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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only legendary Joan Bias. Joan,

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Speaker 1: the new movie is out. I am a noise. Now

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Speaker 1: that it's out, how do you feel about it?

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Speaker 2: Well, the response has been absolutely extraordinary and wonderful. But

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Speaker 2: even before that, I recognize it as a superb work

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Speaker 2: of art. And that doesn't even have that much to

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Speaker 2: do with me. It's the filmmaking. I mean, I'm glad

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Speaker 2: they were making it about me, but it is really

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Speaker 2: a work of art, and it was meant to be

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Speaker 2: an honest legacy, and it did turn out to be that.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's one thing to have private conversations, is another

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Speaker 1: thing to hear your see your story depicted on the

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Speaker 1: big screen for everybody. You talk about a lot of

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Speaker 1: personal elements, depression, relationships. Do you squirm a little bit

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Speaker 1: seeing that up there? Or do you say, no, that's me,

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Speaker 1: that's fine.

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Speaker 2: The funny thing is what I squirm about is something

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Speaker 2: like a vocal lesson the other You know, it's me,

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Speaker 2: It's fine. I didn't know how i'd feel. Plus I

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Speaker 2: wasn't there when I made it. I had nothing to

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Speaker 2: say about it at the very very end, they do.

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Speaker 2: You want to have a look, but it's too mad

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Speaker 2: to do anything about it. So I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: extent of it would be cringe worthy, But the little

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Speaker 2: parts that are now just make me laugh. And I

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Speaker 2: know that as a whole, whatever is in there is

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Speaker 2: in there for a reason. And you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I've got nothing to lose now, really, Famili's gone. I'm

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Speaker 2: eighty two, and if I want to be honest, let's

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Speaker 2: just let it all hang out. So that's what we did.

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Speaker 1: So you talk a lot about depression in the movie.

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Speaker 1: When did you first feel that you were different from

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Speaker 1: other people that you felt depressed?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's funny about depression. My mother was depressed her

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Speaker 2: whole life, but didn't know it until she took any

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Speaker 2: depression when she was in her eighties. So you don't know,

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Speaker 2: you just know, I mean, for me, speaking for me,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that word. I didn't know. I just

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Speaker 2: knew I was different. I knew other kids didn't feel

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Speaker 2: sick in the morning, didn't you know? Those are the

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Speaker 2: things that made me feel different, you know, in another

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Speaker 2: world from my classmates.

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Speaker 1: So do you take medication now?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I do for the deep work that I did

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Speaker 2: to really go through the tunnel and come out what

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Speaker 2: I considered to be healthy human being. We had to

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Speaker 2: find the appropriate medication that would allow me to work.

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Speaker 2: If I was working from a place of depression and

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Speaker 2: I didn't have really didn't have my faculties available to me,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it could have worked, or it would

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Speaker 2: have been really really painful. So to find that takes

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Speaker 2: some experimenting, you know. And then we came up and

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Speaker 2: I still it's different now because it internally one changes

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Speaker 2: and periodically something will go off and I'll review the

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Speaker 2: medication see what Maybe you know I need less of

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Speaker 2: or more of, et cetera. But I know I'm still

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Speaker 2: on it. It's a steady I'm joking about it in

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Speaker 2: the film, you know. I say I'm taking sea sick

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Speaker 2: pills and nausea pills, up and down pills, and then

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Speaker 2: on top of that, I take my own stuff, So

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Speaker 2: my own stuff is what's concerned.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So how is your outlook and feeling differently different

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Speaker 1: now that you're on medication.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's the question. I think the question

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Speaker 2: is how is it different from the work that I did?

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Speaker 2: I think, well, okay, do this way. If I stopped

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Speaker 2: all on medication, I think I would be in pretty

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Speaker 2: big trouble. But that isn't the issue because I'm I

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Speaker 2: found what's appropriate to keep the highest from being too

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Speaker 2: high and the lows from being too low. And then

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Speaker 2: it's more about the work that I have done and

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Speaker 2: to some degree still do. But I don't see a

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Speaker 2: therapist anymore. No, I'm really free of that. So no,

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Speaker 2: it is it's about the work. It's about having done

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Speaker 2: the work.

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Speaker 1: Okay. In the film, you say that you ultimately do

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Speaker 1: this deep work at a relatively advanced age, inspired by

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Speaker 1: your system. Me me, can you tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit more how that comes to be?

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Speaker 2: Well, she was She and I always knew there was

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Speaker 2: something wrong. I mean, there's something wrong with our relationship,

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Speaker 2: but we never understood why. And then but she was

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Speaker 2: the first one to think, whoopsie, you know, maybe it

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Speaker 2: was something that we really that was really buried and

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Speaker 2: did I was I understood in going investigating that with her,

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Speaker 2: and so we both embarked on this journey and came

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Speaker 2: up with very similar stories and supported each other through

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Speaker 2: it in spite of our difficulties. Together, You know, we

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Speaker 2: really were there to support each other on their mutual journeys.

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Speaker 1: Well, in the movie, there's issues of abuse, which your

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Speaker 1: father denies and the two of you believe happened. Uh,

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Speaker 1: how did you reconcile your father's deniy was what you felt?

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Speaker 2: You know? I read him. I was reading a book

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Speaker 2: of a famous actor who I willed that name, but

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Speaker 2: he he discovered that he was abused by a priest

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Speaker 2: when he was eight, and he struggled with that for

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Speaker 2: his entire lifetime, and at one point decided he was

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Speaker 2: going to call this old man you know who had

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Speaker 2: abused him and other kids. And he called him, ready

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Speaker 2: to just say, you know, you sort of a bitch,

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Speaker 2: you whatever, and he realized he couldn't say anything. This

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Speaker 2: old guy was a pleasant old man who was living

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Speaker 2: probably a fairly decent life, having passed the stage where

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Speaker 2: he had to do all the shenanigans, and he didn't.

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Speaker 2: And he realized I didn't remember. I mean, he buried it.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know how that happens, but obviously it

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Speaker 2: happened to me. So I the reason I could forgive

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Speaker 2: my parents is that I I knew they didn't remember anything,

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Speaker 2: and that that's one of the hardest things for people

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Speaker 2: to understand, because I mean, just the expression on your face,

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Speaker 2: for instance, on the zoom is what what what the

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Speaker 2: fuck is that about?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, how do you find a box to put

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Speaker 1: that in? All these years later?

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Speaker 2: I guess the process of discovering who did what to

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Speaker 2: whom is a long process and a deep process, and

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Speaker 2: I guess the best answer to that is putting in

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Speaker 2: my little multiple helpers, and that's what they're there for,

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Speaker 2: and just somebody helps take the take the load off

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Speaker 2: each You know, each time there's a fresh realization, there

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Speaker 2: are different ways, there are different places to put it in,

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Speaker 2: different ways to deal with it. And it's ongoing, No,

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Speaker 2: it's it's constant through that time period of discovery.

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Speaker 1: In the movie, you say a number of times you're

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Speaker 1: not good at relationships. Do you think that's as a

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Speaker 1: result of the abuse?

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Speaker 2: I think that from when I talk to people, everybody

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Speaker 2: goes ha ha ha ha, yam too, So I don't.

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Speaker 2: I think one to one, one on one relationships are

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Speaker 2: probably the hardest things for us, the human beings, to tackle.

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Speaker 2: I think that it's exacerbated by the fact that we

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Speaker 2: once trusted and that trust was taken away, you know,

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Speaker 2: so who do you trust? You don't to be intimate

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Speaker 2: means you have to trust the other person to open

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Speaker 2: yourself up to the other person. So I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: joking when I say I'm I mean, I'm really good

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Speaker 2: one on two thousand, because I am, and I never

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Speaker 2: I mean. Towards the end of the time period that

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Speaker 2: I was really working on this stuff, I reached a

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Speaker 2: level of wholeness that I couldn't have imagined before. And

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Speaker 2: my therapis said he started hinting around about, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe the next step is to try and find somebody,

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Speaker 2: to find a partner, and I didn't know. I'm happy here.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to take on that load, which you'd

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Speaker 2: take another ten years. So that was just a decision

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Speaker 2: I made because I know that I don't have the

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Speaker 2: patients to disrupt my life again when it's reached this really,

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Speaker 2: really happy level.

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Speaker 1: Now we've had COVID the last handful of years really

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Speaker 1: been crazy. But what does your everyday life look like?

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Speaker 1: Are you more of a homebody? Do you go out?

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Speaker 2: I am homebody. I would say those two choices very much.

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Speaker 2: Your homebody, I guess I've been out enough for sixty

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Speaker 2: years traveling around, and I thought, oh, you know, when

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Speaker 2: I'm through with that, and I can go visit these

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Speaker 2: places and just hang out and see stuff, all things

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Speaker 2: I didn't do while I was traveling. But I haven't

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Speaker 2: really had any interest in getting back on a plane.

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Speaker 2: The only thing I've been doing is hopping around the

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Speaker 2: country talking about this film. And you know, at some

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Speaker 2: point that might change, because because right now it's I

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Speaker 2: don't have a what's a normal day for Joan? You know,

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Speaker 2: when I'm not working on something. A normal day for

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Speaker 2: Joan is more time on the property. There's a creek

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Speaker 2: on this property where I spend a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: It's my one of my happy places. I collect rocks,

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Speaker 2: I mean I do. I talk to trees. I live

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Speaker 2: a life full of nature, as much as a much

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Speaker 2: nature as I can fit in there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're someone who is attractive, outspoken, in legendary famous.

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Speaker 1: I have to believe when you're out and about to

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Speaker 1: use the vernacular, men are hitting on you.

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Speaker 2: But a nice thought, I mean son thought, because at

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Speaker 2: this age it's a question of sensuality, sexuality. Where is that?

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Speaker 2: When I was talking to Jane fondo. She said, oh,

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Speaker 2: I closed up shop a couple of years ago, and

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Speaker 2: I said, well, I don't know what's what is here

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Speaker 2: at this point to be hit upon. I feel very

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Speaker 2: vibrant and I would be delighteders. No men were hitting

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Speaker 2: on me as long as I don't have to hit back.

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Speaker 1: So if a man is warm and congenial, you basically

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Speaker 1: send a vibe. At best, we're on the friend level.

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Speaker 2: Probably probably yeah.

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Speaker 1: And when we were young, person, what vibe did you send?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I think really confused messages. I mean really, I

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Speaker 2: look back at myself and my schoolmates. They couldn't understand me.

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Speaker 2: I mean I didn't understand me, but it was very

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Speaker 2: confusing message that I sent out. And I'm thinking also

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Speaker 2: when we moved to Baghdad, for we were there for

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Speaker 2: a year, my family and I would write my classmates

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Speaker 2: and they never responded. And I was telling them all

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Speaker 2: about Baghdad. Well, they had no point of reference. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't interesting to them that or not I was talking about.

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Speaker 2: So it was just one more I guess what I'm

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Speaker 2: saying is that when we moved a lot and so

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Speaker 2: I never really did have time to hang out and

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Speaker 2: get friends. So I don't know whether I really was

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Speaker 2: capable of doing that or not, but the messages a

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Speaker 2: girlfriend from those days, there were a few people who

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Speaker 2: were really kind to me, and this girl was so

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Speaker 2: sweet and would go through the when I was having

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Speaker 2: a panic attack. She'd be helpful and she would be there.

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Speaker 2: Then years and years later, decades later, I got a

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Speaker 2: letter of her from her saying, oh, now I get it.

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Speaker 2: She had developed a phobia of bridges, going over a

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Speaker 2: bridge and that, you know, all of a sudden, Oh,

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Speaker 2: is that's what my strange friend Joan was going through.

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Speaker 1: When did you have your first panic attack?

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Speaker 2: Oh, Jesus, I don't know. I mean depends probably on

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Speaker 2: how you define it. When you're really little, pretty little, And.

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Speaker 1: If you told your mother you were feeling this way,

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Speaker 1: what would she say?

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Speaker 2: Oh? She I wanted to be with my mom because

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Speaker 2: she would say, oh, let's have a cup of tea.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've run home from school in kindergarten. That

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Speaker 2: my first day of kindergarten, I remember, and I found

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Speaker 2: my way back home because I couldn't. I was too

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Speaker 2: scared to be there. And instead of saying, well, we're

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Speaker 2: going to take your back and talk to the teacher.

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Speaker 2: She said, oh, let's have a cup of tea. You know,

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Speaker 2: so that did two things. It was my comfort zone

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Speaker 2: but also helped keep me from dealing with the reality

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Speaker 2: out there. I'm still glad she did it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you live this tenoran lifestyle and you talk

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Speaker 1: about not being able to make friends. How much of

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Speaker 1: that was situational and how much of that was you.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's what I was trying to say just

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Speaker 2: now that because we traveled like that, and I don't

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Speaker 2: know if we'd ended up somewhere for ten years, would

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Speaker 2: I have developed, you know, relationships, would they have been healthy?

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Speaker 2: Would they have been healthy relationship? I mean this first

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Speaker 2: time I thought of it in those terms. But if

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Speaker 2: I had stayed somewhere, I really don't know. I can't

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Speaker 2: imagine that I would really develop, you know, a healthy

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Speaker 2: bunch of friends around me that I wanted to hang

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Speaker 2: out with and you do whatever normal kids do.

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Speaker 1: So at this late date, how integrated? How mean you

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Speaker 1: talk to other people on the phone? Do you hear

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Speaker 1: from email or you're more of an ice, You're more

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Speaker 1: of an isolated person with your team.

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Speaker 2: No, No, I have the emails and the text coming

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Speaker 2: and going, and yeah, no, I'm not isolated in that sense. Really,

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Speaker 2: it's just not I just really don't want to go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to. I don't go to many concerts.

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Speaker 2: It's just like, you know, I'm stay home and I

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Speaker 2: have lots of friends. Now I have good friends.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I move.

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Speaker 2: We have movie night and there are six women who

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Speaker 2: watch it. This happened when my mom was still alive

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Speaker 2: for ten years in her little house, we'd have movie

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Speaker 2: Night the first Tuesday of every month. Well I'm still

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Speaker 2: doing that. And then I have another group of friends.

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Speaker 2: We dance together. We used to dance in the city

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Speaker 2: and now we just dance on Zoom once a week

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Speaker 2: and that's and then I have a group I call

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Speaker 2: the Gang of Eight. And there are people I refer

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Speaker 2: to for anything political, to discuss with them and ask

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Speaker 2: their suggestions and their thoughts. So some of those overlap.

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Speaker 2: But I have a lot of friends.

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Speaker 1: So how do you pick the movies? And what are

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Speaker 1: some good movies you've seen?

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Speaker 2: How do you pick the movies? Oh, usually it's somebody

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Speaker 2: has a plan and then we start talking about it

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Speaker 2: and the planet switches and then we just turn on

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Speaker 2: TV and see whatever comes up. We turn on the

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Speaker 2: Prime one night and on the Waterfront was on, and

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Speaker 2: it was it was an old brainer. It was so wonderful,

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Speaker 2: especially compared to so much of the trashism that's out now,

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Speaker 2: to see, you know, really good. Sometimes you just want

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Speaker 2: to be silly. I think the next one I have

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Speaker 2: in my mind for us to watch is TUTSI. I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen it for years, you know, it would make

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Speaker 2: us laugh. And then their serious nights, in their nights

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Speaker 2: when there's political stuff going on, and we'll brave it,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'll watch something it's hard to watch.

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Speaker 1: And this group of eight that you check in with

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Speaker 1: political stuff on what kind of topics have you been

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Speaker 1: broaching recently?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, obviously the most recent is the Middle East,

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Speaker 2: where we all pretty much decide the exception of few things,

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Speaker 2: I wish they had them in front of me, because

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Speaker 2: there are a few things that you can do and

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Speaker 2: go and be with. It's such an agonizing situation. And

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Speaker 2: we're all, you know, and have been non violent activists

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Speaker 2: for most of our lives, and there comes a point

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Speaker 2: when things aren't such full flow. There's very little room

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Speaker 2: for non violent action, although there is some and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's non violent action. There's those wonderful women who are

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Speaker 2: thanking their captors and getting hell for it because they're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be resentful and shabby. And this woman, I

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Speaker 2: guess shaking hands with her abductor, with her kidnapper as

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Speaker 2: he treated her well, she's saying thank you. That is

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Speaker 2: an act of strength, and real strength.

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Speaker 1: You're a cent in your career coincided with the advent

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Speaker 1: of the sixties, youth quake blowing up. Politics was everything.

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Speaker 1: The younger generation was a great percentage of the population.

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Speaker 1: There was the Vietnam War in nineteen seventy, there was

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Speaker 1: Kent State, there was a so called returned to the land,

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Speaker 1: people looking their wounds, and then we had the Iran

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Speaker 1: crisis in the next decade, and people were talking about

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Speaker 1: bombing Iran. With the perspective you have, it's like, is

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Speaker 1: there any hope can we you know? Or is this

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Speaker 1: just endemic to society.

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Speaker 2: I don't really know. I know that, you know, people

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Speaker 2: would assume that I'm an optimist. I never have been.

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Speaker 2: I struggle to not be a pessimist. Somebody suggested it

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Speaker 2: was a waste of time, and I think that's true.

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Speaker 2: I struggle with hope. Somebody said, hope is a discipline,

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Speaker 2: and it's like a muscle. It has to be exercised

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Speaker 2: for me, for somebody who's glass half empty and sometimes

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Speaker 2: all the way empty. I think the trick is that

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Speaker 2: I've always done what I've done anyway, whether I was

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Speaker 2: optimistic about it or not. The moral compass would just

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Speaker 2: dictate what I did next.

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Speaker 1: In the movie, it hints at the fact that you

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Speaker 1: always knew you were different, you were charismatic, you were

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Speaker 1: going to be successful. When did you internally recognize that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about being successful. I don't think that

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Speaker 2: word was in my vocabulary. I had total faith in

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Speaker 2: my voice. I might have been, you know, had squeamish

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Speaker 2: about everything else, or thought I wasn't good enough, or

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Speaker 2: thought I was a dumb Mexican whatever, But once that

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Speaker 2: voice started to I'd say by sixteen, I was sure

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Speaker 2: that it was special. By the time I was twenty,

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Speaker 2: and there was nothing could have could have inter feared

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Speaker 2: with my feelings about my own voice. So I don't

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Speaker 2: know what your question was.

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Speaker 1: Now, Well, okay, well you felt that voice to be successful.

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Speaker 1: In the world of entertainment, talent, is it most fifty percent.

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Speaker 1: The other fifty percent is dry and need, etc. So

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Speaker 1: where did that drive and need come from?

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Speaker 2: I think I don't seize myself as ambitious, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's probably because I didn't have to be. I

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Speaker 2: had to get ambitious enough to keep going when the

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Speaker 2: career fell apart. And that's all in the film is

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Speaker 2: pretty clear. But at the beginning, my idea of the

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Speaker 2: future was the following Wednesday. You know I didn't have

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Speaker 2: Some kid asked me once I was about seventeen, I

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Speaker 2: thought I was going to be famous, and I hadn't

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Speaker 2: even thought about it. It seemed like a fun idea.

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Speaker 2: Once he said it, I didn't me. I thought that

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Speaker 2: would be kind of cool. And once I was seeing

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Speaker 2: any chiatrist when I was twenty, and I told him

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Speaker 2: I'd had a dream that I was singing with Harry

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Speaker 2: Bellafai and he said, don't you think you're having delusions

347
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Speaker 2: in grandeur?

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Speaker 1: And I said, no, that begs the question. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever sing with Harry Bellefanie?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I did, Yeah, I did on Marches. Yeah, what

351
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Speaker 2: a wonderful guy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so your family moves to Boston. How do you

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Speaker 1: end up playing at club forty seven.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have to say, good old Dad took his

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Speaker 2: three daughters and his wife into Cambridge because he'd seen

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Speaker 2: with his own eyes these coffee shops and he knew that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was starting to play guitar and starting

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Speaker 2: to learn folk music. And he took us into Cambridge,

359
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Speaker 2: and he took us into the Harbor Square. He walked around.

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Speaker 2: I remember looking in the door of one of these

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Speaker 2: coffee shops sing a guy playing guitar, singing, sitting under

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Speaker 2: his yellow light. Everybody's smoking, and all these students, you know,

363
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Speaker 2: discussing whatever, and that kind of was. It was a bingo,

364
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Speaker 2: you know. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to go and beg every song off of him and

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Speaker 2: everybody I knew, everybody I met, and have them teach me,

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Speaker 2: teach me the guitar.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So what happened first the learning process? Did you

369
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Speaker 1: would shed for a while or at what point did

370
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Speaker 1: you get up on stage and then perform for others?

371
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Speaker 2: Oh? Very fast, Because I was eighteen or nineteen at Newport,

372
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Speaker 2: I had already sung. I sang this thing for the Shriners.

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Speaker 2: I mean I would go where somebody said, hey, I

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Speaker 2: was sixteen. I'm in high school. So and so wanted

375
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Speaker 2: you to come and sing for their class. Okay, I

376
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Speaker 2: go singing to their class. Some of his dad was

377
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Speaker 2: with the Shriners. They wanted me to come and sing

378
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Speaker 2: with the Shriners. And I went and I sang in

379
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: his drunken old shriner came over and he said, honey,

380
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Speaker 2: don't sign cheap.

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Speaker 1: It's that great phenomenal.

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Speaker 2: That was really funny.

383
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, was your first public outing club forty seven

384
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Speaker 1: or did you play another clubs before that?

385
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Speaker 2: No, that was the first one and almost the only one.

386
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Speaker 2: I mean it was became home and I started off

387
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Speaker 2: on every two I think it was every Tuesday, and

388
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Speaker 2: had ten dollars. That was a big deal. Then they

389
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Speaker 2: added a probably it was Tuesdays and Fridays. Then it

390
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: went up to fifteen dollars, and I really felt he

391
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Speaker 2: felt like a rich girl. And I had had two jobs.

392
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Speaker 2: I had had one job at Boston Vespa company, where

393
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Speaker 2: I taught people how to drive vestpro.

394
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Speaker 1: So I had to if you're driving investment was did

395
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Speaker 1: you ever crash?

396
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 2: Yes? I did once, but it was on a motorcycle.

397
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: It was on a little tiny, stupid motorcycle. But yes,

398
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: I did fall over once as on my way to

399
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: my psychiatrist, and I told what happened. He said, are

400
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: you crazy? That's a stupid question. Anyway, where did I

401
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: Where did I veer off?

402
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Speaker 1: Just now you were talking about playing Club forty seven,

403
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Speaker 1: working your way up the ladder.

404
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I played the one week. The first night I played,

405
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Speaker 2: there was my mother and father, two sisters, and one

406
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Speaker 2: other person. I don't remember who that was. That was it,

407
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: probably the owners of the club. And then whatever happened

408
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: between that and the following week, it was then full,

409
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Speaker 2: and I don't remember what happened.

410
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Speaker 1: And then if there were only your family members there,

411
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Speaker 1: why did everybody show up a week later?

412
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Speaker 2: I don't know. And I don't know if anybody knew

413
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: on that first night, or if the word got out

414
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: or I don't know, but it was really fast. And

415
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: then shortly after that, Albert Grossman, who handled just about

416
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: everybody in the folk world, invited me to come to Newport.

417
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: Wanted me to go to Newport, and so.

418
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Speaker 1: So I went.

419
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: And that was the You know what I'm thinking when

420
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: I'm going through this, I had already been to Chicago,

421
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: to the Gate of Horn to sing itub It was

422
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: his club and it was a real club and people

423
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: drank and stuff. It was a big deal for me

424
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 2: because I didn't think that was appropriate. Man, people drank anywhere.

425
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: So and I was there for a couple of weeks

426
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Speaker 2: opening for Bob Gibson. That's okay, that's how it goes.

427
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: And then Gibson was singing at Newport and he invited me,

428
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 2: an Odette invited me, and that's where that's we were

429
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: all kind of pop.

430
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: Let's go a little bit slower. You're playing club forty seven,

431
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: you're going to college. How do you end up dropping

432
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: out of college?

433
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: Oh? That was easy, that was the easy part. I

434
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: literally I was there for about six weeks. I mean

435
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: after that it was just pretending to my parents that

436
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 2: I was in school. I don't think there was I

437
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 2: didn't know there are that many ways to flunk. There

438
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 2: was you know, there was a zero, there was an F,

439
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: there was a missing an action, whatever they are. But

440
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: the only grade I got that was decent was art class,

441
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: and it was because they studied Alasco caves. And I

442
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: was so enthralled with that that I actually paid attention.

443
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: Okay, but your your father's academic how does he feel

444
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: about you dripping out of college?

445
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: Horrible? But he knew. I mean, my opalling went to

446
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: college just really for him. She had no desire to

447
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: go and she didn't last there. And I was so

448
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: out of it. By the end of high school. Everybody's

449
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: talking about college boards. I didn't know what a college

450
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: board was, and I was too embarrassed to ask, And

451
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: anytime anybody said it, I just pictured a two x

452
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: four plank a board that and I wouldn't go be

453
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 2: I wouldn't ask any questions beyond that. And then my

454
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 2: mother was trying to get me interested in one of

455
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: the East Coast girls schools, you know, Bennington, where it's

456
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: free for the arts and encouraged arts and music. And

457
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: I went to the interview with Mimi and my parents

458
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: and it was a complete disaster. She'd say something like, well,

459
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: what are your study habits like, and I'd say, I

460
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: don't have any you know. It was just horrible, and

461
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: I didn't get in. And the only place I got

462
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: into was Boston University. Fine Arts.

463
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're at Club forty seven. You obviously are

464
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: feeling good that there's an audience, you're making money. What

465
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: At what point do professionals say, hey, kid, you know

466
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: you should come here and make a deal with me.

467
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: Well, actually that happened when I was in high school,

468
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: and these two they remind me of the of those

469
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: sneaky guys in Pinocchio. They kind of came in, they said,

470
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: come on, little girl, we're going to make an album.

471
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: And all I had was stuff like Annie had a

472
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: baby and work with me, Annie and six Bellefontie songs.

473
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: So I went and did everything I knew and they

474
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: pressed it and it was one that we banned. I

475
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: can't remember the name of it, but it was really

476
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: really early. And then it was that come on, honey,

477
00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: we're going to make you famous. And then oh it

478
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: happened in an ice way. That all at grossman time period.

479
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: I was in twenty nineteen, I think, and he wanted

480
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: me to sign with Columbia, which is where everybody was going,

481
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 2: and I was just leary of the size of it,

482
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: you know, the gold records on the walls, and I

483
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to Vanguard, which is basically a classical

484
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: music company. And first I went to Columbia with Grossman,

485
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: and I literally developed a cold while I was sitting

486
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: there and he's over my shoulder saying sign here, and

487
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: I said, no, I had to fight it. No, I

488
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: want to go talk to Vanguard first. And of course

489
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: I was more comfortable at Vanguard. And it was a

490
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: wonderful decision.

491
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: It was a wonderful decision because because it.

492
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: Was the right company for me. The Maynard Solomon owned

493
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: the company, and he produced my albums, and he understood

494
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: and loved folk music and he, you know, we helped

495
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: me with always with the songs I was going to choose,

496
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't know what the path would have been.

497
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: If I'd gone on Columbia, probably fine, Probably would have

498
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: been fine. But I think for me to stay oriented,

499
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: for me to not tip over, it's probably safer to

500
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: be with that guard.

501
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you start to have the success very quickly. How

502
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: do you cope with the attention? Very few people are

503
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: in this situation, yeah, and very few people in this

504
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: situation that quickly. Yeah, but there's a lot of tumult.

505
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: There's no one from your regular life who understands what

506
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: you're going through. Yeah, So what was it like for you?

507
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: Well, as part of it was really exciting because there

508
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: I was with an identity, and there I was with

509
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: people paying attention to me, and I had value and worths.

510
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: And then so that would It's like reading reviews. If

511
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: you read good reviews, you get all puffed up. If

512
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: you read bad ones, you get miserable. You know, So

513
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: what do you do with your life? And that do

514
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: you believe everybody was saying wonderful things about you? I

515
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: know that my Quaker background was helpful because I understood

516
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: about being quiet, and I understood about meditation, and I

517
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: understood about you know that I was just so small

518
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: in this, in the greater scheme of things, and so

519
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: I did a lot of meditation and prayer back then

520
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: to sort of try and keep me on the right path.

521
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: And not that I was always on the right path,

522
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: but I but I tried. At an early age. I tried,

523
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,239
Speaker 2: and I was a little neurotic. I didn't. I mean,

524
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: I didn't want anything on the stage. I want to

525
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: pitch black. I wanted no frills, and I thought it

526
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: would be easier for everybody, and it wasn't. It was

527
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: just as difficult. People had planned to pour roses on

528
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: the stage, you know. And then once I said no

529
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: more limousines for me, I don't want any more limousines

530
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: because I felt too privileged. And that lasted a couple

531
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: of months. If somebody showed up has broken down, Volkswagen Bus,

532
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: give me the limousines back, and I've been happy in

533
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: them ever since. I wish they didn't need so much gas.

534
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: What about the me too moments?

535
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: I was not not active in that, and you know,

536
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: I wasn't speaking about myself at that point.

537
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: So I guess what I'm saying is, you're a young girl,

538
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: twenty years old, you're in business, You're a hot commodity.

539
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: Anyway, I see any.

540
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: Woman who's twenty years old, even at this late date,

541
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: with new consciousness, it's a volatile situation.

542
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: Say which situation?

543
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: Sorry, sexually charged with men trying to take advantage of you.

544
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: Oh I see, well, I think it was in some

545
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: ways too puritanical at some point, and then they didn't

546
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 2: take advantage when I hadn't slept with them. Okay, this

547
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: isn't I don't know if it's okay or not, but

548
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to be honest.

549
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: Oh died great, But this is an era with the

550
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: folk music scene. We even end up with a TV

551
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 1: show about folk music Kot and Nanny prior to the Beatles,

552
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: but Dylan comes along in the early sixties. First album

553
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: is Covers, but then he starts to write did you

554
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: feel any pressure to write? Did you feel different from

555
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: the people who wrote?

556
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 2: You know what, I never even considered it, because I

557
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: just considered that I was an interpreter of folk balance

558
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: folk music. And it was somebody after ten years in

559
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: said well, are you ever going to write anything? And

560
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 2: that's the first time I'd really thought about her. And

561
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: that's when I I wrote Sweetster Galahad, and so I

562
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: sort of proved to myself that yeah, I could write.

563
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: And then after that I enjoyed it. I mean, I

564
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 2: wrote a bunch of things.

565
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: And what did you feel when the Beatles came along?

566
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: Oh? I loved the Beatles. I was in there. I

567
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: was when they might have been their first show in

568
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 2: the States. It is certainly the first tour. I was

569
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: in Denver and they were I'd been at Red Rocks

570
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 2: and they were there the next night, and I met

571
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 2: them out there, absolutely charming and funny, and they were

572
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 2: so thrilled in that hotel room. They had a whole

573
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: floor to themselves. What got them most excited was the

574
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: fact that there was a Coca Cola machine. You didn't

575
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: have to put any money in. It looked ludn't put

576
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 2: the co in, and then you get to Coca Colo.

577
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: They were happy.

578
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: Did you have any idea that the British invasion was

579
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: coming and this might negatively impact your career?

580
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: Neither I learned, as as everybody else did. They started,

581
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: you know, just one hit after another in this massive phenomenon,

582
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: and you know, I was fortunate enough to spend a

583
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: little time with them.

584
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: Well did you wake up in the later years and say,

585
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: wait a second. You know, you talk about the seventies

586
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: in the movie, but even the sixties you'd say, wait

587
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: a second. You know, I'm not the hot thing, and

588
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: the direction seems to be going somewhere else.

589
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a little later, because I was a

590
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: hot thing for maybe fifteen years or something, and then

591
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: I was, you know, still more than tepid for the

592
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: next five or six years. Okay, question again, Well.

593
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: Let me let me back into it. You are famously

594
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: in the Woodstock movie. Okay, no one else is like you.

595
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: You're pregnant. You're talking about your husband in jail when

596
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: you see that or when you're reminded of that, do

597
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable or do you feel you're being so

598
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: authentic that you WinCE in some way?

599
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 2: No, I you know, I don't WinCE much in this.

600
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: I was young, Dylan was young, We still had our

601
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: baby fat. We got to forgive ourselves for some things. No,

602
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: there are a couple of times when I laugh. The

603
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: goal I had we're going to start a peace movement

604
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: and talking it was just rolling off the tongue. No,

605
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: and that's what I felt that it's kind of it's

606
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: not cringe eorthy, just sort of amazing and slightly funny.

607
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: And then I went on and did as much of

608
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: that as I could in my lifetime.

609
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about the realization in the seventies

610
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: that you're talking about after fifteen years in the business.

611
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: A second, I seem to be in my own little

612
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: eddie and it seems to be a have passed me by.

613
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: Well, I think it does. A realization doesn't come that fast. First,

614
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: it's how come this hall isn't full? They must not

615
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: have gotten the advertisements out in time? You everything, it's

616
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: finger pointing time, And couldn't never dawned on me that

617
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 2: I would have anything but a full house, because that's

618
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 2: how it started out, and that's how it was. So

619
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: that was the beginning, just the very beginning, because it

620
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: took years really to catch up with my life as

621
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 2: a musician. I was way steadier with the politics. I mean,

622
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: that was I was on solid ground with that. So yeah,

623
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: I think, And I start the film off by saying,

624
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody who's ever been famous thinks it's

625
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 2: ever going to stop, especially if you're that young. No,

626
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: there's no frame of reference except you know, there.

627
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: Was my own. So you know, you talk in the

628
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: movie about having success with diamonds and rust and then

629
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: switching managers. It was a bad decision. Now, if you

630
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: many musicians from that era will tell you they're living

631
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: off the publishing and the performing rights money that you

632
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: can get mailbox money when you're sitting at home. But

633
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: you didn't write that many songs, that's true. How's it

634
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 1: worked out for you financially?

635
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: I had some really good people around me, Otherwise I'd

636
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: be a mess that I had. I did pick wonderful people,

637
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: and they worked me through that quagmire because they knew

638
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 2: what they were doing. And I'm fine. I am not.

639
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 2: You know, I am not a millionaires. I never will

640
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: be that interested in making that kind of money. So

641
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: I'm good.

642
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: Okay, you write Diamonds and Rust. It ends up becoming

643
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: very successful, even on FM radio, which is getting harder

644
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: and more corporate. At the time. You're writing about the

645
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: ten years before twelve years before Bob Dylan, did this

646
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: cause any Let me put it this way. Did you

647
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: say I'm going to do this or did you say, hmm,

648
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, I'm trading on the past. I'm trading on Dylan.

649
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: This might not be the right thing to do.

650
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: No, I wasn't trading on anybody. I just wrote the song.

651
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: I had no idea that it was going to become popular.

652
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: In fact, I was writing another song to that melody.

653
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: And it's true Bob called from the phone booth in

654
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 2: the Midwest and they read me one of his songs,

655
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: and that's where the whole song was triggered. That I

656
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 2: just had written a song. And anyway, if you didn't

657
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 2: know the history of Bob and me to some degree,

658
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 2: fortunately it still holds up as a song.

659
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: It absolutely does. But there was so much information back then.

660
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: So this phone call took place when.

661
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not going to remember. Please don't ask me

662
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: date you No.

663
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to say is was this a memory

664
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: of a phone call in the sixties or was this

665
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: just before you wrote the song?

666
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 2: It was just before I wrote the song.

667
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had maintained contact with Bob Dylan over

668
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: these years?

669
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 2: Not really, I mean it was sort of out of

670
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: the blue that Betty called. Yeah, it was nine. You know,

671
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 2: we weren't buddies all that time, and you talked of

672
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 2: it all now. I don't know if anybody does.

673
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: He's busy on tour than going back to the bus.

674
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: So you meet him when his career is very nascent,

675
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: and then in sixty five, as a giant radio hit

676
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: like a Rolling Stone, you go to England with him.

677
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: Did you see him change? This is you know in

678
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: the movie you talk about the fact you wake up

679
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: one day, what am I doing here? This is not

680
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: my world? Okay? Did he change with success? Was that

681
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: part of it?

682
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 2: I think so? I think so. And it was also

683
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: says that the film had happened very quickly, that suddenly

684
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: there was this crush of people around him. It started

685
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: but just kids, you know, fans wanted to be around

686
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: him and adore him. And then it was a slightly

687
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: different scene going to Europe. Yes, there were all those fans,

688
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: but then there was his sort of cluster of in

689
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: house people, of the in crowd, and that's where I

690
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 2: was not comfortable. I think I was welcomed, but I

691
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: wasn't comfortable. And in the end, you know, those that

692
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: group of people, it was really a druggy group, and

693
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't fit in. I didn't. It wasn't

694
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: part of my circles.

695
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: So in terms of your own drug, as we said

696
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: back then, experimentation, we did you go through that? Was

697
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: it never your thing? Or you dabbled?

698
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: No. The only thing ever, and it's also in the

699
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: film was many years later fet Onto Coaylude and took

700
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: a lot of coyluded for about eight years. But well,

701
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: everybody else was doing all this stuff. They were leaving

702
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: these pills on the stool by their microphone, and you know,

703
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: it probably was great stuff, but I just didn't relate

704
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 2: to it. I throw it in my purse and return

705
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: to powder. So I wasn't. I just didn't relate to it.

706
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: For whatever. I don't think they're virtue reasons. I think

707
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 2: I've probably just scared.

708
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 1: So quayludes and soapers, which are the same things, start

709
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: to happen in the early seventies. So how do you

710
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: first start taking quayludes?

711
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: I can't remember. I can't remember because I was so

712
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: scared of taking anything. I must have taken an eighth

713
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 2: of it or something, and that a sixth of one,

714
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 2: and I never took Mommy the half of them. Half

715
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: one was probably the most I ever took at a time.

716
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: So what was the motivation to continue to take them

717
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: all those years?

718
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: Comfort zone? It was made my life easier, made meeting people, laughing,

719
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: going to restaurants, all things that had a lot of anxiety.

720
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: It took away to anxiety. That's the real answer to

721
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: your question.

722
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: So, even at this late date, although we're all older,

723
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: did you have a level of social anxiety? Like as

724
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: someone called you up, Oh, we're going to go to

725
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: dann there's going to be s having people there you

726
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: don't know, would say, oh, sounds great. When I show up,

727
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: you say, well, you know, I really have something I

728
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: want to do at home. I'd rather not.

729
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: No, when you're saying that, I don't go to dinner

730
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: that much. But when I go with my pals. We

731
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: have a wonderful time. No, I think it's boiling down

732
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: to it. And I hadn't thought about all this till

733
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: we started talking. I don't know how many friends one

734
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 2: really needs. I know, I'm not interested in going to parties.

735
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: I'm not interested in going to places where the leaves

736
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: look like really nice people. And then somebody says, oh,

737
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: I saw you in nineteen seventy two and I was

738
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: wearing a plaid shirt, sitting in the front row. I think, yeah,

739
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 2: not interested, you know, but I try to be nice

740
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: because that meant something in that person's life. Somebody gave

741
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 2: me a great T shirt wanted to said please, don't

742
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 2: tell me your story, and then he proceeded to tell

743
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: me his long story about how he found the T shirt. Anyway,

744
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 2: it's about people wanting to place themselves in your life

745
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: or place you, and what it meant to them so

746
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: and it meant a lots. So I think treating them

747
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: decently is the you know what I can do.

748
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're a famous person, you're out and about

749
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: on tour, you're in an airport, whatever. Everybody who comes

750
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: up to you tells you a story.

751
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: They want to do you travel with me someday and

752
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 2: it's just you. I see it in their eyes and

753
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: they take a big breath they say I saw you

754
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 2: as they go fuck do. And I was in the

755
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: front row. And almost a lot of people will start

756
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: with you may not remember me, but I think you know,

757
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 2: the chances that I remembering you I want in a million.

758
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: But how do I you know, let that person know

759
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: that they count as a person and try to avoid it.

760
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll just say no stories, no stories please.

761
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: Well that's one of the reasons I don't talk on

762
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 1: the phone people bull It's like, get to the ask

763
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: what do you want? So I can say no, so

764
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: I can hang.

765
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: Up perfect because we're get to the ask. When I

766
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: do Q and A after the film and you have

767
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: to say, please just ask a question. I am not

768
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: interested in here. Yeah, gotta say it. Sometimes they actually do.

769
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: That drives me crazy. Have Q and A and somebody

770
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: stands up to make a company. We don't give a

771
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: shit what you have to say. The people of the

772
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: stage are the ones. But just to drill down a

773
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: little bit further on this, not now, but when you

774
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: were throughout your life brought into situations well, you may

775
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: or may not have been the focus, and there were

776
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,439
Speaker 1: people you didn't know. Did that cause extreme anxiety?

777
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: You know, as you're saying that, I sort of picture myself.

778
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: I was pretty. I was protected somehow because I was

779
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: already separate from them. I wasn't vying for a friendship

780
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: position or I knew I looked okay. You know, I

781
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 2: was established in myself. I might not have been very interested,

782
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: and I might have been, I might have gotten more

783
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: out of it. And if I'd been more interested and

784
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: more open, but I was okay for the most part.

785
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 2: I was okay.

786
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: And living is a famous person. Where people treat you

787
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: differently your whole life, good, bad or otherwise, How would

788
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: I know? Well? Sometimes, I mean everybody can tell. You

789
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: can perceive that when you're in a group of people,

790
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: they're treating you differently from the other people in the room.

791
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 2: No, But what I mean is that's gone on more

792
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: of my life than not, you see, So that's what

793
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 2: I mean. How would I know? I wouldn't.

794
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: Well, I understand your point of your life. You're the phone.

795
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: But you can tell when someone's being as sick a fan,

796
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can.

797
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: And the clearest I've ever had to be was just say,

798
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: get the fuck out of here. I get what you're

799
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 2: trying to say. I am not interested. Stop saying it now.

800
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to call a tour manager and get the

801
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: fuck out of here.

802
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 1: And in your everyday life, when somebody calls you on

803
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: your shit, are you good with that or not good

804
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: with that?

805
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 2: I'm pretty good with that. I don't have therapy to

806
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 2: be pretty good with that. In fact, you know you

807
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: asked to be called on your shit. You have to

808
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 2: ask because it's hard for people to. You know, somebody's

809
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: standing there buttoned up, wishing that you would change or

810
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: you have to unbutton and I have to hear it.

811
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 1: Okay. In the movie we do see Richard Ferina, it

812
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: does not mention the book he wrote, which is one

813
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: of the most impactful books I've ever read. Been down

814
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: so long it looks like up to me right as

815
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: a freshman in college. What can you tell us about Richard?

816
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: Richard was an interesting guy. He fancied himself a man

817
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: about the world, and in some ways he was. In

818
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: some ways he was a big blowhard. I can tell

819
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: you that he and I for a while would get

820
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: into these we'd have these dinners with Mimi and some friends,

821
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: and Dick and I would get into some goofy story

822
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 2: being East Indians or being whatever, and we go back

823
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: and forth and creating this play, and we realized everybody

824
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: had left because they were bored. It was just Stick

825
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: and me. And then at a certain point, I, you know,

826
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: I sort of got tired of it because Mimi wasn't growing,

827
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: she wasn't happy. And then you know, after he died,

828
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: he lived on with her forever. I mean, she couldn't

829
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: let go o him and he couldn't let go her.

830
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: Now, Mimi had a singing career. To what degree could

831
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: your sisters accept or resent your incredible success?

832
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of that is in the

833
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: film that there were two different reactions Paulling. The older

834
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 2: sister had to just leave. I mean, the closest I

835
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: ever heard her come to saying what she was able

836
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 2: to say in the film was that I sucked up

837
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: the oxygen in the room, and that's why she would

838
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 2: sometimes not be able to share in whatever time they

839
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 2: were having. And then Mimi was more complicated because Mimi

840
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 2: really wanted to be me in some ways, and she

841
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 2: wanted to be a singer, and it's true. And she

842
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: asked me, and I'll never know whether I should have

843
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 2: said absolutely, Mimi, and just back to the whole way.

844
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: I don't even know what that would have meant. But

845
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 2: I told her what I thought was the truth, which

846
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: is that it was going to be a rough road

847
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: with big sister, and it was.

848
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: You're talking about Pauline, your oldest sister, saying you sucked

849
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: up the oxygen before you were famous, before you played

850
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: at Club forty seven. Did you suck up all the

851
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: oxygen in the family.

852
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 2: I think that's a very good question.

853
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: Yes.

854
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: I think the answer is yes. I because Pauline's feelings

855
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 2: would get hurt and I didn't understand why. And then

856
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: later on, as we moved through life, I would see

857
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: that I would get the attention. For instance, when I

858
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: was thirteen, somebody gave me, gave us each a ukulele,

859
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 2: and Pauline went to a room to learn how to

860
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 2: play that because she was, you know, she was a perfectionist.

861
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: And I learned two chords with flying downstairs and sang

862
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 2: a song for everybody. So where does that leave Pauline. No,

863
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 2: there were things like that that happened constantly and I

864
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 2: wasn't really aware of them. I was just aware. I

865
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 2: might have been you know, it might have been competitive

866
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 2: saying well, hah, I did this before she did. But

867
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 2: I think it was more I could now go and

868
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 2: get you know, and get people's attention.

869
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: So what was it about you that you were the

870
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: charismatic one and you wanted all the attention. You're the

871
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: middle child. Usually the oldest child is that person.

872
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I don't know how the

873
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 2: stars lined up for the any of it. It's just

874
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 2: I think that there are genetics. There are the situations

875
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 2: you've I mean, there was Bagdad. We all had this

876
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: huge reaction to Bagdad, which was Mimi was one of

877
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 2: the sisters. Through her taper, she struggled through some papers

878
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: supposed to write and wanted it up and threw it out.

879
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: So this is how Americans think or do their homework.

880
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: And Mimi said that that never left her that kind

881
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: of shattering, and I was just And that's the pictures

882
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: in there in the film, or pictures I did back then,

883
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: beggars and poverty, and that impacted me in a way

884
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: that when I went through my life with those images

885
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: and as part of what I ended up doing what

886
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 2: I was doing, and Mimi and then Pauline, I don't

887
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 2: even really know. Pauline used to find a way to

888
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: say something good about everything, and in the film, I'm saying, yeah,

889
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 2: I don't think I was that easy for me to

890
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: be so jolly about our lives.

891
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: And when you reach a level of success. I was

892
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: just reading the paper before we started. The woman who

893
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: wrote the book made turned into a Netflix series. How

894
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: everybody hit her up for money? What deg we do

895
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: you become the family breadwinner? Do you have to take

896
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: care of your family? Or was it clear of this

897
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: was your money, your life, do your thing.

898
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 2: Oh, I think whenever anybody needed it now, of course

899
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 2: would be there with it. But it's also funny in

900
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: the film, and I'm talking about I made that money

901
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: at the Vespa company, you know, and I came home

902
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 2: not with just the fifteen dollars of my singing, with

903
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 2: a fist full of money and thinking that was, you know,

904
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 2: to make everybody happen through it in the air and

905
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: people could take what they wanted. And of course this

906
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 2: is stupid, you know, But I didn't know that, and

907
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 2: everybody resented me for it. I don't blame them.

908
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like Brian Wilson that he was

909
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 1: the one in the Maelstrom. He has mental problems, but

910
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: he still lives and the brothers are dead. And is

911
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: it just luck of the draw that you're the last

912
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: one standing?

913
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know. You mean out of the whole family, right, Yeah,

914
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. Because you're all strong, We're all physically strong,

915
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 2: and I am physically strong. And it ain't over it

916
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 2: till it's over. No, I have so many relatives who

917
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,760
Speaker 2: died to cancer. So far, I've just been lucky.

918
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: One of the points you make in the movie, which

919
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: resonates so much, is with all these people gone, you

920
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: have all these memories no one can connect with that

921
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 1: no one knows about.

922
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. It's a strange feeling. It's very strange.

923
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 2: You sort of look around and realize nobody is going

924
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 2: to remember that but me. Maybe it's free. I can

925
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 2: remember it the way I want to remember it, and

926
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: nobody's going to contest that. In fact, I've written writing

927
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 2: a book of poetry, I've written a couple of things

928
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: that relate to that that you each of us has

929
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 2: our own perception of whatever happened, and it can be.

930
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: You know that dress was blue? No, I remember exactly.

931
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: It was pink? No, and you do you remember exactly,

932
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 2: And it does nothing to do with what color the

933
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: dress was. It was probably white.

934
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 1: But talking about these people passing, my mother died three

935
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: years ago about this time. My father died long before that.

936
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: But as much as she was an influence on me,

937
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: there was a sense of liberation. So to what degree

938
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: with your parents and your sisters passing, do you feel

939
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: you can be more yourself as opposed to have thinking

940
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: about what their judgment might be.

941
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 2: Oh, it's absolutely For instance, couldn't have made this film

942
00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 2: if they were there. It was too hurtful, too confusing. Yeah,

943
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 2: I'm sure. I'm sure liberated in a lot of ways.

944
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 2: You know, they don't have to worry about you know.

945
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 2: I mean, as I went, I didn't take the film

946
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 2: to show me what my sisters felt. It took it

947
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 2: to really define it. I've never heard them say because

948
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: they would never Pauline would never get in front of

949
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 2: a camera. It was only because she trusted Karen O'Connor.

950
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 2: They'd say, I keep getting the end of the conversation.

951
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 2: What was the question.

952
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: The question was, to what degree was it liberating with you?

953
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 2: Liberating? Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it was. I'm sure it

954
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 2: was liberating, and I hadn't thought of it in those terms,

955
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: miss said, and then it is. There's a piece that

956
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: I didn't have to put the time and energy into

957
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: knowing it was a conflict.

958
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: So how has all this family stuff affected your relationship

959
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: with your son?

960
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: I was just thinking about him. We worked so hard. No.

961
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 2: I thought he was so generous and forgiving and eloquent

962
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 2: in the film, No saying really what it felt like

963
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: to be a lonely little kid. And I what I

964
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 2: learned from my family is that I wasn't nurtured properly,

965
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 2: and so how would I really know? How would I

966
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: know how lonely he felt. I thought I was a

967
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: great mom, you know, I thought everything was hunky Dori,

968
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 2: and that's what happens. And then and then it wasn't.

969
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 2: And we've had time to make up for that as

970
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 2: much as possible. After the film, I decided I was

971
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 2: going to start a bad mothers club, because seriously, I mean,

972
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 2: every mother thinks she was could have done more, did

973
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 2: wrong or so that guilt is something to deal with

974
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. Forgiving oneself seems to really,

975
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 2: by far the hardest thing to do. But Dave, you know,

976
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 2: he helps me with that. We have a wonderful therapist.

977
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 2: And we hit a snag, we just go back, go

978
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 2: back and say can you help us straighten the sound.

979
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: So you married David Harris, you're involved with him, you

980
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 1: marry him, you're pregnant. He goes to jail for a

981
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: long time. He comes out of jail. How do you

982
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: pick up the relationship and what was it like?

983
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 2: Well, first thing comes in my mind is that somebody

984
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 2: who was, say, for instance, a Quaker type, who has

985
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 2: known themselves and seen the world in an open sense

986
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 2: of seeing how unimportant we are as individuals, goes into

987
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 2: jail with a certain mentality. And some guys would just

988
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 2: do it. They'd do their time and come out and

989
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 2: they were okay. For David, it was really, really difficult.

990
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 2: He had no idea. But he was macho, he was

991
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: a guy, this Fresno's Boy of the Year and all

992
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 2: of that was in there. Plus when he was in jail,

993
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 2: they picked on him, you know, because he was a magitator, etc.

994
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 2: And he would be in a strike they throw him

995
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement, and it was very hard for him

996
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 2: to not resent all that after he came out. So

997
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 2: he had a really hard He had a really hard

998
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 2: go of it when he was in prison, and equally

999
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 2: is hard when he came out and we did. We

1000
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 2: had a hard time.

1001
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: But inherently does that separation mean it's hard to pick

1002
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: back up?

1003
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 2: It was for me. I mean, I'm sure for the

1004
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 2: most stable couple, the most quakerly meditative type, it would

1005
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 2: not be easy. But I don't think it had to

1006
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 2: be as difficult as it was with David's nature.

1007
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: Mean what it was now, David was younger than you.

1008
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs was younger than you. Is that just luck

1009
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 1: of the drawer? You like younger men, I like younger men.

1010
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: Can you tell me anything about that?

1011
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: Oh, I'll leave it to your imagination.

1012
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: Okay, then let's just go to the crux of the

1013
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 1: movie is its retirement tour. Most people are never on

1014
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 1: stage in front of thousands of people, that are not

1015
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: in stage in front of tens of people, And what

1016
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: they don't understand is this incredible adrenaline hit that the

1017
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: money is good, but a lot of people they need

1018
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: that hit, so you're on the road for decades and

1019
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 1: now you're off. Do you miss that?

1020
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Not for a second? Is that interesting? I didn't know.

1021
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 2: I had no idea, and that reflect on that in

1022
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 2: the films thing. I don't know what I'll feel like,

1023
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 2: and from what I hear, everybody who quit starts up again.

1024
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 2: But I had a feeling inside that this was it,

1025
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 2: and I managed, I manager, and I planned. It took

1026
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 2: three years to do this properly, and I had a

1027
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 2: strong feeling that that was going to be it. What

1028
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 2: I didn't know is how calm it was to stop.

1029
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 2: And I didn't know how hard I was working until

1030
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 2: I stopped. And as soon as I stopped, I thought,

1031
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 2: how did I do that? I mean in the film,

1032
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 2: how did I do that? Traveling like that? But no,

1033
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 2: I haven't missed it, and I haven't missed the bus either,

1034
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 2: which I thought I would do well.

1035
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: I know people have been on the road for a

1036
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 1: year and a half and it takes them six months

1037
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: to recover. So how long did it take you to

1038
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: find your new normal after you ended?

1039
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 2: Not long. I was already in the studio painting before

1040
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 2: it ended for number of years. So I just as

1041
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 2: though I just took a deep breath and shifted over

1042
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 2: to the art studio.

1043
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: If someone called you and said, oh, we're doing a

1044
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: big piece festival, come out and sing a song, you

1045
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: would say, My.

1046
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 2: Only regret is that I the facility to just get

1047
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 2: up and sing a song is much more limited. So

1048
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 2: yes I can. I'm not really interested to do that,

1049
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 2: but if it's something that really tugs at me, then

1050
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 2: I'll do it. I mean, I went to the Ukraine

1051
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 2: and just sang for kids because it tugged at me,

1052
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 2: you know. But to really join in a musical sense

1053
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 2: takes a lot of work for me.

1054
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: And do you care about legacy or not?

1055
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 2: No? Oh, well the honest legacy. Yeah. Do I care

1056
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 2: about archiving my life? No?

1057
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Joan. I want to thank you for taking this

1058
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: time to speak to my audience and being so honest.

1059
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 2: Hey, thank you. It was fun. I like to make

1060
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 2: you laugh, but.

1061
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 1: I'm laughing now until next time. This is Bob left

1062
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 1: stets