WEBVTT - What the TSA Has Planned for Us 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:02.920 All Zone media. 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.760 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, Welcome back to It Could 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:11.920 Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart and coping 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.560 with dystopia. And one of the first signs of our 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.640 dystopia coming to be was the establishment of the TSA 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.240 and the Department of Homeland Security more broadly, obviously DHS 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.760 much more problematic than just the TSA. We did a 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.000 couple of episodes on them with Behind the Bastards back 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:33.320 in the day. But you know, the TSA came to 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.760 be right after nine to eleven, and both its establishment, 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.480 you know, the seeming necessity of it, and the kind 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.959 of impositions into personal privacy that it made commonplace. We're 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:48.640 both harbingers of the very fucked up era we find 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.800 ourselves in now. And the TSA is an interesting law 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:56.040 enforcement agency to me from the perspective of a normal person. 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.040 I think they're kind of the least objectionable of our 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.520 federal law enforce spin agencies, right They at least, I 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.160 should say, of all of the cops that we have 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.080 in this country, they're the ones you're least likely to 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.160 have a serious problem with, right, Like, they're not real 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.360 cops in the way that most cops are. They don't 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.679 like ticket or arrest you generally, unless you're one of 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.280 the startling number of Americans who gets caught with a 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.880 loaded handgun trying to go through airport security. Mostly, and 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.600 I've flown way more often than I want to remember. 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.920 Mostly my experience with TSA agents is they check your ID, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:31.400 you know, they stare at an X ray machine where 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.480 your shit goes through it. Sometimes they alert and swab 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.000 some stuff. But you know, for me, it's usually not 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:39.240 that big a deal. For most people, I know it's 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.160 not that big a deal obviously, you know, the degree 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.959 to which it's a problem is going to vary widely 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.480 depending on whether or not you're a white dude. But 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:52.320 that said, still less potential for things going horribly violently 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.880 wrong and with a lot of police interactions. So I'll 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.400 give them that. And it's interesting to me that kind 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:02.920 of given this fact, the TSA is so hated, not 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.440 by I think most Americans. I think we're all kind 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:07.680 of frustrated by them. We know, you know, they're not 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.080 great at their jobs. They get caught in tests, letting 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.000 shit through all the time. It's kind of a pain 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:15.799 in the butt. But there's a chunk of Americans who 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.200 fucking hate the TSA, and they hate it because of 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.840 how invasive it is. And it's a little weird if 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.040 you're a regular person, because going through airport security is 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.240 still less invasive than like applying for an apartment, which 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.560 a lot of people do more regularly than they fly, 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.320 or taking a trip to the DMV, which again a 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.799 lot of people do more regularly than they fly. But people, 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.720 you know, with money, upper middle class and rich people, 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.360 that's where you really get most of the hate from 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.560 the TSA. Now, obviously there's some from principled libertarians, and 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.560 I tend to think they have a point there, but 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:52.720 there's a lot of people who really hate the TSA 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.640 specifically because it's kind of the only law enforcement friction 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.760 they deal with on a day to day basis. You know, 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.080 they live in a neighbor hood where they're not getting 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.600 pulled over. You know, the cops their job is not 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.560 to fuck with the people who have money, So the 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:08.720 only time they're going to get padded down and deal 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.320 with that thing that is a pretty common experience for 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.600 Americans and a lot of cities is when they go 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:16.799 through the airport. When they fly, and they also fly 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.760 often because they have more money. So I find myself 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.200 in this interesting position when reporting on the TSA of 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.399 there's real abuses there, there's a lot of real threats there. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.680 The fact that they do get so much up in 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.000 our business and that we've normalized it is an issue. 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.040 And at the same time, like I always know when 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.240 I do something like this, the people who get angriest 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:39.600 about whatever I write about the TSA are going to 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.360 be the worst pieces of shit in the country. So 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.720 it's a fun balancing act. Now, obviously, as I'm trying 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.600 not to gloss over, there are some really good reasons 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.640 to be pissed at the TSA, like this twenty fifteen 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.600 story from Denver of several agents who were caught running 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.400 a groping scam. Basically, one female crew member would point 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.840 out the men that she found attractive, and a colleague 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.680 would signal that person out for a pat down, and 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.680 they basically say, like, oh, it's alerting something around your 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.520 growing or inner thighs, so that like she could bottle them. Essentially, 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.480 Now these people got fired. The TSA went after them 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.280 when they got caught, but who knows how many people 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.680 they groped in the interim period. Video in twenty twenty 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.839 three caught TSA agents at Miami International Airport stealing from 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:27.200 passenger bags in the security lines. There's like footage of it. Obviously, 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.840 the people who do this are going to be very, 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.560 very stupid, because, like you know, as a tsagent, there's 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.760 cameras all over the place. You're in the fucking TSA, 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.440 and the video is just this guy like reaching his 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.080 hand into a bag pulling out cash. It's not hard 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.719 to find headlines that are similar though, going back about 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.240 as long as the TSA has existed, what interests me 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.320 more are the massive violations of privacy and the potential 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.960 involvement of the TSA and their normalization of those invasions 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.520 of privacy has in the expansion of the survey state. 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.719 So this year at CEES twenty twenty four, when we 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.000 found out the TSA had a booth and they were 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.360 there to talk about their new facial recognition scanners, Garrison 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.680 and I had to go check it out, and the 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.599 interview that we conducted is going to kind of be 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.400 the heart of this episode, but I wanted to get 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.720 over a little bit more of a preamble first, So 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:24.360 the TSA started testing facial recognition scanners on a voluntary 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.280 basis at sixteen domestic airports, and I think twenty twenty 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.080 two they expanded it to twenty five airports or so 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.680 last year twenty twenty three, they are in twenty seven now, 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.039 according to what we were told by a representative, and 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:42.560 the goal is for this technology to go nationwide. Obviously, 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.400 not everyone is thrilled with that idea. And I'm going 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.480 to quote from a June twenty twenty three article on 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.400 CBS News. Five US senators sent a letter demanding the 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.680 TSA halt the program. You don't have to compromise people's 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.320 biometric security in order to provide physical security at airports, 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.919 said Senor ed Marky. Pokowski, who is the TSA representative, 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.240 says he agrees with senators and that he wants to 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.880 protect privacy for every passenger. I want to deploy technology 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:14.240 that's accurate and doesn't disadvantage anybody. Privacy advocates worry about 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.880 the lack of regulations around facial recognition and its tendency 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.239 to be less accurate with people of color. Most images 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.520 are deleted after use, but some information is encrypted and retained. 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:26.360 For up to twenty four months as part of the 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.160 ongoing review of how the technology performs. What's left out 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.440 of that article is that the TSA is also allowed 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.440 to maintain biometric data taken from non citizens people entering 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.360 the country from foreign countries, migrants and the like, and 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.720 they're able to keep that and share it. It's kind 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.160 of unclear the extent of that, but they're not bound 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.280 by the same rules with those people that they are 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.280 for citizens. And there are other issues as well, as 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.760 we'll get into. So Garrison and I were with excited 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.360 to have a chance to chat with a TSA representative. 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.000 This guy was less excited to see us, and we 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.400 will get into that story, but before we do, it's 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:16.640 time for an ad break and we're back. So Garrison 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.680 and I show up at the CEES booth and it's 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:21.760 kind of a small one. You might imagine it's about 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.680 the size of like three normal office cubicles. Maybe there's 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.560 a couple of tables. There's like a little podium thing 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:30.760 in the front that's got their logo on it. They 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.960 have some stickers, including one that's like it's like peanut 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.840 butter is a liquid and it's a cartoon of peanut butter, 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.880 which I was informed when I commented on it by 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.280 one of the TSA people that yes, peanut butter is 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.480 a liquid, which is one of those things that it's 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.000 both absurd and also like, well, actually, I don't know 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.120 how else you'd categorize peanut butter if you're the TSA. 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:54.600 So I guess it's something I can't have much of 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.840 an issue with cream. But is a cream different from 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.120 a liquid? I don't know. That's for the philosopher to decide. 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.760 So Garrison and I come up to this booth and 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.320 there's a guy standing behind the pode. I mean, the 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.840 way stuff works at CEES is you have generally a 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.840 mix of actual officers from the company. Sometimes it'll be 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.920 like a CEO or an executive in the case of 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.280 a smaller company. Other times it'll be regular employees or 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.240 like engineers and stuff who can answer technical questions, and 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:24.800 then a bunch of Most of the people that you 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.640 talk to are like pr reps. I don't know who 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:29.280 the guy was that was at the booth when we 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.400 first showed up, because as soon as we said we 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.520 wanted to talk about their facial recognition cameras he saw 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.559 were media, and he instantly did the pr equivalent of 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.520 throwing his buddy on a grenade. He like backed off. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.360 He was like, let me get something for you. He 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.920 pulled his coworker over and then he fucking vanished, And 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:49.600 I'm going to play you a little bit of audio 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:50.160 of that. 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:52.240 We're interested in what you have here in terms of 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:53.079 facial recognition. 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.160 It's the cat too right over there. 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.240 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, what are you saying because I know 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:02.040 right now, like if you've got pre check or oh gosh, 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:03.960 what's the other one the independent company. 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:05.480 That were live on a live interview? 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.200 Now, I thought, so, I mean he came up to 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:09.360 ask to talk to a TSA. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.920 Okay, sure then yeah, sure, hang on just a second. 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:15.960 So the guy we found ourselves in front of was 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.560 our Carter Langston, who is actually the press secretary of 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:21.920 the TSA, and by god, I don't know if I've 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.359 ever seen a man less happy to see me. Eventually 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.320 we started talking, and I have to give Carter credit 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.280 for professionalism. His eyes said I despise you both on principle, 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.920 and I am enraged to be doing this, But his 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:39.280 voice remained calm, even and his responses were to be 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:41.240 quite honest, pretty polished. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.480 I'm kind of interested in sort of how you see 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.880 this altering the way we do air travel over the 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.600 next five ten years, right because obviously, right now people 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.520 are using facial recognition if they have pre check or 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.920 they have I'm spacing the name, but you know the 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.920 independent company that does get you pass the line and 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.240 stuff like they do like facial recognition when you are 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.559 in the airport. Is this something that you see as 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.480 coming more broadly to like everybody going through security in the. 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.720 Future, eventually, eventually. 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.439 So right now it's at twenty seven participating airports, and 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:21.240 it's not at every single we call them travel. 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:22.280 Document Checker podiums. 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:27.559 It's not at every single checker Travel Document checkerdum TDC 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:36.480 for sure, but it is growing and becoming We're deploying 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:42.040 more and more as as funding becomes available for we're 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:51.200 using facial recognition to identify passengers. It's a significant. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.880 Improvement over the. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:58.240 Previous way we were identifying passengers, just with the human interaction, 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:02.720 looking at an high decredidential and looking at it based 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:07.160 on what that individual knows about the fifty states and 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:12.360 territories and how they could what their credentials look like 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.680 the technology actually takes that over and does a much 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:24.600 better job of evalidating the authenticity of that ID. And 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:29.120 then the facial recognition component with a picture still image, 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.000 taking a picture of the passenger standing in front of 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:39.679 the travel document checker podium and then matching that picture 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:44.920 of that person standing there live against the credential photo 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.480 and making the match that way, so we know that 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:56.120 the credential is valid, it's it's true, it's accurate. We 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.319 know that the person standing there is also the person 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:05.080 on the credential. We can verify the boarding status and 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.800 the screening status of that individual and can provide them 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:15.920 with where they should go next for their screening because 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.600 the officer is able to discern based on all of 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.360 the information provided at the back end of the monitor 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:24.320 that they reviewed. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.400 They can see all of those. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.200 Items have been checked, there's a boarding status, and there's 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.680 a screening status, and then just tells the passenger where 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.800 to go to follow up for screening. 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.800 So I'm interested in how someone how someone becomes basically 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.040 enrolled in this right because my assumption is at this point, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.240 just the picture you get when you're getting your driver's 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.320 license or your state ID from the DMV is not 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.200 sufficient for a facial recognition system, right, simply having the 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.760 picture in the government space. You need to have somebody 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.080 to like get their face scaled and their irises scand 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:02.640 or something like that in order to have them in 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:03.160 the system. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.559 Right, it's not in the system at all. 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.439 So with the way we're rolling these out at airports 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:15.640 and check blinds is once a passenger has been identified. 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.320 And that. 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.800 And goes into screening, all of the information that was 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:28.480 captured is gone. We don't store any of the pictures 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.960 participation right now, it's completely volatile. 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:32.079 UH. 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.760 Their signage right there at the. 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:42.480 Checker podium UH to indicate that passengers can opt out, 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.839 they don't have to participate it and all that. All 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:51.360 it happens at that point is the same officer will 0:13:51.720 --> 0:14:03.000 UH will turn basically over to the alternative process, review 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:08.319 the ID, review the boarding pass and allow the passenger. 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.199 To continue too easy. 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.360 So if you don't lose their place in line, and 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.720 they don't, they're not delayed in any way from getting 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:18.880 screen But. 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.000 In terms of like the people who choose to use it, right, 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.560 So if you if you're in this system, is it 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.680 literally just comparing your face to the face on the 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.160 I D. You're not like enrolled separately the way you 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.560 are if you are in like pre check or somewhere. 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:34.840 Okay, No, it's not. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:40.680 There's not a database associated mats and so no, that's 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:45.800 that's not our use. Now, some of the airlines have 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.600 partnered with us, they saw benefit in it, and they're 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:56.320 using similar technology for backdrop for their Frequent Flyer Miles 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:03.560 program participants. So that is there's a database associated with 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.400 that obviously, and so those. 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.520 Passengers are company. 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:16.040 Have an entirely different experience. But the way that we're 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:21.240 using it at the checkpoint, as I just said, for 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:23.120 identity verification. 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.680 God n you caught that right how he says participation 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.560 is voluntary right now. Well, I hadn't come across this 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.600 information at the time, but afterwards I read a fascinating 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.080 Washington Post article from last summer about Portland Senator Jeff Murkley. 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.960 Jeff Murkley says that when he was trying to make 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.640 a flight at Reagan International Airport, he was told that 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.400 if he didn't verify his ID via face scanner, he 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.280 would face a significant delay. Quote from the article. There 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.840 was no delay, the spokeswoman said the senator showed his 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.600 photo ID to the TSA agent in cleared security, so 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.400 basically he was lied to. Somebody lied and said, you're 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.560 going to if you don't want to like delayed and 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.080 maybe miss your flight, you have to submit to a 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.720 face scan, which is one of the things that privacy 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.760 advocates were worried about from the beginning. But you know what, 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.280 privacy advocates aren't worried about the products and services that 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:27.920 support this podcast and we're back, So I think when 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.440 it gets right down to it, the silliest part of 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.640 all of this to me is that the TSA isn't 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.760 even claiming they need to run faces through like some 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.160 futuristic database of terrorists, right like they want to scan 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.200 our faces so they know if this like bad guy 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.160 they're tracking is in the airport in disguised using a 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.120 fake passport or something that's not actually what it does. 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.480 Facial recognition the TSA is using right now at least 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.520 just takes the place of the TSA guy. You hand 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.000 your ID before you go put your shit in bins, 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.640 right like, you know, you go up and before you 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:01.400 can go take your stuff out of your bags and 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.040 put it in those bins. You hand a guy your license, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.560 sometimes your license and boarding pass, he looks at it 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:08.040 in your face. If you wear at a mask, he 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:09.840 tolls you to take it down for a second and 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:11.639 then he lets you go in. Right, that's what the 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:16.000 facial recognition scanners are actually doing here. That Washington Post 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.720 article also cites an anti facial recognition activist, Tijuana Petty, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:21.840 who says that she was told by a TSA agent 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:26.120 at the same airport, Reagan, that undergoing facial recognition scanning 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.119 was not optional. So people are already being told this 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.400 is a requirement. And obviously, as a spoiler for where 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.720 this goes, the bigger, deeper question is like how long 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:38.320 is that going to be the case? 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:38.840 Right? 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.280 So you know that's kind of the big concern, right, 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.200 is that they're saying it's optional now, it obviously won't 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.040 be forever, and some people are just going to be 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.440 told they don't have a choice, Like that's kind of bullying, 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.440 strong arming people, threatening that they'll miss their flight if 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.240 they don't submit to it, which makes me extra suspicious 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.159 about their data retention. Right, And that is the question 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.680 we asked as the interview went on, where is the TSAs? 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.840 But where is the TSA's biometric data or really, where 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:10.040 is passenger biometric data actually going to go once the 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:11.040 TSA has it? 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.879 In terms of the just information storage is there? I 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.960 know I've been seeing more of these like signs the 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.320 more that I travel. I do it decent traveling for 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.920 these for these sorts of systems. And I'm curious with 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:29.080 how this works for non US citizens if because I 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.560 know there's there's certain at least in some of the 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.880 technology that's being used by customers of border patrol. They 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.439 do store images captured of non US citizens for a 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:39.240 certain time period. 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:40.640 They do take pictures. 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.000 Of US citizens when entering the country, and lots of 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.240 lots of airports. Are are these two systems interacting at all? 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.760 Or is the TSA system and customers about customs and 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.879 voter patrol system more separated? 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.000 Well, first of all, I can't speak for Customs and 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:00.679 Border protection, but I can tell you that we're we 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.040 have two very different use cases. So their use case 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.399 is very much oriented in the customs arena, and then 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.400 ours is as I just. 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.720 Mentioned, at the checkpoint. 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:19.320 And solely for the identity verification and if an international 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.720 passenger comes in with a credential. 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:26.800 That identifies them. 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:32.480 Then the unit would obviously accept that credential. 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.439 It's a photo, it's a photo credential. 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.679 So again, all that the system would do is validay 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.200 that that person on that credential is also the same 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.479 person that's standing right there in front of the travel 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:47.760 document checker. 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.840 Okay, most of you are probably aware of this, but 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.600 the TSA actually does not have a good record of 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.480 protecting private data. Now this is not old Man Robert 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.920 being a libertarian, it's just documented history. The TSA INDI 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.320 claimed their full body scanners, which took what are essentially 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.200 naked pictures of passengers, never stored photos and couldn't transmit them. 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:09.639 But in twenty ten this was revealed to be a 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.240 lie when we gained access to documents that included technical 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:17.840 specifications and vendor contracts which indicated the TSA required vendors 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.800 of these scanners to provide equipment that can store and 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.399 send images of screen passengers. Now this was supposed to 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.879 only be in testing mode, but if it can store 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:29.359 and send images of screened passengers, it can store and 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.240 send images of screened passengers. In twenty twelve, a former 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.760 TSA agent accused his coworkers of saving nude body images 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.639 of passengers from the body scanner and making fun of 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.440 them in back rooms. He said that safeguards were put 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.880 in place to ensure the agents manning the scanners never 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.600 saw the people they were scanning outside of the scanner, 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:52.240 but that these policies were frequently violated. Basically, every privacy 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.520 policy they had was frequently violated by agents so that 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.280 they could make fun of people's dicks. Right, that's the story. 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:02.000 The TSA retired its old scanners the next year, replacing 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.840 them with a device that showed less detail and particularly 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.359 provided agents with less clear looks at people's dongs. In 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.680 twenty twenty one, a TSA agent in Minneapolis was accused 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.280 by airport police of taking dozens of photos of young 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.720 women going through flight screening. The TSA's record here, both 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.199 in terms of the agency itself and in terms of 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:24.280 its employees, is certainly not worse than numerous police departments 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.000 right or the FBI. This is something to keep in mind. 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.840 As frustrating as all this stuff is, literally every local 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:35.720 and city law enforcement agency has worse cases, and by gods, 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.280 so do the FEDS could make a case that as 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.280 frustrating as a lot of this is the TSA is 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.399 less of a threat to privacy than most other federal 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.760 law enforcement agencies. But that's beside the point. For one thing, 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.200 normalizing facial recognition technology in the airports is a step 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:54.400 towards normalizing it everywhere. The data that is gathered will 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:58.600 not always be deleted, and more to the point, there's 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:00.359 no way to know that the system isn't going to 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.760 expand in directions that we all find deeply uncomfortable as 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:05.520 it goes on. That's why you kind of have to 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.240 nip this stuff in the bud, especially since they're not 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.200 really promising extra security here. When you look at the 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:14.480 scandals of the TSA, a lot of it has to 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.040