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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How about you?

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Speaker 4: I'm doing great.

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Speaker 3: I've got my energy drink, and I'm ready to hear

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Speaker 3: the rest of this story that you started last week.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's go ahead and set the scene for part

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Speaker 2: two of the kidnapping. So, just to remind you, although

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Speaker 2: I think you've been thinking about this for the last week,

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Speaker 2: just to remind you where we are. We have a

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Speaker 2: seventy two year old man, Charles Ross, very wealthy, retired,

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Speaker 2: stopped with his former secretary in a car and kidnapped

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Speaker 2: at gunpoint. We have over a series of about two weeks,

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Speaker 2: several different ransom notes that seem very random for ransom

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Speaker 2: notes asking for different amounts, even sort of I didn't

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Speaker 2: say this the last time, but it felt like a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a sliding scale. Can you get this?

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Speaker 2: Maybe not get that? Twenty five thousand's probably okay, fifty thousand.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it just felt all over the place. And

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Speaker 2: we are worried about Charles Ross because we have proof

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Speaker 2: of life if this is a real kidnapping, that he

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Speaker 2: has been alive for seven days, which seems very committed

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Speaker 2: of these kidnappers.

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Speaker 3: If this is real, obviously you know they have to

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Speaker 3: be able to at least provide Charles some sustenance and

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Speaker 3: also as well as be able to contain him. But

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Speaker 3: it sounds like because of his heart condition, he may

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Speaker 3: be on the meek side, so he knows that he

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Speaker 3: can't exert much effort in trying to escape or to

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Speaker 3: fight his abductors, so he may be a very docile victim.

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Speaker 3: But there are red flags all over the place, and

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Speaker 3: I have concerns about you know, is this a real

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Speaker 3: kidnapping or has Charles orchestrated something for some reason.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's get into it.

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Speaker 2: Missus Ross is very worried about her husband, who of

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Speaker 2: course has heart problems and blood pressure problems. She has

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Speaker 2: gotten the money fifty thousand dollars a million dollars today.

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Speaker 2: She placed that wonky ad in the Chicago newspaper about

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Speaker 2: a car for sale and place the name of the writer,

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Speaker 2: A Harley Davidson. Hired writer and did everything that they

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Speaker 2: said and communicated this out saying we're ready, you can

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Speaker 2: have the money. This is all at the blessing of

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Speaker 2: the police. They receive a note as promised back with

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Speaker 2: detailed instructions that just make the other two notes or

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Speaker 2: the other several notes look sane compared. So if you remember,

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Speaker 2: the writer is supposed to deliver the money somehow, some way.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm going to make you do this again.

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Speaker 2: You're going to have to read the note. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know if you want to go through this whole thing.

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Speaker 2: I think, like I said, it's a Sherlock Holmes feet

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Speaker 2: to try to understand exactly what they want to have happened.

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Speaker 2: But this is the note, kind of the final note.

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Speaker 2: Detailed instructions includes the times that the motorcycle riders should

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Speaker 2: reach various towns before arriving in oak Park, Illinois.

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Speaker 1: So here's the big letter here.

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Speaker 4: Okay, look at this thing.

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Speaker 1: Lots of numbers too.

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Speaker 4: Everything's set. Let's go.

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Speaker 3: So contact man to leave towns at time following each point.

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Speaker 3: Start oak Park on Highway number twenty at six o'clock

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Speaker 3: PM Friday. Rockford eight forty five, Freeport nine forty junction

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Speaker 3: with Highway number eighty eleven oh nine, Savannah eleven fifty nine,

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Speaker 3: Fulton twelve thirty, Cordova one, ten East Moleene one forty five.

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Speaker 3: You know, O, Kate, right now, I just have to

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Speaker 3: kind of break this up because this is this is

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Speaker 3: absurd in terms of what they are riding, and there's

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Speaker 3: just no way that the kidnappers would not be able

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Speaker 3: to verify and be in all these places. And so

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Speaker 3: the rider has come through at Savannah at specifically at

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Speaker 3: eleven fifty nine. It's kind of crazy, but I'll continue.

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Speaker 3: You know, Savannah eleven fifty nine, Fulton twelve thirty, Cordova one,

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Speaker 3: ten East Moleene one forty five, Geneseo two thirteen, Sheffel

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Speaker 3: To fifty nine, Princeton three twenty five, LaSalle four oh five,

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Speaker 3: Ottawa six am and Joliet seven O four. Okay, now

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Speaker 3: we get and get out of that. And it says

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Speaker 3: take Highway sixty six to Chicago, travel fifty miles per hour,

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Speaker 3: gas as often as schedule permits. Eat Ottawa type egg

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Speaker 3: so can be released instantly on signal, flashing of lights

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Speaker 3: or shot. Don't go further than three hundred yards from

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Speaker 3: signal without ditching cycle. Continue at walk in same direction

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Speaker 3: on high We'll have reports on progress. Don't take other

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Speaker 3: vehicles if possible. Know you by white clothing. Ross won't

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Speaker 3: show if this contact fails on your end. If new

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Speaker 3: directions are given somewhere en route, follow if signed albe

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Speaker 3: inability to raise quite total amount might be overlooked if

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Speaker 3: accompanied by adequate explanations. The run around or a suspicious

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Speaker 3: car or truck won't ps ross opines. As how, there's

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Speaker 3: too much vitamin G in this mess. We agree, Dick

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Speaker 3: be home Sunday morning. Hide the silver where into associations

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Speaker 3: wear off?

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Speaker 1: Oh good god, Vitamin G is G. Men, they're talking

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Speaker 1: about the FBI, the government. Men.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of the same problems as the prior communications.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, there's way too many details that are superfluous.

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Speaker 3: There's no way that these abductors would be able to

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Speaker 3: verify you know, these locations, the times that the writer's

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Speaker 3: going through.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean about the Is this person somebody

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Speaker 2: who is suffering from some sort of a breakdown, or

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Speaker 2: are they, like I said, reading too many hardboiled detective novels.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, my thought is is this is still

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Speaker 5: in the line of somebody who thinks this is what

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Speaker 5: a ransom note should look like and is providing details,

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Speaker 5: probably because of something that they've seen in a I

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Speaker 5: don't know if these existed back in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 5: like a true detective magazine or some crime story.

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Speaker 3: That's what resons with me as I read this again.

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Speaker 3: We go back to this vagueness in terms of their

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Speaker 3: their financial demand in this ransom letter, they say, inability

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Speaker 3: to raise quite total amount might be overlooked. Okay, it's okay,

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Speaker 3: you want Charles back, we want fifty grand. But if

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Speaker 3: you can't quite get that, you know, we'll take ten

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Speaker 3: grand and we'll overlook We'll just settle for whatever you're

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Speaker 3: willing to give us. That's not the way these things go.

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Speaker 3: You know, so again this is I have problems.

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Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like a basic lack of confidence on

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Speaker 2: part of the kidnappers. If this is a real kidnapping,

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Speaker 2: it just seems like, like I said, the sliding scale

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Speaker 2: will take what we can get kind of situation.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know. It's so confusing.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, Kate, in none of the

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Speaker 3: communications that we have gone through up to this point

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Speaker 3: in time, has there been a threat made against Charles.

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Speaker 3: It's not like if you don't do this, we're going

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Speaker 3: to kill him. Nor has there been anything saying if

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Speaker 3: you give us a ransom money then Charles will come home.

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Speaker 3: They haven't communicated what's going to happen to Charles.

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Speaker 2: And it says Ross opines as how as how there's

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Speaker 2: too much vitamin G in this mess, and we agree

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Speaker 2: That opines part made me chuckle a little bit. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the case. What is the

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Speaker 2: relationship between Charles Ross as kidnap victim and the kidnappers

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Speaker 2: if they're having this kind of a discussion with him,

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Speaker 2: If this is really the case at all, it just

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Speaker 2: seems odd. It's almost like he's not a participant. But

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Speaker 2: it's just it doesn't seem like he's in fear of

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Speaker 2: his life according to them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I might be wrong.

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Speaker 3: Well, there are details that are only coming from Charles

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Speaker 3: right throughout the course.

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Speaker 4: Of this communications.

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Speaker 3: You know, like you know so much stock you know

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Speaker 3: in escrow at the First National Bank. Obviously, if Charles

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Speaker 3: is interacting with kidnappers, he is divulging, you know, details

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Speaker 3: that only Charles would not.

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Speaker 4: Now in addition to just the.

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Speaker 3: Absurd directions that are given for the money drop off

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Speaker 3: to occur, you know, some of that language like you

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Speaker 3: brought up ross O Pines. It almost sounds like Charles

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Speaker 3: and the kidnappers are sitting around the table having drinks

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Speaker 3: together as they're crafting this letter. Again, I kind of

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Speaker 3: lean towards I think Charles is potentially an active participant.

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Speaker 3: But let's say he's not. Maybe there's something going on

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Speaker 3: with Charles, the Stockholm syndrome, you know, in which now

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Speaker 3: he has psychologically bonded with his kidnappers and is completely cooperating,

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Speaker 3: almost like being part of a team with the very

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Speaker 3: people who abducted him.

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Speaker 2: Well, it gets even more confusing. These directions, when plotted

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Speaker 2: on a map, are sending the motorcycle rider from Harley

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Speaker 2: Davidson in a big oval from the Chicago suburb of

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Speaker 2: oak Park up to northern Illinois, riding through all of

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Speaker 2: these towns very close to Wisconsin to the border, and

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Speaker 2: then back down Highway eighty ending in Chicago. So what

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Speaker 2: the FBI, who is on the case thinks is they're

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Speaker 2: testing this whole motorcycle rider, you know, delivery method to

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Speaker 2: make sure that he's following all the directions and they'll

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Speaker 2: be able to control the situation and that they'll stop

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Speaker 2: him at some point with this signal, which was the

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Speaker 2: flashing light or they can't seem to decide is it

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Speaker 2: a flashing light or it sounds like a gunshot maybe.

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Speaker 1: In the air.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: The indecision here is very concerning for me. Again, what

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Speaker 2: is going on with Charles.

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Speaker 3: And the use of a flashing light or a gunshot

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Speaker 3: to say here's the money. You know, that's kind of

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Speaker 3: not very discreet. You know, it's going to draw the

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Speaker 3: attention of other people who have nothing to do. You know,

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Speaker 3: It's just like, why is this sky shooting a gun?

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Speaker 3: And he oh, and he dropped a bag.

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Speaker 2: It's silly, it's confusing, But missus Ross is enthusiastic about

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Speaker 2: getting her sick husband back home. They get the money,

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Speaker 2: they hire the motorcycle rider, They put the ad out,

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Speaker 2: They do all of it. He puts on a bag

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Speaker 2: that contains more than a million dollars now fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars in nineteen thirty seven money and does exactly what

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Speaker 2: the ransom note says, fifty miles an hour. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the whole thing. It just seems like foolish, but he

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Speaker 2: does it. He gets the signal flashing lights. There's a

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Speaker 2: car behind him that flashes his lights. Six miles east

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Speaker 2: of Rockford, Illinois, the hired motorcycle rider pulls over. He

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Speaker 2: detaches the bag with the cash from the bike, throws

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Speaker 2: it in a ditch, and walks about three hundred yards away.

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Speaker 1: Someone scoops up the money. And that is it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean the FBI is involved.

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Speaker 3: Is the FBI tailing this motorcycle rider at all, just

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Speaker 3: to see when the kidnappers make contact with the rider?

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Speaker 1: No, they did not.

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Speaker 2: They took it seriously with this, you know, this man's

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Speaker 2: life hanging in the balance. They did not send cars

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Speaker 2: out there. They specifically sent the rider followed directions. They

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Speaker 2: were playing ball with thei's knowledge. So you remember the

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Speaker 2: last line of this banana's notes, which was Dick be

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Speaker 2: home Sunday morning. So missus Ross is home Sunday morning

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Speaker 2: and Charles Ross has not come home. Not that you

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Speaker 2: believe kidnappers all the time here, but they went through

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Speaker 2: all of this and he does.

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Speaker 1: Not come home.

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Speaker 3: So imagine his wife's panic at that point. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: she truly believes Charles's life is in danger, and she's

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Speaker 3: done everything that these kidnappers have requested and she doesn't

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Speaker 3: get Charles back. So what did they do? Did did

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Speaker 3: they just shoot Charles and throw them in a ditch

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Speaker 3: after they got the money. That's always the risk when

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Speaker 3: you cooperate with these kidnappers. You can't necessarily guarantee that

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Speaker 3: they will do what they say they will. These are criminals.

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Speaker 3: They lie, you know, once they have benefited from their crime,

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Speaker 3: they're going to do what they need to do to

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Speaker 3: minimize their risk of being caught. And Charles is a witness.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're just going to let this person that

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Speaker 3: they've spent over a week with talking to seeing you know,

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Speaker 3: who knows how controlled they were about hiding their identities.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like, well, no, we got our money,

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Speaker 3: nobody knows where we're at. We can kill him, throw

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Speaker 3: him in a ditch, barry his body, nobody would ever

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Speaker 3: find him, and we just ride off into the sunset.

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Speaker 1: So why comply? Throughout history?

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Speaker 2: Why have police or the FBI or whomever, maybe not

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Speaker 2: said this is a great idea, But why allow this

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Speaker 2: to happen because the FBI were involved with this? Why

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Speaker 2: is this a good idea? You cannot trust a kidnapper.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: This is where the power the kidnappers have is the

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Speaker 3: emotional connection with the family because they have a loved

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Speaker 3: one in their possession and that loved one's health or

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Speaker 3: life is in danger. So families, of course are going

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Speaker 3: to have that desire to do whatever they can in

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Speaker 3: order to appease the kidnappers and hope that their loved

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Speaker 3: ones will come home. I think in this day and age,

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Speaker 3: law enforcement unless there is a very clear opening in

253
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Speaker 3: which they can use a ruse that they are cooperating,

254
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Speaker 3: but it maximizes the potential of getting the victim back

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Speaker 3: unharmed as well as identifying the offenders. You don't see

256
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Speaker 3: law enforcement generally going to cooperate under this set of

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Speaker 3: circumstances in this day, unless the family just really drives

258
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Speaker 3: that yes, we will cooperate, I can guarantee in this

259
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Speaker 3: day and age, if this were to happen, the FBI

260
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,960
Speaker 3: is likely counseling Charles's wife and saying, you cooperate, you

261
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Speaker 3: can't guarantee that he's going to come home alive. So

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Speaker 3: you know, I think just over the decades, law enforcement

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Speaker 3: has recognized that cooperation is really futile.

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Speaker 2: Well, it'll be interesting to see how you feel about

265
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 2: that coming up. So on October eighth, this is when

266
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Speaker 2: the drop happens. Ten days later, he is still not home.

267
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Speaker 2: She the wife, is pissed, and she releases a statement

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Speaker 2: through her attorney. She said, we have met, We have

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Speaker 2: agreed and met all demands of the person's holding my husband.

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Speaker 2: If he has not returned, all law enforcement officers would

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Speaker 2: make vigorous efforts to locate and punish those responsible. Missus

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Speaker 2: Ross has had enough. She has paid the money and

273
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Speaker 2: they are not participating in this. And she's of course

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Speaker 2: afraid her husband's dead, and she's mad, and she's ready

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Speaker 2: to turn the FBI and everyone else loose on these

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Speaker 2: people who have taken her husband.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that actually is an interesting kind

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Speaker 3: of emotional change, hmm, you know, to go from fear

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Speaker 3: to anger. The release of that statement tells me that

280
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Speaker 3: in her mind doesn't matter what she says, because she's

281
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Speaker 3: not going to be bringing Charles back. She's already accepted

282
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Speaker 3: he's been killed.

283
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Speaker 2: This is almost a month after, you know, he was

284
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Speaker 2: kidnapped on September twenty fifth, we're talking about October eighteenth.

285
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Speaker 2: It sounds like she has come to the reality that

286
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 2: something has happened here. And from our point of view,

287
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 2: it's either Charles is in Mexico with Florence or a girlfriend,

288
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,560
Speaker 2: or you know, this is a legitimate kidnapping. So the FBI,

289
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,080
Speaker 2: because we haven't talked a lot about the FBI, and

290
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 2: Jay Edgar Hoover gets involved pretty quickly. They've been involved,

291
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Speaker 2: and like I said, they gave the blessing to the

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Speaker 2: ransom and here's what they did. So the kidnappers, if

293
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 2: you remember, said no sequential bills, and tell me why

294
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 2: that is. I'm supposed to know this, but why no

295
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 2: sequential bills.

296
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Speaker 3: Let's say you have a block of money that got

297
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,320
Speaker 3: the serial numbers in sequence. So when that money is

298
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Speaker 3: turned over to some unknown entity. The FBI know what

299
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 3: serial numbers were given, and then the banks are alerted

300
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 3: be on the lookout for any bills coming in with

301
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 3: serial numbers between this and this, and so that can

302
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,119
Speaker 3: provide leads as to where the offenders ended up using

303
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 3: the money after they acquired it from the commission of

304
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Speaker 3: this crime.

305
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Speaker 2: Okay, so the FBI honored that request. They did not

306
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 2: give them sequential bills, but they did document every single

307
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Speaker 2: serial number on every bill.

308
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Speaker 1: So this is where we come back to.

309
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Speaker 2: I know that this probably in this day and age,

310
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Speaker 2: is not the smart idea to negotiate or pay a ransom,

311
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Speaker 2: but it does end up paying off because of the bills.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure in nineteen thirty seven what else they

313
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 2: would have been able to do except play ball to

314
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,399
Speaker 2: get this guy back, because this was their way of

315
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Speaker 2: really now actually being able to track the kidnappers.

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Speaker 3: I go back to you have the abduction, You have

317
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Speaker 3: a witness that sees the at least one of the abductors.

318
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Speaker 3: You have a direction in which that vehicle is last

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Speaker 3: seen driving. You know Florence, you know falls go into

320
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,440
Speaker 3: pursuit in some ways. So at least you have sort

321
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Speaker 3: of a starting point. There's even though you don't have

322
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 3: surveillance cameras on businesses and everything else, you potentially have

323
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Speaker 3: witnesses that might be able to place that particular car,

324
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Speaker 3: you know, at certain times along its escape. But also

325
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 3: you have the interaction. You know, in this situation, in

326
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Speaker 3: the days before online banking and electronic transmissions of funds,

327
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 3: you have to have a physical transmission of the ransom amount,

328
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Speaker 3: and that's with this motorcycle rider. And this is where,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, that is the core way to work

330
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Speaker 3: this case. If the FBI had developed a methodology to

331
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Speaker 3: be able to follow that motorcycle rider discreetly and to

332
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,640
Speaker 3: be able to see this interaction where now the money

333
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 3: exchange is occurring, well, that is that's the critical point

334
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 3: to help solve this case. And that's where if the

335
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 3: FBI didn't engage at the level they should have, that

336
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 3: was a big ball that was dropped in my opinion.

337
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 2: I mean, they absolutely had some level of control. They're

338
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,159
Speaker 2: the ones who jotted down all of the serial numbers.

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Speaker 1: It sounds to me, and I.

340
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Speaker 2: Think you're going to probably agree with me that the

341
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 2: FBI did things the hard way because listen to what

342
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 2: they did. They forwarded this list of serial numbers all

343
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 2: over the country to their different offices, their local offices,

344
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 2: law enforcement agencies, to private citizens, to business owners, everywhere

345
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 2: they thought a sleez bag kidnapper might spend money. And

346
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 2: immediately the FBI gets reports from all over the country

347
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: of people who have found one or two of these bills,

348
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,959
Speaker 2: which of which are many, many, many bills, fifty thousand

349
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 2: dollars worth of Remember they were asking for denominations of

350
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,199
Speaker 2: five dollars and ten dollars. I mean, they're kind of smart.

351
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Speaker 2: I mean that seems pretty smart to me. They were

352
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 2: able to not get tailed, and they asked for so

353
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 2: many bill it seems almost impossible to trace these bills

354
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 2: back to one person.

355
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Speaker 4: Right well, you.

356
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 3: Know, and that may be something that's happening purposefully. Is

357
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 3: that now now that they've got these small bills, they

358
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 3: may have gone and distributed those bills widely through proxies,

359
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 3: if you will, in order to throw the scent off.

360
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 3: Instead of oh, we're now going to go downtown Chicago

361
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,159
Speaker 3: and start hitting the nice restaurants and spending this money.

362
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 3: You know, now you have sort of this concentration of

363
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 3: where these bills are being spent, and now you can

364
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,400
Speaker 3: focus the investigation at those points. If you've got these

365
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 3: bills showing up in Maine and California and Florida and Missouri,

366
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,880
Speaker 3: it's like, well, hold on, is this really the kidnapper

367
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,479
Speaker 3: spending these bills or have they already exchanged this? And

368
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 3: now you have other people who are traveling the country

369
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 3: who through just maybe their normal life, are now spending

370
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 3: the ransom money, you know, and it throws the scent off.

371
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that seems pretty likely. I think you're right.

372
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 2: So this drop happens October eighth, and they are tracing

373
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 2: these bills for all of October, all of November, all

374
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,959
Speaker 2: of December. Sometime in January they get a little bit

375
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: of a good luck here, multiple multiple ransom bills had

376
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 2: been identified at a bank in Los Angeles. The bank

377
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: in LA says it came from our racetrack, Santa Anita Racetrack,

378
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 2: which is near LA. And Jay Edgar Hoover is now pissed,

379
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: just like the wife. He gets on a flight to

380
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 2: LA and they set up a sting operation at this racetrack. Now,

381
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: of course we're really worried about Charles. If this is real.

382
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: They have now traced it back to this racetrack and

383
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 2: they set up a sting operation. I'm assuming they're doing

384
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: that because they think they're gamblers and.

385
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Speaker 1: These guys are coming back.

386
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 2: I mean, this isn't a convenience store where they might

387
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: just stop in and get a soda and leave. I'm

388
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 2: assuming they're thinking this is our best bet, literally, because

389
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 2: these guys are probably going to come back multiple times

390
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: to watch the races.

391
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,719
Speaker 4: Well, they have a hotspot now.

392
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 3: They don't know upfront, you know, is it really the

393
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 3: people who are directly involved in Charles's kidnapping that's spending

394
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 3: the money there? But it sounds like there must have

395
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 3: been enough of the bills and an amount in which

396
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 3: they're going, Okay, this block of money hasn't been distributed

397
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 3: and intermingled with just the normal flow of currency. So

398
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 3: possibly somebody either directly involved in the kidnapping or a

399
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 3: direct associate of the people involved in the kidnapping could

400
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 3: be the person that's showing up at the racetrack and gambling.

401
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 3: And of course we know that, you know, gambling is

402
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,479
Speaker 3: something that people do repeatedly, so this could be a

403
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 3: repeat customer out there in Los Angeles.

404
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 2: Boy, does this sound like a nightmare of a sting operation?

405
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: So picture this, lots of rabid gamblers lining up to

406
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: bet on horses, the eye agents behind the betting windows,

407
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: taking every bill and looking out a long.

408
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: List of serial numbers.

409
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 2: It's happening so fast it must have driven these people,

410
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 2: these agents crazy, And so they do this for multiple

411
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: weeks until January fourteenth. A guy approaches the betting window,

412
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: places a bet, and the agent behind the window identifies

413
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: the bill as one of them from the ransom bag,

414
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: and they close in on him. And the guy doesn't

415
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: put up a fight, and he is a young man.

416
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 4: With curly hair and a pointy face.

417
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: He got it, and Florence identifies him positively, Yeah, as

418
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: the one who kidnapped Ross.

419
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 1: Can you believe that?

420
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 2: I mean, this is akin to the magnet in the

421
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 2: river trying to find the gun. It just seems almost impossible.

422
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 2: But this is the links that people had to go

423
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: to in this time period to capture someone.

424
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 4: Well, and these types.

425
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 3: Of operations, you know, two of us are a greater

426
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 3: extent still occur today, you know. And this is where

427
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 3: this young man, he has been compensated for his role

428
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: in this kidnapping. He's got this free money, he's done

429
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: this work, it's illegal gains, and he's going to the racetrack.

430
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: Of course he's probably trying to make more money, but

431
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: this racetrack is also a way of laundering this tracked cash,

432
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 3: this currency that could point to his involvement in Charles's kidnapping.

433
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's an amazing story.

434
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: I was really impressed with Hoover on this because that

435
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: is quite a sting operation. So let's talk about this

436
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 2: guy and see how involved he really is. He's a

437
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: twenty seven year old named John Henry seland grew up

438
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 2: in northern Minnesota, so we have a little bit of background.

439
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: Had a fairly normal life, it sounds like, until his

440
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 2: father died in his car of carbon monoxide poisoning in

441
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three. They do not talk about whether or

442
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 2: not this was suicide. To be honest, in the thirties,

443
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 2: with cars, it would not have been difficult for this

444
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 2: to have been an accident at all. But it could

445
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: have gone either way. But this is where when we

446
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: talk about something switching within someone to put them down

447
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: the wrong path. A lot of people think, when this

448
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: happened five years ago, this is what put John down

449
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: the wrong path.

450
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: I don't know if I would necessarily attribute this singular

451
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 3: event that caused John to end up becoming a criminal.

452
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 3: Maybe his father was a controlling authority within his life

453
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: that prevented him from maybe doing some illegal activities up

454
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: until that point, And now that that controlling authority has gone,

455
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 3: he's now left to his own devices and goes into

456
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: the direction he wants and feels that he needs to go.

457
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: But yeah, tell me more about this John. I'm kind

458
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 3: of curious to see. Did John mastermind if you want

459
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: to call it mastermind this whole kN napping himself? Or

460
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 3: are there people above him that are doing this? Or

461
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: is there something else going on here?

462
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: So his dad dies when he's twenty two, When John

463
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: is twenty two, by twenty three, he is robbing a

464
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: cafe in Minnesota, he is caught, he breaks out of

465
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: jail and robs several banks in Wisconsin, and then he

466
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: stole a car in Tennessee. I think your theory might

467
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: be right. I think dad might have kept him in line,

468
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: and Dad being gone sent him down a very bad path.

469
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: So now we have armed robbery. It sounds like and

470
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: that's where we're heading here. When he's just twenty three.

471
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and you know, young, relatively young, I should say,

472
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: probably naive, you know, to the world, but learning, you know,

473
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 3: particularly learning the criminal side.

474
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 4: Now does he serve time in prison at all?

475
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: It says jail, but I would interpret that maybe as prison.

476
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 4: He's in custody.

477
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 2: Yes, he's been in custody. So this is a big

478
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: change for him. And this is what's interesting. In nineteen

479
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: thirty three, the year his dad died, he had a

480
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: chance encounter while he was hunting in the woods. He

481
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: runs into a gangster named Tommy Carroll, who I've actually

482
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: read about. Tommy Carroll was an associate of John Dillinger.

483
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 4: Oh okay.

484
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 2: People in John's life said this was it. He was

485
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: not doing well when his dad died. Before, he was

486
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: doing some stupid stuff. But now this is where it

487
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: really started, is he now has this association with this guy,

488
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: Tommy Carroll. You know, he started out, had a normal childhood,

489
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: normal adulthood, it seems like, and then all of a sudden,

490
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: he runs into this guy at a time when he's

491
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: emotionally vulnerable, and it sounds like there's probably some influence here.

492
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: And John to this point has already shown the propensity

493
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 3: and the willingness to commit crimes for financial gain. And

494
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 3: now he's associating with now a group you know, in

495
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: which the organization, you know, it's going to give him

496
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 3: a structure that possibly he lost when his dad died.

497
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 3: But the structure is now part of this criminal enterprise,

498
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: and their enterprise is for financial purposes. So I could

499
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: see where now this becomes very enticing to him.

500
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,719
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you, John Siedlund is no Tommy

501
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 2: Carroll because he does not do a good job trying

502
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: to get out of this. He gives Jeedgar Hoover, who

503
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: is just incredulous to all of us.

504
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: He gives Jay Edgar Hoover a.

505
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: Fake name, Peter Ander, which is within a day or

506
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: two kind of disputed. He had about fourteen thousand, fifteen

507
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: thousand on him, which was about three hundred thousand today.

508
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: Can you imagine somebody walking around, a normal person walking

509
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: around with three hundred thousand dollars today and a third

510
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: of it is the ransom money. He said, listen, I

511
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: got the money from somebody who robbed a bank. But

512
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: the research, Ali says, very tactfully Hoover got the real

513
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: story from him, which I'm sure was literally the third degree,

514
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: got the story out of him, which is.

515
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll tell you what happened.

516
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: So he's got a lot of money's not smart enough

517
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: to spend all this money or get rid of it.

518
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: I guess he just thought he would never get caught.

519
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

520
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: Well, and just not savvy in terms of the fact

521
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: that he has physical evidence of the crime on his person,

522
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 3: you know, and this is months later, yep. Yeah, And

523
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: to also be carrying that amount of money. If anybody

524
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: recognized that he had that amount of money on him,

525
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: he's a target for a crime.

526
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: He must have been confident that nobody was going to

527
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: figure it out. And he I'm sure what's he gonna do.

528
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: He's not gonna put it in a bank. We don't

529
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: know where he's staying. He could be he has the

530
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: money to stay anywhere he wants. But I'm sure he's paranoid.

531
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: So Hoover eventually gets the real story out of him,

532
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: and Seedland says, fine, I'll tell you what happened. There's

533
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: another guy we remember, there's a getaway driver that we've

534
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: never heard anything about. Yep, here's my getaway driver. His

535
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: name is James Atwood.

536
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: Gray.

537
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: Hoover says, what happened with Charles Once you left Florence

538
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: and told her to lay on the front seat, and

539
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: he says he and James drove Charles into Wisconsin, and

540
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: so they went from the Chicago area to Wisconsin. Then

541
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: they went to Minnesota into a hideout in a town

542
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: called Emily, Minnesota, And there is where Charles did write

543
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: the first two ransom letters.

544
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: You know.

545
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: Eventually John Seedland separates from Charles and from James Gray,

546
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: and he goes and buys a typewriter in Chicago and

547
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: he does the rest of the ransom correspondence there. Because

548
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: Charles said, I Am not going to ask my wife

549
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: to raise more than five thousand dollars, so Siedland adds

550
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: an extra zero. I guess Siedland and Gray were just

551
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: very insecure. I don't know, but it seems weird to me.

552
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: Charles just said, no, I'm not doing that, and so

553
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: that's why we switched to the typewriter.

554
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like, yeah, but.

555
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: You also said, didn't John separate from James and Charles like,

556
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: He's like, I'm done with this, and he goes to

557
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: a different location and gets the typewriter and continues on

558
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: asking for handsome.

559
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: I think what happened is is that when Charles said,

560
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: I'm not writing anymore. You can do what you want

561
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: to do, but I'm not doing it. I think that

562
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: John said, crap, I gotta get a typewriter. So they

563
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: went to Chica. He went to Chicago, left James alone

564
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: with Charles the kidnapping victim, and he got a typewriter

565
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: and probably brought it back. So I think that's what

566
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 2: ended up happening. So Seedland adds this zero. That's how

567
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: we end up with fifty thousand dollars, adds a zero

568
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: when he sent the letter. So then this is where

569
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: things kind of get really dicey.

570
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: I think.

571
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: So on the night of November ninth, which is the

572
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: next night from picking up the ransom money with the

573
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: writer from Harley Davidson, Seedland goes back to the hideout,

574
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: which is in Minnesota, and there he and Gray divvy

575
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: up the money, with John Seedland getting thirty thousand dollars

576
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: James Gray getting twenty thousand dollars. I have no idea

577
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: why John got more than James, but that's the way

578
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: it was and at this point, I'm saying, who cares

579
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: what is happening with Charles? Is he alive at this point?

580
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: Right now, we have money in play. The money is

581
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: in front of these two guys, and I have done

582
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: enough stories in history to know that when you actually

583
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: put a million dollars the equivalent of a million dollars

584
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: in front of two people, there is a really good

585
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: chance that one's going to try to take out the

586
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: other one and take the whole pot. So that's what

587
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, if that's what's going to happen coming up.

588
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: So this is what Seedland says, happens.

589
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: John takes a thirty thousand, James Gray takes a twenty thousand,

590
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: and John gets incredibly paranoid. He thinks James is going

591
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: to attack him, and the two men start to struggle,

592
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: with Charles Ross right next to them, because I'm assuming

593
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: he's tied up. All three of them are standing outside

594
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 2: where this money has been divvied up, and there's like

595
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: a pit. This is just what John Seedland says.

596
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: There's a pit.

597
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: They fall into it. John Seedland says, as Charles Ross,

598
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: the victim, was knocked out, John Seedland takes the gun

599
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: and he is struggling with James Gray.

600
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: He shoots him, so he kills him, says.

601
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: Actually, he says he shot James Gray several times because

602
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: he wouldn't stop moving. Seedland says he tried to revive

603
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: Charles Ross, who he says was knocked out in the process,

604
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: and when he couldn't, he shot him in the head.

605
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: Two dead guys, one kidnapping victim it sounds like, and

606
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: one co fender.

607
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was expecting John to minimize his role in

608
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: Charles's homicide. But the fact that he's saying I shot

609
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 3: him in the head, you know, now I put a

610
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: greater veracity on the accuracy of what he said happened.

611
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: Does this feel to you like, really Charles, who we've

612
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: been sort of suspecting much of the time here, Does

613
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: Charles Ross seem like an innocent bystander in here who

614
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: was killed? Whether or not John is telling the truth,

615
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: and maybe he shot both of them point blank in

616
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: the back of the head, you know wherever sounds like

617
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: that nobody is saying that Charles is involved with this

618
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: in any way.

619
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 3: Well, at this point, yeah, assessing John's statement, you know,

620
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 3: he's being interviewed by Hoover by the FBI agents. If

621
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 3: Charles were actively involved, I would expect John to have said, yeah,

622
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: you know, Charles hired me to do this pretend abduction

623
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: in order to be able to secure money. Charles needed

624
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: to do something, you know, with additional money. So let's

625
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 3: say Charles is the one that walks away with you know,

626
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: thirty thousand dollars because he needed to somehow hide that

627
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: money from his wife, from other associates in order to

628
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: pay off maybe the underworld and paid John you know.

629
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 4: Twenty grand whatever.

630
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: But it sounds like which I'm kind of blown away

631
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: because I really was leaning after those ransom letters and

632
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 3: the silliness and everything else. Now this sounds like Charles

633
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: to set this up, and I'm going to have to

634
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 3: kind of attribute it. You know, you're dealing with, you know,

635
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 3: this young, somewhat ignorant offender who really did not plan

636
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 3: this crime out very well and then ultimately you know,

637
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: got caught with it. But i'd want to corroborate you had. Okay,

638
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 3: so you've got to okay, where did where did James

639
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: and Charles' bodies end up? Did they just did he

640
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 3: leave them down in this this pit well, let's go see.

641
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 3: You know, are they there? Are they shot just like

642
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 3: you know John said he did to them. You have

643
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: to substantiate those statements. You have to corroborate or refute

644
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 3: in order to say yes, you know he is telling

645
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 3: the truth about this.

646
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and verify, because the FBI says you

647
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: exactly what you just said.

648
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: You need to prove all of this to us.

649
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 2: Celand says, I took off after the murders happened.

650
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: I went all over the country.

651
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: Which is where all the money has been spent, all

652
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: over America. He went to I mean this guy. He

653
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: went to Nebraska, he went to Washington State, he went

654
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: to la He went to Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington. I'm impressed,

655
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: so I want to list to all of these DC

656
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: He went to Miami, he went to New Orleans, Denver, Texas,

657
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: Los Angeles. He's very smart and then not smart at all,

658
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: both at the same time. It's amazing. He had a

659
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: lot of potential and then took some wrong turns. So

660
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: this he really went all over the place. So he

661
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 2: is claiming that they kept Charles' a life for two

662
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: weeks because the murder happened October ninth, and they had

663
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: kidnapped him on September twenty fifth. That's a long time

664
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: to be with somebody who you are trying to constantly

665
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: keep on edge so they don't try to run off

666
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: or whatever.

667
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: Well, well, and there's just the practical aspect, you know,

668
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 3: they got to prevent him from being able to escape.

669
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 3: He has to eat, drink, use the bathroom, all of it.

670
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know.

671
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 3: So there is a lot of effort in terms of

672
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: monitoring and kind of caregiving to keep Charles alive. One

673
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: of them, James or John, has to be there all

674
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: the time.

675
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: The FBI says, where's all this money? And he said,

676
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: I hid a lot of it because he didn't have

677
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: all of it. I had a lot of it in

678
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: a typewriter at one of our hideouts. So this does

679
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 2: feel very John Dillinger. There are several hideouts, so the

680
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: FBI flies him to Minnesota. They go to the first hideout,

681
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 2: which is it's now January, covered in snow. He takes

682
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: them to the hideout and hidden behind some branches in

683
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: lined with wood is this typewriter and it's full of money.

684
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: So it's I mean, he's really kind of laying it

685
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: out there with a lot of accuracy. I'll show you

686
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: a photo of James. I'll show you a photo of

687
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: John the dead kidnapper, and then I'll show you a

688
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: photo of the typewriter. I mean, I'm just happy to

689
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: have photos. So here is pointy faced man, okay, James

690
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: Atwood Gray, that's him, the dead guy ed kidnapper. And

691
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: then here is the typewriter full of cash. So I

692
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: guess he just took the top off of it. This

693
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: is the typewriter he bought in Chicago. When Charles Ross

694
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: said I'm not asking my wife for more than five

695
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: thousand dollars forget it. Just from that statement we haven't

696
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: talked about that, it sounds to me like if we

697
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,959
Speaker 2: believe this and Charles really says to him, bug off,

698
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: I'm not doing that, they must not have made him

699
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: feel as if he were going to die. He must

700
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: have thought I'm going to get out of this somehow,

701
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: some way, because it's a pretty brazen thing to say

702
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: to someone who you know has at least a revolver.

703
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 3: But I think we see that in the personality behind

704
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 3: the writing of the ransom letters. You know, this kind

705
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: of wishy washy well I'll take whatever money you can

706
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 3: give me.

707
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: You know, yeah really, And Charles I Matt.

708
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 3: He's seventy two years old. He's a successful businessman, very

709
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 3: you know, financially savvy, probably has all this self confidence

710
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: in the world and has in essence to him. Who

711
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 3: are kids who are now making these demands, you know,

712
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: So Charles is probably the dominant personality in that room.

713
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 4: Yep.

714
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: So then Hoover says, okay, where are these two.

715
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: Men that you killed?

716
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: And there's a second hideout and this is in Spooner, Wisconsin.

717
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: So we're going from Minnesota to Wisconsin. And this is

718
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: so different just as an aside, isn't this different from

719
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 2: some of the other stories where it's like horse and

720
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: wagon and wheelbarrows and now we're on flights and there's

721
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: trains and so this just shows the time period he

722
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: is able to travel everywhere, and not a very long

723
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: period of time. So obviously, you know, the later we get,

724
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: the more that these guys are able to evade law

725
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: enforcement because even though he has to have some kind

726
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: of an ID, he can go anywhere very fast before

727
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: he's detected just because the transportation options.

728
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: In essence, he has access to relatively modern transportation means

729
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 3: like what we have today, but it's during an era

730
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: in which the tracking of people is rudimentary at best

731
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 3: versus what can be done by authorities today. So he

732
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 3: most certainly could take advantage of this mobile environment that

733
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: kind of happened, you know, during the nineteen thirties, probably

734
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: maybe a little bit earlier. You know, this was law

735
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 3: enforcement had to catch up with this modern transportation in

736
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 3: order if you have a fugitive, if you have somebody

737
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 3: you're looking for, they would be able to get across

738
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 3: the country like John did in rapid Order, and law

739
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: enforcement would be just absolutely blind to well, how do

740
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: we track this person down?

741
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 4: Versus today.

742
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 3: Of course, there's other mechanisms that law enforcement can use

743
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 3: to try to find somebody, if they board a flight

744
00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 3: or if they get on a bus.

745
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 2: I think this case is so fascinating. We're dropping back

746
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: down to the eighteen hundred. It's because when they go

747
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,439
Speaker 2: to the second location, it's of course January again Wisconsin.

748
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: There's so much snow they actually have to take a

749
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: horse and carriage to get out to their second hideout.

750
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: So the big reveal is is John Seland telling us

751
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: the truth did he really murder these two people, his

752
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 2: co conspirator and the kidnapping victim. Does everything he say

753
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: tally with what he has told Jay Edgar Hoover. So

754
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: they get out there and he points, and there's the pit,

755
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 2: and there are the bodies of James Gray and Charles Ross.

756
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: And Gray is laying face down naked.

757
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: We never know why James is naked, but they're dead,

758
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: is really the bottom line. And then Ross's body is nearby.

759
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: So once he finally told the truth, it all came out,

760
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: you know. Oh and by the way, he had robbed

761
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: a few banks along the way on his travels across

762
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: the country. I forgot to mention that. So you know,

763
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 2: he is a truthful bad guy at least right now,

764
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: you know.

765
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 3: At least you know, he gave statements. Those statements are

766
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 3: corroborated by you know, finding the evidence, finding the victims,

767
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 3: the homicide victims. If Charles had any involvement in hiring

768
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: John to you know, for to try to you know,

769
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 3: stage his own abduction for whatever reason, there'd be no

770
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: reason why John would try to protect that from the FBI. Yeah,

771
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: you know, so at this point in time, I just

772
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: think that you know, the goofiness that I was keying

773
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 3: in on that was suggesting that Charles was involved in

774
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 3: his own kidnapping plot. I just have to just say, no,

775
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 3: you know what, he just had two kind of just

776
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 3: somewhat unsophisticated criminals that knew just enough. Yeah, and probably

777
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: you know, we're just like what I talked about the staging.

778
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 4: You know, they probably work, well, how what does the

779
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 4: ransom letter look like? How do we get the money?

780
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 3: And they looked at you know, different things, you know,

781
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 3: magazines or whatever they could necessarily read or see back

782
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 3: in the day and go, well, this is what we

783
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 3: should do. And that's where that goofiness came from.

784
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right, and I think meaning Tommy

785
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: Carroll was not helpful.

786
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: He sees this successful gangster, you know who he's probably

787
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 2: trying to pattern himself after. He's a successful bank robber

788
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 2: so far so and he could have gotten away with

789
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: this pretty easily. The serial numbers, though, I mean, lord,

790
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: that was some real hard work on the FBI trying

791
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 2: to get through all that. I mean, that's a lot.

792
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: That was a lot. I was impressed by that.

793
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 3: No, that that absolutely is you know, and that's just

794
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 3: where you get, you know, I'm so impressed when I

795
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 3: take a look at what investigators had to do back

796
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: in the day before modern technology, you know, and it

797
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 3: was a lot and a lot of work.

798
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 4: Oh pawn shops.

799
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: He had all the paper, you know, if the transactions

800
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: out of pawnshop you have to go through, you know,

801
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 3: and that's all by hand. It's not an easy thing

802
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 3: to do, you know. So it really does underscore, you know,

803
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 3: the persistence that is needed to solve these types of cases.

804
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 2: Well right on brand for what we know about John Seedland.

805
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 2: He makes one more big mistake. He can't get out

806
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: of his own way. At the second hideout, when they're

807
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: all looking at this pit, he tries to escape from

808
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 2: the FBI. He's chained to an FBI agent and he

809
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: steps backwards and he hits the agent over the head

810
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 2: with his with his handcuffs and they both fall to

811
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 2: the ground. But the agents you know, quickly overpower him,

812
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: and he very kindly apologizes for doing that. It's like

813
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: he was born into being a criminal, but not a

814
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: good one. I mean, what were you thinking you're chained

815
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: to this guy. I don't know what was happening in

816
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: his head. If that is just some sort of like

817
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 2: an impulse that he can't control.

818
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: But he made some big mistakes.

819
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 3: I mean, this may just be he's recognizing this as

820
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: his last chance at freedom. It looks after this, you know,

821
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: he's going to be put into He's going to be

822
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 3: taken into custody and then tried for you know this,

823
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 3: this double homicide.

824
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 4: What ultimately happened to John oh Man.

825
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 2: So four days later he's arraigned in Chicago. He originally

826
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: pleads not guilty. He should have stuck with that, but

827
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 2: then he changes his mind and jures a guilty plea.

828
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: A month later, I'm assuming, as you know, a hope

829
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 2: for mercy, but it does him no good. He sentenced

830
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 2: to death, and he's executed in the electric chair in

831
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 2: July of nineteen thirty eight. And that is all there

832
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: is about John Seedland and this horrible story that left

833
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 2: a woman without it sounds like her very lovely husband

834
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 2: and just you know, an awful, awful I can't even

835
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 2: imagine going from September until January, not knowing what happened

836
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: to my spouse, fearing the worst, hoping that if something

837
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 2: bad did happen to him, that it was his heart

838
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: and at least it happened quickly and it wasn't that

839
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: traumatizing for him. I mean, I just can't even imagine

840
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: going on after that. But what a story?

841
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, was there any information on how John targeted Charles

842
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 3: to begin with?

843
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: He just said it was random.

844
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 2: Could have been at the hotel, the Fargo hotel, and

845
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 2: I don't think it was the man that they were

846
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: talking to. I think it could have just been somebody,

847
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 2: you know. He could have also just spotted his car

848
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: on the road.

849
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 1: Who knows.

850
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 4: Sure.

851
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 2: This is why it was a two parter, because there

852
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: was so much happening with it. So not only do

853
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 2: you have this kidnapping and whether the kidnap ee is

854
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: involved or not, but then you have what happens after

855
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: all of that. How do you catch them? How's the

856
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 2: FBI involved? Jagger Hoover is sometimes not the good guy

857
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 2: in these situations. He did some pretty crappy things, But

858
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: in this situation, you know, the sting operation I think

859
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 2: was really smart. And every once in a while, you know,

860
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 2: I like to do two things. One remind us in

861
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: history that these are real people and the way that

862
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 2: we present them needs to be respected. But number two,

863
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: I just think it's always fun to see exactly what

864
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: she said, what would you do in times when there's

865
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 2: nothing available? Almost nothing that we have now was available

866
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: to them, And look what they were able.

867
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 4: To do, oh for sure.

868
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 3: And I know, like from my perspective, you know this,

869
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: like every case that I've ever been involved with, there's

870
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 3: those learning opportunities And I'm assessing this on the fly

871
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 3: as you're talking about it, and I'm now starting to go,

872
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: hold on, I think it's this. You know, Now I

873
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 3: have another case in which I can tuck into my

874
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: dictionary for future cases that I ultimately will either consult

875
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 3: on or work.

876
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: We can learn a lot from history, we really can.

877
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: I mean, these are not just old stories that you

878
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: sit around and tell your kids by the campfire, which

879
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,439
Speaker 2: is what I do with my kids, unfortunately for them.

880
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 2: But you know, I think these are things that we

881
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: really can learn from. And there are so many cases

882
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: that I read about now that I just think, oh

883
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: my gosh, that that could have happened in a Buried

884
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 2: Bones episode, that could have happened three hundred years ago,

885
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: exactly the same dynamic.

886
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: So people don't change.

887
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 2: Everything happens the same, even if it's like one ad

888
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: things happen the same way. Very very true, okay, Paul, Well,

889
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 2: next week will be another compelling case. It will probably

890
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: not be a kidnapping, but I'll make it something just

891
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 2: as exciting.

892
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: I promise.

893
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 4: I'm sure you will.

894
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 3: And I so appreciate you taking the time and effort

895
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: to tell me these stories.

896
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: Thank you, Kate, thank you.

897
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

898
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot com slash

899
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

900
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 3: Research by mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

901
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

902
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

903
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

904
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

905
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

906
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: Barry Bones pod.

907
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

908
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

909
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

910
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

911
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 2: cold cases is also available now