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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick,

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Speaker 2: and it's Saturday. Time to go into the vault for

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Speaker 2: an older episode of the show. This is part two

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Speaker 2: of the series that began airing on last Saturday's Vault episode.

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Speaker 2: This is Washing of the Waters, Part two, originally published

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Speaker 2: March sixteenth, twenty twenty three. I Hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert.

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Speaker 4: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 4: two in our series about healing waters. The belief held

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Speaker 4: by many people throughout history that you could heal your

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Speaker 4: body from illness and restore your health by bathing or

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Speaker 4: by immersing yourself, sometimes just in hot or cold waters,

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Speaker 4: sometimes in the waters of a special spring or location. Now,

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Speaker 4: in the last episode, we discussed the prehistoric origins of bathing,

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Speaker 4: as well as some evidence of ideas that became attached

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Speaker 4: to bathing in the ancient world, for example, ritual and

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Speaker 4: religious ideas about purity. You can see this in the

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Speaker 4: ritual bathing by priests in ancient Egypt, or as ritual

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Speaker 4: washing and bathing procedures outlined in the Bible.

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Speaker 2: And then also the segue into the belief that became

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Speaker 2: especially popular among the physicians of ancient Greece and Rome

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Speaker 2: that you could cure diseases by immersing the body in

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Speaker 2: hot or cold water, often though not always connected to

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Speaker 2: explanations based on the theory of the four humors. In

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Speaker 2: today's episode, I wanted to kick things off by returning

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Speaker 2: to talk about a few more aspects of a paper

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Speaker 2: we discussed in the previous episode. This was the paper

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Speaker 2: Water and Spas in the Classical World the Journal Medical

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Speaker 2: History nineteen ninety by Ralph Jackson, who was at the

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Speaker 2: time a scholar working for the Department of Prehistoric and

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Speaker 2: Romano British Antiquities at the British Museum in London. Now,

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Speaker 2: as this paper addresses not only beliefs about the healing

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Speaker 2: powers of bathing and water, but also of specific dedicated

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Speaker 2: spa locations, I got interested in the origins of the

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Speaker 2: English word spa, and it seems to me that the

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Speaker 2: most commonly accepted etymology of the word today is that

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Speaker 2: spa is derived from the name of a particular curative

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Speaker 2: mineral spring resort in eastern Belgium, which is called Spa.

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Speaker 2: So Spa the common noun derives from Spa, the proper

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Speaker 2: now in the name of the place, which by the way,

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Speaker 2: is a city that still exists today. You can go

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Speaker 2: to Spa, Belgium. And I saw on their Wikipedia page

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Speaker 2: that one of the violinists on the Titanic was from Spa, Belgium.

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Speaker 2: But the proper noun seems in turn derived from a

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Speaker 2: common noun in the Walloon language, which is a Romance

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Speaker 2: language spoken in eastern Belgium, and the original noun there

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Speaker 2: would have been espa, meaning a fountain or perhaps also

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Speaker 2: referring to a spring. Now, another thing we talked about

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Speaker 2: in the previous episode was a number of names for

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Speaker 2: healing by immersion in water and related practices. So you

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Speaker 2: have the idea of balneotherapy, that is, healing by bathing,

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Speaker 2: often in mineral springs. Hydrotherapy a more general term referring

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Speaker 2: to all kinds of water based treatments for disease, and

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Speaker 2: I wanted to add to that another one that is

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Speaker 2: mentioned in this paper. This is a phrase taken from

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Speaker 2: what the Caesar Augustus did when he was practicing some balneotherapy,

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Speaker 2: he did a practice called taking the waters. So in

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Speaker 2: most cases that seems to refer to, yeah, just immersion

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Speaker 2: like bathing in waters, but also maybe some in some

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Speaker 2: cases drinking the waters. And so I like that because

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Speaker 2: it sounds kind of like you're taking the waters, almost

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Speaker 2: like you take a pill. But it also makes me

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Speaker 2: think of the competitive aspect referenced by Plenty of the

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Speaker 2: Elder when he talks about people bragging about how much

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Speaker 2: of the thermal springs they can take, either like you know,

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Speaker 2: I can soak in this way too long, I can

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Speaker 2: soak in there so long, and then also by allegedly

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Speaker 2: drinking so much from the sulfur of springs that you

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Speaker 2: could no longer see their jewelry because their skin would

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Speaker 2: close over their rings. Sounds like an exaggeration to me,

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Speaker 2: or at least I hope. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I've seen this pop up with various springs. We've been

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Speaker 1: looking at it in our research, where there will be

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Speaker 1: traditions of bathing or soaking in the waters, but also

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Speaker 1: of drinking the waters. So it seems like these two

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Speaker 1: are easily cos it's good enough for the epidermis is

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Speaker 1: good enough for the digestive track.

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Speaker 2: I guess. Yeah. It invites kind of gross questions, like

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Speaker 2: in what order do you do those two things?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, these are the sources of questions one

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Speaker 1: always has to have about one's water supply.

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Speaker 2: I guess, well, I guess in the sense that, yes,

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Speaker 2: every glass of water you drink contains water that was

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Speaker 2: poop and pee and everything else. The water cycle just

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Speaker 2: continues around the world, but at least we hope today

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Speaker 2: that water goes through some kind of purification process before

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Speaker 2: you can drink it. I'm just imagining, I know, people

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Speaker 2: soaking in sulfur springs and then just scooping that right

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Speaker 2: up on and.

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Speaker 1: Like a child in a bath. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have that one to look forward to as well.

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Speaker 1: Don't drink the bath water. See how many times you

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Speaker 1: get to say that? Real quick though, I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about this, I think a lot of this, what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about here, it kind of comes down to a

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Speaker 1: few different realities that are worth pointing out. One, we

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Speaker 1: need water, and two sources of water in the world

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Speaker 1: are not all equal. There are better sources than others,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the human experiences has had to

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Speaker 1: do with trying to figure out what are the best sources,

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of this you could maybe even

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Speaker 1: look at as just kind of like a human overcomplication

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Speaker 1: of that basic scenario, like I want the best water

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Speaker 1: for me, the water that's not going to make me sick,

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Speaker 1: the water that's going to ensure my continued life, and

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Speaker 1: then we kind of build up everything on top of that.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's exactly right. And this brings us back

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Speaker 2: to the next thing from this paper I wanted to

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Speaker 2: talk about, which is when we discussed Jackson last time,

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Speaker 2: we were talking about more general ancient Greek and Roman

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Speaker 2: beliefs about the healing powers of bathing, but I mentioned

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Speaker 2: there were also beliefs about the medicinal virtues of specific

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Speaker 2: water sources, either for bathing or drinking, or sometimes both,

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Speaker 2: and Jackson lists a number of examples of this, and

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Speaker 2: of course plenty talked about specific waters in the sense

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Speaker 2: of waters with specific properties, so maybe a sulfur springs

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Speaker 2: versus alum springs and the different ailments that those could address.

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Speaker 2: But here you can actually get into specific lowcalum so

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Speaker 2: a few mentioned in Jackson's paper. One is the the

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Speaker 2: aqui Cutili, which is a mineral spring northeast of the

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Speaker 2: city of Rome. Both Plenty and Kelsus mentioned the cold

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Speaker 2: waters of the spring as having the power to cure

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Speaker 2: stomach disorders. In particular, Jackson also mentions the sulfur springs

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Speaker 2: of Aquiabuli. This is near the town of Tivoli, also

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Speaker 2: northeast of Rome, and Jackson writes quote described by Vitruvius,

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Speaker 2: Strabo and Marshall, recommended by Plenty for the healing of wounds,

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Speaker 2: and frequented by Augustus when he was troubled with rheumatism.

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Speaker 2: But one of the most famous locations in the ancient

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Speaker 2: Roman world for bathing was the facilities in the city

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Speaker 2: of bay Ye, which is near Naples, famous for its

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Speaker 2: baths fed by hot springs, and Jackson writes quote Kelsus

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Speaker 2: recommended the sulfurous sw wet baths in the myrtle groves

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Speaker 2: above bay Strabo characterized the place by its hot springs

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Speaker 2: that were quote suited both to the taste of the

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Speaker 2: fastidious and to the cure of disease. And Plenty believe

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Speaker 2: that quote nowhere is water more bountiful than in the

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Speaker 2: bay of Baye, or with more variety of relief, meaning

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Speaker 2: relief from disease. However, Baye and its hot baths interestingly

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Speaker 2: combined multiple reputations, so it was a place of healing

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Speaker 2: from disease, but it also had a reputation as sort

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Speaker 2: of a vice magnet or a party town. So imagine

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Speaker 2: what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. But for ancient Rome,

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Speaker 2: which was already had, you know, sort of a kind

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Speaker 2: of baseline vegaciness to it, you get hints of this

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Speaker 2: reputation in the writings of ancient authors. For example, Marshall

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Speaker 2: described a story of a virtuous woman who went to

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Speaker 2: Baye and while she was there, she know she hung

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Speaker 2: out in the baths and then ended up deciding to

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Speaker 2: leave her husband for a youth that she met there.

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Speaker 2: And Marshall rights quote she arrived at Penelope and departed

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Speaker 2: a Helen, which is very judgy, but gives you an

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Speaker 2: idea of what they thought.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and this strikes to something that's

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Speaker 1: kind of key to the overall history of certainly baths

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Speaker 1: and spas in European history, like that at times they

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Speaker 1: become morally suspect, and that can of course lead to

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Speaker 1: the downfall of various bath and spot cultures in different areas.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and of course it was also a place. This

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Speaker 2: is another aspect of the kind of the vagas equality

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Speaker 2: of it. It was a place of opulence and extravagance

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Speaker 2: for the rich, hosting private villas of emperors, fancy spa

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Speaker 2: facilities that had a lot of amenities. Jackson writes quote. Nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: a vast sector of baths, imposing buildings to enclose the

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Speaker 2: hot springs and sulfurous vapors. Grandiose rooms and extensive loggia

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Speaker 2: and porticos have all been identified in the multi level

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Speaker 2: complex terraced into the volcanic slope above the bay and Gulf,

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Speaker 2: and the paper goes on to describe a number of

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Speaker 2: sort of individual buildings here, one misleadingly named the Temple

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Speaker 2: of Mercury, misleading because it appears to not actually have

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Speaker 2: been a temple, but a place for soaking in hot

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Speaker 2: spa waters. And this was this gigantic rotunda that was

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Speaker 2: again built up up on the volcanic slope, and it

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Speaker 2: had these big windows to let light in from the top,

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Speaker 2: but also to ventilate the sulfurous fumes. And it was

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Speaker 2: said to in some ways resumable the design of Hadrian's Pantheon.

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Speaker 2: Another interesting thing about the area of Bay is that

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Speaker 2: there have been found artifacts from the time which are

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Speaker 2: glass bottles that have engravings on them that are supposed

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Speaker 2: to depict this area, the region of baye. Like, there

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Speaker 2: was one example sighted in the paper and included on

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Speaker 2: a plate that has all these engravings on the glass

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Speaker 2: that's described as a quote bulbous glass bottle that was

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Speaker 2: found in North Africa and it has like these drawings

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Speaker 2: that are supposed to represent this area near Naples. And

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Speaker 2: it's thought that maybe these were glass bottles where the

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Speaker 2: water from Bay was bottled so people could take it

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Speaker 2: away as a souvenir and I don't know, maybe just

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Speaker 2: hang on to it or drink it later or something.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating. And of course we still see that today

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Speaker 1: with various waters that even if they're not considered sacred,

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Speaker 1: and in many cases they are still considered sacred at

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Speaker 1: the very least, it's some sort of a curio you

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Speaker 1: take home with you, some sort of keepsake of a trip.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, though most were not as luxurious as the

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Speaker 2: facilities of Bay, which were for the rich and powerful.

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Speaker 2: Many regions of the Roman Empire had their own spa facilities,

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Speaker 2: even kind of far flung regions that were far away

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Speaker 2: from the imperial center. Jackson mentions especially regions where the

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Speaker 2: locals practiced Celtic religions. So this would have included parts

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Speaker 2: of Gaul, which is sort of modern day France and

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Speaker 2: Germany because water deities in Celtic mythology held a special importance.

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Speaker 2: And this also brings up an association between the development

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Speaker 2: of Roman baths or spas and the presence of the

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Speaker 2: Roman military in places far away from Rome itself, from

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Speaker 2: the imperial core. When the legion moved in, this would

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Speaker 2: often lead to the development of a spa resort at

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Speaker 2: a natural thermal spring, and a spa would become a

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Speaker 2: place for wounded soldiers to heal or place for recreation

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Speaker 2: and sort of maintenance of good health among the ranks.

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Speaker 2: And Jackson mentions that, so you know, the Romans come in,

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Speaker 2: their military comes in, and they build a spa. That

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Speaker 2: this was not done out of a sense of kind

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Speaker 2: heartedness to the locals, like look what we're doing for you.

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Speaker 2: It was out of self interest, because it was for

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Speaker 2: the Roman troops or at least for their benefit, even

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Speaker 2: if it was also open to locals.

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Speaker 1: But certainly it does speak to the value that the

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Speaker 1: Romans placed on this spa culture.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and it's also interesting how that cultural importance means

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Speaker 2: it gets sort of wrapped up in religious ideas as well,

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Speaker 2: because Jackson writes that under Roman rule, in one of

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Speaker 2: these areas of the Empire, you build a spa, and

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Speaker 2: a deity of the local religion would usually be conflated

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Speaker 2: with a Greco Roman deity that had similar powers or patronage,

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Speaker 2: and thus you'd get situations like you had in the

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Speaker 2: German city of Achen, where the local Celtic deity Granus

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Speaker 2: was combined with the Greco Roman figure of Apollo the Healer,

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Speaker 2: and thus the composite cult figure Apollo Granas is born

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Speaker 2: and rules over the local hot springs the spa there.

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Speaker 2: And this is interesting because it helps give you a

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Speaker 2: sense on the ground how these spas were used. Jackson

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Speaker 2: includes an image from an early second century votive altar

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Speaker 2: found near Achen appearing to depict Apollo Granis. Here this

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Speaker 2: composite figure of the Greco Roman and the Celtic deity,

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Speaker 2: and in describing it, Jackson writes quote, the enthroned God

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Speaker 2: holds a liar and a plectrum to musical instruments, and

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Speaker 2: carries his bow and quiver of arrows over his right shoulder.

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Speaker 2: An inscription records that the altar was dedicated in fulfillment

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Speaker 2: of a vow by l Latinius Masser, a native of

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Speaker 2: Verona and senior officer or Prefectus castororum of the ninth Legion,

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Speaker 2: who may have been restored to health at the spa.

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Speaker 2: So you get healed to the spa, that may mean

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Speaker 2: that you have to now make a donation there. Maybe

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Speaker 2: you made a vow to the local deity and said, like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if these waters heal my wound or heal my sickness,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be the sponsor of

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Speaker 2: this altar or something. Now, this paper also gets into

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Speaker 2: another major SPA location, a very historically important and interesting

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Speaker 2: one at Bath in England. But I think I'm going

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Speaker 2: to save that one for the next episode in the

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Speaker 2: series because that brings up its own fascinating mysteries and histories.

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Speaker 2: So we'll come back to Bath.

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Speaker 1: Now for the next example. We're going to look at here.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to hit on something from Irish tradition, in

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Speaker 1: part because the week this episode is coming out, it's

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Speaker 1: the week of Saint Patrick's Day, and I like to

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Speaker 1: spend my research time a little bit on something Ireland related.

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Speaker 1: And I found a great example in the waters of

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Speaker 1: Leak Slip Spa. Now you'll find numerous thermal springs in Ireland,

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Speaker 1: and you also find this tradition of healing wells and

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Speaker 1: holy wells that you also see throughout England. You know,

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Speaker 1: you'll find sacred wells in Ireland as well, different wells

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Speaker 1: and different springs or attributed different healing properties for different maladies.

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Speaker 1: And you'll also findly connected to such figures as Saint Patrick,

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Speaker 1: but also to older gods and goddesses of Irish tradition.

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Speaker 1: But at any rate, balneo therapeutic medicine in Ireland was

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Speaker 1: especially big in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and at least the

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Speaker 1: early nineteenth centuries.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And this sort of correlates with how it seems

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Speaker 2: that after the Roman so you know Greco Roman world,

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Speaker 2: medical treatments involving bathing or immersion were very popular, and

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Speaker 2: it seems that kind of declined later in the Roman Empire.

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Speaker 2: And was again comparatively rare through the early Middle Ages.

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Speaker 2: But then there was sort of a resurgence and interest

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Speaker 2: in bath culture and in medicine involving bathing in the

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Speaker 2: late Middle Ages and the Renaissance, and then there was

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Speaker 2: another big rush for it, I think maybe in the

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Speaker 2: eighteenth and nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of this, you see the fads

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Speaker 1: come and go right now, specifically with leak Slip here.

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Speaker 1: This is located near the town of leak Slip in

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Speaker 1: northeast Ireland. Its spelled le ei x LP, and I

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Speaker 1: understand that this area in general is a major Irish

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Speaker 1: water source, or at least there are various videos online

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Speaker 1: about the importance of the various water operations located in

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Speaker 1: this region. This particular SPA, however, was apparently it's not

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Speaker 1: one that has like a deep history in and of itself,

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Speaker 1: or at least that doesn't seem to be the case

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Speaker 1: based on the research I was looking at. Apparently the

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Speaker 1: spa was uncovered in seventeen ninety three by workmen digging

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Speaker 1: the Royal Canal. They discovered the spring, and then as

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Speaker 1: they were developing everything, they ended up building it out

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Speaker 1: into kind of a Romanesque spa, and it was apparently

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Speaker 1: quite popular for a good run there, but then it

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Speaker 1: fell out of use steering the early nineteenth century, and

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Speaker 1: based on what I was reading, it was like for

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Speaker 1: a while it was just kind of in ruins. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this probably lines up with just sort of

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Speaker 1: a general dip in the popularity of bounteotherapeutic medicine. Now,

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Speaker 1: when you initially start reading about the Leak Slip Spa,

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Speaker 1: you know, it basically sounds like any other spa situation

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Speaker 1: you might be looking at, you know, sulfurous waters that

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Speaker 1: were thought to have healing properties, Romanesque baths catering to

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Speaker 1: folks in search of such healing. But what really caught

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Speaker 1: my attention is that in this particular story anyway, there

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Speaker 1: is also a worm.

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Speaker 2: A worm.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So as we move into this, I'd like to

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Speaker 1: turn to the writings of Caesar Otway, who live seventeen

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Speaker 1: eighty through eighteen forty two. He talks about this in

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Speaker 1: his eighteen thirty nine book A Tour in Connate, and

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Speaker 1: he describes Leak Slip Spa as follows. And I have

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Speaker 1: to warn this is all just part of a gigantic

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Speaker 1: run on sentence that I guess was just the style

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Speaker 1: in those days. All right, Please, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I can summon the energy to give it proper justice.

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Speaker 2: I have faith.

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Speaker 1: Od Way writes, it is not only a beautiful but

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary spring. For if you believe all the neighbors,

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Speaker 1: not a fish or frog will live in its waters.

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Speaker 1: And though there be a floculent, rusty, colored, ochroous matter

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Speaker 1: constantly rising to the surface of the well, exactly similar

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Speaker 1: to that which is found in springs strongly impregnated with iron,

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Speaker 1: yet no test, either gallic acid or pruseate of potash,

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Speaker 1: can identify any iron. But in the center of this

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Speaker 1: floculent matter is found a very red little worm, about

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Speaker 1: half an inch long, which all those who still who

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Speaker 1: have still faith in the celebrity of the well say,

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Speaker 1: is the sovereignist remedy alive for a sore leg? Nay more,

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Speaker 1: let anyone who has drank over night from fifteen to

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Speaker 1: twenty tumblers of punch, and whose head is so hot

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Speaker 1: that it makes the water fizz into which it is plunged,

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Speaker 1: Let him, I say, but take a quart or two

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Speaker 1: of the water of this spring. On the following morning,

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Speaker 1: and he will lose all his whiskey fever and walk

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Speaker 1: home as cool as a cucumber. I assure you, gentle reader,

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Speaker 1: I have seen Sundry making the experiment, and I actually

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Speaker 1: saw them afterwards sober.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, I want to read the rest of this guy's book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I say, it has a great energy to it,

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Speaker 1: so to refresh. Otway is telling us that nothing else

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Speaker 1: lives in these waters, but they seem like iron infused

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Speaker 1: waters despite negative testing, and that floculation occurs, creating a

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Speaker 1: kind of wool like coagulation on top of the water

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Speaker 1: in which you'll find tiny red worms. These waters will

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Speaker 1: cure you of your sore leg or your punch inflicted hangover. Either.

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Speaker 2: That is a great story. And this did make me

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Speaker 2: look up floculent. Okay, So floculent means kind of like coagulant.

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Speaker 2: It means making particles clump together. Didn't a new word

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Speaker 2: for the vocab.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think you know sometimes I guess you

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Speaker 1: see it with like the kind of foaminess on top

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Speaker 1: of of like flowing waters where they kind of like

357
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Speaker 1: get kind of dead ended in a particular part of

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Speaker 1: the stream. That kind of thing or at least that's

359
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Speaker 1: what I'm picturing in my head.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but when he's talking about the worm, I can't

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Speaker 2: tell does he mean literally a worm, like a biological

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Speaker 2: organism a worm, or does he mean like a worm

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Speaker 2: like clump of something.

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Speaker 1: He appears to mean an actual worm, because I found

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Speaker 1: plenty of other references to it. These details that I'm

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Speaker 1: about to read are from a twenty twenty one source

367
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Speaker 1: survey of the heritage of Holy Wells and County, killed

368
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Speaker 1: there by Laughlin at Ulf for Ireland's Archaeology Plan Heritage Solutions.

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Speaker 2: Quote.

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Speaker 1: A small worm lived in the scum on the top

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Speaker 1: of the pond, and people used to put it between

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Speaker 1: two pieces of cloth and rub it to their eyes

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Speaker 1: as a cure for weak eyes. Some people left the

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Speaker 1: pieces of cloth on the briars beside the well, but

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Speaker 1: others didn't as there was no saint associated with the well.

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Speaker 2: So what there's no saint there to scold you into

377
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Speaker 2: leaving the pieces of cloth on the briers beside the well,

378
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Speaker 2: so you would just what's steal the cloth?

379
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Speaker 1: I'm less sure about what they're getting at with that,

380
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Speaker 1: but okay, it's hard for me to get past the

381
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Speaker 1: idea that Okay, not only yes, are there tiny red

382
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Speaker 1: worms in these thermal springs, but you also are going

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Speaker 1: to essentially squeeze them into your eyeballs or something like that,

384
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Speaker 1: something way too close to that to initially said, well

385
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Speaker 1: with me.

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Speaker 2: So you're what, You're squeezing out the little red worm

387
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Speaker 2: juice into your eyes, and that cures their weakness.

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Speaker 1: I guess, And it's maybe going through the cloth a

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Speaker 1: little bit. I couldn't find much in the way of

390
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 1: other references to that particular process, but still it seems

391
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Speaker 1: to be the case that there are multiple accounts of

392
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Speaker 1: the red worms here. So setting aside any actual curative

393
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 1: effects of the worms, you know what might they be. Obviously,

394
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: to live in such an environment, you need some matter

395
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: of thermophile or extremomophile organism, and we know that there

396
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: are plenty of examples of those sorts of organisms, creatures

397
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 1: that are able to thrive in heated waters, for example.

398
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 1: But I was looking around and there there are plenty

399
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: of accounts of red worms and also things described as

400
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: worms living in thermal spring environments around the world, with

401
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 1: some certainly endemic to particular springs or immediate environments, and

402
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: others more sort of widespread. For example, cet Brews and

403
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: Animal Life in Hot Springs, published in nineteen twenty seven

404
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: in the Quarterly Review of Biology. Rites of the blood

405
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: worms that are found in particular waters understood at least

406
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: by this author, to be the larval form of various midges,

407
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: and that while they might occur in various waters, the

408
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: author described having encountered them in a shallow thermal pool

409
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Speaker 1: at yellow Stone National Park.

410
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: Oh Okay, so it may so, this so called worm

411
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 2: may have not been permanently a worm, but one of

412
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,959
Speaker 2: the stages of life of another organism, maybe the larval form,

413
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: like a of a type of fly exactly.

414
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you can look up images of this like

415
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: these are well documented. But they're yeah, they're not true worms.

416
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: They have legs there, they're a larvae now there. But

417
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: still that doesn't solve everything because there are also Sulfur

418
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: cave worms to consider. There was a recent study of

419
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: these creatures at Sulfur Cave and Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Thousands

420
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: of these worms live in the waters there, and Aaron

421
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: Scott at All for NPR described them as follows in

422
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: September of twenty twenty two. Quote the worm blobs look

423
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: like dark red sea an enemies wriggling in the stream bed.

424
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: The individual worms are around one inch long, then is

425
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: pencil led and live off the bacteria in the cave,

426
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: which in turn lives off the sulfur. See that's already

427
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: checking off some boxes there.

428
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

429
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: Now, the worms in this case, dubbed LiMnO drillis sulfur insists,

430
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: seem endemic to this particular thermal spring, but one of

431
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: its relatives, LiMnO drillis Hoffman history, is also red in

432
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: color and is very tough, able to live in polluted

433
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: waters that other organisms can't handle. And it's very widespread

434
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 1: and is found in Ireland.

435
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so another candidate right right now. Interesting.

436
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: In either case, the red coloration of the worm or

437
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: larva is due to hemoglobin molecules in the organism. Both

438
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: midge larva and in the worms in question here are

439
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: sometimes called bloodworms. They're both referred to as bloodworms, and

440
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: I found an article about this with the Missouri Department

441
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: of Conservation pointing out, hey, if you're talking about blood worms,

442
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: you might be talking about a larva. You might be

443
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,120
Speaker 1: talking about a particular type of worm.

444
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: Both good for weak guys.

445
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: In either case, though, I would say, don't go finding

446
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: tiny red worms or larva and squeezing them into your eyeballs.

447
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: I looked around to try to find any details on

448
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: folk remedies or folk medicine traditions that involved squeezing red

449
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: worms into your eyes and or in any way really

450
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: using them medicinally, and I could not find anything. Granted,

451
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: that's exactly the sort of thing that in some cases

452
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: maybe lost to history.

453
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: Though Yeah, I think there are tons of fulk remedies

454
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: that never or only barely make it into print. Yeah.

455
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: Now, I did run across one article concerning mysterious cattle

456
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 1: diseases kind of a throwback to our Halloween episodes.

457
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: Oh. I had to think for a second, but yes,

458
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 2: in past October we did a couple of different livestock

459
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: malady series. We did the stuff on the cattle mutilation

460
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: panic of the nineteen seventies and on the traditional beliefs

461
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 2: about elfshot, where people thought that the sort of subtle

462
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: folk were using spiritual weapons to harm their livestock.

463
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I found in this case, it was an article

464
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: from nineteen fourteen titled the cattle disease called Canog and

465
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: its traditional cure by amulets and charms, and this was

466
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: by William F. D. Vismus Kane, published in the Journal

467
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland nineteen fourteen.

468
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: So the author here notes that the actual symptoms of

469
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: the disease vary, and it's basically one of these situations

470
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: where you have kind of a catch all term that's

471
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,239
Speaker 1: referring to probably different ailments in different species, and at

472
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: least in some cases it was attributed to some sort

473
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: of biting insect, but also to the consumption of some

474
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: sort of worm. Now the worm that is blamed, it

475
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: seems like accounts vary. There's like one account saying it's

476
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: some sort of a black worm, which obviously isn't what

477
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: we're talking about here. But there's at least some cases

478
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: where they refer to a tiny red worm as being

479
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: a potential cause of the ailment. And so the author

480
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: here is citing one of these accounts. There's a discussion

481
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: of quote, a very small worm is red as scarlet

482
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: and found in the height of summer and never found

483
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: at the time of the year when the canog is seen.

484
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: The sighted source indicates that the scarlet worm does not

485
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: cause canog. Canog he stresses is treated via blood letting,

486
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: But the illness caused by ingesting the scarlet worm is

487
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: said to cause the head to swell, and then you

488
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: cure it by reaching inside the cow's mouth and squeezing

489
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: or popping a bladder that has grown at the root

490
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: of the tongue. And I was just kind of nodding

491
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: my head to this. I was like, Okay, I guess

492
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: that's the thing that happens. But the author here cites

493
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: a Professor Mason of Dublin quote, I think the scarlet

494
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: tiny worm of the writer is with little doubt, the

495
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: well known blood worm frequent in shallow water in summer,

496
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: and is the larva of the cheronomus, a kind of

497
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: crane fly, a perfectly noc with animal. And then Mason

498
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: seems to just dismiss this bladder bursting cure as a

499
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: quack cure, similar to one that was done by quack

500
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: doctors that would cure an animal by bursting internal bladders

501
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: on the spine. So some sort of, you know, some

502
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: sort of like a fake healing technique. I don't know

503
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: if this is a solid accusation that the professor is

504
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: making or if there maybe there was some sort of

505
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: folk remedy in play and some sort of like swelling

506
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: on the back of the tongue. But Professor Mason seems

507
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: to be saying like, no, no, no, that's just some

508
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: quack trying to you know, cheat you out of a

509
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: few coins by reaching down your cow's throat.

510
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: So this might be more akin to curing your cattle

511
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: of elf shop by having them like eat fairy crabs

512
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: and then poking them with a special knife or something.

513
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of interesting to think about again this paper,

514
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: it deals in part with the use of amulets to

515
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: cure mysterious ailments, but there are other ways to supernaturally

516
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: address a particular ailment. Another note about the bloodworm midge larvae. Here,

517
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: they're consumed all the time by trout so and I

518
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: believe you can actually get them as bait as well.

519
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: So perhaps some of our anglers out there have some

520
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: experience with these blood.

521
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: Worms floculent fly fishures let us know.

522
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they seem harmless. I think some people can

523
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: have allergic reactions to them. I saw a twenty thirteen

524
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: paper about this, but again I wasn't able to turn

525
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: up anything about their use in folk medicine, or the

526
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: use of the other type of organism that is sometimes

527
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: referred to as a bloodworm having any kind of role

528
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: in folk medicine. So again, don't go squirting worms into

529
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: your eyes. But I think it is fascinating because we

530
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: have a situation here where, yeah, there's the more traditional

531
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: sort of sulfur springs scenario going on, but then this

532
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: added level of, oh, there's something about the things that

533
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: live in the spring water, there's something about the organisms

534
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: in it that have some reputed beneficial health effect.

535
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I certainly haven't read anything about that in

536
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: the ancient Roman context or anything.

537
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it did end up reminding me of another

538
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: example of supposed therapeutic waters with organisms that live in them,

539
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: in which in cases where at least some traditions value

540
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: the presence of the organisms themselves, which leads us to

541
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: the world of fish. So, and some of you may

542
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: know exactly where this is going, But my earliest exposure

543
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: to anything out there about this about there being fish

544
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: in therapeutic waters and the fish or the therapeutic part

545
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: of the immersion experience. I mean, the most I think

546
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: that it ever happened is I've maybe been occasionally nibbled

547
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: by a fish in a lake or at the beach.

548
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: But back in two thousand and nine, my wife and

549
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: I visited Arawona National Park in Thailand and toward Erawan Falls.

550
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: These are beautiful waters, So basically you have just like

551
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: a whole system of waterfalls with these very clear pools

552
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: in between them that have kind of like this blue appearance,

553
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: very beautiful, and there are fish in those pools, and

554
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: you were encouraged to, you know, come up, dip your feet,

555
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: take your shoes off, get your feet in those waters,

556
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: and then the fish will come up and nibble on

557
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: the dead skin of your feet, which tickles.

558
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: But in some cases you're saying, some people believe there

559
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: to be health consequences of this kind of thing.

560
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: Right right now, I don't know specifically about the tie scenario,

561
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: if there if there's any kind of like traditional thaie

562
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: medicinal understanding of these fish. If memory serves the guides

563
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: on this particular trip, they just made reference to it

564
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: being a pedicure. I don't remember there being any kind

565
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: of medical argument made for it. But I know this

566
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: is probably ringing about with a number of people out

567
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: there because there is this wider spread use of supposed

568
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: fish pedicure services, where you've got go to some sort

569
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: of a pedicure business and you will put your feet

570
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: into a tank that has fish in it, and the

571
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: fish will eat the dead skin off your feet.

572
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: Once again, it seems like a thing that's unusual and

573
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: interesting enough that a lot of people, I bet would

574
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: do it just for the novel experience, even if it

575
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: doesn't do much better than a pumice stone for getting

576
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: dead skin off your foot.

577
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I'm not sure exactly what species of fish

578
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: this was that I encountered in Thailand. Again, it's a

579
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: while back, and I didn't take notes at the time.

580
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they mentioned a specific species, but

581
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: I see some references online and these are like not

582
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: papers or anything, but just like reviews and so forth,

583
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: referring to it being a gara rufa or a gara rufa.

584
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: I guess more accurately, And this is a particular This

585
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: is the fish that is often encountered in these supposed

586
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: fish pedicure services that you'll encounter some places. They're illegal

587
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: in some places, and I'm not recommending you go out

588
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: and try them. And we'll come back to why in

589
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: a minute here, But yeah, I saw some references to

590
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: it being this Gara rufa, but those are at least

591
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: I understand to be native to Western Asia, and I'm

592
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: not sure if this could be a situation where they

593
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: could potentially even be invasive there, because I was reading

594
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: on the US Fish and Wildlife Service website that they're

595
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: rated as like a low uncertain invasive risk. So yeah,

596
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this could even conceivably be the

597
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: same species, But research indicates that there are definitely are

598
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: other Gara species, and there are Gara species in Thailand.

599
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: There are at least three. There's one that's called Gara

600
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: Fluvia tillis, and this seems to reside in the same

601
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: general area that I'm talking about here. So if I

602
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: had to just guess at all of this and we

603
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: ultimately all this is would be a gas based on

604
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: some of the things I was reading, I would say

605
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: maybe it's that species, but I just don't know for sure.

606
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: But the gar Ufa has certainly traveled around the globe

607
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: via the fish pedicure industry, and I know a number

608
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: of you have probably caught wind of this one way

609
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: or another. The idea being that you go to this business,

610
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: to a business, you immerse your feet into a tank

611
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: full of these fish, and they nibble away at the

612
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: dead skin on your feet, like revealing like a brighter

613
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:36,959
Speaker 1: or more vibrant skin.

614
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: I don't know why I thought you were going to

615
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: say the face of God.

616
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: You know, it's we talked many and we've just spoken

617
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: many times on the show about situations where there's some

618
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: sort of like especially in oceanic environments, where there's some

619
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: sort of a grooming species that helps out another animal.

620
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: I mean, most recently we talked about the whale lice

621
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: on whales and how they're essentially doing the same thing.

622
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: But to be clear, when we're talking about it being

623
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: a pedicure service that you're encountering like in a tank

624
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: under a table, that is not a natural environment scenario.

625
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: This is a very augmented scenario, and there are various

626
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: issues to be had with it. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, on

627
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: one hand, potential sanitation concerns, but then also ethical concerns

628
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 1: as well concerning the fish. And as a result, yeah,

629
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: it's banned in many places. So yes, there are other garafish,

630
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: but the Gara rufa is native to the Middle East,

631
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: particularly parts of Jordan, Syria, and Turkey, and in the

632
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: wild they feed on detritus, algae and tiny animals, but

633
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: in the absence of better food sources, they will feed

634
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: on dead skin. So the alleged origin of the fish

635
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 1: pedicure is most in most of the literature we're looking

636
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: at is the Kangle hot spring in Turkey. Now, again

637
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about hots in an area long known to

638
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 1: human beings, so it's likely that these springs were known

639
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: and utilized for all the reasons humans have visited thermal

640
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 1: springs throughout their history. And while the fish were certainly here,

641
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: they were certainly present in this location. It seems things

642
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: have changed in the last one hundred years or so,

643
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: one hundred years plus. So there's a two thousand and

644
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: seven Scientific American paper. This is one I think you

645
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: turned up and sent me Joe, titled fish that Go

646
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: Skin Deep. And I guess it's not so much an article.

647
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: It's kind of a short bit.

648
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 2: It was just a short, little snippet article, but it

649
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: had a very interesting detail in it.

650
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it adds a little bit of historical detail

651
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: that I was having trouble finding in other studies quote

652
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: these fish have acquired a taste for humans, largely because

653
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: they have little choice. The spring is too hot to

654
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: sustain enough algae and plankedon to feed them all. In

655
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: the past, the fish were able to move between the

656
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: spring and a creek that runs nearby, but after learning

657
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: of a story about a local shepherd who's wounded legs

658
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: healed after being dipped into the spring in nineteen seventeen,

659
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: builders walled off the spring from the creek. In the

660
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties to preserve a captive school. A Turkish family

661
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: has now constructed a hotel, villas and a playground, and

662
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: markets the resort to Sorias's patients.

663
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 2: Now, I came across this short Siam article because we

664
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: were looking at papers that seem to be focused on

665
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: the question of is this treatment actually effective or not

666
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: for pariasis. It seems obviously this is a form of

667
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: alternative medicine. So I don't know if I have an

668
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 2: opinion or not on whether there's any evidence this is

669
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: actually useful for siriasis. I guess I would have my doubts.

670
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: But the fascinating thing to me was the thing about

671
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: like enclosing this fish population that used to go back

672
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: and forth, but apparently now is stuck in the pool.

673
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: Yes, and would otherwise maybe not eat dead skin off

674
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: of people's feet, but given that it is an altered environment,

675
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: they are encouraged to do so due to the lack

676
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: of other food sources. Still, I think the basic scenario

677
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: here wrote what it reveals about the natural environment that

678
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: has been augmented. This does kind of line up with

679
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: the Thailand scenario where again, in that Thailand scenario you

680
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: had various clear pools that were connected by multiple cascading waterfalls.

681
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 1: So sort of these kind of like traps of small

682
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 1: aquatic habitats that are connected. But you can see why

683
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: you might end up with the population of fish in

684
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: a given pool that are hungry, that have maybe exhausted

685
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: what they can eat, and are then happy to check

686
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: out anything that is introduced. So advocates of this treatment

687
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: sometimes called ichthiotherapy, they toubt it is either a general

688
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: cosmetic pedicure sort of procedure or is a treatment for

689
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: skin ailments such assiriasis. Again, we're not going to weigh

690
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: in too much on the ups and downs of this.

691
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: This is getting into the area of alternative medicine. But

692
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: certainly when you're dealing with the fish take environment version

693
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: of it, there are some definite reasons to stay clear

694
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: of it.

695
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: Anyway.

696
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: In both of these cases, we have the blood worms,

697
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: we have these little fish that nipple at your toes.

698
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: These are both situations where we have spring waters that

699
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: are noted for their health benefits in part or entirely

700
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: due to the organisms that live in them, the animals

701
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: that live in them. And I think it leads at

702
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: least worth noting that thermal springs continue to be of

703
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: interest to scientists because of potential extremophile organisms that might

704
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: live there that also might reveal some sort of unique

705
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: antibiotic discoveries. Though I don't think this is the sort

706
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: of thing that they merely bathing in the waters would unlock.

707
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: For a person, right. It would be more that, like

708
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 2: the organisms there are useful for research on antibiotics, not

709
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 2: that like you going to cure your diseases, but just

710
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: by getting in the water.

711
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that I don't think anybody's making those claims. But

712
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: then against the exact sort of claims that could end

713
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: up being made about a given spring, like bathe in

714
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: the extremophile waters of extremophile springs, unlock the unknown antibiotics

715
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: for your own well being, that sort of thing.

716
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 2: Well, the hot spring blood worms and the hot spring fish.

717
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: I did not imagine this at all as an angle

718
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: we would end up going down. But this has been fascinating,

719
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: and our series on the Healing Waters will have to

720
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: continue with at least one more episode, maybe a couple

721
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: more next week. There's a lot more interesting stuff to

722
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: talk about, of course, with a lot of the alleged

723
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 2: cures we've been talking about up to this point, probably

724
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: the majority of them. If there was an effect, it

725
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 2: may have been a placebo effect, but there may actually

726
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: be some cases where there's pretty good evidence of balneotherapy

727
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 2: of various kinds, even in particular spring waters, having an actual,

728
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: direct mechanistic effect on healing certain illnesses. And if that

729
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: is the case, we're gonna talk about some examples of

730
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 2: that next time.

731
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, so be sure to join us for that discussion.

732
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: There's more strange stuff in the Healing waters.

733
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: It'll be floculent, yes.

734
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 1: Yes, don't drink the floculent waters.

735
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: Don't drink the bathwater. All right.

736
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: Well, as we close out here, to want to remind

737
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: everybody that our core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

738
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: You'll find them on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the Stuff

739
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed. On Mondays, we do

740
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: listener mail, on Wednesdays we do a short form artifactor

741
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: Month to Factor, and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema.

742
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious concerns and

743
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film.

744
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

745
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

746
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

747
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

748
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

749
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 2: dot com.

750
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,600
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751
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,880
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752
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:19,480
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753
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:25,239
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