1
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,720
Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

3
00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb.

4
00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,959
Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

5
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 3: two in our Halloween season series on locomotive horror and

6
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,920
Speaker 3: Trains of Terror. Now. In the last episode, we talked

7
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,879
Speaker 3: about how trains are often used in weird fiction and

8
00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,839
Speaker 3: the kinds of themes that they emphasize, including things like

9
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:42,320
Speaker 3: fate and helplessness, isolation, alienation, and especially in nineteenth century stories,

10
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,839
Speaker 3: the irresistible changes brought by technology brought on by the

11
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,239
Speaker 3: steam era, how it was transforming the landscape, transforming our culture,

12
00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,080
Speaker 3: and highlighting maybe the fragility of our minds and bodies.

13
00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,360
Speaker 3: We also talked about the various inputs leading to the

14
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,279
Speaker 3: invention the steam locomotive, and finally we got to the

15
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,679
Speaker 3: Victorian panic about railway madness, a belief you'll find at

16
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,000
Speaker 3: tested in a bunch of British newspapers from the eighteen

17
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,800
Speaker 3: sixties through about eighteen eighty, according to which it is

18
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,399
Speaker 3: common for men to be driven instantly, violently insane by

19
00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 3: the vibrations of a railway carriage in transit. So that

20
00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 3: was part one. If you haven't heard that yet, it's

21
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,279
Speaker 3: definitely worth a listen, go back and check that out first.

22
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,800
Speaker 3: But we're here today to talk about more that's right.

23
00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,880
Speaker 2: This week, we're going to be getting into the more

24
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 2: familiar territory of the ghost train. Though even as I

25
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,040
Speaker 2: say that and I start thinking about potential mainstream examples,

26
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,520
Speaker 2: it's really hard for me to think of a straight

27
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 2: up haunted train in popular media like Polar Express maybe

28
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 2: comes to minds like the most mainstream example. Yeah, is

29
00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 2: it just me or do we just not actually have

30
00:01:58,600 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 2: a lot of stories about ghost train?

31
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,920
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting that you frame it that way, because

32
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 3: I was thinking about the ghost trained as a concept

33
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 3: and thinking about how, Yeah, we have the concept of ghosts,

34
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,679
Speaker 3: which are spectral, insubstantial entities that take the form of

35
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 3: a human I guess sometimes an animal, usually human understood

36
00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 3: to be like the soul or the animate image of

37
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,520
Speaker 3: a person who has died. So these are individual human entities.

38
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 3: They usually move around and I don't know, they interact

39
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,760
Speaker 3: in some kind of sensory capacity. You can see them,

40
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 3: they make noise and so forth. But then we also

41
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 3: have the concept of haunted houses or haunted locations, for example,

42
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 3: a church or a cemetery or a battlefield. These are

43
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 3: places where hauntings by individual ghosts happen, most often understood

44
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,160
Speaker 3: to be the location of a tragedy or a death,

45
00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 3: or maybe like a place that the ghost frequented in life.

46
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,560
Speaker 2: The house, the haunted house is usually an actual house.

47
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,480
Speaker 2: I guess. Maybe there are some versions where ooh, there

48
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,120
Speaker 2: was never a house there at all, it was just

49
00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 2: a vacant lot. But for the most part it's like, oh,

50
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,839
Speaker 2: it's the old the old McCormick place there.

51
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly so. But trains are like in this

52
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 3: in between realm where I guess they could sort of

53
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,120
Speaker 3: be both because on one hand, they are moving entities

54
00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,400
Speaker 3: like people, and so they can sort of be a

55
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,799
Speaker 3: moving form that could pass in and out of your awareness.

56
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,079
Speaker 3: And at the same time, trains are locations like houses.

57
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,520
Speaker 3: People go inside them, inhabit them. They have rooms and

58
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 3: corridors and doorways. So a train oddly has the ability

59
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,640
Speaker 3: to be like a wandering ghost itself or like a

60
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,040
Speaker 3: haunted house. And I was trying to think, is there

61
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 3: any equivalent, I guess like a ship, like a you

62
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,960
Speaker 3: could have a ghost ship or a haunted ship. Though,

63
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 3: like you were saying, or I think you were alluding

64
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,320
Speaker 3: to this, most of the ghost train lord that I'm

65
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,560
Speaker 3: aware of and that I could turn up and research

66
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 3: for this episode seems to be about beliefs about a

67
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 3: spectral train that you believe you see passing as an

68
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,839
Speaker 3: outside observer, not a physical train that you get on

69
00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 3: board and then believed to be haunted like a haunted house.

70
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 3: The latter is possible in concept, it just seems like

71
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 3: there's less of that.

72
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is probably an idea that is

73
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,640
Speaker 2: infected by these other concepts, like you said, the haunted house,

74
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,720
Speaker 2: the haunted domicile, and a train is kind of a

75
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,480
Speaker 2: place that you live. It is an environment, but it's

76
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 2: also a vehicle. And we have a long legacy of

77
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 2: ghost ship stories. But it's interesting because that doesn't really

78
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,120
Speaker 2: line up one hundred percent because with the idea of

79
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,400
Speaker 2: a ghost train, because with ghost ships you have, of

80
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,560
Speaker 2: course tales of a flying Dutchman and everything from a

81
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 2: haunted unoccupied vessel maybe it has Dracula on it and

82
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,800
Speaker 2: so forth, or a straight up spectral vessel. But then

83
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 2: a lot of this is based on the historic reality

84
00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,880
Speaker 2: and even contemporary reality of ships that have either been

85
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,240
Speaker 2: damaged or abandoned, or something terrible has happened and they

86
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,960
Speaker 2: are left to be moved around on the water by

87
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,679
Speaker 2: wave and wind, something that isn't really in the cards

88
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 2: for a train, you know, especially in the modern air,

89
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,240
Speaker 2: but even historically, like if you had an unknown train

90
00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,920
Speaker 2: moving around and it was a physical reality, bad things

91
00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,279
Speaker 2: would happen pretty quickly. And yes, the idea does tie

92
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,919
Speaker 2: into fears of those things happening, and I think a

93
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 2: lot of the examples you can look at of ghost

94
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:48,120
Speaker 2: trains are tied to either memories or anxieties concerning train accidents.

95
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, it doesn't really it seems to be influenced

96
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 2: by all these other concepts, but also it doesn't line

97
00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 2: up one percent with any of them either.

98
00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. This is kind of a

99
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,240
Speaker 3: but this also because the train has this potential duality

100
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 3: that it could be like a haunted house or like

101
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,840
Speaker 3: a like a ghost itself. It was making me think

102
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 3: about the different moral understandings we have of individual ghostly

103
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,840
Speaker 3: entities versus haunted locations in horror fiction. Because I don't know,

104
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 3: maybe you have some counter examples to this but I

105
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:27,719
Speaker 3: was thinking that in most horror stories, individual ghosts, though

106
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 3: they invoke fright, are usually looked on with pity once

107
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,000
Speaker 3: you know their story. They are usually said to be

108
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 3: victims in some way, people who suffered, whereas haunted locations

109
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,160
Speaker 3: are often characterized as evil or malicious in themselves. There's

110
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 3: this idea that like a haunted house is a bad place.

111
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,719
Speaker 3: It's like the Overlook hotel. The hotel is evil.

112
00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

113
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 3: And yet while a train could be a location like

114
00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 3: this haunted house that you often think of as a

115
00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 3: bad place. When I read through all this ghost train lord,

116
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 3: I don't get that feeling like, oh the ghost train, Ooh,

117
00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 3: that's wicked, it's bad, it's malicious. Instead, it has more

118
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 3: the character of the individual wandering ghost. It's something that

119
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 3: may be frightening, but is mainly to be kind of

120
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 3: pitied to tell a sad story about.

121
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the impression I get as well. So we'll

122
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:22,520
Speaker 2: keep that in mind as we roll through some of

123
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 2: the specific examples here and perhaps out there there's a

124
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,240
Speaker 2: wish we'll touch on this again. But there are a

125
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,200
Speaker 2: lot of ghost train stories out there. There's a lot

126
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 2: of train related urban legend, so we have things that

127
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 2: have been circulating for a while, and you know, stories

128
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,240
Speaker 2: that are just kicking out. Perhaps, so if you were

129
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,000
Speaker 2: familiar listener with a story of a malicious ghost train,

130
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,880
Speaker 2: or just any ghost train story that we don't mention here,

131
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,000
Speaker 2: or if you have additional thoughts on things we mentioned here,

132
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,000
Speaker 2: obviously write in because we would love to hear from you.

133
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely, contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

134
00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,280
Speaker 3: Please share with us your local ghost train story, especially

135
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,200
Speaker 3: if there's something unusual about it.

136
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 2: Now, before we get into specific ghost trains and ghost

137
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 2: train stories, I do want to just kind of an

138
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,520
Speaker 2: overview of what seemed to me to be sort of

139
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:16,080
Speaker 2: like three definite types of ghost trains to consider. Okay, okay,

140
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 2: So the first type we'll come back to this one

141
00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 2: in some specifics here shortly, is the idea of just

142
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 2: lights and or sounds of trains on or near the

143
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,200
Speaker 2: tracks that never materialize. The idea that I hear the

144
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,520
Speaker 2: sound or I see the lights of a train that

145
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: should not be here, and then that train never arrives.

146
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 2: But it causes you a lot of anxiety because, oh,

147
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 2: if there's not supposed to be a train here right now,

148
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:40,319
Speaker 2: that's a bad thing.

149
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,840
Speaker 3: You know, this ties into you and I were looking

150
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 3: at an example of a play about a ghost train

151
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 3: off Mike. We ended up not getting into it in

152
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,480
Speaker 3: our outline really here, but there's a play called The

153
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,360
Speaker 3: Ghost Train by an author named Arnold Ridley, which turns

154
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,080
Speaker 3: out to have a quite bizarre twist where there's like

155
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,760
Speaker 3: a story of a ghost train and then it turns

156
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:07,520
Speaker 3: out to be like a communist counter espionage thriller. But anyway,

157
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 3: I think that that story was said to be inspired

158
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 3: by the author's experience of being stuck at a train

159
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,959
Speaker 3: station at night and hearing what sounded like a train

160
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 3: approaching and thinking it was coming arriving to pick him up,

161
00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 3: but then it just like seeming to pass without him

162
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,560
Speaker 3: ever seeing it. And the explanation is the train was

163
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 3: there was a train coming by him, but it was

164
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 3: being diverted along a different track that was. So he's

165
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 3: like in the night hearing a train approach and then

166
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 3: leave but never sees anything.

167
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 2: You know, the approach of a train is kind of haunting,

168
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,440
Speaker 2: almost supernatural occurrence in some ways, you know, because you're

169
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 2: standing there and perhaps you hear just like that initial

170
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,599
Speaker 2: hum of the rails, maybe the air is suddenly a

171
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,560
Speaker 2: little bit different. You get to get some of that

172
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,679
Speaker 2: sort of underground air coming out if you're in a

173
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 2: subway system, all ahead of the actual roar of the train,

174
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 2: the lights of the train, and so forth, there are

175
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 2: a lot of subtle hints leading up to the arrival.

176
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,840
Speaker 2: All right. So that's the first, you know, rough categorization

177
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 2: for ghost trains. The second one I want to highlight

178
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,559
Speaker 2: are just straight up overtly creepy or ghostly trains, straight

179
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 2: up spectral trains, trains with ghosts on them that are

180
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 2: sometimes connected to railway disasters but sometimes to other mishaps

181
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,199
Speaker 2: and tragedies and so forth. And then there's this third area,

182
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,240
Speaker 2: and this is empty trains witnessed moving down the tracks.

183
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 2: And this is the category that is going to include both.

184
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,360
Speaker 2: Just straight up, here's a train. It doesn't look like

185
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,319
Speaker 2: it has people on it, but it is a physical train.

186
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,680
Speaker 2: And also here's a train that is you know, there's

187
00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,600
Speaker 2: nothing suspect about it's about who's piloting it. We know

188
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 2: it's either we can see the human or we know

189
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,720
Speaker 2: that this is an automated rails system, whatever the case.

190
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,280
Speaker 2: But why is there a train with no people on it.

191
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,640
Speaker 2: Why is it stopping and letting no one out and

192
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,120
Speaker 2: then continuing on its way.

193
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,000
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny how this connects to the idea

194
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,360
Speaker 3: of the ghost ship which you were talking about, could

195
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,640
Speaker 3: be inspired by sightings of real ships that were saying

196
00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 3: people have abandoned them. And you see a ship drifting

197
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,200
Speaker 3: in the waves with nobody on it. That's a very

198
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,640
Speaker 3: chilling site. But that would be a real thing people

199
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,679
Speaker 3: would observe in various situations. Obviously, a train is a

200
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,679
Speaker 3: little bit different, because a train isn't going to be

201
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,760
Speaker 3: completely abandoned and drifting on the waves. It needs to

202
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,960
Speaker 3: be moving for some reason, like somebody's got to push

203
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 3: a button to make it go. But it may in

204
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 3: fact be empty of passengers, and just like seeing through

205
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,800
Speaker 3: the windows and seeing it empty can be a creepy site.

206
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you know, thinking about the trains that go

207
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,319
Speaker 2: by directly by my house. There's the Marta Train, the

208
00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 2: public transportation train system here in Atlanta, and sometimes there

209
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,720
Speaker 2: are empty train cars that are going by because you

210
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,920
Speaker 2: know that one's done for the night. And then there's

211
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 2: the CSX line, and this is freight, not passengers, though

212
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 2: at least on one occurrence. I did see some empty

213
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,559
Speaker 2: passenger trains on the tracks. I think they were being

214
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 2: I assume they were being moved somewhere, you know, either

215
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,280
Speaker 2: I don't even remember how nice they looked. Maybe they

216
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,320
Speaker 2: were brand new being moved somewhere to go into service,

217
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 2: or they were being retired or scrapped or something. But

218
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,280
Speaker 2: you know, there is something potentially creepy about seeing this

219
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 2: space that is made for people, devoid of people, but

220
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,600
Speaker 2: still in motion, as if it's going somewhere but without people.

221
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,280
Speaker 3: A lot of horror movies used to great effect the

222
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 3: empty subway train, you know, the subway arrives in the station,

223
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 3: the doors open, there's nobody inside, nobody on the train.

224
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,120
Speaker 3: It is a creepy feeling.

225
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 2: Now. I was reading a bit more about this idea

226
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,640
Speaker 2: of ghost trains, and there is this unofficial classification for

227
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,120
Speaker 2: a ghost train, at least in Britain, that has nothing

228
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,040
Speaker 2: to do with hauntings. And these are trains, according to

229
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,400
Speaker 2: Amanda Ruggeri and Why Britain Has Secret Ghost Trains twenty

230
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,360
Speaker 2: fifteen BBC. These are low frequency routes that often entail

231
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,439
Speaker 2: mostly empty, if not entirely empty cars, and this is

232
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 2: a reality that the author describes as being due to

233
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,720
Speaker 2: a quote bureaucratic hangover.

234
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,439
Speaker 3: Okay, so these are trains that are operating normally. They're

235
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 3: just like they haven't adjusted to the fact that there

236
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,120
Speaker 3: is little or no demand for travel along the route

237
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:32,160
Speaker 3: where they're going.

238
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,920
Speaker 2: That's correct. She goes on to write, there is no

239
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 2: single definition of what constitutes a ghost train, although the

240
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,560
Speaker 2: general consensus is that it's when a service is so

241
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 2: infrequent the train becomes effectively useless, slippery or not. Though

242
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 2: the term ghost train seems apt, it implies a service

243
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 2: that is not exactly whole, something that whispers through towns

244
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 2: and countryside, leaving barely a dent in its wake. And

245
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,280
Speaker 2: it's really interesting to read about these because a lot

246
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,640
Speaker 2: of people don't, you know, aren't even aware that these exist. Perhaps,

247
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 2: But there are hobbyists, ghost train hunters, they call themselves,

248
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 2: who seek these out. They try and find these lines

249
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 2: or these particular trains, and sometimes they run at strange hours,

250
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,280
Speaker 2: and you know, they're stopping. It stops their way out

251
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,000
Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere and so forth. But

252
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 2: they kind of like pride themselves on hunting them down

253
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 2: and getting their pictures made on them. Or with them.

254
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 2: But as the article explains, these trains are often legal

255
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,840
Speaker 2: placeholders to keep a line from being closed. Absolutely the

256
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 2: sort of lines that are mostly useless currently, but it

257
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 2: would be controversial to close them. It would be perhaps

258
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 2: bureaucratically expensive or require a lot of effort to close them.

259
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,920
Speaker 2: And another big fact is, of course, you know, populations

260
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 2: don't stay the same. You know, what may be a

261
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,480
Speaker 2: ghost station and a ghost train line today could be

262
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 2: vitally important, say five years from now, ten years from now,

263
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,520
Speaker 2: as population shift and new communities develop and so forth.

264
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 2: The more official name for these are parliamentary trains, since

265
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 2: in the past and at any rate, it took an

266
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 2: act of Parliament to shut down a line, so against

267
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,200
Speaker 2: speaking to the amount of effort that it would go

268
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 2: you'd have to go to to actually close one of these.

269
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 2: There of course corresponding parliamentary ghost train stations. Again, these

270
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 2: are also sought out by hobbyists, and these trains and

271
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 2: these groups are still very much around, so I would

272
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 2: love to hear from any ghost train hunters out there.

273
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,840
Speaker 2: I also have to note that, especially with subway systems,

274
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,480
Speaker 2: there are various examples of ghost stations that are no

275
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,760
Speaker 2: longer in use, often for logistical reasons or expansion reasons,

276
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,720
Speaker 2: such as the famous City Hall station in New York City,

277
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 2: noted for its Romanesque Revival architecture. Sometimes stations such as

278
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 2: this are used on tours, or they're repurposed. And yeah,

279
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,360
Speaker 2: there's something captivating about the idea of such places, stops

280
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,440
Speaker 2: that are on the line but no longer stops, human

281
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 2: spaces that have literally been carved out of the interior

282
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,120
Speaker 2: of the earth, but are just no longer used by

283
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 2: human beings. And you know, after I was putting together

284
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,040
Speaker 2: my notes on this section, I was walking back to

285
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 2: my house from a place that I was working remotely,

286
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,840
Speaker 2: and as luck would have it, I was walking right

287
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,640
Speaker 2: past a ghost tunnel of the Marta rail system here

288
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,560
Speaker 2: in Atalanta. There's about two hundred feet of tunnel, originally

289
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 2: built for a Tucker North to cabline expansion that was

290
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,400
Speaker 2: never completed, now just a yawning urban cave amidst other

291
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 2: track structures. And I really don't think i'd noticed this

292
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 2: until yesterday. I looked up and there's a YouTube page

293
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 2: called V twelve Productions that does a lot of stuff

294
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 2: on trains and also some stuff on like urban and

295
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 2: Atlanta architecture and so forth. They did a nice video

296
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 2: on it about six years ago. So now I know

297
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 2: all about this kind of haunting cave, this unnatural human

298
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 2: made cave in the earth, just you know, a stone's

299
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 2: throw from where I live.

300
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 3: Did you take this photo in our outline here?

301
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 2: I did not. I felt a lot of people have

302
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,399
Speaker 2: sought this out. I think some people were doing a

303
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 2: little sneaking around to get in there and get closer,

304
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,199
Speaker 2: because there's it's not just the tunnel, there's also a

305
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 2: length it's like, what do you call it? A trench

306
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,479
Speaker 2: that was constructed too. Like Basically, the situation was they

307
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:46,199
Speaker 2: were building out the Marta bridgework overhead, and if they

308
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,960
Speaker 2: were going to do this line, they would need to

309
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 2: make the tunnel now rather than later. It would be

310
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,280
Speaker 2: just so much cheaper to go ahead and build the

311
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 2: tunnel early than to do it later once everything else

312
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 2: was built up around it.

313
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 3: The steep cutting in the earth reminding me of that

314
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,160
Speaker 3: haunting descriptive passage from the signalman. Right, you know, there's

315
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 3: just the strip of sky and seeing the stone on

316
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,720
Speaker 3: either side the damp walls. But it's one of these

317
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 3: visions that's both gloomy and beautiful at the same time.

318
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, now getting into some more examples of like straight

319
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,480
Speaker 2: up ghost trains, actual spectral trains, haunted trains, trains associated

320
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 2: with ghosts or supernatural creatures. We're gonna turn briefly here

321
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,359
Speaker 2: once more to Japan. I want to add the caveat

322
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 2: that again. There's so many ghost train traditions around the world,

323
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 2: and some of them are rather popular, but we ultimately

324
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 2: had to focus on ones that maybe had just a

325
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 2: little more in some cases, a little more scholarship around them,

326
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,040
Speaker 2: or just a few more just interesting things to point out,

327
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 2: because some of them are just like, hey, there's a

328
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,399
Speaker 2: ghost train, Yeah, rides around. We're not sure it's going

329
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,399
Speaker 2: where it's coming from maybe Hell, we don't know, And

330
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 2: you know, those are fun and that maybe there's less

331
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 2: meat to chew on.

332
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 3: There for us.

333
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 2: But anyway, there are a few different traditions in Japan,

334
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,400
Speaker 2: one of which concerns the legendary Tanukis of Japan. We've

335
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 2: discussed these before. You have. These are the okai versions

336
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 2: of the actual Japanese raccoon dog, which, to be clear,

337
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 2: are far more closely related to dogs. They are part

338
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 2: of the kind of day family, so they are there

339
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 2: essentially dog can. They are not raccoon can, except in

340
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 2: a very distant since.

341
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 3: They look like raccoons though they've got that kind of

342
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 3: head shape and coloration.

343
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: Now, if you've ever watched the excellent nineteen ninety four

344
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,760
Speaker 2: Studio Ghibli film Pom Poko, then you know all about

345
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 2: these guys, and if you haven't, you should go watch it.

346
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,920
Speaker 2: It's I believe it's on Max in the States, and

347
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 2: it's excellent, taking viewers into the world of shape shifting

348
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 2: by way of their testicles. Bake danuki. These are yokai tanuki,

349
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 2: supernatural tanuki and their struggles alongside a changing, modernizing world.

350
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 2: And this last bit is a common theme in tanuki lore,

351
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 2: especially during the Meiji era. The tanuki are a symbol

352
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,880
Speaker 2: of the folkloric wilds of rural life. The traditional tanuki

353
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 2: statue also entails multiple symbols for good luck, and you'll

354
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 2: find them in both rural and urban Japanese neighborhoods today,

355
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 2: in front of homes and so forth, in pandemonium and parade.

356
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 2: Japanese monsters and the culture of yokai. Michael Dilan Foster

357
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 2: describes ways in which the tanuki and the locomotive stand

358
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 2: in stark opposition to each other. So you know, a

359
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 2: reminder here the first Japanese rail line opened in eighteen

360
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: seventy two and remains an impressive and highly connected form

361
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 2: of public transportation there.

362
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I call reading. And by the way, Michael

363
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 3: Dylan Foster is a folklorist I've cited on the show before.

364
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 3: His book of Yokai is great, but I think I've

365
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 3: seen him write that there was some on record, some

366
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 3: ambivalence about the edition of the railroad to Japanese life.

367
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that seems to be reflected in these

368
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 2: tales of the tanuki. They're sort of two main legends

369
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 2: slash accounts to take into account here concerning the tanuki

370
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 2: and the train, and they both occur where these two

371
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 2: worlds meet, you know, the world of the folklore, magical

372
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: wild and this rapidly modernizing world. So you imagine a

373
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 2: lonely train track running through the wilderness in Japan, and

374
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: if you're aboard one of these trains, or maybe you're

375
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 2: working on the rail, or maybe you're at some sort

376
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 2: of like very rural train station, and suddenly you hear

377
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: the sounds or you see the lights of an oncoming train,

378
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: Well that's a cause for alarm for all the reasons

379
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 2: we've cited so far. So if you're if you're if

380
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 2: you're on a boarded train, perhaps you slow or stop.

381
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 2: If you're working, well, then you know, you freak out.

382
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: You try and get in touch with with with the

383
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 2: folks and let them know that there's some sort of

384
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 2: unexpected train on the track. But then, as is the

385
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: case with ghost trains, sometimes it never shows up. It

386
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: becomes clear that this was a false alarm. There was

387
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: no train, and in this case, via the supernatural Yokai explanation,

388
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: this was clearly the work of the Tanuki's mimicking the

389
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 2: sights and sounds of a train to mess with these humans.

390
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 3: A little trickster is okay. So this, I think is

391
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 3: a is a slightly more humorous take on the ghost train,

392
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 3: Like there's a bit of a spirit of pranksteriness about it.

393
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, where it's like, oh Tanuki's they they got

394
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 2: us again. But then there's a flip side to it

395
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: and uh, and this is where one sees the side

396
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: of a dead Tanuki, perhaps cut in half by train

397
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 2: by a roaring train by the side of the tracks,

398
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 2: and Foster describes it as follows. The confrontation between tanuki

399
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 2: and steam train, a common trope during this period, gestures

400
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 2: dramatically to the changing meanings of yokai. The old forms

401
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: of magic, the shape shifting talents of the tanuki still

402
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: had the power to dazzle and deceive, causing the train

403
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: engineers to proceed with caution through the lonely countryside. But

404
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: the instant they stop believing and plowed full speed ahead,

405
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: the iron mechanism of technology could make the magic powerless,

406
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: transforming a supernatural creature into nothing more than an animal

407
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: body lying dead beside the tracks of progress.

408
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 3: Oh, that's quite poignant.

409
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: And if you are a fan of Pompoco, which again

410
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: is an excellent film, there's a sequence towards the end

411
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: of this movie which has quite a serious ecological message

412
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: and gets into this, you know, some of these topics

413
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 2: we're discussing here, in which some of the tanuki are

414
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 2: run over by automobiles and trucks, and the impact of

415
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: this scene, at least in my understanding, it seems to

416
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 2: mirror the traditions here, the idea that you know, they

417
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: lose their power when they are when they go head

418
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: on head with like the violent nature of progress.

419
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that the magic is gone once it once their

420
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: presence fails to convince anyone to slow the giant machine down.

421
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 2: Now there are other supernatural beings associated with trains. I mean,

422
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: I guess there are other yokai and yuri that may be.

423
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: It may turn up on a train in some tellings,

424
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: but there I read did run across one. There's a

425
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: particular urban legend of a yuri of ghost by the

426
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: name of I think Tiki Tiki. I'm not sure if

427
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: I'm saying this correctly. I think it is. The idea

428
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: here is this is supposed to sound like the sound

429
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: that a half of a woman makes when she crawls

430
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 2: across the ground, because the ghost is that of someone

431
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 2: who was cut in half by a train whoa One

432
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: version of this tale recounted on the MPR podcast Code Switch,

433
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: or more specifically, I Think an article referring to one

434
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: of their episodes that I came across. I do listen

435
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 2: to Code Switch, but I don't think I've heard this

436
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 2: particular episode The Creepiest ghost and monster stories from around

437
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: the World. They mentioned that This particular ghost is sometimes

438
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: named Kashima Raiko, and sometimes she inhabits a bathroom stall

439
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: and asks children who venture into the bathroom to fetch

440
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: her legs from a neighboring stall. And there are other

441
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 2: versions of this too, where she just like basically, you know,

442
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: she's going to cut you in half. That's what she's

443
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: going to do if you run a foul of her.

444
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: But interesting too that it ends up connecting to bathrooms

445
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: because there are a lot of you okai and you

446
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: that seem to be associated with the fear of young

447
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 2: people venturing into perhaps dank or quiet bathroom areas.

448
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 3: Oh man, have we ever done a Halloween episode on

449
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 3: scary bathrooms? I feel like that should be a series.

450
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that would be a good one. There are

451
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 2: a number of yokai that line up with that.

452
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 3: Wait, do we have everything planned for this month? Maybe

453
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 3: we should sub that in. That's a pinch hit.

454
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: Oh, we'll see. We'll have to look at the calendar.

455
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 3: Okay.

456
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: Now.

457
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: There's also a railway tunnel said to be haunted Joman Tunnel,

458
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: and Hokkaido said to be haunted by laborers who died

459
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: in its early twentieth century construction laborers who were then

460
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: either buried on site or walled up in the tunnel

461
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: or side shafts. And for this reason it's also it

462
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 2: also has another name, and that is hito bashira tunnel,

463
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: a term referring to an ancient Japanese form of foundation burial,

464
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: premature burial, and human sacrifice that traces back to ancient

465
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 2: Chinese practices. The concept here is that such a sacrifice

466
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: is necessary to appease the gods on large scale construction projects,

467
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: to prevent them from failing or you know, falling to

468
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: the elements, natural disease, and so forth later on. According

469
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: to Andrea d Antoni down in a Whole twenty nineteen

470
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 2: Japan Review, archaeological evidence suggests that the practice was used

471
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: maybe as late as the sixteenth century in Japan now

472
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: standard Caveat anytime we bring up particular historical cultural examples

473
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: of human sacrifice, we have to drive home that you

474
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: can find examples of human sacrifice in all ancient cultures,

475
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: and there are many examples of foundation burial, human or

476
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: otherwise you can find in different cultures around the world.

477
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: But in Japanese usage, the term hitdobashira, meaning human pillar

478
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 2: itself can also refer to laborers who end up buried

479
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: or dying in one of these construction projects just due

480
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: to bad working conditions, and this seems to be the

481
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: case with Joe Muntunnel. And this leads to various ghost

482
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: stories that invoke actual ritual premature burial. So to read

483
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: more on this, so turned to one of the books

484
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: that Euroko, Yoda and Matt Alt wrote. I reference to

485
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 2: these a lot. They wrote one on Ninja's, they wrote

486
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: one on Yokai, and they wrote one on Yuri. Well.

487
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: In the Yuri book Uri Attack, they point out that

488
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: officials initially dismissed these accounts. For years, the Joman Tunnel

489
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 2: was haunted or had humans buried in the walls until

490
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: around nineteen seventy. That's when there were repairs underway following

491
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: a nineteen sixty eight earthquake that it damaged the tunnel,

492
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 2: and skeletons were discovered in the walls of the tunnel,

493
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: apparently in a standing position, and dozens more were buried

494
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: outside of the tunnel. Some accounts say hundreds of Some

495
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: seemed to point towards a far lesser but still disturbing

496
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: amount of skeletons Now, I don't think any serious historians

497
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: suggest that early twentieth century construction of this tunnel made

498
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: use of ritual human sacrifice, but rather that the skeletal remains,

499
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: as well as some physical evidence and accounts involving the

500
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: construction of the tunnel point out that it was a

501
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: difficult tunnel project with many accidents and that the working

502
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: conditions were dangerous. And Andrea D'Antoni, in the paper I

503
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: cited previously, also discusses the probability that these were forced

504
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 2: laborers as well, So not a ghost train, but a

505
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: ghost train tunnel.

506
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 3: Is there any known like modern folklore about this, Like,

507
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: do people believe there are hauntings related to this tunnel?

508
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the idea is in these have persisted

509
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: for a while that if you trip, you're traveling through

510
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: that tunnel, you might hear strange sounds, maybe see strange sites,

511
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: but it certainly sounds, So there is a tradition of

512
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: it being haunted, and as that paper that I cited

513
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: points out, it's also become sort of a focal point

514
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: for what the author calls dark tourism, where people actually

515
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: seek it out. And we have plenty of examples of

516
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: this obviously in other places around the world, haunted castles,

517
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: haunted cabins, haunted location that have some sort of dark history,

518
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: and they become a target for dark tourism.

519
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 3: I'm a sucker for a ghost tour, even a cheesy one.

520
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I am glad you mentioned that, because that is

521
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: one of the problems about research and ghost trains is

522
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: that you have actual traditions of ghost trains, and then

523
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: you have plenty of trains, either actual or maybe almost

524
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: trains that do like ghost Halloween related events in rock. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

525
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: it kind of messes with your search results sometimes.

526
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 3: Oh I bet a train could make a really good

527
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: haunted house, though, you know, because it's already like lineary

528
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 3: moving through it. I don't know. Then again, is the

529
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: is the terrain of the inside of a train varied enough?

530
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think serious professional haunt designers would probably argue

531
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: that you just don't have enough room to move people

532
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: around and have the various distractions and frights. But you know,

533
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: it's like a simple haunted house and as a one

534
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: off gimmick, I'd be down for it. Haunted subway train,

535
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:03,239
Speaker 2: that's great, let's do it.

536
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: Okay, so we've talked about shape shifting tanuki's pretending to

537
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 3: be trains. We've talked about haunted train tunnels, but what

538
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 3: about just like a full on spectral train, a train

539
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: that is like a wandering ghost in itself in that

540
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: people seem to see or hear it passing by them

541
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 3: along the tracks, and it turns out there's no physical

542
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 3: train there.

543
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: Well, all aboard for Lincoln's funeral train, the spectral version,

544
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 2: because there was an actual Lincoln funeral train, because in

545
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: eighteen sixty five, after the assassination of the US President,

546
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: funeral services were held, his body laid in state, and

547
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: then a funeral train transported his body at low speeds

548
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: through seven states to be buried in Springfield, Illinois. A

549
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: pilot train went ahead of the nine car funeral train

550
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: to make sure the tracks were clear. And you know,

551
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: the people you know heard this go by or gathered

552
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: to WI should go by. Included a map for you here, Joe,

553
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: showing all the different cities it hit on the way.

554
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: Right, so it was not a direct route. It went

555
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: up from Washington, d C. Through Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey,

556
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: and New York, and then background upstate New York to

557
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: through like Albany and Buffalo and then down through Ohio,

558
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 3: Indiana and finally Illinois.

559
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, they could. You could really do like a band

560
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: tour t shirt for this. I would be tempted to

561
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: create one if we were more of like a US

562
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: history podcast and not Science and Culture. Now, the ghost

563
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: train story here allegedly dates back to the thirties and forties,

564
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: and it involves a spectral version of this train continuing

565
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: to make this journey once a year in April, and

566
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: stopping clocks and watches on the way. And I think

567
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: a lot of these are also these sightings where are

568
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: located in New York. And in fact, one of the

569
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 2: main sources on this that everyone points to this a

570
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: nineteen forty five article in New York History by folklorist

571
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: Louis C. Jonas Session titled some Historic Ghosts of New York.

572
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: Okay, let's hear it.

573
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: The author writes, the first train is followed by a second,

574
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: this time with a single flat car draped as is

575
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: the one before it, but on this car is a

576
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: lonely coffin, nothing more neither ghost nor skeleton. As the

577
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: train approaches, a black carpet seems to unroll along the

578
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: track before it, and all sound, even the passing of

579
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: Frates is blanketed. Men know which day in spring the

580
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: ghost train has passed through. For all clocks stop and

581
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: wait five to eight minutes before they begin again.

582
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 3: Now, this seems to me to be, at least as

583
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: far as I know, a really unusual kind of ghost story,

584
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 3: because ghost stories are typically very local. You know, it's like,

585
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: here's the local phenomenon. The locals claim to have seen it,

586
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: or maybe people who come to visit, but it's tied

587
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: to a specific location. This is going cross country, it's

588
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 3: going all over the place, going through New York and

589
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: saying stopping clocks as it goes along.

590
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, that's the story. But then I guess

591
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: we have to keep in mind that the story itself

592
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: could be very local. That's true, and you know, it

593
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 2: could be isolated to just parts of New York State,

594
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 2: but then gets passed on as if this is happening everywhere.

595
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, because the actual trains route was so long, it

596
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 3: gives the impression that it's all along the tracks, but

597
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 3: it could be. Yeah, like you're saying, just a local story.

598
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: Now, this particular ghost story, it's interesting in a number

599
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: of ways. On one hand, it does seem to kind

600
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: of line up with ancient folkloric traditions of the procession

601
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 2: of the dead, in which souls proceed along a road

602
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: or path bound for the underworld. And of course this

603
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: matches up nicely with some of the ideas we discussed about,

604
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: like why the train is captivating. You know, the idea

605
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: of it is fate at his point A to point B,

606
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: there's no getting off, and in this case the train

607
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 2: is bound for the underworld or the afterlife, or the

608
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 2: great beyond in one form or the other.

609
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 3: Also tying into the uniqueness of tunnels passing into that

610
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 3: literally under the earth.

611
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can. You can also line this up

612
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: with traditions of the wild hunt, and you know, in

613
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: another other traditions of the procession of the dead, which

614
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: sometimes are more malicious, you know, it's the dam going

615
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: into hell, and other times it's more solemn. You know.

616
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: It's hard to say exactly how we're supposed to feel

617
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 2: about Lincoln's ghost train. The author here in the nineteen

618
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: forty five paper is is light on interpretation, but I

619
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: get the impression that it's meant to be somber, kind

620
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: of a folkloric expression of communal shock and grief, aligned

621
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: perhaps to sightings of unidentified trains or strange sites and

622
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 2: sounds by the tracks and so forth.

623
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 3: That's interesting. I'm a little curious. I don't know if

624
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 3: you know what to make of this, but I'm curious

625
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,959
Speaker 3: why the description from Jonah Session mentions that the train

626
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 3: is moving along and it only has the coffin, and

627
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: it says no skeleton. Would people be expecting to see

628
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: the skeleton?

629
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 2: I guess they wanted. I guess the author's trying to

630
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 2: drive home the idea that it's that it's tasteful.

631
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, it almost seems like it's

632
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: like a very respectful ghost story, you know, in keeping

633
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 3: with presidential decorum. It's like, no gory details, no signs

634
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 3: of decay. You're just seeing the coffin. It's just a box.

635
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no like ghost Lincoln's gonna get you. Yeah.

636
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: It does seem to be more of this, this expression

637
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: of communal shock and grief. Yeah. Now, As an aside, though,

638
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: it is worth noting that Lincoln's personal ghost, not just

639
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 2: his train, has long been said to haunt the White House,

640
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 2: as well as various former residences of Araham Lincoln, and

641
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: offices that the sixteenth US president held or occupied for

642
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: some amount of time. This of course, raises all sorts

643
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: of questions about how many places the ghost of a

644
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: single person can manifest in. But I would if we

645
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: were to believe all these accounts, it would seem like

646
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: a lot.

647
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 3: It's got to go both ways, right, Like how many

648
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: different places can one ghost be in? And also how

649
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 3: many different ghosts can be in one house. I would

650
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 3: guess the White House probably has a lot.

651
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: They do. Now, we know from our media consumption that

652
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: the maximum number of ghosts in a given location is thirteen.

653
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: So I haven't done a full count, So Joe, you're

654
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: gonna have to count them as I proceed here.

655
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll be your Matthew Lillard.

656
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: According to the White House Historical Society, the White House

657
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: ghosts include the following. In addition to Abraham Lincoln, so

658
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and count him as one, we also

659
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: have Willie Lincoln, his son who actually died in the

660
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 2: White House in eighteen sixty two of typhoid fever, Mary Lincoln,

661
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 2: as well Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, Dolly Madison, John Tyler,

662
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 2: William Henry Harrison, first president to die in the White House,

663
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: Abigail Adams, former landowner of the essentially the property there,

664
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: David Burns, Anna Surrett, mother of Lincoln assassination conspirator Mary Sewrett,

665
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 2: also an unnamed British soldier Jeremiah Smith, and then finally

666
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: the ghost of a fifteen year old boy known only

667
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: as the Thing according to reports around nineteen eleven.

668
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 3: Wow, I would not have guessed that many. And also like,

669
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: didn't most of these people not actually die in the

670
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 3: White House?

671
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, most of them didn't. So yeah, raises questions like

672
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: do you have to die somewhere to haunt that place

673
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 2: or you can just have important associations with that place?

674
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 2: Hard to say, But did we hit thirteen?

675
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 3: No? I failed in my mission. I forgot to count.

676
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 3: There's got to be okay, I'll estimate. Yes.

677
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: Nixon's ghost, by the way, was not listed, though Nixon's ghost,

678
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: of course, has appeared on The Simpsons. Yes, so I

679
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: was not familiar with Lincoln's ghost trained before. I don't

680
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: know if this, don't know to what extent this is

681
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: still an active bit of a folklore. If this is

682
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: active ghost story, an active ghost story at all. I

683
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: don't know when the most recent alleged sighting of Lincoln's

684
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: ghost train occurred. So this is definitely a case where

685
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear from anyone out there. Were you

686
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: aware with the tradition of Lincoln's ghost train? Were you

687
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 2: aware of it like organically like and have you ever

688
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: seen it? I definitely want to hear from anyone who

689
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 2: has seen Lincoln's ghost train as it proceeds spectrally stopping clocks,

690
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 2: you know, along the train line or anywhere. I mean,

691
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: that's that's another question, like does it have to if

692
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 2: this is a ghost train, does it have to adhere

693
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: to the previous itinerary? Or can it just pop up anywhere?

694
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: Can it pop up in the New York Subway? I

695
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: don't know.

696
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, if ghosts of human bodies can walk through walls,

697
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 3: which regular human bodies cannot do, can ghost trains leave

698
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 3: the tracks which regular trains cannot do?

699
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 2: Maybe? So? I mean the Polar Express pulls out in

700
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 2: front of the Boy's house, right, So yeah, it shows

701
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: that anything is possible.

702
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: All right. Next, I wanted to talk about some connections

703
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 3: between railroad lore and so called ghost lights. There are

704
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 3: a number of connections of this kind in stories from

705
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 3: all throughout the United States, and I believe some other

706
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 3: countries as well. But there really are a lot of

707
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 3: these that I'm aware of in US traditions. You can

708
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 3: find them in you know, little local legends from places

709
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 3: all around the country. And in reading about them, I

710
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 3: came to notice that in a lot of these stories,

711
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 3: the so called ghost light is not actually said to

712
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: come from a train itself. In a few cases it is,

713
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: but in a lot of cases there's another source. So

714
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: here's one example I wanted to talk about. That is

715
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 3: the Mayco ghost Light. So there's a famous railway ghost

716
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: light associated with a small community in southeastern North Carolina

717
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 3: called Maco, which is just outside of the city of Wilmington.

718
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: And to establish the alleged origin of this story, I

719
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 3: want to turn into a book by a scholar named

720
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 3: Richard Wallzer. This was This book is called North Carolina Legends,

721
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: published by the North Carolina Division of Archives in history

722
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 3: in the year nineteen eighty. And here's what Wallser says.

723
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 3: At a small Brunswick County station of Maco, fifteen miles

724
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 3: west of Wilmington, a slow freight train was puffing down

725
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 3: the track. In the caboose was Joe Baldwin, a flagman.

726
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: A jerking noise startled him, and he was aware that

727
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 3: his caboose had become uncoupled from the rest of the train,

728
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 3: which went heedlessly on its way. As the caboose slackened speed,

729
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 3: Joe looked up and saw the beaming light of a

730
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: fast passenger train bearing down upon him. Grabbing his lantern,

731
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 3: he waved it frantically to warn the oncoming engineer of

732
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 3: the imminent danger. It was too late. At a trestle

733
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 3: over the swamp, the passenger train plowed into the caboose.

734
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 3: Joe was decapitated. His head flew into the swamp on

735
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 3: one side of the track, his lantern on the other.

736
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 3: It was days before the destruction caused by the wreck

737
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: was cleared away, and when Joe's head could not be found,

738
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 3: his body was buried without it. But the story does

739
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 3: not end there because Wallser says that thereafter, I say,

740
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 3: on misty nights, people would see a light in the

741
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 3: darkness that was attributed to the ghost of Joe Baldwin,

742
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: the headless ghost wandering around in the swamp or along

743
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 3: the train tracks looking for his head. Now, some versions

744
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 3: of the story say that there's like a single light

745
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 3: that swings back and forth like lantern, moving through the country,

746
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: and as it gets closer and closer to the observer,

747
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 3: it gets brighter and brighter until it kind of like

748
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 3: flares up and turns into this big brilliance and then

749
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 3: just poofs disappears. There are other versions of the story

750
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 3: that say that you might see like two lights maybe

751
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 3: going toward one another, as if you know, one is

752
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 3: the light from the caboo swinging to worn and then

753
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 3: the other is the light of the approaching train, and

754
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 3: then eventually they cross because I guess they're both ghosts

755
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 3: in this case, so railroad ghost lore and a ghost light.

756
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: But in most cases the ghost light is not thought

757
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 3: to be the train itself. Rather it's the lantern of

758
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 3: this man who was killed in a terrible train accident. Now,

759
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: a claim famously repeated all over in many sources is

760
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 3: that here we come back to US presidential history. That

761
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 3: US President Grover Cleveland, who was famously present the only

762
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 3: president to have two non consecutive terms. So he was

763
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 3: president from eighteen eighty five to eighteen eighty nine, and

764
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 3: then again from eighteen ninety three eight to ninety seven

765
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 3: that Cleveland personally witnessed the Maco Ghost Light, and I

766
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 3: thought that was kind of interesting. He allegedly enjoyed the

767
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 3: story and talked about the Makeo Ghost Light in some

768
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 3: of his speeches. But I was reading some follow up

769
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 3: about this in an article for the Wilmington Star News

770
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 3: by Ben Steelman. The article was titled did Grover Cleveland

771
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 3: ever see the Maco Light? And despite the number of

772
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: sources that spread this claim, especially in more recent decades,

773
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 3: investigation of older sources reveals actually something quite different. So

774
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,479
Speaker 3: Steelman mentions a feature in the Sunday Star News from

775
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: March twenty eighth, nineteen forty eight, which says that, according

776
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 3: to records, Cleveland was traveling on the Wilmington, Manchester and

777
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 3: Augusta Railroad sometimes I think this was sometime between his

778
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 3: two non consecutive presidential terms when the train stopped somewhere

779
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 3: to refill its water reserves, and according to this article,

780
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 3: Cleveland got out of the train during the stop to

781
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 3: take a walk, during which he noticed the conductor was

782
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 3: waving two different lights, one green and one white, and

783
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 3: so he asked the question, why are you waving two

784
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: lanterns instead of one. And someone explained to the president

785
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 3: the story of Joe Baldwin and said that because Baldwin was,

786
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 3: you know, always out here looking for his head with

787
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 3: one light, railway workers had to use two lights on

788
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: this stretch, two different colored lights to signal other trains.

789
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 3: So if you're a train, you know, passing through this

790
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 3: stretch of tracks, you see two different colored lights ahead, Okay,

791
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 3: that's an actual signal to the approaching trains that we

792
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 3: need to stop. There's an obstruction on the tracks. But

793
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: if you just see one light, that's just a ghost. Ignore,

794
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: plow on ahead. Seems almost to have some similarities to

795
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 3: the Tanuki magic thing. It's like, you know, oh, one light, yeah,

796
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 3: don't worry about it, just a ghost to go on.

797
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then also an example of like some of

798
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: the haunt loses its power in the face of like

799
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: modernity and logic, where it's like, oh, yeah, there's a

800
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: ghost light out there yet, but it's not. It's not

801
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: the appropriate color, it's not the right code, so it's

802
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 2: no big deal. Just ignore it.

803
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 3: But I have doubts about this. I don't know, maybe

804
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: somebody with North Carolina railroad knowledge could set me straight.

805
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,240
Speaker 3: But I just kind of doubt that if an engine

806
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 3: driver saw one light, they'd be like, ah, it's fine,

807
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 3: just keep going. Anyway, there's this difference in where the

808
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 3: Grover Cleveland story lands. Older sources do not say that

809
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 3: Cleveland actually saw the light, just that somebody told him

810
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 3: the story, And apparently this got garbled in subsequent published

811
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: retellings beginning in the nineteen forties, and then ended up

812
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: with the legend that a former president had seen the

813
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 3: ghost himself. However, here things get kind of interesting. Steelman

814
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 3: also explains the work of a local historian named James Burke,

815
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 3: not that James Burke a different one who had written

816
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: books on the Wilmington and Weldon Railroad, so sort of

817
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 3: local railroad historian. And this guy looked into the origins

818
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 3: of the Joe Baldwin Railroad decapitation story and could not

819
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 3: find any evidence that the original story ever took place either.

820
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 3: In fact, he couldn't find any evidence of a person

821
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 3: named Joe or Joseph Baldwin living around Wilmington at that time.

822
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 3: Now there is something that may have gotten distorted here.

823
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 3: The Star News article says, quote Burke did find accounts, however,

824
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: of an accident on the Wilmington, Manchester and Augusta in

825
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 3: January eighteen fifty six along a curvy stretch outside Wilmington

826
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 3: known as the Rabbit Snake Grade near Hoods Creek, in

827
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 3: which a conductor named Charles Baldwin was fatally injured. Burke

828
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: thinks the details of this incident were garbled in the

829
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 3: oral tradition of the story. However, even this, so, this

830
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 3: accident could not have taken place at anything called the

831
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: Mako Station because Maco didn't exist in eighteen fifty six,

832
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 3: so at the time the station had a different name.

833
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 3: So we've got several different transformations of the original story

834
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: on our hands. Who was injured, how when and where,

835
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 3: and who allegedly witnessed the ghost. All of these got

836
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 3: changed in the retelling, which makes me think back to

837
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 3: our episodes on the Telephone Game, you know, the empirical

838
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 3: research about how details of stories get changed in retellings.

839
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 3: The kind of just unavoidable process of the transformation of

840
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 3: a story, including all of these types of key details

841
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 3: as it gets repeated and repeated. Yeah, finally, the Wilmington

842
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 3: Star News article says, quote the light was unseen after

843
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy seven when the CSX line pulled up the

844
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 3: railroad tracks in the Maco vicinity. More recently, paranormal investigations

845
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 3: claim to have caught evidence of the Makeo light on

846
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: camera and I looked it up and yeah, it does

847
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 3: seem recently people have been like looking for it out there,

848
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 3: trying to get it.

849
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: So, just to be clear, does the Maco light or

850
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: the Maco lights do they have the presidential seal of

851
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: approval here? Do we really know one way or another?

852
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: I think we do not know. Okay, the administration has

853
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 3: been ambiguous on this, but note that you know this

854
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 3: is part of a broader phenomenon of ghost lights, which

855
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 3: don't always necessarily connect to trains. A lot of times

856
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 3: they're just disconnected. People in a certain vantage point claim

857
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 3: to see, or in some cases definitely do see lights

858
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 3: that don't have of very easy to explain origin. We've

859
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 3: talked about this on the show before. We've gotten into

860
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 3: some of the main scientific or skeptical explanations where these

861
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 3: mysterious lights come from. There are a number of different possibilities,

862
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 3: but very often they're just like reflected lights from normal

863
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 3: sources that are being seen from farther away than you

864
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 3: would imagine. They could be seen a lot of times,

865
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 3: they're like headlights from a highway. So, for example, there

866
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 3: is another train associated ghost light in northern Michigan known

867
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: as the Paulding Light. This is in the Upper Peninsula,

868
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 3: and I was reading about this. Apparently there was some

869
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 3: investigation into this light, and finally it turned out that

870
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 3: it's car headlights. It's car headlights just appearing in a

871
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: place where you wouldn't expect to see them.

872
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, growing up, there was some sort of ghost story

873
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 2: about a local train track light, and I never saw it.

874
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: I never sought it out. But I think you encounter

875
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 2: things like this in a lot of places. And there's

876
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 2: again some likely spillover between these stories and stories of

877
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: will of the Wisps and other strange lights in the night.

878
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 2: We've always had these stories. A lot of it comes

879
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 2: down to a mix of actual phenomena and just our

880
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: desire to dive into different stories and supernatural explanations of

881
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: what we've seen.

882
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 3: All right, Rob, if you don't mind, I want to

883
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: cap our discussion today with a little interesting little invention.

884
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 3: Note I came across semantically related to ghost trends. So

885
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 3: back in twenty seventeen, there were some press releases about

886
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 3: a new invention in development by an employee of Fermi Lab,

887
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,959
Speaker 3: and the invention was called the ghost train generator. Now,

888
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: for those not familiar, Fermi Lab is formally called the

889
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 3: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. It is a particle physics lab

890
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 3: high energy particle physics that's housed in Batavia, Illinois, which

891
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 3: operates under the US Department of Energy. One of my

892
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 3: main sources here is a Fermi Lab press release by

893
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 3: Daniel Garristo. So, what on earth would be the purpose

894
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 3: of something called a ghost train generator? Well, this takes

895
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 3: us back to the territory of railway obstructions and collisions, specifically,

896
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 3: what happens when a wheeled vehicle like a car or truck,

897
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 3: gets stuck while crossing railroad tracks and then is hit

898
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,479
Speaker 3: by a train. At the time of this Fermi Lab

899
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 3: press release, about seven years ago, the Federal Railroad Administration

900
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 3: stats revealed that this was happening hundreds of times a year,

901
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 3: which was shocking to me. I had no idea that

902
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 3: it was this common to have a collision between a

903
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 3: train and a wheeled vehicle. I went to check on

904
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 3: updated numbers and found that, at least according to preliminary

905
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 3: statistics from the Federal Railroad Administration, in twenty twenty three,

906
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 3: there were two one hundred and ninety two vehicle train

907
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 3: collisions at railroad crossings in the United States, and that

908
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 3: there were two hundred and forty seven fatalities and seven

909
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty six injuries. I found these stats reported

910
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 3: by the way on the website of a rail safety

911
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 3: organization called Operation Life Saver. So I don't know. To me,

912
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 3: that is just like way more vehicles and people getting

913
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: hit by trains at highway crossings than I would have guessed.

914
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 3: And despite what you might assume based on those numbers,

915
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 3: this is not a problem that has recently gotten worse.

916
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 3: The number of crossing accidents used to be astronomically higher

917
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: decades ago. According to that same safety org there were

918
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 3: something like twelve thousand of these incidents in nineteen seventy two,

919
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 3: and that's at a time when the US population was

920
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 3: only like two thirds of what it is now. So

921
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 3: now we're down to like twenty two hundred a year now,

922
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 3: so it's much better than it used to be. But

923
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 3: still at least that's just way more common than I

924
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 3: would have guessed.

925
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this always reminds me. There's a great Mystery

926
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 2: Science Theater three thousand short riffing on a nineteen fifty

927
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: nine educational short film from Union Specific Railroad titled Last

928
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 2: Clear Chance about the dangers of railway crossings, and it's

929
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 2: a fun riff. Off the top of my head, I

930
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 2: can't remember which movie this is attached to, if it

931
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 2: has the line and why don't they look? And I've

932
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: seen this short so many times over the years. But

933
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 2: it's also like, it's a really serious message, and I

934
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 2: feel like, even though there are lots of laughs watching

935
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: the riff version of it, the message still kind of

936
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: drives home for you and you realize, no, yeah, trains

937
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 2: are dangerous and that they're holy, blameless creatures as well

938
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: as they riff on it in the short. You know,

939
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 2: it's like, trains are dangerous, can be dangerous, especially if

940
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: you're not being careful around them and you're not listening,

941
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 2: you're not obeying like basic train related safety tips.

942
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's not the train's fault that these

943
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 3: collisions happen. The train cannot stop quickly it is not

944
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 3: able to you know, it might take it a mile

945
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 3: to stop. So yeah, you know those those safety the

946
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: bars come down and the lights go up. For a reason,

947
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 3: it is not worth it trying to get across the tracks,

948
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 3: as you know, before the train comes, you can wait

949
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 3: a few minutes.

950
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if you're dealing with a train that's moving

951
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 2: at a considerable speed. I think sometimes it's easy to

952
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 2: take this for granted if you're more familiar with trains

953
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 2: passing through urban settings, like you're in Atlanta, where by

954
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 2: the time the train is coming through town, it's usually

955
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 2: not going it may or at least it doesn't seem

956
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: to be going that fast. Now you can also get

957
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 2: into a serious discussion about how fast that train is

958
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 2: really going if it needs to stop suddenly because your

959
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 2: car is on the tracks when it shouldn't.

960
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 3: Be exactly, And of course it's quite clear that it

961
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 3: is dangerous for the vehicle in the train's path, but

962
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 3: in some cases it's not that common. But in some

963
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 3: cases it can even derail a train, so it's a

964
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 3: bad thing. Yeah, but I used to have this question.

965
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,879
Speaker 3: This is sort of a tangent, but this reading about

966
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 3: this answered this question for me. I used to have

967
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 3: this question, how does it happen at all that trucks

968
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 3: or buses get stuck on the railroad tracks? Because I

969
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 3: would see I would read about this, and I would think,

970
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 3: just like, what are the odds that your vehicle breaks

971
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 3: down or stalls out right there? Like how often could

972
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 3: that actually happen? But apparently there is at least one reason,

973
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 3: especially large vehicles get stuck on railroad tracks. And I

974
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 3: was thinking about it wrong. It's not usually that they

975
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 3: happen to like break down because of an engine malfunction

976
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 3: right there. Rather, it's that they bottom out. Railroad tracks

977
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 3: tend to be elevated for drainage reasons. You can imagine

978
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 3: the problem if you know, water were covering the rails,

979
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 3: so they tend to be raised up a little bit

980
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 3: so water drains away. And at intersections with highways, the

981
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 3: tracks often form a hump in the road. When a

982
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 3: vehicle with low ground clearance, like say a bus or

983
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 3: certain types of truck and trailer combinations, goes over the hump,

984
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 3: they can get hung up on the hump.

985
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 2: That makes sense. I had not thought about this before,

986
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: but yeah, and.

987
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 3: So obviously that's a big problem. Anyway, this brings us

988
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 3: back to the ghost train generator. So there is a

989
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 3: proposed solution to this problem. That was the idea of

990
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 3: a FERMI lab specialist named Derek Plant. Plant came up

991
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 3: with the idea of a device that could take advantage

992
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 3: of the railroad's automated signaling system by faking the presence

993
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 3: of another train on the tracks, Hence the ghost train generator,

994
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 3: and the way it works is this so. Modern railroads

995
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 3: are broken up into segments called signal blocks that have

996
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 3: stretches of tracks that are at least a mile long,

997
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 3: sometimes several miles, in which an electrical signaling system is

998
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 3: hooked up to each of the two separate rails. And

999
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 3: so when a train is present on the tracks within

1000
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 3: a signal block, the trains wheels and axles create a

1001
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 3: connection between the two rails, They complete the electrical circuit,

1002
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: and the signal block activates lights all down the line

1003
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 3: that indicate to oncoming trains there is a train on

1004
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 3: the block up ahead, maybe something is stalled out or

1005
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: behind schedule, and this gives the approaching train time to

1006
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 3: slow down and stop. The ghost train generator would be

1007
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 3: a small portable device that could be stored inside any

1008
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 3: truck or bus along with other emergency equipment, you know,

1009
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 3: like a fire extinguisher or jumper cables or whatever. And

1010
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 3: the device would be made from two magnets with a

1011
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 3: special conducting wire, so it would be equipment essentially to

1012
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 3: connect to the two rails. So if your vehicle gets

1013
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 3: stuck on the tracks, you would quickly get out and

1014
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 3: attach one magnet to one rail, the other magnet to

1015
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 3: the other rail, and the circuit is complete. So the

1016
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 3: signaling block thinks a phantom train is obstructing the line.

1017
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 3: This sends a signal up the path to any approaching train,

1018
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 3: so it has plenty of time to stop so that

1019
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 3: you can get your car out of the way. So

1020
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 3: the last I've seen of this is talk about a

1021
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 3: conference presentation and patent application from several years back now,

1022
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 3: so I don't know if this ever went into production anywhere.

1023
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 3: Maybe there was something that's not actually viable about it.

1024
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, or maybe they are out there. I

1025
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: don't know exactly where this idea went, but assuming it works,

1026
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 3: I think it's a really cool idea. I love the

1027
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 3: idea of summoning spectral trains to prevent destruction and potentially

1028
00:59:58,400 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 3: save lives.

1029
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: Maybe there was a religious objection to it just based

1030
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 2: on the title. It's like, we don't need more ghost trains,

1031
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: pass funded ghost trains on our rail systems, no, sir.

1032
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 3: You know, I think about how many horror stories there

1033
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 3: are where there's a ghost that at first is scary,

1034
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 3: but then the twist at the end. This is really common,

1035
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 3: I think, is that the ghost is actually trying to

1036
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 3: be helpful and warning or trying to help the protagonist

1037
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 3: against a really threatening human villain. And so I wonder

1038
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 3: could we get a story where there's a ghost train

1039
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 3: of that kind, Like it's scary at first, but the

1040
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 3: train is really just trying to help.

1041
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd be down for that.

1042
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 3: I don't know what information it would provide. It goes

1043
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 3: by somebody's yelling at you, like, don't go in.

1044
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 2: There, man. But seriously, I would love to hear from

1045
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 2: everyone out there if you have some great ghost train

1046
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 2: stories you want to share with us, be it something

1047
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: that's just completely fanciful or something that seems to connect

1048
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: with reality on some level or another. There was one

1049
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 2: that we were looking into a little bit, the Silver

1050
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 2: Train of Stockholm, that we didn't get into here. But

1051
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 2: I did find it interesting that one possible explanation for

1052
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 2: this one was that, well, there was like maybe like

1053
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 2: one silver colored train car that was being used that

1054
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 2: was like a prototype or something, and just stories began

1055
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 2: to generate about it because it stood out and it

1056
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 2: looked different, And yeah, I kind of I kind of

1057
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 2: like that. You know, as a as someone who you know,

1058
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 2: used to ride the train a lot to work and back,

1059
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 2: you were always on the on the lookout for different trains,

1060
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: and I would actually have recurring dreams about catching a

1061
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 2: different train that had like a different design to it.

1062
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 2: So there is something kind of attractive about that. You

1063
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: look for for something you know that stands out, and

1064
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 2: then I don't know, the mind or supernatural tendencies create

1065
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 2: the rest around it.

1066
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 3: Well, do we think does that do it for Trains

1067
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 3: of Terror?

1068
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 2: I believe it does. We're gonna go ahead and cap

1069
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 2: it here, but yes, right in, we'd love to hear

1070
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 2: from you, And if you were a fan of our

1071
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema episodes, tune in tomorrow because we'll be

1072
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 2: talking about the nineteen seventy two train based horror film

1073
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 2: Horror Express. That one should be a lot of fun

1074
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 2: as well.

1075
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 3: That movie has some twists. It's got some good ones.

1076
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 2: Yes, and some science. We'll have some things to say

1077
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 2: about the science of horror.

1078
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 3: Express extremely sound.

1079
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, just reminded. Stuff to Blow Your Mind

1080
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 2: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

1081
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, weird house cinemas on Fridays. That's

1082
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 2: when we set aside most serious concerns, would just talk

1083
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 2: about a weird film. Not all of our episodes are

1084
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: normally horror themed, but it is October, so we are

1085
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 2: leaning into the season.

1086
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 3: That's right. Huge, Thanks as always to our excellent audio

1087
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 3: producer JJ Posway. If you would like to get in

1088
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 3: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

1089
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 3: to suggest topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1090
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1091
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:13,919
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1092
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1093
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1094
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.