. Um, you have a new trial,
Speaker 1: you have a new case. What you're gonna do? How
Speaker 1: do you proceed going forward? And uh, Mr Krone he
Speaker 1: was like, hey, we got a few options. And one
Speaker 1: of those options was we could see if the c
Speaker 1: w C, the Center Role for Convictions, will be willing
Speaker 1: to take your case. I tell him, yeah, you could
Speaker 1: do whatever you want. But I asked him and they
Speaker 1: see it. No good luck with that. Yeah, so you know,
Speaker 1: we come we have this attorney meeting and I see
Speaker 1: these the new faces I've never seen this were a
Speaker 1: little small, wildly looked woman like she barely stood over
Speaker 1: the table like. And she was like, hey, I'm caring Daniels.
Speaker 1: And she was like, yes, we're gonna be here and
Speaker 1: taking your case and we're looking forth working with you.
Speaker 1: And the first thing I said was when she got finished,
Speaker 1: was like, hey, but y'all told me no before. Why
Speaker 1: are you telling me no before, and like I was
Speaker 1: just sitting there intently waiting on the answer, and she
Speaker 1: didn't say anything. She just gave me that mother look
Speaker 1: and looked at the paper and leave it to me.
Speaker 1: And I signed that paper and that was one of
Speaker 1: the best things that I've ever done for my life.
Speaker 1: And that lawyer was Karen Daniel made she rest in peace.
Speaker 1: She was a renowned wrawful convictions attorney who at the
Speaker 1: time was a co director of the Center for wrang
Speaker 1: for Convictions. She and the students she supervised one more
Speaker 1: than twenty exoneration cases during her career. She was a
Speaker 1: great woman, a real hero who helped me out when
Speaker 1: I was lost in the airport come from Georgia and
Speaker 1: she really didn't even know me. She died in a
Speaker 1: tragic hit and running car crash, in a loss that's
Speaker 1: felt deeply across the innocence movement community. She liked my
Speaker 1: second mother. I often tell people like that, Uh, she
Speaker 1: the one who gave me my second birth, who gave
Speaker 1: me my second life. So to me, like, yeah, she
Speaker 1: was like my mother. And she just did so much
Speaker 1: like in a way for this community. If she didn't
Speaker 1: work your case, that didn't get you an attorney. She
Speaker 1: made some precedent that you ultimately ended up using, and
Speaker 1: everybody benefited from arrogance. New team of lawyers brought his
Speaker 1: case to US Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. Judge Ronald
Speaker 1: Guzman granted Eric's petition for the habeas corpus, and he
Speaker 1: was let our prison on bond penning of re trial.
Speaker 1: Actually the same day I got out. I was living
Speaker 1: life very barely because you always heard, you know, in
Speaker 1: position that maybe you may go back. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. You knew what it was like. You know,
Speaker 1: it was always hanking there. It's like walking around with
Speaker 1: that black cloud of that am build over your head,
Speaker 1: just waiting for it to drop, and you didn't know
Speaker 1: what it would be. You know, I know that I
Speaker 1: hadn't done anything, but I know I hadn't done anything,
Speaker 1: you know, the first time. And um, I believe it's
Speaker 1: the fall case that says even the innocent man still
Speaker 1: faces a fifty fifty chance if he goes to trial.
Speaker 1: So I knew what my chances were. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to go back to jail, um, but I knew what
Speaker 1: I had to do. Like we still here that heard
Speaker 1: her to get across. I was scared as hell and
Speaker 1: I wanted to prolonge as long as I could, But
Speaker 1: then that really wasn't a viable thought. So I told
Speaker 1: my attorneys to let's man trial. It was six months
Speaker 1: after I got out, and we demanded trial, and uh,
Speaker 1: when he came time, they decided not to proceed. They
Speaker 1: dropped the charges. Then comes to celebration, No, not really,
Speaker 1: because it was anti climactic. You think it's gonna be
Speaker 1: over with. Then you think, like, hey, life is great.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of us think that that would
Speaker 1: be the end of the movie, right, Na, But it's
Speaker 1: just the beginning. Because I hear that thing for like
Speaker 1: more than half of my life. I didn't really know
Speaker 1: like how to live without it, Like it was a
Speaker 1: different era. We come home to a different it's a
Speaker 1: different world, Yeah it really is. But then you you know,
Speaker 1: you really just like wake up and you don't have
Speaker 1: to worry about that, you don't have to go through
Speaker 1: it anymore. But it's like, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: even remember the point to where I didn't have to
Speaker 1: go through it. So it's like it becomes our life
Speaker 1: and it becomes almost like which we're defined by like
Speaker 1: you're actually become a success story and just like you
Speaker 1: start working c w C. Right, what is that like?
Speaker 1: Where is the sweet part like in your work? And
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like I tell people like this, Um,
Speaker 1: I guess the great sweet spot is that you still
Speaker 1: get a chance to work on trying to ultimately correct
Speaker 1: the system or not allow whatever happened to me that
Speaker 1: happened to the next person. You know, that's the part
Speaker 1: that gets up and keep me driving, you know, keeps
Speaker 1: me going. At the same time, it's like going back
Speaker 1: to visit your tornment to over and over and over again,
Speaker 1: because every time you pick up a case, it takes
Speaker 1: you right back to that spot for you. Every time
Speaker 1: I go to the court, you know, and I'm good,
Speaker 1: I'm great, arap everything, But sometimes the same fear creeps
Speaker 1: back is that first day when I was standing in
Speaker 1: there and it's all consuming. It's all consuming. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I mean that I don't have a state Ville reference.
Speaker 1: There's not a single day that I am not back there.
Speaker 1: What I want to ask you, though, is what would
Speaker 1: you invite the audience, how can they help you or
Speaker 1: something that's near and dear to your heart right, your
Speaker 1: what is your call to action? I guess my personal
Speaker 1: call to action is to keep fighting, is to keep
Speaker 1: on trying to do things to make our justice system better.
Speaker 1: I know people might say that we have like a
Speaker 1: great justice system, but I tell people, much like a
Speaker 1: doctor King want to say that an injustice anywhere as
Speaker 1: a threat to justice everywhere. So if one person is
Speaker 1: in jail wrongfully, or if one person is over sentence,
Speaker 1: the end of run is the it runs the chance
Speaker 1: of it happening to two and three and four and
Speaker 1: five and so more to where it will become the norm.
Speaker 1: And I look at so many people that I sentenced today,
Speaker 1: and I see a lot of people over sentence. We're
Speaker 1: punitively punishing people consistently, like and what I mean by
Speaker 1: that is, yeah, people make mistakes, people commit crimes, but
Speaker 1: do we take their lives? Like for every infraction. We
Speaker 1: have more people slated to die in prison now than
Speaker 1: at any point in time before. So when I would
Speaker 1: say the people, yeah, you could say somebody committed a
Speaker 1: crime more or whatever I say to you, So what
Speaker 1: do we do do we take the life from And
Speaker 1: to the people that say yeah, I'll just say, hey,
Speaker 1: what about that real stop signing that you ran? What
Speaker 1: about that real light you ran? What penalty should you get?
Speaker 1: You know? I work with a lot of different orgs.
Speaker 1: So the first thing is I work for them in
Speaker 1: carth that Justice Center, which is to a civil entity
Speaker 1: that suits for people like us and other people who
Speaker 1: you know, uh, face any civil rights violation. We do
Speaker 1: things like voters rights, prisoner rights, solitary um, wrong for convictions,
Speaker 1: wrong for death, police shooting, and those type of things.
Speaker 1: So these are the things that I feel are really
Speaker 1: near and dear to me being a chance to write
Speaker 1: the system. I also work for the Chicago Torture Justice Center,
Speaker 1: which works on uh basically trying to make sure that
Speaker 1: all of the bird the John Birds torture victims, you know,
Speaker 1: get justice in their cases. And I sit on the
Speaker 1: board for that. And I also sitting on the board
Speaker 1: for another or called the Justice Renewal Initiative, where we
Speaker 1: try to give jobs to youth that are you know, uh,
Speaker 1: disadvantaged and targeted or you know, return the citizens and
Speaker 1: we try best to work with youth um on that
Speaker 1: front to ultimately help them. Yeah, so they don't we
Speaker 1: went through yeah, exactly important. So we'll have those links
Speaker 1: to those organizations in the bio, hopefully everyone will check
Speaker 1: them out. UM, you get to find a word this
Speaker 1: closing arguments, I really really, really truly want thank you
Speaker 1: for UM let me tell your story. I really commend you,
Speaker 1: you know, survivor. Thanks. I guess I'll take this time
Speaker 1: to just, um, thank the people that helped me to
Speaker 1: get to this point, help me get freedom, help me
Speaker 1: be sitting here with you all. I don't think that
Speaker 1: I get a chance to say that, well, thank you,
Speaker 1: and just tell those people how much they man, how
Speaker 1: much every little thing that they ever did help me.
Speaker 1: I thank all of those people, and and I'd just
Speaker 1: like to say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you. I don't think I can say it enough.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening at Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
Speaker 1: thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Wards. The
Speaker 1: senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our
Speaker 1: producers are Lila Robinson, Connor Hall and Jeff clad Barn.
Speaker 1: Our editor is Roxander Guidi, and special thanks to Jillian
Speaker 1: Forstad for help on this episode. The music and this
Speaker 1: production is by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all
Speaker 1: three platforms, you can also follow me on Facebook and
Speaker 1: Instagram at free Patrick Pursley at I Am Kid Culture Too,
Speaker 1: and online at i Am Kid Culture dot org. Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction is a production of Lavul for Good Podcasts and
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number One. Tune in next week
Speaker 1: for the third and final episode of Wrongful Conviction, where
Speaker 1: Patrick Persley plays the host and Patrick this time is
Speaker 1: going to interview Jarvis Ballard about their tragic shared experience. Now,
Speaker 1: both of them are innocent men who spent decades behind bars,
Speaker 1: and in this intimate and highly emotional episode, they're going
Speaker 1: to talk about the lies that landed Jarvis in prison
Speaker 1: and the patterns of misconduct that play in so many
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction cases, just like there's now. Patrick met Jarvis
Speaker 1: the same time I did, which was that this year's
Speaker 1: Innocence Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona. Both of us were
Speaker 1: immediately taken by this larger than life character. This guy
Speaker 1: just got out of prison after two decades, and he's
Speaker 1: there representing himself in such a powerful way. So these
Speaker 1: guys bonded immediately. It was an honor for me to
Speaker 1: be able to facilitate their connection and to have Patrick
Speaker 1: on the mic in my chair interviewing Jarvis. It just
Speaker 1: means the world to me, so tune in listen next
Speaker 1: Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed