1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I'm Akshatarati. This week we hear from you. 2 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: A few weeks ago we put out a call to 3 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: our listeners for questions. Thank you to everyone who'll sent 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: them in. We've got a great response, and in this 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: episode we will try to answer as many of them 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: as we can. To help me do that, we've got 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Senior Africa reporter Yinka Ibukun and Zero's producer Oscar Boyd. 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Zero, Yinka and Oscar. 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 3: Thank you. 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 4: So. 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: Our first question comes from beat Koch from Switzerland, and 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: he asks, I. 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 4: Was wondering if in the end the tariff politics of 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 4: Donald Trump might help the environment and reduce CO two emissions. 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 4: If international trade falls significantly, CO two emissions will go down, 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 4: which is what we want and need most at the moment. 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: So akshat Donald Trump has started at tariff, is he 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: also a climate warrior in disguise? 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: Well, wouldn't that be nice? I mean the implication here 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: is that less trade will mean less goods are shipped 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: around the world, and thus there will be fewer CO 23 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: two emissions because a lot of shipping fuel is really 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: bad bunker fuel it's very carbon intensive. But that I 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: think is a very short term way of thinking about it, 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: because lower trade could also mean lower economic growth, and 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: that could also mean lower emissions. So the perhaps reduction 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: in CO two could be even greater, not just from 29 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: a reduction in the volume of trade, but just reduction 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: in economic activity. Now, be careful, this is not the 31 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: kind of climate action we want. We want economies to 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: grow and reduce their emissions because that's what people want. 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: And so if you want political action for climate, you 34 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: want people to be happy that their economies are growing 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: and their emissions are reducing. 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: Basically, because you're saying that if the trade war is 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 3: as bad as we feel or think it might be, 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 3: then people who rely on those jobs are going to 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 3: lose their jobs. And that means yes, maybe similar carbon emissions, 40 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: but it also means people who are out of work. 41 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: That's right, And then there are secondary implications too. So 42 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: say you're trading less, it doesn't mean that the countries 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: demand for those products is gotten down. So you're going 44 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: to try and manufacture it at home, and if you 45 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: do that, you're going to have to build a new factory. 46 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: You'll have to come up with new processes, think of 47 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: a new supply chain and all that will also have 48 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: a carbon impact that we are not counting right now. 49 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: But there is a way in which you can use 50 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: trade for climate and that's what the European Union is 51 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: doing with its carbon border adjustment mechanism. And here's a 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: concrete example on how that can have a carbon impact. 53 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: So say you're steelmaker in European Union. You make your steel, 54 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: you produce about one point eight tons of carbon dioxide 55 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: emissions for every ton of steel. You're a Chinese maker, 56 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: and on average a Chinese maker is putting out two 57 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: point two tons of carbon dioxide for every ton of 58 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: CO two. But China makes it cheap, and the European 59 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: car maker wants to get cheap steel, and so they 60 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: just buy the Chinese steel, don't really think about carbon, 61 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: and the European Union like, stop, we don't want that. 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: We want you to reduce their emissions. And so if 63 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: China wants to send their steel to us, if their 64 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: emissions are more than European Union, they have to pay 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: a price on top. And so for the point four 66 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: tons of emissions they're going to have to pay in 67 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: current price about thirty dollars per ton of steel that 68 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: they export to the European Union, and that's an additional price, 69 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: and that will make the Chinese steelmaker want to reduce 70 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: their emissions, and we'll see if that works. But if 71 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: you really want to use trade to cut emissions, that's 72 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: the way to go. 73 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: So our next question comes from Eleanor Harrison Dengate, who's 74 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: a producer on Bloomberg's daily podcast, which is called The 75 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: Big Take, and her question arose after a trip she 76 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: recently took. 77 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 5: Hi Action and the Zero Team. I just had a 78 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 5: holiday in what you would definitely call oil country, specifically 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 5: in Calgary, Canada, where basically the whole city is built 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 5: off oil, and I met a lot of people there 81 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 5: who were very pro oil and very anti renewable energy. 82 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 5: And one of the concerns that they would bring up 83 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 5: about renewable energy when I asked them about this, was 84 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 5: that they said that renewable energy will never be dense 85 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 5: enough compared to fossil fuels or nuclear And I was 86 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 5: wondering if there's any truth in what they're saying, and 87 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 5: if that is the case that renewables aren't dense enough, now, 88 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 5: is there a way in the future where we will 89 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 5: see more dense renewable energies. Anyway, thanks very much and love. 90 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: The show, Eleanor nice to hear from you, and I'm 91 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: sorry you were caught in propaganda from the fossil fuel 92 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: industry and even the nuclear industry. There is some factual 93 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: basis to that question, so let me first go through 94 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: that and tell you why that is propaganda. The factual 95 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: part is energy density is a real metric. If we 96 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: take crude oil and say crude oil has one unit 97 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: of energy density, then nuclear fission. So the thing that 98 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: most nuclear power plants are made of, which is uranium fuel, 99 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: has a few hundred thousand times as much energy density 100 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: as crude oil, and if you wanted to go one up, 101 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: if you went to nuclear fusion fuel. So the thing 102 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: that powers the sun that has seven million times the 103 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: energy density, and then solar and wind are thousands of 104 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: times lower energy density than oil. So factually that makes 105 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: for a good argument. The problem is it's not really 106 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: about energy density most of the time. Sometimes it is 107 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: you want to fly on a trans atlantic flight, you 108 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: want an energy dense fuel because you only want to 109 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: fuel once and be able to travel thousands of kilometers 110 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: and land safely. 111 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 3: So you're saying we should make nuclear power planes. 112 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: Well, the trouble is it's not just the fuel. How 113 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: you convert the fuel into usable energy also matters, and 114 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: so your jet fuel is very good at not just 115 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: being energy dense, but also very good at converting that 116 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: energy density into motion. Nuclear terrible. So there are no 117 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: plans yet to make nuclear power planes. There might be 118 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: nuclear rocket engines at some point that are not going 119 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: to take off from the planet but may travel between stars. 120 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: But you know we're going down science fiction right now, 121 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: let's come back to Earth. The thing that really matters 122 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: is cost. At what cost and what availability Do you 123 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: get the fuel you want when you want to use it, 124 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: and when you use it how efficiently are you able 125 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: to use it? So twentieth century was the century of 126 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: oil because well, Winston Churchill decided coal powered boats aren't 127 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: going to win the war. We need oil powered ships, 128 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: and that's what he made a big bet on. That's 129 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: probably what helped Britain able to fight in World War Two. 130 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: It also helped power all the cars that we developed 131 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century. But we know that an electric 132 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: car now can do essentially all the things that a 133 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: fossil fuel car can do, and do it cheaply, and 134 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: do it in a way that is more efficient, because 135 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: your electric car is going four times the distance for 136 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: the same amount of energy as your fossil fuel car does. 137 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: This question is from Doug Bamford, who's a lecture based 138 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: in Oxfordshire, and he wants to know. 139 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 6: My question is about the finance industry and the climate change, 140 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 6: because I've seen headlines recently that US financial institutions have 141 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 6: pulled out of the net zero Banking Alliance that now 142 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 6: includes some UK headquartered banks as well, like HSBC and Barclay's, 143 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 6: and I'm wondering if this represents a major change in 144 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 6: the activities of these institutions, and if it is a 145 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 6: change even the mind one, then perhaps should climate conscious 146 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 6: investors and consumers of banking services be looking to shame 147 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 6: certain institutions and perhaps even to boycott them. Thanks very 148 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 6: much so. 149 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: A little bit of context, which is the net Zero 150 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: Banking Alliance is part of this larger group called the 151 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: Glasgow Financial Alliance on net zero. It's a whole bunch 152 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: of financial institutions that voluntarily joined up these groups where 153 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: they were going to set targets about how they spend 154 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: their money, and ideally they spend it towards non carbon 155 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: stuff so that they are financed emissions emissions from things 156 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: that they are getting money to start to fall and 157 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: get to net zero. That was launched in twenty twenty one, 158 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: and there's been quite a lot of change since then. 159 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: First it went through this period where lots and lots 160 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: of financial institutions became part of it. Then starting with 161 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: the election of Donald Trump and the general push from 162 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: the US government against anything to do with climate they 163 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: started to pull out. There are still a few members left, 164 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: but largely those are now hollow institutions. Here Bloomberg, we've 165 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: covered them quite well. So to the question whether this 166 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: has meant that their activities have changed, actually they have not. 167 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: When we look at the numbers of how much money 168 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: they are lending to fossil fuel companies versus renewable energy companies, 169 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: their renewble energy lending has actually gone up and fossil 170 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: fuel lending has fallen over the past year. Now that 171 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: might seem like, okay, then why did you leave the 172 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: net zero Alliance? Partly it's politics. Partly is that oil 173 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: companies are making tons of and do not want financing 174 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: from banks, and so they don't need the money, and 175 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: so not enough money is going to fossil fuel companies. 176 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: But the larger question is what do investors do as 177 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: a result of this? 178 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is not an easy question. There are 179 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: still banks that are part of the Net Zero Alliance 180 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: that are doing good things that investors could be investing in. 181 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: There are banks like City Bank, which left the Net 182 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: Zero Alliance but is actually going forward with all the 183 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: goal setting that the Net Zero Alliance wanted. But there 184 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: are also other banks which are annoyed by the behavior 185 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: of these banks, like Standard Chartered CEO came out and said, 186 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: it's shameful that these banks are leaving. 187 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: So some banks are using it their membership still as 188 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 3: a selling point. 189 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 1: They are because there are still governments around the world 190 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: that are committed to climate action. I think the even 191 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: larger question here is that how far can voluntary action 192 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: go at all? Right, because this is all being done 193 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: by banks wanting to be a part of a group 194 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: that is signaling a good thing for society. And you 195 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: can go back in history and look at corporate voluntary 196 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: action in general. Most of the time these companies are 197 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: doing things like coming and setting rules and regulations among 198 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,479 Speaker 1: themselves because they expect governments to come in and set regulations. 199 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: So they're like, well, well, you want safety in cars, 200 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: we'll figure out how to do seat belts, and hear 201 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: the rules in which we'll get all car companies to 202 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: make seed belts. And hey, government, look we've started doing this. 203 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: Why don't you just use these rules that we. 204 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 7: Are all following. 205 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: Anyway, so it's a wait for them to get regulations 206 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: that are there. They don't want them, but if they're 207 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: going to come, let us get them in the way. 208 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: We want those regulations. And to some extent, you can 209 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: imagine that these net zero alliances were a step towards 210 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: that they were expecting governments to start to regulate the 211 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: finance industry and they wanted to be ahead that regulation. 212 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: In some cases it has happened, so the UK and 213 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: New Zealand are now mandating regulating financial institutions to report 214 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: metrics that were essentially voluntarily done previously, but now our regulations. 215 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: But we also get politics changing, and that means sometimes 216 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: the process doesn't go all the way to a regulation, 217 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: and you get to this midway point and everybody builds. 218 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: But beyond the voluntary part of it and even the 219 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: regulatory part of it, from a banking standpoint, there's also 220 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: more of a conversation about transition risks, so investing in 221 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: an industry that could then be vulnerable to future regulation 222 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: or future lessened demand as a result of people realizing 223 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: the crimate crisis that we're actually in. So the transition 224 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: risk is actually one that's a calculated one, not necessarily 225 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: one from do gouddhism of trying to do the right thing. 226 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: And that's something that banks are sensitive to. 227 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: That's right, they are, but not to the same extent 228 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: as they would be to government regulations coming in. So 229 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: there are clearly banks that are oriented towards clean energy spending. 230 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: There are even banks that want to differentiate as being 231 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: banks that have no fossil fuel exposure, like Triodos Bank 232 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: here in Europe, who advertise themselves as the green bank 233 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: that you all should put your accounts in and not 234 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: in any of these other banks that have quit the alliance. 235 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: And so that's the market you get where people want 236 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: to differentiate themselves. But as a scaled up action for 237 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: where the finance industry goes towards investments, you'll need regulations 238 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: to actually have needle moving impact. 239 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 3: As a reporter, how do you know and how do 240 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 3: you trust that when people or organizations are making these pleasures, 241 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: so they actually believe in them rather than it just 242 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 3: being corporate green washing. So if you take yourself back 243 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: to twenty twenty one, twenty six up in Glasgow, when 244 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: a lot of this stuff is being made, did you 245 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 3: believe those promises at the time. 246 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: Well, specifically on finance, I don't think anybody believe them, 247 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: not even my colleagues here. But I would say green 248 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: promises from corporations are bigger than just financing institutions. Companies 249 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: like Google and Facebook and Meta and Microsoft have also 250 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: made lots of big green claims, and they've also made 251 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: lots of big emissions indeed, and so the way we 252 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: see those is not just believe them, but you know, 253 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: verify whether they are going in the right direction. So 254 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: Google is very clear in that they still want to 255 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: get to net zero by twenty thirty and get their 256 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: emissions for the past three four years have been going up, 257 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: and so they're saying we understand and we're going to 258 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: do something about it. But just verify whether they get 259 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: on track or not. Join us after the break for 260 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: more questions from Zero list and while I have you. 261 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this episode, please give Zero a review 262 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's great to hear your 263 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: feedback and it helps other listeners find the show. In 264 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: a recent review, Marico said that Zero is informative and 265 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: excellent solutions journalism, in depth stories of practical solutions all 266 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: over the world. 267 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 7: Thanks Marco. 268 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: Our next question comes from jau Baptista in Brazil, and 269 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: he asks who's actually going to buy green raw materials 270 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: like steel, ammonia and cement at scale. Living in a 271 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 3: developing country is hard to imagine people here paying, for example, 272 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 3: twenty percent more for a house, a fridge, or even 273 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: a bag of potatoes. Most of the demand seems to 274 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 3: be coming from the EU or from wealthier countries, and 275 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 3: I'm not sure that that's enough to justify the massive 276 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: investments to be made. 277 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: Well, the theory was never the developing countries would The 278 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: idea is well developed countries put out all these emissions 279 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: and climate change largely, today's a problem of developed country emissions, 280 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: and that they will pay for it by actually bringing 281 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: the green premium down by paying for expensive green technologies 282 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: that once they become affordable, are then taken up by 283 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: developing countries. And we have seen it happen once. So 284 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: Germany was among the early adopters of solar power. They 285 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: had a policy that came out the energy when they 286 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: in the early two thousands, and they spent about a 287 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: trillion euros deploying lots of solar in Germany. But it 288 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: was very expensive solar and that created this market which 289 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: then of course China took on and now everybody can 290 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: afford solar. So it's happened once. It hasn't yet happened 291 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: in steel or cement or ammonia. But it's a very 292 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: good point that all of these things require different sets 293 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: of technologies, and some government or maybe some company if 294 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: it's the scale of a Microsoft, which is now buying 295 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: most of the carbon removal credits, could try and bring 296 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: down the cost of these technologies, but developing countries not 297 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: so much. 298 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: And even today, I mean, the question is one about demand, 299 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 2: and the assumption is that they need to be more 300 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: demand by spreading it geographically. But the fact is that 301 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: when you look at the demand for still in China, 302 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: in the US in bid manufacturing hubs, it dwarfs by 303 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: far the demand in developing nations. So it's not so 304 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: much an issue of geographics spread as much as an 305 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: issue of those who use the most for them to 306 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: actually make that transition. 307 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: And there are countries in Africa that have ended up 308 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: using these green technologies once they've become cheap. 309 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, I mean in developing countries there's always going 310 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: to be an issue of prices activity, which is only 311 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: because there is also much less of a responsibility as 312 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 2: far as the climate situation that we're in today. But 313 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: you do see that when it makes economic sense, people 314 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: will choose things that could then also be climate mitigating. 315 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: So one example that we've written about is how a 316 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 2: fuel subsidy, a fossil fuel subsidy was drastically reduced in 317 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: Nigeria and that directly influenced the rise of solar panels 318 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 2: and solar energy for households. So that's a direct impact 319 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 2: that may not have been motivated by climate considerations. It's 320 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 2: an economic decision but had a climate positive impact. 321 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 3: And that's because so became the cheapest form of getting 322 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 3: energy over the field that was no longer subsidized exactly. 323 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 3: You know, is there an argument as well because you 324 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 3: look at the US, you look at the UK, there's 325 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 3: so much storytelling, for example, around cars about you go 326 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 3: on your road trip, you feel the thrum of the engine. 327 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 3: There's a real legacy of those technologies. But when you 328 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 3: look at developing countries where people might be buying their 329 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 3: first for the first time, no one in those famili's 330 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: got one that they don't have that fondness for their 331 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 3: old fossil fuel car that their dad used to drive, 332 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 3: and said they're looking at nice, shining, new electric cars 333 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 3: or checking hand allergic cars, whatever it is, and going, yes, 334 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 3: I'll have that instead because that's the new technology. 335 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: Well, I would say that that speaks to behaviors, so 336 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: they need to change behaviors as well. And I think 337 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 2: that is actually also relevant to a global self context. 338 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: Maybe not so much for cars, but I'm thinking of 339 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: generator since I mentioned Nigeria, and it's just a tradition. 340 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: You go, the light to go off, you go put 341 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: your generator on, and it's polluting and it's noisy, but 342 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: people are just used to it and so for a 343 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 2: long time actually, so the energy was almost on par 344 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: at least on a long term perspective, because there's a 345 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: big upfront cost, but then you don't have to pay anymore, 346 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 2: not very much at least, And so they were it's 347 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: really this thing of the behavioral change. Like I'm used 348 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: to putting on my generator. Why would I pay this 349 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: big upfront cost and then even though I know on 350 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 2: the long term it's a saving. But it's not until 351 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 2: the price was significantly lower than fossil fuel energy that 352 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: you started to see people really like check their behavior 353 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: and say, okay, well, I'm going to overlook this tradition 354 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: that I have and actually try this new technology and 355 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: then create a new behavioral pattern. But behavior is actually 356 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: a big part of what's needed for the energy transition, 357 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 2: beyond the cost. 358 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: Culturally speaking, it's not like there are not enough movies 359 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: or TV shows or social media now to encourage your 360 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: high carbon lifestyle and developing countries. Right even when I 361 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: was growing up in the nineties, we had movies where 362 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: they used to shoot them in Switzerland, so that you 363 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: felt like you wanted to travel to Switzerland because ooh, 364 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: film stars go there. There's always a way in which 365 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: marketing either that's through movies are through direct advertising will 366 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: make you want what others have, and I think that 367 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: is a behavior change I don't think is going to happen. 368 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: People will still want what others have. We just need 369 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: to make what others have cool and green. 370 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: Our next question comes from Ian Mears in the UK. 371 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 2: Why do you think there's still so much climate change 372 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 2: denial and active efforts to delay trying to fix it? 373 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: With extreme weather becoming far more frequent, it seems a 374 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: bizarre stance to take. And when I last checked, we 375 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: still don't have a backup planet to move to when 376 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 2: this one becomes uninhabitable. 377 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: Climate change general feels like a big thing. Actually, the 378 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: number of people who are climate change denials has been shrinking, 379 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: and largely they've been in anglosphere, so they've been in UK, US, 380 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: Australia has been well studied and also a lot of 381 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: climate change denial that has been funded has come from 382 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: countries like the US, where fossil fuel lobbyists or fossil 383 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: fuel companies have then funded campaigns to create propaganda. So 384 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: doubt run New York Times advertorials in the nineties that 385 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: stop legislation on climate from taking hold, it might feel 386 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: a little particularly loud right now because the US government 387 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of cabinet members in the US government 388 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: are talking essentially climate denier talking points right now. But 389 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: it is worth recognizing this is not a phenomena that 390 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: exists globally everywhere, and it's loud. It's perhaps your feed 391 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: about it or media coverage about it might make it 392 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: seem it's louder than it actually is. 393 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 3: But we are seeing a kind of resurgent right wing 394 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 3: of politics who are very climate denialists in many countries, 395 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 3: like even in the UK, we once had cross party 396 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 3: consensus between the two main parties, so lease between Conservatives 397 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 3: and Labor saying we want to reach net zero. The 398 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: Conservative Party introduce the net zero target by twenty fifty 399 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 3: for the UK, and yet they're also now the one 400 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 3: who are saying, oh no, we don't want to do 401 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 3: this anymore. It's a silly idea, is it. 402 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 2: Really climate denihilism or maybe choosing because it is a cost. 403 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: There's a cost to the transition, a clean energy transition, 404 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 2: but is also a cost to continuing as business as usual. 405 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,719 Speaker 2: Both ways, economies are going to lose, and the idea 406 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: is that our governments are bold enough to make short 407 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 2: term losses for longer term gains. And I think that's 408 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: the issue with the election cycle. You're talking about right 409 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: wing movements. People are concerned about securing the next election 410 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 2: and maybe not willing to make those longer term bets 411 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 2: that would ultimately save the economies but in the short 412 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: cost more. 413 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: And it's true, you know, like you ask an Indian 414 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: farmer who's been farming for the last thirty years, and 415 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: they will tell you something is wrong with how life 416 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: is going right now. This is not what the weather 417 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: used to be thirty years ago. They may not always 418 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: be able to point to climate change because the level 419 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: of education. What's the experience like for African farmers. 420 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll speak to African farmers, but I think 421 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: what you have pointed to is not just a level 422 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: of education, but also a language when we talk about 423 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 2: climate change. I mean, we got to interview here some 424 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 2: leaders from the Amazon and they were saying Mother Earth 425 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: is sick, and it's still climate change, but we're using 426 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: a different language, and so maybe that's also the point 427 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: of view from when the Indian farmer may be looking 428 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: at it. But speaking to the African context, there was 429 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: actually a report that said that about three fifths of 430 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 2: Africans and this was twenty eight countries, was three fifth 431 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: of Africans were aware of climate change. Out of that share, 432 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 2: about eighty percent said that their life was worse for it. 433 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: So they're intimately feeling the impact of climate change, which 434 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: is worth more than any scientific study about climate change itself. 435 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: And so you see that also because Africa is one 436 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: of the worst impacted parts of the world when it 437 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: comes to climate change. So actually in that report, one 438 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 2: of the countries where there was the most awareness was 439 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: Mauritious and it's not a coincidence that Mauritius was recently 440 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: hit by a cyclone that was very devastating. But then 441 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 2: even when you look at other parts of the continent. 442 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: In West Africa, the Sahel region is a big climate 443 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: hotspot with the worst heat waves that been in the UK, 444 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 2: and we're talking about heat waves, but there we're talking 445 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 2: about temperatures over forty degrees for more than three days, 446 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: and so you have cattle literally dying from heat stress 447 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: or lack of water or lack of pasture of grazing land. 448 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: So there you have impacts on people but also their livelihoods, 449 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: and so they're feeling it. Intimately, no one needs even 450 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: if they don't know the word climate change, they're feeling it. 451 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 2: They can't deny it, and they're not denying it. But 452 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 2: the issue then becomes do we have the resources and 453 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 2: the capacity to deal with it? And so that's why 454 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: governments are increasingly calling for adaptation finance to be able 455 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 2: to fend off the worst impacts of climate change. 456 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 3: And so our final question for this week comes from 457 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: Sheres Patanka, who's based in Canada, and I think it 458 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: touches on a lot of the points that you've just 459 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 3: raised their Yinka, and I want to put it to 460 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 3: both of you, and the question is given the Western 461 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: governments are stepping back from climate and I think in 462 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 3: particular the US, do you see opportunities for climate activists 463 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: and the clean tech industry in the West to partner 464 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 3: with governments or corporate entities in China on areas of 465 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 3: shared interest, namely decarbonization. 466 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, I see a rapprochement with China on all levels, 467 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: at least in the African context, as a partner that's 468 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 2: taking more importance. China holds its conference called the Fukak Summit, 469 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: where it basically it's in the Africa Summit where African leaders. 470 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: Virtually all the African leaders went in the last one 471 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: in September twenty twenty four. But what's very interesting is 472 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: that that summit has traditionally been about its Belt and 473 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 2: Road initiative and how it invests on the African continent. 474 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: That initiative is becoming greener. The Chinese government has said 475 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 2: that it's looking to do more clean energy projects. We 476 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: don't know yet if that's what's going to happen on 477 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: the ground, but there is that thinking behind how the 478 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: BRI is going to evolve. One is going to be greener, 479 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: and also it's going to be smaller initiative that will 480 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 2: be easier to execute. So we're waiting to see if 481 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: that happens. But within that context, there's also been a 482 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 2: conversation about technology transfer and making sure that some of 483 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 2: that technology comes back to Africa, and that's quite different 484 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: because usually China has been a place where companies and 485 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: government come to Africa for materials for resources and it's 486 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 2: basically shipped to China and manufactured there. So it would 487 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 2: be interesting to see if we actually see these projects 488 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: and whether some of that technology actually comes back to 489 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: Africa because a big, big issue, maybe even bigger than 490 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: climate right now for Africans these jobs. So it's really 491 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: important to create green jobs to go along with this 492 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: greener transition. 493 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: And we are already seeing that in terms of technologies 494 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: that are already cheaper. It doesn't matter for developing countries 495 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: whether it's coming from China or not. So Pakistan last 496 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: year brought as many solar panels to power twenty five 497 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: percent of It's great if it had installed them all together. 498 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: This year is doing the same thing with batteries. We 499 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: also know that countries that are politically aligned with China 500 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: to some extent will welcome Chinese companies to come to 501 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: their markets and produce those goods. So Hungary in the 502 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: European Union has been attracting companies like bid An Electric 503 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: Car Company or COTL or Electric Car battery Company, or 504 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: in Brazil, which has very good relations right now with China, 505 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: where bd has opened a factory. A lot of Brazilian 506 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: cars are dual fuel, so they'll run on gasoline or 507 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: ethanol being locally produced in Brazil. And yet Brazil is 508 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: welcoming of Chinese electric cars because Brazil also has very 509 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: cheap green electricity coming from hydromostly and so economically it's 510 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: advantageous their jobs, cheaper cars, cheaper fuel, why not. We 511 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: are definitely seeing China use sort of the brick card Brazil, Russia, India, China. 512 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: Plus now they've got Saudi Arabia in there and UE 513 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: in there as a way to promote their green technologies. 514 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: So the Arabia was one of the biggest importers of 515 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: solar in recent years. So it is true that the 516 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: home for green technologies is much bigger outside of the US. 517 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: You know, the US is, okay, twenty five percent of 518 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: the global economy in economic terms, twelve percent of its emissions. 519 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: It's a big world out there, and right now China 520 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: is setting itself up for being the place to get 521 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: green tech. Well, that brings an end to this first 522 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: ever mailbag episodes. Thanks again to everyone who's sent questions 523 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: in for us, and we'd love to do this kind 524 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: of episode again in the future. So if you do 525 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: have a burning question having listened to this that you 526 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: want to send to the Zero team, to Accha, or 527 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: to anyone else working at Bloomberg Green, please send that 528 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: question to zero Pod at Bloomberg dot net Acua, Yinka, 529 00:30:53,720 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: thank you very much, thank you, thank you, and thank 530 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: you for listening to zero. And now for the sound 531 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: of the week. That is the sound of new trains 532 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: being tested on London's Piccadilly Line. These new trains will 533 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: go into service early next year and will be finally 534 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: fitted with air conditioning. You can read more about how 535 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: the London Underground is coping with heat in a story 536 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: we've linked in the show notes. If you like this episode, 537 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 538 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a 539 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: friend or with someone who has questions about the climate. 540 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd and Yinka ibukum Our. 541 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: Theme music is composed by Wonderly Special. Thanks to Eleanor Harrison, Dngate, Samersadi, 542 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: Moses Andim and Shawan Wagner. I'm Akshadrati back soon.