1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Many of us find 2 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: ourselves in positions throughout life where we use those things 3 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: that are at outer disposal. We use those items that 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: we have access to in order to complete a task. 5 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: Perhaps I guess that some people would call these tools 6 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: of convenience. I'm going to speak about something that we 7 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: refer to in forensics as weapons of convenience. Today, we're 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: going to talk about a man who, out of sheer, 9 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: anger and rage and maybe a healthy dose of suspicion, 10 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: attacks another man and ends this fellow's life with a 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: moose handler. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybags 12 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: Dave mac my buddy who's crime reporter for a crime online. 13 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: I don't know that I ever envisioned myself speaking about 14 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: a case involving a moose andler. When I saw the 15 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: story and I began to dig into it a little bit, 16 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: I was shaking my head, saying that I just read 17 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: this correctly. I'm kind of a frustrated historian, and I 18 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: love history. I love Native American history, and I love 19 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: learning about tools and things that were used. And I'm thinking, 20 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: who in the world would even have access to a 21 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: moose andler. And as I began to dig further and further, 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: this story just really captivated me, and I began to 23 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: think about instrumentalities of death, and boy, do we have 24 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: one today. 25 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: Usually when you are talking about a crime, boy you 26 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: don't want to say killing people is normal, but there 27 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: are normal aspects to a murder, things that we are 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: accustomed to hearing. Certain types of weaponry comes to mind. 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: But when you start mentioning a moose antler, when I 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: picture an antler, I think of a deer antler with 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: a hard bony tribe structure with points on the end, 32 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: and in that I could see how somebody might use 33 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: that antler as a weapon. But moose antlers aren't like that, 34 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 2: are they. 35 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: They're kind of flat, and they're dishlike in shape I 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: guess to a certain degree, or bowl like presentation and 37 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: kind of concave I guess, rolling outward. And they have 38 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,119 Speaker 1: prongs all along the edge, but they're not necessarily sharp prongs. 39 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: But you can look at this thing and tell that 40 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: if this animal that's arrayed with these things chooses to 41 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 1: do harm, they could do great harm. There's all kinds 42 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: of stories about how aggressive these animals are, particularly when 43 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: you've got a cow with a calf, they will spare 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: no one, and you hear that a lot in the 45 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: animal kingdom, But moose have that reputation as an animal 46 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: US don't want to cross paths with. They can be aggressive. 47 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: They're very territorial, and territory is interesting in this case 48 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: because it involves a geographic location. It's not in Canada. 49 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: It's in the United States, but buddy, you can almost 50 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: see Canada from there. The area where this case actually 51 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: occurs is within the range of the North American moose population. 52 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: We don't have them all over the place. You and 53 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: I arel Southern boys. If I saw something that big 54 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: with a set of antlers on it, I'd fall over 55 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: and die down. Here we see white tailed deer, that's 56 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: about the extent, and we see antlers laid on the 57 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: forest floor. If you go for a hike, you'll see them. 58 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: They're shedding. But I don't know what I would do 59 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: if I walked out into a forest and look down 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: the ground and see something that could be potentially if 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: you put them both together six feet in wit and 62 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: can weigh up to like thirty pounds, it's astounding to 63 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: me the size of these things. 64 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: That's just not the type of thing I would think 65 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: to convert into a weapon and of mayhem. So adding 66 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: that to the mix, we can actually back up a 67 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: little bit here, and the actual story centers around a 68 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: twenty seven year old dad and a seventy seven year 69 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: old retired guy. They have actually been butting heads for 70 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: quite some time. Levi Axtell is the twenty seven year 71 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: old dad, Lawrence V. Scully the seventy seven year old 72 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: and in this case the victim. Mister Scully in nineteen 73 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: seventy nine was convicted in Minnesota of sexually assaulting a 74 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: six year old girl. He was convicted, and he was 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: sentenced to prison, where he was there for a little 76 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: over two years. He was released from prison in nineteen 77 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: eighty two. Since that time, it appears that mister Scully 78 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: has lived a normal life, has not run a foulow 79 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: of the law that I can find. And I'm looking 80 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 2: for this, I'm not seeing anything. I'm seeing that mister 81 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: Scully ran for mayor in twenty fourteen. He lost. Than that, 82 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: we don't have much until twenty eighteen. In twenty eighteen, 83 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 2: mister Scully and mister Levi Axtell had their first encounter 84 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: legally speaking, mister Axtell. Again, this is five years ago. 85 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 2: Now Axtell's twenty two years old. Scully is seventy two 86 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: at the time, and mister Axtell had a reason to 87 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: seek out protection from mister Scully and he got it. Now, Joe, 88 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: you know what it takes to get in order of protection, right. 89 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: It's not something that you just simply walk in and 90 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: say I want one and they hand it down. They 91 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,679 Speaker 1: requires some demonstration to the court that there is a need. 92 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: And of course, since Scully had this prior conviction as 93 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: a sex offender, it's certainly going to catch the eye 94 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: of the court of citizen walks and it says, well, 95 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: this is my reasoning for it. And apparently according to 96 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: the perpetrator here, Levi Axtell, he opined that Scully was 97 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: stalking his daughter. Now I think at the time his 98 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: daughter was less than two years old, but she was 99 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: being taken to a daycare. His idea was that Scully 100 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: was sitting in his van outside of the daycare, watching 101 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: the comings and goings of small children. Dave, your dad, 102 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: I'm a dad. Do you remember what it was like 103 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: when you're particularly a new dad? You're hypersensitive to anything 104 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: in the environment. You're always looking for something that could 105 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: go sideways with the child, those things that you can 106 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: protect them from in the little environment that you created home. 107 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: But then you begin to think about all of these 108 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: things where you're taking your child and handing them off 109 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: to someone else to take care of, and your mind 110 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: can run wild with possibilities. 111 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: And apparently that's what actually happened. 112 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. If you're a registered sex offender, 113 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: those lists are very easy to get into public domain. 114 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: I don't know that this happened, but I would imagine 115 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: this new father probably did a little digging and look 116 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: what he came up with. 117 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: He made a claim in twenty eighteen. Mister Axtell claimed 118 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: that mister Scully sitting in a van outside of the 119 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: daycare and as you mentioned, under two years old. She 120 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: was a little over a year old at the time. 121 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: Toddler being taken to a daycare, and mister Axtell said 122 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: Scully was sitting there in his van and he called 123 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: it stalking, He called it attempting to groom his toddler. 124 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: My wife goes online and finds out predators living in 125 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: our area. You can pull them up now and see 126 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: which sex offenders, registered sex offenders are in your neighborhood. 127 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: And I encourage everybody to go look. 128 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: I would never discourage anybody from doing that. The police 129 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: can't be with you twenty four to seven. You have 130 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: to be your own proponent here where you're going to 131 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: go out and you're going to actively see who's in 132 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,679 Speaker 1: your area. And it can be done by zip code. 133 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: I've done this. When I'm about to buy a house, 134 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: I'll look up the zip code and I'll see, well, 135 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: who's living near me. I'm not gonna put the money 136 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: on the barrelhead here if I've got somebody that's a 137 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: registered sex offender living next door. 138 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: That is probably what happened. Because of the fact that 139 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: mister Axtell actually claimed he believed that Scully was grooming 140 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: his toddler, he was granted a protection order, and that 141 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: order of protection, as you mentioned, not easy to get. 142 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: He did get it. But the part that we don't 143 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: know is while Axtell got the order of protection from Scully, 144 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: it was granted and then dismissed. Weeks later it was dismissed, 145 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: So I don't know what transpired. I don't know what 146 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: it takes to get one dismissed, but it was so 147 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: that's where we said. A couple of years after that, 148 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: we have mister Axtell posting online that he actually said, quote, 149 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: the only cure for pedophiles is a bullet. He posted 150 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: this on his Facebook page. Okay, so you have a 151 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: convicted sex offender in a seventy seven year old mister Scully. 152 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: We have a twenty seven year old dad with a 153 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: six year old daughter, and we have a dad who 154 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: is very territorial and protect of his daughter, as I 155 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: believe most dads are. I think mister Axtell took it 156 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: one step at a time and kept going further and 157 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: further and further, and maybe worked himself into a bit 158 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: of a frenzy. Not saying he's right or wrong in 159 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: terms of what his thinking was. I don't know what 160 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: he was thinking, Joe. 161 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: I don't either, And obviously his own perception was that 162 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: there was a threat. Now, how he acts out on 163 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: that threat, that's going to be between him and the courts. 164 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, we'll find out more 165 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: about that his idea, at least in his mind, that 166 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: there was in fact a threat. He's obviously been watching 167 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: this guy for some time, Dave, you said this started 168 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: all the way back in twenty eighteen, it's five years 169 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: after the fact. Now his daughter at this point in time, 170 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: she's several years older, obviously, And the idea that initially 171 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: he's using the term stalking and grooming for a twenty 172 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: two month old child, I don't know how that is 173 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: necessarily possible, because that's something that with most investigations, if 174 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: they're going to be kind of tracking an individual and 175 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: watching their behavior, most of the time requires some kind 176 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: of one on one contact or the targeted individual where 177 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: the child can't imagine that back then there was evidence 178 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: of that going on. Now, if he's taking the place out, 179 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: if he's taking out the daycare, he's parking out there 180 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: we mentioned early on, if you're going to get this 181 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: protective order, it really makes me wonder did he do 182 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: any kind of videography back then? Did he take still 183 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: images of this guy's van parked out in front of 184 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: the day care? Did he capture the license plate in 185 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: the foreground with the daycare in the background. Now I 186 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: could see that potentially being compelling to the court, particularly 187 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: given Scullies prior history, but it's going to be very 188 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: difficult to get that without some kind of substance of evidence, 189 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: and the fact that they pulled it so quickly. I 190 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: can see how that would lead to a level of 191 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: frustration that somebody already has kind of this heightened alert 192 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: going on with them. 193 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 2: I'm glad you pointed that out, because this is five 194 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: years ago. Scully is seventy two. Mister Axtell is twenty 195 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: two at the time. Remember when you were twenty two, 196 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: Sometimes that fuse was a little bit shorter than it 197 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 2: needed to be. Scully is the convicted pedophile. He served 198 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: time in prison for sexually abusing a six year old 199 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: child in nineteen seventy nine. Now flash forward is twenty eighteen, 200 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 2: and mister Axtell actually goes to court and files paperwork 201 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 2: to get an order of protection because he has seen 202 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: mister Scully sitting in his van near the daycare. And 203 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: according to the paperwork that Axtell filed to get the 204 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: order of protection, he said, quote, he has been there 205 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: many times stalking children in his van. He is a 206 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: convicted pedophile, and him stalking and attempting to groom my 207 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: daughter is completely inappropriate and needs to stop. 208 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: Now. 209 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: The order of protection was granted for several weeks, but 210 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: it was dismissed. That's where we are then, Joe. Just 211 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 2: so you know, there were a few other complaints about 212 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: mister Scully during this time period, and it's important to 213 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: note that no action was taken other than this very 214 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: short term protection order. 215 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: That's important, particularly if you have a history that's ongoing, 216 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: and if there are other events that are attached to 217 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: this individual that are outside of mister Axtell's actions, that 218 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: could be rather probative. If the court is being asked 219 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: to issue this order of protection for this child, and 220 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: then there's other people that are saying things, or there's 221 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: other instances, somebody might take a closer look at this 222 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: as the investigation continues. 223 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: Well, the sheriff actually said that there were other allegations 224 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: that Scully faced during the years, but an investigation didn't 225 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: reveal anything, and he said most of the claims were 226 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: about harassment and trespassing at the gas station where acts 227 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 2: still worked. You pointed out they had an ongoing situation here, 228 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: So again Levi Axtell at twenty seven, Laurence Scully at 229 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: seventy seven. Scully, the convicted pedophile, ac still the dad. 230 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: When you look over the accusations that axtual leveled. He 231 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: was trying to do something. He was trying to get 232 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: this man backed off in some way. Axtell actually, in 233 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen got in trouble with the law. Axtell actually 234 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: was charged with and convicted of doing something to a 235 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 2: pastor's vehicle. Did you know about that? 236 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: No? I didn't. I didn't know about that. 237 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 2: I'm looking at the years here, and I'm looking at 238 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen where Axtell has a young daughter. He is 239 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: watching this convicted pedophile, He's making accusations with the proper authorities, 240 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 2: and meanwhile he actually is also getting in trouble himself. 241 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: He was actually not living a laid back life, I 242 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 2: guess is the one way to say it. We have 243 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 2: a little girl here, we have a dad, and we 244 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: have the convicted pedophile. So how do we take all 245 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: of this Joe Scott Morgan and end up with a 246 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: headline that screams dad confesses to killing a man with 247 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 2: a moose ANTL. 248 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: I know this with such a level of violence in 249 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: a blood covered confession, this is something that's going to 250 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: have to be explored a bit further. So I'm just 251 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: kind of imagining this scenario in my mind, and the 252 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: thought that is coming to me is being a young 253 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: uniformed officer. Maybe you're on death duty, maybe the shift 254 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: is coming to a close. Maybe you've just had one 255 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: of those days where you just had more than you 256 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: can stand as a police officer. And trust me, police 257 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: officers have a lot of those days. And all of 258 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: a sudden you look up and what comes into your 259 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: field of vision. You've got a young man covered covered 260 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: in blood. He drops to his knee in front of you, 261 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: interlocks or interlaces his fingers behind his head, looks up 262 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: and states, I have just killed somebody. I don't know 263 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: what my reaction would be, Dave. How about you, man? 264 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: I know that you have worked around law enforcement. You 265 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: have talked with plenty of investigators, detectives, sheriff's deputies. You've 266 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: talked to everybody, and you know how criminal investigations are done. Oftentimes, 267 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: a crime is reported to be a nine to one one, 268 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: and a nine to one one call came in that 269 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: a man had driven a minivan into the victim. Here, 270 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: mister Scully is an elderly man, he's seventy seven years old, 271 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: and his neighbor sees a man in a minivan comes 272 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: screaming into the driveway, getting out of his minivan and 273 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: running in the house. She calls nine one one because 274 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: the guy smashes a vehicle or her elderly neighbor's driveway, 275 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: but she immediately hears screaming coming from inside that house. 276 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: Screaming is so loud that I think on the nine 277 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: to one one call, the authorities could actually hear something 278 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 2: going on in the background. That's what happened right before 279 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: mister Axtell drove the three blocks from Scully's house to 280 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: the police station where by the way, and I wanted 281 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: to ask you about this, Joe Scott Morgan, You've been 282 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: around law enforcement for your adult life. When a man 283 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: comes in and he's got blood all over him, and 284 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: he gets on his knees at the police stage and 285 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: interlaces his hands above his head like he's doing an 286 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: episode of Cops and police are there trying to find 287 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: out what happened, and he reeks of alcohol. Do they 288 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: immediately assume everything he's going to say is the absolute 289 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: positive truth regardless of what he says. 290 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: No, they don't. You have to treat everything with a 291 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: level of skepticism. And the way the police would handle 292 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: this initially, I think is that if you see what 293 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: appears to be blood, and no matter what they are 294 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: saying at that time, they still have to assess this 295 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: guy for an injury because you're thinking, is he out 296 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: of his mind? Has he injured himself? You're thinking about safety. 297 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: You're thinking about this guy's safety, he's a citizen. You're 298 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: thinking about the safety of everyone else. So once he 299 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: has been restrained, you're going to start. If you're the 300 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: police officer, hopefully you're putting on your gloves right and 301 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: you're getting this guy into a position, whether it's laying 302 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: face down on the ground, whether it's standing him up 303 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: so that you can do a full visual assessment, and 304 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: they'll go from the top of his head to his feet. 305 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: The police will run their hands through his hair to 306 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: see if they can source the blood. If they pull 307 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: it out and he's got free flowing blood coming out 308 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: of his scalp somewhere, they're going to look at the 309 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: back of his head, his neck, his chest, They'll look everywhere. 310 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: They'll lift his shirt up, they'll look to see if 311 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: this guy has any injuries. Let's just suppose that he 312 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: is telling the truth and he's murdered someone, that's all 313 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: fine and good. But if he's injured, and he's injured 314 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: bleeding out, you're not going to be able to get 315 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: a statement from this guy. You're going to lose a 316 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: primary source of evidence, at least at the circumstantial evidence 317 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: where he's making a statement, and it's exculpatory at that 318 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: point in time, and you can find things out from 319 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: this guy. So you want to ensure his safety from 320 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: the beginning and just make sure that he's not injured 321 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: to the point where he is going to die, because 322 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: if you got blood on you, you've got to have a 323 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: source for it. Once they've established that this guy is 324 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: not injured, a right thinking person would look at him 325 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 1: and say, who okay, we've got that checked off. Now, 326 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: if he ain't bleeding, where's all this blood coming from? 327 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: Does this marry up with the story? Well? I can 328 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: tell you this that nine to one one call, whoever 329 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: rolled out on that call is probably radioing in at 330 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: almost the same time as this guy is standing in 331 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: the lobby. Can you imagine this standing in the lobby 332 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: covered in blood? You got a guy out there at 333 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: the scene, and I can just imagine this conversation. Police 334 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: go over to their own band. You hear the repeater 335 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: kick on when they're talking to headquarters. But cops have 336 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 1: the ability to flip over to another channel that you 337 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: can't listen in on, and they can talk directly to 338 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: one another over this channel. They'll say, go to direct 339 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: and within this distance, this is almost like a line 340 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,239 Speaker 1: of sight broadcasting. If you're only merely blocks away, this 341 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: is an easy conversation to have. So you're telling me, 342 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: Jim that you've got a guy there at the station 343 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 1: house that's saying he murdered a guy here at this 344 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: address and he's covered in blood. Okay, I've got a 345 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: few answers for you out here. They're marrying this information 346 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: up at this point in time. So once you've established that, hey, 347 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: this guy is probably telling the truth, this person who 348 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: has just made this confession becomes arguably one of the 349 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: biggest pieces of evidence you have. And I'm talking about 350 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: his physical person. He has to be secured. All of 351 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: the clothing he's wearing has to be secured. You cannot 352 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: allow him to wash his hands, you cannot allow him 353 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: to wash his face, because once you get him secured, 354 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: you're going to take him into a back room, and 355 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: you're going to not ask him questions because at that 356 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: point time if you start other than are you okay? 357 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: Once you start to ask questions of an individual, all right, 358 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: even if they're admitting something, they have to be mirandized 359 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: more than likely, and you don't want to hamper the 360 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: free flow of information. Okay, Now, you can ask them 361 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: generalized questions. But if you start to get in the police, 362 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: start to get into kind of probative questions and he 363 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: hasn't been mirandized, that can create a problem. You say, so, 364 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: you're telling me that you've murdered this guy. Okay, all right, 365 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: that's what you're saying. Now, if you take a step 366 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: beyond and say, well, how exactly did you go about 367 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: murdering him? If he has not been mirandized, and he 368 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 1: gets an attorney in there, then that can be a 369 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: problem because he hasn't been made aware of his rights, 370 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: and people don't think about that sort of thing many times. 371 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up, Joe, because that actually 372 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: comes into play here. One thing that seemed to really 373 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 2: frustrate actual Well, first of all, he was intoxicated, okay, 374 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: covered in blood. He goes in, gets on his knees, 375 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: puts his hands on his head, and he is demanding 376 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: that they handcuff him because he will hurt someone else 377 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: what he's telling them, And I'm thinking, wait a minute, 378 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 2: he expected you to go in, make his admission, to 379 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: cuff him and take him off, but that didn't happen 380 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: because the police is trying to ascertain what's going on, 381 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 2: what is actually transpiring here, and they're not going quick enough. 382 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: That's why axtell says, look, either you handcuff me or 383 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 2: I'm hurting somebody else. And it's because of what you 384 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: just explained. 385 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: And is he in such a heightened state at this 386 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: point in time. He's highly agitated coming from what turns 387 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: out to be a horrific scene. He's witnessed this, He's participated, 388 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: by his own admission, in this. He's probably wanting to 389 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: keep the demons at bay at this point in time, because, 390 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: first off, you had mentioned that he's inebriated. We don't 391 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: know at what level something else that can be explored 392 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: by the police. At that point in time, they will 393 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: probably want to get a medical assessment on him. I 394 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: don't know that the police would have been even more shocked. 395 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: If an alien had landed on Earth and walked in, 396 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: that's how bizarre this is. This is a very Hollywood moment. 397 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you and I had talked 398 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: about this off air. It's like he had just watched 399 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: the movie Seven. Spoiler alert. I've always wanted to say 400 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,239 Speaker 1: that on air. I've never had an opportunity to say that. 401 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: But if you've never seen Seven, one of the big 402 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: scenes in this movie is where Kevin Spacey walks in 403 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: to the police station. He kneels down on the floor 404 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: in this police station, interlaces his fingers behind his head, 405 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: and demands that he be taken into custody. It admits 406 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: at that moment time that he's committed all of these 407 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: heinous crimes. It's almost like this guy had that awareness, 408 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: because it seemed like it duplicates that scene in that movie. 409 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: I wonder if they'll come up with that as a defense. 410 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: One thing you got here, Joe is the weapon he used, 411 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: not just the moose andlers, but he actually used a shovel, 412 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: And according to him, he pulls into the driveway and 413 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: just grabs the shovel. He didn't show up with a 414 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: shovel as his preferred choice of weapon. He picked it 415 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: up off the deck as he was on his way in. 416 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: That's an excellent point because perhaps if you are of 417 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: a mind here and you're trying to do this guy, 418 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: you're going to grab onto any scrap that you can, 419 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: right Dave. And so in this case, the attorney would say, well, 420 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: this is demonstrative of the fact that my client is 421 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: just in a heightened state of rage here. He's being 422 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: fueled by anger, he's being fueled by alcohol. He's frustrated 423 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: with the police and the courts because they won't do anything. 424 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: He didn't know what he was going to do when 425 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: he showed up there. To demonstrate that, he didn't even 426 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: show up with a weapon. He grabbed a shovel off 427 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: of the front porch that was laying there at his feet. 428 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: And this course becomes what I'd refer to earlier, and 429 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: we talked about this in forensics a lot. It's called 430 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: a weapon of convenience. Now you see this a lot 431 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: in domestic battery cases, where people will get into a 432 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: fit of rage and they grab the closest thing they can, 433 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: not considering necessarily the utility of it. It's one thing 434 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: if you grab a baseball bat, because you can think 435 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: about the use of it. It has a handle, it's 436 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: meant for swinging. It's weighted at one end as opposed 437 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: to know, a lamp. You got a lamp shade. Yeah, 438 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: you could do damage with it, but it's not the 439 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: same as swinging a baseball bat. Well, who knew that 440 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: there would be a shovel on the front porch? He 441 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 1: shows up, he grabs a shovel. It's obviously highly effective, 442 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily the best type of weapon that 443 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: you could utilize to bring about somebody's death. 444 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: And that's exactly what he did. That's where the moose 445 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: andlers come in. He uses a shovel. The neighbor on 446 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: the nine one one call. Here's the screaming. And by 447 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 2: the way, we do know that seventy seven year old 448 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 2: Lawrence Scully didn't just sit there and take it. He 449 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: did have defensive wounds on his arms. He was trying 450 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: to stop the blows from the shovel, which, again I'm 451 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 2: thinking using a shovel as a weapon, You've got a 452 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: couple of different things. You've got the actual shovel head 453 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 2: that you could use to batter somebody with. You've also 454 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 2: got the sharp end of it, the metal laid part 455 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: that could be used almost as a cutting device, licing 456 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: with that one. And I'm wondering, when you have done 457 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 2: this your whole life, have you you ever seen somebody 458 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 2: use garden equipment as a tool, I mean as a 459 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: weapon rather. 460 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have. There's a reason I'm an old soldier. 461 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that we were taught early on. 462 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: If it ever comes down to it, you can use 463 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: what we refer to as an E tool as a weapon. 464 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: And the E tool is essentially the little shovels that 465 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: you carry in your backpack. You carry an E tool 466 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: that's attached to your backpack and it can be used 467 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: not only to dig holes with which unfortunately I dug 468 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: more than my share, but it's also got a bladed in. 469 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: But the difference with a military E tool is that 470 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: it's small. It's much smaller than what you would think, say, 471 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: for instance, a garden spade or even a big construction 472 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: style shovel is. And you don't really know the shape 473 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: of the shovel. Is it a spade shape shovel or 474 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: is it one of these kind of big flat shovels 475 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: that you would see somebody hefting gravel with for instance. 476 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: I do know this the injuries that Scully sustain are 477 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: going to be some of the most complicated that we've 478 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: ever discussed on body backs. Many times, when you're trying 479 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 1: to assess injuries in the medical legal world, if you 480 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: have a forensic pathologist that has a body on a table, 481 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: or maybe you're the EMMY investigator that's out at the scene, 482 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: trying to make sense of this bloody mess that you 483 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: have in front of you, it can be rather daunting task. 484 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: And in this particular case, what we're going to be 485 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: looking at is a combination I think at least of 486 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: both potentially sharp force injuries as well as blunt force injuries. 487 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: I think we're going to have to break that down 488 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: for him, Dave. 489 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: There are so many different things happening here in this 490 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: instance that I don't know how you, as a forensic 491 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: person go into trying to figure out what happened. Because 492 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: there's going to be blood everywhere. You're going to have 493 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: defensive injuries, You're going to have a big mess. I'm 494 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 2: assuming you're going to have puddles of blood. You're going 495 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: to have splatter all over the place, probably on the 496 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 2: ceiling and the walls. When you get to the scene, 497 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 2: what are you going to do to divide and conquer 498 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 2: the situation to figure out what happened. 499 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: One of my big heroes in forensics of all time 500 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: is a guy named doctor Thomas Nogucci. And for those 501 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: that don't know doctor Tom, he was the chief medical 502 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: examiner slash corner for La County. He's referred to by 503 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: many as the corner to the stars, and doctor Nogucci 504 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: stated that he had a problem when he first started 505 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: working going out to scenes involving these horrific cases. And 506 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: keep in mind he's the guy that actually did the 507 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: autopsies in but the Tate and the Lobbyanca cases out 508 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: in La he also did John Beluci and Marilyn Monroe. 509 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: I mean, you name it. He was an involved in 510 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: these cases. But one of the things that doctor Noguchi 511 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: wrote about in one of his books, which I highly 512 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: recommend to anyone if you want a not so technical 513 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: view of the world that we inhabit, that he had 514 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: a problem when he would walk into the scene of 515 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: focusing only on the bodies. This guy was so bright 516 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: in such a simple way, he actively determined that when 517 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: he would approach any scene, the first place he would 518 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: always look was up. And I was always fascinated by 519 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: that because he became so distracted by simply focusing on 520 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: the bodies. He would be told that the bodies are 521 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: in so and so room, that they're in this location. 522 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: Can you imagine walking into that Tate crime scene after 523 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: the Manson family had done their devilish work there, and 524 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: how brutalized these bodies were, and how distracting that is 525 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: as a death investigator, and you forget about everything else. 526 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: And I'm glad that you mentioned this, because yeah, that 527 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: environment would have been covered in Bloe, but it's Scully's home. 528 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: So using doctor Nogucci's premise, here, you look up, You're 529 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: going to look for any kind of dynamic cast off 530 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: that might have come from a weapon. You're going to 531 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: look to the sides, at the walls, maybe the adjacent furniture, 532 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: and then finally you make your way to the body. 533 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: The bodies aren't going anywhere, or the body in this 534 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: case is not going anywhere. It's going to be there. 535 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: You're not just simply focused on the body. And I 536 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: think that this is key. I try to teach my 537 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: students at Jacksonville state the same thing. Don't just merely 538 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: focus on the bodies, because as humans, our eyes are 539 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: drawn to the body, and the worse it is, the 540 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: more mesmerized you seemingly become because of the level of 541 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: trauma and gore that you're seeing in front of you, 542 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: and it's really easy to get distracted. And of course 543 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: we all know it's like driving a car, right. The 544 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: more distracted you are, the higher the probability is that 545 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: you're going to make a mistake or something's going to 546 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,239 Speaker 1: go wrong. So you take the scene in total, and 547 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: of course, in this particular case, we've already got an 548 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,239 Speaker 1: alleged perpetrat that has walked into a station house and 549 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: he is covered with blood. You can only imagine the 550 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: surrounding area around Scully's body is going to be probably 551 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: super saturated with blood. It's going to be all over 552 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: the place. It's going to be all over the victim. 553 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: There will probably be blood that is off in just 554 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: the periphery in the immediate area where you might have 555 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: it pool as a result of him bleeding out. This 556 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: is a dynamic event, so you're going to have the 557 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: alleged perpetrator stepping in blood that's issuing out of the body, 558 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: so you might have bloody transfer footprints that are all 559 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: over the place. You're going to have passive blood that's 560 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: dripping off of any kind of instrument that's being used. 561 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: So if you think about just standing there with a 562 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: paint brush in your hand that's saturated with paint, paint 563 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: would drip off the tip of it. It's the same 564 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: way with an instrument, whether it be a knife or 565 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: a shovel or a moose antler, it's just going to 566 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: drip there. And that's kind of that passive drip, and 567 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: then you have this dynamic distribution of blood that's all 568 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: over the place as well, where it's cast off onto 569 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: the ceiling and the walls, and famously, there's been a 570 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: number of cases where perpetrators have actually cast off blood 571 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 1: onto themselves. If you can imagine that, where they're drawing 572 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: the thing back so vigorously, these diagonal kind of presentations 573 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: on their back, where they're drawing it back over the 574 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: top of their head and the blood deposits diagonally across 575 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: the back of their shirt. It's quite an amazing thing. 576 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: So it's very easy to get distracted in a case 577 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: like this, by our nature, we're drawn to the body. 578 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 1: We want to try to make sense of it, but 579 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: we have to take everything into consideration for us. 580 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: All right, Jo Scott, here's the actual question I want 581 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 2: to roll out for you, because what we have so 582 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: far is we've got a man in a police station, 583 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 2: hands above his head, covered in blood, screaming for police 584 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: to arrest him right now or he's going to hurt 585 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 2: other people, and admits that he has used a shovel 586 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: and antlers moose antlers to kill a man. And my 587 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 2: bigger question is they're both odd things to use as 588 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: a weapon, either one. But for real, when you go 589 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: in to start your investigation, and as you mentioned, you 590 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 2: were talking about looking all around and you see the 591 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: blood everywhere, but now you've got injuries to look at. 592 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: How are you going to be able to tell the 593 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: difference between a flat back of a shovel and an antler, 594 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: or the sharp edge of the shovel and an antler. 595 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: Or what if he used the wood handle of the 596 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 2: shovel and hit him with that or poked him with that. 597 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: How will you, as the forensic guy, separate these wounds. 598 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: It's very tough. First off, I got to tell you 599 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: it's not something that we would make that total assessment 600 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: at the scene. It's impossible, and you're going to wreck 601 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: your case if you do that. That's why bodies need 602 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: to go to a morgue. They need to go to 603 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: an autopsy station. For folks that have never been into 604 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: an autopsy room, it's lit much like a surgical theater. 605 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: You've got these very brilliant lights that kind of blast 606 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: away any shadows that might be indwelling there, and so 607 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: that's the first thing you want to do, eradicate all 608 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: the shadows, and then you're going to have to clean 609 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: the body up. But of course we'll document it with 610 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: photography first in its untouched state. So you photograph at 611 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: the scene, you photograph at the morgue, and you photograph 612 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: before and after images essentially, because these injuries are going 613 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: to be so over the top day, they're going to 614 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: be what we refer to as communicating injuries. This is 615 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: what you're dealing with if you just take the shovel alone. 616 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: And I have had people that have been killed with shovels. 617 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: I remember a fellow right off the top of my 618 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: head that was beaten to death with a shovel and 619 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: the injuries were all about his head and face, and 620 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: that the leading sharp edge on the shovel was not 621 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: used in this case. I have had another one though, 622 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: where an individual was essentially chopped with a shovel. Those 623 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: injuries look completely different because the chopping injuries with the 624 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: leading edge that blade, well, it could look like an axe, 625 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: it could look like a meat cleaver, could look like 626 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: a hatchet, and so those are going to be closer 627 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: to sharp force injuries. Let me kind of give folks 628 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: at home an idea of what this looks like. If 629 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: you have someone that is beaten, those injuries that arise 630 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: from that are going to be what are referred to 631 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: as lacerations. These are going to be jagged, irregular style injuries. 632 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: And if folks at home will take their fingers and 633 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: interlace them and then just kind of gently pull them apart, 634 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: that's what we refer to when we look for something 635 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: called tissue bridging, and that's how we delineate between blunt 636 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: force and sharp force. So with blunt force, you'll have 637 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 1: these little strands of tissue that still connect to either 638 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: side of the injury. But if you have a sharp 639 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: force injury, the edges are going to be very clean. 640 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: The margins will be very clean because you've got a 641 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: milled edge that's cutting through that tissue. That's kind of 642 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: how we delineate. Also, with lacerations, you're going to have 643 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: contosed areas because this is an impact area. It's not 644 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: just the area where the skin tears, because that's what 645 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: a laceration is, the skin is kind of ripping into. 646 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: You'll have associated bruising or contusion around that area, more 647 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: so than you will with an edged weapon. Now, the handle, 648 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: you'd mentioned that if someone is being beaten with the 649 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: handle itself and you've got this weighted shovel head on it, 650 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: and the shovel head doesn't even have to make contact 651 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: with the body, you're going to get these linear contusions 652 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: which are quite striking, and you can kind of make 653 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: those out dependent upon where the body is hit. But 654 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: now you know how I said that, you've got communicating injuries. 655 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: The story is that the perpetrator ledge perpetrator here had 656 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: beaten him twenty plus times with the shovel and they 657 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: say beaten. We don't know if it's actually beaten, or 658 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: these are chop injuries, or if he was impaled in 659 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: some way, we don't really know. We don't know what 660 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: the condition of the shovel is. But then quote unquote, 661 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: according to the sheriff, he picks up a moose antler. 662 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: One has to assume the moose antlers just laying in 663 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: the house. I don't know. Maybe it's a decorative item. 664 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: These things, as I stated early on, they can weigh 665 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: up to thirty pounds day. The Native American use these 666 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: as tools as like war clubs, so it's nothing to 667 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: sneeze at. 668 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 2: I'm picturing this in my head, Joe, and I'm thinking, Okay, 669 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 2: the shovel, I get. The guy has lost his cookies. 670 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 2: He comes slamming in the driveway, he's running in the house. 671 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 2: He's going to do some major damage to this man. 672 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 2: He's just reached his point of no return. He's alcoholed 673 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 2: up and he's going in. So I get the shovel. 674 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: But what drives a man to look and say I 675 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: need to finish this guy off and the shovel just 676 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: won't do. That's not something I see as a weapon. 677 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: I've envisioned the thing sitting on a coffee table and 678 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: you use it as a bowl to put your car 679 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: keys in or something. I don't live in that north 680 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: country up there. People in this region are very used 681 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: to seeing I would assume moose heads on the wall 682 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing in a local watering hole 683 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: or someplace that they go to a family's house that 684 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: likes to hunt moose. They've seen the antlers. Maybe they 685 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: understand the utility of the antlers. Maybe they've held an 686 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: antler before and they say, wow, this is real. It's 687 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: weighted in a very particular way, so it requires, I think, 688 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: some familiarity with it. Because he didn't go out. It 689 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: doesn't say that he picked up a pair of shoes 690 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: and began to beat him to death with it, or 691 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: that he even picked up a fire poker and started swinging. 692 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: He picked up a moose antler, and the moose's antler 693 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: is designed in a very peculiar weight. I said early 694 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: on that moose can hear really well. 695 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 2: Well. 696 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: These things are dish shaped, almost like an odd shaped 697 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: satellite dish that they have on either side of their head. 698 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: They shed them periodically, they grow back. I think in 699 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: the fifth year of the moose's life. They're the biggest 700 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: that they'll ever reach. These things are conductors for sound 701 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: as well, and I would assume that when you picked 702 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: them up, there's a perceptible weight and maybe a balance 703 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: to it. Maybe the alleged perpetrator picked some up in 704 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: the past and said, wow, you know, this might be 705 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: something you could use as a weapon, and you know, 706 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: he grabs a shovel. Maybe the guy is not dead 707 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: yet and he says, well, I'm tired of swinging as 708 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: a long handled shovel. Let me find something that's a 709 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: bit more compact. You remember when I was talking about 710 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: the E tool earlier that you're issued in the military. 711 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: It's more compact than a regular shovel. You can perhaps 712 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: get a bit more leverage with it to direct that 713 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: energy onto the body. And of course there lies a 714 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: moose antler. Now, I think for me is someone that's 715 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: never had any kind of experience whatsoever examining this kind 716 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: of insult to a body, I'd be intrigued as to 717 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: what these injuries look like, because they're going to look 718 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: different than any other kind of blunt for its impact. 719 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: The edges of the antlers also have They're not sharp, 720 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: but they have these little ridges along the area and 721 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: a couple of these images I've seen some of them 722 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: look like gigantic saw teeth, and then they'll expand to 723 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: what looks like almost the diameter of a branch of 724 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: a tree, but they're smooth and rounded on the top. 725 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: So what kind of injury could you expect? You have 726 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: to imagine that the edge of the antler is actually 727 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: what is going to be the contact surface. You're not 728 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: going to hit them with the bowl like structure. You're 729 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: going to hit that individual so that they're being impacted 730 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: by that edge with those little knobs along the ridge, 731 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: and that in and of itself is going to generate 732 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: a very particular type of injury. Jo. 733 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 2: I had to ask you this because I'm kind of 734 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 2: curious as to how the whole thing comes into play. 735 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 2: We have a neighbor that actually sees actual his minivan 736 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 2: screeching into the driveway and sees him getting out and 737 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 2: running inside, obviously grabbing a shovel off the deck as 738 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 2: he goes inside. She then, while on the phone with 739 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 2: nine to one one here screaming, and while still on 740 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 2: the phone with nine to one one, sees actually leave 741 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 2: the house, get back in his car and start the 742 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 2: three block drive to the police station. So all of 743 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 2: this takes place in a very very short period of time. 744 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 2: Will that have any impact on the way police or 745 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 2: forensic people come in and address the scene. The speed 746 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: with which this horrific terror took place. 747 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: There's many times that you will hear, particularly behaviorists that 748 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: look at they'll use terms like frenzied. It's a frenzied attack. 749 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: And I think that when you go to kind of 750 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: describe the scene and trust me, my friend, it's going 751 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: to be chaotic. It'll be chaotic in that environment. The movement. 752 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: You hear this guy screaming. By virtue of him screaming, 753 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: he has an awareness that he's being attacked. You said 754 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: earlier that there was evidence of defensive injury, so he 755 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: knows that this individual is coming after him. He would 756 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,479 Speaker 1: raise his arm and can you imagine being impacted by 757 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: a shovel on your arm. His arm very well might 758 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: be sliced open with one of the edges of the shovel. 759 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: He's going to have an awareness that he is being attacked, 760 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: and of course it ends up in his death. So 761 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: there's a movement here. There's a dynamic environment that's going on. 762 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: I would imagine that you're going to have maybe broken furniture, 763 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: certainly upturned furniture dependent upon how much is in there. 764 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: If you've got trinkets on shelves, pictures on the wall, 765 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, a lot of that stuff you're 766 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,399 Speaker 1: swinging next time you got to your shed, grab hold 767 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: of your shovel and just consider for a second and 768 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: see how unmanageable this thing is. If you're trying to 769 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: use it as a weapon, you'd have to kind of 770 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: choke up on it like a baseball bat in order 771 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: to facilitate, and then it's going to impede your ability 772 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: to utilize it because you get the rest of the handle. 773 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 1: It's not the most efficient weapon. And you could see 774 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 1: how he may have gotten frustrated along the way, and 775 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: so that compelled him to ultimately pick up this moose 776 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: antler that just happened to be laid in there and 777 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: finally finished Scully off. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 778 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: is body bags.