1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. 2 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 2: Hey, friends, Jackie and I just returned from crime Con, 3 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: where we were able to discuss before a live studio 4 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: audience the death of Ellen Greenberg. One of the great 5 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: things about attending crime Con is that you're able to 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: interact with like minded people that are interested in forensics 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: and death investigation. During our visit at crime Con this 8 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: past weekend, Jackie and I were able to sit down 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: with a live studio audience and discuss in detail the forensics. 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks. Let's take 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: a listen. Jackie and I've been talking about a case 12 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: for quite a while now, and I'd say this case 13 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: has probably gotten into our heart, certainly gotten into our mind, 14 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 2: and kind of captured the attention of the entire country. 15 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: And it's something that we've covered together. We become friends, 16 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: I guess our acquaintances, at least with the family Jackie 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 2: in particular. But today we're going to talk about Ellen Greenberg. 18 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg, Jackie, what can't you tell us about Ellen? 19 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: Ellen Greenberg was a teacher. She worked in an elementary school. 20 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 3: Her kids loved her, and she was a bride to be. 21 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 3: She was so excited, she had just sent out to 22 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: save the dates on her wedding and she was found 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 3: in her home, in her apartment, stabbed more than twenty 24 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 3: times in her front, in her back, and it was 25 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 3: ruled a suicide. 26 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 4: Twenty two stab runs to her back, her. 27 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: Head, her tour so and again it was classified as 28 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 3: a suicide. 29 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 4: And Joe, I've got so many questions for you. 30 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: People don't normally stab themselves in a suicide, do they know? 31 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 4: Not common? 32 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: No, it's not. 33 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: And you know, going back years and years Jackie Id, 34 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: you know, working with the Corner in New Orleans and 35 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: then working with Emmy in Atlanta, all of the years 36 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: that I was in my profession, I have to say 37 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: that I think maybe I remember two cases where I 38 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: had self inflicted stab wounds, and both of those cases 39 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: involved somebody that was in a severe psychotic moment. As 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: a matter of fact, one of the individuals was a 41 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: young man that was paranoid, schizophrenic that was off of 42 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: his medication. And when I say paranoid, he's paranoid. He 43 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: was actually looking for a microphone in his forearm that 44 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: he thought the CIA had planted that gives you an idea. 45 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: You know, they talk a lot in this case about 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: pain centers. This this guy actually took a knife and 47 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: opened his arm thirty two separate times that we could 48 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 2: count before he finally bled out. But can you actually 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: call that a suicide? So to frame this, it's very rare, 50 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 2: And just so you understand my background where I come 51 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: from in the medical legal world, which is not I 52 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 2: don't have a narrow spectrum of looking at simply homicides. 53 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 2: We at Medical Examiners Corner's office, we're interested in all deaths, 54 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: all five all five manners, you know, homicide, suicide, accidental, natural, undetermined. 55 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 2: All of that is intellectually stimulating to us, and we 56 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: have to make those determinations. But Jackie, you know, contrary 57 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: to what sealed television you see all these gruesome homicides 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: out there, did you know that most people at medical 59 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: examiner's offices and coroners offices we handle a three to 60 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: one suicides to homicides. 61 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: We are absolute. 62 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: I don't claim to be an expert in much, but 63 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: when it comes to suicide investigation, it's. 64 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: Our Baileywick that's what we do. 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 2: We look into suicides all the time and Actually they're 66 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: more difficult than homicides because many times you just don't 67 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: have a witness, you don't have a note. 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: That's atypical. 69 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: But in Ellen's case, I got to tell you over 70 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: twenty sharp force injury shoes sustained, including if everybody will 71 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: place your hand on your right parietal area, this large 72 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: bone right in this area and make a motion downward 73 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: just like this, generally about three to four inches. There 74 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: was a large, gaping, in sized wound right here, almost 75 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: like someone had taken a blade and just drug it 76 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: all the way down to the bone. That's what I'm 77 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: talking about. I mean, how many of you guys in 78 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: the audience have actually ever hit your head on something. 79 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 2: You know, you raise up too quick and you realize 80 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: how painful that is. Ellen had this injury, not to 81 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 2: mention a flurry of injuries in her back, in her chest. 82 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: The knife was found buried here. She even had two 83 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: stab wounds, two stab wounds that went into her spinal proceeds. 84 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: One even touched even touched the dura, which is the 85 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: sleeve that covers the spinal cord, and there was no hemorrhage. 86 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 2: You guys are amateur sluice. Many of you know what 87 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: that means. If there's no hemorrhage, what does that tell us? 88 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: That's probably a post mortem injury. So that's what we're 89 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: dealing with in this class, in this case. And just 90 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: so that you know, this case has been ruled a suicide. 91 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: So I think you actually had it right when you 92 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 3: called it this class because you're going to teach them 93 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 3: bubble bnch. 94 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 4: So let's look at how she was stabbed. We know 95 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 4: she was in her kitchen. She was making a fruit salad. 96 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 3: So if you look at an instrument, the knife that 97 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 3: you would use to cut a fruit salad, you're looking 98 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 3: at a pairing knife, very knife, Yeah, a kitchen knife. 99 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 4: If you're at my house, you're using a regular kitchen knife. 100 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 4: What kind of a blade? 101 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 3: We know they found one and you're going to talk 102 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 3: about that in a minute, But what kind of a 103 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: blade is it. 104 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 4: Going to take. 105 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: Let's just say this injury in her head. What kind 106 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 3: of blade is it going to take to make that 107 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 3: kind of an injury? 108 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: Well, first off, it's going to take a tremendous amount 109 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 2: of pressure and you have to be committed to it. 110 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: This is not something that you just It's not a 111 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: superficial kind of a braided area that you're looking at. 112 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 2: You're literally talking about, and we know it's not blunt 113 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: force trauma because that's a strike. Blunt force, you get 114 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 2: a laceration. People don't understand the difference between lacerations and 115 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 2: in sized wounds. A laceration results from blunt force trauma, 116 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: and you'll get something that's called tissue bridging, where the 117 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: skin actually begins to kind of tear apart a little bit, 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: and you get these little sinewy pieces of tissue that 119 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: aren't clean cut like you get with a milled blade. 120 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: This is actually a sharp force injury. The knife that 121 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: was buried in her chest was actually i think the 122 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: eight eight inch eight inch or six inch eight inch. 123 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: It was an eight inch serrated steak knife, or a 124 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: knife that could be used as a carving knife. It 125 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: was separate from the actual steak knives, but it was 126 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: a serrated edge that gives a very particular opinion of appearance. 127 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: The knife block, the knife block that you have in 128 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: the kitchen was actually overturned. It still only had three 129 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: knives in it. There were still two knives in the 130 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: sink and there was water in there. One blade to 131 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: me when I saw the crime scene, images looked like 132 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: it had blood on it. 133 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 1: And it was a smooth edged knife. 134 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: It was like a butchering knife like you would carve 135 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 2: a turkey with, for instance. And then of course she 136 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: had the serrated blade that's buried in her chest. And 137 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: you know, talking, I've got to I gotta go down 138 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: this road just a second, because many people think, you know, 139 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: when you think about a suicide, most people think, well, 140 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: what would be the quickest, least painful way to go 141 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: about this? And Jackie made a fantastic point. She's cutting 142 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: up a fruit salad. There were blueberries, there were those 143 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: little bitty oranges, and there were a couple of other 144 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: items that were there that were in the sink that 145 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: she had been cutting and it struck me. I began 146 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: to think about this as I began to examine this case. Okay, 147 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: so you're standing at the sink and suddenly you decide, 148 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: you know what, I think, this is an excellent time 149 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: to stab myself over twenty times. And it was absolutely 150 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: mind blowing to me. And when I say that, you know, 151 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: I talked about how infrequent these cases happen. You know, 152 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: you think about gunshot one in the head. That's very 153 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: frequent in suicides. Most people think that it's going to 154 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: be say, for instance, number two is going to be 155 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: like an od that's not. In my little slice of 156 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: the world, it has consistently been hanging very frequently, and 157 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 2: it's not. They don't have to be suspended. You get 158 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: various types of hangings that occur. And what do we 159 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: all have in our home? Well, some of you guys 160 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: are wearing belts. I've seen people do it with a 161 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 2: pair of jeans, sheets, all kinds of things. Hangings very 162 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: very common. Then we have people that well O D 163 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: certainly right, and then you have carbon monoxide. 164 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: Way way down on the. 165 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: List is a self inflicted stab one twenty of them. 166 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 4: Okay, but I got a I got a really good question. 167 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, you said that this wound here was a three 168 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 3: to four inch gash. Okay, what kind of a knife 169 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 3: are you going to have that's going to make a 170 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 3: gash like that? 171 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 4: Well, it would have give it, Okay, all right, because 172 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 4: if you went through the bone, it's bone. You're not 173 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 4: just going to go stab and pull because you can't 174 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 4: do that through bone. 175 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: Correct, No, And it didn't actually go into bone. It 176 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 2: kind of glided over the surface, but it went This 177 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: is what we call in forensics to this is what's 178 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: referred to as a full thickness injury. So if you begin, 179 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: if you just touch your scalp right now and kind 180 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: of distresses and you can. 181 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: Take your move, your scalp around you is going to 182 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: be deep. That's why as a person will literally. 183 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 4: The other point that you brought up a minute ago 184 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 4: was the fact that there was a blade in the scene. 185 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 3: That you think and it's kind of going that you 186 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 3: opine as you say that had blood on it, and 187 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 3: then we have I've given mentioned it earlier. 188 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 4: But when Ellen was. 189 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 3: Found, she still had a blade in her chest. Okay, now, 190 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 3: given that there were two blades, is she going to 191 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 3: stab herself for a while. 192 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 4: And go, oh wait a minute, let me change blades here? 193 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, I got to tell you 194 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: this is what I think that her body her body 195 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: was found. Look, they throw all kinds of fancy terms 196 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: at you. Here's a fancy medical term that some of 197 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: you may have not heard. Maybe you have, I know, 198 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: I've got people in medicine here. They use the term supine, 199 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: and supine essentially means face up. Okay, that she wasn't 200 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 2: in a classic classically supine. It's kind of what they 201 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 2: refer to as a modified position, where she is in 202 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: her kitchen against she's got if you imagine your cabinets 203 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: at home, she's got a lazy Susan in one of 204 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: the corners. She's kind of leaning up against this in soupine, 205 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: which means she's face up, but her shoulders in the 206 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 2: back of her head are contacting the surface like this, 207 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: so she's kind of slid down. You you mentioned uses 208 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: of multiple blades. The blood really doesn't extend out any 209 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: further than this location where she was found. You've got 210 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: some contact blood that's there. You've got some swipes that 211 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: are there and very interesting. You've got these kind of 212 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: gravitational drops of blood that kind of are on the 213 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: outer perimeter. You can see these. They're very striking the 214 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: outer perimeter of her body. And this is consistent with 215 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: somebody or an individual that is standing there. Just imagine, 216 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: I mean of you guys, have ever had bloody nose? 217 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: Bloody nose an audience have a bloody nose and she's like, 218 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: oh my god, I got a bloody nose, And the 219 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: first your first thing is not to like sling your 220 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 2: head around. 221 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: Many people will stand still. 222 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: And if you look at the blood, how it drops, 223 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 2: drops directly down, blood drops in a sphere, and then 224 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: when it impacts, you'll have this kind of deepend upon 225 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: the surface it hits. It'll have kind of a modified 226 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 2: circular shape to it. If it's going straight down, this 227 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: doesn't have a lot of energy. You've got multiple of 228 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: these drops, and it's almost consistent. Let me stand up 229 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 2: just a second with an individual standing with a bloody 230 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: blade in their hand and standing in this position. If 231 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: you've ever had a paint brush in your hand and 232 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: it's wet with paint, how it drips down the same principle, 233 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: and it lines the body all the way around here. 234 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: And this is outside of her body. She never touched it. 235 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: It was away from her body. So how exactly did 236 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: that happen? And when you've got this many injuries, can 237 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: you imagine the pain that she was experiencing. You would 238 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: think that she would be thrashing around, there'd be blood 239 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 2: contact all over the place. 240 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: It was limited to that location. 241 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 3: Well, I got another point about where she was again. 242 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 3: She was sitting in her kitchen, leaned up against the countertop. 243 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 3: If I am stabbing myself, Am I just gonna sit 244 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: down and say? Okay, I'm gonna sit here. 245 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 4: While I die. 246 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I just can't imagine that all of a 247 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: sudden she just decided to sit down. 248 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: You know, that's an excellent point. 249 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: But I got to back up just a second, because 250 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: when you really begin to think about this, why is 251 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 2: it that you would choose to do this in this 252 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: particular place and use this methodology? Because it's no secret 253 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: Ellen was under a lot of pressure. You know, she 254 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: just sent out wedding invitations. She was a school teacher. 255 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: Lord knows, that's enough pressure in the world. I'm married one. 256 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: I know. It's it's God bless all the teachers out there, 257 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: God bless y'all. But she had anxiety. She was on 258 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 2: multiple different types of anti anxiety medication. 259 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: And you think she had wine? Why not? 260 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 2: I mean, what do they always tell you don't mix 261 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: drugs and wine. And you've got anti anxiety medication, why 262 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: not just take a handful of these pills and watch 263 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: it down with Chardonnay or whatever it is that you have. 264 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: Why is it that you're going to take a blade 265 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: and drive it into your body multiple times, and your intent, 266 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: according to the authorities, is to take your own life. 267 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: Let me tell you something, with knife wounds, there are 268 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: no guarantees because you don't know, you don't know if 269 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: you're going to strike a vital area. And a lot 270 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: of the injury she has, she's got multiple superficial injuries 271 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: where it looks like the tip of the blade has 272 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: been driven just under her skin and hell there just 273 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: for a minute, and these populate her back, they populate 274 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: her chest. And I hadn't even gotten to one of 275 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: the most gruesome injuries she has, which other than this, 276 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: and of course the ones in the back of her skull, 277 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: she had been stabbed in her liver. Now, if you'll 278 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: take your right hand and find the bottom of your 279 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: rib cage on the right side, Okay, that approximates the 280 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: location of your liver. Now, the liver is one of 281 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: the most vascular organs in the body. So if you 282 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: insult this area, the moment you insult that area, you 283 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: will get an infusion of blood. It doesn't have the 284 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: ability you think, well, there's a hole in the body. 285 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: It doesn't. Literally, your internal organs will be floating in blood. 286 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: When we open bodies up, for instance, that have liver injuries, 287 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: copious amounts of blood occupy the abdominal cavity. But not 288 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: only that, when she stabbed herself or was stabbed or 289 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: it just happened by miracle, I don't know. This injury 290 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: in her chest, not only does it clip the order 291 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: of her heart, the major vessel that comes off, it 292 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 2: also got the upper left lobe of her lung on. 293 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: So now she's got what's referred to as plural effusion. 294 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: So she's leaking out blood into her plural spaces and 295 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: essentially her lungs are being compromised. 296 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: Her ability to breathe, it's being compromised. So it's in this. 297 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: The more blood that comes out, the more labored this becomes. 298 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 4: Okay, I'm going to pull a Nancy Grace on you. 299 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, what he just said was her body cavity 300 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 3: was filling up with blood, not her lungs filling up 301 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: with blood, and that was what was keeping her from 302 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 3: being able to breathe, not that her lungs were full 303 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: of blood. 304 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And this is uh, there's another 305 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: fancy term Nancy. Nancy hates these terms. When I throw 306 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: them out, we call it exanguination. It's a fancy term 307 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: for bleeding out, and you bleed out internally, and that's 308 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: that's what's happening to her. Just imagine she's kind of 309 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: slipping into this kind of milky semi conscious state because 310 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: she's not what does our brain require oxygenated blood? Well, 311 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: you've clipped a order which is just pumping out huge 312 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 2: volume of blood, even the smallest little nick because of 313 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 2: all of that pressure. 314 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: That's involved when this is going on. 315 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 2: So the chest cavity's filling up with blood, she's bleeding 316 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: out of her what did we say, her liver? Right, 317 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: what's happening with what's happening with the brain all this time? 318 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: Becoming disoriented, just kind of slipping off into unconscious. But 319 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 2: you know, the thing about it is is that there 320 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: would have been such a level of excruciating pain with 321 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: all of these insults that she has sustained all of 322 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,239 Speaker 2: these injuries. You really think, how did how was she 323 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: capable when her BP is dropping the level of oxygenated 324 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: blood and her body is dropping, how is. 325 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: She able to go ahead and facilitate all of this? 326 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: It's striking, isn't it. 327 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 3: One of the other things I want to talk about 328 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 3: in the kitchen before we go on and talk about 329 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 3: some really interesting things with those stab wounds. Is the 330 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 3: fact that when the police looked at her body, there 331 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 3: was a line of blood. Okay, and as Joe's been describing, 332 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 3: she's sitting up, So you would think that that line 333 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 3: of blood on her face would be like this, it's not. 334 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 4: It's horizontal. So I don't know about laws of gravity much. 335 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 3: Joe, you can take over here, but it really not 336 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 3: plausible that that if. 337 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 4: She was in this position, that she has this kind 338 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 4: of blood line. 339 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got blood that's emanating from the external ear 340 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: canal here. And it gives us pause to think as 341 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: an investigator when you show up at a scene and 342 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: you see blood streaked and the opposite direction in which 343 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 2: the body is observed or appreciated at that point toime, 344 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: it gives us pause to think, well, was she capable 345 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 2: of moving or did somebody move her body after death? 346 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 2: And the orientation of the blood and the original flow 347 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 2: of the blood was compromised, So it presents in a 348 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: different a different viewpoint when you take a look at 349 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 2: it and you think you can't explain when you look 350 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 2: at it, but you think this has to be explained because, 351 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 2: as we all know, and I can confirm this, I've 352 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: been around a lot of dead bodies. Dead bodies don't 353 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: just get up and move themselves. So you have to 354 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: ask a question, was she still alive at that point? 355 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 2: Was she in some kind of perry mortem state, that's 356 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: that moment between anti mortem and post mortem where you're. 357 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: In the throes of death. 358 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: But would she still have had the ability to move 359 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: around at that point time. I've seen people thrash it scenes. 360 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: I've seen people bathe in blood as a result of 361 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: gunshot wounds, multiple gunshot ones. 362 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: But with her, there's none of that. 363 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 2: You don't have like this super saturated scene here, it's 364 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 2: absent some things. 365 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 4: But here's the other point of that. 366 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 3: If she had still been able to move, which means 367 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 3: her heart would have still been pumping, which means this 368 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 3: blood would still be flowing, so that when she set up, 369 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 3: if she had been lying down, then this blood should 370 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: have not been dry and would have ran down. 371 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: The side of her It would have ran down the 372 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: side of her face or maybe depend upon how she's oriented, 373 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: down to the back of her head. So you can 374 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: only speculate at that point in time as to what 375 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: may have taken place in that kind of nebulous moment 376 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: that no one can seem to peg down here, and 377 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 2: the investigators were never able to actually peg down that 378 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: at the scene and do a sufficient job of explaining. 379 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 2: And the only sign at the scene of any kind 380 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: of force entry that it's taking place was And keep 381 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: in mind, this is on the sixth floor of an 382 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: apartment building in Philly. 383 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: There's snow on the ground outside. As a matter of fact, 384 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: there have just been a snowstorm, and no balconies and 385 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: no balcony. 386 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: There's like a window that you can look out and 387 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 2: kind of it's not even a Juliette balcony. There's like 388 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 2: an area where you can kind of hold on and 389 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 2: look down. There's no footprints in the snow down below. 390 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 2: So whoever gained access to this apartment came through the 391 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: door one entryway, Yeah, and there's one entryway in this environment. 392 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: There's nothing stolen, there's no signs of struggle. We don't 393 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: have broken furniture. All of the valuables were there. Keys 394 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: are there, pocketbook is there, money is there. Everything is there. 395 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 2: There's no indication that there was anything nefarious relative to 396 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: property theft that was going on here. 397 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 3: So let's talk about the elephant in the room, the 398 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 3: stab wounds. We certainly want to address the feather or not. 399 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 3: This one major stab wound in her neck was done 400 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 3: before she. 401 00:21:58,640 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 4: Died or after she died. 402 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 3: The thing that keeps getting me as we talk about 403 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 3: this case is the fact is if you look, I 404 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 3: can barely reach around to the back of my head. 405 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 4: How do you stab yourself in the back? 406 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 3: At number one, some of these injuries work upward. They 407 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 3: were not like you're holding a knife and stabbing yourself 408 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 3: in this manner. Some of them are done upwards. Yeah, 409 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 3: how long does. 410 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 4: Your arm have to be to be able to do this? 411 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 4: And how flexible? I couldn't do it? 412 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: Well, here's the key to this. And when you review the. 413 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: Autopsy report, the forensic pathologists, they never measured her arms. 414 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 2: And one of the things that we do at autopsy 415 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: is that you do a measurement from essentially his shoulder 416 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: to the acf say anti cupital fossil right here in 417 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 2: the end of your arm. Then you do a measurement 418 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: from the shoulder to the wrist, from the shoulder to 419 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: the fingertips. Now, wouldn't you guys think that if you're 420 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: talking about somebody that had self inflicted over twenty stab ones, 421 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 2: that you would have arm measurements. You would know what 422 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: the dominant hand was. None of this stuff comes up 423 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: at autopsy. It's never measured, it's never examined. I want 424 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: everybody to extend your dominant hand. What's your dominant hand? 425 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: Stick it out and try to reach over your shoulder 426 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: and self just at pleast. This is horrible, but just 427 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 2: imagine make the stabbing motion and think about holding an 428 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 2: eight inch blade and trying to inflict down your spine, 429 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 2: your shoulder blades and then a couple of really deep 430 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: injuries into the back of the neck that actually communicate 431 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: with a spinal column. 432 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: How is that possible? How can you actually do that? 433 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: And then you know the thing about the thing about 434 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: the dead after they have left the autopsy room, after 435 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: the funeral home has come and pick them up, Elvis 436 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: has left the building. We're in Vegas, right, Elvis has 437 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 2: left the building. At that point in time, either the 438 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: body is going to be embalmed and buried you can't 439 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 2: examine the body again, or the body has been cremated 440 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 2: even worse, you can't go back and kind of. 441 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: Retroactively take a look at this. And this is a 442 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: big miss in this case. 443 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 3: It is plus with Ellen's religious beliefs. Her body was 444 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 3: handled in death very quickly. 445 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: Very very quickly. Ellen's family is Jewish, and so one 446 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: of the tenants and it varies. I've worked in many 447 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: cases involving individuals that were Jewish, and the idea is 448 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: to have the body buried before sunset, and so everything 449 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: has to happen very very quickly in cases like this, 450 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: and so that compromises your ability in order to glean 451 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: as much information as you can and collect as much evidence. 452 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: As you can. 453 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 3: This idea that the neck wound that would have severed 454 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 3: her spon her spinal cord. We have expert testimony that 455 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 3: this happened after she died post mortem. 456 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: Explain, Yeah, there was kind of a slip of the 457 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: lip when the family began. 458 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: To depose people. 459 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: In this case, they had an associate medical examiner that 460 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: worked for the same autopsy, for the same medical examer's 461 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: office that had actually done the autopsy, and she just 462 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: happened to say, well, in my opinion, this autopsy, this 463 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: insult that she had sustained to her spinal cord. That's 464 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: a post mortem injury. There's no focal areas of hemorrhage. 465 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: And it's one of those moments in time where I 466 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: think that probably they wanted to have you ever done 467 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: something in your life where you feel like, wow, I 468 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: wish I could get that. 469 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: Back just for a second. 470 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: I think that in this case they wish that they 471 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: had gone back and been able to grab that. But 472 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: it's out there, it's floating about. And this isn't just 473 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 2: some kind of random physician. This is a board certified 474 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 2: forensic pathologist made this determination that actually said that this 475 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 2: is a post mortem insult that she has sustained. So again, 476 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: you're left to have to explain, to have to explain 477 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: how does this young woman sustain these types of injuries 478 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: and how do they happen without any manifestation of hemorrhage 479 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: in this particular area. And at the end of the day, 480 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: it's kind of chilling to boot. I think doctor Cyril 481 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: Weck and another physician got involved and began to examine 482 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: the reports, everything that was left behind, and one physician 483 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: it wasn't doctor Weck, but well doctor Weck. He said 484 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: that look he said, out of all the cases that 485 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 2: I've handled, this is inconsistent with a suicide. You just 486 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 2: in doctor Weck, God bless him, He's handled more cases 487 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: than anybody. This other physician that looked at it also 488 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: made an interesting point as well. He said in reviewing 489 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: the autopsy images and the reports, he noted that there 490 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: were focal areas of hemorrhage on the neck and what 491 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 2: he believed was actually a fingernail mark on the neck, 492 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: which is very which is very unique. If you will 493 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: take your fingers most people don't ask you to do 494 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 2: this and look down the long axis of your fingernail. 495 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: People talk about scratch marks on bodies. I'm gonna give 496 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: you a real quick tutorial here. You look at the 497 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 2: tips of your fingers, and you see how they're crescent 498 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 2: shaped like this, so that when there is an impression 499 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 2: that is made, say for a contact with a fingerprint mark, 500 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: it's going to leave a crescent shape in that area. Now, 501 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 2: in addition to that, if there is a fight going on, 502 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 2: I equate it to a plow running over an unplowed 503 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 2: feel you'll get kind of the furrowing that takes place 504 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 2: where you look and you'll see these so called scratch marks. 505 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons why at autopsy on the 506 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: deceased we do nail trimmings, We do nail scrapings, and 507 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: then we do nail trimmings, and all that stuff can 508 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: go in and be examined for skin and any kind 509 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 2: of DNA. But you know, I think that it would 510 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 2: have been very, very important at that point in time 511 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: that anybody that had had contact with Ellen's body, anybody, 512 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: anybody in the immediate circle, should have looked at their fingernails. 513 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 2: You should have looked at their hands to see if 514 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 2: there were any kind of defensive ones on any potential 515 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: perpetrators here. And to that point, I don't I don't 516 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 2: know that that's ever been done. 517 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 3: What about any slice marks on her hand, because if 518 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 3: she is stabbing herself, you know, the knive's gonna get slippery, 519 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: and it's possible as you are stabbing, the knife slips 520 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 3: on the handle and she might have cut herself. 521 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: Were there are any of that, No, you can't appreciate that. 522 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: But there was one other thing that they did find, 523 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: and that was on the upper arm. There were fresh 524 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: contusions there as well. 525 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: Ruses. 526 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 3: Yeahs, yes, yes, you're right. 527 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: And one of the things we do. One of the 528 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: things we do with contusions, and this is very important 529 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: for any of you guys that like child abuse investigations. 530 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: One of the things that my colleagues in that field do, 531 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: we do things called aging of bruises. Everybody's had a bruise. 532 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: If it's red and swollen, you know, that's kind of recent. 533 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: It goes to that kind of black color, blue color, 534 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 2: and that's two to three days out and then it 535 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: turns that slimy yellow, then the green, and then it resolves. 536 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: And there were injuries on her, but they were at 537 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: different ages, Jackie, she had insults on her arm, on 538 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: her leg that were at different ages. 539 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 4: Okay, how are we going to know that? 540 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 3: Again? 541 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 4: I mean, well again, we're going to know. 542 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 2: And they're grading these, they're looking at these and because 543 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: of the color, the color changes. That means that the 544 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: body is healing all right, and you're going to get 545 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 2: these different points of color along this healing continuum that 546 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: it'll change. So when we go to grade these injuries, 547 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: we look at them and it can kind of give 548 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: us a timetable list to what's going on in that 549 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: person's life at that moment. In time. Most of the time. 550 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: You know, we talk about this in the context of 551 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: small children. You know, if they're sustaining abuse, how long 552 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 2: has this been going on? They've got various healing injuries. Contusions, 553 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: bruises are one of the things that we look at, 554 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: and with her, you had various various injuries that were 555 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: consistent with having been going on for a long time. 556 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: The next question you have to ask is, well, you 557 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 2: automatically don't default to homicide. You think, well, did she 558 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 2: have problems with her gate, was she bumping into anything? 559 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: Was she disoriented? Did she have a problem with alcohol? 560 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: Did any of this stuff happen that would compromise her 561 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: ability to ambulate anywhere, to make it around anywhere. 562 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: There's no indication of that. 563 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 3: The other thing that interests me, and there's just so much. 564 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 3: I just am absorbed by this case. If I stubbed 565 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 3: my toe, it's something that simple. I am out for 566 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 3: the count. 567 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 4: It is so painful. You got to sit on the bed. 568 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 4: You gotta do something right. 569 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 3: You hit your knee, you hit your elbow, your funny bone, 570 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 3: and you are down. How painful did it have to 571 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: be to be stabbed. 572 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 4: This many times? For one and after one, wouldn't you 573 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 4: stop because it just hurt? 574 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 575 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, I think I don't want 576 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: to say the gentleman's name, but the individual that had 577 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: noted the insults on the on the neck. He is 578 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: also a neuropathologist, which means he studies the brain. He 579 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: has an understanding of pain centers and all this, and 580 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 2: he started talking about the level of pain that Ellen 581 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: would have been enduring as a result of these individual 582 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: little insults on her body, that it would almost have 583 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 2: been intolerable. And so when you, you know, you begin 584 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: to think about this, how much pain could you stand? 585 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: You talked about striking your toes not at all, or 586 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: hitting your funny bone. There nothing funny about it, right, 587 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 2: And so you begin to hit all of these areas 588 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: and everything, the pain would be so very intense that 589 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: you take this out to this point where you have 590 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: sustained all of these injuries. 591 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: How is it? 592 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: How is it that she could tolerate that level of 593 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: pain and not to mention the spinal cord. Yeah, because 594 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: that's been compromised as well. 595 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 3: There's one other vital piece of evidence in this room 596 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 3: that we can talk about that's not got anything to 597 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: do with the body and that's the door. I don't 598 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 3: know if your rooms have these locks on them here, 599 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,719 Speaker 3: but Ellen's door had a safety catch on it. You know, 600 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: it looks like a v It's got a little knob 601 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 3: and her door when her boyfriend who she was living with, 602 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 3: he went downstairs to work out. 603 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 4: When he came back, started banging on the. 604 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 3: Door because he couldn't get in because this lock was engaged. 605 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: He started calling, he started texting because he couldn't get 606 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 3: in the door. In the end he said he had 607 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: to break the door down. And I know that you 608 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 3: have just done a great re enactment, Joe, trying to 609 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 3: recreate what happened with this door. 610 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 4: Can it be done? 611 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,719 Speaker 3: Could you in essence knock down this solid front door 612 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 3: with that kind of a lock on it? 613 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: No, and not have it intact? And everybody knows the 614 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: type of lock here. If any of you guys, I 615 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: don't know about Paris, I'm staying in Bali's. My room 616 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: in Bali's has got a gatelock. It's just swings, you know. 617 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 2: I mean, everybody's ever stay in hotel, you know these things. 618 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 2: If if you're going to force your way through that door, 619 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: the anchor in and of itself, either how it's anchored 620 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: into the door or how the gate is anchored into 621 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: the frame, the thing would have splintered. It would have 622 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: absolutely splintered the contact points there. 623 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: That's not what happened is slightly pulled away. 624 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: Slightly pulled away, and there's evidence of that at the scene. 625 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 2: But the ability to actually knock this thing in and 626 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: not pull it out of frame, and even if you 627 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 2: open it enough, I mean, how many of you guys 628 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: have ever tried to open the door with the gatelock 629 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 2: in place and you can kind of peer through it, 630 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: you know, like this, you can't squeeze through it. I 631 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: certainly couldn't squeeze through it. There's no way, there's no 632 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 2: way you could get access to it. So that leaves us, 633 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 2: you know, thinking, well, how has this scene still remained 634 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 2: this intact and didn't splinter into a thousand pieces? If 635 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: what he is saying is accurate. 636 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 4: Does anybody have any questions for Joe. 637 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 5: When my children were a little and we used to 638 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 5: do our time share at Park City, Utah, they had 639 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 5: those kind of latches on. 640 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 4: The door and we would have two rooms together. 641 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 5: Then the kids, the kids would get in the other room, 642 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 5: shut the door, and then that. 643 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 4: Room was locked just like that. 644 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 5: With that kind of lock that Marriott did have a 645 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 5: tool that could come in, push it open, undo it 646 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 5: with doing no damage at all, and open the door 647 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 5: really quickly. 648 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: Well, there has been damage to this door. 649 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 5: Again, the any way it can be done without kicking 650 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 5: the door in. 651 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: Where it was anchored in has been splintered away, but 652 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: it wasn't splintered away to the point where it had 653 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 2: destroyed the door. I think that it would require special tool. 654 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 2: I know there are any number of people that have 655 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: tried to reenact this case using dental flaws, sewing thread, 656 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: and also rubber bands. 657 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: And there's one. 658 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: Guy that used to I think he was like a 659 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 2: professional thief, and he demonstrated how to get into one 660 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 2: of these things to beat the lock with a rubber band. 661 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: So I don't know. Yes, ma'am, you talked. 662 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 4: About the blood on her cheek, Yes, you moved. Did 663 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 4: they ever check where the lividity went in her body 664 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 4: if she'd been moved that way? 665 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an excellent question. One of the things we 666 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: look for is the settling of blood. This is called 667 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: postmorm lividity. It gravity grabs blood. It pulls it to 668 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: the lowest point. Her lviidity pattern was consistent with the 669 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 2: position that she was seated in. It was dependent on 670 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 2: the on her backside. Yes, ma'am, it's a good question. 671 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 3: Anybody else did they ever determine her dominant her dominant 672 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 3: hand or the dominant. 673 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: Hand right hand of her boyf perkfield. They don't, and 674 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: that's information that hasn't been released. This lady had a 675 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: question back here. 676 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 5: I was just wondering, did they ever look test for 677 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 5: DNA under her fingernails to see. 678 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 2: If that's an excellent question one of the things that 679 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 2: they talked about. And they made a big deal out 680 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: of this in the autopsy report. And again this is 681 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 2: this is going back several years. This is before. This 682 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 2: is before the status of DNA that we have right now. 683 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 2: But they made a big deal out of the fact 684 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: that they tested the knife, and of course the knife 685 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 2: is bathed in her blood, there's blood everywhere, but they 686 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 2: said there's no other blood on the knife or nobody 687 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 2: else's DNA. 688 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: Okay, great glad to hear that. 689 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 2: Just because there is an absence of DNA on an 690 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 2: instrument of death doesn't exclude anybody because if you're well. 691 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 2: First off, if you had another person's blood, I'm not 692 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 2: talking about touch DNA, just talking about blood, you would 693 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 2: have a commingling of the blood and they would be 694 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 2: able to see that. There was no evidence of that. 695 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 2: And also, contrary to popular opinion, when somebody wheels a 696 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: sharp force injury, there is no guarantee that the perpetrator 697 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: is necessarily going to injure themselves while using the nine, 698 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: particularly if it's a dominant person that's on a that's 699 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 2: up against a small person. She only weighed like one 700 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty pounds, She's not overwhelming in size. Anybody 701 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 2: that could come in and dominate her, they might not 702 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: insult themselves, they might not cut themselves. So it's a 703 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: red herring to say that there was no one else's 704 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 2: blood on the knine. 705 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 4: Hey, we get time for one more question. 706 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: Question. 707 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 3: Hi, So, assuming that it is a possible homicide, have 708 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 3: there been any other suspects that have been investigating? 709 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: Oh? Not, to the best of my knowledge. 710 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 2: I think that as from a death investigator death investigation perspective, 711 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 2: i'd want to know who lives in the building. Obviously, 712 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: hopefully they ran down all those leads there is no indication. 713 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: You know, one of my first as a death investigator, 714 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 2: one of the first things I think, if I have 715 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 2: a woman that is brutalized like this, this is very intimate, 716 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,439 Speaker 2: I'm going to think that there's a sexual motivation. There's 717 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 2: a relational motivation, because this is a lot of anger. So, 718 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 2: you know, back to the building, I'd want to know 719 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 2: if there were any individuals that have been sawking her, 720 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 2: wanting to know if any sex offenders lived in them, 721 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 2: any sex offenders with violent past, and I'm hoping that 722 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 2: the Philadelphia Police Department ran those leads down or explored 723 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 2: all of that. 724 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: That information has not been released though. 725 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 4: Let me add a very important point here. 726 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 3: Please you can go on Facebook and do justice for 727 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 3: Ellen if you're interested in helping out in this case, 728 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 3: because they are trying. Her family have been working all 729 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 3: of these years to have this case changed from a 730 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 3: suicide to undetermined. They can continue their investigation if it's 731 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 3: classified as undetermined, and so far three times it's gone 732 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 3: before the appropriate authorities. 733 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 4: And it's still yet unchanged. 734 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 2: Okay, guys, hey, thank y'all for listening to Bodybags. I 735 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 2: really appreciate it. Coming business at our booth. I'm Joseph 736 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 2: Scott Morgan and this has been bodybags. Y'all have fun, Okay, 737 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: thank you so much, Thank you very much.