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Speaker 1: Pushkin. I've been trying to push myself to try new

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Speaker 1: things on my sabbatical this semester. And one of the

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Speaker 1: new things I've decided to try, much against my better judgment,

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Speaker 1: is an improv comedy class. I assumed my natural talents

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Speaker 1: as a beloved podcast host and professor would easily translate

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Speaker 1: into the world of improv. Turns out, comedy is very,

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Speaker 1: very hard. I absolutely adore my improv class. But it's

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Speaker 1: taught me to have a lot of respect for the

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Speaker 1: craft of comedy and for the people who naturally make

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Speaker 1: everyone around them crack up. People like today's guest.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Chris Duffy.

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Speaker 3: I'm a comedian and the author of Humor Me, a

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Speaker 3: new book about how to laugh more every day.

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Speaker 1: Comedian Chris Duffy has written jokes for celebrities like Ted

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Speaker 1: Danson and Jeff Goldblum. He also hosts the hit podcast

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Speaker 1: How to Be a Better Human. But initially, Chris didn't

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Speaker 1: want to work in comedy at all.

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Speaker 2: I was a young comedian.

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Speaker 3: Recently graduated person who wanted to be a journalist and

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Speaker 3: had applied to pretty much every newspaper in the country.

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Speaker 3: And they'd all said, we are not hiring journalists. In fact,

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Speaker 3: we are firing them and we've gone out of business.

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Speaker 1: Chris graduated from college during the Great Recession, a time

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Speaker 1: when many young people were having difficulty finding work in

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Speaker 1: their chosen fields. And so he pivoted.

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Speaker 3: I said, OK, I've also always loved teaching. Let me

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Speaker 3: work as a teacher and I'll be this inspiring figure

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Speaker 3: where I change young people's lives.

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Speaker 1: But that didn't go as planned either.

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Speaker 3: I got to the classroom and I realized, oh, no,

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Speaker 3: I am not changing people's lives on day one. In fact,

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Speaker 3: they are in control of the classroom and I need

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Speaker 3: to learn the most basic things like how to get

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Speaker 3: people to sit in their seats and listen to what

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Speaker 3: I'm saying. And it was so much harder than I

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Speaker 3: expected it to be. And I was so much worse

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Speaker 3: at it than I had been in my imagined version.

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Speaker 2: And I just felt really bad.

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Speaker 1: And so Chris did what many motivated young people decide

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Speaker 1: to do when things in their career aren't going well.

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Speaker 3: I had this idea that was like the only solution

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Speaker 3: is for me to just work harder, to take away

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Speaker 3: the things that are fun in my life. So like

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Speaker 3: stop doing hobbies, stop hanging out with friends and just

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Speaker 3: like focus everything on the problem. And the problem in

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Speaker 3: this moment was that I'm not a good enough teacher.

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Speaker 3: And what I found is that I really quickly started

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Speaker 3: burning out. I was becoming a worse teacher because now

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Speaker 3: I was getting frustrated all the time. I didn't have

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Speaker 3: any sources of joy and pleasure that could connect me

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Speaker 3: to the kids and to my other teachers. And one

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Speaker 3: day I was just like riding home on the bus

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Speaker 3: and it was dark outside and I had gotten to

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Speaker 3: work when it was dark outside and it was cold

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Speaker 3: and wet and dreary, you know, classic New England winter.

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Speaker 3: And I just thought like, this is awful. I haven't

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Speaker 3: laughed in so long and my life is so not fun.

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Speaker 1: It was at that moment that Chris, depressed and burnt

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Speaker 1: out and in dire need of a little joy, started

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Speaker 1: browsing through his school's student newspaper.

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Speaker 3: One of the students in the class that I actually

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Speaker 3: was struggling with the most, a kid who I really

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Speaker 3: had trouble connecting with, He started a column where he

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Speaker 3: reviewed cafeteria food. And this kid, Gary, wrote the funniest

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Speaker 3: food reviews I've ever read. And he was just honestly

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Speaker 3: reporting on what he thought about like chicken hot dogs.

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Speaker 3: I read them on the bus and I was just

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Speaker 3: laughing so hard. And that was such a cathartic moment.

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Speaker 3: And it made me realize, oh, this is a thing

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Speaker 3: that has been really missing from my life.

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Speaker 2: And maybe if I.

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Speaker 3: Don't try and force myself to be as serious as possible,

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Speaker 3: but instead bring in some humor and some lightness and

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Speaker 3: allow myself to have that joy again.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that can help.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember any of those lunchtime reviews?

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Speaker 3: There is never a moment in my life where Gary's

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Speaker 3: reviews are more than a 10 second grab a wet.

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Speaker 3: Would you like me to read you one verbatim? Sure.

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Speaker 3: They are truly on my desktop and also not just

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Speaker 3: on my desktop. It's printed out, folded up in my

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Speaker 3: backpack so that when I travel, I have them. OK,

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Speaker 3: so the headline here is pizza or cardboard? Brooke's Food

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Speaker 3: Critic takes on the daily lunches by Gary, sixth grade.

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Speaker 3: Whole wheat, two cheese pizza with spinach and fresh fruit.

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Speaker 3: This dish, originally from Italy, looks like cardboard when it

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Speaker 3: is served. You can't taste the sauce or the cheese.

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Speaker 3: The least they could do is put some pepperoni on top.

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Speaker 3: Real pizza is pizza where you get to choose your

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Speaker 3: toppings and it contains lots of sauce and cheese. The

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Speaker 3: smell of real pizza is like the smell when you've

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Speaker 3: just come out of the shower.

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Speaker 2: And used your sister's shampoo. It's so good.

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Speaker 3: On the plus side, the pizza arrived at our table

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Speaker 3: warm and the fruit actually looked fresh. Overall, I give

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Speaker 3: this lunch two out of five stars. Well, first of all,

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Speaker 3: that's a tough critic that that meal only got two stars.

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Speaker 3: I also love that he describes pizza as a dish

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Speaker 3: originally from Italy. I have so many questions about what

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Speaker 3: brand of shampoo his sister was using that it smells

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Speaker 3: like fresh pizza to him.

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Speaker 2: But gosh, I love that so much.

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Speaker 1: It might seem odd to place so much importance on

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Speaker 1: a sixth grader's cafeteria column. But Chris looks back on

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Speaker 1: that particular bus ride as a major turning point in

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Speaker 1: his life.

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Speaker 3: I know it's like the classic nonfiction story of like,

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Speaker 3: and that moment led to this book and changed my life.

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Speaker 2: But it really did transform the.

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Speaker 3: Way that I saw the world and led to the

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Speaker 3: career that I've had and to the book that I wrote.

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Speaker 1: Chris's new book is called Humor Me. How laughing more

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Speaker 1: can make you present, creative, connected and happy. It's packed

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Speaker 1: with behavioral science research, entertaining stories and practical advice. And

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Speaker 1: in this episode of our Back to School book series,

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Speaker 1: Chris breaks down some of my favorite takeaways so that

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Speaker 1: we can all learn to incorporate a little more laughter

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Speaker 1: and delight into our lives, especially during the moments we

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Speaker 1: need it most. Our minds are constantly telling us what

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Speaker 1: to do to be happy. But what if our minds

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Speaker 1: are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us,

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Speaker 1: leading us away from what will really make us happy?

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Speaker 1: The good news is that understanding the science of the

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Speaker 1: mind can point us all back in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos.

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Speaker 1: So your book makes the strong claim that any tough

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Speaker 1: situation in life has room for humor. Tell me what

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Speaker 1: you mean there.

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Speaker 3: I think in some ways, to me, humor is kind

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Speaker 3: of like the opposite of toxic positivity, which is that,

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Speaker 3: you know, in every situation, dark cloud, there's a silver

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Speaker 3: lining and anything you're going through, there's a bright side.

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Speaker 3: And I really don't believe that. So to be clear,

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that. Instead, I'm saying that humor can

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Speaker 3: often be a way of acknowledging the reality of a situation,

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Speaker 3: which means that sometimes the laughter comes from how bad

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Speaker 3: it is, that it's just like, I thought this couldn't

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Speaker 3: get worse. And it got even worse. And I think

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Speaker 3: the biggest disclaimer I'll say, because I do believe that

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Speaker 3: you can find humor in any situation, you can't always

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Speaker 3: find it in any situation in the moment. There's a

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Speaker 3: thing that a lot of comedians talk about is a

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Speaker 3: formula that's comedy is tragedy plus time. Sometimes we need

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Speaker 3: the time to see the comedic elements, the absurd, the

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Speaker 3: bizarre things that happened in that experience. But, you know,

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Speaker 3: things like grief, like suffering, these are universal human experiences

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Speaker 3: and the things that are universal are often the ones

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Speaker 3: that we can laugh about and connect on because it's

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Speaker 3: a place where we have all been.

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Speaker 1: Another question I have is, can we build our sense

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Speaker 1: of humor? I'm curious what you used to think when

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Speaker 1: you first started teaching comedy and what you think now.

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Speaker 3: I originally kind of believe that there are funny people

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Speaker 3: and there are not funny people, that you're kind of

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Speaker 3: born with it or you're not. And now I think

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Speaker 3: about it more like athletic ability, which is to say that, um,

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Speaker 3: I can swim as much as I want and I'm

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Speaker 3: never going to beat Katie Ledecky in a swim race, right?

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to become an Olympic gold medal swimmer,

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Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean that I can't get better at

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Speaker 3: swimming and more comfortable in the water and enjoy the

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Speaker 3: pool more because I used to not know how to

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Speaker 3: swim and I used to not like swimming and now

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Speaker 3: I really love swimming.

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Speaker 2: So I think humor is like that.

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Speaker 3: The more that we practice it, the more that we

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Speaker 3: use it as a skill and think of it as

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Speaker 3: something we pay attention to, the more we notice things

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Speaker 3: that are funny to us and teaching comedy and also

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Speaker 3: just performing comedy and being around comedians. I've seen so

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Speaker 3: many people go from kind of like C plus at

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Speaker 3: best funny to A plus funny. And even more than

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Speaker 3: the performance side, I think I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 3: people go from seeing the world as just like dark

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Speaker 3: and depressing and scary to acknowledging that is real. But

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Speaker 3: there also are these constant sources of absurdity.

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Speaker 2: And joy and delight.

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Speaker 3: And I think that is the biggest thing that I

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Speaker 3: think you can train yourself to see more of.

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Speaker 1: And so this idea that you're going to be building

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Speaker 1: your humor means that you have to have some idea

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Speaker 1: about what humor is and what it means, recognizing that

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Speaker 1: the irony of asking you for a definition of humor

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Speaker 1: is about the most unfunny thing I could ask. How

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Speaker 1: are you defining humor?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's certainly true that often like defining humor is

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Speaker 3: one of the least funny things you can do. And,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's that classic E.B. White quote that is

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Speaker 3: like talking about a joke is like dissecting a frog.

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Speaker 3: No one particularly enjoys it. And the frog dies afterwards.

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Speaker 3: I will say that for my purposes, I think of

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Speaker 3: humor as being able to recognize the absurdity and delight

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Speaker 3: in the world and in yourself and to laugh at it.

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Speaker 3: And I draw a distinction between comedy, which is like

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Speaker 3: the professional practice of humor and humor, which I think

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Speaker 3: is something that everyone should have in their lives, because

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Speaker 3: I actually don't really think that everyone should be a

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Speaker 3: professional comedian. And I also don't really think that it's

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Speaker 3: very important to be like able to tell a joke

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Speaker 3: or to be the person who at a party. You

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Speaker 3: can stand in the center of the circle and everyone's

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Speaker 3: hanging on your every word as you tell a story

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Speaker 3: and everyone's laughing at it. What I care about is

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Speaker 3: if I was to put it in professional comedian terms,

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Speaker 3: it's like, how do you find the material? So how

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Speaker 3: do you walk through the world and see the things

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Speaker 3: to notice them and then think, oh, that's strange. And

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Speaker 3: then think about what makes that funny to you and

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Speaker 3: to make yourself laugh. So that's really where I draw

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Speaker 3: the line is like humor is the ability to do

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Speaker 3: those things, but not necessarily to perform it publicly.

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Speaker 1: So when we think about humor, I think one of

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Speaker 1: the things we often get wrong is that it's about

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Speaker 1: like ignoring the bad stuff. And on the show, we

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about feeling your negative emotions, not pushing

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Speaker 1: your negative emotions aside. I think people worry that humor

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Speaker 1: does just that thing that we're telling people not to do,

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Speaker 1: that it's a form of kind of ignoring the bad stuff.

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Speaker 1: Explain to me why that's wrong.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm not sure that it is wrong, to be honest.

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Speaker 3: I think that like humor is a double-edged sword. You

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Speaker 3: can certainly use humor to push people away and to

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Speaker 3: deflect from what's real and authentic. That's certainly a way

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Speaker 3: that people use humor all the time. I think that

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Speaker 3: if you're using it in the way that I am

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Speaker 3: encouraging you to, you're doing less of the deflection because

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Speaker 3: it is more of the observing and appreciating. The humor

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Speaker 3: that I want to celebrate is the kind where we

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Speaker 3: are laughing with another person and they go, that is

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Speaker 3: so true.

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Speaker 2: Or I never thought about it that way.

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Speaker 3: Or I think everyone has had this experience, which is

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Speaker 3: you're with a friend or a family member, someone you've

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Speaker 3: known for a long time, and you say something or

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Speaker 3: they say something and you are just laughing so hard

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Speaker 3: that you're holding your sides and tears are streaming down

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Speaker 3: your face. And it's really hard afterwards to even explain

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Speaker 3: what was funny about that. But in that moment, you

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Speaker 3: are so locked in 100% present and in the moment.

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Speaker 3: And that is, I think these days, very unfortunately rare

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Speaker 3: to have that complete 100% presence with another person where

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Speaker 3: they're not like half on their phone or half thinking

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Speaker 3: about something else. So that's the kind that I want,

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Speaker 3: the present, generous, authentic humor.

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Speaker 1: And so that gets to some of the benefits of

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Speaker 1: humor psychologically. Walk me through some of the ones that

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Speaker 1: you've talked about in your book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is where like you are an actual

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Speaker 3: researcher and academic.

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Speaker 1: I can do thumbs up or thumbs down depending on

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Speaker 1: the evidence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm a buffoon. So like I'm citing other people's research,

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Speaker 3: not my own. And so I just want to be

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Speaker 3: clear that I'm the clown in the room. There were

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Speaker 3: a few different psychological studies about when you present yourself

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Speaker 3: with humor and how that can affect how other people

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Speaker 3: view you. One of them was looking at people in

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Speaker 3: job interviews and they found that when someone acknowledged their shortcomings,

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Speaker 3: with humor, they were rated as more competent and more

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Speaker 3: desirable as an employee than if they didn't acknowledge them

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Speaker 3: or if they acknowledged them without humor. So the example

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Speaker 3: they gave in this paper was like, asked about their

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Speaker 3: math skills, they said, I'm good at addition and subtraction,

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Speaker 3: but I draw the line at division. It's like, okay, well,

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Speaker 3: if you're not actually able to divide, that may not

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Speaker 3: be the right job for you. But the fact that

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Speaker 3: you were able to laugh about it and to say like,

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Speaker 3: this is not my strongest suit, but it's not a

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Speaker 3: no-go area of discussion, that actually does indicate that you're

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Speaker 3: someone who's willing to take feedback and probably able to learn.

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Speaker 2: And so they were actually rated more highly.

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Speaker 3: And then my favorite job interview one is There was

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Speaker 3: an experiment where they had people evaluate job candidates and

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Speaker 3: they didn't know that they were actually evaluating research assistants.

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Speaker 3: And so, of course, everyone evaluated candidates who were qualified

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Speaker 3: for the job more highly than people who were unqualified

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Speaker 3: for the job. But one set of candidates pretended to

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Speaker 3: have spilled a cup of coffee on their shirt right

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Speaker 3: before they walked into the room. And so they came

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Speaker 3: in and they said, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: I just poured coffee all over my shirt. I am

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Speaker 3: so sorry.

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Speaker 2: And then they did the interview.

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Speaker 3: And those people, the people who had spilled the coffee

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Speaker 3: on their shirt were rated more highly than the confident

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Speaker 3: people who hadn't spilled coffee on their shirt. And I

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Speaker 3: think that to me hits at like one of the

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Speaker 3: things that I love the most about humor, which is

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Speaker 3: that we all as humans want to connect with other people.

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Speaker 3: And it's easier to connect with someone if they're willing

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Speaker 3: to be a little bit of a mess and laugh

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Speaker 3: about it. We still want them to be competent and

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Speaker 3: able to do their job. But if you meet someone

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Speaker 3: who's totally perfect, they're actually intimidating and you probably don't

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Speaker 3: really like them and connect with them. So I think humor,

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Speaker 3: especially about ourselves, can be a way for us to

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Speaker 3: connect with other people.

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Speaker 1: It also has all these physical benefits that we don't expect.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about this study on the assisted living facility

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Speaker 1: in Hong Kong that you talked about in your book.

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Speaker 3: When I was thinking about like, I want to write

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Speaker 3: about humor and I want to write about humor and

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Speaker 3: its relationship with health. One of the first things that

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Speaker 3: I wanted to say was people who say laughter is

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Speaker 3: the best medicine.

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Speaker 2: That is obviously wrong.

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Speaker 1: Chemotherapy is the best medicine for cancer.

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Speaker 3: Certainly way better than laughter. Like if you go in

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Speaker 3: and you're diagnosed with cancer and then they go, I

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Speaker 3: got great news. We have just a hilarious doctor here

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Speaker 3: for you.

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Speaker 2: You'd be like, I don't. I don't care that he's

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Speaker 2: hilarious or she's hilarious.

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Speaker 3: Can I please have like the most qualified, the most

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Speaker 3: effective doctor is really what I want, not someone who's

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Speaker 3: going to deliver the best punchlines. So I was thinking

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Speaker 3: about that and I was like, well, what is actually

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Speaker 3: the role of humor in medicine and health? And I

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Speaker 3: talked to this researcher who worked at a nursing home

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Speaker 3: in Hong Kong, Mimi Tse, and she was looking at

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Speaker 3: ways to improve outcomes in nursing home residents. And they

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Speaker 3: did this study where they looked at a group of

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Speaker 3: nursing home residents, and it gave them like a humor intervention.

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Speaker 3: And so what they were supposed to do is find

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Speaker 3: all the things that make you laugh, keep them in

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Speaker 3: a folder, and then you share them with a group.

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Speaker 3: And so you'll come together and share these with other

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Speaker 3: people and you'll all laugh. And they did this over

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Speaker 3: a course of weeks and they were meeting and they

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Speaker 3: were finding things that made them laugh and they were

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Speaker 3: sharing them with each other and they were watching funny

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Speaker 3: videos and things like that. And they found that at

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Speaker 3: the end of this study, there were meaningful decreases in

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Speaker 3: people's sense of isolation. there were meaningful increases in people's

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Speaker 3: enjoyment of life and their experience of pain was actually

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Speaker 3: lower than in the control group. So this is one

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Speaker 3: of the things that I think is actually like a

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Speaker 3: really meaningful medical outcome is people who were laughing more

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Speaker 3: and feeling more connected and having a better time, they

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Speaker 3: needed fewer doses of painkillers, which have all these negative

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Speaker 3: side effects as well.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like it cured them.

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Speaker 3: It didn't make them magically able to live independently or

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Speaker 3: not need to be in an assisted living facility, but

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Speaker 3: it made their lives better. And when I talked to

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Speaker 3: A lot of doctors, they said that if you can

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Speaker 3: change the way that we are experiencing a medical situation,

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Speaker 3: that is actually a really profound medical outcome.

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Speaker 2: And I think humor is really powerful at that.

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Speaker 1: So embracing humor not only improves our mental and emotional well-being,

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Speaker 1: it can also help us nail a job interview, make

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Speaker 1: our flaws seem more endearing, and even affect the way

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Speaker 1: we experience pain. But how can we get better at

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Speaker 1: bringing more laughter into our lives? especially at a time

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Speaker 1: when we're increasingly choosing our phones over real human connection.

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Speaker 1: Chris will share what he's learned when the Happiness Lab

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Speaker 1: returns from the break. I'm speaking with comedian Chris Duffy

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Speaker 1: about his new book, Humor Me. Now, you might think

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Speaker 1: that having a good sense of humor is all about

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Speaker 1: naturally being funny, knowing how to crack a joke or

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Speaker 1: deliver a solid punchline. But Chris argues that humor stems

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Speaker 1: from a set of skills that anyone can develop.

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Speaker 3: I think there's three pillars to good humor. The first

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Speaker 3: pillar is noticing things, being present and noticing the funny

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Speaker 3: and absurd in the world. The second pillar is laughing

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Speaker 3: at yourself, noticing the absurd and strange and delightful in yourself.

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Speaker 2: And being willing to laugh at it.

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Speaker 3: And then the third is putting yourself out there, taking

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Speaker 3: social risks to try to break out of your everyday

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Speaker 3: routine and also to risk being laughed at, to maybe

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Speaker 3: celebrate being laughed at and to share it with other people.

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Speaker 1: And so we're going to go through each of these

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Speaker 1: pillars one by one, starting with this idea of simply noticing.

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Speaker 1: And if I'm going to be honest, this one sounds easy,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like in the modern day is super hard.

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Speaker 1: There's so many distractions from the normal technology stuff like

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Speaker 1: our phones and so on, but also just being like

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Speaker 1: busy and having this capitalist mindset all the time of like,

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Speaker 1: I got to work, I got to get stuff done.

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Speaker 1: It just feels like there's not time to just simply notice.

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Speaker 1: And you and your book share this one solution to

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Speaker 1: simply notice more that I loved. You've called it the

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Speaker 1: new bathroom mindset. What is that?

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Speaker 3: I think that one of the biggest reasons why we

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Speaker 3: don't notice funny things or strange things or interesting things,

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Speaker 3: the reason why we don't notice things, period, is that

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Speaker 3: we often start to kind of blur the background. We

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Speaker 3: just go through our day and we're not actually noticing

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Speaker 3: the actual details of things around us. And so the

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Speaker 3: way that I think about this the most is. The

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Speaker 3: first time you go to a friend's house and you

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Speaker 3: go to their bathroom, you notice everything about their bathroom.

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Speaker 3: You notice where do they keep the toilet paper? Is

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Speaker 3: the roll going over the top? Is their toilet seat

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Speaker 3: like one of those soft, squishy ones that is like

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Speaker 3: meant to sit on for a really long time? And

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Speaker 3: do they sit on the toilet seat for a really

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Speaker 3: long time?

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Speaker 1: Wait, do people still have those? Aren't they just like

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Speaker 1: from the 70s?

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Speaker 2: I mean, certainly my grandma has one.

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Speaker 3: I guarantee you're going to hear from a listener who's like,

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Speaker 3: I have one and I love it. I'm listening to

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Speaker 3: this podcast on that padded toilet seat right now. Yeah. But,

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Speaker 3: you know, you find all these, like, do they have

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Speaker 3: a pile of books in their bathroom? Are those books

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Speaker 3: like weirdly wet and then dry? Like, how did they

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Speaker 3: get wet? And do you even want to know?

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Speaker 2: What kind of soap do they use? What's out in

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Speaker 2: the bathroom? What's hidden in the cabinets?

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Speaker 3: These are all things that you notice the first time

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Speaker 3: you go to a bathroom without trying to notice, right?

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Speaker 3: Just because it's new, we really notice that. And then

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Speaker 3: if you visit that friend's house three or four times,

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Speaker 3: you don't really see those things anymore. And so what

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Speaker 3: I try and do and what I encourage people to

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Speaker 3: do is to occasionally... get into the new bathroom mindset

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Speaker 3: where it's like, this is new. I'm going to actually

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Speaker 3: see what is on the floor. What are the knobs

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Speaker 3: on the drawers in my house? What are the switches like?

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Speaker 3: What's the tree outside? All of these things that you

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Speaker 3: might not necessarily notice. That is where you can see

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Speaker 3: strange and odd and kind of a little off things,

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Speaker 3: which are often the seeds of things that can make

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Speaker 3: you laugh or can make you think or make you

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Speaker 3: question or make you curious. And I think the more

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Speaker 3: that we can occasionally at least build that muscle of

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Speaker 3: switching into that and really seeing things, the more that

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Speaker 3: we could find delightful stuff all around us.

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Speaker 1: This is such a fabulous tip. And it's really similar

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Speaker 1: to a tip that we heard from a former guest

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Speaker 1: on the Happiness Lab, this poet Ross Gay, who wrote

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Speaker 1: this book called The Book of Delights, where he decided

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Speaker 1: that every day he would have to find one thing

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Speaker 1: that was sort of delightful. And he kind of just

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Speaker 1: had to start noticing the world in a new way

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Speaker 1: to find like, where's the delightful stuff out there? He

439
00:19:20,766 --> 00:19:23,256
Speaker 1: kind of opened up his delightfulness radar and And it

440
00:19:23,296 --> 00:19:25,576
Speaker 1: seems like you're just doing this generally. It's almost an

441
00:19:25,616 --> 00:19:28,356
Speaker 1: absurdity radar of like, what's the weird stuff? What's the

442
00:19:28,376 --> 00:19:30,796
Speaker 1: kind of smooshy toilet seat that's out there? And then

443
00:19:30,876 --> 00:19:32,336
Speaker 1: once you get that, you can use it as the

444
00:19:32,376 --> 00:19:34,536
Speaker 1: material for humor. Totally.

445
00:19:34,576 --> 00:19:36,096
Speaker 3: And I think this is the thing where, you know,

446
00:19:36,276 --> 00:19:37,746
Speaker 3: what makes you laugh is not going to be the

447
00:19:37,766 --> 00:19:39,866
Speaker 3: same thing that makes me laugh. It's very subjective. It's

448
00:19:39,886 --> 00:19:42,686
Speaker 3: very personal. But the way that I think about this is.

449
00:19:44,346 --> 00:19:46,396
Speaker 3: I watched a great, I swear this is going somewhere.

450
00:19:46,516 --> 00:19:49,096
Speaker 3: I watched a great documentary about birdwatching. It's called Listers.

451
00:19:49,116 --> 00:19:50,996
Speaker 3: I watched it on YouTube. It was so funny and fun.

452
00:19:51,396 --> 00:19:53,466
Speaker 3: And I was not a birder before. And I guess

453
00:19:53,486 --> 00:19:55,506
Speaker 3: I'm probably still not a birder, but I hadn't really

454
00:19:55,526 --> 00:19:57,346
Speaker 3: thought about birding. And then I watched this great documentary.

455
00:19:57,426 --> 00:20:01,056
Speaker 3: And afterwards I walked outside and I was astonished at

456
00:20:01,156 --> 00:20:02,136
Speaker 3: how many birds I heard.

457
00:20:02,276 --> 00:20:04,426
Speaker 1: It was like tweet, tweet, tweet, just birds around. Yeah.

458
00:20:04,906 --> 00:20:06,006
Speaker 3: And then I was like, am I in the middle

459
00:20:06,026 --> 00:20:07,946
Speaker 3: of some sort of special migration? Like, did they just

460
00:20:08,006 --> 00:20:09,866
Speaker 3: show up? And no, it was just those birds had

461
00:20:09,966 --> 00:20:11,666
Speaker 3: always been there, but I had never noticed because I

462
00:20:11,686 --> 00:20:13,186
Speaker 3: wasn't trying to notice them at all.

463
00:20:13,406 --> 00:20:14,546
Speaker 2: I wasn't cued to notice them.

464
00:20:14,886 --> 00:20:17,446
Speaker 3: And I really think that humor or delight, like Ross

465
00:20:17,466 --> 00:20:19,296
Speaker 3: Gay was talking about, that these are kind of similar

466
00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:22,576
Speaker 3: things where it is out there. But the more that

467
00:20:22,596 --> 00:20:25,016
Speaker 3: you think about it, the more that you consciously look

468
00:20:25,056 --> 00:20:27,516
Speaker 3: around for it, the more that you build the ability

469
00:20:27,536 --> 00:20:29,116
Speaker 3: to see it and to know where to look for it.

470
00:20:29,126 --> 00:20:31,226
Speaker 3: And you start finding more and more of the particular

471
00:20:31,246 --> 00:20:33,286
Speaker 3: thing that makes you laugh. And maybe it's for me.

472
00:20:33,446 --> 00:20:36,046
Speaker 3: I love signs. I love like a weird handwritten sign.

473
00:20:36,606 --> 00:20:38,306
Speaker 3: Like that person is putting up a sign for their life.

474
00:20:38,926 --> 00:20:42,936
Speaker 3: handmade shoe party. What a strange thing. I can't imagine

475
00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:44,916
Speaker 3: what that would even be. And the more that I

476
00:20:45,096 --> 00:20:46,756
Speaker 3: find that, the more that it just like leads to

477
00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:47,976
Speaker 3: me finding more and more of them. And I think

478
00:20:47,996 --> 00:20:50,716
Speaker 3: that's true for anyone is if you just tune into

479
00:20:50,756 --> 00:20:53,176
Speaker 3: this stuff, you start to see that it actually is there.

480
00:20:53,796 --> 00:20:55,886
Speaker 1: Another thing you suggest we clue in on are weird

481
00:20:56,096 --> 00:20:58,406
Speaker 1: facts about the world. How does this work? And what

482
00:20:58,446 --> 00:21:00,826
Speaker 1: are some examples of weird facts you've noticed recently?

483
00:21:01,336 --> 00:21:02,776
Speaker 3: One of the people who makes me laugh the most

484
00:21:02,986 --> 00:21:06,206
Speaker 3: in the entire world is, is Annie Ruerda, who runs

485
00:21:06,306 --> 00:21:08,866
Speaker 3: depths of Wikipedia for people who are not familiar. She

486
00:21:08,966 --> 00:21:13,106
Speaker 3: finds facts and articles on Wikipedia that are very funny

487
00:21:13,146 --> 00:21:15,606
Speaker 3: and unusual or strange, and then just kind of collects

488
00:21:15,646 --> 00:21:17,326
Speaker 3: them and posts them publicly and sends them out in

489
00:21:17,376 --> 00:21:17,836
Speaker 3: a newsletter.

490
00:21:17,856 --> 00:21:19,916
Speaker 2: And she does a live show where she shows them too.

491
00:21:20,216 --> 00:21:22,786
Speaker 3: And I interviewed Annie for the book and, um, I

492
00:21:22,806 --> 00:21:24,346
Speaker 3: was like, I think you're one of the greatest comedians

493
00:21:24,366 --> 00:21:26,386
Speaker 3: of our time. Like Depths of Wikipedia is so funny.

494
00:21:26,546 --> 00:21:28,806
Speaker 3: And she's like, oh, I'm not a comedian. I'm like

495
00:21:28,866 --> 00:21:31,686
Speaker 3: a librarian, an archivist. I'm just looking at facts. And

496
00:21:31,706 --> 00:21:33,926
Speaker 3: then I am delighted by the facts that I find.

497
00:21:34,106 --> 00:21:35,746
Speaker 3: But I don't think of myself as a comedian at all.

498
00:21:36,166 --> 00:21:38,766
Speaker 3: And I was actually amazed because I think she's so

499
00:21:38,866 --> 00:21:41,186
Speaker 3: incredibly funny. She said that the other day she had

500
00:21:41,206 --> 00:21:45,976
Speaker 3: been correcting like a common comma error, grammatical comma error

501
00:21:46,026 --> 00:21:47,896
Speaker 3: on Wikipedia and just like trying to fix as many

502
00:21:47,916 --> 00:21:49,796
Speaker 3: of them as she could on the website. And it

503
00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:52,576
Speaker 3: had led her to fixing a comma error on the

504
00:21:52,596 --> 00:21:54,636
Speaker 3: web page of a type of fish that was called

505
00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:57,376
Speaker 3: Oreo somatidae. And she thought, that's so funny that it

506
00:21:57,416 --> 00:21:59,306
Speaker 3: has the word Oreo like the cookie in it. And

507
00:21:59,346 --> 00:22:01,186
Speaker 3: then she looked at the fish and she said, its

508
00:22:01,206 --> 00:22:03,466
Speaker 3: eye looks like an Oreo cookie. Is that why it

509
00:22:03,506 --> 00:22:06,306
Speaker 3: was named that? That alone really was delightful to her

510
00:22:06,346 --> 00:22:09,106
Speaker 3: that there was Oreo cookie eye fish. And she said,

511
00:22:09,146 --> 00:22:11,576
Speaker 3: that's kind of a way that she finds things that

512
00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:14,196
Speaker 3: make her laugh is to just be open to the

513
00:22:14,236 --> 00:22:17,416
Speaker 3: idea that she's doing some really mundane, not funny task

514
00:22:17,816 --> 00:22:20,206
Speaker 3: and something odd or strange can come up and she

515
00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:20,656
Speaker 3: can find it.

516
00:22:21,366 --> 00:22:23,186
Speaker 1: And this is related to another tip you had, which

517
00:22:23,246 --> 00:22:26,026
Speaker 1: is this idea of celebrating the doll. Why is like

518
00:22:26,326 --> 00:22:28,386
Speaker 1: really celebrating the doll so powerful?

519
00:22:29,106 --> 00:22:32,226
Speaker 3: One of the biggest objections that people have when I

520
00:22:32,266 --> 00:22:34,876
Speaker 3: tell them like you can find something really funny everywhere,

521
00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:37,716
Speaker 3: no matter where you are, is, well, I live somewhere

522
00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:41,386
Speaker 3: really boring. And the example that I love to give them,

523
00:22:41,406 --> 00:22:44,946
Speaker 3: because I think it's such a masterclass in finding comedy anywhere,

524
00:22:45,006 --> 00:22:47,436
Speaker 3: is the Dull Men's Club, which has now been opened

525
00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:50,436
Speaker 3: up to people of all genders worldwide. They call themselves dullsters,

526
00:22:50,716 --> 00:22:53,856
Speaker 3: like the opposite of hipsters. And they celebrate doing things

527
00:22:53,896 --> 00:22:58,606
Speaker 3: like watching grass grow. watching paint dry, collecting paper clips.

528
00:22:59,026 --> 00:23:02,016
Speaker 3: They have a calendar that they release each year, which

529
00:23:02,116 --> 00:23:05,896
Speaker 3: features 12 dull men doing dull things like correcting the

530
00:23:05,956 --> 00:23:09,346
Speaker 3: paint on median parking strips, like those kinds of things.

531
00:23:09,426 --> 00:23:13,346
Speaker 3: It's just A truly fantastic example of sometimes the humor

532
00:23:13,386 --> 00:23:16,006
Speaker 3: comes from the fact that it is so exceptionally boring.

533
00:23:16,346 --> 00:23:18,546
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be interesting funny. It can be

534
00:23:18,646 --> 00:23:22,156
Speaker 3: so boring that it is in itself becomes really funny.

535
00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:24,556
Speaker 3: So like if you are literally watching paint dry, I

536
00:23:24,576 --> 00:23:27,416
Speaker 3: would argue that that has become hilarious and interesting.

537
00:23:27,716 --> 00:23:30,316
Speaker 1: It's like next level comedy because it's so unfunny that

538
00:23:30,336 --> 00:23:31,256
Speaker 1: it has now become funny.

539
00:23:31,586 --> 00:23:34,486
Speaker 3: And also like what could be more profoundly the opposite

540
00:23:34,646 --> 00:23:37,566
Speaker 3: of losing three hours into the TikTok algorithm where it's

541
00:23:37,586 --> 00:23:40,246
Speaker 3: like designed to be as stimulating as possible? What could

542
00:23:40,266 --> 00:23:43,076
Speaker 3: be more of a powerful detox than like literally painting

543
00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:45,836
Speaker 3: a wall and just watching it dry for three hours instead?

544
00:23:45,856 --> 00:23:48,636
Speaker 1: OK, so one of my favorite ridiculous things like this

545
00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:51,056
Speaker 1: on the Internet, I'm not sure if you participated in this,

546
00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:55,926
Speaker 1: was the rubber band on the watermelon Internet situation where

547
00:23:56,556 --> 00:23:59,776
Speaker 1: Folks were live streaming, slowly putting more and more rubber

548
00:23:59,796 --> 00:24:02,556
Speaker 1: bands on a watermelon until it broke, which like the

549
00:24:02,596 --> 00:24:05,026
Speaker 1: breaking of the watermelon is a wonderful moment. But I

550
00:24:05,066 --> 00:24:07,106
Speaker 1: think what was more funny was like, you knew that

551
00:24:07,146 --> 00:24:10,866
Speaker 1: this was going to take days, weeks, maybe. And a

552
00:24:10,886 --> 00:24:12,606
Speaker 1: lot of it was just like watching people put rubber

553
00:24:12,646 --> 00:24:14,686
Speaker 1: bands on this watermelon. Mostly it was unfunny for a

554
00:24:14,706 --> 00:24:15,086
Speaker 1: long time.

555
00:24:15,466 --> 00:24:17,946
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that stuff is incredible. I think there's

556
00:24:17,986 --> 00:24:21,536
Speaker 3: a reason why things like that take off. And I

557
00:24:21,556 --> 00:24:26,006
Speaker 3: think it's because we... are really entertained by the delightful

558
00:24:26,066 --> 00:24:28,976
Speaker 3: and the odd. There's also something really countercultural about being like,

559
00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:32,056
Speaker 3: we're going to celebrate the dull and the simple. There

560
00:24:32,096 --> 00:24:35,926
Speaker 3: are two big social and cultural messages that are really

561
00:24:36,306 --> 00:24:38,806
Speaker 3: dangerous and damaging that I think humor can undercut. And

562
00:24:38,826 --> 00:24:40,946
Speaker 3: the first one is you are supposed to be perfect.

563
00:24:41,406 --> 00:24:43,176
Speaker 3: And I think humor can undercut that and make us

564
00:24:43,256 --> 00:24:45,176
Speaker 3: celebrate the ways in which we are a mess and

565
00:24:45,216 --> 00:24:47,216
Speaker 3: we are not perfect. And actually, that is what connects

566
00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:48,976
Speaker 3: us to other people, is the fact that we're not perfect.

567
00:24:49,016 --> 00:24:49,536
Speaker 2: So that's one.

568
00:24:50,156 --> 00:24:52,706
Speaker 3: And then the second is that like things need to

569
00:24:52,816 --> 00:24:55,046
Speaker 3: be exciting all the time.

570
00:24:55,506 --> 00:24:55,646
Speaker 1: Right.

571
00:24:55,806 --> 00:24:57,906
Speaker 3: Like if you want to have a meaningful experience, that

572
00:24:57,926 --> 00:25:00,086
Speaker 3: it has to be exciting and different and new. And

573
00:25:00,126 --> 00:25:03,006
Speaker 3: in fact, if you and some friends get together and

574
00:25:03,026 --> 00:25:06,236
Speaker 3: start putting together rubber bands on a watermelon, you can

575
00:25:06,356 --> 00:25:11,446
Speaker 3: build an incredible memory, a really meaningful bonding experience that

576
00:25:11,466 --> 00:25:12,686
Speaker 3: you will think about for the rest of your life.

577
00:25:12,826 --> 00:25:16,726
Speaker 3: And there is nothing like exciting or profound or amazing

578
00:25:16,746 --> 00:25:18,746
Speaker 3: about that, except for the fact that you're together and

579
00:25:18,786 --> 00:25:21,406
Speaker 3: experiencing it. It doesn't have to be like we have

580
00:25:21,486 --> 00:25:23,746
Speaker 3: thousands of dollars to go on a trip to Europe

581
00:25:23,826 --> 00:25:24,526
Speaker 3: or we're going.

582
00:25:24,446 --> 00:25:26,686
Speaker 2: To make a music video that goes viral.

583
00:25:26,706 --> 00:25:28,216
Speaker 3: Right. It could literally just be like we are going

584
00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:29,696
Speaker 3: to see if we can bounce a ping pong ball

585
00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:31,676
Speaker 3: into a cup like that's going to be the day

586
00:25:31,716 --> 00:25:33,076
Speaker 3: and that's going to be an incredible thing for us.

587
00:25:34,146 --> 00:25:36,446
Speaker 1: And so that's pillar number one. We need to notice

588
00:25:36,726 --> 00:25:39,506
Speaker 1: stuff and especially notice the absurd stuff. Now we're going

589
00:25:39,526 --> 00:25:41,856
Speaker 1: to turn to pillar number two, which is related to

590
00:25:41,896 --> 00:25:45,036
Speaker 1: that perfectionism point. The second pillar of humor is this

591
00:25:45,096 --> 00:25:47,396
Speaker 1: idea that we need to laugh at ourselves. Why is

592
00:25:47,476 --> 00:25:49,756
Speaker 1: laughing at ourselves so beneficial psychologically?

593
00:25:51,056 --> 00:25:53,936
Speaker 3: I think it is exactly because of the idea that

594
00:25:53,976 --> 00:25:56,316
Speaker 3: we should not be perfect, that in fact, people like

595
00:25:56,356 --> 00:25:58,276
Speaker 3: us more if we are not perfect and are relatable.

596
00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:01,206
Speaker 3: So I think when you can laugh at yourself, when

597
00:26:01,226 --> 00:26:05,026
Speaker 3: you can see your flaws as ways that other people

598
00:26:05,046 --> 00:26:07,706
Speaker 3: can connect to you, things that are funny and things

599
00:26:07,726 --> 00:26:10,866
Speaker 3: that are delightful rather than shameful, it one, takes all

600
00:26:10,886 --> 00:26:11,706
Speaker 3: this pressure off you.

601
00:26:12,006 --> 00:26:14,086
Speaker 2: And two, it actually is the way to connect with

602
00:26:14,126 --> 00:26:16,396
Speaker 2: other people in a deeper way. Let me give you

603
00:26:16,416 --> 00:26:18,056
Speaker 2: an example. This is the one that I think about

604
00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:18,316
Speaker 2: the most.

605
00:26:19,446 --> 00:26:21,346
Speaker 3: And this is funny talking to you because, Laurie, I

606
00:26:21,366 --> 00:26:23,666
Speaker 3: think you do a really good job of being a

607
00:26:23,706 --> 00:26:27,426
Speaker 3: person who is still able to be connected to, even

608
00:26:27,466 --> 00:26:31,206
Speaker 3: though you are a wildly successful and very impressive person.

609
00:26:31,466 --> 00:26:32,946
Speaker 1: Even though I'm really important. Is that what you're saying?

610
00:26:33,046 --> 00:26:36,286
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're very important. You're very successful. I mean, you are.

611
00:26:36,346 --> 00:26:39,766
Speaker 3: You're like, you are very smart and very successful. And

612
00:26:39,976 --> 00:26:42,536
Speaker 3: you have a lot of like institutional power and all

613
00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:44,896
Speaker 3: of these things. And yet you are still able to

614
00:26:44,936 --> 00:26:46,256
Speaker 3: be connected with. And I think a lot of that

615
00:26:46,296 --> 00:26:48,546
Speaker 3: comes from the fact that you have You're generous with

616
00:26:48,566 --> 00:26:49,086
Speaker 3: your laughter.

617
00:26:49,146 --> 00:26:50,046
Speaker 1: I screw up all the time.

618
00:26:50,066 --> 00:26:52,366
Speaker 2: And you're generous with that, though. And I think that's

619
00:26:52,386 --> 00:26:53,546
Speaker 2: a good thing, not a negative thing.

620
00:26:53,586 --> 00:26:55,726
Speaker 3: Like if you walk into a party and you see

621
00:26:55,746 --> 00:26:58,366
Speaker 3: a person and they go, I make a million dollars

622
00:26:58,406 --> 00:27:00,276
Speaker 3: a year. Both of my kids went to Harvard. I

623
00:27:00,286 --> 00:27:03,336
Speaker 3: have a six pack. I volunteer every single day and

624
00:27:03,436 --> 00:27:05,876
Speaker 3: I'm changing people's lives. But also I'm going back to

625
00:27:05,916 --> 00:27:07,876
Speaker 3: school to become a brain surgeon. And I just developed

626
00:27:07,916 --> 00:27:10,896
Speaker 3: a new technology that can save people every single day.

627
00:27:11,116 --> 00:27:12,156
Speaker 2: And did I mention that.

628
00:27:12,056 --> 00:27:14,676
Speaker 3: Also I drive an all electric car and I compost

629
00:27:14,696 --> 00:27:16,676
Speaker 3: all of my food and I don't waste anything like.

630
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:20,156
Speaker 3: you would at best be really intimidated by that person, right?

631
00:27:20,416 --> 00:27:22,436
Speaker 3: And at worst, you'd be like, I hate that guy.

632
00:27:22,456 --> 00:27:24,706
Speaker 3: I never want to see that guy again. He's my

633
00:27:24,736 --> 00:27:26,426
Speaker 3: least favorite person I've ever met because he makes me

634
00:27:26,466 --> 00:27:29,026
Speaker 3: feel bad about myself. The flip side is like, if

635
00:27:29,066 --> 00:27:31,686
Speaker 3: you meet a person who is like, Hey, there's things

636
00:27:31,706 --> 00:27:33,216
Speaker 3: that I'm good at and there's things that I'm bad at,

637
00:27:33,266 --> 00:27:35,786
Speaker 3: and I'm totally a mess. And, um, I have to

638
00:27:35,866 --> 00:27:37,166
Speaker 3: ask you a question. I know we just met, but

639
00:27:37,646 --> 00:27:39,246
Speaker 3: is there a giant piece of spinach in my teeth?

640
00:27:39,286 --> 00:27:41,246
Speaker 3: Because I'm pretty sure there's a giant piece of spinach.

641
00:27:41,046 --> 00:27:41,416
Speaker 2: In my teeth.

642
00:27:41,676 --> 00:27:43,796
Speaker 3: You're so much more likely to like that person because

643
00:27:43,816 --> 00:27:47,056
Speaker 3: they're relatable and they're able to be laughed at and

644
00:27:47,076 --> 00:27:49,416
Speaker 3: laughed with. But here's the thing that I think we

645
00:27:49,496 --> 00:27:51,976
Speaker 3: often get wrong is like, we see that in other people,

646
00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:54,456
Speaker 3: but then we think we should be the first. We're like, well,

647
00:27:54,576 --> 00:27:56,526
Speaker 3: I should be as impressive as possible. And I should

648
00:27:56,546 --> 00:27:58,026
Speaker 3: be as perfect as possible. And I should have as

649
00:27:58,176 --> 00:28:00,536
Speaker 3: few flaws as possible. That's how other people will like me,

650
00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:03,136
Speaker 3: even though we know we don't like that person. You know,

651
00:28:03,176 --> 00:28:04,736
Speaker 3: I walked outside the other day, I have two young

652
00:28:04,776 --> 00:28:06,576
Speaker 3: kids and I was like saying hi to people in

653
00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:08,196
Speaker 3: the street while I was walking my kids around. And

654
00:28:08,216 --> 00:28:09,936
Speaker 3: then I came home and realized my hair is like

655
00:28:10,076 --> 00:28:12,186
Speaker 3: truly standing straight up on end.

656
00:28:12,226 --> 00:28:13,346
Speaker 2: Like I was electrocuted.

657
00:28:13,406 --> 00:28:17,686
Speaker 3: Like I could not look more bizarre and unfit for

658
00:28:17,846 --> 00:28:20,126
Speaker 3: public consumption. I was wondering like, why are people giving

659
00:28:20,146 --> 00:28:21,646
Speaker 3: me funny looks when they say hi back? And then

660
00:28:21,666 --> 00:28:23,886
Speaker 3: I came back and I was like, Oh, that's why.

661
00:28:24,266 --> 00:28:26,776
Speaker 3: And I think that could be a really shameful moment.

662
00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:28,516
Speaker 3: I could be like, I can't believe I went outside.

663
00:28:28,556 --> 00:28:30,576
Speaker 3: I'll never be able to face the neighbors again. Or

664
00:28:30,616 --> 00:28:32,596
Speaker 3: I can laugh at it and be like, yep, I

665
00:28:32,636 --> 00:28:34,396
Speaker 3: got two kids and I woke up early and I

666
00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:36,456
Speaker 3: forgot that it had been several hours and I still

667
00:28:36,476 --> 00:28:37,816
Speaker 3: hadn't showered or combed my hair.

668
00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:40,076
Speaker 2: And laughing about it makes me feel better.

669
00:28:40,096 --> 00:28:42,146
Speaker 3: But I guarantee you, it also makes the neighbors feel

670
00:28:42,166 --> 00:28:44,026
Speaker 3: more like they could talk to me and not like

671
00:28:44,066 --> 00:28:46,986
Speaker 3: I'm like some intimidating superhuman, which, again, I don't think

672
00:28:47,006 --> 00:28:49,326
Speaker 3: there's any risk of them thinking that. But that's the

673
00:28:49,346 --> 00:28:51,106
Speaker 3: reality is that we connect to people through these flaws.

674
00:28:51,786 --> 00:28:54,006
Speaker 1: And it seems like we also connect to ourselves better.

675
00:28:54,026 --> 00:28:55,446
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned this idea of like, I could

676
00:28:55,466 --> 00:28:57,866
Speaker 1: have been shameful about the hair looking stupid. It seems

677
00:28:57,886 --> 00:29:00,766
Speaker 1: like one thing humor helps us do is to laugh

678
00:29:00,806 --> 00:29:04,386
Speaker 1: at ourselves with self-compassion. It helps us feel less shameful.

679
00:29:04,906 --> 00:29:06,206
Speaker 1: Is that the kind of thing that you've seen in

680
00:29:06,226 --> 00:29:06,786
Speaker 1: some of your work?

681
00:29:07,626 --> 00:29:08,386
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think.

682
00:29:10,166 --> 00:29:11,886
Speaker 3: The only reason I'm hesitating right now is because I

683
00:29:11,926 --> 00:29:13,546
Speaker 3: don't want to say like we should laugh at ourselves

684
00:29:13,606 --> 00:29:16,066
Speaker 3: and then not strive to be better. It's not like

685
00:29:16,446 --> 00:29:18,606
Speaker 3: laugh and then you don't have to fix your glaring

686
00:29:18,676 --> 00:29:22,306
Speaker 3: personality flaw. But I think that If we laugh about it,

687
00:29:23,156 --> 00:29:25,716
Speaker 3: often the laughing is acknowledging that it's a thing. And

688
00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:28,116
Speaker 3: when we acknowledge that it is a thing that maybe

689
00:29:28,176 --> 00:29:30,856
Speaker 3: is like something that is not our finest moment or

690
00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:34,406
Speaker 3: our strongest personality suit, if we laugh about it, I

691
00:29:34,426 --> 00:29:36,486
Speaker 3: think that lets us acknowledge it in a way that

692
00:29:36,926 --> 00:29:38,366
Speaker 3: actually allows us to work on it.

693
00:29:38,546 --> 00:29:40,426
Speaker 2: You know, shame rarely leads to action.

694
00:29:40,546 --> 00:29:42,246
Speaker 3: And so I think the fact that we can laugh

695
00:29:42,286 --> 00:29:45,486
Speaker 3: and say like, oh boy, I have not showered as

696
00:29:45,546 --> 00:29:48,036
Speaker 3: much as I would like to shower, then can be like, OK,

697
00:29:48,236 --> 00:29:51,056
Speaker 3: I'm going to try and find a time where I'm

698
00:29:51,076 --> 00:29:53,236
Speaker 3: going to say, hey, can you watch the kids for

699
00:29:53,276 --> 00:29:54,696
Speaker 3: one second while I jump in the shower? Because I

700
00:29:54,696 --> 00:29:56,956
Speaker 3: don't want to have a repeat of the electric shock

701
00:29:57,316 --> 00:29:59,696
Speaker 3: hair thing. And that's a small, like low stakes example.

702
00:29:59,716 --> 00:30:01,856
Speaker 3: But I think there's way bigger, higher stakes examples that

703
00:30:01,886 --> 00:30:03,286
Speaker 3: you can apply this to as well.

704
00:30:04,106 --> 00:30:06,686
Speaker 1: So that's the power of acknowledging some of our imperfections.

705
00:30:06,726 --> 00:30:09,066
Speaker 1: We notice them and want to do something. I worry

706
00:30:09,106 --> 00:30:11,086
Speaker 1: sometimes we swing the pendulum too far in the other

707
00:30:11,126 --> 00:30:14,186
Speaker 1: direction where we're not just acknowledging our flaws, but kind

708
00:30:14,206 --> 00:30:17,586
Speaker 1: of bullying ourselves about our flaws. And so any advice

709
00:30:17,646 --> 00:30:21,006
Speaker 1: for being able to laugh at ourselves and use self-deprecation

710
00:30:21,066 --> 00:30:22,876
Speaker 1: without turning that into self-bullying?

711
00:30:23,566 --> 00:30:27,076
Speaker 3: I think you probably encounter this a lot on this podcast.

712
00:30:27,116 --> 00:30:28,816
Speaker 3: And I know that I have encountered a lot in

713
00:30:28,856 --> 00:30:32,716
Speaker 3: my work, too, which is that often the most powerful

714
00:30:32,736 --> 00:30:35,996
Speaker 3: thing advice, the things that are most impactful aren't universal.

715
00:30:36,156 --> 00:30:37,856
Speaker 3: It's not like one size fits all. So I can't

716
00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:39,916
Speaker 3: really say like, this is the way that you should

717
00:30:39,936 --> 00:30:42,356
Speaker 3: laugh at yourself that will never be self-bullying. And this

718
00:30:42,406 --> 00:30:44,226
Speaker 3: is the way that's always positive because it is going

719
00:30:44,366 --> 00:30:46,546
Speaker 3: to vary from person to person. I can give you

720
00:30:46,566 --> 00:30:48,406
Speaker 3: a kind of like a framework of a way to

721
00:30:48,546 --> 00:30:50,666
Speaker 3: think about testing it. But I do think you need

722
00:30:50,706 --> 00:30:53,186
Speaker 3: to realize that like it's going to vary from how

723
00:30:53,246 --> 00:30:54,846
Speaker 3: someone else does it. And it also might vary from

724
00:30:55,166 --> 00:30:56,696
Speaker 3: how you do it today to how you do it

725
00:30:56,736 --> 00:30:59,676
Speaker 3: tomorrow or in a year, right? Like we are more

726
00:30:59,736 --> 00:31:01,676
Speaker 3: or less sensitive about certain things. We are more or

727
00:31:01,696 --> 00:31:04,576
Speaker 3: less confident about certain things day to day. So the

728
00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:06,916
Speaker 3: test that I would say is, are you laughing in

729
00:31:06,936 --> 00:31:10,286
Speaker 3: a way that is creating an opportunity for connection? Or

730
00:31:10,426 --> 00:31:13,026
Speaker 3: are you laughing at yourself in a way that is

731
00:31:13,406 --> 00:31:15,426
Speaker 3: trying to say the mean thing before someone else can

732
00:31:15,466 --> 00:31:17,186
Speaker 3: say it? And are you doing it in a way

733
00:31:17,206 --> 00:31:20,206
Speaker 3: that is like, if someone else said it to another person,

734
00:31:20,246 --> 00:31:21,916
Speaker 3: would you think that they were being a bully? I'll

735
00:31:21,936 --> 00:31:25,006
Speaker 3: give you an example is, the comedian Aparna Nancherla told

736
00:31:25,046 --> 00:31:27,906
Speaker 3: me that she used to open her comedy sets by saying,

737
00:31:28,186 --> 00:31:31,306
Speaker 3: I know, I'm also surprised that I'm a comedian. And

738
00:31:31,906 --> 00:31:33,746
Speaker 3: when Aparna said that, she told me like, she originally

739
00:31:33,806 --> 00:31:36,136
Speaker 3: meant it as like, well, I'm a shy introvert. And like,

740
00:31:36,156 --> 00:31:37,836
Speaker 3: that's what I mean. It's like, I'm surprised that I'm

741
00:31:37,876 --> 00:31:40,136
Speaker 3: out here telling jokes because I'm a shy introvert. But

742
00:31:40,276 --> 00:31:42,656
Speaker 3: she realized that a lot of audiences were laughing because

743
00:31:42,676 --> 00:31:46,116
Speaker 3: they were like, it's funny because you are a small

744
00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:49,096
Speaker 3: Indian woman. And she didn't want to be making fun

745
00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:50,916
Speaker 3: of herself in that way to say like, I shouldn't

746
00:31:50,956 --> 00:31:52,686
Speaker 3: be here because that's not what a comedian is supposed

747
00:31:52,706 --> 00:31:54,826
Speaker 3: to be. And she also realized, like, maybe I don't

748
00:31:54,846 --> 00:31:56,346
Speaker 3: even want to say I shouldn't be here because I'm

749
00:31:56,366 --> 00:31:58,346
Speaker 3: an introvert. Maybe I want to just own the fact that, like,

750
00:31:58,446 --> 00:32:00,846
Speaker 3: I'm here. And so she stopped doing that joke. She

751
00:32:00,866 --> 00:32:02,786
Speaker 3: stopped telling that joke because she realized it actually was

752
00:32:02,806 --> 00:32:05,546
Speaker 3: like creating a narrative and bullying herself in a way

753
00:32:05,566 --> 00:32:09,106
Speaker 3: that she did not want to do. And I think

754
00:32:09,126 --> 00:32:12,766
Speaker 3: that's important to realize. So think about, like, are you

755
00:32:13,446 --> 00:32:17,426
Speaker 3: bringing people in or are you pushing people away from

756
00:32:17,486 --> 00:32:18,996
Speaker 3: acknowledging the thing about yourself?

757
00:32:20,216 --> 00:32:22,676
Speaker 1: It's time for another break. But when we return, Chris

758
00:32:22,696 --> 00:32:25,436
Speaker 1: will break down the third and final pillar of good humor,

759
00:32:25,896 --> 00:32:28,956
Speaker 1: taking social risks. And then it will be my turn

760
00:32:28,996 --> 00:32:31,096
Speaker 1: to take a risk, as Chris puts me through a

761
00:32:31,116 --> 00:32:34,546
Speaker 1: live improv comedy exercise. The Happiness Lab will be.

762
00:32:34,526 --> 00:32:35,506
Speaker 2: Back in a moment.

763
00:32:44,026 --> 00:32:47,516
Speaker 1: Your book argues that humor is all about taking social risks.

764
00:32:47,976 --> 00:32:50,696
Speaker 1: But why is humor so socially risky? And can you

765
00:32:50,736 --> 00:32:51,996
Speaker 1: share some examples?

766
00:32:52,536 --> 00:32:55,346
Speaker 2: I think this is probably one of the most cited

767
00:32:55,386 --> 00:32:56,386
Speaker 2: things in your field.

768
00:32:56,426 --> 00:32:58,586
Speaker 3: And I bet people bring up this all the time

769
00:32:58,626 --> 00:33:00,526
Speaker 3: on this podcast, which is research that shows that if

770
00:33:00,546 --> 00:33:01,746
Speaker 3: you talk to a stranger on the bus, you're going

771
00:33:01,766 --> 00:33:02,986
Speaker 3: to have a better day and that they'll have a

772
00:33:03,006 --> 00:33:03,506
Speaker 3: better day too.

773
00:33:04,086 --> 00:33:04,266
Speaker 2: Okay.

774
00:33:04,746 --> 00:33:07,206
Speaker 3: Everyone hears that study and they go, that sounds good

775
00:33:07,326 --> 00:33:09,286
Speaker 3: for you. There's no way I'm talking to a stranger

776
00:33:09,326 --> 00:33:12,856
Speaker 3: on the bus. That's too weird. And yet it's true

777
00:33:12,896 --> 00:33:14,236
Speaker 3: that you will have a better day if you do it.

778
00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:16,236
Speaker 3: So that's like a very clear example of taking a

779
00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:18,936
Speaker 3: small social risk, talking to someone you wouldn't necessarily talk to.

780
00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:21,156
Speaker 3: And I think one of the biggest things that can

781
00:33:21,236 --> 00:33:23,976
Speaker 3: stop you from finding humor and from laughing more and

782
00:33:24,016 --> 00:33:26,276
Speaker 3: from having delight in your life is just doing things

783
00:33:26,496 --> 00:33:28,756
Speaker 3: that you always do, right? Like you commute in the

784
00:33:28,776 --> 00:33:31,226
Speaker 3: exact same way. You never see anything different. You always

785
00:33:31,266 --> 00:33:32,846
Speaker 3: take the same train. You get off at the same stop.

786
00:33:32,866 --> 00:33:34,266
Speaker 3: You walk the same way or you always take the

787
00:33:34,306 --> 00:33:36,796
Speaker 3: same road to the highway to the exit. It's just,

788
00:33:37,456 --> 00:33:39,996
Speaker 3: you know it so well. And it is almost impossible

789
00:33:40,016 --> 00:33:41,976
Speaker 3: for that to not totally blur into the background unless

790
00:33:41,996 --> 00:33:45,046
Speaker 3: you're really, really fighting hard. And so the social risk

791
00:33:45,066 --> 00:33:47,326
Speaker 3: that you might take might be the smallest social risk

792
00:33:47,346 --> 00:33:49,026
Speaker 3: of all. It might be just doing things a little

793
00:33:49,066 --> 00:33:52,286
Speaker 3: differently so that there's an element of novelty and adventure

794
00:33:52,326 --> 00:33:56,486
Speaker 3: and excitement. And that can often lead to sparking something

795
00:33:56,626 --> 00:33:58,886
Speaker 3: funny or strange or delightful where you see something that

796
00:33:58,906 --> 00:34:00,886
Speaker 3: you haven't seen before because you get off at a

797
00:34:00,906 --> 00:34:03,046
Speaker 3: different stop and you're walking back and you go, has.

798
00:34:02,946 --> 00:34:04,696
Speaker 2: That been there all along?

799
00:34:05,356 --> 00:34:07,816
Speaker 3: One thing that I try and do is if people

800
00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:11,416
Speaker 3: invite me to a thing that sounds strange, then I'm like,

801
00:34:11,796 --> 00:34:13,676
Speaker 3: I'm going to go to that. My friends invited me

802
00:34:13,736 --> 00:34:16,396
Speaker 3: to a gathering of owners of Golden Doodles. It was

803
00:34:16,416 --> 00:34:19,116
Speaker 3: called a doodle romp. And I do not own a

804
00:34:19,176 --> 00:34:21,506
Speaker 3: golden doodle. So my natural inclination would be to say,

805
00:34:21,746 --> 00:34:24,026
Speaker 3: thank you so much. The social gathering that is exclusively

806
00:34:24,046 --> 00:34:25,706
Speaker 3: for owners of this one particular type of dog.

807
00:34:25,946 --> 00:34:28,026
Speaker 2: Probably not for me. I don't even own a dog

808
00:34:28,046 --> 00:34:28,316
Speaker 2: at all.

809
00:34:28,856 --> 00:34:30,556
Speaker 3: And instead I was like, I'm going to the doodle

810
00:34:30,576 --> 00:34:33,136
Speaker 3: romp and I'm going to experience golden doodle culture. And

811
00:34:33,176 --> 00:34:36,436
Speaker 3: I went and it was so funny and strange because

812
00:34:36,546 --> 00:34:38,666
Speaker 3: to me, it was just like all these identical dogs

813
00:34:39,026 --> 00:34:40,646
Speaker 3: running and jumping around on each other. And all of

814
00:34:40,666 --> 00:34:42,786
Speaker 3: the owners like apologizing that their dog was jumping on

815
00:34:42,826 --> 00:34:44,426
Speaker 3: the other dog, even though all the dogs were jumping

816
00:34:44,446 --> 00:34:47,166
Speaker 3: on each other and then talking about like doodle hair

817
00:34:47,206 --> 00:34:49,956
Speaker 3: care tips and things like that. And it was just

818
00:34:49,996 --> 00:34:52,696
Speaker 3: such a strange, different world for me that everything about

819
00:34:52,736 --> 00:34:54,216
Speaker 3: it kind of made me laugh. But for them, this

820
00:34:54,256 --> 00:34:57,256
Speaker 3: was just like their normal social scene. So saying yes

821
00:34:57,276 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 3: to something like that can be a real delight.

822
00:34:59,576 --> 00:35:00,146
Speaker 2: Another time.

823
00:35:00,666 --> 00:35:02,346
Speaker 3: I moved to Los Angeles and I was looking for

824
00:35:02,386 --> 00:35:05,066
Speaker 3: ways to meet new people. And I didn't really know

825
00:35:05,106 --> 00:35:07,026
Speaker 3: anyone in the city. And a friend said, I know

826
00:35:07,046 --> 00:35:09,506
Speaker 3: this is really strange, but there's a group that meets

827
00:35:09,546 --> 00:35:12,166
Speaker 3: at 7 a.m. They've been meeting for almost 100 years.

828
00:35:12,546 --> 00:35:15,036
Speaker 3: Every Wednesday at 7 a.m., it's called the Los Angeles

829
00:35:15,056 --> 00:35:16,616
Speaker 3: Breakfast Club. And they sing a bunch of songs about

830
00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:19,056
Speaker 3: how much they love breakfast food. And then they have

831
00:35:19,076 --> 00:35:21,736
Speaker 3: a secret handshake that's like flipping a pancake and they

832
00:35:21,776 --> 00:35:24,146
Speaker 3: eat eggs together and I think it's maybe a cult,

833
00:35:24,186 --> 00:35:25,266
Speaker 3: but it's like a very friendly cult.

834
00:35:25,286 --> 00:35:27,306
Speaker 2: Would you like to come? And I said, absolutely.

835
00:35:27,326 --> 00:35:29,046
Speaker 3: I will be up at 630 so that I can

836
00:35:29,086 --> 00:35:31,386
Speaker 3: be at your breakfast cult at seven. And I went

837
00:35:31,486 --> 00:35:34,246
Speaker 3: and it was so delightful and so memorable. And it

838
00:35:34,306 --> 00:35:35,976
Speaker 3: changed the whole way I saw the city to know

839
00:35:36,016 --> 00:35:38,976
Speaker 3: like there's 100 people that get together and sing songs

840
00:35:39,016 --> 00:35:42,536
Speaker 3: about breakfast every Wednesday. It's been happening for almost 100 years.

841
00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:46,276
Speaker 3: That's now like permanently ingrained in my understanding of L.A.

842
00:35:46,316 --> 00:35:49,736
Speaker 3: So switching up your routine, going to things that are

843
00:35:49,776 --> 00:35:52,996
Speaker 3: a little different. trying things that might lead to people

844
00:35:53,016 --> 00:35:55,036
Speaker 3: going like, that's weird that you did that. I think

845
00:35:55,156 --> 00:35:57,016
Speaker 3: those are the social risks that pay off the biggest.

846
00:35:57,776 --> 00:35:59,456
Speaker 1: There are also the kinds of things that can connect

847
00:35:59,526 --> 00:36:01,476
Speaker 1: us most with other people. You've talked a lot about

848
00:36:01,566 --> 00:36:04,266
Speaker 1: how we can use humor as this form of shared lore,

849
00:36:04,566 --> 00:36:07,766
Speaker 1: like using inside jokes to build up relationship capital. Explain

850
00:36:07,806 --> 00:36:08,446
Speaker 1: what you mean there.

851
00:36:09,146 --> 00:36:10,586
Speaker 3: Often the people you laugh with the most are the

852
00:36:10,606 --> 00:36:13,066
Speaker 3: people you've known for the longest. And so much of

853
00:36:13,086 --> 00:36:16,496
Speaker 3: that is because you develop this language with people, right?

854
00:36:16,656 --> 00:36:18,296
Speaker 3: And everyone has some version of that. And it's actually

855
00:36:18,316 --> 00:36:21,056
Speaker 3: not very funny to tell other people about your inside jokes,

856
00:36:21,576 --> 00:36:25,096
Speaker 3: but what it does is it reinforces something with you

857
00:36:25,156 --> 00:36:27,376
Speaker 3: and the other person. It builds that connection. It makes

858
00:36:27,416 --> 00:36:29,976
Speaker 3: you laugh and it creates other opportunities for like callbacks

859
00:36:30,026 --> 00:36:32,906
Speaker 3: and ways for this thing to grow and expand. Like

860
00:36:32,946 --> 00:36:35,566
Speaker 3: my friend, Sarah has a game that she plays where

861
00:36:36,066 --> 00:36:37,866
Speaker 3: she goes to a diner and touches something on the

862
00:36:37,886 --> 00:36:39,766
Speaker 3: diner table and then makes a pun about it. Like,

863
00:36:40,186 --> 00:36:42,486
Speaker 3: She'll touch the top of a salt shaker and say

864
00:36:42,546 --> 00:36:44,466
Speaker 3: top of the morning to you. And then the other

865
00:36:44,486 --> 00:36:46,486
Speaker 3: person will touch the handle of a mug and say,

866
00:36:46,526 --> 00:36:48,646
Speaker 3: that's too much to handle. And so I know that

867
00:36:48,686 --> 00:36:50,506
Speaker 3: if I send her a photo of something on a

868
00:36:50,546 --> 00:36:53,356
Speaker 3: diner table and say a pun related to it, that

869
00:36:53,376 --> 00:36:54,716
Speaker 3: she's going to get it and that it won't just

870
00:36:54,736 --> 00:36:56,436
Speaker 3: be like a random text, but it'll be something that

871
00:36:56,896 --> 00:36:59,196
Speaker 3: makes her feel seen, makes her feel known and makes

872
00:36:59,276 --> 00:37:02,036
Speaker 3: us feel connected. When I was talking to people about

873
00:37:02,116 --> 00:37:05,496
Speaker 3: why humor evolved, I learned about a scientist at UCLA,

874
00:37:05,556 --> 00:37:08,436
Speaker 3: Greg Bryant, and his theory is called encryption theory. And

875
00:37:08,476 --> 00:37:12,336
Speaker 3: the idea is basically that when we are presented with

876
00:37:12,396 --> 00:37:14,376
Speaker 3: something that is funny, it is only funny if the

877
00:37:14,436 --> 00:37:17,416
Speaker 3: other person has the key to the lock that can

878
00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:19,776
Speaker 3: unlock it and answer that riddle. And then they laugh.

879
00:37:19,896 --> 00:37:21,236
Speaker 3: And you would know that you two were in the

880
00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:23,416
Speaker 3: same group. And if they didn't laugh or they fake laughed,

881
00:37:23,436 --> 00:37:25,186
Speaker 3: you would know, oh, they're actually not part of my

882
00:37:25,226 --> 00:37:28,326
Speaker 3: same group. And that that was very evolutionarily beneficial. And

883
00:37:28,366 --> 00:37:30,986
Speaker 3: that's why we see humor across all cultures and why

884
00:37:31,266 --> 00:37:34,586
Speaker 3: pretty much everyone is pretty good at detecting a fake laugh.

885
00:37:35,026 --> 00:37:37,396
Speaker 3: So I think that sense that like, I can use

886
00:37:37,436 --> 00:37:39,136
Speaker 3: humor as a way of telling you that you and

887
00:37:39,176 --> 00:37:41,096
Speaker 3: I are connected, that we're in the same group and

888
00:37:41,116 --> 00:37:43,396
Speaker 3: that I see you and that you're not alone. To me,

889
00:37:43,436 --> 00:37:45,256
Speaker 3: that is the big picture thing, is that it's a

890
00:37:45,256 --> 00:37:46,076
Speaker 3: way of not feeling alone.

891
00:37:47,076 --> 00:37:49,656
Speaker 1: Especially with this evolutionary argument that you're mentioning, it's almost

892
00:37:49,696 --> 00:37:51,976
Speaker 1: like you're putting out these encrypted jokes and hoping that

893
00:37:52,016 --> 00:37:53,736
Speaker 1: other people get it. But they might be like, why

894
00:37:53,756 --> 00:37:55,546
Speaker 1: did you send me a picture of a salt shaker? Like,

895
00:37:55,566 --> 00:37:57,526
Speaker 1: what is going on? It feels pretty vulnerable.

896
00:37:57,606 --> 00:37:57,896
Speaker 2: Totally.

897
00:37:58,006 --> 00:37:59,546
Speaker 1: And so you've argued that we need to find ways

898
00:37:59,606 --> 00:38:04,066
Speaker 1: to bypass our internal sensor. And creativity, interestingly, can help

899
00:38:04,146 --> 00:38:05,686
Speaker 1: us do this. Tell me about some of the studies

900
00:38:05,726 --> 00:38:06,346
Speaker 1: that have shown that.

901
00:38:07,776 --> 00:38:09,376
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. So this is really interesting is that they

902
00:38:09,416 --> 00:38:12,396
Speaker 3: put jazz improvisers in an MRI machine and they had

903
00:38:12,416 --> 00:38:14,956
Speaker 3: them improvise. And what they found is that the parts

904
00:38:14,976 --> 00:38:17,436
Speaker 3: of the brain that are like self-critical, the parts of

905
00:38:17,456 --> 00:38:21,676
Speaker 3: the brain that monitor yourself, they were really, really deactivated.

906
00:38:21,936 --> 00:38:23,956
Speaker 3: And the parts of the brain that were like working

907
00:38:23,976 --> 00:38:27,096
Speaker 3: were the creative and affiliative ones. So like making connections

908
00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:29,276
Speaker 3: and going from this note to that note. But they

909
00:38:29,316 --> 00:38:31,356
Speaker 3: weren't really paying attention to what they were doing. The

910
00:38:31,376 --> 00:38:32,936
Speaker 3: like voice in their head that says, is what you're

911
00:38:32,956 --> 00:38:33,336
Speaker 3: doing right?

912
00:38:33,376 --> 00:38:34,396
Speaker 2: Is that cool? Is that good?

913
00:38:34,456 --> 00:38:37,506
Speaker 3: Is that impressive? That was really shut down. And I

914
00:38:37,626 --> 00:38:41,176
Speaker 3: think many of us who have experienced like flow and creativity,

915
00:38:41,356 --> 00:38:43,686
Speaker 3: we found. that you have these moments where you are

916
00:38:43,706 --> 00:38:46,606
Speaker 3: at your most creative and you can't 100% remember.

917
00:38:46,186 --> 00:38:48,006
Speaker 2: What you did afterwards. And it's because you're not actually

918
00:38:48,026 --> 00:38:48,826
Speaker 2: keeping track of it.

919
00:38:49,306 --> 00:38:50,406
Speaker 3: And so I think the more that you can get

920
00:38:50,686 --> 00:38:52,986
Speaker 3: past the side of yourself that says like, this might

921
00:38:53,026 --> 00:38:55,246
Speaker 3: be bad, this might get rejected, the more that you

922
00:38:55,266 --> 00:38:58,266
Speaker 3: can do the really funny, fun examples. I can actually

923
00:38:58,306 --> 00:39:00,166
Speaker 3: do an exercise with you that I used to do

924
00:39:00,206 --> 00:39:02,456
Speaker 3: a lot with people when I taught improv, which I

925
00:39:02,476 --> 00:39:05,216
Speaker 3: think just really basically gets us past this, is if

926
00:39:05,296 --> 00:39:07,716
Speaker 3: I ask you to say like some things in a category,

927
00:39:07,796 --> 00:39:10,756
Speaker 3: like if I just say, Laurie, name as quick as

928
00:39:10,776 --> 00:39:13,156
Speaker 3: you can without thinking, name a few different kinds of cereal.

929
00:39:14,496 --> 00:39:19,916
Speaker 1: Cheerios, Captain Crunch, Count Chocula, Boo Berry, Frankie Berry. Great.

930
00:39:20,116 --> 00:39:22,526
Speaker 3: So right there, like you can think that many ahead, right?

931
00:39:22,546 --> 00:39:25,246
Speaker 3: Like you said, like some real reasonable answers. But if

932
00:39:25,286 --> 00:39:25,706
Speaker 3: I told you.

933
00:39:25,826 --> 00:39:27,646
Speaker 1: I love that you think Frankenberry is a reasonable answer.

934
00:39:27,766 --> 00:39:30,086
Speaker 2: Is Frankenberry not real? It sounds real. I totally believe that. No,

935
00:39:30,126 --> 00:39:30,826
Speaker 2: it's real. It's real.

936
00:39:30,866 --> 00:39:31,666
Speaker 1: It's just not, you know.

937
00:39:31,746 --> 00:39:33,626
Speaker 3: But like if I say like now, don't worry if

938
00:39:33,666 --> 00:39:35,966
Speaker 3: what you're saying is right or true or even like

939
00:39:36,026 --> 00:39:38,546
Speaker 3: makes sense. You did like four or five. What if

940
00:39:38,586 --> 00:39:40,586
Speaker 3: I say like, look, go to seven and we're going

941
00:39:40,606 --> 00:39:42,206
Speaker 3: to do a different category. So you can't have already

942
00:39:42,226 --> 00:39:45,496
Speaker 3: thought about it. But the point is, don't worry if like,

943
00:39:45,816 --> 00:39:48,206
Speaker 3: if I said types of cereal and at the end

944
00:39:48,226 --> 00:39:49,646
Speaker 3: you'd said shoe, that's fine.

945
00:39:49,666 --> 00:39:51,196
Speaker 2: That's a totally good answer, right?

946
00:39:51,356 --> 00:39:53,556
Speaker 3: The point is to get past what is the right

947
00:39:53,656 --> 00:39:55,996
Speaker 3: quote unquote answers and the logical ones into something that

948
00:39:56,056 --> 00:39:59,366
Speaker 3: is just like, instinctive and honest and authentic. And that

949
00:39:59,426 --> 00:40:01,586
Speaker 3: is often the most creative answer. So let's try it again.

950
00:40:02,106 --> 00:40:03,666
Speaker 3: And maybe actually so that it's fair and I'm not

951
00:40:03,686 --> 00:40:07,206
Speaker 3: just putting you on the spot. First, you give me, say, Chris,

952
00:40:07,246 --> 00:40:09,386
Speaker 3: give me seven different, and then it can be any

953
00:40:09,426 --> 00:40:10,746
Speaker 3: kind of category and I'll do it as fast as

954
00:40:10,786 --> 00:40:12,266
Speaker 3: I can. And all you have to do is after

955
00:40:12,346 --> 00:40:14,126
Speaker 3: each thing I say, you say one all the way

956
00:40:14,146 --> 00:40:14,366
Speaker 3: to seven.

957
00:40:14,446 --> 00:40:14,646
Speaker 2: Okay.

958
00:40:14,666 --> 00:40:16,876
Speaker 1: Chris, give me seven different pieces of clothing.

959
00:40:18,046 --> 00:40:18,356
Speaker 2: Shirts.

960
00:40:18,966 --> 00:40:19,046
Speaker 1: One.

961
00:40:19,086 --> 00:40:19,966
Speaker 3: Pants. Two.

962
00:40:20,066 --> 00:40:20,566
Speaker 2: Clothes.

963
00:40:20,926 --> 00:40:21,186
Speaker 1: Three.

964
00:40:21,306 --> 00:40:21,746
Speaker 2: Socks.

965
00:40:21,846 --> 00:40:22,186
Speaker 3: Four.

966
00:40:22,346 --> 00:40:22,896
Speaker 2: Earmuffs.

967
00:40:23,026 --> 00:40:23,296
Speaker 3: Five.

968
00:40:23,356 --> 00:40:23,936
Speaker 2: Earplugs.

969
00:40:23,976 --> 00:40:24,216
Speaker 3: Six.

970
00:40:24,296 --> 00:40:24,916
Speaker 2: Earwigs.

971
00:40:25,036 --> 00:40:25,476
Speaker 3: Seven.

972
00:40:25,516 --> 00:40:26,476
Speaker 1: Ding, ding, ding.

973
00:40:26,556 --> 00:40:27,776
Speaker 2: Okay, so... Earwigs.

974
00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:31,416
Speaker 3: Earwigs is, I think, an insect, not a type of clothes.

975
00:40:31,456 --> 00:40:33,106
Speaker 3: But in my mind, it was like the little hair

976
00:40:33,146 --> 00:40:35,186
Speaker 3: that you put in your ear to simulate your hair. So...

977
00:40:35,786 --> 00:40:38,606
Speaker 3: very weird not the most predictable normal one that i

978
00:40:38,606 --> 00:40:39,406
Speaker 3: would have come up with.

979
00:40:39,326 --> 00:40:42,586
Speaker 1: Yeah ear merkin came up creatively and like a strange

980
00:40:42,626 --> 00:40:43,526
Speaker 1: thing that you know the.

981
00:40:43,466 --> 00:40:45,406
Speaker 3: Point is not that like that's genius the point is

982
00:40:45,426 --> 00:40:48,346
Speaker 3: just like it's interesting and different it's not boring and

983
00:40:48,366 --> 00:40:50,506
Speaker 3: i think we can get past the boring answers when

984
00:40:50,526 --> 00:40:52,586
Speaker 3: we just forget about like whether i'm going to look

985
00:40:52,646 --> 00:40:55,066
Speaker 3: good whether my answer is going to make sense to

986
00:40:55,086 --> 00:40:57,626
Speaker 3: the podcast listeners and to you and just start doing

987
00:40:57,666 --> 00:40:59,426
Speaker 3: it so let me give it to you seven different

988
00:40:59,446 --> 00:41:04,306
Speaker 3: things that you might find inside your car uh Charger. One.

989
00:41:04,446 --> 00:41:06,646
Speaker 1: The little thingy that lights up cigarettes.

990
00:41:06,966 --> 00:41:07,286
Speaker 3: Two.

991
00:41:07,566 --> 00:41:08,826
Speaker 1: Old McDonald's wrappers.

992
00:41:08,906 --> 00:41:09,226
Speaker 3: Three.

993
00:41:09,566 --> 00:41:10,326
Speaker 1: A parking pass.

994
00:41:10,646 --> 00:41:11,526
Speaker 2: Four. Keys.

995
00:41:11,686 --> 00:41:12,046
Speaker 3: Five.

996
00:41:12,106 --> 00:41:12,766
Speaker 1: My husband.

997
00:41:12,906 --> 00:41:13,186
Speaker 2: Six.

998
00:41:13,526 --> 00:41:15,316
Speaker 1: Random people that I'm taking on errands.

999
00:41:15,576 --> 00:41:18,416
Speaker 2: Seven. Okay, great. I love that it was all that stuff.

1000
00:41:18,656 --> 00:41:20,296
Speaker 2: And then also it turns out your car is totally

1001
00:41:20,336 --> 00:41:20,916
Speaker 2: full of humans.

1002
00:41:21,156 --> 00:41:22,796
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my husband's in the car too. Yeah.

1003
00:41:23,036 --> 00:41:25,236
Speaker 2: Your husband and a bunch of people you're taking on errands.

1004
00:41:25,556 --> 00:41:28,506
Speaker 2: That's great. And I think like, again, that image that

1005
00:41:28,526 --> 00:41:29,646
Speaker 2: you just painted of.

1006
00:41:29,466 --> 00:41:33,166
Speaker 3: Like, there's the car charger and there's the cigarette lighter thing.

1007
00:41:33,246 --> 00:41:35,626
Speaker 2: There's the old McDonald's reference, but there's also some strangers

1008
00:41:35,746 --> 00:41:38,246
Speaker 2: and your husband. That's such a vivid image that's like

1009
00:41:38,646 --> 00:41:39,406
Speaker 2: real and creative.

1010
00:41:39,426 --> 00:41:41,566
Speaker 3: And I think as an artist, right, like there's a

1011
00:41:41,606 --> 00:41:44,026
Speaker 3: lot that we can do with that kind of specifics

1012
00:41:44,086 --> 00:41:46,366
Speaker 3: that's very ripe for art, but it's also ripe for comedy.

1013
00:41:46,836 --> 00:41:48,816
Speaker 1: And it seems to really build our social connection, too.

1014
00:41:48,996 --> 00:41:50,736
Speaker 1: Like now we're kind of joking about it. We have

1015
00:41:50,756 --> 00:41:53,696
Speaker 1: the earwig joke and the McDonald's wrapper joke. And we

1016
00:41:53,716 --> 00:41:55,896
Speaker 1: will always have ear merkin, Chris, whenever we.

1017
00:41:55,916 --> 00:41:57,836
Speaker 2: I'm going to get that on a T-shirt. That's for sure.

1018
00:41:58,836 --> 00:42:00,876
Speaker 3: I also think like this connects to like the most

1019
00:42:01,276 --> 00:42:03,806
Speaker 3: common way that people avoid taking a social risk, which

1020
00:42:03,846 --> 00:42:06,546
Speaker 3: is to just have the same conversation over and over. Right.

1021
00:42:07,046 --> 00:42:08,866
Speaker 2: Hey, how are you doing? Where are you from? What

1022
00:42:08,886 --> 00:42:10,346
Speaker 2: do you do? OK, nice to meet you.

1023
00:42:10,726 --> 00:42:12,366
Speaker 1: And this fits with another tip that you've talked about,

1024
00:42:12,386 --> 00:42:15,866
Speaker 1: the importance of adding in conversational doorknobs into your life.

1025
00:42:16,396 --> 00:42:17,956
Speaker 1: What do you mean by conversational doorknobs?

1026
00:42:18,216 --> 00:42:21,286
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this comes from Adam Mastroianni, an incredible writer

1027
00:42:21,446 --> 00:42:24,796
Speaker 3: and academic who studies how conversations end and whether people

1028
00:42:24,876 --> 00:42:26,936
Speaker 3: want them to end or not. And he read about

1029
00:42:26,976 --> 00:42:29,566
Speaker 3: how one of the things that we... can do in

1030
00:42:29,586 --> 00:42:31,956
Speaker 3: a conversation is create an affordance. So like a physical

1031
00:42:31,996 --> 00:42:34,236
Speaker 3: affordance would be something like a ramp that can help

1032
00:42:34,276 --> 00:42:36,496
Speaker 3: someone get into a building if they can't walk up

1033
00:42:36,516 --> 00:42:39,036
Speaker 3: the stairs. And a conversational affordance is a way that

1034
00:42:39,056 --> 00:42:42,076
Speaker 3: they can latch into the conversation and have something to

1035
00:42:42,116 --> 00:42:43,996
Speaker 3: talk about, even if they don't necessarily do it. And

1036
00:42:44,036 --> 00:42:46,276
Speaker 3: he talks about how if you say something that is

1037
00:42:46,376 --> 00:42:49,206
Speaker 3: interesting and unusual, it presents an opportunity for someone to

1038
00:42:49,356 --> 00:42:52,826
Speaker 3: turn that doorknob and open the conversation into a new room, right?

1039
00:42:52,846 --> 00:42:55,486
Speaker 2: So if I say the other day, I had a

1040
00:42:55,546 --> 00:42:56,706
Speaker 2: soup that changed my life.

1041
00:42:57,246 --> 00:42:59,626
Speaker 3: That is so much more likely for the other person

1042
00:42:59,666 --> 00:43:01,766
Speaker 3: to be able to say something to you or to

1043
00:43:01,906 --> 00:43:04,926
Speaker 3: ask you questions than if you say, weather's been pretty

1044
00:43:04,966 --> 00:43:07,646
Speaker 3: wild lately, right? Like the most common thing that someone's

1045
00:43:07,666 --> 00:43:09,306
Speaker 3: going to say to that is, yeah, it has. And

1046
00:43:09,326 --> 00:43:12,506
Speaker 3: then you're fizzling out after maybe two more sentences. Whereas

1047
00:43:12,546 --> 00:43:14,186
Speaker 3: if you say the soup thing, they could go, where

1048
00:43:14,276 --> 00:43:17,716
Speaker 3: was it? Or, you know, I've always hated soup. And

1049
00:43:17,736 --> 00:43:20,136
Speaker 3: then either way, you have stuff to talk about. So

1050
00:43:20,476 --> 00:43:23,976
Speaker 3: creating these like slight risks of talking about something that

1051
00:43:24,016 --> 00:43:27,146
Speaker 3: is not exactly the thing can create a conversational doorknob

1052
00:43:27,166 --> 00:43:28,586
Speaker 3: that can lead you into an unexpected room.

1053
00:43:29,006 --> 00:43:29,906
Speaker 2: And now you're more connected.

1054
00:43:30,546 --> 00:43:32,826
Speaker 1: It seems pretty similar to a comedy technique that you

1055
00:43:32,846 --> 00:43:35,086
Speaker 1: also talk about this idea of doing a yes and

1056
00:43:35,206 --> 00:43:38,046
Speaker 1: collaboration building. It seems like the conversational doorknob is a

1057
00:43:38,086 --> 00:43:40,046
Speaker 1: kind of You're throwing it out there and somebody is

1058
00:43:40,066 --> 00:43:41,426
Speaker 1: going to pick it up and kind of go with

1059
00:43:41,466 --> 00:43:41,946
Speaker 1: it from there.

1060
00:43:42,026 --> 00:43:42,406
Speaker 2: Is that right?

1061
00:43:42,446 --> 00:43:43,266
Speaker 1: Totally. I mean, yes.

1062
00:43:43,386 --> 00:43:46,546
Speaker 3: And is like the basis of all improvised comedy. And

1063
00:43:46,586 --> 00:43:48,406
Speaker 3: it's that if I say to you, like, Laurie, we're

1064
00:43:48,426 --> 00:43:52,046
Speaker 3: on a spaceship, you don't go, no, we're not. Because then, OK, well,

1065
00:43:52,086 --> 00:43:54,766
Speaker 3: the scene's pretty much over. And obviously, we're not most

1066
00:43:54,786 --> 00:43:57,606
Speaker 3: of the time performing improvised comedy for an audience, but

1067
00:43:57,646 --> 00:44:01,336
Speaker 3: we are almost always improvising our conversations. And the idea

1068
00:44:01,356 --> 00:44:03,216
Speaker 3: that you would want to agree with the person and

1069
00:44:03,236 --> 00:44:04,956
Speaker 3: then build on it and then that they would agree

1070
00:44:04,996 --> 00:44:07,306
Speaker 3: with you and build on what you said. That is

1071
00:44:07,386 --> 00:44:10,256
Speaker 3: how you lead to a conversation that, as Adam Mastroianni

1072
00:44:10,316 --> 00:44:12,256
Speaker 3: puts it, like feels like you're floating, like you're flying,

1073
00:44:12,276 --> 00:44:14,436
Speaker 3: like it's going somewhere and not crashing to the earth.

1074
00:44:14,816 --> 00:44:16,476
Speaker 3: And also the spirit of that is to make the

1075
00:44:16,516 --> 00:44:18,536
Speaker 3: other person look good, to not have it be about

1076
00:44:18,676 --> 00:44:22,846
Speaker 3: you adding your great genius anecdote, but instead to take

1077
00:44:22,866 --> 00:44:24,306
Speaker 3: what they said, to view it as a gift and

1078
00:44:24,346 --> 00:44:26,426
Speaker 3: then to give them a gift back, allow them to

1079
00:44:26,546 --> 00:44:26,806
Speaker 3: use that.

1080
00:44:28,036 --> 00:44:30,016
Speaker 1: Well, Chris, thank you so much for giving my listeners

1081
00:44:30,056 --> 00:44:32,786
Speaker 1: the gift of helping them become more humorous. Just one

1082
00:44:32,826 --> 00:44:35,246
Speaker 1: last question. Has remembering that humor is this muscle that

1083
00:44:35,286 --> 00:44:39,626
Speaker 1: you can build up over time helped you be happier? Oh, yeah.

1084
00:44:39,706 --> 00:44:41,146
Speaker 3: I mean, I think this happens to a lot of

1085
00:44:41,186 --> 00:44:44,196
Speaker 3: people who write a nonfiction book where I'm like, it

1086
00:44:44,236 --> 00:44:46,896
Speaker 3: turns out that I desperately needed this book. I had

1087
00:44:46,956 --> 00:44:49,756
Speaker 3: a second kid in the course of writing this book.

1088
00:44:49,816 --> 00:44:52,076
Speaker 3: And As I've been promoting it, we're like in the

1089
00:44:52,136 --> 00:44:54,056
Speaker 3: newborn phase and I haven't been getting that much sleep.

1090
00:44:54,116 --> 00:44:55,576
Speaker 2: And it's so easy each day.

1091
00:44:55,456 --> 00:44:58,076
Speaker 3: To just feel like I'm totally overwhelmed and that there's

1092
00:44:58,096 --> 00:45:00,436
Speaker 3: so many things that haven't done. And when I'm able

1093
00:45:00,476 --> 00:45:03,316
Speaker 3: to get out of my self-seriousness and to laugh about

1094
00:45:03,356 --> 00:45:04,956
Speaker 3: the things that are happening and to laugh about the

1095
00:45:04,996 --> 00:45:07,516
Speaker 3: fact that I'm, you know, trying to prep for a big,

1096
00:45:07,576 --> 00:45:09,976
Speaker 3: important interview and my child has just thrown up all

1097
00:45:10,036 --> 00:45:13,506
Speaker 3: over my face like that, when I can laugh about it,

1098
00:45:13,546 --> 00:45:14,316
Speaker 3: I have a much better day.

1099
00:45:15,426 --> 00:45:17,126
Speaker 1: If you'd like more of Chris's advice on how to

1100
00:45:17,146 --> 00:45:19,606
Speaker 1: bring more humor into your life, check out his new book,

1101
00:45:19,906 --> 00:45:23,466
Speaker 1: Humor Me, how laughing more can make you present, creative, connected,

1102
00:45:23,586 --> 00:45:26,046
Speaker 1: and happy. And you can hear more from Chris on

1103
00:45:26,066 --> 00:45:29,896
Speaker 1: his award-winning podcast, How to Be a Better Human. Next week,

1104
00:45:29,916 --> 00:45:33,136
Speaker 1: we'll wrap up our back-to-school book series with author Eric Wiener.

1105
00:45:33,596 --> 00:45:36,156
Speaker 1: He'll share his thoughts on what a 19th century philosopher

1106
00:45:36,236 --> 00:45:38,516
Speaker 1: who lived alone in the woods can teach us about

1107
00:45:38,596 --> 00:45:40,616
Speaker 1: shifting our perspective in the modern age.

1108
00:45:40,936 --> 00:45:41,566
Speaker 2: It was something.

1109
00:45:42,176 --> 00:45:45,606
Speaker 4: odd about him. He had these piercing eyes that people

1110
00:45:45,666 --> 00:45:48,266
Speaker 4: find kind of scary, to be honest. He would just

1111
00:45:48,506 --> 00:45:50,786
Speaker 4: look at things for a long time with those eyes.

1112
00:45:51,346 --> 00:45:56,256
Speaker 4: And he had this almost superhuman sense of smell and hearing.

1113
00:45:56,696 --> 00:45:59,616
Speaker 1: That's all next week on the Happiness Lab with me, Dr.

1114
00:45:59,656 --> 00:46:00,396
Speaker 1: Laurie Santos.