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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I will never forget the

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Speaker 1: day that I first learned that this beautiful d C

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Speaker 1: intern had gone missing, and I saw the first picture

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Speaker 1: of her. She had beautiful, long, curly black hair, these

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Speaker 1: piercing eyes, tall, thin, perfect skin. I'm like, where is Chandra?

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Speaker 1: Nothing makes sense to me. Joining me right now in

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Speaker 1: a fight for justice is Schandre Levy's mother, Susan Levy.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. We all know that at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: it became public knowledge, much to the pain of Chandra's parents,

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Speaker 1: who were happy when their daughter got this prestigious d

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Speaker 1: C internship, you know, which is supposed to open all

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Speaker 1: kind of doors for you. When it was first reported

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Speaker 1: that she had somehow become part of a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a very much married u as congressman, and then she

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Speaker 1: goes missing. As the facts began to unfold, much speculation occurred.

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Speaker 1: Today we are at the impasse. The prosecutors in d

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Speaker 1: C have outright refused ms Levy's request to retest the

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Speaker 1: evidence of Chandra Levy's murder case. They have outright refused

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Speaker 1: Miss Levy to retest the evidence with state of the

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Speaker 1: art d NA such as UH touch d N a

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Speaker 1: im fact um familial DNA analysis anything. Why what happened

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Speaker 1: to the evidence has to compromised? Has it been lost?

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Speaker 1: Or are they just tired of the case? No more

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Speaker 1: headlines left to ring out of Schandra Levy's investigation? Why

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Speaker 1: it was ms Levy turned down? Why was I turned down?

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Speaker 1: And my request for her evidence to be retested? Joining

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Speaker 1: me right now is Sandra's mother, who has never given

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Speaker 1: up the fight for justice for her daughter, Schandra, miss Leavy,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Thank you tell me

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Speaker 1: why it's so important for you to have the evidence

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Speaker 1: in Sandra's case. I'm referring to her jogging tides, the

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Speaker 1: other items that were found near her remains, and the

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Speaker 1: part where she was jogging. Why is it so important

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Speaker 1: to you that this evidence be tested? First of all,

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Speaker 1: there's me too movement and the me too movement. Most

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Speaker 1: people can talk about their situation, but my daughter, who

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Speaker 1: is deceased, is part of that me too movement and

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Speaker 1: I am a voice because she cannot speak. And there

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Speaker 1: are questions that have never been answered. There's been no

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Speaker 1: UH understanding of what really happened. UH. There is new

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Speaker 1: ways of doing forensic testing, and there's always that possibility,

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Speaker 1: that slight possibility, that there might be something that can

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Speaker 1: be found within the new technology that is there. Even

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Speaker 1: though I've been told by prosecutors that everything has been

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Speaker 1: touched and contaminated. Are they experts in the area of

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Speaker 1: technology and uh biology to know? My question is there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of loose ins. I'll never get my

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Speaker 1: daughter back, but are there things that don't match up?

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Speaker 1: And that's my question that if someone may have gotten

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Speaker 1: my daughter in the park, they took time to make

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Speaker 1: notts in her clothing kind of makes me wonder why

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Speaker 1: they had the time to do that and why they

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Speaker 1: were interested in nodding such as an S and M

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Speaker 1: type attack or a bondage attack on her. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: to me earlier about zip ties or zip ties found

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Speaker 1: anywhere near her remains. I don't know, because when it

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Speaker 1: came to the forensic part, I walked out and went

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Speaker 1: to a horse show. That was because you did not

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Speaker 1: want to hear it. I didn't want to hear it,

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Speaker 1: but certainly told Susan when you asked to have her evidence,

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Speaker 1: for instance, her leggings or running leggings retested I mean

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Speaker 1: about it, Susan. Whoever tied those knots had to touch

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Speaker 1: the leggings at on the inside of the knots, just

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Speaker 1: like when you tie your shoe, you're leaving behind d

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Speaker 1: N A with new touch technology, I don't understand why

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Speaker 1: there wouldn't be DNA unless it's being compromised in the

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Speaker 1: evidence room. But they said that everything was left out

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Speaker 1: for a year, out in the open, but the knots

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Speaker 1: were still tied, So what's within those knots would still

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Speaker 1: be there. I don't know if they ever untied the

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Speaker 1: knots or maybe they will untie that. When you asked

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Speaker 1: for it to be retested, what were you told, Susan.

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Speaker 1: I was told that most of the evidence has been

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Speaker 1: compromised because of the being in the element for a year.

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Speaker 1: And also it was compromised because to me, other people

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Speaker 1: have touched it and doing they're testing. Well, you know

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Speaker 1: what does Cheryl McCollum, the director of the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute. We certainly won't know that unless we try, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: we will not know unless we try. And I see

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Speaker 1: if we been asking for years. Number one, they need

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Speaker 1: a not expert to examine those not and then they

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Speaker 1: need to use the in fact it tests those tents.

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Speaker 1: If it turns up nothing, so much. At least we tried, Nyhy.

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Speaker 1: They love to say we're gonna leave no stone unturned. Well, buddy,

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Speaker 1: you've left one unturned on this one. You know, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: the types of technology that's now available, from familial DNA

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Speaker 1: to the use of an impact. What could be done,

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Speaker 1: What tests could be run on Saundra's clothes. And I've

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Speaker 1: got to tell you, I mean, I've got an email

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Speaker 1: right here in front of me that was sent to

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Speaker 1: me that they that prosecutors had reviewed all the evidence.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I think that it's all been done. Well

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Speaker 1: that was at the time of the trial. Says then

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Speaker 1: so much DNA technology. I mean, look at Golden State

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Speaker 1: Killer for Pete's sake, look at the impact. Look at

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Speaker 1: all that has developed since that time, Cheryl. What could

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Speaker 1: be done now that may make a difference in this case?

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Speaker 1: In the answer, they could absolutely use the IMBAT, which

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Speaker 1: is the latest greatest capability that we have to extract

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Speaker 1: DNA again from the inside of the night. They could

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Speaker 1: also do phenotyping, which would give you a picture literally

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Speaker 1: of the suspect. You know, an interesting thing. The way

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Speaker 1: this whole thing unrivaled was after a series of investigative

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Speaker 1: reports by the Washington Post, police finally get a warrant

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Speaker 1: to arrest a guy named ing Marghon DK. He was

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Speaker 1: an illegal immigrant from El Salvador. We all know about

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Speaker 1: the speculation before that, Gary Condent, the congressman, reportedly had

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Speaker 1: had a romantic relationship with Seandre Levie. To this day,

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Speaker 1: he still denies that or will not answer. However, all

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Speaker 1: eyes returned on him until the Washington Post articles that

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Speaker 1: led to the search warrant that led to the arrest

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Speaker 1: of e. Margon DC gun d K was tried and

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Speaker 1: found guilty. Why because he told multiple people behind bars

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Speaker 1: and pen pals phone pals that he killed Shandra Levy.

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Speaker 1: He described her. He has a tattoo on himself that

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Speaker 1: looks like schendre Levy. He had clippings he had saved

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Speaker 1: in his jail cell that are about schendre Levy. And

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Speaker 1: he had attacked multiple other women in the same part

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Speaker 1: in the same way as they were jogging the same

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Speaker 1: m O motorcyperendi method of operation as we think happened

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Speaker 1: to Shandra. That's not the end of the story, He's

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Speaker 1: tried to convict it, and then one witness, one witness says, oh,

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Speaker 1: I was lying. I made that story up about him confessing.

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Speaker 1: So they dropped the whole case. They dismissed charges and

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Speaker 1: send Gondique back to El Salvador. Cheryl, I've never heard

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Speaker 1: anything like that in my life. Why not rework the case?

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Speaker 1: How do I know the witness wasn't lying when he

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Speaker 1: said it was lying? I would just tell the jury that, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: It is the most maddening situation, because again, you were

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Speaker 1: my prosecutor. So this to me is the most unfathomable

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Speaker 1: result I've ever seen in my life. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you would never paying everything on a case with one witness. Ever,

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Speaker 1: you work it from the ground up. Everything you told

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Speaker 1: us a long time ago in a meeting, Nancy, let's

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Speaker 1: get our hands dirty with facts and evidence. How can

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Speaker 1: you just let one small person dissolve this entire case

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Speaker 1: that took seven years to build. It makes no sense.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this with our friend Deborah Roberts

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Speaker 1: at NBC's Dateline documentary. I called up and called up,

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Speaker 1: and then suld answer Bob Levy, an oncologist and wife

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Speaker 1: Susan are expecting their twenty four year old daughter back

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Speaker 1: home in Modesto, California. She was shy. She really liked

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Speaker 1: being at home. Yet her daughter was ambitious, dreaming of

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Speaker 1: a career in law enforcements. Very program Yeah, she'd even

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Speaker 1: volunteered in her local police department before heading to the

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Speaker 1: nation's capital. She got an internship Department of Prisons there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think she was interested in going to the FBI.

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Speaker 1: The FBI would be in Sandra's future, but not in

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Speaker 1: the way she imagine. This is Crime Stories with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace and with me today. Um, a woman I feel

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Speaker 1: that I've known for a very long time. When I

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Speaker 1: would see her cry on a TV screen, it would

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Speaker 1: break my heart. Sandra Levy's mother, Susan Levy, who is

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Speaker 1: joining us. She has traveled from California and it's with

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Speaker 1: me here in the studio now. Also with me my colleague,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute MS Levy.

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Speaker 1: When the DC prosecutors told you they had absolutely no

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Speaker 1: intention of using the latest DNA technology on the evidence

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Speaker 1: in Sandra's case, how did that affect you? When they

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Speaker 1: basically slammed the door in your face. Well, it made

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Speaker 1: me feel unhappy. Uh though I'm unhappy any help, regardless

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Speaker 1: of which way, because I don't have my daughter. But

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Speaker 1: I just feel when I've caught the police department in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. And asked for them to take a new

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Speaker 1: interest in the case, and they said that they are

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Speaker 1: still working on it. And though I don't believe it,

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Speaker 1: I never heard from them working on and how I

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Speaker 1: mean they had they said, did it? And then they

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Speaker 1: cut him loose and let him get deported to All Salvador.

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Speaker 1: What am I working on? One Dicky supposed he was

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Speaker 1: up for murder and uh caseince el Salvador. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that's true. But I just never seen anything

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Speaker 1: unraveled so fast after this particular lady that talk to

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Speaker 1: the Star wetness, and I don't understand how someone who

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Speaker 1: is prime witness, who was under victim's protection, I think,

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Speaker 1: and he was not guarded in his room and he

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Speaker 1: could just go everywhere, and this lady gets involved and

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Speaker 1: and somehow, unbeknownst to him, has five hours of tapes

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Speaker 1: that is uh talked about that he made a lie

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Speaker 1: and uh just lay the case against Gundak was not

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Speaker 1: based on just the one witness who he Gundak confessed to.

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Speaker 1: There if you look in the file, as you well know,

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Speaker 1: there are multiple people behind bars, his cell mates that

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Speaker 1: he bragged too that he kills Sendra. There is a

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Speaker 1: pinpal that he would talk to regularly, a woman on

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Speaker 1: the phone that he talked to about the murder of

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Speaker 1: Schendre Leady. There are many people, not just this one

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Speaker 1: star witness. Why does he have a tattoo with shenser

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Speaker 1: Levies face on his body? Why does he have all

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Speaker 1: the clippings from Shanser Levy in his jail cell and

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, even more damning, is not one, not too,

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Speaker 1: but three that we know of similar transaction, females that

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Speaker 1: he attacked in the same park, just yards away from

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Speaker 1: where Saunder's remains were found. Of course he's involved. Was

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Speaker 1: it him alone? I don't know. Did someone pay him

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Speaker 1: or suggest that he do this? I don't know that,

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Speaker 1: but I know he was convicted. Why would the state

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Speaker 1: just drop the case and send the guy away? Tell

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Speaker 1: Salvador and Cheryl McCollum keep the star witness under protective

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Speaker 1: custody the according to reports, why would they get ugly

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Speaker 1: with miss Levies when when I called, when you called,

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Speaker 1: what other people call and say, hey, y'all, why don't

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Speaker 1: you review everything? And reaches the evidence now was the latest,

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Speaker 1: greatest stuff, instead of saying, wait a minute, maybe that's

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Speaker 1: a good idea, let's you know, get back in the

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Speaker 1: room and worked this thing from the ground up again. No, no,

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Speaker 1: they called mc leavy angry at her that she's got

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Speaker 1: people reaching out on her behalf. They ignore the fact

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Speaker 1: there's not one, but two similar transactions. And Nathy, you

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Speaker 1: and I both know if you've got very similar crimes

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Speaker 1: and a five mile radius, that looks good all day.

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Speaker 1: If you've got it within a mile, you can pretty

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Speaker 1: much guarantee it's the same person. In this situation, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about yards, yards, just yards. You know, the the

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Speaker 1: investigation was bungled at the get go. There was evidence

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Speaker 1: that in Shaundre's apartment building that they had surveillance videos.

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Speaker 1: She goes missing, nobody gets the tape. They tape over

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Speaker 1: it every seventy two hours or something like that, and

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Speaker 1: they lose the tape just just they get into her

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Speaker 1: computer and destroy all the evidence. They manage at some

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Speaker 1: point to you know, re access much of the computer evidence,

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Speaker 1: but just one thing after the next, after the next.

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Speaker 1: They ignored some nine one one call. There was a

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Speaker 1: scream in the apartment complex, and that's this doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: My daughter would scream if some someone was to take

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Speaker 1: her out of there. She doesn't run by the way

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Speaker 1: in parks. She is not a park runner. That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: On her computer there was evidence she had looked up

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Speaker 1: there was a mansion in Rock Creek Park, as if

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Speaker 1: that's where she were going it That part sounds like

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Speaker 1: an elaborate setup, uh, to plant that and have her

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Speaker 1: go there to what meets someone? Why would she go there?

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Speaker 1: She didn't typically jog their misleavy, that's true. Prosecutors are

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Speaker 1: declining to comment on recordings that seemed to indicate Armando

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Speaker 1: Morales was lying. He was recorded by a neighbor stating

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Speaker 1: he lied about gone dek his one time salemate in

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Speaker 1: a Kentucky prison. But what about all the other evidence,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, not just Morales. There's hours and hours of

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Speaker 1: tape that they won't released, that she won't be able

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Speaker 1: to hear. There are two similar transactions, so those are

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Speaker 1: just the two that he was serving time for Cheryl.

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Speaker 1: There are more than just those two. Those two women

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Speaker 1: are the two that he was actually doing jail time

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Speaker 1: for attacking them in Rock Creek Park, just yards from

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Speaker 1: where Chaundra's remains were found. There are others that he

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Speaker 1: wasn't prosecuted for absolutely, but let's break that down. The

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Speaker 1: other two women were of the same general height as Chardre,

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Speaker 1: same stature, build, dark curly hair, running in Rock Creek

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Speaker 1: Park with a walkman at the end of their route,

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Speaker 1: so they're fatigued and they're tired. That is not just

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Speaker 1: an m O back damn near a signature, ms Levy.

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Speaker 1: I heard someone ask you just recently, why don't you

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Speaker 1: quote move on? Well, when I heard the question, and it,

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Speaker 1: just as my son said, it was cringe e. It

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Speaker 1: literally made me physically cringe when I heard someone ask you,

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Speaker 1: miss lady, why don't you just move on from this?

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Speaker 1: I have to turn every stone. It is my belief

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Speaker 1: that even there's a very possibility that Sandra may have

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Speaker 1: never been killed in that park, or may have been

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Speaker 1: taken away and replaced there. I don't know why I

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Speaker 1: feel that it is such like like deep inside me,

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Speaker 1: but you don't move on when you lose a child, Yes,

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Speaker 1: you go. I live in your life the best you

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Speaker 1: know how. But someone out there knows what really did happen,

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Speaker 1: the truth, and I do not want to have my

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Speaker 1: daughter's death forgotten, and that if her death meant to

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Speaker 1: open up an avenue for other people to get to

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Speaker 1: their truth quicker, that would be great. I can't say

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Speaker 1: sure that this case is closed and it's code again.

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Speaker 1: The me too movement involves those people who have us

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Speaker 1: have lost their lives, and in my case, my daughter

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Speaker 1: had been manipulated and lost her life, and I uh,

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Speaker 1: I am her voice with me. Chandra's mother, Susan Levy.

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Speaker 1: He has traveled from California also with me, the director

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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCullum. Cheryl, I

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Speaker 1: tried with the prosecutors to get them to retest the evidence.

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Speaker 1: I had a stone wall and I kept trying it

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Speaker 1: with all diplomacy I could muster misleavy try. That's the

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Speaker 1: outrage that a victim's mother was treated that way, and

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Speaker 1: it hurts me. Cheryl, I was a felony prosecutor, I

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Speaker 1: am a crime victim. I feel like I'm still part

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Speaker 1: of the justice system as we all are and it

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Speaker 1: hurts me about what is going on right now. When

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Speaker 1: you tried, Cheryl McCollum to get the evidence retested, essentially

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Speaker 1: I got the message, well, I'm about to retire. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not touching this case. It's over as far as

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned. Forget about it. Basically is that the nutshell

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Speaker 1: of what you got pretty much what I got. The

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Speaker 1: first thing she wanted to do was correct um how

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Speaker 1: I addressed her each state and shitty they you know,

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Speaker 1: they have different things they call their prosecutors, so it

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Speaker 1: could be an attorney general, you know, whatever. So she

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Speaker 1: wanted to be sure that I had the right title,

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Speaker 1: and so I knew at that point it was going

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Speaker 1: to go south. But here's the thing that do you

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Speaker 1: and I both started our careers really as victim aggate.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, when you look at what ms

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Speaker 1: Levy has been through, her daughter goes missing, they do

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Speaker 1: not find her for a year, even though they they

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Speaker 1: supposedly searched that area. After that, there was a period

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Speaker 1: of seven years Nancy where she didn't hear a word

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Speaker 1: from the police or prosecutors or anybody. Seven years of

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Speaker 1: not knowing what the heck was going on with this case,

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Speaker 1: and now she's asking for something very small. It's it's

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Speaker 1: nothing to get this tested. We even offered the freaking

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Speaker 1: pay for Well, I didn't know that part. Cheryl. You

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Speaker 1: offered to use your own facilities and equipment that you

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Speaker 1: can access to retest the evidence of the Seans Levy case.

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Speaker 1: And even though it would not cost their office one penny,

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Speaker 1: they declined they won't even respond. And they again they

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Speaker 1: got very ugly with her, not knowing why she had

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Speaker 1: nance the Gray's call up there. Well, she had nance

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Speaker 1: the Gray's call up there because Cheryl the callin couldn't

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Speaker 1: get it done. Well, I'm sorry to say you and

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Speaker 1: I are frying in the same pan right now. We're

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Speaker 1: stilling in the same pot. I couldn't get it done either.

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Speaker 1: But what really burns me up is talking to miss

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Speaker 1: Levy like that, Miss Levy in you called for Saundrew's

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Speaker 1: evidence to be retested. What was their demeanor? They just

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Speaker 1: uh didn't give me any answered. I guess is it

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Speaker 1: any way that they're still working on this and the police,

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Speaker 1: you know, they kind of beat around the bush and

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Speaker 1: and they really said there's nothing more that can be done. Really,

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Speaker 1: they haven't heard about the m fact and touch technology,

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Speaker 1: and that's what I told them. And then they they

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Speaker 1: stood out, you know, it's all been washed out. That's

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Speaker 1: what we did, is washed the stuff out or something.

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Speaker 1: I guess they figure it's a fact wet vacuum and

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Speaker 1: it washed up all the evidence out. And it's always

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Speaker 1: that chat that maybe we can find out a little

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Speaker 1: bit more that than than what we know already. What

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, Ms Leady is that star witness. And I'm

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Speaker 1: saying that with air quotees liar or no liar, I

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Speaker 1: would argue to the jury he was lying when he

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Speaker 1: said he was lying. Okay, if I be leaved in

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Speaker 1: my case, but forget about him. If there is d

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Speaker 1: n A there, you don't need him. And what skin

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Speaker 1: off their back is it to have it retested? What

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Speaker 1: have they lost it? It's somewhere lost in the evidence

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Speaker 1: dream or worse, how would it hurt them to take

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Speaker 1: the evidence with their own little, hot little hands to

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Speaker 1: the crime lab and have it In fact, maybe they

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Speaker 1: don't know where they put the evidence at. I'm not

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's to see. I hate to say

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Speaker 1: that I went to pick up my daughter's clothing belongings

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Speaker 1: that she had, and I went to an awful part

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Speaker 1: of town and they have thousands of other murdered boxes

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Speaker 1: of people's remaining clothing. And knowing the way the government works,

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Speaker 1: maybe they don't know what they're always doing. Well, I've

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Speaker 1: got to tell you, you know, that strikes me to

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Speaker 1: the core because my whole world has been built on

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Speaker 1: being part of the system. But I know that the

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Speaker 1: system fails, and that's very hurtful but also very true.

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Speaker 1: And Klingon match and one time I went on my own, uh,

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Speaker 1: investigating what Klingon Mansion is about, and I found all

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Speaker 1: kinds of advertisements. You know, they do weddings, they do

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Speaker 1: children's parties. But at that time that I was investigating

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Speaker 1: on my own, they said, we can do everything that

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Speaker 1: your heart desires, imagine. And then it makes me wonder

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Speaker 1: if there's more to Kalinga than we all know regarding

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Speaker 1: while she was there, right she was near that hospital

363
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Speaker 1: is kind of like a um, well, I'll say a

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Speaker 1: mansion in the middle or near Rock Creek Park where

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Speaker 1: Shaundra's remains were found. I want to go back to

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Speaker 1: something very important, Ms Levy. Too many people Saundra's name

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Speaker 1: is now a headline. They don't remember the pain that

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Speaker 1: they suffered. I don't think it's a headline in the

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Speaker 1: same way that it was before. But because it's a

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Speaker 1: new generation. Ten twenty years, I've gone to schools and

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Speaker 1: speak for the Day of Respect, and it's amazing because

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Speaker 1: this new generation is longer than you go. The more

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Speaker 1: the name isn't a headline because people wo forget, you

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Speaker 1: know what, Let's remind them the day that Chandra disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about what was happening that day in your

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Speaker 1: life when you discovered your daughter was missing. When my

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00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: husband first kind of realized before I did, because he

378
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: had made many many calls and then get any calls back.

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Speaker 1: And she was supposed to come home for her college graduation,

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Speaker 1: and we didn't know what her plans were. And it's

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Speaker 1: highly unlike her not to tell us that when she

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Speaker 1: was coming back, so that my husband kind of knew

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Speaker 1: before I did or suspected. And and then later on

384
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: I wound up calling our congressman, and then what happened

385
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: were actually my husband called the FBI, FBI and and

386
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Speaker 1: and the congressman. And then a second time I called

387
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: and got Musaic and finally asked if he knew where

388
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Speaker 1: Shundra was. And later on we got phone, you know phones,

389
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Speaker 1: because she was she was an intern, and she got phone.

390
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: We got our phone records, which was very hard to

391
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Speaker 1: get from Verizon or whatever A T and T. I

392
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Speaker 1: don't know what we had. I think it's Verizon and

393
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: we had to go through a lot of ropes to

394
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Speaker 1: get that. And there were many, many, many many calls

395
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: going to his office day and night. I don't understand

396
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: why you were having to do this and not the police.

397
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if the police did, but we did, okay,

398
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Speaker 1: And then what did the se what did the phone

399
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: reckers reveal that she was calling constantly to a specific

400
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: number and that number was here. It was belonged to

401
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: Gary Conduit. And of course he told me that basically, uh,

402
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: he gets a lot of cause from interns and people

403
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: who want to know advice about like FBI, and you

404
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: know what, you don't get a second language, you know,

405
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: so you can get into take a listen to Congressperson

406
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: Gary Condit talking with our friend Dr Phil. You developed

407
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Speaker 1: a friendship with her, and you saw her outside the office, correct,

408
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: I saw her one time sorry. I saw her one

409
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Speaker 1: time outside the office at a restaurant, and she came

410
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: by my condo about your conda once, well, maybe twice.

411
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Speaker 1: I think it was twice she came by. But once again,

412
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Speaker 1: I want to make this clear, there's nothing unusual about

413
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Speaker 1: someone coming by my conduct. A lot of people did, so,

414
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, people have made some speculation about that means

415
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: something special. But you know, well, we're the police making

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Speaker 1: something out of that. Try are you trying to absolutely yeah, yeah,

417
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: well they were trying to make something everything they could.

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Speaker 1: We know that at the time Schendra went missing, Gary Condent,

419
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: the congress person, was actually in a meeting with the

420
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: then Vice president, so I know he was not there

421
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: at the time we think Schendra went missing. But I

422
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: also know, Cheryl McCollum, that he has waffled on how

423
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: many times he saw Chendra. To explain away all the

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00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: phone calls, all the messages he left there at her home.

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00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, let's take a listen to

426
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: Congressman Condent leaving a message with Schendram. Maybe you're out

427
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: of the out of the country or something. Anyway, Now again, Cheryl,

428
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: we know that at the time we think Schendra went missing,

429
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: that he was actually in a closed door meeting with

430
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: the vice president. Okay, regarding his relationship with her, he's

431
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: always been very very unclear at something. Uh, anyone who

432
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: is asked not to carry their I D and wallet

433
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: with them to me, is setting them up. Why do

434
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: you say that, Well, it just seems like it just

435
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: seems ironic that if someone didn't have I D and wallet.

436
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: How you know, if something happened to them, then you

437
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: would not be able to identify them as fast. I

438
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: know that I've been told that, oh, he didn't want

439
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: to being you know, incriminated, But basically I just can't

440
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: believe she would not carry I D and wallet. And

441
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: also she left some of her jewelry a hand of God.

442
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: It is a little necklace I gave to her in Israel.

443
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: She left it in the apartment and she never takes

444
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: it off because maybe showering it just substance doesn't strike me.

445
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: Do you think someone told her not to carry her

446
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: I D oh whenever she went to see him? How

447
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: do you know that? I think either Linda or Chounder

448
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: told me. I guessed that she was seeing him, But

449
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: why would you go out without an idea. Why would

450
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: you go running in if you're going to a park

451
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 1: without a phone, without an idea. It doesn't make sense.

452
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: To Cheryl McCullum. The gist for me of what miss

453
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 1: Leady is saying is that there are so many loose

454
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,239
Speaker 1: ends in the case that have never been tied up,

455
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: never been answered. And I have a couple other questions

456
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: as far as people in jail they have killed people,

457
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: do they always put their tattoos about the women that

458
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: have been killed that they have killed on their body

459
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: or the people who are a jail just generally make

460
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: tattoos of attractive women. You know, Cheryl, have you seen

461
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: the tattoo that gon Dk has. It's Chandra Levy, it's

462
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: her face. It's certainly a striking Reasonble's due, There's no

463
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: doubt about that. And again it begs question, why why

464
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: would he do that if it's not to brag or

465
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: to force people that you know asked him about it

466
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: so that he can tell the stories. Well. To hear

467
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: it from defense attorney Bernie Grimm, he and I got

468
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: into a fight over it. He says that Gondk bragged

469
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: about killing Chandra to make himself a big guy behind bars.

470
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: But to me, you don't brag about that. He told

471
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: that to a penpal that he talked to on the phone.

472
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: He told people behind bars, He told the so called

473
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: star witness. Morales said that to many other people, combined

474
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: with keeping clippings about Schendre Levi having her face tattooed

475
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: on his body, not only that, attacking multiple women within

476
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: yards of where Saundra's remains were found in the same

477
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: m o dark headed women jogging in the park from behind.

478
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: You would have walked right up to him before this

479
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: trial had ever started, and you would have said, tell

480
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: me one thing about that scene that's never been in

481
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: the paper. Either he can or he can't. You're right

482
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: if he knew something very specific. Where's her pinky ring?

483
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: Tell me what kind of knot the pants were tied in,

484
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: Tell me something, Educate me. I bet he can. Sundrew's

485
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: mother is with me here, Susan Levy. Do you recall

486
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: that day you learned Sandra was no longer a missing

487
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: person but her remains have been identified? Horrible day. Your

488
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: world is shattered, nothing is never the same, and you

489
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: ask God why and attempts it tempts to your faith

490
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: in the belief of God, because God is sleeping on

491
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: the job. That's how I felt. My husband used to

492
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: say that now I feel it more that way. Why

493
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: such violent? Why did this ever happen to happen? And

494
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: how many other people that have gone through the same thing.

495
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: And I even think of that people that may have

496
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: been in my community that when missing and they could

497
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: find that person's body remains. So it's not not easy.

498
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: This is not easy to be here doing this. And

499
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: I wish we had my daughter ability to be able

500
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: to tell us, you know, but she she'll say, what

501
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: difference does it make? And I say, it makes a

502
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: difference for a lot of people. Do you believe, Cheryl McCullum,

503
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: that there there were claims of prosecutorial misconduct, which I

504
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: don't necessarily believe. Do you believe that this is just

505
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: a sore spot for the prosecutors that they don't want

506
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: to reopen a can of worms? Is that what they

507
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,479
Speaker 1: consider this case to be nathy? I don't know. I mean, again,

508
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: I'm pretty stulled because you were my prosecutor, and then

509
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: I had a string of other prosecutors that were extraordinary

510
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: as well, and they would fight, they would put cases up,

511
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: even if they believe they were going to lode them,

512
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: because they knew it was the right thing to do.

513
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: And in this situation, I cannot think of a reason

514
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: that you would not double back, start over, build your

515
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: case without the one lion witness, or to your point,

516
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: put him up and make him now talk about it.

517
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: Why would you lie? And then all these other people

518
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: didn't lie. You know, the penpal had no reason to lie.

519
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: The other salemates had no reason to life. His tattoo,

520
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: don't lie, his similar transactions. Don't lie his criminal history

521
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: in El Salvador. Don't lie. Put it up fight? And

522
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: why did this lady show up at the beginning of

523
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: a trial, very beginning of the trial, and that this

524
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: whole thing unravels that fast, absolutely, And I'll say something else, Nacy.

525
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: Not only that the person that suposedly was going to

526
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: be this big star witness, why is he still in

527
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: protective custody? Why is he in the witness detection program?

528
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: You should only get that if you actually helped once

529
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: you know the prosecution, not that you lied. I don't

530
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: understand any of this, is what I know. I know

531
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: that this case garnered attention at the beginning because Congress

532
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: then congress Person Gear Reconduct had allegedly been having a

533
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: romantic relationship with a female intern over twenty years younger

534
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: than him, a married congressman. Well, police say he has

535
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: been exonerated, that he was in a meeting with the

536
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: Vice President, Dick Cheney at the time Schandra goes missing.

537
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: But what about gun DK, Why was he cut free?

538
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: Why hasn't the case been prosecuted, and more to my

539
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: point right now, why are prosecutors stonewalling Schandra's mother on

540
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: retesting the evidence. This case is not over. Nancy Grace

541
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend,