Speaker 1: It was very clear by age of fifteen sixteen, when
Speaker 1: I was already a grandmaster, that I became the only
Speaker 1: woman player in those tournaments where let's say there were
Speaker 1: thirteen men adults and I was the only girl or woman.
Speaker 1: Later on, but it meant that I had to have
Speaker 1: the perseverance for that, to stand up always when something
Speaker 1: went wrong or they beat me, to have that the
Speaker 1: fighting spirit, to have the dedication, to have the passion
Speaker 1: for the game. That was Judith Paulgar. She's been called
Speaker 1: the greatest woman chess player of all time, but her
Speaker 1: achievements go beyond gender lines. At age fifteen, she became
Speaker 1: the youngest person ever to achieve grand master's status, younger
Speaker 1: than Bobby Fisher was when he earned that title, and
Speaker 1: she defeated many of the world's most renowned men players,
Speaker 1: including Gary Kasparov and Boris Spassky. I'm aland Ververe and
Speaker 1: this is Seneca's one women to hear. We are bringing
Speaker 1: you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history
Speaker 1: making women. You need to hear. Judit Polgar, who is
Speaker 1: forty five, has been excelling at chess for more than
Speaker 1: four decades since she was a five year old in
Speaker 1: a chess plank family in Hungary. Today, she coaches chess
Speaker 1: and inspires the next generation of players through the Judith
Speaker 1: Polgar Chess Foundation. Listen and learn why Judit Polgar is
Speaker 1: one of Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. I'm here
Speaker 1: today with Judith Polgar, who is considered to be the
Speaker 1: best woman chess player of all time. Jude, it is
Speaker 1: a pleasure sure to have you with us. Thank you
Speaker 1: very much, nice to be here. Really, you became a
Speaker 1: grand master at age fifteen. You were ranked eighth in
Speaker 1: the world male or female. You've beaten many of the
Speaker 1: men who were world champions. What is that special thing
Speaker 1: that makes you different that makes you a top chess player.
Speaker 1: I believe that mainly the way I was raised and
Speaker 1: my parents gave and supported me in many different ways
Speaker 1: and and also inspired me to have a mindset that
Speaker 1: I know that I can do it, and they always
Speaker 1: said that I can do it. They try to give
Speaker 1: the most possible opportunities to me, having the good trainers,
Speaker 1: giving opportunity to play in the right tournament, and also
Speaker 1: support me emotionally and in every way, so I'm able
Speaker 1: to improve from day to days. So that's how I
Speaker 1: think I could become really good in chess. Well, you
Speaker 1: mentioned your parents, and I know that you began playing
Speaker 1: in tournaments when you were just six years old. Tell
Speaker 1: us how you got introduced to chess. Was it your
Speaker 1: parents and what was your training? Like? Why were you
Speaker 1: attracted to chess? Actually, for me, I had a paved
Speaker 1: road ahead of me because I have two older sisters.
Speaker 1: Susan who is the oldest, she's seven year older than me,
Speaker 1: So when I started to play chess when I was five,
Speaker 1: she had already very serious results, even internationally. So Sophia,
Speaker 1: the middle one, she also played chess already, and when
Speaker 1: I was a baby, already my parents knew that my
Speaker 1: path is to become a chess champion, and they did
Speaker 1: everything in order to to make me one. And so
Speaker 1: it was very natural for me that I wanted to
Speaker 1: follow my sisters and I started to play chess. Then
Speaker 1: I started to have my first tournament, and very fast
Speaker 1: they discovered that I'm talented and I'm growing very fast
Speaker 1: in my chess knowledge, and somehow my character was also
Speaker 1: very much suited for competitions. So this is how I
Speaker 1: started to get to be involved with chess, and of
Speaker 1: course when you have positive feedback from your parents, when
Speaker 1: you go to a chess tournament with you win your game,
Speaker 1: those are the best fuel to move on and to
Speaker 1: be inspired again and again. And what was it about
Speaker 1: chess your sisters? As you said, we're very engaged, But
Speaker 1: what made it so compelling for you? I mean, after all,
Speaker 1: you have to put in such long hours to become
Speaker 1: a champion. I think I just started to love the
Speaker 1: game very much, and it gave me a lot of
Speaker 1: pleasure to not only to win the game and win
Speaker 1: against adult men, but also what I enjoyed a lot
Speaker 1: from the very beginning the creativity part of chess, which
Speaker 1: means that to make combinations, to to create some unexpected
Speaker 1: solutions and something very beautiful. And in chess we say
Speaker 1: if you give up some pieces and then suddenly unexpectedly
Speaker 1: win the game. So those kind of solutions are liked
Speaker 1: very much. And also my playing style was very much
Speaker 1: like that that. I was very aggressive. I wanted to
Speaker 1: win the game as short as possible and give checkmate
Speaker 1: to my opponent. And I really like those creative moments
Speaker 1: and and combinations which I learned at home and then
Speaker 1: later on I could apply it in tournament chess as well.
Speaker 1: So interesting, Now, women and chess don't typically go together,
Speaker 1: But when you were a child, you competed against boys.
Speaker 1: You want, what sort of obstacles have you had to
Speaker 1: face as a girl or as a woman in chess,
Speaker 1: and how did you deal with those? Obviously, my sisters
Speaker 1: were supporting me a lot, and they had already the
Speaker 1: experience and they were sharing it with me and supporting
Speaker 1: me how to do it differently. Let's say, well, of course,
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, people did not really believe
Speaker 1: that my knowledge is stable, and they said, okay, she's
Speaker 1: just lucky here. Her opponent was sick, her opponent was
Speaker 1: wasn't in good for so they were always excuses, or
Speaker 1: many times there were excuses. And later on I also
Speaker 1: experienced that I had to prove myself much more time
Speaker 1: than as if I would have been a talented boy,
Speaker 1: because this was normal. And then it was very clear
Speaker 1: by age of fifteen sixteen, when I was already a grandmaster,
Speaker 1: that I became the only woman player in those two
Speaker 1: naments where I started to play those invitational tournaments where
Speaker 1: let's say there were thirteen men adults and I was
Speaker 1: the only girl or woman later on, and I mean
Speaker 1: one of the nicest things they told me already much
Speaker 1: later when an and world champion was asked what does
Speaker 1: he think about Judith Bulger and then he didn't really
Speaker 1: understand the question and reply that, well, she's one of us,
Speaker 1: and so I worked hard for that that they acknowledged
Speaker 1: my results and they really treated me like another very
Speaker 1: strong grandmaster. But it meant that I I had to
Speaker 1: have the perseverance for that to stand up always when
Speaker 1: as something went wrong or they beat me, to have
Speaker 1: that fighting spirit, to have that dedication, to have that
Speaker 1: passion for the game. And I think also that my
Speaker 1: character suited very much or competition. It also helped a lot.
Speaker 1: She's one of us. That's high praise coming from a guy,
Speaker 1: especially a world champion. By any chance, was that Gary
Speaker 1: Kasparo who was speaking, He certainly was a world champion,
Speaker 1: a grand master, one of the chess giants that you
Speaker 1: have beaten. He was dismissive of you. I gather uh
Speaker 1: and women players in general when you first came on
Speaker 1: the scene. But what did you think of his comments then?
Speaker 1: And how did you help him change his mind? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, the to change people's mind is always something difficult,
Speaker 1: but usually results eventually convinced them, and this was the
Speaker 1: case for me also with my events and games with
Speaker 1: kasparo As when he said those things. For example in
Speaker 1: eight eight when he was asked after me and my
Speaker 1: sister as with one gold medal for Hungary Hungary in
Speaker 1: the ladies team those very few occasions when I played
Speaker 1: in ladies competitions, he was asked from a journalist that
Speaker 1: what does he think, how good can I become? I
Speaker 1: was only twelve years old, and he said, well, he
Speaker 1: believes that absolutely I am going to become a world champion.
Speaker 1: And when the reporter asked him that what do you
Speaker 1: think can you ever play with her? Then he said,
Speaker 1: well I don't think so. I it's almost impossible. And
Speaker 1: what happened was later on, when I was sixteen, I
Speaker 1: played my first game against Kasparov and after that many
Speaker 1: other occasions repeated it and he was beating me quite
Speaker 1: a few times. But then the time came when I
Speaker 1: made some draws. We had a very fighting draw. Also
Speaker 1: I had an opportunity where it was very difficult for him,
Speaker 1: so he was sweating a little bit, almost being scared
Speaker 1: that he can lose the game, and then later on,
Speaker 1: at one point I was also winning against him. So
Speaker 1: it was very clear that little by little I could
Speaker 1: improve my chest and I could also perform and show
Speaker 1: it on the chessboard against him. And this is how
Speaker 1: I gained respect with all the grandmasters. That's simply I
Speaker 1: was playing better. I want again a game against them,
Speaker 1: which meant that they had to experience it on their
Speaker 1: own skin. What it what it is when they lose
Speaker 1: against me? And then they started to change their attitude.
Speaker 1: What was it like that first time when you beat Kasparov?
Speaker 1: It was great? But I have to tell you that
Speaker 1: already before I made in a huge tournament which was
Speaker 1: considered the Vimbloden of chess in Linares a year ago,
Speaker 1: I played two fantastic games against him, and I considered
Speaker 1: those at least as important in my career as the
Speaker 1: one which I wont Seneca's one hundred Women to hear
Speaker 1: will be back after the short break? Yeah, Now, as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, mostly you played against men rather than other women.
Speaker 1: What was your thinking behind that? Well, I'm I feel
Speaker 1: very fortunate that my parents raised me this way, that
Speaker 1: they were always focusing on the objective performance in the
Speaker 1: sport and not limit my limit me and my sisters
Speaker 1: that we can only become masters grandmasters between ladies. Because
Speaker 1: the problem is that when you say that, for example,
Speaker 1: too a little girl you save and there are six
Speaker 1: that you can become a great world champion between women,
Speaker 1: and you say the same thing for a boy that
Speaker 1: you can become the world champion between men. The different
Speaker 1: thing is that it's like in reality as if you
Speaker 1: would say to a girl that you can have a PhD.
Speaker 1: And you inspired the boy that you can be a
Speaker 1: Nobel prize winner. So this is the huge difference. And
Speaker 1: this is why I'm really grateful to my parents that
Speaker 1: they were always believing in me that I should be
Speaker 1: performing as good as possible and be the best I
Speaker 1: can objectively in the sport, not talking the difference between
Speaker 1: women and men chess. And I think this gave me
Speaker 1: a great vision on life, on on in everything, how
Speaker 1: I raise my kids, how I live my life, and
Speaker 1: and and this I'm very very happy for that. This
Speaker 1: is what my parents told me, and I for me,
Speaker 1: this was the most natural thing that obviously, of course
Speaker 1: I look at the sport not about the gender questions
Speaker 1: are your children interested in chef. They were playing when
Speaker 1: they were in kindergarten and in elementary school for a
Speaker 1: second grade, but after that they gave up. They were
Speaker 1: not interested anymore. To each his own, as we say,
Speaker 1: they have to follow their own path. Why do you
Speaker 1: think it is that there aren't very many women in chess?
Speaker 1: What's holding women back? There are many reasons. I think
Speaker 1: one is that society is not really supporting that. As
Speaker 1: let's say, if a boy wants to become competitive in chess,
Speaker 1: there are somehow more accepting that attitude from a boy
Speaker 1: than from a girl life. But also generally teachers are
Speaker 1: not supportive so much. Parents may be also not that supportive.
Speaker 1: And actually there are many girls who play. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: even fifty fifty until age ten eleven or so, and
Speaker 1: only after that it becomes a huge dropout for girls.
Speaker 1: And probably also because they start to to be more
Speaker 1: serious about their studies, they get matured earlier, and and
Speaker 1: somehow they don't like this lifestyle and in society is
Speaker 1: not supporting them at all, They are not encouraging them that, Wow,
Speaker 1: this would be a great profession for you. Do you
Speaker 1: think there's some connection between chess and the stem field
Speaker 1: because you know, girls get so interested in math and
Speaker 1: science and then so often along the way they drop up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting, why is that? But I think there are
Speaker 1: going to be more and more girls in the STEM
Speaker 1: field also, first of all, because it can be an
Speaker 1: interesting way of having family and the work because you
Speaker 1: can work from home much easier. I think in many
Speaker 1: of those fields. Yes, hopefully changes coming forward. I know
Speaker 1: that today you are focused on the international promotion of
Speaker 1: the sport um that you've written books. The Judith Pulgar
Speaker 1: Chess Foundation was established several years ago and you've got
Speaker 1: the Chess Festival coming up. Tell us about it and
Speaker 1: what's its mission and what makes this year so special? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I established my Chess Foundation in two thousand twelve and
Speaker 1: we are focusing on promoting chess and specifically chess in
Speaker 1: education for kids. And we have the Global Chess Festival,
Speaker 1: which is aiming to share the passion for chess with
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. So we have the slogan
Speaker 1: of Chess connects Us where we have a festival. This
Speaker 1: year is going to be hybrid, which means that it's
Speaker 1: going to be in the Hungarian National Gallery with the
Speaker 1: different conferences on chess, on education, also about creativity and
Speaker 1: innovation and connecting to science and chess. We're also going
Speaker 1: to have some demo workshops how chess and math connect,
Speaker 1: how coding is connecting also with my educational program is
Speaker 1: going to be shown to the big audience. And we're
Speaker 1: going to be having also online activities apart from the
Speaker 1: chess tournament for kids and for everybody else. For adults,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have some interactive chess channel for the chess enthusiast,
Speaker 1: but we're also going to have some very special artistic work,
Speaker 1: for example, a musician who is actually creating chess music
Speaker 1: in her songs. Now, when it's not um hybrid does
Speaker 1: to take place in a single location, How does the
Speaker 1: festival occur? Yeah, generally we have another thread of the festival,
Speaker 1: which is that we have it in Budapest, but we
Speaker 1: want to inspire from every little city, everybody who is
Speaker 1: a little bit attached to chess. If they have organized
Speaker 1: an event, whether it's a chess fashion show or a
Speaker 1: chess film is projected, or whether it's chess tournament, chess
Speaker 1: simultaneous exhibition, anything related to chess, if they send it
Speaker 1: to us, we are uploading their information also on our website,
Speaker 1: and we do hope that eventually within years we're going
Speaker 1: to have this special day of second Saturday of each
Speaker 1: October where the whole world, in the smallest cities played
Speaker 1: chess or have chess related activities at the same time.
Speaker 1: So exciting. Is there one book that you've written that
Speaker 1: you would recommend to our listeners if they wanted to
Speaker 1: get interested in chess. Well, I've been writing about my
Speaker 1: life of more than three decades of of my career
Speaker 1: with stories and chess games and puzzles. It's the Judith
Speaker 1: paulgar Teaches Chess series. But this is already for for
Speaker 1: those who play on a certain level like a club
Speaker 1: player or so. My other book, which is for beginners
Speaker 1: for kids, it's only in Hungarian. So this is what
Speaker 1: I can offer for now. But I have also on
Speaker 1: the courses on internet. Well, I regret that we're coming
Speaker 1: to the end of our conversation, but I did want
Speaker 1: to ask you before we close, what makes you optimistic
Speaker 1: today about women's participation in chess. We're making progress, as
Speaker 1: you've said, coming a long way from the days when
Speaker 1: you were a little girl. But just how how do
Speaker 1: you see the future for women in chess well, obviously
Speaker 1: it has to improve, but it did already quite significantly.
Speaker 1: Nowadays there are more events for ladies and the bigger
Speaker 1: price funds, which also makes a difference. But still I
Speaker 1: do hope that there are going to be more girls
Speaker 1: and women later who feel that they want to be
Speaker 1: really the best in the sports and the best they
Speaker 1: can be, not only between ladies. And this is what
Speaker 1: I'm working hard, and I like to motivate the girl
Speaker 1: especially youngsters, that they should believe in themselves. They should
Speaker 1: be having high expectations from themselves. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I think it's very important that their coaches and especially
Speaker 1: their parents should be having great expectations and support their
Speaker 1: daughters that they should become the best they can, so
Speaker 1: don't limit them. That's a wonderful message to close on
Speaker 1: and a great lesson no matter what the pursuit in
Speaker 1: which one is engaged. Thank you for being the inspiration
Speaker 1: that you are, for talking with us today, for making
Speaker 1: this sport come alive, and for being the greatest female
Speaker 1: chess player of all time. Judith Pulgar, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. What a treat and an education
Speaker 1: to talk to chess legend Judith Polgar. Here are three
Speaker 1: things I took from that conversation. First, Judith Polgar offers
Speaker 1: a recipe for success for children. It's a mix of
Speaker 1: early encouragement, positive feedback, and using initial winds to build
Speaker 1: the confidence that leads to many more winds. Second, Judith
Speaker 1: says it's important to challenge girls to be the best
Speaker 1: at whatever they do, not only to be the best
Speaker 1: among girls or among boys, but to be the best period. Finally,
Speaker 1: if we want girls to attain the heights, we need
Speaker 1: to set their expectations high. Yes, you can win a
Speaker 1: Nobel Prize. Yes you can be a chess grand man. Ester.
Speaker 1: When girls dream big and they have support, they can soar.
Speaker 1: And if you think your child might be interested in chess,
Speaker 1: or you yourself are, check out Judith Polgar's Global Chess Festival.
Speaker 1: It starts on October nine. Visit Global Chess Festival dot
Speaker 1: com and tune in next week to hear about our
Speaker 1: next featured woman and discover why she's one of Seneca's
Speaker 1: one Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear
Speaker 1: is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio with support from founding partner PNG. Have
Speaker 1: a great day.