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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a man whose wife of forty years has

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Speaker 1: passed away wonders how to grieve while also moving forward

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Speaker 1: in a new relationship.

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Speaker 3: She would say, in an accusatory way, You simply haven't

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Speaker 3: had enough time. You haven't stopped grieving. But this was

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Speaker 3: an excuse to put some distance between us.

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Speaker 2: First, A quick note therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 2: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it

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Speaker 2: is not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: or treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to

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Speaker 2: let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and

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Speaker 2: we may edit it for length and clarity. In the

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Speaker 2: sessions you'll hear, all names have been changed for the

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Speaker 2: privacy of our guests. Hi Laurie, Hi Guy.

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Speaker 1: So what are we going to be talking about today?

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Speaker 2: Today? We're going to be talking about grief. And here's

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Speaker 2: the letter, Dear therapists. I lost my wife almost three

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Speaker 2: years ago. We would have been married forty years on

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Speaker 2: our next anniversary. For the last one and a half years,

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Speaker 2: I've been involved with a wonderful woman whom I'm grown

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Speaker 2: to love, but who lives twelve hundred miles away. Although

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Speaker 2: we talk on the phone twice daily, we get to

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Speaker 2: spend time with one another just one week in every

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Speaker 2: five I am going stir crazy living by myself for

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Speaker 2: the first time in my life. My depression gets deeper

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Speaker 2: with every passing week, and I can't imagine living this

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Speaker 2: way in the years ahead. And I've been retired for

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Speaker 2: several years, but I do host meetup group walks and

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Speaker 2: pickleball events. I also volunteer some of my time to

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Speaker 2: a literacy organization. Every hour I spend at home seems

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Speaker 2: like days I'm in therapy, but the results have been limited.

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Speaker 2: I would be very receptive to any advice you can offer.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Richard.

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Speaker 1: So, first of all, I can understand how hard this

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Speaker 1: is on Richard. He's been married for forty years, he

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Speaker 1: lost his wife, and he's really trying to adjust to

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Speaker 1: a new normal. And I think that people imagine that

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Speaker 1: somehow grief goes away, and it doesn't. So it's been

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Speaker 1: three years. He's going to miss his wife for the

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Speaker 1: rest of his life. The question is how can he

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Speaker 1: hold on to some connection to his wife and also

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Speaker 1: not move on, but move forward in some way so

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Speaker 1: he can enjoy the rest of the time that he has.

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Speaker 2: I completely agree. It seems like he's thinking in this

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Speaker 2: way that I just have to get used to being alone,

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Speaker 2: and I have to get used to being without someone.

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Speaker 2: And in part, he was in a long distance relationship

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Speaker 2: in which he was alone most of the time. But

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Speaker 2: I don't think he has to get used to being miserable,

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Speaker 2: and it sounds like the long distance relationship is making

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Speaker 2: him miserable. So I'm curious about the choice of the

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Speaker 2: long distance relationship and why he chose to get into

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Speaker 2: that and how that even came about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's go talk to him and see how

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Speaker 1: we can help. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. I'm

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Speaker 1: Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: So, Hi Richard, welcome to our show.

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Speaker 3: Hi Guy and Laurie, thanks for inviting me.

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Speaker 2: You're very welcome. And first are condolences for your loss.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, And we would like to hear about your wife.

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Speaker 2: Just tell us the about her, about the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we met. I was a grad student and was

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Speaker 3: on an internship and this was nineteen seventy eight, and

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Speaker 3: we got married in nineteen eighty one. Michelle died in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty September, so in six months would have been

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Speaker 3: our fortieth anniversary. And we have one child who's thirty three.

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Speaker 3: And it was a wonderful marriage and tough at first.

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Speaker 3: I was very young, she's four years older. But it

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Speaker 3: grew to be a wonderful marriage and it just got

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Speaker 3: better and better, and we both retired. She retired and

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Speaker 3: then encouraged me to retire, which I did so I

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Speaker 3: thought that might be difficult, but it was wonderful. It

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Speaker 3: was really wonderful.

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Speaker 1: How old were you both when you first met?

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Speaker 3: When we first met, I was twenty two, Michelle was

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Speaker 3: twenty six.

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Speaker 1: What was tough at the beginning.

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Speaker 3: I was very young. I didn't have a lot of experience.

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Speaker 3: I had a college girlfriend, still didn't know how to

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Speaker 3: be in relationship. Michelle being a woman and being several

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Speaker 3: years older, I think she had to teach me how

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Speaker 3: to be a good spouse. And it took several years,

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Speaker 3: and our son wasn't orange till we were married eight years.

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Speaker 3: We did that intentionally, and by then we had very

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Speaker 3: loving marriage.

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Speaker 1: You said you didn't have a lot of experience in

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Speaker 1: relationship and you were very young. What was it about

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Speaker 1: Michelle that made you want to commit to this person

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Speaker 1: for life?

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Speaker 3: She left in my jokes, and she was very funny,

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Speaker 3: and she was also very worldly, more so than I was.

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Speaker 3: She knew about art, she knew about Actually the two

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Speaker 3: of us could run a Jeopardy board, you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of mutually exclusive. And I love that she was intelligent.

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Speaker 3: She read the New York Times, so I that was

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Speaker 3: a very big deal.

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Speaker 2: So what you're describing is that you were really good friends.

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Speaker 2: You really could have fun together. You enjoyed the same things.

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Speaker 2: You were really sympatical in terms of your interests. The

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Speaker 2: fact that you said that we can both run a

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Speaker 2: jeopardy board, You're both interested in world knowledge. It sounds

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Speaker 2: like you really enjoyed each other on so many levels.

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Speaker 3: You know, we did. And she was also out in

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Speaker 3: the working world, which no one I knew was. I

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Speaker 3: was working with two other students who I also went

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Speaker 3: to undergraduate, and they were involved with young women who

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Speaker 3: were also students or just getting established, and she seemed

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Speaker 3: so grown up and confident, So that's what attracted me

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Speaker 3: to her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Richard, you said that Michelle retired and then you

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Speaker 2: retired as well. Yes, tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 2: how you spent time during your retirement and how that

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Speaker 2: was for both of you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mentioned that she died two and a half

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Speaker 3: years ago, and she had homonary issues, cardiac issues. She

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Speaker 3: was on oxygen the last couple of years. I was

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Speaker 3: essentially her nurse, which is why I also retired. But

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Speaker 3: she was very mobile. We'd made sure that I got

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Speaker 3: Michelle a mobile scooter and a transport chair, so we

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Speaker 3: had a very active social life. First of all, Michelle

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Speaker 3: and I every morning We have two dogs, and in

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Speaker 3: Michelle's last couple of years, we would sit and have

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Speaker 3: breakfast with the dogs. And you would think a couple

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Speaker 3: that was married forty years wouldn't have a lot to

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Speaker 3: talk about, but it was at least an hour more

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Speaker 3: often too.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: We were always friends, getting very emotional.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like such a beautiful relationship where even forty

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Speaker 1: years down the line, you have a couple of hours

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Speaker 1: in the morning where you just want to talk with

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Speaker 1: each other and you don't run out of things to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean again. We sometimes read the same books.

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Speaker 3: Michel and I were, even in this day and age,

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Speaker 3: were newspaper readers, but it wasn't just about the news,

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Speaker 3: but we were interested in things outside of our own

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Speaker 3: personal experience. That was another commonality. We were intellectually curious.

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Speaker 1: Did she have some time in retirement when she was healthy? No,

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Speaker 1: not really tell us about when she got sick and

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Speaker 1: what happened and how you found out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she always has some cardiac issues and she was diabetic,

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Speaker 3: and it was just very difficult more and more and

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Speaker 3: more for her to breathe, to the point where it

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Speaker 3: was very hard for using the equipment to maintain a

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Speaker 3: healthy level of oxygen, but she persevered. Michelle had a

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Speaker 3: mobile oxygen device that we took with us. But that's

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Speaker 3: one of the reasons she retired, and that's one of

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Speaker 3: the reasons I retired.

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Speaker 1: She said she always had cardiac issues and pulmonary issues.

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Speaker 1: How early in the marriage did these become a parent

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Speaker 1: Did you know this from the very beginning, or did

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Speaker 1: these become a parent later on?

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Speaker 3: Michelle had gestational diabetes and she was told that it

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Speaker 3: would return, and it did, and she was on insulin,

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Speaker 3: lots of insulin. The pulmonary issues every six months or so.

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Speaker 3: There was a hospital stay for a few.

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Speaker 1: Days, even when you were in your twenties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was undiagnosed, I mean really undiagnosed.

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Speaker 3: But they just sent her home. And this happened time

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Speaker 3: and time again. It was not debilitating, but maybe it started.

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Speaker 3: Every couple of years she said, I need to go

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Speaker 3: to the hospital, and she would. Between the hospital visits,

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Speaker 3: she was more or less fine. She appeared healthy.

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Speaker 1: Did the two of you find that alarming that she

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Speaker 1: would end up in the hospital and you had no

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Speaker 1: idea what was causing this.

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Speaker 3: The doctors gave us some false comfort. There's nothing wrong

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Speaker 3: with her. She did not have a heart attack that

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Speaker 3: we could detect. They would send her home and we

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Speaker 3: would think that was okay. But it did get more

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Speaker 3: and more frequent, and then her symptoms started presenting themselves,

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Speaker 3: but that was into her fifties.

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Speaker 2: Probably nothing when there's something chronic like that with as

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Speaker 2: an emergency and then things are okay, Then there's another

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Speaker 2: emergency of visit and things are okay. Over the years,

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Speaker 2: you kind of sometimes get used to it. What was

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Speaker 2: the point in which you, at least for the first time,

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Speaker 2: started to think, oh, this might be the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the end.

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Speaker 3: Now I think Michelle and I both assume that I

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Speaker 3: would outlive her, but neither of us expected or die

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Speaker 3: when she did. The hospital is it's got more and

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Speaker 3: more frequent. They diagnosed her with pulmonary hypertension. It was

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Speaker 3: prevax's COVID. The last time she went to the hospital

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Speaker 3: and I couldn't see her, and she was there for

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Speaker 3: a few days in my town, and then she went

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Speaker 3: down to Miami because they had equipment that they thought

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Speaker 3: she would need. They allowed me to see her for

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Speaker 3: a couple of hours, and then she went down to

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Speaker 3: Miami doctor Cole the day before she died, saying, prepare

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Speaker 3: for hospice care. And I'd been through this with my dad.

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Speaker 3: I was a project manager in real life, so I

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Speaker 3: thought I just went into that mode. I didn't feel

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Speaker 3: sorry for myself, and I was ready to receive her

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Speaker 3: and to give her the same kind of care with

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Speaker 3: the help of hospice staff that my father. I'd been

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Speaker 3: through that before.

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Speaker 1: When they said hospice and you went into project manager mode?

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Speaker 1: Did you think it all so there's no tree for

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Speaker 1: her and she's going to die?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's what hospice is.

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Speaker 1: Yes, What was that like for you?

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Speaker 3: I didn't have time because I think it was maybe

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Speaker 3: twelve hours before I got a call at two in

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Speaker 3: the morning and the doctor said, I'm sorry, she doesn't

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Speaker 3: have long to live. I think they tried me, and

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Speaker 3: I actually was exhausted and I fell asleep. They tried

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Speaker 3: me about eleven PM, and I slept through it, and

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Speaker 3: then they tried me at two saying we tried to

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Speaker 3: get in touch with you, and now Michelle has only minutes.

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Speaker 3: And I stayed on the phone and they told me

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Speaker 3: she had passed.

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Speaker 2: So you didn't have a chance to speak to her

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Speaker 2: or to say goodbye to her.

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Speaker 3: No, when Michelle was in the local hospital before she

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Speaker 3: was transferred, they gave me a couple of hours with her,

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Speaker 3: and then the transport came, and I didn't expect that

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Speaker 3: that would be the last time I saw Michelle.

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Speaker 2: Richard, I'm glad you said you were a project manager,

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Speaker 2: because part of what I'm hearing is that in some

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Speaker 2: of these most difficult moments you went into project manager mode.

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Speaker 2: There were things to be done, like, oh, hospice, been

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Speaker 2: through that with my dad, know what to do, Let's

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Speaker 2: get on it. And it sounds like you were in

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Speaker 2: that mode, which was useful to you because it was

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Speaker 2: kind of protective. I don't think you feel as much

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Speaker 2: in project manager mode as you might if you were

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Speaker 2: just present with what was going on. And my question is,

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Speaker 2: at what point did you stop being in project manager

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Speaker 2: mode and start to feel the loss of what was

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Speaker 2: happening around you.

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Speaker 3: So two fifteen in the morning, I called my brother

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Speaker 3: and I'm in shock, and then he called people. I

249
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Speaker 3: didn't get any sleep, and the next day I was

250
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Speaker 3: in the kitchen and you could see from the kitchen

251
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Speaker 3: into the living room where we used to be every

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Speaker 3: morning for a couple of hours, and I absolutely broke down.

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Speaker 3: We were all in lockdown, and I don't know where

254
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Speaker 3: I would have gone, but I felt trapped. But because

255
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Speaker 3: we were in lockdown, Michelle and I had friends and

256
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Speaker 3: I had relatives who are actually working from home, and

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Speaker 3: they wrote in a rotation. They would talk to me

258
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Speaker 3: after I walked the dogs at seven am. And that's

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Speaker 3: how I survived for two or three weeks. Of course,

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Speaker 3: you know, even close friends and family will do that

261
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Speaker 3: for only so long, but it really really helped. I

262
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Speaker 3: knew I would need an abreathment group, and what am

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Speaker 3: I going to do? I can't leave the house a

264
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Speaker 3: breathmen with a widower's group, and I found an organization.

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Speaker 3: It became an online community of called Stitch, and members

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Speaker 3: would host events, including bereavement groups with a widowisch groups.

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Speaker 3: That's how I handled it, and that last did for

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Speaker 3: quite some time, and I got so involved with Stitch

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Speaker 3: and met so many people. I think it was five

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Speaker 3: or six hours a day. I would be involved in

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Speaker 3: various events.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that you called your brother first. I'm curious

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Speaker 2: about your son.

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Speaker 3: My son was living with us at the time. He

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Speaker 3: had his own medical issues. He was recovering and he

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Speaker 3: was living with us. I forgot that.

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Speaker 1: How old was he He was thirty one.

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Speaker 2: How long was he with you after Michelle died?

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Speaker 3: Michelle died September twenty twenty, and he was with me

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Speaker 3: till April. Yeah, we had a fraught relationship. There was

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Speaker 3: a history of that, but I have to say we

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Speaker 3: did not provide the support for each other that we

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Speaker 3: should have.

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Speaker 1: So while you were spending about five hours a day

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Speaker 1: with Stitch at the bereavement.

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Speaker 3: Group, I stopped attending the readment groups after a few weeks.

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Speaker 3: It was very social, there were games and chats and anyway,

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Speaker 3: meeting people from all over Canada, Britain, Australia and all

289
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Speaker 3: over the US.

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Speaker 1: And what was happening with your son? What was he

291
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Speaker 1: doing with his grief since you were living together.

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Speaker 3: My son was uncommunicative before and after Michelle's passing. He

293
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,200
Speaker 3: might have felt the same thing, but I almost felt

294
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Speaker 3: more alone, if it makes sense, with him in the house,

295
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Speaker 3: and that had been for a.

296
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Speaker 2: While because of the disconnect emotionally between the two.

297
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Speaker 3: Right. I had a discussion with my wife. I said,

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Speaker 3: you know that our son and I will be estranged,

299
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Speaker 3: and Michelle said she wasn't surprised. It seemed like she

300
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 3: accepted that that had been the case for a while.

301
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Speaker 3: My son was forced to come home because of his ailments,

302
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,760
Speaker 3: and now that's not the case. We actually have a

303
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,879
Speaker 3: good relationship that we haven't had since he was maybe

304
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,040
Speaker 3: in his early teens. And we talked to each other

305
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:16,920
Speaker 3: at least once every couple of weeks. And he came

306
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 3: here for a family reunion, and I'm going down to

307
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 3: visit in July. Probably that's certainly helping.

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Speaker 1: What changed, do you think maybe in.

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Speaker 3: The wake of Michelle's death, Maybe because we knew we

310
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Speaker 3: just had one another in our nuclear family, it was

311
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,439
Speaker 3: just better. I mean, it was just close. It was

312
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 3: in a relationship for a while through stitch. By the way,

313
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Speaker 3: he met my girlfriend when he came back for the

314
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,320
Speaker 3: last family reunion. That could have gone either way, but

315
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 3: they really clicked. They baked together, they prepared for a

316
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Speaker 3: brunch that I always host every year. I can't tell

317
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Speaker 3: you how wonderful it is to almost be united. And

318
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Speaker 3: I don't know what to attribute it to, but maybe

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Speaker 3: after a delay Michelle's passing.

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Speaker 2: You said you've been highly involved with stitch literally hours

321
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Speaker 2: and hours a day, and then you'll online socializing and

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00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 2: getting support in that way. And you said you even

323
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,280
Speaker 2: met this girlfriend.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, we broke up three months ago after nearly

325
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Speaker 3: two year relationship.

326
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Speaker 2: Who broke up with whom?

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Speaker 3: Ostensibly I did, but my opinion had been a toxic

328
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Speaker 3: relationship that I was grasping onto because I was used

329
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Speaker 3: to being in a relationship, and she would want to

330
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Speaker 3: break off several times, and I would beg my way back.

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Speaker 3: My younger self would not believe that I did. That.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to move up to where she lived, and

333
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Speaker 3: she nicksed that that's what I wanted, and that's what

334
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 3: I wanted because that is what I was.

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Speaker 1: You wanted to be in the same city with her, yes,

336
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,479
Speaker 1: and she did not want that.

337
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,160
Speaker 3: I wanted to be in the same house as Yes.

338
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Speaker 1: And you said she kept trying to break up with you.

339
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 1: Why is that?

340
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Speaker 3: I would be a bad boyfriend. For example, I try

341
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 3: to censor myself, but I would talk too much about

342
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 3: Michelle sometimes and I would be very nostalgic. We saw

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00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 3: each other one week and five. That was a huge

344
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 3: issue for me. This was all to the un end

345
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 3: for me, which was cohabitation. She would yell at something

346
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,479
Speaker 3: I did. One time, I had a meltdown when we

347
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 3: were preparing for one of these reunion brunches, and she

348
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,439
Speaker 3: threatened to leave. She threatened to buy plane tickets. I

349
00:19:54,480 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 3: apologize immediately, but there was no flexibility, there was no

350
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 3: tolerance there.

351
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Speaker 2: So you're essentially grieving the loss of Michelle when you

352
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 2: meet this woman of a stitch and you're within the

353
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 2: first year of grief when you get into a relationship

354
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,159
Speaker 2: with her, which is why you're still processing these things

355
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 2: and still talking about it, because you're still working through

356
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 2: the initial stages at least of grief. And she doesn't

357
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 2: sound like she was supportive of that or sufficiently understanding

358
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 2: of that. That's where you were.

359
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 3: On that point, she would say, but in an accusatory way,

360
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 3: in my opinion, she would say, you simply haven't had

361
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 3: enough time. You haven't stopped grieving. You need to grieve more.

362
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 3: But this was an excuse to put some distance between us.

363
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 2: Yes, but she's also correct in that you were still grieving,

364
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that you needed to have more

365
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: time to grieve outside the relationship. You can do both,

366
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 2: you know, if she were more supportive. You could have

367
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 2: done the grieving while you were with her.

368
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 3: I broke it off because she said I could not

369
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 3: live with her. As abusive as the relationship was, in

370
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 3: my opinion, I would have done anything to move to

371
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 3: where she was in her house right, And that's why

372
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 3: I broke it off.

373
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: So when Michelle dies, the first entity that's there for

374
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,479
Speaker 2: you is Stitch because you spend hours on it, you

375
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 2: socialize on it, you play games on it. You're distracted

376
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 2: from things in a good way when you're on it.

377
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 2: And that was a real bridge for you because your

378
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: son's in the home, but you're not supporting one another,

379
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 2: at least not at that point. And then you meet

380
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 2: your ex girlfriend and your hopes are like, wow, if

381
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: this works out, I can maybe move and we can

382
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 2: live together and I can not be alone. I can

383
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: have that companionship again, I can have that friendship again.

384
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: And then when she says, actually, no, that's not going

385
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 2: to happen because we're not going to live together, that's

386
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: when you realize, well, okay, I've been putting up with

387
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 2: a lot with the hopes of that happening. But if

388
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 2: that's not happening, then really, I don't want to be

389
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 2: here because I feel lonely a lot, and I want

390
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 2: to be with someone full time. And then in your

391
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 2: letter you indicate that part of you thinks maybe you

392
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 2: need to come to terms with being alone or learning

393
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: not to be dependent on a relationship. And that seems

394
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 2: so at odds with what all your experience has been,

395
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 2: which has been like I really need this and much

396
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 2: happier when I have it. Tell us about that? Why

397
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: that thought about maybe I don't need another relationship, I

398
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 2: just need to get used to the loneliness. Where did

399
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: that come from?

400
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 3: I think I got in retrospect, involved myself with my girlfriend,

401
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 3: perhaps for the wrong reasons. It became evident four months

402
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: in that it could turn toxic, and I kept convincing

403
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 3: myself if only I did this, if only I said this,

404
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 3: if only I didn't say this, if only I could

405
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: be this way, and it went on and on and on.

406
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 3: I pinned all my hopes on that relationship. But to

407
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 3: answer your question, I thought that was a problem. That

408
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 3: was a problem that I needed someone who was probably

409
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 3: not a good match for me.

410
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 2: You said you felt you needed someone, and I stayed

411
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: in a very toxic relationship because I needed someone so much.

412
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 2: Maybe that's a problem that I need someone in that way.

413
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 2: And I'm saying to you, it's a problem that you

414
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: stay in a toxic relationship because you're afraid to leave

415
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: it and be alone. It's not a problem that you

416
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 2: fundamentally feel like you need to be with someone.

417
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, to illustrate the problem. Within days of the breakup,

418
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 3: I was on four paid dating sites and already dating

419
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 3: and it got me out of the house five seven

420
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 3: dates dates a week, sometimes to a day.

421
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: That's you in project manager mode, you know, starting to

422
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 2: hit all the bases and do this and get onto it.

423
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 2: You're a good project manager, so you don't just going

424
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: to do one app and wait for things to happen,

425
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: because that can take a long time. It's competency to

426
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 2: get yourself a all for I'm still not sure I

427
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: see where the problem is. You're saying, well, I did

428
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 2: it with a bit too much desperation, perhaps a bit

429
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: too much intensity.

430
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: Perhaps all right, the problem is that I wasn't comfortable

431
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 3: being by myself at home. I'm not comfortable being with myself.

432
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 3: That is the problem. I always have to be doing

433
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 3: something outside the home always.

434
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: It's interesting you went into project management mode during Michelle

435
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: being transported and then she had to go into hospice,

436
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: and then you break up with this girlfriend because she

437
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: doesn't want you to cohabitate with her and move there,

438
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: and immediately you're on these other dating sites. So you're

439
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: doing all the project management stuff. But when you do that,

440
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: what happens is it takes you away from your feelings.

441
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 1: It takes up all of the real estate in your mind,

442
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: so there's no room for you to feel the feelings.

443
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: And so you then say, Okay, the problem is I

444
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: can't be alone. But I think the problem is you

445
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:38,239
Speaker 1: can't seem to grieve. And because when you're alone, that

446
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: is when the grief will come up. When you're not

447
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: in busy mode, that's when the loss is present. So

448
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: you'll do anything to avoid feeling those feelings. So I

449
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: think we have two separate things that you're conflating. You're saying,

450
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: I think it's a problem that I want to be

451
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: with someone. That's not a problem. That's natural that you

452
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: would want to be with someone. The problem is that

453
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: you won't allow yourself to grieve.

454
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: I don't know how to do that. I don't think

455
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 3: I properly because I didn't know how grieve the loss

456
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 3: of Michelle or the loss of this relationship. Friends of

457
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 3: mine would say, don't date right away, grieve the loss.

458
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 3: I said, what does that look like? Well, I'm in

459
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: another relationship. After twenty eight first dates and three second dates.

460
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 3: I found someone. It's a good thing, yes, but I'm

461
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 3: kind of second guessing myself. She's wonderful. But if it

462
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 3: was too fast and too much, I mean, I'm there

463
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: half the week, she lives an hour away.

464
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: I want to go back to what he said just

465
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 2: a minute earlier. Yeah, he said, what does it look

466
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: like to grieve? I don't know what that looks like.

467
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: I don't write because you do keep yourself busy in

468
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: order to not feel it. I think you feel it

469
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: when you're home, because, as Laurie said, when you're not

470
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: busy is when your mind has time to actually start

471
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: dealing with the loss of Michelle. And I'm sure that

472
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:10,239
Speaker 2: that makes you feel incredibly sad when you're home. How

473
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: much do you think about Michelle? When you think about her?

474
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: Do you try and get busy or distract yourself? Do

475
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: you sit with those feelings? Do you cry? Do you

476
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 2: talk to her? Do you memorialize her in some way.

477
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: Do you sit where you used to sit in the

478
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: morning and think of her in the mornings? How and

479
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: when is she occupying your thoughts?

480
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: I'd see something in the house, of course, it was

481
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: our house that would remind me about Michelle. It's only

482
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 3: pleasant feelings.

483
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: So you don't feel sad in that moment when you're

484
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 2: thinking of her. You're not thinking of missing her. You're

485
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: not feeling the loss of her. You're just having a

486
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: nostalgic moment and it feels pleasant. There's no sadness, less

487
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: and less.

488
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 3: And tell the truth, I think it's more not wanting

489
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 3: to be here alone, not in a relationship, more than

490
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 3: grieving for my wife. At this point two and a

491
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 3: half years later.

492
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's hard to tell how much is

493
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: not wanting to be alone and how much is missing Michelle,

494
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: because it sounds like you really never did the grieving.

495
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: You never let yourself have the time to just feel

496
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: whatever you feel missing this person that was integrated in

497
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: every way into your life for the last forty years.

498
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: So there's no one way, there's no right way, there's

499
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: no kind of formula, there's no way you have to

500
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: feel or should feel. It's just that I don't think

501
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: you've felt in whatever way that would be for you,

502
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: and I think that that's why you keep second guessing.

503
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: That's why you start to say, I'm not sure what

504
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: I'm doing or about this current relationship. But I think

505
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: that you're going to need to feel some of those

506
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: feelings that you've been blocking so that you can feel

507
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: a little bit more free. And that doesn't mean that

508
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: you moved on. We say with grief, you move forward,

509
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: but that person that you've lost is always there with

510
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: you in some way, it's integrated into this new normal

511
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: for you. And I just don't think you can integrate

512
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: that until you've felt the feelings. When you say I

513
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: have these pleasant memories, I imagine that it feels good because

514
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: they were pleasant, but also sad because she's not there

515
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: to have those two hour breakfasts with, and she's not

516
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: there to share your life with and to read the

517
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: paper with and to have those conversations with that you

518
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: loved having with her. Even right now, as we're talking

519
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: and you're choking up a little bit, that tells us

520
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: that the feelings are there. What's it like to just

521
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: sit here with us right now and to feel a

522
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: little bit of that choking up that sadness.

523
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm feeling sad now. And of course I kind

524
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: of thought that my grieving was over after some period

525
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: of time and I got more involved with other things.

526
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: And of course, as I described to you, at first,

527
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: it was horrible, and I relied on other people and

528
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: we had breakfast together every morning. We spend a retirement

529
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: that I would think would be difficult was the best thing.

530
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: What you just said was so important that you imagine

531
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: retirement with each other. Yeah, And it turned out that

532
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: retirement you said was the best thing, but you didn't

533
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: get to have that because she died so soon. Yes,

534
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: and so what's it like to sit with that that loss?

535
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: So I see it all over your face, But I

536
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: don't know if you're connecting with the sadness.

537
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: What I could say about that is I'm looking for

538
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 3: that again and someone else. That's how it feels.

539
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: I think that's what you do with the sadness you

540
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: think of Michelle, A nostalgic feeling comes up. It's the

541
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: morning you think of something. There's an automatic sadness that

542
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: goes with that because she's not here. And I think

543
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: when you start to feel it, you have this reflexive, quick,

544
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: instinctive response to okay, project, manage, do something, and then

545
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: you immediately go to I need to find that, so

546
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: let me do twenty eight dates in twenty eight days.

547
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: You do not let the sadness that's inside similar even

548
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: a little bit. You distract yourself away from it. And

549
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: what Laurie and I are saying is that if you

550
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: weren't in a rush to convert the nostalgic feeling or

551
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 2: the lonely feeling or the missing her feeling into let

552
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: me find a replication, we find a distraction, then you

553
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: would just have to sit with a loss, and that's

554
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: where the grieving happens. And that's what you're trying to

555
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: run away from. Essentially all the time.

556
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: I am running away from that, which in my mind,

557
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: I don't know how to do with it. I don't

558
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 3: know what to do, how to use my time alone

559
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: for that purpose.

560
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: When you have the nostalgic memory of Michelle, you can

561
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: literally pause and take a deep breath and try and

562
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: locate where that feeling is in your body. If any

563
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: sadness comes up, where you're feeling it in your stomach

564
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: and your throat and your chest and your shoulders, and

565
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: you can first identify where that's coming from physically, and

566
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: then you can say something to Michelle about it. You

567
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: can say, wow, I really miss you, I really miss

568
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: some morning conversations. I really wish you were here. You

569
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: can talk to her, You can get in touch with

570
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: that feeling and to be able to hold on to

571
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: it a little longer, because I think automatically it kind

572
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: of get snatched away from you. But you can intentionally

573
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: try and hold onto it and try and talk to

574
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: her and try and address it.

575
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 4: Makes sense. It would take some practice. I would think, well,

576
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 4: what if you tried that now for a moment. I

577
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 4: don't know if you're close to that breakfast area, but

578
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 4: if you just look around, and if you just try

579
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 4: and evoke a memory of her nostalgic or otherwise, and

580
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: maybe if she were here, if she were able to

581
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 4: listen in some way, what would you say to her

582
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 4: right now?

583
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: I would probably talk the way we talked at breakfast.

584
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: Do it now? Say it to her.

585
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 3: I'm looking at a picture that was handed down from

586
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: her folks. So you know, Michelle, it reminds me so

587
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 3: much of your parents. And at first it wasn't my style.

588
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 3: It's very kind of Greek classic, but I've grown to

589
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: love it because your parents and now because of you.

590
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 3: I remember how much you loved it, and eventually I

591
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: did too. I've see so many things in the house

592
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 3: that were so important to you. You decorated the house,

593
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: and they've become mine. It's a little sad because because

594
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 3: they've become mine alone and not yours, but they also

595
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 3: you evoke happy, happy memories, So I'm glad about that.

596
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: You know, you started saying that, and then you start

597
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: choking up when you started saying they were yours, and

598
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: then you love them, so I love them, but they

599
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: were yours, and now they've become mine because you're starting

600
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: to deal with the fact that she's not here, and

601
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: then you choke up, and then you quickly say, but

602
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: happy memories too, to kind of get away from that.

603
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 3: Right, But if you see, just put the break.

604
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: In and just it's okay to stay with choked up.

605
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 2: It's okay to stay with you now their mind because

606
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 2: you're not here and I wish you were here. It's

607
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: okay to keep going there because that's how the grieving works.

608
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: Grieving means that you are getting your mind and your

609
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: body and your brain adapted to this loss, adapted to

610
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: the fact that it's not there. You keep running away

611
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: from it. So you do have to stay there and

612
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: say these kinds of things and continue that dialogue with her.

613
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: And I can do that. I've never thought about doing that,

614
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 3: but talking out loud. I would want to do it

615
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 3: out loud, like I'm.

616
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 2: Doing with you, right, But you wanted to run away

617
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 2: from it pretty quickly.

618
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 3: That's true. I need to focus and stay with it.

619
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm thinking too, Richard, that you didn't have the chance

620
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: to say goodbye to Michelle. Yeah, And I wonder if

621
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: when you're sitting at breakfast you ever think about what

622
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: you would have said to her, or what if she

623
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: were sitting there with you you'd like to say to her.

624
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 3: Oh, I've thought about that.

625
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: Oh, can you talk to her about that right now?

626
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm sorry that we had a couple of years

627
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 3: of retirement together and it was so wonderful and we

628
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 3: were really rediscovering what was so great about our marriage.

629
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 3: And I'm you know, I'm sorry I didn't I didn't

630
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: really talk about that. That's one thing I'd like to

631
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: talk to you about. And how it was cut short unfairly,

632
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: but life is unfair.

633
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: Do you see where you went with that again? To

634
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: the It's almost like the happy place of well, it's unfair,

635
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: but hey, you know life is unfair. So what can

636
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: you do?

637
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: Not allowing myself to grieve, to get emotional, to move

638
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 3: away from it? Yeah, I understand.

639
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: Can you tell Michelle what it was like not to

640
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: be with her when she died? Is there a picture

641
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: of her that you can look at as you're saying.

642
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: This, Yeah, actually, I.

643
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: See you looking there, So go ahead and talk to

644
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 1: her and tell her.

645
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 3: Well, the last time I saw you, you were worried

646
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 3: about the MRI, and that was my last conversation with you.

647
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: Was trying to calm you and give you some comfort,

648
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 3: which is good, but it wasn't enough. I didn't want

649
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 3: that to be our last conversation. I still thought i'd

650
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 3: have time. I didn't know you would die. Even after

651
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 3: I was told that I had to arrange for hospice care,

652
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 3: I thought we'll continue to have our time together and

653
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 3: maybe together we could prepare for the end. And there

654
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 3: was no preparation.

655
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: You're talking more about sort of what happened and what

656
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: transpired then what it feels like. Is there a part

657
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: of you it wishes you could have been there with

658
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: her and held her hand as she was dying. Is

659
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: there a part of you that wishes that you could

660
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: have given her more support than the comfort you gave

661
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: her around the MRI. Not that you could have, but

662
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: can you tell Michelle what the experience was like for

663
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: you of not being able to be there for her,

664
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: and then not being able to be there when she

665
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: actually died, And to have this unfinished conversation that if

666
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: you'd known that you only had twelve hours with her,

667
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: what would you have wanted to have said, to connect

668
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: with her, to say goodbye to her? Can you talk

669
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: to her about that.

670
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: Michelle, even if you couldn't hear me, and hopefully you could,

671
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 3: I wanted to hold your hand and talk about are

672
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 3: forty years together? And or anniversary that was coming up.

673
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 3: We had planned to have a big adniversary and even

674
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 3: though it was difficult for you to get away to

675
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 3: travel the world anymore, we were planning something more modest

676
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 3: that you could be comfortable doing. And I wish I

677
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: got to do that. And if I was in the

678
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 3: hospital with you, I would have talked about those plans,

679
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 3: giving you something and me something to look forward to.

680
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 3: That's what I wanted to do, even if we both

681
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: expected the worst. I want to hold your hand and

682
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 3: be nostalgic and talk about each other, our relationship with

683
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: each other, and how it progressed and how good it became,

684
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: and about the people we loved in common.

685
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: You were saying that you would want to give her

686
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: something to look forward to, But if you both knew

687
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: that she was not going to make it, what do

688
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: you think you would have wanted to say to her

689
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: about how important she was to you? Can you tell

690
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: her that right now?

691
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean you changed my life. You made my

692
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 3: life wonderful. You were my best friend in additions being married,

693
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 3: and I appreciated you every day. And I appreciated that

694
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 3: you retained your sense of humor even when it was

695
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 3: difficult to move or difficult to breathe, and that you

696
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 3: were brave. You were frustrated about restrictions, but underneath it

697
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: you maintained your sense of humor and the sense that

698
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: living was fun and you had a great life lived.

699
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: Can you tell her, if she could hear you now,

700
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: what this loss has been like for you, And can

701
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: you really stick to your feelings as opposed to the

702
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: logistics of it.

703
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 3: Not your fault, of course, but I feel a sense

704
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 3: of abandonment and a real sense of loss. I feel

705
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 3: aimless and purposelessness because so much of my purpose and

706
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: yours is to be there with one another. And I

707
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: couldn't continue to enhance your life and to feel your

708
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 3: love and for you to feel my love. That's what

709
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 3: I miss.

710
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 2: I think that this is an example, Richard, of the

711
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 2: kind of thinking and the kind of feeling that you

712
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: need to do. Degree we both had to bring you

713
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: back to stay with a feeling, don't go to logistics,

714
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: don't go to your head, stay with your heart, stay

715
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: with the feeling. I think it's very difficult for you

716
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: to get in touch with how you're feeling, let alone articulated.

717
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: And you can see every time you start choking up,

718
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: you take a breath, and then instead of staying with

719
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: the feeling, you say something more casual that kind of

720
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: bumps it out into your head, or like, well, you

721
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 2: know you can't have everything, or you say something that

722
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 2: kind of takes you out of the feeling zone. And

723
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: that's the practice that you need.

724
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 3: And that will make me less avoidant less anxious to

725
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 3: leave the house at every moment.

726
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: You're anxious to leave the house because you don't want

727
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: to feel this. You're anxious to leave the house because

728
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: it feels to you like if I stay here, I'm

729
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 2: just going to be so sad. But you mentioned depression

730
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: in your letter, and there's a difference between depression and grief.

731
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: And you're grieving because it's really specific. You are able

732
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 2: to enjoy certain activities and you're even seeking them out

733
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: for the distraction of them. A depressed person wouldn't enjoy

734
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: those activities, but a grieving person would because those activities

735
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: are a distraction from the grief. And I think you

736
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: need to reclassify in your head that when I'm feeling sad,

737
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: it's grief, it's not depression. Depression sounds like something you

738
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: should do something about. Grief is not something you do

739
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: something about. You learn to tolerate the loss, you learn

740
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: to sit with it. You're afraid to cry. The minute

741
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: you start choking up, your breathing changes, your mouth clinches,

742
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: as if like let those tears through kind of thing,

743
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 2: and again it prevents you from actually going to that place.

744
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: That's true. I mean I never thought it in those terms.

745
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: I thought I was depressed about being alone for the

746
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: first time in my life. By the way, I always

747
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 3: lived with somebody, college, roommates, whatever. And I thought the

748
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: depression I called it depression, was simply from being alone

749
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 3: and not with someone, which I was trying to to remedy.

750
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: I didn't think of it as grief.

751
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: You were trying to remedy that by looking for a substitute,

752
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: looking for that person that you can live with, because

753
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 2: you don't want to be alone, because you've always been

754
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: with someone all your life, and in the first six

755
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: months after she died, your son was with you, ambivalent

756
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: as that might have been, and then soon after that

757
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: you had a relationships. At least once every five weeks,

758
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: you were with someone. But it's this need to not

759
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: be alone, and you're out there looking intensely for a

760
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: girlfriend that can become a serious relationship super quick so

761
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: that you don't have to be alone. And I want

762
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: to suggest that you're not going to find a substitute

763
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 2: for Michelle who will make you feel the way Michelle did,

764
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: who you can spend the mornings with in that way.

765
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: Who are youre going to have the sympatico about everything,

766
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: an alliance that was built over forty years, even if

767
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: the chemistry was there from the beginning.

768
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 3: Well, I don't have forty years left if.

769
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 2: You don't, but I'm suggesting that you need to find

770
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: something that's different. We said, it's not bad to want

771
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: to be with someone, but you do have to learn

772
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: how to be alone a little bit. You do have

773
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: to learn to tolerate that and to deal with the

774
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: grieving when you're alone, because if you don't, you'll really

775
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: indulge this impulse to just find someone else who will

776
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: be with you full time, even if the relationship's abusive.

777
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 2: You'll tolerate it for that prospect because part of you

778
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: feel can just be with someone, I'll feel whole again,

779
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: and you won't. In much the same way that it

780
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 2: almost felt worse to have your son with you after

781
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 2: Michelle died because of the emotional disconnect. You felt It's like,

782
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: I'm with someone, but I'm not feeling that closeness, so

783
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 2: it feels bad. It might feel similar if you're with

784
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: the wrong person full time. So part of you needing

785
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: to learn how to be alone is to not rush

786
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: into something to quickly put a patch over the grief

787
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: that you don't have to fully sit with it because

788
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: that won't look.

789
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did rush, but again, twenty eight first dates,

790
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 3: So I didn't jump at the first.

791
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: Twenty eight first dates in a short amount of time

792
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: is not the definition of not rushing.

793
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

794
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: I also don't know if you noticed this, but it

795
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: sounds like the only time that you were really talking

796
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: about Michelle was when you were with the other girlfriend.

797
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: So you wouldn't think about her when you were alone

798
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: because it was too painful, but you would talk about

799
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 1: her because you had the company of another person. Now,

800
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 1: the girlfriend didn't like it, and she wasn't very compassionate

801
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: about it, understandably, Yeah, well, but not so understandably. I mean,

802
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: you just lost your wife of forty years. I would

803
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: think that she would have some understanding that you were grieving.

804
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that it was hard for you to

805
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: tolerate the feelings around Michelle when you're alone, but you

806
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: can tolerate them when you're talking to someone else. So

807
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: you would talk about Michelle with the ex girlfriend who

808
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: was at the time, and.

809
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 3: By the way, with other friends, right, yeah, right, it

810
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 3: would also Yeah, I mean, my guy friends were always

811
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 3: part of couples. Now, maybe through the meetups and the

812
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: pickle ball, I have some very close guy friends, just

813
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 3: guy friends, which I haven't had in years and years.

814
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 3: When I talked to my girlfriend about Michelle and these

815
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 3: friends about Michelle, it wouldn't be mounting my feelings, certainly,

816
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 3: it would be nostalgia. It would be stories. I often

817
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 3: told my ex girlfriend when she complained about this, I said,

818
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 3: this was my life for forty years, and I am

819
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: my stories. Yes, And I started to just say I

820
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 3: did this, I experienced this, I like this, and excised

821
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 3: the word we. I found I had to do that,

822
00:47:58,920 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: but not with my friends.

823
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: But even knowing that she could not tolerate that you

824
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: have a history which everyone comes with, and that this

825
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 1: history shaped you and as part of you and you're

826
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: sharing your experience with her, you still wanted to live

827
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: with her, even though she couldn't tolerate that. And I

828
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: think that that's a very important thing to consider, that

829
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 1: being in your grief was so intolerable that you would

830
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: put yourself in a different kind of intolerable situation.

831
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 3: I just recall what you said before about the difference

832
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 3: you said not moving on moving forward. I was focusing

833
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 3: on moving on, and I thought, yes, I shouldn't talk

834
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 3: about my wife in front of my girlfriend as often

835
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 3: as I do in my head. I was moving on,

836
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 3: not forward by including my marriage my past experience.

837
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: I'm curious in the first few months of ufter she passed,

838
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: when he's said friends were doing this rotational thing. Were

839
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 2: you talking about your feelings or were you just talking

840
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 2: about stories.

841
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 3: I was talking about my feelings. I cried, and not

842
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 3: just at the stories in my nostalgia. I would talk

843
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 3: about my feelings. It was a matter of weeks, and

844
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 3: then I moved on to STITCH and I talked about

845
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 3: my feelings and everyone did.

846
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 2: Because that's a bereavement group. But you were on it

847
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: just for a few weeks. Why just for a few weeks.

848
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 3: I don't know if I was uncomfortable or I think

849
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 3: it was because I knew everyone's what everyone was saying,

850
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 3: and there was a lot of repetition, and I felt

851
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 3: I was doing the same thing. So again, moving on.

852
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: So you worried that you were maybe boring.

853
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 3: And I felt they were boring me. I thought, it's

854
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 3: run its course, and these groups didn't start with me.

855
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 3: I joined a group. So after a few weeks. I'm thinking,

856
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 3: not only have I heard the same thing, which of

857
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 3: course was very helpful to share for a couple of weeks,

858
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 3: but that they've been doing this for I don't know

859
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 3: how long.

860
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 1: You sound a little bit like your ex girlfriend that

861
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: you had this expectation. Why are they still talking about this?

862
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: Shouldn't they have moved on by now? They're funny, And

863
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 1: I think that's because you were hoping that would happen

864
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: for you, that you just didn't want to feel this

865
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: and you just wanted to move on as quickly as

866
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: possible without thinking that this is how they're moving again,

867
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: the difference between moving on and moving forward. This is

868
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: how they're moving forward. This is serving a purpose so

869
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: that they can do the work of grief and move

870
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: forward in their lives. But for you, it was I

871
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 1: have to cut all this off, and that will show

872
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: that I am done and I'm ready and I'm going

873
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: to find my next relationship and that's what it's going

874
00:50:58,800 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: to look like.

875
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would check in on occasion and it

876
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 3: was the same people, and I thought, Okay, been there,

877
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 3: done that, I've gotten everything I could get out of it,

878
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 3: and I'm moving on to the chats in the games.

879
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 2: Richard, Let's be clear that repetition is essential when you're grieving.

880
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:23,760
Speaker 2: Any emotional processing is really done by repetition. Our minds,

881
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 2: our brain gets things really quickly. Our emotions take a

882
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 2: long time to catch up to the understanding that our

883
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 2: mind has. We can wrap our mind around the fact

884
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 2: that someone's gone much more quickly than we can our feelings.

885
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 2: And repetition is necessary. It's part of the grieving process

886
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: because you're feeling it again, but maybe slightly differently this time.

887
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,760
Speaker 2: It's challenging, it's difficult because it's sad and it's painful.

888
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 2: But by going over it again and again, you're getting

889
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 2: your body and your mind and your heart especially adapted

890
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 2: to a new reality. That switch doesn't happen on a time.

891
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: You really have to massage it in and repeat it.

892
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: If you've ever had the massage but strokes that repeated

893
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: numerous times, you don't just do it once, because even

894
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 2: the muscle needs the repetition to loosen up and to

895
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 2: be able to unclinch.

896
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, and perhaps these other members of the group they

897
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 3: understood that, and I didn't. I thought they were rehashing

898
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 3: in my mind, and I understand what you're saying.

899
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: That's what your girlfriend didn't understand. She could not understand

900
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: why you were still talking about Michelle even though you

901
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: had just lost her.

902
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. Someone told me you don't want

903
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 3: your deceased spouse to be the third person in a relationship,

904
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 3: which resonated with me.

905
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: There's a difference between being the third person in a

906
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: relationship and telling your girlfriend something about you, And you

907
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: were telling her something about you and your experiences and

908
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: your history and your past. That's all about the getting

909
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: to know you. It's not like you just showed up

910
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: as this person who didn't have the last forty years.

911
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: It's very possible that five years down the road, ten

912
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: years down the road, you'll have her thought about Michelle,

913
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: and when you've grieved properly, when you think about that thought,

914
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 2: and you'll turn to your girlfriend at that time, even

915
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: if it's in ten years time to tell her how

916
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: you're feeling. You will get choked up, you will get sad,

917
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: because that ache doesn't disappear, it doesn't go away. It's

918
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 2: appropriate when it comes to feel teary, to feel sad.

919
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with it. That's what moving forward means

920
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: you move forward with the pain rather than moving on

921
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 2: from the pain. And so in your understanding of grief,

922
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 2: if you're talking about your feelings, it should be legit

923
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 2: to bring it up if you feel it, because you'll

924
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: probably feel it even for years to come. You kind

925
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: of touch that live wire and suddenly, oh, that thing

926
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 2: comes up, and there's someone there to here and to

927
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: support and to give you a hug like I hope

928
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 2: you would do with you with somebody who's a widow.

929
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, this new girlfriend, it's only been a couple of months.

930
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: Like I said, we moved very fast, probably too fast,

931
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 3: but she seems more receptive. It's early days, and I

932
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 3: can't say that I shared my feelings about Michelle's death,

933
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 3: but I've certainly referred to her.

934
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 2: Do you refer to your sadness?

935
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 3: No?

936
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 2: Why not?

937
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 3: Well, she's a wonderful woman, married forty years and divorced,

938
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 3: and I don't want to burden her two months.

939
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 2: In with a feeling.

940
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 3: Wouldn't be a burden with feelings? Yeah, with your feelings,

941
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: with those feelings.

942
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 2: Maybe with any feelings that are challenging.

943
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 3: That's interesting that you say that, because you know we're

944
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 3: spending half the week already with each other. But I

945
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 3: was thinking this afternoon when I go down there, I

946
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 3: want to say, one thing I love about you is

947
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: your sunny disposition. But I want you to know the

948
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 3: only thing you've talked about that where you've shared your

949
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 3: feelings is about your ex and the acrimony and the

950
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 3: difficult divorce. But if you want to share other difficult

951
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 3: things or talk about our relationship in me maybe most importantly.

952
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: And it's so funny because that's what I plan to

953
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 3: tell her this weekend.

954
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 2: That wasn't about your feelings, it was about hers. And

955
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is that that's what you run away from.

956
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe that. I wanted to tell her that

957
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 3: to see how receptive she would be, to see if,

958
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 3: in turn, she said, and you could tell me anything.

959
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: I wonder what would happen if you were just direct

960
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: with her and said, I'm really loving getting to know you.

961
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: And I also haven't really done the grieving that I

962
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: need to do for Michelle. I'm excited about getting into

963
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 1: a new relationship, and I want to be able to

964
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: talk about all of my feelings, including the feelings that

965
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: I have about Michelle that still come up that I'm

966
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: still dealing with I had a wonderful marriage, and I'm

967
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: feeling that loss at times, and I want to be

968
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: able not to edit myself so that if we're in

969
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: an elevator and they're playing a song and it reminds

970
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,919
Speaker 1: me of Michelle and I get sad, that I can

971
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: say something about that or a memory comes up, or

972
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm just having a hard day, because that will happen

973
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: in addition to the fun that we're having, because I

974
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: want both that I don't have to hide that part

975
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 1: of myself with you, and I'm enjoying this so much

976
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: with you, and I just wanted to get that out

977
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: there and let you know that this is something I'd

978
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,240
Speaker 1: like to be able to be open with you about.

979
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: How does that feel for you?

980
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 3: It does? And I think I said it. I was

981
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 3: going to talk about that I would welcome this girlfriend

982
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 3: to share her feelings so that she in turn.

983
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: But it was a test. It was kind of a

984
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: it was it was like a trial balloon that you

985
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: were It's.

986
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 3: A test because we've done nothing like that. We've done

987
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 3: nothing like that.

988
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: It's right, it's fun.

989
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 3: It's not necessarily a problem. You know, at this point

990
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 3: in a relationship.

991
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 2: It is a problem. It is, actually, Richard, because we're

992
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,439
Speaker 2: saying you have to move forward with grief. That means

993
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 2: the grief will be with you. It's a part of you,

994
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 2: forty years of your life. You can't put an X

995
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: on it. These feelings are given the example, in ten years,

996
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 2: they might come up. In twenty years, they'll still come up.

997
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 3: Right, Well, I said it wasn't a problem. It's not

998
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 3: a problem because it's so early.

999
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: Relationships, Richard, are such that you said, up a dynamic

1000
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: early on in the relationship. You set up the pattern,

1001
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: You set up an unspoken contract of what this relationship

1002
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: is going to be about and what it's not going

1003
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 2: to be about. And your contract right now is misleading.

1004
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 2: You are sitting with all these feelings. There is grieving

1005
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 2: to be done yet here. So that will absolutely be

1006
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 2: a significant part of your experience going forward. And she

1007
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 2: doesn't know anything about it and your inclination of I'll

1008
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: test her and I'll tell her that I'm okay with

1009
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 2: her feelings, and therefore if she can do that, then

1010
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 2: I'll feel okay sharing mine. And a much better way

1011
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 2: to do that is to just share yours. Because it's

1012
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 2: essential that the other person that you're with can hear

1013
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 2: the grief, whether it comes up now or at any.

1014
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: Time, and having this conversation and bringing your whole self

1015
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: into the relationship will help you not make her another

1016
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: drug that numbs you from the pain of the grief,

1017
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: because that's what happens. You're going into these relationships and

1018
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: all of these dates because you're putting the needle in.

1019
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: I don't have to feel. But if you really want

1020
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 1: this relationship to be sustainable, you're going to have to

1021
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: bring your whole self to it. And this way, she's

1022
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,919
Speaker 1: not the drug that distracts you from Michelle. You're getting

1023
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 1: to know her, she's getting to know you. You're enjoying

1024
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: each other. That's great, but you're also being real with

1025
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: each other, and that's going to be more sustaining because

1026
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: what you and Michelle had was being real with each other,

1027
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: and that's something you're going to want in a relationship

1028
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: going forward.

1029
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and what guys said about a dynamic being established

1030
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,439
Speaker 3: as we speak, I had never thought about it that way.

1031
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 3: I'd been thinking, well, wait, it's too early weight, but

1032
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 3: the pattern may have been established before.

1033
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 2: But relationship dynamics I like cement much easier to mold

1034
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 2: when it's sweat, much harder when it's dry, and like cement,

1035
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: it dries quick. So two months in is a lot

1036
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,479
Speaker 2: if you're bereaved widower who's not talking about his grief at.

1037
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: All, and I have to move from stories which i've

1038
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 3: shared to feelings to feelings.

1039
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so, Richard, we have some advice for you

1040
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: to try out this week. And the first thing is

1041
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: we would like you to join a bereavement group. We

1042
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: know that you felt it was a little repetitive the

1043
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: last time you were there, but as we talked about,

1044
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: this is the nature of grieving, and we'd like you

1045
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: to go in person to a group. And since you're

1046
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: really good at project management, we're pretty sure you could

1047
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: find one this week. And even if the other people

1048
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 1: are closer to the loss than you are in terms

1049
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: of time, you're still kind of a nubie at this

1050
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: because you haven't really done much by way of grieving.

1051
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: You've been pretty blocked for the last couple of years.

1052
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: So we'd like you to say to the group when

1053
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: you go there, my wife died several years ago, but

1054
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 1: I'm kind of new to this because I haven't really

1055
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: done the work, and I'm here to really process this loss,

1056
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: and we want you to see what that's like with

1057
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: this new perspective and understanding of grieving that we've talked

1058
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: about today.

1059
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 2: Okay, here's the second thing. Michelle is all over the

1060
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 2: home that you're in. She's all over the place, but

1061
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 2: you don't really talk to her enough. And so the

1062
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 2: other thing we'd like you to do is at times

1063
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 2: when you're alone at home, would like you to have

1064
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 2: breakfast with Michelle ten fifteen minutes short, but in that time,

1065
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 2: would like you to sit where you usually sit and

1066
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 2: have what you usually had, and would like you to

1067
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 2: talk to her and say something like, you know, I

1068
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 2: haven't done a great job of processing this and I

1069
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 2: really miss you, but I haven't really told you what

1070
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 2: it's been like to be without you, and I want

1071
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 2: to tell you, and I'm going to start right at

1072
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 2: the beginning what it was like that night that you died.

1073
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 2: And you have to do it all at once, you know,

1074
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 2: every day for a little bit, but share just one thing,

1075
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 2: not a story, a feeling about what it was like.

1076
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: Try and really stay with a feeling. And if you

1077
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 2: feel yourself getting choked up, remember those are your feelings,

1078
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 2: embrace them. It's okay, it's painful, but you'll stop crying. Crying,

1079
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 2: by the way, has numerous positive psychological functions like release

1080
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 2: and catharsis. It's a very useful physiological mechanism. So don't

1081
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 2: be reluctant to experience tears if that's what happens. But

1082
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 2: every morning that you're home by yourself, some breakfast with

1083
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: Michelle where you try and bring her up to speed.

1084
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 2: You have three years, so there's got to be stuffed

1085
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 2: there just telling her what this was like for you,

1086
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 2: in the moments that you miss her, in the moments

1087
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 2: that you think of her, in the moments that you

1088
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 2: wish she was there, that you wish you had more

1089
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 2: time in retirement with her, all those things. One meaningful

1090
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 2: feeling a day, and you'll know it's meaningful because when

1091
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 2: we help keep you on it, you got choked up

1092
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 2: each time. If you're not getting choked up, you're going

1093
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: to stories try and bring usself back to the emotion

1094
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 2: and just express it and the feeling will come.

1095
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: And it's short because we know that it's hard to

1096
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: go into those places. So these aren't the two hour

1097
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: breakfasts that you used to have with her. These are

1098
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 1: ten minutes.

1099
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I can do that.

1100
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 1: And the last thing is we would like you to

1101
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: talk to the woman that you're sing now say to her.

1102
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: I just want to reassure you that whatever grieving I'm

1103
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,919
Speaker 1: doing for Michelle doesn't stop me from developing feelings for you,

1104
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 1: because I am and I'm really enjoying this. But we've

1105
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: spent the past two months where, unbeknownst to you, I've

1106
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: been holding back. I want to be able for both

1107
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 1: of us to bring our whole selves to this relationship.

1108
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: And because I'm still grieving and I haven't really done

1109
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: the work of grief, so it's a little bit fresher

1110
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: for me. I want to be able to talk about

1111
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: how I'm feeling when the grief comes up, because I

1112
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: think that that will bring us even closer. We want

1113
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: you to ask her, how does that feel to you?

1114
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 2: You might even say something like because there are moments

1115
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 2: in which I feel so sad and I don't want

1116
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 2: to have to hide those from you. When it would

1117
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 2: feel actually really good, and then you've put your arms

1118
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 2: around me, you take my hand, that would feel really good.

1119
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 2: I would like to be able to do that, and

1120
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 2: I'll obviously be happy if you needed that as well.

1121
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 3: And I understand now why there's also some urgency.

1122
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: To this, yes, because of the cement.

1123
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,959
Speaker 3: Drying right, good metaphor, So, how.

1124
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:17,959
Speaker 1: Does all that sound for you to try this week?

1125
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 3: Good? Thank you so much, oh our.

1126
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:22,439
Speaker 1: Pleasure, and we look forward to hearing how it all goes.

1127
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 2: I will do that me.

1128
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 3: Too, great, looking forward to performing these exercises. Wonderful, thank you.

1129
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 2: It's really interesting to me because so many people don't

1130
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 2: know how to grieve. They literally ask, okay, but how

1131
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 2: do I do that? Even if I want to do that,

1132
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how. They think the best thing to

1133
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 2: do is just numb. So if I'm not sad, I'm processing. No,

1134
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 2: processing is sad. It is painful. You can't run away

1135
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 2: or escape that. And I really hope that he got

1136
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 2: that message that yes, it's an active, intentional process.

1137
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: I think he was aware that he was using distraction,

1138
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 1: but I think his solution for that was how do

1139
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: I learn how to be alone versus how do I

1140
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: learn how to grieve when the pain comes up? And

1141
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 1: so I'll be interested to see what he does this

1142
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: week with the exercises that we gave him to help

1143
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: him get more on track with that.

1144
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 2: Micho.

1145
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: You're listening to dear Therapists. We'll be back after a

1146
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: short break.

1147
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 2: So, Laurie, we heard back from Richard, and I'm very

1148
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 2: curious to see how he did this week with all

1149
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 2: those challenging emotional assignments we gave him.

1150
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 3: Hi, Guy and Laurie, this is Richard. I just wanted

1151
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 3: to get back to you to let you know about

1152
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 3: my experiences completing the exercises you assigned. One of them

1153
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 3: was to have breakfast with Michelle, as I did for years,

1154
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 3: and you wanted me to talk to her about what

1155
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 3: it's been like to be without her and to express

1156
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 3: my feelings to her, and you wanted to know how

1157
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 3: I felt doing that. Well. The first couple of days,

1158
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 3: I felt very self conscious and uncomfortable. Eventually I broke

1159
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 3: through that and I felt mostly despair is how I

1160
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 3: would describe it, and I got very emotional once I cried.

1161
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,959
Speaker 3: The next phase I would call it was I felt

1162
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 3: an intimacy again with Michelle and the comfort that would

1163
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 3: alternate with despair, but I felt I was making progress.

1164
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 3: The next assignment was to talk to my girlfriend and

1165
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 3: to explain that I may have cut short the process

1166
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 3: of grieving for Michelle, and to reassure my girlfriend that

1167
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 3: continuing my grieving would not affect our relationship. I told

1168
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 3: her that I want to be able to talk to

1169
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 3: her about my grieving, which I believe would bring us closer,

1170
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 3: and my girlfriend readily agreed, but I left it there

1171
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 3: for now. I will talk to my girlfriend in specific

1172
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 3: terms about my grieving and the feelings it conjured after

1173
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 3: I've had more breakfast conversations with Michelle. My third assignment

1174
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 3: was to join a grief support group. I found one.

1175
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 3: They follow a workbook called grief Share. This was the

1176
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 3: only group available on short notice, so I really didn't

1177
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 3: look into. Grief Share turned out to be a faith

1178
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 3: based program, but I'm not religious and the references I

1179
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 3: found distracting, so I may look for another group that

1180
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 3: might be more helpful. Thanks so much, Guy and Laurie

1181
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 3: for your help.

1182
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:30,080
Speaker 1: So Richard is really starting the process of grieving. When

1183
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:34,799
Speaker 1: he talked about the evolution of the breakfast with Michelle

1184
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 1: getting to a point just in this first week of

1185
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: toggling between despair and intimacy and feeling closer to her,

1186
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: I think that is what had been missing he wasn't

1187
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: able to feel the despair, and he wasn't able to

1188
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 1: feel the closeness. He would compartmentalize those and I'm glad

1189
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: he's doing what he needs to do, which is to

1190
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 1: let himself feel whatever he feels, to really stay focused

1191
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 1: on talking to Michelle about what has been like since

1192
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 1: she's been gone, because he needs to hear it as

1193
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 1: much as he needs to have the conversation with Michelle.

1194
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,759
Speaker 2: I agree, and I think that those first couple of days,

1195
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 2: with that first assignment where he felt really uncomfortable, that's

1196
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 2: where he would have stopped previously. And I'm impressed that

1197
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 2: he really got the message of no, you have to

1198
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 2: stay with these things. You don't run away from it

1199
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 2: at the minute that oh, I'm uncomfortable, let me run away.

1200
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 2: So he stayed with it, and he started to feel

1201
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 2: and he started to feel different things. And when he says,

1202
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 2: I'm not going to talk to my girlfriend yet, I

1203
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 2: want to have more breakfast, I think he's beginning to

1204
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 2: understand that he has a lot more to explore, and

1205
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:49,479
Speaker 2: if he puts himself in the situation and stays with

1206
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 2: these feelings, he'll be able to move forward. And then

1207
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,400
Speaker 2: when he has a conversation with his girlfriend, he'll actually

1208
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 2: have something to say. So he's really being persistent way

1209
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 2: that he wasn't before.

1210
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad to hear it, and i think

1211
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 1: it was a great sign for that relationship, whatever happens

1212
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 1: with it, that she was so receptive to his saying

1213
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to need to talk about this, and whether

1214
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 1: it's this relationship or another relationship, he knows now that

1215
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: this is a part of him that you can have

1216
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,799
Speaker 1: both Michelle there with you and you can move forward

1217
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:24,639
Speaker 1: with somebody else.

1218
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I'm also really impressed that within a week he

1219
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 2: found a support group an attendity, So that shows a

1220
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 2: lot of motivation on his part and a lot of

1221
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 2: readiness to really embrace this grieving process in a much

1222
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 2: more useful way for him ultimately. And I'm also glad

1223
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 2: that this long term thinking then is this is not

1224
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:48,920
Speaker 2: the group for me because some of the faith based

1225
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 2: things don't sit well with me, So let me find

1226
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 2: one that I relate to more. And I really heard

1227
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 2: the intentionality there in him saying that. I get the

1228
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:02,679
Speaker 2: sense that he's under stood that he needs to engage

1229
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 2: in a grieving process in a very different way, and

1230
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 2: that he's really starting to do that.

1231
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 1: And I think an important message here is that sometimes

1232
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 1: when people look for a support group around grief or

1233
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: whatever the support group might be, if they go to

1234
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 1: one and it's not quite a match, they do need

1235
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 1: to find one where they feel comfortable. So I hope

1236
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 1: that he doesn't get turned off by this experience and

1237
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: think that's what it's going to be like, that he

1238
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 1: can find one where he finds his people, his philosophy,

1239
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 1: and where he feels comfortable. So Richard, if you're listening

1240
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 1: to this, I hope that you'll do a little more research.

1241
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 1: I know it was rushed and you didn't have a

1242
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 1: lot of time, but now you can take a little

1243
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 1: bit of time and research some of these groups and

1244
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 1: find one that feels right to you so that you

1245
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: have some support around you from people who really understand

1246
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:53,719
Speaker 1: what you're going through.

1247
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 2: And I hope you can continue, Richard, to lean into

1248
01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 2: the discomfort and to really your emotions as you've started

1249
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 2: to do, because I think that ultimately you'll be able

1250
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 2: to come out of it in a much better place.

1251
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 2: Next week, a woman who wants to have a better

1252
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:16,839
Speaker 2: relationship with her angry older sister wonders if that's possible.

1253
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:21,000
Speaker 5: I feel so attacked by her and her emails that

1254
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 5: she's made it clear my vision and my view of

1255
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 5: the past is the right one and the correct one,

1256
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:28,600
Speaker 5: and your course is not.

1257
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,519
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1258
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 1: free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help

1259
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: support your therapists by telling your friends about it and

1260
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help

1261
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: people to find the show.

1262
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:46,760
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1263
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:52,720
Speaker 2: email us at Lauridguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive

1264
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:56,839
Speaker 2: producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,

1265
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:01,599
Speaker 2: additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our

1266
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 2: intern is Alana Doherty and special thanks to our podcast

1267
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 2: fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see you

1268
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:12,800
Speaker 2: at our next session. Thee Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,

1269
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:19,679
Speaker 2: Fish Food