1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Col Zone Media. 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to say it could happen here. 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 2: My name is Dana al Kerd. I'm a writer, analyst, 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: and researcher of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: professor of political science and a senior non resident fellow 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 2: at the Arab Center Washington. What a wild time in 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 2: the Middle East? Am I right? I mean not to 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: be flippant. That's putting him mildly. Today before I recorded, 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: Israel bombed the capital of Katar, Doha, in an assassination 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: attempt against Tamas leadership. They bombed in a residential area 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: in the middle of the city, surrounded by nursries, schools, 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: businesses and you know people. I have a lot to 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 2: say about Arab Israeli relations historically and what's happening on 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: that front today and the sometimes shared interests of Arab 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: regimes with the Israeli state. So stay tuned for a 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: deep dive episode on that topic soon. Today I want 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: to talk about the issue of Palestinian statehood. It's been 18 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: in the news quite a bit these days. A number 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: of different countries have expressed a willingness to recognize Palestine 20 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: as a state. In July, for example, France announced it 21 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 2: would recognize Palestinian statehood, and it was soon joined by 22 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 2: a number of other countries, Canada, Malta, Belgium, the UK. 23 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: Kir Starmer, the Prime Minister of the UK, actually made 24 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 2: it into an explicit threat. Basically, we will recognize the 25 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: state of Palestine if the Israelis don't agree to a ceasefire. 26 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: I'd like to underscore the absurdity of that comment for 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: a second, but we'll get back to that one. For 28 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 2: all these countries, they say that they are recognizing Palestine 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: as a state because they desire a two state solution. 30 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 2: Their condition for recognizing Palestine as a state also includes 31 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: Hamas being completely out of the picture quote demilitarized in 32 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: the language of French President Macron. As NPR reported back 33 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: in August first, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Karney also said 34 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: that the Palestinian authority needs to hold elections in this scenario, 35 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: but one that excludes Hamas. So all of these recent 36 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: announcements are coalescing around the same conditions. I guess the 37 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: big deal here is that these are major powers, France 38 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: and the UK, who have veto power in the UN 39 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: Security Council. For example. So the plan to recognize Palestinian 40 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: statehood has gotten a lot of press and attention, But 41 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: the thing is, one hundred and forty five countries already 42 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: recognize Palestine as a state. Palestine was given observer status 43 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: at the UN in twenty twelve, and the Palestinian authority 44 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 2: has been working for quite some time to get more 45 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: recognition internationally and to be able to use the international 46 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 2: legal system to advocate for themselves. So what does this 47 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: recognition actually mean a state that is occupied entirely by 48 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: another and is currently undergoing ethnic cleansing at different levels 49 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: of severity in all parts of its territories. What state 50 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: is actually being recognized here? What does statehood mean in 51 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: the context of occupation ethnic cleansing. It might help to 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: go back to the Osclocords that were as signed by 53 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 2: the Palistine Liberation Organization the PLO, and the State of Israel. 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: This was the first time that Israel and the Palestinians 55 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: agreed to something directly. A stipulation of the OSCLO Accords 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: was mutual recognition, meaning Israel would recognize that the PLO 57 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: was the representative of the Palestinian people, and the PLO 58 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: would recognize Israel's right to exist. This was later criticized 59 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: as uneven by Palstdian negotiators such as Hannan Ashtroi, because 60 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: the PLO was already internationally recognized as the representative of 61 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: the Palestinian people. So her argument more recently has been 62 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: they accepted Israel's control for getting recognition in return. The 63 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: US ambassador to Israel at the time, Daniel Kurtzer, concurred 64 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: with that assessment, saying to The New York Times that 65 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: the OSCLO agreement was full of holes. The mutual recognition 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: was asymmetrical, and that was to hurt the Palestinian negotiating 67 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: position for years to come. End quote. Nevertheless, the OSCLO 68 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: Accords of nineteen ninety three are widely understood to be 69 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: the attempt to bring about a two state solution of 70 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: some kind, and it's been the framework that many international 71 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: powers have paid lip service to ever since. By the way, 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: September twenty twenty three marked the thirty year anniversary of 73 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: the accords, we all know what happened October seventh, just 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: a few days later. The thing is, the also framework 75 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: didn't say two states. The ASCO Accords just said that 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: they would continue negotiations on some eventual final framework. Now 77 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: Palestinians wanted a state, of course, and Israelis were committing 78 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: to negotiations. So the Palestinians were told to start building 79 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: up a sort of state, a quasi state, in parts 80 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: of the occupied territories, to start governing themselves in particular ways, 81 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: and this was called the Palestinian National Authority. I talked 82 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: about this at more length than the episode for it 83 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: could happen here titled Palestine's Stolen Future, so if you're interested, 84 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: you can listen to that one. The Alco Accords split 85 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: the occupied territories into three parts A, B, and C, 86 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: all of which remained under the Israeli occupation's control, but 87 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 2: still there were some differences between them. In Area A, 88 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: which is less than twenty percent of the land, that's 89 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: where a lot of the urban centers are, the palisten 90 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: And Authority was allowed to function, build and run institutions 91 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: of governance. So if you go to Romalo, for example, 92 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: you'll see big buildings with palstin And Authority insignia. An 93 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: Area B, the palsten And Authority had partial access, and 94 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: an Area C, which is the majority of the territories. 95 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: The Palsten Authority was and continues to not be allowed 96 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: to function, But the PA did use this as an 97 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: opportunity to create the basis of a state, creating ministries, 98 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: beginning of parliament, writing laws, and importantly creating security forces. 99 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: Throughout all this, Israel maintained military control over the entire territory, 100 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: and Israeli settlements continued to expand. So what the Israeli 101 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: has got out of the Also Accords was they got 102 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: out of providing certain services and they let Palestinians do 103 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: that for themselves, but they didn't actually seed meaningful control 104 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: over any part of the territory. Now it's important to 105 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: pause here. An occupying force is obligated under international law 106 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: to provide services to the population it occupies and to 107 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: return the land to the sovereign the occupied people as 108 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: soon as possible as The European Society of International Law 109 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: notes quote the nineteen oh seven Hague Regulations, the nineteen 110 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: forty nine Fourth Geneva Convention, and modern Body of international 111 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: Human rights instruments contain a number of provisions which protect 112 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: the lives, property, natural resources, institutions, civil life, fundamental human 113 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: rights and latent sovereignty of the people under occupation, while 114 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: curbing the security powers of the occupying power to those 115 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: genuinely required to safely administer the occupation end quote. And 116 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: if the occupier occupies indefinitely, then it's not really an 117 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: occupation anymore, is it Again? As the European Society of 118 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: International Law notes, the concept of prolonged occupation may well 119 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: become illegal guise that masks a de facto colonial exercise 120 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: and defeats the transient and exceptional nature which occupations are 121 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: intended to be. End quote. But that is exactly what 122 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: has continued before and after the ascol Cords. The ASCO 123 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: Accords never ended, the occupation never gave back land to Palestinians. 124 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: Alla did is stripped the occupier of its responsibility under 125 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: the guise of working towards a two state solution. And really, 126 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: anybody who has looked at what has transpired honestly would 127 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: say that there has always been a mismatch between what 128 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: the Israelis wanted and we're willing to give and what 129 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: the Palestinians wanted, even to the degree of what both 130 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: sides meant when they said state has always been mismatched. 131 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: So I'll explain what I mean. Palestinians have always wanted 132 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,559 Speaker 2: a legitimate state. What does that mean. Well, a state 133 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: has sovereignty, It has control over its own territory, it 134 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: has the monopoly on the use of violence within its boundaries. 135 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: That's the most basic definition of state sovereignty. Israel never 136 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: intended for any of that. Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin, who 137 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: signed the Oscil Accords, in his final address to the 138 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: Kanesset before he was assassinated by a right wing Israeli 139 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,359 Speaker 2: clearly stated that what was on offer for the Palestinians 140 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: was something quote less than a state. Yitzak Rabin was 141 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: in the Labor Party. But again, if people are being honest, 142 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 2: this is a bipartisan position Israel. Israeli political leaders have 143 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: at best offered something less than a state, and at 144 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 2: worst offered surrender or annihilation. I'm not being hyperbolic here. Besides, 145 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: Motrich of the Religious Zionist Party, who is now the 146 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: Finance Minister, has for years actively promoted his quote decisive Plan, 147 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: which has become the policy of the state today. The 148 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: plan proposes that one any Palestinian who is willing and 149 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: able to relinquish the fulfillment of his national aspirations would 150 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: be able to stay and live as an individual in 151 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: the Jewish State, not as a citizen. And two, any 152 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: Palestinian who is unwilling or unable to relinquish his national 153 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: aspirations will receive assistance from them to immigrate to one 154 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: of the Arab countries. So essentially, what he's saying is 155 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: Palestinians have to either give up and be a subject 156 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 2: or leave, surrender, or transfer. The US as a supposed 157 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: mediator and third party has not really straight from that. 158 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: Sovereignty has always been approximated with self governance from the 159 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: United States perspective. Jared Kushner, for example, in his Peace 160 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: to Prosperity plan, which was the lynchpin of Donald Trump's 161 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: Israel Palestine proposer back in the first Trump administration, invokes 162 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 2: the idea of sovereignty, only to insist that it should 163 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: no longer be the crux of negotiations. According to the 164 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: Trump administration quote, the notion that sovereignty is a static 165 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 2: and consistently defined term has been an unnecessary stumbling block 166 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: in past negotiations, and this amorphous concept is best put 167 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: aside to focus on pragmatic and operational concerns. Ironically, the 168 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: liberal version of a two state solution espoused by every 169 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: democratic administration essentially envisions the same endpoint, a Palestinian entity 170 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: demilitarized and subordinate to Israel's economic and security concerns. But 171 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: Palestinians want a state. They want a state in the 172 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: full meaning of the term, and that state has to 173 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: be legitimate, not only internationally, but in the eyes of 174 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: the Palestinian people. Political scientist Tanya Alberts argues that sovereignty 175 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: is an identity of states. It's constituted by the norms 176 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 2: of international society. States are recognized as sovereign if they 177 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: achieve self determination for a group of people. The fact that, 178 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: on rare occasions, the international system has refused to recognize 179 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: certain political entities as states, specifically because they had violated 180 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: the right of self determination, highlights how we now think 181 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: of political authority. So, for example, the international community did 182 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: not recognize Rhodesia as a state because it violated the 183 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 2: self determination of the black majority in that country, even 184 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 2: though white people in Rhodesia did exercise material control over 185 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: that country. In other words, the state's right to sovereignty 186 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: must flow from some sort of legitimacy. A state rules 187 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: because society approves. This doesn't mean that every sovereign state 188 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 2: is democratic, but simply that states derive their status from 189 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: the citizens buy in, and because the state claims to 190 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: represent the will of maybe a certain ethnic or civic identity, 191 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: it's understood as an executor of the law in act 192 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: acted by the people who are sovereign. So sovereignty, then 193 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: should also be understood as the ability of people who 194 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 2: consider themselves of that place to exercise control over a 195 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: territory and have a say in its future. Populist movements, 196 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: secessionist movements, and other movements that challenge a certain state 197 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: sometimes claim popular sovereignty, legitimizing their assertions with reference to 198 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: their historical legacy or continuity or indigenity, even in the 199 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: absence of a representative state, and Palestinians are one such group. 200 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: They've struggled not merely for the right to exist, but 201 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: also for political control in state institutions that represent and 202 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 2: uphold their national identity. And the legitimacy of their sovereignty 203 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: claim stems not only from their long ties to the territory, 204 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: but also from the fact that they have long conceived 205 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: themselves as a nation, a nation that has never ceded 206 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 2: its demand for a sovereign state with the promise of subjugation, 207 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: subsistence or integration into another state. So, to make this 208 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: very clear, Palestinians want the state that is sovereign. They 209 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: certainly don't mean self governance. And Palestinians, after thirty years 210 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: of OSLO that has only left them worse off, certainly 211 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 2: don't want to go back to trying the same process again. 212 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: So when these countries recognize Palestine as a state as 213 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: a way of pretending to pressure for the two state solution, 214 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: they're not saying anything about what happens to the territories 215 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: that are currently being wiped out, like literally all of 216 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 2: Gaza and even parts of the West Bank. They're not 217 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: saying anything about Israeli settlements, They're not saying anything about reparations. 218 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: And because of that, some Palestinians have argued that these 219 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 2: statehood recognition things are a cynical ploy to distract from 220 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 2: the inaction of these countries on addressing the genocide in Gaza, 221 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 2: basically pretending to act without actually doing any. Palestinian analyst 222 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 2: Mahin Robani said this to NPR recently. Quote In the end, 223 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: simply recognizing Palestinian statehood is a low cost option. It 224 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: may placate a domestic audience demanding action, while doing very 225 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: little to actually change the situation on the ground end quote. 226 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: Others have argued even further that not only are these 227 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: declarations of recognition a cynical ploy to distract, but they 228 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: may even be a sort of trap. Legal expert and 229 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: professor nuraa At and international lawyer and professor Shadhamuri wrote 230 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: for Jidelia on this, which I'll link in the show notes. 231 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: They argue effectively that the best thing to come out 232 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: of this is a challenge maybe to the US. Quote. 233 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: The greatest promise of this renewed statehood bid, the most 234 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: recent push being in twenty eleven twenty twelve, is a 235 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: united front to challenge US and transigent support for Israel 236 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: end quote. However, they also point out that quote states 237 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: do not need to recognize Palestine to end the occupation, 238 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: to end the genocide and advance Palestinian self determination. They 239 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: argue that states quote need decisive will to impose arms 240 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: and energy embargoes and trade with and investment in Israel 241 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: unseated from the un hold Israeli war criminals and complicit 242 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: corporations accountable in their national courts, and arrest Prime Minister 243 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: Benjamin Nataniehu in compliance with the ICC's arrest warrant end quote. 244 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: So the bit for statehood doesn't solve problems. It only 245 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: gives states the fig leaf to actually delay solving problems. 246 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: On top of that, it risks empowering illegitimate and corrupt 247 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: Palestinian leadership in any future negotiations. I'm talking a leadership 248 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: that includes Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas, who eighty percent of 249 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: Palestinian's poll said they want him to resign, and an 250 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: institution like the Palestinian Authority that only fifteen percent of 251 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: Palestinians are satisfied with according to the latest polling as 252 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: at that hamurin note quote. The terms of the High 253 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: Level International Conference for the Peaceful Settlement of the Question 254 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: of Palestine, convened in New York, led by France and 255 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia confirm these risks. The Palestinian 256 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: Authority is glorified in at least seven clauses entrusted with 257 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: governing the state, effectively paving the way for a police 258 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: state alongside a settler colonial entity end quote. None of 259 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: the talk of recognizing Palestine amid all of these conditions 260 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: and stipulations ever say anything about the power imbalance between 261 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: the two parties or address the root causes of conflict. Now. 262 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: On the other hand, political scientist Paul Post, writing for 263 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: a World Politics Review, says, quote, recognition isn't just theater. 264 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: Recognition is a long standing legal institution that has the 265 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: important function of identifying major actors in the international system. 266 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: And for policymakers, recognition is the looseness in the rules 267 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: that allows them to use recognition not only to identify actors, 268 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: but also to express opinions about them or to secure 269 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: concessions from them. So, from his perspective, these declarations of 270 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: recognition are meaningful in some shape or form. Here's my take, 271 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 2: statehood recognition is not meaningless. In fact, it's probably dangerous 272 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: in this current moment, because what it's trying to do 273 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: is to cement the conflict in its place. These countries 274 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 2: recognizing Palestine want to hurry the current Palestinian leadership into 275 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 2: accepting a state and name only that is not sovereign. 276 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: They want to force the Israelis to the table to 277 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: do that, and they want these conditions to become the 278 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: precedent for future negotiations. And we see signs of this 279 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: in other ways. For example, the international community and regional 280 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 2: powers pressured Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbass into changing the rules 281 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: of the PLO's internal governance in order to appoint a 282 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 2: successor because they were afraid he was going to keel over, 283 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 2: and he appointed a very unpopular figure named senranchech As, 284 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: I wrote for The Guardian alongside palestiniancially an activist Pablo 285 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 2: of Abbufom in May of this year. Abbas also expanded 286 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: the Central Council of the PLO and appointed friendly people 287 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: to it. All of this shows that the international community, 288 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: in pressuring the Pasteinian leadership in these directions, has no 289 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: interest in democratic buy in, in actually getting the buy 290 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: in of the Palestinian people, really thinking that a legitimate 291 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: negotiation would ever be sustainable under these circumstances. This state 292 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 2: of affairs, these schemes where international powers try to ignore 293 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: what the Palestinian people want yet again, is the reason 294 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: Palestinians don't really have any hope in any solution. In 295 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 2: polling on Onesday Tuesday, et cetera. Forty seven percent prefer 296 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 2: the two state solution based on the nineteen sixty seven borders, 297 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 2: fifteen percent prefer confederation between the two states, and fourteen 298 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 2: percent of Palestinians prefer the establishment of a single state 299 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: with equality between the two sides. Twenty four percent of 300 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: Palestinians polled said that they did not know or did 301 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: not want to answer. Also, when asked about the public's 302 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: support or opposition to specific political measures to break the 303 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: current political deadlock, sixty eight percent of Palestinians supported joining 304 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: more international organizations, but still fifty percent supported resorting to 305 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 2: unarmed popular resistance. Forty six percent supported a return to 306 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: armed Intafaldo, and forty two percent supported the dissolution of 307 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 2: the Palestinian authority. Twenty six percent supported abandoning the two 308 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 2: state solution and demanding one state for Palstinians and Israelis. 309 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: What this sort of polling shows is that Palestinians now 310 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: understand very clearly that the international system is screwing them over, 311 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: international law hasn't been able to help them, and that 312 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: the solutions for a two state solution being proposed with 313 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 2: all of these conditions won't ever actually get to two 314 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: states and won't give them real sovereignty. The mass protests 315 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: and actions that took place in twenty twenty one Palestinian 316 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 2: activists called this the Unity Uprising or Intafalda, showed that 317 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 2: this has always been about sovereignty. In the Unity Intafalda 318 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, Palstinian activists spoke of a shared 319 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 2: struggle against Israel's continued erasure of Palestinians. Palestinians living under 320 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: Israeli rule across the country, whether they had citizenship or 321 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 2: they didn't, rejected the old style of politics. They rejected 322 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 2: what they saw as artificial fragmentation and they insisted instead 323 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 2: on their national identity and shared struggle. As a result, 324 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 2: at that time we witnessed an extraordinary amount of organizing 325 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 2: across the Green line, so in the territories and in Israel, 326 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: with Palestinian citizens of Israel, and it was a way 327 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 2: of reclaiming Palestinian sovereignty. The same activists in groups involved 328 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 2: in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Shechharrah linked up with those 329 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: organizing in Heifa and Uml Fahm. They built on these 330 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: connections to launch campaigns over and over in Masafietta, the 331 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 2: Knockub and much more. Sovereignty has always been an animating 332 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 2: demand for Palestinians since before October seventh, and that's surely 333 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: on everyone's minds now that the war on Gaza has 334 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 2: extended this long. So the takeaway here is recognition isn't 335 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: the solution. Statehood may not even be the solution, at 336 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 2: least not in the terms they're offering. Sovereignty has always 337 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: been what the demand is, and these pushes for recognition 338 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: miss that point yet again. That's it for me. Thank 339 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: you for listening to another Palestine episode, and I'll be 340 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: back with more soon. Take care. 341 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 342 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 343 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 344 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever where you listened to podcasts, you 345 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: can now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed 346 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.