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Speaker 1: Good warning.

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Speaker 2: You're about to order the arena and join the battle

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Speaker 2: to save America with your host, Sean Parnell.

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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to Battleground podcast. I have an amazing

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Speaker 1: guest today. His name is Mike Uzingo. He's the director

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Speaker 1: of our Science Institute. Mike is the real deal, spent

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Speaker 1: twenty five years in law enforcement on SWAT and one

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Speaker 1: of my buddies, a guy that we had on this

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Speaker 1: program earlier a few months ago, and somebody that served

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Speaker 1: with in Afghanistan, has nothing but amazing things to say

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Speaker 1: about Mike, and he's like, you gotta get him on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. This guy is when we talk about the

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Speaker 1: evolution of SWAT teams and tactics, this is the guy

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Speaker 1: to talk to. He's nationally renowned. Mike. I, I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to have you here today. Thank you for making

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Speaker 1: time with us, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate I've really been looking forward to this. Sean,

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Speaker 2: so thank you so much. First I gave thank you

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Speaker 2: for what you do. God bless your brother, and thank

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Speaker 2: you for your service. Thank you for keeping my buddy

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Speaker 2: alive over there. You know, I got a chance to

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Speaker 2: meet him and then work with him and and really

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Speaker 2: find some great work for him, hopefully that he enjoyed

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Speaker 2: in Syracuse while I was there.

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Speaker 1: So he's a little run around the edges, though, isn't he.

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Speaker 2: Yeah in a good way though, any good way. So

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Speaker 2: if you don't mind, I just jump right into a

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Speaker 2: story that you may not remember this, but we corresponded

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Speaker 2: before a while ago.

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Speaker 1: I remember, do you?

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Speaker 2: I do, yes, yeah, because it was a long time ago,

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Speaker 2: and I was just doing background checks and and Chris was,

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Speaker 2: you know, going through the process doing his application to

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Speaker 2: get on the team, and you know, I didn't know

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Speaker 2: him from anything but the academy, and it was just

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Speaker 2: kind of funny. It's like the people that you meet,

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Speaker 2: you don't know their backgrounds when they're coming into this,

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Speaker 2: you know, profession, because you just used to these young

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Speaker 2: kids coming in that you know, they got great hearts

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Speaker 2: and they really want to do the job, and God

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Speaker 2: bless them for wanting to go out and take on

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Speaker 2: this this you know, it's sometimes very thankless job.

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Speaker 3: But every once in a while.

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Speaker 2: I get someone who's kind of got this weird chip

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Speaker 2: on your shoulder, and the culture of law enforcement and

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Speaker 2: traditionalism is like, who's this guy?

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Speaker 3: Think he is right, you just did. He never said anything.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he knew how to play the game, right,

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Speaker 2: but he had this r I'm like, who does this

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Speaker 2: guy's deal?

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Speaker 3: And he was just so.

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Speaker 2: Quiet and humble, you know, it's just the way he was.

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Speaker 2: And he wasn't going to let you in and let

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Speaker 2: you know anything about him until you figure it out

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Speaker 2: on your own.

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Speaker 3: So you know he was coming on swat.

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Speaker 2: And then I remember I think I messaged you on

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Speaker 2: like Facebook Messenger or something like that, back before there

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Speaker 2: was a messenger. I'm like, hey, looking for some background

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Speaker 2: on this, and you were like, I will drive to

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Speaker 2: Syracuse to go to the mat for this guy right now.

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Speaker 2: That's how good of a guy you're getting. I was like, okay, enough,

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Speaker 2: said thank you.

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Speaker 1: So I was a little bit worried. I was a

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Speaker 1: little bit worried Mike because the first time I met

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Speaker 1: him as a young officer, he punched me as hard

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Speaker 1: as hard as he could in my solar plexus. So

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure that he was gonna I wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: that he was gonna thrive in interviewing. Interviewing like with

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Speaker 1: with leadership in police departments, you know, Frankly, I was

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Speaker 1: a little bit afraid because I mean not afraid. I

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Speaker 1: mean Chris I I he is like just the best.

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Speaker 1: I just love that guy. But you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: in the army, and especially in what we were doing

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Speaker 1: in the infantry, you're really the sword and it even

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Speaker 1: though law enforcement in in the and in the army

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Speaker 1: are kind of similar, it seems like you have more

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Speaker 1: of a shield role. Maybe not on the swat on

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Speaker 1: the swat team, but the missions just seem a little

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Speaker 1: bit different.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, for sure it is. It's yeah, it's different.

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Speaker 2: I would just say it's different your mission. It can

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Speaker 2: be very confusing on what it is that you're to

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Speaker 2: do most of the time. It takes a while to

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Speaker 2: get used to that, especially that transition from uh, this

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Speaker 2: is what we need to do. Here we go you

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Speaker 2: know what does Jock will say, prioritize and execute.

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Speaker 3: This is what it is.

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Speaker 2: Here's the job task. It's very clear, and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: in military and and I have the experience that it

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Speaker 2: isn't once you get out there, it isn't always clear.

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Speaker 2: But law enforcement, the expectations from you know, society, what

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Speaker 2: they expect from you, what your administration, what your expectations

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Speaker 2: about the job are. You'll question whether you're cut out

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Speaker 2: for it. That that's normal, and then you know what

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Speaker 2: it does to your home life, how it changes you

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Speaker 2: to as far as your priorities, and how much you're

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Speaker 2: willing to give of your life into this career because

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Speaker 2: it isn't just a job. It isn't just a career.

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Speaker 2: And much like the military, h you never leave it.

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Speaker 2: It's in your blood, it's in your mind, and it

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Speaker 2: becomes part of you until the day you die.

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Speaker 3: So it's a it's much different. I would say, you know,

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Speaker 3: work environment.

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Speaker 1: Right, Take yeah, we'll take. Take me back to the

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Speaker 1: beginning for you, Mike. What all of those things that

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Speaker 1: you just talked about, how you're what the administration expects

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Speaker 1: of you, what the people that you're serving and protecting

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Speaker 1: expect of you, How it affects your family. How did

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Speaker 1: you decide to walk this path early on?

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Speaker 2: You know, I go back Sewan and I think about it,

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Speaker 2: and you know, after not recruiting but being part of

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Speaker 2: that process for years, we're bringing young folks in and

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to show them these are I want

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Speaker 2: to make these expectations of what this job are very

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Speaker 2: very clear as early as possible, because there's a dissonance there.

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Speaker 2: I think between folks that this is what I think

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Speaker 2: being a police officers about, and this is what it's

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Speaker 2: really about. And if those things are distant, it's a

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Speaker 2: long twenty years plus, right, or they just have to

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Speaker 2: turn around and try to find something else to do.

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Speaker 2: My heart and soul was not into law enforcement when

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Speaker 2: I was young. When I went to college. It was afterwards.

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Speaker 2: I honestly search my brain and try to figure out

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Speaker 2: what it was that put me into this direction, and

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Speaker 2: the best I can come up with is kind of

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Speaker 2: almost hoky. But I had a problem with bullies growing up.

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Speaker 2: Didn't like them, wasn't afraid to go at them, even

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Speaker 2: if get my butt kicked, which it did most of

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Speaker 2: the time. I didn't win many, but I didn't I

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Speaker 2: wasn't afraid to go after him. And you know, it

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Speaker 2: sounds cheesy a little bit, but I'm trying to think

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Speaker 2: that there was really part of me growing up as

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Speaker 2: if you know, it was just an old school mentality.

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Speaker 2: I grew up an Italian Irish old school traditional. My

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Speaker 2: parents way they raised me is, you know, you stand

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Speaker 2: up for yourself, stand up for others, and you know,

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Speaker 2: if somebody's picking on you, you stand up for yourself. If

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Speaker 2: someone's picking on someone else, it's your job to stick

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Speaker 2: up for them if they won't.

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Speaker 3: And I just think that maybe that was some.

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Speaker 2: Of that underlying feeling that I had that made it

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Speaker 2: very natural for me to go in and into this career.

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Speaker 2: Then as I went into it, understand that it was

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Speaker 2: a higher calling then, you know, I actually realized when

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Speaker 2: I first started, when you get the feeling of what

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Speaker 2: this job actually entails, there's something called priority of life that.

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Speaker 3: We talk about.

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Speaker 2: I helped teach that when I was in the you know,

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Speaker 2: teaching in the academy and helping with new recruits, and

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Speaker 2: I remember listening to that and that made a lot

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Speaker 2: of sense to me when they talked about priority of life.

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Speaker 2: A lot of citizens don't know this when we teach

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Speaker 2: this in our civilian academy, and that's basically where officers

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Speaker 2: need to know. When they say, when they take the oath,

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Speaker 2: they say I will do this job. They realize what

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Speaker 2: the priority of life is and it's like they kind

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Speaker 2: of have like this hierarchy of you know, there's hostages

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Speaker 2: and innocent people's civilians, and it kind of breaks down

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Speaker 2: and just before it's the subject that's trying.

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Speaker 3: To kill you.

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Speaker 2: That's where you lie, that's right there, and everybody else

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Speaker 2: is stacked up above that, which means you don't get

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Speaker 2: to decide what you're going to do as far as

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Speaker 2: risking your life based on whether you can't put value

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Speaker 2: on human life. In other words, you can't put value

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Speaker 2: on You may have to run into gunfire knowing that

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Speaker 2: the person that you're running into gunfire for is the

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Speaker 2: person that was in the back seat of your car

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Speaker 2: yesterday under arrest, threatening to rape your family and spitting

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Speaker 2: on the back of your head. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: times officers don't realize that until they get into the

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Speaker 2: academy we tell them that, you know, it's one of

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Speaker 2: those Yeah, this is what this really means. This is

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Speaker 2: the nobility of policing. To me, it means that, no

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Speaker 2: matter what I've dealt with, this person in the path tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: I may you to risk my life for and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to do it. Doesn't mean I'm going to walk

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Speaker 2: like a lamb in the slaughter by no means, but

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Speaker 2: I might have to fight for my life for this

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Speaker 2: person at this moment in time. And to me, that's

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Speaker 2: one of those things that I don't know what about

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Speaker 2: that attracted me to that, but I felt like, if

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Speaker 2: you live your life this way, willing to sacrifice for

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Speaker 2: someone that maybe even hates you, what could be more.

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Speaker 3: Noble than that? Right? That sounds pretty cool to me.

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Speaker 3: I mean, anybody can do it for someone you love.

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Speaker 2: I mean we'd all run into a burning building for

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Speaker 2: our kids, right who wouldn't. But would you do it

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Speaker 2: for someone that despises you if they're in need? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's what you need. Every officer out there needs to

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Speaker 2: be able to say yes without hesitation.

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Speaker 1: It certainly sounds like those experiences as a kid, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you were bullied shaped part of who you became

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Speaker 1: and the kind of person that you wanted to be,

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Speaker 1: especially when you talk about the way that your parents

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Speaker 1: raised me and my parents raised me a very similar way.

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Speaker 1: Stand up for yourself, and if you see somebody else

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Speaker 1: that can't stand up for themselves, you have to get

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Speaker 1: involved and do something about it, don't just stand and watch.

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Speaker 1: And that's something to me I as I you know,

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Speaker 1: you see these internet videos that come out of like

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Speaker 1: these fights on trains or in the streets or you know,

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Speaker 1: in schools, and you know, you got one kid getting

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Speaker 1: jumped by four or five others and like one hundred

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Speaker 1: kids standing around just filming with their phones. There's something

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Speaker 1: that's deeply disturbing about that, beyond just the actual, you know,

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Speaker 1: fight that is clearly heavily weighted in one direction. If

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Speaker 1: you've got four or five kids ganging up on one

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Speaker 1: and what about our society is missing? What you just

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Speaker 1: said today. I don't mean to just jump right into

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Speaker 1: what is a very difficult question, but there's clearly something

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's something that can be

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Speaker 1: applied to the entire next generation. That's not what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: but there's clearly something when you see, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: people more content to film than to actually serve and

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Speaker 1: protect and do good things for other people. It's a

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Speaker 1: little bit nerve wracking as to what kind of world

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Speaker 1: that our children will inherit.

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Speaker 2: It is frustrating, it's scary. I always, I mean, try

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Speaker 2: to bring myself peace of mind. It's just like working

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Speaker 2: in the areas of the city that are you know,

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Speaker 2: very poverty stricken, and it seems like we're always dealing

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Speaker 2: with a lot of the same folks right that are

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Speaker 2: breaking laws and causing issues in the neighborhood. What people

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Speaker 2: don't see are what I call, you know, the silent

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Speaker 2: masses that are out there. There are so many good

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Speaker 2: people in these areas that I've worked that are so

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Speaker 2: riddled with crime and poverty. They're quiet, they keep the

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Speaker 2: doors closed, they don't want to and they mind their business.

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Speaker 2: They go to work, they do their thing, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's that's something that's out there. The ones that

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Speaker 2: we notice are the ones that hit on social media,

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Speaker 2: and those are just those things that pop up. I

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Speaker 2: still think they're a majority of people out there are

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Speaker 2: willing to do good things and do right when when

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Speaker 2: the time calls. I also think that people do tend

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Speaker 2: to mind their business an awful lot and not you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe so much risk it because of you know, prosecution,

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Speaker 2: ridicule everything else. It's just what is the risk?

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Speaker 3: What is the gain?

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Speaker 2: But I have to believe in my heart shown that

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Speaker 2: there's still the majority of Americans out there, when when

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Speaker 2: called upon, will do the right thing. It's just that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I have to I have to believe that.

246
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Speaker 2: I look around my neighborhood, and you know, all the

247
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Speaker 2: folks that that I meet when in my travels across

248
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Speaker 2: the nation training, and most of the people I meet,

249
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Speaker 2: they're just quiet, they're not making noise, they're not all

250
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Speaker 2: over social media. I go to different towns, I go

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Speaker 2: into you know, whatever planet fitness or gym I can find,

252
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Speaker 2: and there's tons of Americans in there, and they're fit

253
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Speaker 2: and they're pumping ways. But the most of the people

254
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Speaker 2: that really make me negative is when I see, you know,

255
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,840
Speaker 2: the overweight twenty five thirty year old dad flip flopping

256
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Speaker 2: through the airport, and it's like, why does that one.

257
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Speaker 3: Person stick out?

258
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Speaker 2: When I go here, I'm seeing hundreds of people that

259
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,440
Speaker 2: are out there grinding every day, and there's still so

260
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Speaker 2: my point is, I think there's still a lot of

261
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Speaker 2: great Americans are out there. They're just quiet and they

262
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 2: mind their business most of the time. It's just like

263
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Speaker 2: everything else on social media, we always see the negative

264
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,679
Speaker 2: things that pop up, and that's that seems to predominate

265
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Speaker 2: our concern and rightly so, because we see that, and

266
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Speaker 2: it does raise concern about what's going on with you know,

267
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Speaker 2: with America, with young Americans. Now, nobody wants to do this,

268
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Speaker 2: you know, I do you get depressed that they're in

269
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 2: this you know, forty five degree you know, selective attention

270
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Speaker 2: down here all the time. I think we need to

271
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Speaker 2: all do something about that. I find myself doing it

272
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,560
Speaker 2: as well. Outside of that, but other than the intentional deficit,

273
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Speaker 2: I still think that most Americans out there are still.

274
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Speaker 3: Willing to do the good and do the right thing

275
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Speaker 3: in the face of it.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate I appreciate that answer, you know, and because

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Speaker 1: I think the human mind does have, you know, does

278
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Speaker 1: tend to focus on the negative at the expense of

279
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Speaker 1: the positive. You could see, you know, ten great things

280
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Speaker 1: during the day and one negative, and all of a sudden,

281
00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 1: like you're thinking, oh, I had a crap day because

282
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Speaker 1: of this one negative thing that I saw. And I

283
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Speaker 1: guess when you're a police officer, you know, I try

284
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Speaker 1: to put myself in your shoes. You're a young you're

285
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Speaker 1: you know, you're a rookie cop, and you talk about

286
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 1: the effect of the family and the stressors that it

287
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Speaker 1: has on your life. I gotta believe that you see

288
00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 1: lots of negative, but it sounds like you also see

289
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:01,760
Speaker 1: a lot of positive things too. And I think it's

290
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,840
Speaker 1: great to have that perspective that hey, there's not as

291
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,440
Speaker 1: much negativity in the world as you know that we

292
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,600
Speaker 1: see on social media. There are lots of good people

293
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Speaker 1: in this community. And that's precisely the kind of attitude

294
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Speaker 1: that that I, you know, I think is perfect for

295
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Speaker 1: law enforcement.

296
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 2: It's well, it's not as easy for cops. I will

297
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 2: say that because.

298
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Speaker 3: It is.

299
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Speaker 2: I mean, like average folks and all that. What you're

300
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 2: being sent to every day is different. But I'll say

301
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Speaker 2: this much depending on where you work and the jurisdiction

302
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 2: of the city and all that, what type of things

303
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:36,680
Speaker 2: that you're facing every day.

304
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Speaker 3: I think one of the biggest.

305
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 2: Challenges to law enforcement mental health isn't they usually aren't

306
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 2: the officer involved shooting that you got involved in. Okay,

307
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 2: those those occur. They can occur, and you have to

308
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,520
Speaker 2: deal with them. Whether depending on the circumstances around it,

309
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 2: it can be very challenging for you and your family.

310
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Speaker 2: I've been through it a couple of times. The hardest

311
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Speaker 2: thing that like really gets at you the it's not

312
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Speaker 2: the big giant blow to the chests. It's the death

313
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 2: by a thousand cuts, right, It's that everyday negative context

314
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Speaker 2: negative contexts, over.

315
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Speaker 3: And over and over again.

316
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Speaker 2: Most of the people when we show up, they really

317
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 2: don't want to see us, right. They spit on the ground.

318
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Speaker 2: When you drive down the street in middle of the

319
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Speaker 2: day where I work, you'll look if you look out

320
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,080
Speaker 2: your window and watch people walking, you'll see people constantly

321
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,160
Speaker 2: just spitting on the ground as you drive by. If

322
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 2: you let that bother you, it'll drive you crazy. Just

323
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 2: remember that's a small percentage of the people that are

324
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Speaker 2: doing that. So you have to have faith and you

325
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Speaker 2: have to believe that most people really do appreciate you

326
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 2: being there. And whether they do or whether they don't,

327
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,119
Speaker 2: sean you understand what you need to do for the community.

328
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 2: They don't need to like you for doing it, and

329
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,960
Speaker 2: you don't need to get their appreciation. It's one of

330
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,960
Speaker 2: those things like the pats on the back or something

331
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Speaker 2: like that. It's like they're great. And I'm sure you

332
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 2: get this with military too. It's like I started off,

333
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 2: thank you for your service. It's good, but you know

334
00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,680
Speaker 2: you don't need it. You know why you did what

335
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,880
Speaker 2: you did. We know why we do what we do,

336
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,640
Speaker 2: and it isn't for appreciation. I don't need to pull

337
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,160
Speaker 2: over a car and give the Christmas presents to make

338
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,000
Speaker 2: somebody feel good about what law enforcement does. We already

339
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 2: do that when we run into gunfire, so and and

340
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 2: and you know that's that's one. That's just one example.

341
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: But we also do it every day when we're calming

342
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 2: domestics and we're spending extra time when we're ordering happy

343
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 2: meals for kids and changing diapers because they haven't been

344
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 2: done in a long time. There's a lot of tests

345
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,360
Speaker 2: that you do because it's the right thing to do

346
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 2: in the moment. And this job, I can say what

347
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 2: this job does. It provides every cop the opportunities to

348
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 2: go out and go out forthright and do good things

349
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 2: over and over again, even through you know, all the

350
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,600
Speaker 2: criticism that you're going to get before that one error

351
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,480
Speaker 2: that you made, that one miss, you know, calculation and

352
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 2: time or reaction time or something like that.

353
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,520
Speaker 3: All of the great things that you've done, you're there

354
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 3: for a reason and you know it.

355
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Speaker 1: So, man, there's a lot of wisdom and the stuff

356
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 1: that you're saying, was there a moment when you were

357
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: just a cop coming up where all of this stuff

358
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 1: sort of hit home? I mean, surely you didn't walk

359
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 1: into the profession with knowing all the stuff that you do.

360
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 1: So was there a time and a place where it

361
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 1: just everything was brought into perspective for you when those

362
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,360
Speaker 1: two worlds about like why you do what you do?

363
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 1: How did you describe it? You know, you don't want

364
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: those two things about why you're joining to be a

365
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 1: cop in the reality of being a cop to be

366
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,960
Speaker 1: too far apart for twenty years. I mean, when did that?

367
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 1: When did those two things come together for you? I

368
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:32,640
Speaker 1: guess I.

369
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,359
Speaker 2: Think for me and for a lot of cops at least,

370
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 2: you know, I got into it for I enjoyed the

371
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,120
Speaker 2: excitement of it. I enjoyed being cast into these situations

372
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,919
Speaker 2: that normal people you may experience once or twice in

373
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 2: a lifetime. You get a lifetime of experiences in one

374
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,320
Speaker 2: year in this job, depending on if you're working in

375
00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 2: a you know, an urban environment where there's a lot

376
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,359
Speaker 2: of calls and or twenty calls backed up on a

377
00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,200
Speaker 2: Wednesday for the smell. You know, there's some jurisdiction where

378
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,399
Speaker 2: it's like you're not called that much, and hey, great,

379
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 2: God bless you, and that's the way it's supposed to be, right.

380
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 2: But I think, like the excitement of it and all

381
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,360
Speaker 2: the novelty and getting to getting engaged with all these

382
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 2: people from different languages and different cultures that I had

383
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 2: from growing up. I really was just open minded and

384
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,200
Speaker 2: excited to go to work every day. I remember as

385
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 2: a young cop, like getting dressed in my uniform and

386
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 2: I remember getting everything tight, and you know, my gig's

387
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,960
Speaker 2: tight and straight and everything, and I'm like looking.

388
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 3: At it and I'm like, I can't wait to go

389
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 3: in tonight.

390
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 2: Ready, Yeah, we got stuff to do, and it's like,

391
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,200
Speaker 2: come on, and you know, I like talking to myself

392
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:36,640
Speaker 2: like can you.

393
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 3: Believe you get paid to do this? You know?

394
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,159
Speaker 2: And it's awesome, and then it becomes work after a while,

395
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,480
Speaker 2: especially when you know the overtime is there, and that's

396
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 2: great because you want to buy the boat and whatever

397
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 2: it is. But all of a sudden, I got to

398
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 2: pay for the boat, and then there's ordered over time

399
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,239
Speaker 2: that you don't even want anymore, and the kids come,

400
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 2: so there's stressors that go along with it, the change

401
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 2: with it. Going from this is really exciting work too.

402
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,200
Speaker 2: I want a deeper understanding of this job and what

403
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,359
Speaker 2: this means, not just for me, but for my cops

404
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,119
Speaker 2: and everyone else is I think, Sean is when I

405
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 2: became a trainer. When I became a trainer, that's when

406
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 2: I had the big, you know, aha moment the gong

407
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 2: went off right, and I.

408
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 3: Really loved training. I loved not just try.

409
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,400
Speaker 2: I loved training myself like I loved going out and training.

410
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 2: That's why I loved SWAT twenty seven years on SWAT.

411
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,119
Speaker 2: I loved going out and working all the tools and

412
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 2: whatever it was tactics. I'm just a real fan of

413
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 2: just learning more about tactics and changing and not getting

414
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 2: hung up on any technique or any tool, and just

415
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:40,520
Speaker 2: always learning and growing.

416
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 3: But when it really.

417
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,439
Speaker 2: Hit me what the important thing was, I was responsible

418
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 2: for all the firearms training in our department, and the

419
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 2: day I took that on as a full time instructor

420
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,160
Speaker 2: is in charge of that, I was like so excited

421
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 2: to get the full time training job finally. And then

422
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,480
Speaker 2: I remember sitting down and it felt like a leg

423
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 2: just landed right on my shoulders, and I realized, you know, Mike,

424
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,439
Speaker 2: when blood hits the floor, and it will it always does,

425
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 2: You're going to have to carry this no matter what

426
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 2: you're doing. You're teaching all of this stuff with the

427
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: use of force and firearms and all these things. It's

428
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 2: on your shoulders and you get everyone in this department

429
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,480
Speaker 2: for two days a year. I get one day in

430
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 2: the spring and one day in the fall to build

431
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 2: some training rosetta stone to pass off to them to

432
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 2: say this is going to carry you to and keep

433
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,119
Speaker 2: you alive on the street for the next six months.

434
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 2: It would take me fifty two days to get everyone

435
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 2: in the department through one day of spring training, same

436
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 2: thing in the fall. So I've got someone for eight

437
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 2: hours on the range, which means about five and a

438
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 2: half hours with lunch and cleaning all that. I've got

439
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 2: five and a half hours to impact this person's life

440
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 2: with this tool and their ability to run this tool

441
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 2: and an environment that they are completely unfamiliar with, which

442
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 2: is their gunfight, as opposed to arrange with paper targets

443
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 2: and a distance in a line and a whistle or whatever.

444
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 3: It is right, and I have to do this, And

445
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:05,120
Speaker 3: it hit me.

446
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 2: Really hard that if you don't do your very very

447
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 2: best in research and get the most information that you

448
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 2: can to build and create this five and a half

449
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: hour golden nugget for them, when blood hits the floor,

450
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 2: you're going to carry that for the rest of your life.

451
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 2: Now I know that it's not enough time. I know anymore.

452
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 2: We lean on those walls really hard. But it doesn't

453
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: mean I throw in the towel and just go hey,

454
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 2: let's go out and qualify and shoot. And I know

455
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: you guys don't like this. It's raining today and it

456
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 2: really you know, we'll cut the day short because it's Friday.

457
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 2: No way that you could not. You had to bring

458
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: it every single day the same energy. And if one

459
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: thing if you ask Chris about is when I was training,

460
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 2: you can come out on a Monday and day one

461
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 2: or a Friday on the fifty second day.

462
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 3: I never had.

463
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 2: You couldn't tell the difference in the energy level and

464
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 2: enthusiasm of what we're doing and what we were training.

465
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: It had to be there because it was selfish of me,

466
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: because I didn't want to carry that around with me

467
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. But it was what

468
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 2: you had to do, and that was to me kind

469
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 2: of going from that, you know, the player, to the

470
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 2: mentor mindset and where I started really taking this stuff

471
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: really serious when I took over the academy and now

472
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 2: I'm responsible for turning civilians and the police officers.

473
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 3: Then it took on a whole other level.

474
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 2: Because now we're looking at the full scope of I'm

475
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: a young kid, I really want to do this job

476
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: on to dedicate my life to law enforcement, and I

477
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 2: have to provide them with this induction, you know, twenty

478
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 2: nine weeks I think we were up to when I

479
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 2: was there of training that's going to prepare them to

480
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 2: get out into this world. And that was an amazing,

481
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: exciting challenge that again I stopped looking at how we

482
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 2: used to do things. We always done on that way

483
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 2: the emstealung effects right because someone before me told me

484
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 2: that was the right way to do it, because it

485
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 2: worked for me, because I thought it was the best

486
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 2: way to do it, and it worked in this one situation.

487
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 2: And started going back to the books, really studying the

488
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: science of how we learn, not just cognitive skills, but

489
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: psychomotive skills. And there's a lot of things that we

490
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: know in science and research on pedagogy and psychomotive skills

491
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: that is very counterintuitive to how we think we learn.

492
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: And that's when I started taking this job, this career

493
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: really serious as a clinical profession as opposed to just

494
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: going in and punching in you know, eight to four

495
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: and out the door.

496
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 3: And that's that's not the way I took it.

497
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 1: Man, how did you get how did you get selected

498
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: to teach? Because man, the stuff that you're saying. I

499
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: got to tell you, there are moments in my life

500
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: where I just know, at the core of who I

501
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 1: am that I'm on the right path for me, whatever

502
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: path I was meant to walk, I know when I'm

503
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: on it, and i know when I'm off it. This

504
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: sounds like what you were meant to do, like you

505
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: what you were born to do. So when you were

506
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: selected to train, did you stumble into it? Because I mean,

507
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: I don't know how it works for cops because for

508
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: sure enough, do you have to say you wanted it?

509
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I gotta put it on SWAT for that.

510
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: So a lot of the guys that ended up in

511
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 2: SWAT were the ones that kind of like made this

512
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: job their life. So and it's not you know when

513
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: I say SWAT and there's a lot of people out

514
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: there like, oh, yeah, I get it, and knuckle Dragger's

515
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: and all it like cool, I'm a knuckle dragon.

516
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: I'm a knuckle dragon nerd and.

517
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: Or as doctor Lewinsky calls me a warrior psychologist. Might

518
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: it sounds much nicer? I go, yeah, I tucked the cops.

519
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 2: It's a knuckle dragon nerd. So I started off just

520
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: doing the stuff right, learning the tactics, learning the techniques,

521
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: testing them, doubting them, questioning them, all the tools, you know, whatever,

522
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: weapon systems that we were using, to the point where

523
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: people are looking at you going, hey, man, you're really

524
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: good at that. Do you want to teach it? So,

525
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: in law enforcement, this is how you usually become a trainer.

526
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: You find yourself through usually your own time and your

527
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: own work, something that you really love to do, whether

528
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 2: it's grappling or shooting, your communications, whatever it is, you're

529
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: doing it on your own time, and you get good

530
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: at it, just like you're learning an instrument or something.

531
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: So for me it was mostly guns and tactics. You

532
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: get good at a domain and then eventually, when you're

533
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: on you have a window. You're too young. You're too young,

534
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: shut up and go aay. Then there's a short window

535
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: where you're viable, and then it's really short sometimes and

536
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: then you're too old.

537
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 3: You're too old.

538
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: We can't send you to schools. You're going to retire

539
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 2: in eight years or something. So we've got that, we know,

540
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 2: and that if you're lucky, and which I was, you know,

541
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: on the instructors that you know, I'm standing on the

542
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 2: shoulders of giants. My buddy Tommy Rathbun who was running

543
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: firearms before that, and he pulled me in kind of

544
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: early and like, yeah, kid, you got some skills here

545
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: with this, you know, do you want to be an instructor?

546
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: And that's where that's where I jump in with my

547
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: real issue with how we do this in law enforcement.

548
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 2: And I'm speaking traditionally across you know, systemically across the nation.

549
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: Some are a lot worse, some are better, and there's

550
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: pockets of places they hear about every day that are

551
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 2: doing some fantastic things. But generally speaking, generally speaking, you

552
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: get really good at a domain, somebody taps you on

553
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: the shoulder or you're banging on the door saying I

554
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: want to become an instructor, and then they pull it in.

555
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: And where the issue is is when you go from

556
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: somebody that does something well to become an instructor, there's

557
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 2: very little, you know, training there for that. There's mandated training,

558
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 2: there's an Instructor Development course, which where I am in

559
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 2: New York, it's two weeks. That's probably the longest there

560
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 2: is in the nation, So good on New York DCJS

561
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: for that, But still that's eighty hours. Most places it's

562
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: a forty hour course which is focused on this is

563
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: how you build a PowerPoint presentation, this is how you

564
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: do it. Maybe there's a teach back of five minute

565
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: teach back or a ten minute ours was forty minutes.

566
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what am I going to talk about

567
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: for four minutes in front of a panel of people

568
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: that are going to evaluate me. I get eight hours

569
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: a day to talk now, and I'm like, I can't

570
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: fit enough stuff into the same.

571
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 3: Dotage, right, But that's really it.

572
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: You know, you'll get that course of instructor development and

573
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: then you'll usually go to like a firearms instructor course,

574
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: which again depending on what you're sent to you, whether

575
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 2: it's the FBI course or a lot of other courses

576
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: out there. But again, I've been to these courses and

577
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: I'm not knocking the folks that are putting these on

578
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: at all.

579
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 3: I don't mean it.

580
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: We're all fighting the same bear, if you will, But

581
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: what you end up doing is more of the same

582
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: craft you end up shooting, Like in a firearms instructor course,

583
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: you'll shoot for ninety percent of the course and then

584
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 2: you'll call one line. There's really no instruction there. There's

585
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 2: no information in material for you to deep dive on

586
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 2: to go into how do human beings actually learn? How

587
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 2: do we learn psychomotive skills, which means the acquisition phase,

588
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: the retention stage, the recall which in memory, and then

589
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: the transfer which, as we need to get is transferring

590
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 2: what we're learning in the training environment into real context.

591
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 2: We already have a bigger challenge with that in law

592
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 2: enforcement and military because real context. Because they like to

593
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 2: parallel this with sports. So in football and in baseball, well,

594
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: there's rules to these games and everything's set within a

595
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: certain amount of variability within those games, so you can

596
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 2: practice for the games and play the game. The issue

597
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: is law enforcement and military we need even more of

598
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: that gameplay because anything can happen. It's such an open

599
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: skill environment out there. We can't you know, we can't

600
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 2: replicate every situation that you might get into. That's when

601
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: you have to fall back and look at like Leoca,

602
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: what are the distances you know, when we're talking about

603
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: dynamic critical situations, What are the distances that we're getting

604
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: in fights? What's going on with the type of weapons used?

605
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: What you're looking at now our archetypical gun fights. At

606
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: least if we have only this much training time, should

607
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: we be focused on that? Plus a needs assessment that

608
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: I've done on my own agency to see what's going

609
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: on there, because maybe what's going on in Leoka with

610
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,479
Speaker 2: all the data that comes out of that with law

611
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: enforcement officers killed and assaulted, maybe that isn't reflective of

612
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: your particular agency. Is anyone doing a needs assessment based

613
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: on that?

614
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: What do they look like?

615
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: For us, it was around vehicles and doorways? What is

616
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: your training like? And do you have vehicles and doorways?

617
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: A lot of times it was no, we have paper

618
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: in a range or we have a mat room. So

619
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: it can get you know, I'm kind of going down

620
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: a rabbit hole here with Alice, but it gets very

621
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: complex on how you can at least, you know, going

622
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,959
Speaker 2: back to understanding that most instructors will go through a

623
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: five day instructive development course, maybe a five day further

624
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: developing their own skills they're already good at, and then

625
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: that's it. You're an instructor, you've got certificates, you're certified

626
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: in off you go. Now, if you're within a larger

627
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: agency or mid sized agency like me, you can become

628
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: a full time instructor and maybe you have time to

629
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: dive into your own craft. But most of the cops

630
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: out there come from smaller agencies. I mean, there's huge

631
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: departments out there, but most cops are part of smaller

632
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: agencies like I worked at Salve and Camillas, these small

633
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen people, twenty people on there on the department,

634
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: and your firearms instructor you're grappling and all your instructor

635
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: that may be one person, it may be two people,

636
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: and every day they're out pushing the car, taking calls

637
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: all day. And then once a year or twice a year,

638
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: it's like, hey, let's go to the range. It's time

639
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: to qualify again. And that's the extent of what you

640
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: get for training. And again I'm not blaming it on

641
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: the trainers. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to. God,

642
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: I understand the challenges there. But when we talk about

643
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: the culture of law enforcement, if we really want to

644
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: make some changes in training, it needs to be done,

645
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: not just in time and money and budgets. Of course

646
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: that's there, but it's in developing the trainers that are there.

647
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: They want to do the job and unless they are

648
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 2: gone bananas like me and give up pretty much ninety

649
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: percent of your home life to sit with a stack

650
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: of books that I've got over here and over here

651
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: and study every day to try to get better at this.

652
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: It's not being provided in any type of formal, structured

653
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: way within the agencies.

654
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: Well, I have to say, I mean there was a

655
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: moment I want to ask you a question about this,

656
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: but there was a moment for me as a as

657
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: a young platoon leader where find myself Because you're right,

658
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: there's a million and one scenarios that that could be

659
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: thrown at you. You do the best that you can

660
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: for train to train for each and every one you

661
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: try to train for, especially things that that you for

662
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: the unknown, but you know you get for me in

663
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: Afghanistan anywhere, there was a moment where I arrived and

664
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, holy shit, these these there are people out

665
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: there that are trying to kill me like dead, they

666
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: want me dead. And I spent a lot of time

667
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: thinking about that, thinking like, they don't even know who

668
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: I am, but they want to kill me. Was there

669
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: a moment for you as a young officer on the

670
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: street like this is this is like maybe before you

671
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: were on SWAT, or maybe it was even after you

672
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: were on SWAT where you thought like, holy shit, this

673
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: is for real. And you know, looking back at some

674
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: of the old tea tps that we have, like are

675
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: we doing the best that we can with these TTPs?

676
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: Do they need to evolve? But was there a moment

677
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: where you're like, holy shit, this is for real. I

678
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: could die doing this.

679
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was more I think seeing the reality of

680
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: what was occurring to victims. I think that was it

681
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 2: for me, at least in law enforcement, because it wasn't

682
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: that people are always trying to kill us every day,

683
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: But you know, it's the it's the fire holding the

684
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: dead baby in your arms that you know. Was there

685
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: something I could have done more? There's those always feelings

686
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: that could I got it quicker? Could I done something better?

687
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: As far as those oh my god moments with training,

688
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: I realized that there were holes in what we were

689
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: learning and then what we were using on the street.

690
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: It was entirely different what I was using and what

691
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: I was seeing from other officers, our DT instructors that

692
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: did and most of the times when we're talking about

693
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: the dangerous stuff, it's the tussles in the street. It's

694
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: the street fights. We do that an awful lot. We

695
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 2: don't get in a lot of shootings, thank god, but

696
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: they do happen. It's the everyday thing like that you

697
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: worry about actually dying from a beating. And what I've

698
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: seen on the street is I went through our DT

699
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: program just like everyone else, and the instructors were very

700
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: skilled in what they do, but the amount of time

701
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: we spent in the mattroom doing whatever the techniques they

702
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: were showing us with handcuffs and takedowns.

703
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 3: And all that. I grew up.

704
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: I was a hockey player and a wrestler. Now, I

705
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: never jerseyed anybody on the street. As soon as I

706
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 2: got on the street and things started getting into fights,

707
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: I intuitively went back to single leg, double legs and

708
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: the things that I knew from wrestling, and the people

709
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 2: that didn't have that, it was a real mess on

710
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: the street when it came to physicality. So it was

711
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: the techniques that we were learning in the matroom were

712
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: not transferring out there into the real world. So that

713
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: was one of those things like, look, this is real

714
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: out here, and people will hurt you. They will hurt

715
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: you very bad. And I've had friends that were hurt,

716
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, real bad doing this job. We've all got

717
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: broken bones and broke noses and all that. But that

718
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: comes with the job.

719
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: You know, I've seen some pretty terrible stuff. But it's

720
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine, Like I don't think it's

721
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine like jumping a cop, you know,

722
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine never doing something like that, but

723
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: heard stories from Chris and from people like you, or

724
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: it happens a lot, especially in tough areas. When can

725
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: you walk me through a situation where something like that

726
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: would happen to somebody, to a police officer. How does

727
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: it happen? You know, because you hear we hear every day,

728
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, over the last certainly eighteen months of cops

729
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: getting hurt badly or sometimes even killed on the job

730
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: and some and sometimes it's not from shooting, so it

731
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: has to be, you know, it got to be from

732
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: other things. So I don't how can you walk me

733
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: through a scenario where you'd be in close quarters with

734
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: somebody where you'd find yourself on the ground, and and

735
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: and when you when you're on the ground, like what

736
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: do you do? What a what are the tactics, techniques

737
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: and procedures that you use to survive that and get

738
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: out of it? You know, flip the script.

739
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: I would say, the most what I try to teach

740
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: and the most important thing like going forward, and then

741
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: I kind of walk you through something is I'll put

742
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 2: it this way. I was a big how to guy.

743
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: I call them clickety clacks. I thought it was really

744
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: important for us to learn how to work our tools

745
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: really well.

746
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 3: And it's the same thing for grappling.

747
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 2: Know your techniques, know your stuff, your clickity clacks really well.

748
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 3: If I can. I always believe that because I could draw.

749
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 2: My gun out of my holster and get a round

750
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: out under a second. I did this all the time,

751
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: and it's like, I'm the good guys. I can do

752
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 2: this quicker than anybody that I know. If it comes

753
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: down to it, I'm going to win. And I think

754
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: that having cognitive dissonance between what a real gun fight

755
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: looks and they're different, right, I've been in a couple

756
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: they were entirely different.

757
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: And then your abilities.

758
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: It's this thinking that what I can do on the

759
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: range or in this closed skill environment is going to

760
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 2: transfer into this open skill. The biggest issues that law enforcement,

761
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: I believe has when it comes to these use of force,

762
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 2: whether it's lethal or just hands on, is that those

763
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: situations that occur that we don't see coming. What comes

764
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: with experience and TACIT knowledge our ability to know what

765
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: we're when and how to look for information. The one

766
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: thing there's three big things I love to teach. When

767
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: I teach, my goal now isn't clickity clacks or how

768
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: to do techniques or how to run your gun or anything.

769
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: Those are important, I'll get me Robb one hundred percent,

770
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: But it's knowing what we're when and how to look

771
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: for information. An experienced person in any domain when it

772
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: comes to action, reaction, psychomotre skills, whether it's driving, a

773
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 2: medical doctor, a surgeon, they knowwhere and when to look

774
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 2: for information. They have salient, very good external focus on

775
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: what it is that's important. What am I looking for

776
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: because that has meaning based on my experience, my TACIT

777
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: knowledge about what I need to do next, or my

778
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 2: expectations of what might occur. So seeing that punch coming,

779
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: I always tell people, and I don't mean us jokingly,

780
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: and I'm not proud of it, but what prepared me

781
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: for those ambush attacks more than anything else. And God,

782
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: I can't believe I want to say this, but I'm

783
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: turning it out there. Shot I spent in my later

784
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: teens and early twenties, me and a couple of my buddies,

785
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: we went through this period of our time in our

786
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: life with our favorite thing to do was to go

787
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 2: to this before I was a cop, you know, I

788
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: was young, just growing up, drinking ages like eighteen back then,

789
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: and we'd go to bars and we'd getting bar fights.

790
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: We used to get in brawls all the time, we

791
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: were arrestled. We went out and you know, it wasn't

792
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: like we didn't pick on people. It was like we

793
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: found like characters there that gave each other the nod

794
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: or somebody'd give you the old bump, and then here

795
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: comes the shot out of nowhere, right, the sucker punch.

796
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 2: And it got so in tune for looking for these

797
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: sucker punches all the time that I believe, and I've

798
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: got pretty good science. So back this up now, when

799
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: we look about context cues and schemas, and what that

800
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: all was built upon through our experiences is that I'm

801
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: dealing with subjects or suspects now and I can get

802
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: a feeling that's really hard to articulate. It's hard to

803
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: put down on a report that I had a feeling

804
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: like this is going south right now and I and

805
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: the thing is, sometimes all it means is I need

806
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: to adjust. It doesn't mean that I just go ahead

807
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 2: and double leg somebody because I felt like they might

808
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 2: do something. So that's where I think people get confused.

809
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you guys are course you just say

810
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: you know you act first and you know this. No,

811
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: if you're picking up on something, I can adjust. I

812
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 2: can adjust the way I'm speaking to someone. Maybe it

813
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 2: means I need to connect with them a little bit

814
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: better the way I communicate with them, and it's going

815
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: to change their actions, or maybe it does I prepare

816
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 2: for that that you know, that blindside shot, that sucker punch,

817
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,439
Speaker 2: which still you know, I still got caught on the job,

818
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: but it was less frequent based on my past experiences.

819
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: So I just think that it's it's when we don't

820
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: see it coming, when we know what the game is

821
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: when we understand what we're facing when we're walking into something.

822
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: Most officers that have some experience do a pretty good

823
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: job at reading the play and be able to act

824
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: and react in ways that are really positive. Really good

825
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 2: rookies have a tough time because they don't know the

826
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: games yet.

827
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 3: It's kind of like I explained this, like dot to dot.

828
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 2: I remember the old books, the old dot to dot

829
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: books when I don't know when I was young. They're

830
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 2: probably way long gone now, but you get these books

831
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: and you'd open up a book and there'd be a

832
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: bunch of dots on the page with numbers on them,

833
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: and you couldn't tell what anything was. So you got

834
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: your pen and you started it one and you go

835
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 2: around and you go three, four, five, six, I don't

836
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: know what's that. You know, Oh, it's an elephant wearing sneakers.

837
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: So but you had to follow the dots and the numbers. Well,

838
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 2: I've got four daughters. I raised four daughters. They get

839
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 2: the dot to dot thing with my first daughter, and

840
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: you know, here it is, and it's an elephant with

841
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: sneakers out. By the time the fourth one comes up

842
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: and she's old enough to do the dot to dots.

843
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: I open up the book and she's looking at it, Daddy,

844
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: and I look at it and I go, I bet

845
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: you that's an elephant with sneakers on it. And it's like,

846
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 2: then you have them drawn, and it's like, how did

847
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: you know that? Well, it's pretty much the same thing.

848
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: I've seen these things before. There's dots out there, and

849
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 2: you know how to organize them in your brain based

850
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: on all of your experiences. The rookies don't have this

851
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: because they get very little scenario based training. That's where

852
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: they show up. So basically, when I explain to cops,

853
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: when rookies get out there, they open up the book,

854
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: they don't even have dots yet, not only do if

855
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 2: they have numbers to follow, they don't even have dots.

856
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: They scramble. That's why rookies look the way they do.

857
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 2: And same thing with military when the first time you

858
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: hit ground and you process everything visually and linearly as

859
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: opposed to looking at something and having an understanding of

860
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: what I'm dealing with, like your NCOs will do you

861
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: look and we'll see a rookie do as they're like this,

862
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 2: And I always say they're like squirrels on crack or

863
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 2: something right, and they're like this, they're trying to find

864
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: the dots and put things together. And then when something occurs,

865
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: that non conscious way of self organizing this information that

866
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: becomes experience and knowledge now and it's not always right,

867
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: and if we don't give proper needback on it, they

868
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: can one experience can really throw them off on what

869
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: to expect next time. So there's a you know, there's

870
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: a that gets into the weeds with this quite a bit.

871
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 3: But that's something that I think with.

872
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: Law enforcement that you know, the when you don't see

873
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: it coming. Here's one and I'll walk He asked me.

874
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: To walk it through.

875
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: I'll walk through one that we were tasked with doing

876
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: something I never imagined that we'd be tasked with doing.

877
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: And that kind of threw us off as far as what,

878
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: you know, what occur, what should we do?

879
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: How do we handle this?

880
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: So we were on a swap call and it was

881
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: a call where and it was a bad call. There

882
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: was a guy in a house and he was a

883
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: guy that never caused any problems before. He wasn't a

884
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: you know, he wasn't a gangster or anything like that.

885
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: He was a you know, middle aged older guy had

886
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 2: had an issue with his family mentally, whatever was occurring,

887
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: shot and executed his son inside the house, shot his

888
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: wife a couple of times. Our police officers rescued her

889
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: off a roof and now swats there and we ended

890
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 2: up spending about a day and a half kind to

891
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 2: get this guy out of the house. During that day

892
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: and a half, we had exchanges with him where me

893
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: and a few of my buddies went into a basement

894
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: and he opened up on us down there and we're

895
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: coming back out. And the only reason we didn't get

896
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: hit wasn't because the good tactics are training. We just

897
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: didn't get hit. Let's put that. Recognize that when you

898
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 2: recognize it. We got lucky, and you know we didn't

899
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 2: even you know, rounds were hitting the cement wall next

900
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: to our head and we were like, wow, you know,

901
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 2: that was really close. But the change was because it's

902
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 2: always like make contact, try to locate, get them to comply.

903
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: You know, if you get into it, you get into it.

904
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: But the goal is not We're not there to rescue

905
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: any hostage. It's a barricade. Is to just try to

906
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: bring this to a peaceful resolution. When it came to

907
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: this point where this guy starts pop shotting at us

908
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: now from the outside. There was one and then in

909
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: second incident where it occurred again, where we had an

910
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: exchange through a window, and I'm turning it over to

911
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 2: command saying, you know, hey, you know, we got snipers

912
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 2: out there. They're really good at what they do.

913
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 3: And I'm an entry guy, so I hate paying them compliments.

914
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: But we have a friendly love for each other, right,

915
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 2: And I'm like, but I think this is a good

916
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: time to turn those guys on and let them do

917
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 2: their job, because eventually this guy is gonna pick somebody

918
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 2: off on perimeter. Our guys get lazy, they an elbow,

919
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 2: our head comes out, and we're gonna lose somebody here

920
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: soon if we don't do it.

921
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 3: And I remember, and I'm not and I'm not.

922
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: Here to to cachede on the call, and I know

923
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: the command posts. I know how hard these things are.

924
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: I spent time with them, and I don't I'd rather

925
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: I'd rather be boots on the ground. I do not

926
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: like paying in those places. Too many things to consider,

927
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: and things are more cut and dry out there in

928
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 2: the field, and that's what I like. But at some

929
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: point it basically came back to us, not as a

930
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 2: direct order that they're not going to allow the snipers

931
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: to do the thing because of whatever reasons they are

932
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: concerned with. So Mike and you guys, you need to

933
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: go finish this. And that's when I kind of it

934
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 2: was an unexpected thing because now basically we're looking at

935
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: going into this place and finding this guy and ending

936
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: the situation, which isn't what we normally do in law enforcement. Right,

937
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: it's not a normal it's to go in and of

938
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: course still trying to rescue. But now do I get

939
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: into a house frore I'm getting close to somebody who's

940
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 2: wounded and armed and call out and give away my

941
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: position after he's already shot at us, Or Am I

942
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: just going to try to get this guy anyway I

943
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 2: can get them? It's a different game. We never played

944
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,959
Speaker 2: that game in any scenario. We never played the game

945
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 2: of I'm going to hunt you in your house. And

946
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: that's where, like everything we did in training, you know,

947
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: I'm going back and going We never thought we'd be

948
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 2: in this game unless it was hostage rescue, which we

949
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 2: trained on, and this was it didn't fit the mold

950
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: of the things that we are already training and tasked

951
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: to do, and here it was. I mean, it's not

952
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: like we got called out every day, we get a

953
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 2: handful of call it's a year and all of a

954
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 2: sudden bang and we're in one that we've never experienced before.

955
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 2: We're in gunfights, in angles and offsets of things that

956
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: we've never experienced before. I always assume that when the

957
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: gunfights starts, I'm just going to come up quick and

958
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: I see my red dot and everything it's going to

959
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: be over. I remember feeling angry because I'm in the

960
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: middle of a gunfight and I don't even know where

961
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: the rounds are coming from. That's very frustrating when you

962
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: feel like I might die and I have nothing I

963
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: can even I can even fight. That's I mean, I'm

964
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: sure you know that feeling right. It's like that's one

965
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: of those I thought at least i'd have a fighting chance,

966
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 2: and I remember, you know, it was probably not the

967
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: memory in the moment, but afterwards it kind of gets

968
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: pushed into your memory that you know, it's just frustrating

969
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: aby that I didn't train the problem solve in the

970
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: middle of a conflict. I trained to just act and react,

971
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 2: and I need to get back to figuring out how

972
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: to identify problems and problem solved very quickly as fast

973
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: as I can with whatever time is available for me,

974
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: and reading my timeline correctly.

975
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 3: So those are all.

976
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 2: Considerations now when we're building scenarios and we're conducting scenario

977
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: based training, that we're looking at all those issues we're

978
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: building it. We're in charge of the stimuli when we're

979
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 2: building scenarios, so to do that, we really need to

980
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: pay attention to what our goals are as opposed to

981
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: just checking boxes.

982
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: So did you how did that scenario play out?

983
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 3: Well, it was.

984
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 2: It just got a little bit nasty, and we ended

985
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: up locating the guy down into the basement and he

986
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 2: was already wounded, and he ended up going in and

987
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: there was a final room where we went in, and

988
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 2: we ended up going in, me and another guy and

989
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: he ends up he's behind like a barricade and he

990
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: ends up shooting in return fire. And then after we

991
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: peel him out everything was over and realized that his

992
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: last shot that hit the wall next to my leg went.

993
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 3: Through his own head that we didn't even see.

994
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: So it was one of those and then you know,

995
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: my feelings after we're like I don't you know, I

996
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: don't feel bad about what we did or what we

997
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: had to do with it. And my frustration was like,

998
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 2: why would you try to shoot? If you're just angry

999
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: at yourself and for what you did and all your

1000
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: turmol in your life? Why did you want to take

1001
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: me and my friends away from our families in your

1002
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 2: own behavior with that? If you're going to do that,

1003
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: why would you know? So those are questions, rhetorical questions

1004
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: that I run around in my head, And of course

1005
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: the obvious is could I done something different? Would I

1006
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: have done something different? Yes, obviously we were up for

1007
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 2: thirty three hours before we decided no sleep, no food.

1008
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: We're up and went in thirty three hours straight, no

1009
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 2: sleep in the cold when we went into that you

1010
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: know that last one. So now I know about the

1011
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: way the brain works and decision making process and all

1012
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 2: that lack of sleep, and I'm like, oh my god.

1013
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: You know, the science tells us we were like blown

1014
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 2: a two oh something if you want to quate that.

1015
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 2: You know, as far as our decision making, the way

1016
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: we're you know, processing and problem solving, all of us

1017
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: were just you know, afraid not. So I remember going,

1018
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: let's hurry up and go in there. I'm tired, I'm cold.

1019
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: I don't even care anymore. Let's just go get this done.

1020
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: I remember thinking that, and then afterwards I'm like, God, dude,

1021
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 2: fatigue makes whimps on all of us, doesn't it.

1022
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's absolutely crazy. I got to ask what happened, like,

1023
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 1: how did this guy with said no criminal record, how

1024
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: did he find himself in a situation like that?

1025
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: Last understand it is he was.

1026
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: He made it through the killing fields under pole pop

1027
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 2: from Cambodia, came to the United States. Neighbors loved him,

1028
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 2: did a little side job doing laundry in their basement,

1029
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: and all that. Very old school, traditional Cambodian. And the

1030
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: way I understood it, and I never fact checked it

1031
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 2: too much, but it was pretty solid at the time,

1032
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: was that the son came home and said that he

1033
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,720
Speaker 2: fell in love with a girl from a local girl

1034
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: and he was already had an arranged marriage set up with,

1035
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 2: you know, a girl from Cambodia. And he said, no,

1036
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 2: I'm not doing that, dad, I'm marrying this girl and

1037
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: not her. And the mother took the son's side, and

1038
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 2: he went into the back room and got a rifle

1039
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: came out, shot him in the head at the table,

1040
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: shot the wife a couple of times. She jumped out

1041
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 2: a window onto a hip roof, and our officers came

1042
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 2: and rescued her and got her to the hospital.

1043
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: Oh my god, only.

1044
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 3: To turn around and sue us later.

1045
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1046
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't go too far.

1047
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, it was one of that's par for

1048
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 2: the course. You know. There there's a lot of gasline

1049
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 2: house though, so there was just one call, you.

1050
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: Know, which is one call. I mean, my god, how

1051
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: many of these calls did you have to go through

1052
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: in your career?

1053
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. As far as the swap calls.

1054
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 2: That was probably one of the bigger ones where it

1055
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,479
Speaker 2: was just elongated, you know, two days of really trying

1056
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 2: to use gas and all the tools we had, and

1057
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: obviously negotiators just talking and talking and translators and all that,

1058
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: trying to get this come to a peaceful resolution, and

1059
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 2: we failed at it.

1060
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 3: You know, I consider it. You know, we all survived

1061
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 3: and and he didn't, but.

1062
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: I still, you know, there's things to learn, and definitely

1063
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 2: if somebody passed and we couldn't get them out with

1064
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: all of our tools, it's it's a failure point, no doubt. Well, yeah,

1065
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: I mean were callouts were mostly barricade type call outs

1066
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: and high ressearch warrants. We did a lot of other ones.

1067
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: We did a lot of other search warrants that were

1068
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 2: more drug related. Search warrants on our drug unit side,

1069
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: we usually did between one hundred and fifty to two.

1070
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 3: Hundred a year. I did that for nineteen years, So

1071
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 3: nineteen years of that.

1072
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's two thirds of the year

1073
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 1: you're getting called out.

1074
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, those are more drug related ones, so that's

1075
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 2: that's just like our drug unit search warrants. So we

1076
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: had to our drug unit team and then our SWAT team.

1077
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: We didn't get as.

1078
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 2: Many call outs for that, so it was high risk

1079
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 2: drugs mostly barricades. Barricades were the ones that we we

1080
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: liked because they were I don't want to say we liked.

1081
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 2: You know, it's great if you never get called out,

1082
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: but when we get that there was usually. The thing

1083
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: we liked about the barricade stuff is there was time

1084
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: that you could take in information, you could have an

1085
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: analytical approach to most of your decision making on them,

1086
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: and you could use all of the things and resources

1087
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,439
Speaker 2: that we had. Usually it's time and resources right risk

1088
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 2: versus time over risk versus need plus time over resource,

1089
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: something like that. And I always use that one because

1090
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: most of the time we had really successful resolutions, and

1091
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,959
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of them we'd see him again

1092
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 2: because there are mental health issues or things like that.

1093
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: But but they were we like them because they were

1094
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 2: challenging and if we if we were reading the plays

1095
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: right and we're listening to what the people, you know,

1096
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 2: what the person needed and what we could provide to

1097
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: get some type of you know, agreement and some de

1098
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:36,919
Speaker 2: escalation and tried to get them come down. It felt good,

1099
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: you know, it felt good to get them to come

1100
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 2: out resolve it.

1101
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 3: And you know, they people come out and sometimes.

1102
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 2: They apologize and sorry, you know, and it's like it's okay,

1103
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: we don't do it again. Please, Well.

1104
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: Mike, Mike, So okay, So everything you said, you said

1105
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: that it was a failure point that you couldn't get

1106
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: that guy out that shot his son and shot his wife.

1107
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: You couldn't get him out alive. You think that's a

1108
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: failure point for you.

1109
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 2: I just think that and I don't think of it

1110
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: like a real negative way. I just think I just

1111
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 2: used to learn. I'll always run those roots on the feedback,

1112
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 2: like what could we have done different, What if we

1113
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: were able to get sleep and get some other group

1114
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: in there that a fresh mind on this. And again

1115
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: it's all hindsight bias, all benefit of hindsight. But you know,

1116
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 2: if you're not going and doing good AARs on it,

1117
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 2: then you're not learning, right. So yeah, I mean it's

1118
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 2: all I look at it as a positive way to

1119
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: look at it. So error is good, loss of life isn't.

1120
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 2: But that's the way it worked out. We did a

1121
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: lot of things right, but there were other things. There

1122
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: may have been moments where maybe we could have done something,

1123
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: but we were in.

1124
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 3: A decision mode at the command post or something.

1125
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: And again, this guy may have just I think back

1126
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 2: at it now, I don't that was his decision. I

1127
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: don't think he was ever going to come out alive.

1128
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 2: But again, if there was, maybe he didn't even know it.

1129
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 2: There was a way that we could have we could

1130
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: have done it successfully.

1131
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 1: You know, well, I'm Mike, you worked your ass off

1132
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: for two days trying to get this guy out of

1133
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 1: there alive. There was a clear escalation of force It's

1134
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,439
Speaker 1: just clearly there had some sort of battle drill to Okay,

1135
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: we're gonna try this, We're gonna try this, we're gonna

1136
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,399
Speaker 1: try this, and then okay, sniper's got mixed. But now

1137
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: it's time to use lethal force. So I have to

1138
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 1: ask you. So this FBI raid on this guy out

1139
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: in Utah. Now I'm again hindsight bias and all that stuff.

1140
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: This is not I'm not casting dispersions on any of

1141
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: this stuff. But I found out about this from my

1142
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: buddies all around the country who were on swat team

1143
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: that were just texting me over and over again, like

1144
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: what the hell is this? And now does this guy

1145
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: out in Utah said terrible, terrible things about the president?

1146
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: I don't care Democrat, Republican. You should not do that

1147
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It's crazy. We said some really terrible stuff.

1148
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: Swat team. I guess they show up with this guy

1149
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 1: house with twenty FBI swat guys and the guy gets shot.

1150
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: They do some pre dawn raid on the guy. Now

1151
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: now look again like hindsight being twenty twenty, I don't

1152
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: know what the scenario was on the ground. I just

1153
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 1: think that this is me if I were planning something

1154
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: like that, I'd say, Okay, guys between seventy and seventy

1155
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: five years old, he walks with a cane, he's overweight.

1156
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: I wonder if they had already knocked on his door once,

1157
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: so he clearly had an interaction with him. Is there

1158
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: a better way if you thought he was going to

1159
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: be a threat that necessitated a pre dawn raid with

1160
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: twenty people, Maybe you interdicted at a grocery store, or

1161
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 1: maybe you wait till he's out in the front porch

1162
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: drinking a cup of coffee, and maybe you take him then.

1163
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know knowing what we know, which

1164
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: is again not a whole lot, because the situation is developing,

1165
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: and body cam, I don't even know if they were

1166
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: wearing body cam. I don't know what the hell happened there.

1167
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: I mean, because you talked about a familiar point after

1168
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: try him with the guy that shot his wife, executed

1169
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: his son, and you worked your ass off to get

1170
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: the guy out alive, and then you see something like

1171
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: this you go in there.

1172
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 4: I mean, look, I don't know how I if if

1173
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 4: someone kicks in my door at six am and I

1174
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 4: haven't done anything wrong, like you're a civilian, you got

1175
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 4: a right to defend yourself in your own home right,

1176
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 4: and a cop sees a gun, I'm getting I'd get

1177
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:22,359
Speaker 4: taken out right.

1178
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you see what I mean.

1179
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want to break my door down at

1180
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 2: six am. It's gonna be not good for anyone, including me.

1181
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1182
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not familiar with it, John, the one out

1183
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 2: in Utah yet. My head's been in another job that

1184
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: we're working on lately, so I haven't even had time

1185
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: to get in the news too much. But I can

1186
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: say that you did say one thing that, did you

1187
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 2: know sound familiar to me? But like, I'm sure that

1188
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: they have a threat assessment that they have to go

1189
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: through whether they're doing their ops plans right, their op

1190
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: hoards and everything.

1191
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 3: So I'm sure they do.

1192
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 2: I don't know what exactly they're they're all pretty similar

1193
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 2: of what it is, and then drive the tactics off

1194
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 2: of that. So and I was responsible for doing a

1195
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 2: lot of those things and designing the ops plans, which

1196
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things to do is do a

1197
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: foundational opps plan and then I have my guys like

1198
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: Chris and my main entry guys come in and just

1199
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: get after it like vultures, pick it apart, tear it,

1200
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 2: tear it. Let's let's make it good. And and so

1201
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 2: we'd always have those, you know, we'd always you know,

1202
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 2: risk versus need over time plus resources. All right, when

1203
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 2: you plan on doing this, Mike, you got a guy

1204
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: coming in on the second floor, and why why are

1205
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 2: we putting the guy into that exposing him? And then

1206
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 2: you know, if I didn't have a really good reason,

1207
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: which it was like because this, this and this, like

1208
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 2: all right, you know, Roger, that good go but there's

1209
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 2: checks and balances there. But you did say something about

1210
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 2: the coffee shop and all that, and for us it

1211
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: was it was really easy. We always look at it

1212
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: as a progression.

1213
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 3: I didn't make this up.

1214
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: It was either open air, mobile or stronghold, so that

1215
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: we always want that that route, you know, so open

1216
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: air was always the safest. Mobile is the next which

1217
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,240
Speaker 2: that's the babel, depending on what they do in a vehicle.

1218
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 2: But we had ways of doing things that for officer

1219
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: safety as well without endangering the public because again parorty

1220
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: like and then stronghold is the last I mean, the

1221
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 2: last option. The last thing you want to do is

1222
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 2: punch a door and start putting people into an unknown. Right,

1223
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: that's like, this is my stronghold. I know every square

1224
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: inch of it, and I know you know, depending on

1225
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: what people from the outside, they're going into an unknown

1226
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: for the most part, even with even with intel even

1227
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: more like inform an intel, you still don't know what

1228
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: one hundred percent what's going to be there when you

1229
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 2: when you pop that door open. So that was always

1230
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 2: the last option was to punch the door and go

1231
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 2: in through you stronghold open airs were great. Now I'll

1232
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 2: say this once too, and I know nothing about their operation.

1233
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, I'm not trying to put you

1234
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: in a tough spot. Yes, I'll tell you that.

1235
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: I'm just going like standard like police swat stuff, is

1236
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: that there are things that occur that sometimes i'd argue

1237
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 2: it I understood, but we'd be doing like, hey, you know,

1238
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 2: it's the end of this multi jurisdictional drug investigation and

1239
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 2: we're taking.

1240
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 3: All the bad guys down.

1241
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 2: We're going to show up at three in the morning

1242
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: and we're all getting together and there's like fifteen different

1243
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 2: agencies from local, state, and federal. We've got all these

1244
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 2: different teams and we're going to hit fifteen houses, and

1245
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 2: then this one and two. SWAT's doing one, two and three,

1246
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: and the drug units are doing all these other houses

1247
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 2: because the lower priority those are common. And I remember thinking, okay,

1248
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 2: we're hitting this place. It's oh five hundred, you know,

1249
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 2: that's when everything's getting kicked off. We're all going to

1250
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 2: go simultaneously, so phone's starn't crossing, and people are dumping

1251
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: dope and people aren't taking off and stuff, and it's like, okay,

1252
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 2: I got a problem. I got a problem because the

1253
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 2: reason that SWAT's getting called in is because this guy's

1254
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: got you know, violent history. We know he's got guns,

1255
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 2: we've got informs, we know he has weapons in the house,

1256
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 2: and that's his place. But instead of going on our terms,

1257
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: we're going to just go at five o'clock in the

1258
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: morning because that's when everybody else is going and the shot.

1259
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: You know, commanders will get around and be like this

1260
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: is be us man. We are going in and look,

1261
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: we're not going dynamic on this. We're not punching the door.

1262
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 2: We're gonna go non dynamic. We're gonna basically like it's

1263
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 2: not knock on top. But there's other things that we

1264
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 2: do where we're going up and locking the outside down

1265
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 2: and then coming up and get making contact and tell

1266
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 2: them to come out, which means go ahead and flush

1267
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:19,479
Speaker 2: your dope.

1268
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 3: Nobody's gonna die over a kilo or whatever it is,

1269
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 3: you know, right right, But that would really anger you know,

1270
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 3: it would be upsetting too.

1271
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 2: I don't say anger, they you know, the investigating officers

1272
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 2: that especially if it's state charges, If you don't get

1273
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 2: the dope, the charges aren't going to be very well.

1274
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: So it's like, no, we really need to get it.

1275
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 2: So there are these forces that will push a that

1276
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 2: I want to push, you know, the tactical component to

1277
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 2: go in dynamic as opposed to what we would normally do,

1278
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 2: which would not be that way.

1279
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 3: We'd wait. But the other part is as far as

1280
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 3: open air is.

1281
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: If we really need to get in the house and

1282
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 2: there's multiple PEP people in the house, once somebody leaves,

1283
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 2: if we pick them off, then we're on a timeline

1284
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 2: for the house, and then I'll end us setting up

1285
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 2: us for a stronghold.

1286
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 3: So again I'm just talking like general be beer in general.

1287
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1288
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 3: Most law enforcement pretty much follows.

1289
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 2: It's not anything that insightful really that you wouldn't find

1290
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 2: in any you know base.

1291
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 5: Well, I.

1292
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: I was asking my SWAT buddies, like, Hey, what's your

1293
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: take on all this? Like they're the ones sending it

1294
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: to me, and and and they their their response was

1295
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: almost universally, would you be proud of how this raid

1296
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: ended if you were the if you were the commander

1297
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: on the ground. And I had to say, probably not.

1298
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: And then now as information and I know you don't

1299
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: know a whole lot about it, but as information starts

1300
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: to trickle out, it turns out this guy was like

1301
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: I mean, he he could barely Breathe was like volunteering

1302
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: in his church. I maybe he brandished a gun when

1303
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: they entered, but he was an old veteran. So I mean,

1304
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: there's just so many variables. Man, I don't empathize with you.

1305
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: It's it's such a difficult job, and.

1306
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 2: It is, and you don't know once you open that can.

1307
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 2: It's like I had a I had a situation on

1308
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 2: a raid once where we're going in and it's it's

1309
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 2: a drug raid, so it's day stuff for us and

1310
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 2: hit the door. We go in and a couple of

1311
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: big guys in there. I remember one took a swing

1312
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: at me punched the door, and I was the first

1313
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: one in and he called off to take and he

1314
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 2: would have taken. I still would have been knocked out

1315
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: from that punch. And it was like ten years ago.

1316
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 2: I mean he had and I can see in his

1317
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 2: eyes as he's coming around, he's looking at me with like, oh,

1318
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: it's the police.

1319
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 3: He really reacted. He had no idea.

1320
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: He didn't go on the ground, and.

1321
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's cool, man. It was like I read

1322
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 2: that like in that moment, he just got startled scared

1323
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: and he swung.

1324
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 3: I secure the guy, and I.

1325
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 2: See a stairwell going up from the living room and

1326
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: I go, there's a second floor. I got stairwell, you know.

1327
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 2: So I popped back out and I turned the corner

1328
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: just to clear up the stairwell. And just like that,

1329
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 2: This is when and I tell the story when I

1330
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 2: teach a little bit, because as when you talk about

1331
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 2: experience and schema and tacit knowledge.

1332
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 3: I grew up hunting. I grew up.

1333
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 2: My first gun was our twenty gauge h I still

1334
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 2: have it, h and R single shot twenty age shotgun.

1335
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 2: And I'm a gun guy, so I know what I

1336
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 2: see and I remember turned in the corner and my

1337
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 2: memory was a flash picture. There was an elderly male

1338
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 2: standing on his way down the stairs and he's holding

1339
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,959
Speaker 2: a shotgun. I see the barrel coming right at me. Now,

1340
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 2: the rookie me, with no experience or anything could have

1341
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 2: been would have justifiably just put rounds on at a meeting,

1342
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,439
Speaker 2: I'm going a drug rate. I got a guy coming

1343
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 2: down the stairs with a shotgun. My first picture what

1344
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:29,479
Speaker 2: I saw when I looked was I saw the gun

1345
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 2: was open.

1346
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 3: It thought it was a single shot. It was opened.

1347
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 2: I was and I know I didn't have time to

1348
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 2: analyze that. Yeah, there was one in there. All he

1349
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 2: had to do was snap up and bang. And that's

1350
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 2: that's a quarter to a half. It's a half a

1351
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 2: second at best if he's fast. But I remember seeing

1352
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 2: that and seeing his face was of shock, like he

1353
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 2: was afraid, definitely afraid like this, and he was barely

1354
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 2: holding the gun like this. And that's when I just

1355
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 2: turned in to drop the gun, drop the gun, and

1356
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 2: then it dropped. But it was it was a moment

1357
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: where I saw what I saw, and that could have

1358
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: been a lethal shooting immediately and justifiable and everything else,

1359
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 2: because I got a gun point right at my head

1360
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 2: about you know, four feet away from me. But I

1361
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 2: picked up I was lucky enough to pick up on

1362
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 2: some visual information that told me not right, something's out right.

1363
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't the typical, it wasn't and it was a

1364
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 2: flash picture.

1365
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 3: So where there was.

1366
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 2: No time for analysis, I had enough to see what

1367
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 2: I needed to see based on my experience, my schema.

1368
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 2: It had meaning to me in a moment. And that's

1369
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 2: where the decision making process falls into the category what

1370
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 2: doctor Klein calls recognition prime decision making or doctor Conman,

1371
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 2: if you will system one decision making where I see

1372
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 2: something and you identify it quickly and then you react,

1373
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 2: and then as time allows, you can go into some

1374
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 2: type of analysis. So there's things that once you get

1375
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 2: into a situation and you're reading, you know, all I'm

1376
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 2: saying is you're already in the house. Now, all of

1377
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 2: a sudden this occurs. What are you seeing?

1378
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 3: Is there?

1379
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 2: An analysis usually is in time. Luckily, I always say luckily,

1380
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 2: I grew up own guns, and I saw what I saw,

1381
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 2: and it allowed me to take a moment to see more,

1382
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 2: and then I was able to get back and make

1383
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 2: the commands and how it happens it worked out.

1384
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm blown away by this. And the way that

1385
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: you describe stuff is I have to say, man, it

1386
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: is kind of so I think about my evolution as

1387
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 1: a as a combat leader and just being in ambushes

1388
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: and getting shot, and again it's a different thing because

1389
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: people are trying to kill you. You're trying to kill them.

1390
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: Like that's just that. It's it's it's it's almost simpler

1391
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways in the infantry and I

1392
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: it's a terrible tough situation in the infantry, and it's

1393
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,959
Speaker 1: but it's there's there's just like less variables, less less

1394
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: collateral damage. In the mountains of Afghanistan. Somebody is trying

1395
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 1: to kill you, and if you don't kill them first,

1396
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: you could be you could be the one dead. So

1397
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: it's but but there was an evolution for me where

1398
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: And I'm just telling you this because as you describe

1399
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: it in clinical scientific terms, I kind of experienced this

1400
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: as a young lieutenant, like doing this looking up and around,

1401
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 1: trying to look at all this stuff. And it got

1402
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: to a point after six seven months and hundreds of firefights,

1403
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: it was just like the moment it would almost like

1404
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: collidoscope around you, and I was just I just understood

1405
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: what was around me, like it's like I saw it.

1406
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: It was there, it was part of my consciousness. It

1407
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: was either a threat or it wasn't. And it almost

1408
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: got to a point where I talked to some of

1409
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: my squad leaders and stuff and just say it's like

1410
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: stand strong in that kaleidoscope and just be aware of

1411
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: what's going on around you. Whereas you're right, the guys

1412
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 1: that come in, they're super green that haven't been there

1413
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: in a while. They're like looking all around, look at

1414
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: their weapons system, checking their nods, like looking up at

1415
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: the sky. I mean, it's just looking for IEDs. It's

1416
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 1: just kind of crazy to me that you've broken this

1417
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 1: down to a science.

1418
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a deep end to it.

1419
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: Shaw. It gets better. It's so good and what you're

1420
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 2: saying makes sense for you have that moment where now

1421
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: there's now Once you get into that moment where you

1422
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 2: start seeing the play pattern, like you're you're looking and

1423
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 2: you're seeing and you have this understanding of what's occurring

1424
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 2: and what you need to do, that's a good feeling.

1425
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 2: It's like that law enforcement usually depending on your agency,

1426
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 2: it might take a year two years on the job

1427
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 2: before you get this mindset, and then there can be

1428
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 2: this bifurcation in the mindset. And here's the bifurcation in

1429
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 2: the mindset. The one mindset can be when the challenge

1430
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 2: comes up and here comes the information. Oh no, oh

1431
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 2: my god, what am I going to do? I don't

1432
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 2: want to do this?

1433
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 3: Or this is a challenge. Boys, let's go, or you know, guys,

1434
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 3: let's go. This is what do you got?

1435
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 2: Bring it?

1436
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 3: Bring it.

1437
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 2: So the two mindsets are really important, and not that

1438
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 2: I like say mindset is everything, but it's not.

1439
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 3: But it's important.

1440
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 2: Is that how you face these things is going to

1441
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 2: gear where your attention goes. Because when I'm gearing my

1442
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 2: attention towards a challenge, I'm staying externally focused. And this

1443
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 2: is huge for me. I'm staying externally focused on processing information.

1444
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: When I'm doing that, my heart rate is lower. Everything is,

1445
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 2: my body is functioning. I'm processing things in real time

1446
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 2: for when they start getting into action sequences, things get

1447
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 2: critical and dynamic firefight it starts occurring. I'm still picking

1448
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 2: up and I'm processing. I'm making decisions based off a

1449
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 2: real time events that are occurring when my mindset is,

1450
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 2: oh shit, I don't own my when the when the

1451
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,919
Speaker 2: thought I comes in, I don't, I'm feeling, oh my god,

1452
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 2: what am I going to do? What am I gonna

1453
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 2: do for my guys? All that the I feeling. Think

1454
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 2: of I as internal focus. And when we have an

1455
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 2: internal focus of attention, when we're feeling about what's going

1456
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 2: on as opposed to acting on what's going on in processing,

1457
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 2: that usually works against us when we're talking about dealing

1458
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 2: with dynamic situations.

1459
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: Geez man, this is gee. I mean listen, so this

1460
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: is crazy to me as you're talking, like so much

1461
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 1: of this evolution in me is like coming to the fore.

1462
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: And I haven't you know, thought about this stuff in

1463
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: a decade. But there were times where you're right where

1464
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: you're like, what do I do? How do I handle this?

1465
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: What's and when you're thinking about that, yeah, it's just

1466
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 1: it's not it's not a good place to be. And

1467
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: I I remember that there was this one moment and

1468
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: this is stuck with me all these years, and it's

1469
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 1: kind of like it's not like one of the more

1470
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: hey we're gonna kill ZONM what do we do? It

1471
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 1: didn't make it into outlaw Patune or anything like that.

1472
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: But it was early on in my deployment. I think

1473
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: we had like one firefight and the enemy had like

1474
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 1: I mean, they had hit us with rockets or mortars

1475
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 1: or whatever, but nothing like super bad. But there was

1476
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 1: always the risk of improvised explosive devices or even suicide bombers,

1477
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 1: which is a variable that again you as someone who

1478
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: is a civilian, it's like it's hard to wrap your

1479
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 1: mind around that threat that someone could be strapped with

1480
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 1: a bomb, and our inclination as Americans is just just

1481
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:37,600
Speaker 1: to try to talk it out, you know, have some

1482
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:42,680
Speaker 1: clear escalation of force. But the squad leader, as a

1483
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 1: squad leader had been to combat before, was really hard edged.

1484
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 1: And we had this guy, I mean, we were out there,

1485
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 1: we had just investigated this point of origin site where

1486
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: we found a bunch of rockets. The enemy had run

1487
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 1: away from us, so we were all like ready to

1488
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: go into what you would call like it's some sort

1489
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,799
Speaker 1: of dynam It was a dynamic situation. We weren't shooting

1490
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: and this guy, this guy comes out of nowhere and

1491
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 1: is out of the field of my vision. And this

1492
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: squad leader is his name is Jason Sabaki is standing

1493
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: right next to me and just comes out of the

1494
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: field of his is this guy just starts waving his hand.

1495
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, my inclination was like, oh my gosh, this

1496
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: is a threat. What do I do? But at the

1497
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 1: moment that I thought that like this, I'm telling you,

1498
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 1: this is crazy. I was thinking and it was not

1499
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 1: the right I shouldn't have been. I should have been

1500
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: I should have known. I should have just been able

1501
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: to react to this threat. This squad leader who had

1502
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 1: already been there before I had his his his weapon

1503
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 1: up at the high ready and fired a warning shot

1504
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: by the guy right by the guy's head to tell

1505
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 1: him to stop before I could even finish my thought.

1506
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 1: But that you think about that if he wasn't there

1507
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 1: and this was a suicide bomber, because you talk about

1508
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 1: thinking these things back, like if I would have done this,

1509
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,600
Speaker 1: or if this would have happened, I mean those I

1510
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 1: thought that I thought, for me, what could have gotten

1511
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 1: me killed? And it would have happened just like that.

1512
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 2: And as a commander, you're supposed to be cognitively engaged

1513
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 2: in true will, I mean, and there's a little bit

1514
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:01,719
Speaker 2: of difference.

1515
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 3: So if I've got my guys.

1516
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 2: Like I always said, my team leaders for SWAT, it's like, look,

1517
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 2: your responsibility as a team leaders are what your folks

1518
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 2: are doing, not what's going on here. That's theirs and

1519
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 2: it's hard to do that. But now they've got this,

1520
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 2: you've got that. So you're telling them to have top

1521
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 2: down control is what we call it. So what's that's

1522
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 2: the term is top down versus bottom up. Top down

1523
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,679
Speaker 2: control is when I'm getting controller where my attention's going.

1524
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 2: Bottom up is when something in these terms are using

1525
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 2: a lot of different domains and science, but an attention

1526
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 2: bottom up is when something pulls so bang, something goes

1527
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 2: off and my attention gets pulled over here, Now am

1528
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 2: I driving it? What occurs a lot of times I'm

1529
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 2: gonna throw another one at you here that's going to

1530
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 2: make you go okay. So what occurs a lot of

1531
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,600
Speaker 2: times is something occurs, bang, it's unexpected, maybe it's some

1532
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 2: type of ambush, something that happens very quick, and we

1533
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 2: have a bottom up pull our attentions on whatever it's

1534
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 2: supposed to be, and then bang, something happens whatever it is.

1535
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 2: And what happens a lot of times with folks that

1536
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 2: have that oh my god. Moment it's right. Then a

1537
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 2: strong them up pull causes the external attention to go, oh,

1538
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 2: I see what I saw, and now I go.

1539
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 3: And now I'm worried about Oh my god, what am

1540
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:09,600
Speaker 3: I gonna do? Oh my god, I'm gonna die. To

1541
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 3: think about that.

1542
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 2: Is it's a very natural thing to feel as a human, right,

1543
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 2: It's the most natural thing is to go, oh my god,

1544
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 2: I'm gonna die. And I've seen people in shootings that

1545
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:24,759
Speaker 2: I was in. I've seen people stuck in this place

1546
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 2: where they're standing with their gun at slidelock, yelling.

1547
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,560
Speaker 3: Oh my god, oh my god, I had to shoot.

1548
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 2: And not even reloading because they're inside internally processing what

1549
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,720
Speaker 2: just had occurred while the gunfight's still occurring. So they

1550
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:41,640
Speaker 2: become defunct processing external information. So let me throw it

1551
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:44,719
Speaker 2: out this action. So they went internal in a real

1552
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,640
Speaker 2: situation that was at that level. And people little just

1553
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 2: talk about stress and oculation. We understand it, but it's

1554
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 2: only the tip of the iceberg. What do we really

1555
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 2: talk about when we talking.

1556
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 3: About stress evoculation?

1557
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 2: So I'll ask you this, Sean, when you went through

1558
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 2: all of your training, whether it was at the command level,

1559
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 2: where you're needing to think and process and know about

1560
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:06,679
Speaker 2: movements and all this stuff, or just your tools training,

1561
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 2: so your ergonomics with your weapons system. Where is our

1562
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 2: focus of attention when we are learning new skills, whether

1563
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 2: they're cognitive or psychomotor. What's your military police it's mostly

1564
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 2: psychomotive skills, don't we teach to pay attention to where

1565
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 2: your grip is on your gun and your site is

1566
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 2: on your eye, your cheek weld and your charging handle

1567
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 2: and your mag and everything that we do in the

1568
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 2: learning environment falls into the internal focus of attention. Quadrants

1569
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,839
Speaker 2: I'm based on off real science. It's called Nidiphe's quadrant internal, external,

1570
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,759
Speaker 2: narrow and broad. So when we learn, we're learning internal

1571
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 2: stuff internal, So we're taking our brain and it's always

1572
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:46,879
Speaker 2: internally processing how am I acting reacting with this ergonomic

1573
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:49,839
Speaker 2: tool or what am I dealing with? When I'm always

1574
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 2: thinking internally while I'm in the training environment, while I'm

1575
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 2: out there in the field and I'm in the real environment,

1576
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,800
Speaker 2: what do I know actually works as far as doing

1577
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 2: well well and actually reading is being external externally focused

1578
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 2: on what's going on. But everything I'm doing in training,

1579
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 2: i'm internal. Everything I need to be doing out there

1580
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 2: in the real world is external. There's a thing called

1581
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:17,160
Speaker 2: Hebb's law, and Hebb's law and the little saying around

1582
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:19,680
Speaker 2: that is what fires together, wires together. So it has

1583
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 2: to do with psychomotor skills. That like when we learn

1584
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 2: how to get in the car and push the button

1585
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 2: on the dashboard or use the key or where our shifter.

1586
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 3: Is on the thing.

1587
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 2: When we do those over and over again, we wire

1588
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 2: those together through these neuropathways in our brain and they

1589
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 2: become these motor movements. Right, it's motive learning. At some

1590
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 2: point everything that you do with your m four or

1591
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 2: we get to that level of automaticity where we wired

1592
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 2: all this stuff together and if we wire in the

1593
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:43,760
Speaker 2: wrong things, they can work against us.

1594
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 1: Right.

1595
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 2: We know that they're called training scars, right, We throw

1596
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 2: that term around loosely, but we're still doing that today

1597
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 2: because what we're doing is we are heaving in an

1598
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 2: internal focus of attention and traditional style of training, because

1599
01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 2: all we're doing is skilled development. Think about my hands,

1600
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 2: my fingers, I place them on my feet, my stance,

1601
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 2: what am I doing with my body versus am I

1602
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 2: reading the play? What's going on out here while this

1603
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 2: stuff is running at this level of automaticity. There needs

1604
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 2: to be more of a play built into the skill

1605
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 2: acquisition phases of all training, whether it's military or police.

1606
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:17,919
Speaker 2: Were talking about psychomot of skills.

1607
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:19,800
Speaker 3: This isn't something I made up.

1608
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 2: I got tired of thinking things through and trying to

1609
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 2: come up with good ideas before the gray hair started,

1610
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 2: because I realized they come back and bite me. And

1611
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 2: when I teach things enthusiastically and passionately fifteen years ago

1612
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 2: that later on I realized, oh my god, I got

1613
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 2: that so wrong. I used to tell people that when

1614
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 2: you reload your bag in the middle of a gunfight

1615
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:42,640
Speaker 2: on your pistol, absolutely do not try to get the

1616
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 2: slide to go forward by dropping that slidestop, because that's

1617
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 2: a fine motor skill, and at one hundred and fifty

1618
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,559
Speaker 2: beats per minute, you will have no fine motor skills.

1619
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 2: There's actually no science that supports that whatsoever. We do

1620
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 2: not lose fine motor skills at one hundred and twenty

1621
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 2: beats per minute. There's correlations, they're not causers. There's absolutely

1622
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,679
Speaker 2: no science that shows a cause effect between elevated heart

1623
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:06,799
Speaker 2: rate and performance with psychomotor skills or gross motor skills.

1624
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 2: I can show you videos of motocross drivers with heart

1625
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 2: rate mohunters on running at one hundred and ninety beats

1626
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 2: per minute through complex tests. You and I both do

1627
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 2: things very well at one hundred and seventy one hundred

1628
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 2: and eighty beats per minute. That actually we perform better

1629
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 2: if we're a little bit excited than we do is

1630
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 2: if we're calm. So these things that we train over time,

1631
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 2: but the big one is going back to that internal

1632
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 2: focus of attention during all of our skill acquisition phases

1633
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 2: and any formalized training that we do, and then throwing

1634
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:36,200
Speaker 2: out into the real situation. So what's the key to that?

1635
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 2: So I don't just like present problems. What is the

1636
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 2: answer to that?

1637
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 3: What is it?

1638
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 2: How do we address that challenge? And it's bringing the

1639
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 2: criterion environment into the skill acquisition phases all the way

1640
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 2: through training.

1641
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:47,759
Speaker 3: Does that take time? Does it take.

1642
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,719
Speaker 2: Well mindfully developed snare based training and really well developed

1643
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 2: feedback systems that we know like feedback bandwidth in terms

1644
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 2: like that that people can deep dive if they want

1645
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 2: to or sh the research on it about how we

1646
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 2: actually provide feedback and the best way that we can

1647
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 2: do a little bit and kind of pull back off

1648
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 2: as people get better.

1649
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 3: You know, there's a big deep bend.

1650
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 2: I really love focusing on the internal versus external because

1651
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 2: I can find out when I watch somebody go through

1652
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 2: snail based training. I can watch videos of real shootings

1653
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 2: or real conflict where people go, something occurs what brings

1654
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 2: them internal, and then maybe as things calm down, they'll

1655
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 2: get back external again. We'll find that usually the commands

1656
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 2: that they're saying will fit into one or two polarities.

1657
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 2: That matches right up with this. Throughout an incident where

1658
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 2: things are non stressful and people are pretty good at

1659
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 2: communicating what they mean, those are called alpha commands or

1660
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 2: alpha speech, and then as things start getting crazy, going

1661
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:45,919
Speaker 2: to either stay locked down with their alpha commands very detailed.

1662
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 3: That's very characteristic. I have an external focus of attention.

1663
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 2: Where the rational part of the brain is predominating over

1664
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 2: the emotional part of the brain. But we'll see other

1665
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 2: people going to like goofy loops, you know, drop the gun,

1666
01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:57,439
Speaker 2: drop the gun.

1667
01:16:57,479 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 3: Job. They just keep repeating the same thing and it's

1668
01:16:59,320 --> 01:16:59,839
Speaker 3: not working.

1669
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:02,719
Speaker 1: That's more give me, give me, a give me an example,

1670
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:04,439
Speaker 1: a give me Okay, so you gave me an example

1671
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 1: of drip, So give me an example of of of

1672
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 1: an alpha command. When you say you know and things

1673
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 1: are basically chill versus like you're in an actual situation, like

1674
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 1: what does right look like? And what does what is

1675
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 1: wrong look like? This is fascinating.

1676
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:19,599
Speaker 2: An alpha command is going to be something a command

1677
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:23,720
Speaker 2: that is very clear, it's unambiguous. It's very reflective of

1678
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 2: someone who has an external focus of attention and the

1679
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 2: rational brain is predominating over the emotional brain, so they're

1680
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,760
Speaker 2: in tune with what is occurring. Sir, I need you

1681
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:33,640
Speaker 2: to take your right hand and put it on the

1682
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 2: steering wheel and need you to do that for me

1683
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:39,439
Speaker 2: right now, So there's no mistake on the communication of

1684
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:41,519
Speaker 2: what you want them to do. It can even be

1685
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 2: a communication right. It can be a communication of just

1686
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 2: the way you're communicating with somebody, but its detailed and.

1687
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 3: It's specific to what's occurring.

1688
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,760
Speaker 2: Beta commands don't do that, don't do that, don't do that,

1689
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 2: don't make me shoot you, don't make me shoot you.

1690
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:58,400
Speaker 2: There's no detail or you'll see what sometimes it's referred

1691
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 2: to like a goofy loop. You know, I'm I'm dropping

1692
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 2: and I'm not gonna tell again. I'm gonna take agin

1693
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 2: dropping on dropping and I'm gonna take it and dropt

1694
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:04,600
Speaker 2: gun I'm going to take it.

1695
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 3: So they get in this thing and what's occurring usually

1696
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,360
Speaker 3: is they're they're.

1697
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 2: Seeing something, but they're back inside their brain and they're

1698
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 2: stuck into a problem solvum state.

1699
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:14,559
Speaker 3: Right, we're trying to figure out what do I do next?

1700
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 3: What do I do next? An internal focus of attention,

1701
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,760
Speaker 3: and a lot of times that will also be upon

1702
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:22,760
Speaker 3: investigation later on down the road. They'll find that when

1703
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:25,520
Speaker 3: they talk to these folks that go through these situations

1704
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:29,560
Speaker 3: while they're having these very detailed commands and then you know,

1705
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:31,759
Speaker 3: the shit hits the fan and all of a sudden

1706
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 3: they go in and get more beta type commands and

1707
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:36,240
Speaker 3: then if it works out or whatever, they survive it,

1708
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:38,880
Speaker 3: and then they get more detailed. It also tracks with

1709
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 3: their memory, because what we know about attention is we

1710
01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 3: only remember the things that we attend to. Right, that's

1711
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 3: selective attention tunnel vision. And that's a whole another two.

1712
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 2: Hours of talk, and I won't get it too, but

1713
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:50,920
Speaker 2: it really is important to understand that when we are

1714
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:53,680
Speaker 2: more alpha commands we're more rationally focused. Our memory is

1715
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 2: more clear about what was occurring. When we get that

1716
01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:58,640
Speaker 2: bottom up and internal focus. A lot of times the

1717
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 2: memory and an interview will be, oh, my god, I

1718
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:02,559
Speaker 2: thought I was gonna die. My life lasts in front

1719
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 2: of my safe, my face, my eyes. I thought about

1720
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 2: my kids. I'm not going to make it home tonight.

1721
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:11,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember having those feelings on callouts, but

1722
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:14,599
Speaker 2: they weren't in the middle of the action sequence. They

1723
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 2: were during the planning stages where we're going to go

1724
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 2: in here and I don't know if I'm gonna see

1725
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:22,760
Speaker 2: my kids tomorrow because I know I'm gonna be right

1726
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 2: up front. Okay, good with that. Yeah, let's go get focused.

1727
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 2: You got guys depending on Okay, all right, let's go.

1728
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 2: You can have those thoughts. There's times that you're going

1729
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 2: to be in all of these quadrants and you can

1730
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:37,920
Speaker 2: flash around them in a moment. But when it comes

1731
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,599
Speaker 2: to I need to act and react in something that's

1732
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 2: occurring right away, our training should be geared towards trying

1733
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 2: to build the muscle. As I say, I have top

1734
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 2: down control of your attention, recognizing when something pushed you internally,

1735
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 2: and getting right back externally focused on what's occurring, so

1736
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 2: you can process information so your decisions and actions are

1737
01:19:58,000 --> 01:19:59,160
Speaker 2: going to be as close.

1738
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 3: To right as poss.

1739
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 1: Jeez. This is this is fascinating, and this is all

1740
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:09,040
Speaker 1: the stuff that you do at the Force Science Institute,

1741
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 1: all things that are I mean you're working with other

1742
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies to train other to train.

1743
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:19,360
Speaker 3: Yes, we run the courses. Our MOI course is the

1744
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:23,680
Speaker 3: big train the trainer one. I also teach about two

1745
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 3: and a half days.

1746
01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:27,160
Speaker 2: In our five day course, which is our certification course,

1747
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,040
Speaker 2: analyst course, so we get a mix usually you know

1748
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 2: about forty of trainers and then investigators, and that one's

1749
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 2: based on human performance factors, so that course is really

1750
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:40,800
Speaker 2: human So we're looking at things like and there's a

1751
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:45,840
Speaker 2: there's nine instructors on staff, medical doctors PhDs, peer reviewed

1752
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 2: papers they've been responsible for.

1753
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:48,880
Speaker 3: As contrary to what you're in the.

1754
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 2: News, our research is peer reviewed and some of the

1755
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 2: most stringent journals in the country, and our partnering instructors

1756
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:57,599
Speaker 2: with that as well.

1757
01:20:57,640 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 3: And they talk about the things I cover is like

1758
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 3: limited and human.

1759
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:05,719
Speaker 2: Performance factors are on vision, attention, memory, human error, decision making.

1760
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 2: We get in the context cues and schemas they look

1761
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 2: about the physiology around the eye the brain. A lot

1762
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,639
Speaker 2: of research that we've done on action and reaction times,

1763
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:17,800
Speaker 2: and it's there too with our research side of the house.

1764
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 2: So we have three main divisions. Training is where I'm at,

1765
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 2: Our research division there, which is doctor Lewinsky and the

1766
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:28,720
Speaker 2: doctors that we have on staff and partnering PhDs and

1767
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:33,080
Speaker 2: medical doctors doing research all the time and publications. And

1768
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 2: then our consulting division. And that's where the people that

1769
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:38,200
Speaker 2: are outside law enforcement, they only know us from consulting

1770
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:40,680
Speaker 2: because some of the high profile cases that you know,

1771
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 2: our names come up in the background when you know,

1772
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:46,280
Speaker 2: some officer that was charged had charges dismissed because of

1773
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 2: the testimony of an expert that went through for science training,

1774
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,240
Speaker 2: and it isn't that it's it's you know, for science,

1775
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,320
Speaker 2: it's the research around the.

1776
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 3: Subjects of human factors. So understanding.

1777
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,800
Speaker 2: How normal slip and capture errors are, what is the

1778
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 2: realistic time frames that we're dealing with, and our human

1779
01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:10,400
Speaker 2: limitations as far as action and reaction and a dynamic situation,

1780
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 2: you know, how fast can things occur. A lot of

1781
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:15,679
Speaker 2: people don't realize that, you know, if I'm not expecting

1782
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 2: something to occur, and all of a sudden there's an

1783
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 2: ambush that I didn't see coming. I didn't predict any

1784
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 2: part of that that It takes about three hundred milliseconds

1785
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 2: close to that are approximation at three hundred milliseconds a

1786
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 2: third of a second before my brain even notices a

1787
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,439
Speaker 2: change in my environment. And maybe I can get a

1788
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 2: flinch response quick, but it's not an organized response, whether

1789
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 2: it's productive or not. An organized response doesn't even start

1790
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:40,640
Speaker 2: after that. And if someone pulls a gun and out

1791
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:42,799
Speaker 2: of their waistband, they can do that in a quarter second,

1792
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 2: and they can fire five rounds in the first second,

1793
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:47,960
Speaker 2: but it takes most officers about one and a half

1794
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:49,680
Speaker 2: to two seconds to get their gun out of the

1795
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,200
Speaker 2: holster for one round. How many rounds are you eating

1796
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 2: before you can even return fire if it's an ambush,

1797
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 2: And the answer to that is going to be five, six,

1798
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 2: seven rounds sometimes before, and that's if they're not hit

1799
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:03,719
Speaker 2: at point blank range and the ranges that we're getting

1800
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 2: hit at. So all that data, a lot of that

1801
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 2: data comes from LEOCA, but a lot of the data

1802
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:10,160
Speaker 2: comes from our ability to perceive.

1803
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 3: And act and react, and it lines right up and

1804
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:13,479
Speaker 3: some of our research.

1805
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:15,960
Speaker 2: And you know, obviously when things go to court, there's

1806
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:17,800
Speaker 2: going to be all types of battles and courts and

1807
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,599
Speaker 2: everybody's sling mud and all that kind of stuff, which

1808
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:22,479
Speaker 2: is I like to stay on the training side.

1809
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:23,360
Speaker 3: Of the house where I really like it.

1810
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 2: I've been in court with all those cases while I

1811
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:28,760
Speaker 2: was on the job for twenty eight years, so I

1812
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 2: leave that to the legal experts on that. But I've

1813
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 2: done some consultation, I've done some expert work. People do

1814
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:38,400
Speaker 2: turn to us when it comes to looking at human factors,

1815
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 2: and as I say, we are here looking at the

1816
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,880
Speaker 2: research and other experts to help educate. We're educating about

1817
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:47,600
Speaker 2: human factors. To me, when it comes to consultation and

1818
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 2: expert work, it's really about education. These are some facts,

1819
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:54,360
Speaker 2: here's some data. Here's some things that we may not

1820
01:23:54,600 --> 01:23:58,200
Speaker 2: understand about conflict and dynamic situation when it comes to

1821
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 2: realistic timeframes. What about your expectations of officer performance, Sean,

1822
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:07,240
Speaker 2: Did you know that if you play high school football

1823
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:10,839
Speaker 2: for four years, that's one sport with an off season.

1824
01:24:12,479 --> 01:24:14,840
Speaker 2: If you added up all of the practices that you

1825
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 2: go to in all of the game time that you

1826
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 2: go to. In four years of playing a seasonal sport,

1827
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:22,800
Speaker 2: you will get more time training and game time on

1828
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:25,759
Speaker 2: the field than most police officers will get in training

1829
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 2: over a twenty year career.

1830
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:31,479
Speaker 3: You will get more training.

1831
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 2: If you get a job at pet Goo to shave

1832
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:38,880
Speaker 2: a dog's hair unsupervised, you will go through more hours

1833
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:42,600
Speaker 2: of training and excess than a police officer gets in

1834
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 2: a police academy.

1835
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:45,960
Speaker 3: That's traditionally across the board.

1836
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:51,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so what's your take on You know politicians

1837
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:55,040
Speaker 1: who will say in a use of four scenario, well

1838
01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:57,040
Speaker 1: did you have to did you have to take them out?

1839
01:24:57,080 --> 01:24:58,519
Speaker 1: Why couldn't you just shoot him in the leg?

1840
01:24:58,920 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 3: You got it.

1841
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 5: All stuff that you've seen and all the stuff that

1842
01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 5: you're out there teaching. You got to hear that stuff

1843
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:07,600
Speaker 5: and just be like, God, these people are idiots. You

1844
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 5: have to think that I'm saying that. You don't have

1845
01:25:10,479 --> 01:25:11,320
Speaker 5: to say that. Yes.

1846
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 2: The frustrating is I look at it a couple of ways,

1847
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,599
Speaker 2: because sometimes I'll get and I would get calls back

1848
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 2: on the job from like the DA's off. There's just

1849
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:20,880
Speaker 2: looking to understand and it's like, can you help us

1850
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:22,599
Speaker 2: understand this, and I'm like, yeah, I got some good

1851
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 2: research on it. But there's you know, there's a lot

1852
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 2: of things that people really oversimplify when it comes to

1853
01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:33,920
Speaker 2: looking at these types of dynamic situations. And it does

1854
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 2: get frustrating when you hear things like, well, you know,

1855
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:39,360
Speaker 2: they drop the gun and the officer fired two more rounds,

1856
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 2: and you know they should have been able to, should have,

1857
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:43,840
Speaker 2: could have, would and those are all hindsight bias. We

1858
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 2: know that there's research out there that says, even if

1859
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:48,640
Speaker 2: I'm looking at the difference between a green light and

1860
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:50,720
Speaker 2: a red light and I'm firing at a target, as

1861
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 2: soon as the green light turns to red or whatever

1862
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 2: color changes something just as simple as that, I'll still

1863
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 2: fire two rounds before my brain sees the change, and

1864
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,439
Speaker 2: then I can stop the behavior of this. Okay, that's

1865
01:26:02,479 --> 01:26:04,880
Speaker 2: a that's called US closed loop because it's closed loop

1866
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,519
Speaker 2: motor program versus an open loop motor program. So I

1867
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 2: start to get feedback that something's changed, and now my

1868
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 2: body can change. So we have we have research that'll

1869
01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 2: show that, you know, there's a minimum amount of time,

1870
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,320
Speaker 2: but that is if the person's getting the feedback. What

1871
01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:20,880
Speaker 2: if someone is in a gunfight and they're firing their

1872
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 2: gun going oh my god, I'm gonna die. Are they

1873
01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:26,640
Speaker 2: actually reading that christon gun dropping or falling or the

1874
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:29,439
Speaker 2: play pad, or are they firing with their eyes going

1875
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm gonna die. Now, then this thing

1876
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,599
Speaker 2: is over with. I've seen cases where the gunfight, entire

1877
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:38,960
Speaker 2: gunfights of multiple rounds last you know, less than two seconds,

1878
01:26:40,240 --> 01:26:43,400
Speaker 2: three point seventy five seconds, and an officer was asked

1879
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty seven questions about three point five

1880
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 2: seconds in their life during the middle of a gunfight

1881
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:50,360
Speaker 2: where another officer was shot, and they're supposed to have

1882
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:53,600
Speaker 2: detailed play by play information. We know in research that

1883
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 2: human memory doesn't work that way. It doesn't slow things

1884
01:26:56,840 --> 01:26:59,400
Speaker 2: down like we watch a you know, a game day

1885
01:26:59,439 --> 01:27:01,840
Speaker 2: on Sunday, where we can slow things down and start

1886
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:05,280
Speaker 2: picking all these little details apart. What if we're internally focused,

1887
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:08,120
Speaker 2: our memory about that is very caluded. What if we're

1888
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:09,920
Speaker 2: looking at the gun and we can't see anything else

1889
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:13,919
Speaker 2: because of tunnel vision, which most people, including in military

1890
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,639
Speaker 2: and law enforcement, were trained like I was, that that's

1891
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:18,639
Speaker 2: a really bad thing and we need to trade people

1892
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:21,759
Speaker 2: to avoid that. There couldn't be anything further from the truth.

1893
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:25,280
Speaker 2: Tunnel vision is actually called selective attention. The information that

1894
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:29,240
Speaker 2: we can't process during that period is called in intentional blindness.

1895
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 2: The thing we know is that with experience, we know

1896
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 2: where we need to focus our attention. That usually works

1897
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 2: in our favor. That's why we can see that it's

1898
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:39,960
Speaker 2: a gun and not a cell phone. On the amount

1899
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 2: of times that we can't count, we can't quantify how

1900
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:45,640
Speaker 2: many times officers didn't use a certain force or detective

1901
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 2: because of information they picked up because their attention was there.

1902
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:51,080
Speaker 2: The problem is we can't quantify when these things work

1903
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 2: out for us. They can only quantify when it didn't

1904
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:56,439
Speaker 2: work out, when it worked against us. So yes, the

1905
01:27:56,479 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 2: give and take to that is, yeah, you can't process

1906
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 2: a lot of information around that most important thing. That's

1907
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:04,719
Speaker 2: in intentional blindness. That's the downside of the tunnel vision.

1908
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:08,600
Speaker 2: We can't have external and brought it external it now intensely.

1909
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:12,360
Speaker 2: At the same time, it doesn't occur. There's situational awareness

1910
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 2: from before and after, but when someone's actually going to

1911
01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:17,600
Speaker 2: bring that gun or whatever it is up, we go

1912
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 2: boom right there, and it's exactly where we should be.

1913
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:22,720
Speaker 2: Externally narrowly focused on the action so I can act

1914
01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:25,639
Speaker 2: and react to that. And again, all these things trying

1915
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:28,040
Speaker 2: to build it, and the training is important, but does

1916
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 2: it get frustrated that we're constantly trying to educate people

1917
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:35,639
Speaker 2: on this and it isn't mainstream education or mainstream understanding

1918
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 2: by now. I don't think it's ever going to be

1919
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:41,240
Speaker 2: sean because even people that have done this job for

1920
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 2: many years will go up through the ranks and when

1921
01:28:43,280 --> 01:28:44,920
Speaker 2: the pressures and all of a sudden they become.

1922
01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 3: Deputy chiefs and chiefs.

1923
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:51,120
Speaker 2: And again I admire most chiefs I've worked for fantastic

1924
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:54,519
Speaker 2: at their job. But again the unsung heroes and masses

1925
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:56,920
Speaker 2: that are out there really fighting the good fight out there.

1926
01:28:56,960 --> 01:28:58,799
Speaker 2: But there's people come out and look at the situation

1927
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:04,480
Speaker 2: and because of the optics, look so bad. Automatically negligence

1928
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:07,400
Speaker 2: and then culpability just get sucked into there like leeches,

1929
01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:10,840
Speaker 2: and it's like until you really understand what happened, what

1930
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 2: this person was going through in the moment, we have

1931
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 2: to reserve judgment. It's very hard to do. It's hard

1932
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 2: for me even when I'll look at something on the

1933
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:20,880
Speaker 2: news go oh, and it's like, really wait till get

1934
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 2: all of the files and the three gigs of information

1935
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 2: on to start appel in that onion a way, and

1936
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:27,479
Speaker 2: then especially talk that officer about what they were seeing

1937
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:30,880
Speaker 2: and perceiving and thinking in the moments where that occurred.

1938
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:34,000
Speaker 1: There's such a tendency in our culture today to blame

1939
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:38,439
Speaker 1: the officer or not without really fully understanding the scenario,

1940
01:29:38,479 --> 01:29:40,120
Speaker 1: which is why I was so careful talking about the

1941
01:29:40,240 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 1: FBI thing. It's just a whole lot of stuff I

1942
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:46,439
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, it's just what do you think about?

1943
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:49,840
Speaker 1: And again, like I don't want to put you on

1944
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 1: the spot or any of this stuff, but like, what

1945
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 1: do you think about the defund the police stuff? You

1946
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:56,599
Speaker 1: said earlier in the interview, and one of the first

1947
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:59,120
Speaker 1: things you said, this is a thankless job, do you

1948
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:02,000
Speaker 1: Is that something that you into thinking, like, hey, people

1949
01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:03,880
Speaker 1: are never going to fully understand what I do. But

1950
01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:05,920
Speaker 1: I don't do it for them. I do it for

1951
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:10,160
Speaker 1: myself and the people around me that wear this badge

1952
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:14,120
Speaker 1: on their chest. Does the defund the police stuff does

1953
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:14,720
Speaker 1: it bother you?

1954
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 3: It does?

1955
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 2: But I look at it like these are just phases

1956
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:23,840
Speaker 2: that our country goes through. It's new for us. That

1957
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:25,720
Speaker 2: are in this role right now, but it's not new

1958
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:28,439
Speaker 2: for the profession right the terms our defund or whatever

1959
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:32,360
Speaker 2: it was. But you know, law enforcement's gone through older

1960
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:34,400
Speaker 2: guys that are still around can talk about times in

1961
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:37,080
Speaker 2: the sixties and the seventies where you know, this is

1962
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 2: your fight now, guys, but we went through stuff too,

1963
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 2: and it always seems like it's much worse now and

1964
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, I feel like it is too,

1965
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:47,640
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm hoping that the pendulum is going

1966
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 2: to swing because that's the way things occur. Things happen

1967
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:54,800
Speaker 2: for a reason. Has law enforcement gone out and have

1968
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:58,360
Speaker 2: we learned how to be more accountable to ourselves here

1969
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 2: or each other. I'm hoping there's going to be a

1970
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:03,680
Speaker 2: silver lining to all of this when the pendulum does

1971
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:05,760
Speaker 2: swing the other way. To me, what I'm hoping for

1972
01:31:06,200 --> 01:31:08,360
Speaker 2: are people going to realize that if we want to

1973
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:11,439
Speaker 2: improve what's going on out there in the street, we

1974
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:16,960
Speaker 2: need to invest properly into building better police officers. We

1975
01:31:17,080 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 2: need the resources, we need the training, we need the

1976
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:23,600
Speaker 2: culture to change from a training perspective, and that's it.

1977
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:23,960
Speaker 3: I mean.

1978
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:26,640
Speaker 2: The other part is like if you got into this

1979
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 2: job because you wanted to wear, you know, the cape

1980
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 2: and get the pat on the back like you know,

1981
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:33,760
Speaker 2: you know, thank you, Long Ranger or Superman or whatever

1982
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:36,439
Speaker 2: it is. It's the wrong job for that it is.

1983
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:41,160
Speaker 2: It has to be an intrinsic motivation. It has to

1984
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:43,000
Speaker 2: be a sense of duty. It has to be a

1985
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:46,000
Speaker 2: sense of you know what, I like this job more

1986
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:49,560
Speaker 2: because people don't like me for it. It kind of

1987
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 2: makes it niche like you just don't understand it to

1988
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:54,760
Speaker 2: the point where I'm going to still come and help

1989
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 2: you whether you like me or not. And if you

1990
01:31:57,360 --> 01:31:59,400
Speaker 2: can affect people on a one to one basis, because

1991
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 2: there'll be people out on the street holding the sandwich

1992
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:04,679
Speaker 2: boards and yelling, and then you're there at their house

1993
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:07,320
Speaker 2: at night, tending to their child, or dealing with them

1994
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:10,000
Speaker 2: and getting somebody out of a house, or or fixing

1995
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:12,360
Speaker 2: a situation and solving a problem for them that they

1996
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:16,479
Speaker 2: cannot solve themselves. And we do that consistently millions of

1997
01:32:16,600 --> 01:32:19,720
Speaker 2: times across this country every single day and every single night.

1998
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:22,400
Speaker 2: Nobody says boo, and nobody says thank you. And we

1999
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:24,440
Speaker 2: don't I speaking of myself.

2000
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:26,200
Speaker 3: Here, we don't need it. We don't need it.

2001
01:32:26,439 --> 01:32:27,720
Speaker 2: We don't need to thank you. We don't need to

2002
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:29,479
Speaker 2: pat on the back. Just like when people say thank

2003
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:32,200
Speaker 2: you for your service, it's like, I appreciate it, but

2004
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:34,400
Speaker 2: isn't why I did it. It isn't why we do

2005
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:36,640
Speaker 2: it right. We do it because it's the right thing

2006
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:38,840
Speaker 2: to do. And we know we're going to get cast

2007
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:41,800
Speaker 2: into situations that most people will never have to face,

2008
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:43,760
Speaker 2: and we're going to have to go over and over

2009
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 2: and over again into these situations where our split second

2010
01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:49,760
Speaker 2: decisions are going to be held out and magnified and

2011
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:52,360
Speaker 2: slowed down and picked apart. And if we don't have

2012
01:32:52,439 --> 01:32:54,720
Speaker 2: people are willing to do that, then I won't have.

2013
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:56,680
Speaker 2: You know, then I have a loss for where the

2014
01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:58,800
Speaker 2: society is going. But we're still going to have people

2015
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:00,680
Speaker 2: that are willing to go into this job and go

2016
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:03,439
Speaker 2: out there and do this thankless job understanding that you're

2017
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 2: not going to get the pats on the back. There's

2018
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:06,639
Speaker 2: a lot of things that you're going to be dealing

2019
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:08,880
Speaker 2: with for the rest of your life and as far

2020
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:10,919
Speaker 2: as wellness and mental wellness.

2021
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:12,639
Speaker 3: But we do need.

2022
01:33:12,640 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 2: Strong Americans to come out here and do this job.

2023
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:16,400
Speaker 3: And they're there.

2024
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:18,080
Speaker 2: They're there. We need more of.

2025
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:20,640
Speaker 1: Well, I have to tell you. I mean, you know

2026
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:25,519
Speaker 1: you talked about training and investing in building better police officers.

2027
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:28,479
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And what I've noticed over over

2028
01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 1: the last few years now is that the defund the

2029
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:39,519
Speaker 1: police movement it was, it made people good people hesitant

2030
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 1: to join. I mean in Pennsylvania, which is where I'm from, Like,

2031
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 1: I've got so many friends who are police officers or

2032
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:49,320
Speaker 1: even working as state police, or even working on the FBI.

2033
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean so many people that are great, great human

2034
01:33:52,479 --> 01:33:54,960
Speaker 1: beings that look at the way that our leaders. Again,

2035
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 1: on both sides of the aisle. This isn't I'm not

2036
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 1: getting overtly political here, but on both sides of the aisle,

2037
01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:03,559
Speaker 1: like the Monday morning quarterback things. And now we've got

2038
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:06,719
Speaker 1: a recruiting crisis of for people for the state police

2039
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:10,040
Speaker 1: here in the great state of Pennsylvania. And it's primarily

2040
01:34:10,160 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 1: because people don't want the headache, I feel like, and

2041
01:34:14,320 --> 01:34:15,360
Speaker 1: I think that's a problem.

2042
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:17,839
Speaker 3: It's a tough time for us our classes.

2043
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,920
Speaker 2: When I was running the academy, we were I would say, look,

2044
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:24,000
Speaker 2: we got to shut the door at fifty fifty recruits.

2045
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 2: Other than that, then I get the time on the

2046
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 2: range and the cars. It gets really challenging. Sometimes we'd

2047
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:31,719
Speaker 2: stretch it out to sixty because we'd get some fallof

2048
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:34,760
Speaker 2: some you know, people that didn't make it through, and

2049
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:37,240
Speaker 2: it was still pushing it. We'd have up to one

2050
01:34:37,280 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 2: thousand people looking to get into the job and we're

2051
01:34:40,320 --> 01:34:42,960
Speaker 2: going through our phases of hiring on those. We never

2052
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:45,559
Speaker 2: had to recruit anything. The last academy, I just went

2053
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:47,280
Speaker 2: and did a couple of days on decision making. I

2054
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 2: think there were nine recruits. And that's regional. That's not

2055
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:55,120
Speaker 2: just our city, it's regional. And I'm not there now.

2056
01:34:55,240 --> 01:34:57,600
Speaker 2: The other folks are but still going to our New

2057
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:00,439
Speaker 2: York State Directors meeting, they were still touting that Syracuse

2058
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:02,639
Speaker 2: Academy is probably one of the best or the best

2059
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:05,360
Speaker 2: academy in the state still because of what we've done

2060
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:09,720
Speaker 2: with addressing these issues of you know, combating block and

2061
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:14,839
Speaker 2: silotype training, interleaving and this ecological dynamic approach to training

2062
01:35:15,080 --> 01:35:17,680
Speaker 2: with constraints let approach, and any people that are out

2063
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:20,479
Speaker 2: there listening to this, that are on the finger on

2064
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:22,719
Speaker 2: the pulse on that just they just got all excited

2065
01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:24,360
Speaker 2: and the heartbeat just went up a little bit. But yeah,

2066
01:35:24,400 --> 01:35:27,759
Speaker 2: we're doing that stuff too, and still we've got nine.

2067
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's hit us. It's hit us, and you know, honestly,

2068
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:33,400
Speaker 2: I can't blame them. The other thing that we've found,

2069
01:35:33,479 --> 01:35:35,880
Speaker 2: and I've seen this as I travel Sean, is some

2070
01:35:36,080 --> 01:35:38,760
Speaker 2: of the some of the you know, you've got your

2071
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:42,160
Speaker 2: city agencies like where I worked in Syracuse. You've got

2072
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:44,760
Speaker 2: these agencies around whatever, Cleveland, and you have your main

2073
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 2: cities where there's there's cops working there, and then you've

2074
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:50,000
Speaker 2: got outskirts and the towns and villages where you have

2075
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:53,559
Speaker 2: smaller departments, smaller communities, and there's a lot of people

2076
01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:55,439
Speaker 2: that are getting hired by the bigger cities and then

2077
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:57,760
Speaker 2: they're baneling and going out to the small as they

2078
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 2: open up. They're trying to get out of that environment

2079
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 2: because and one thing is, you know, like I said,

2080
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:10,360
Speaker 2: the amount of they're so busy, they're so busy they

2081
01:36:10,439 --> 01:36:13,640
Speaker 2: can't I mean, I remember days you can't even You're like,

2082
01:36:13,800 --> 01:36:15,400
Speaker 2: I can't answer one more call before I have to

2083
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:17,040
Speaker 2: find a bathroom after urinate. I can't.

2084
01:36:17,200 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 3: I've been holding it for the last six calls.

2085
01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:22,080
Speaker 2: And you can't go and stop when your buddy's got

2086
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 2: something going on over here and you got to get there.

2087
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 2: It's it's that busy, uh, and it's tough, so it

2088
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:31,360
Speaker 2: really wears you down. I talk about this once in

2089
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:33,760
Speaker 2: a while, that the idea of what a like a

2090
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:36,479
Speaker 2: good cop like you're feeling your own feeling about I

2091
01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:37,679
Speaker 2: had a good day at work today.

2092
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:40,719
Speaker 3: I did a good job. So what is that all about?

2093
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:40,960
Speaker 1: Right?

2094
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 2: What is what is it that makes you feel good

2095
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:47,000
Speaker 2: about your job today? And you know it's I mean,

2096
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 2: don't do something good for someone that always feels good, right,

2097
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:53,439
Speaker 2: somebody appreciates you. Yeah, the panel back, it's there. Like

2098
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:55,479
Speaker 2: I said, I appreciate it, don't need it, but it

2099
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:59,720
Speaker 2: does feel good. What's changed over the years is I've

2100
01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:03,400
Speaker 2: seen is thorough in this, especially when I work for

2101
01:37:03,439 --> 01:37:05,439
Speaker 2: smaller departments. I worked for a couple of small departments

2102
01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 2: for a short time, being really thorough putting your time

2103
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:11,240
Speaker 2: into something, making sure you covered all your bases, and

2104
01:37:11,320 --> 01:37:13,639
Speaker 2: the way you talk to people and everything else was good.

2105
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 2: You've followed up on your stuff, and you did a

2106
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:17,800
Speaker 2: good job for somebody. So at the end of the day,

2107
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:21,200
Speaker 2: they're like they really went out of their way for me.

2108
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:23,720
Speaker 2: It felt really good to do it. When you work

2109
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 2: for a city agency, and like I said, I wasn't joking.

2110
01:37:26,479 --> 01:37:29,000
Speaker 2: Your twenty calls backed up on a Friday in February

2111
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:30,880
Speaker 2: or two feet of snow and a blizzard, and you're

2112
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 2: still twenty calls backed up in your territory?

2113
01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:35,599
Speaker 3: What makes you? You know that good?

2114
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:38,360
Speaker 2: The good cop, if you will to be, is the

2115
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:40,559
Speaker 2: one that can knock them calls down before they turned

2116
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:43,200
Speaker 2: the car over to the next shift. So you're trying

2117
01:37:43,240 --> 01:37:45,599
Speaker 2: to be efficient, but you're also trying to get these

2118
01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:47,400
Speaker 2: calls knocked out. You're going there, Yes, what can I

2119
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 2: help you with?

2120
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 3: Good?

2121
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:50,519
Speaker 2: Not a police matter. Sorry, but you know what I mean.

2122
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:53,560
Speaker 2: It's just cops end up being at the expense of

2123
01:37:53,880 --> 01:37:56,519
Speaker 2: our own how people view us. They end up being

2124
01:37:56,680 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 2: very curt about the business end of what we do

2125
01:37:59,360 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 2: and what we're engaged over there. Because I just cleared

2126
01:38:02,360 --> 01:38:04,559
Speaker 2: ten calls and I've got fifteen more to go before

2127
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:06,320
Speaker 2: i turned this car over to the next guy, who

2128
01:38:06,360 --> 01:38:09,479
Speaker 2: I appreciate, and I'm not leaving his territory all messed

2129
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 2: up because I was spending thirty minutes talking someone. So

2130
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:16,000
Speaker 2: they feel good about the police when I couldn't want

2131
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:16,880
Speaker 2: to three more calls.

2132
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:18,280
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of things.

2133
01:38:18,120 --> 01:38:20,519
Speaker 2: About the culture inside of the day to day that

2134
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 2: a lot of folks aren't aware of either that the

2135
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 2: cop isn't just being mean or anything. They're just they're

2136
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:28,639
Speaker 2: really trying to get to more people, to serve more

2137
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:30,680
Speaker 2: people and get that job done to turn the car over.

2138
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:32,080
Speaker 2: So it's just a little things that a lot of

2139
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:32,840
Speaker 2: people aren't aware of.

2140
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:35,160
Speaker 1: You know, Well, Mike, I could talk to you forever,

2141
01:38:35,320 --> 01:38:37,080
Speaker 1: but we've already been talking for an hour and forty

2142
01:38:37,120 --> 01:38:38,960
Speaker 1: five minutes. Can I have you back at some point

2143
01:38:39,040 --> 01:38:39,519
Speaker 1: to talk more?

2144
01:38:39,640 --> 01:38:39,720
Speaker 2: Oh?

2145
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:42,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. I got all kinds of stories I.

2146
01:38:42,760 --> 01:38:44,400
Speaker 1: Love well, I want to hear them. I want to

2147
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:46,640
Speaker 1: hear them. And now that I'm doing this, I do

2148
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 1: this nightly show at five. It's a live stream where

2149
01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:52,920
Speaker 1: I would love to have you back on that show

2150
01:38:52,920 --> 01:38:55,200
Speaker 1: as well, to just get your feedback about some of these,

2151
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:58,479
Speaker 1: you know, tactical situations, just like what happened, I mean,

2152
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:01,120
Speaker 1: not not get political. To give me a breakdown of

2153
01:39:01,200 --> 01:39:04,200
Speaker 1: what's going through the minds of these officers when they

2154
01:39:04,800 --> 01:39:10,000
Speaker 1: enter scenarios like this. Okay, so how can people help you?

2155
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:12,560
Speaker 1: Is there something that this audience can do for the

2156
01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:16,920
Speaker 1: Forced Science Institute, or you personally, I just say.

2157
01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 3: Check us out, you know, go on our website Www.

2158
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:21,920
Speaker 2: Dot for science dot com and like I said, whether

2159
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:24,120
Speaker 2: you're in an investigation side of the house or training,

2160
01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:27,280
Speaker 2: there's information there, consultation is there.

2161
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:28,760
Speaker 3: And then the research part.

2162
01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:31,320
Speaker 2: You can look and see the publications, the peer reviewed

2163
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:34,640
Speaker 2: publications that are out there is for us research in

2164
01:39:34,760 --> 01:39:36,720
Speaker 2: the past, what we have, things that we're working on

2165
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:39,200
Speaker 2: will be coming out on there as well. Follow us

2166
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:41,559
Speaker 2: on LinkedIn and a lot of time. We just finished

2167
01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:45,479
Speaker 2: a study in Mesa, Arizona, and head a few papers

2168
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:48,519
Speaker 2: peer reviewed and published recently with the use of eye

2169
01:39:48,600 --> 01:39:53,000
Speaker 2: trackers during dynamic situations, which I'm telling you, Sean, this

2170
01:39:53,160 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 2: is really something that you know, a lot of times

2171
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:57,679
Speaker 2: when we're doing research on this, we're looking for certain

2172
01:39:57,760 --> 01:40:00,200
Speaker 2: things that we're testing and measuring, and then we'll get

2173
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 2: a lot of other data and we've found some really

2174
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:04,920
Speaker 2: neat things. And I loved you guys get exposed to

2175
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:07,880
Speaker 2: once everything's out with the video, but eye trackers on

2176
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:12,000
Speaker 2: officers during a situation, along with body worn cameras and

2177
01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 2: you can go into court and you can talk about

2178
01:40:14,080 --> 01:40:16,360
Speaker 2: how a body warm camera is not what the officer's

2179
01:40:16,400 --> 01:40:20,560
Speaker 2: actually seeing. It's just a representation of capturing information. But

2180
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 2: when something doesn't turn out well and a jury's looking

2181
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:25,120
Speaker 2: like that, it's like, I can see it. Why isn't

2182
01:40:25,160 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 2: that officer? What do you mean they're not seeing it?

2183
01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:28,720
Speaker 2: That's their camera, that's what they're seeing. And now we

2184
01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:32,320
Speaker 2: have eye trackers on that are basically they're able to

2185
01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:36,200
Speaker 2: show on the screen with a video of a real situation.

2186
01:40:36,439 --> 01:40:38,719
Speaker 2: That's a real scenario. I should say that was built

2187
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:41,840
Speaker 2: up with an action sequence to it within half a

2188
01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:45,679
Speaker 2: degree of visual angle error of where that officer's focal

2189
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:49,200
Speaker 2: vision was as they're moving around, siding around the scene.

2190
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:52,559
Speaker 2: So as they're doing that, we have it SYNCD up

2191
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:55,519
Speaker 2: with their body worn camera's side by side, and now

2192
01:40:55,600 --> 01:40:57,960
Speaker 2: you get to see the difference between a bodyworm camera

2193
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:01,080
Speaker 2: and the eye tracker all synced up on the same timeline,

2194
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:04,439
Speaker 2: and they're two separate movies. You've got a picture and

2195
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:06,680
Speaker 2: you've got the officer looking at someone's face over here,

2196
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:08,760
Speaker 2: and I think it's just it's nice again.

2197
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:10,840
Speaker 3: It's not like we don't look at it as like ha,

2198
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:11,519
Speaker 3: here it is.

2199
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 2: It's really like this is this is a representation the

2200
01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:18,559
Speaker 2: video format of what we're trying to explain about attention

2201
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:21,960
Speaker 2: and vision and how we process information, our ability to

2202
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:26,280
Speaker 2: see these things, and it's just a real good visual

2203
01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:27,920
Speaker 2: of being able to see that along with all the

2204
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:30,640
Speaker 2: other data that they went through with the research and

2205
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:33,640
Speaker 2: all that and how that came out. So a lot

2206
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:36,160
Speaker 2: of good research coming out. So again our websites there

2207
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:38,360
Speaker 2: go on the training on that and you can see

2208
01:41:38,360 --> 01:41:41,160
Speaker 2: those breakdown of the instructors and our instructor cadre with

2209
01:41:41,240 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 2: all the PhDs, the mpts, the knuckle dragon nerds like

2210
01:41:44,280 --> 01:41:46,840
Speaker 2: me that are just trained to I always say my

2211
01:41:47,040 --> 01:41:49,679
Speaker 2: job is to work with the researchers and the scientists,

2212
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 2: and my part is application. So there's always been a

2213
01:41:53,120 --> 01:41:56,280
Speaker 2: chasm between what's going on in the halls of academia

2214
01:41:56,360 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 2: and what's actually occurring out there in the real world.

2215
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:01,080
Speaker 2: And I don't care if it's military, these, you name it.

2216
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:03,880
Speaker 2: Some places in sports they've been able to take what

2217
01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 2: we know about learning more learning and apply it immediately

2218
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 2: into division on professional sports and law enforcement.

2219
01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:10,679
Speaker 3: It seems to get further in front ofther away.

2220
01:42:10,800 --> 01:42:13,760
Speaker 2: So my job and what I really like doing is

2221
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:18,200
Speaker 2: being very very aware of the research and spending a

2222
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:20,280
Speaker 2: lot of hours understanding that top of the PCs and

2223
01:42:20,360 --> 01:42:23,800
Speaker 2: reading it and then applying it to law enforcement. So

2224
01:42:24,240 --> 01:42:26,280
Speaker 2: it's the rule of thirds, like what is it? That's

2225
01:42:26,320 --> 01:42:29,360
Speaker 2: the research? So what why is it important? And number

2226
01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:31,600
Speaker 2: three is what's the application? Can I use it and

2227
01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:31,920
Speaker 2: train it?

2228
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:32,640
Speaker 3: Can I use it to.

2229
01:42:32,680 --> 01:42:36,320
Speaker 2: Understand something about investigation? So to me, it's all about

2230
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:39,400
Speaker 2: education and trying to get people smarter about where we're

2231
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:42,519
Speaker 2: looking and what we're doing, and convincing folks to give

2232
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:45,840
Speaker 2: us more time and give us the proper resources to

2233
01:42:45,880 --> 01:42:50,280
Speaker 2: train our trainers so they can train our cops to

2234
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:51,840
Speaker 2: not just go home at night, but to do our

2235
01:42:51,960 --> 01:42:52,880
Speaker 2: jobs more effectively.

2236
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 1: Man, this is going to help a lot of people.

2237
01:42:56,400 --> 01:42:59,640
Speaker 1: And I've got a lot of law enforcement people from

2238
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:02,200
Speaker 1: all around the country that watched and listened to this podcast,

2239
01:43:02,360 --> 01:43:04,800
Speaker 1: and I hope that they're paying attention. And some of

2240
01:43:04,840 --> 01:43:07,360
Speaker 1: this eye tracker stuff that you're doing is genius. God,

2241
01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:10,000
Speaker 1: that's genius, especially being able to put people in the

2242
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:14,880
Speaker 1: shoes of officers in tough situations. Mike, I can't thank

2243
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,160
Speaker 1: you enough for giving me your time. I can't wait

2244
01:43:17,240 --> 01:43:21,080
Speaker 1: to have you back. You're a smart, smart guy. But

2245
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:23,400
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on and we'll talk to you soon,

2246
01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:23,880
Speaker 1: my friend.

2247
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sean.

2248
01:43:25,240 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 2: I appreciate its all my cops out there, stay safe,

2249
01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:29,760
Speaker 2: keep your head up, and I hope I did right

2250
01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:32,080
Speaker 2: by you guys in this session. So take care of

2251
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:34,439
Speaker 2: yourselves out there. Thanks Sean so much. It's been an honor.

2252
01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:36,600
Speaker 2: I'll come back anytime. Let me know, give me a

2253
01:43:36,640 --> 01:43:38,759
Speaker 2: couple of days in advance and I'll flip this camera

2254
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:40,320
Speaker 2: and we'll get chatting tomorrow.

2255
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:41,960
Speaker 1: You got it, brother, all right?

2256
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:43,680
Speaker 3: Thank you? Great, awesome man.

2257
01:43:45,520 --> 01:43:50,599
Speaker 1: Okay, everybody that is it? Mike is I have to say,

2258
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:53,920
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting guests that we've ever had.

2259
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:57,120
Speaker 1: We're definitely going to have him back. I'm definitely going

2260
01:43:57,200 --> 01:43:59,759
Speaker 1: to have him on Battleground Live and the live stream

2261
01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:02,160
Speaker 1: any time there's a police incident. I don't think there's

2262
01:44:02,200 --> 01:44:07,439
Speaker 1: anybody smarter as always. Like subscribe this episode on Rumble.

2263
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:12,200
Speaker 1: We stream exclusively there now since YouTube banned us it.

2264
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 1: Listen to this podcast, share it with your friends. We

2265
01:44:16,360 --> 01:44:19,840
Speaker 1: need your help. Go to official Sean Parnell dot com.

2266
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:23,360
Speaker 1: Get Battleground Apperil. We just launched the Battleground Apparel Company.

2267
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:26,479
Speaker 1: We love it. The motto of the company has never quit,

2268
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:29,799
Speaker 1: never surrendered. It's it is a It is a clothing

2269
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:33,600
Speaker 1: line for American patriots who loved this country. So if

2270
01:44:33,640 --> 01:44:38,240
Speaker 1: you love this country, Battleground Apparel is for you. As always,

2271
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:42,240
Speaker 1: thank you so much for watching this podcast. God bless

2272
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:45,720
Speaker 1: you all, and God bless this amazing country that we

2273
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:46,840
Speaker 1: live in. Take care