1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: Now that I knew my father's secret, I kept it 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 2: from him as he did for me, and. 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: Joined my parents and their subterfus. The heir of secrecy 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: was the oxygen I breathed, and the lies I told 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: in school were fodder for the petty crimes I'd continue 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: to commit. 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 3: That's Gryffin Dunn, actor, producer, director, writer, and author of 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 3: The Friday Afternoon Club, A family memoir. Griffin's is a 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: story about growing up in a storied storytelling family. His 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 3: father was the best selling writer Dominic Dunn. His aunt 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 3: was none other than the great Joan Didion. His uncle 13 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 3: was the writer John Gregory Dunn. It was a family 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 3: that lived at the intersection of Hollywood fame and literary glory. 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 3: A family who has had his share of shiny stardom, 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 3: along with a heavy dose of tragedy, ambition, privilege, ascents, 17 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 3: and falls from grace. It is also, at its core, 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 3: a story about secrets and how they shape us. I'm 19 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 3: Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets. The secrets that 20 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 3: are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 21 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 3: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. This episode was 22 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: recorded in front of a live audience at the Miami 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 3: Book Fair. 24 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 4: Tell me about the landscape of your childhood. 25 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: Well, I was born in New York. My father was 26 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: in live television. He was a stage manager for a 27 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: show called Howdy Duty, and he did felthy things with 28 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: his puppet right before on the air too. And he 29 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: moved his family, my mother and myself later my brother, 30 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles, and we lived in a house in 31 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: Santa Monica and then to Beverly Hills. And my father 32 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: was from childhood enamored with celebrity and movie stars, and 33 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, he's very, very social, and so my childhood 34 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: was very kind of regimented. That was the priority, particularly 35 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: most parents at that time. The priority was to be 36 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: not a parent, but to be in society and giving parties. 37 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: And my father's sort of quest for celebrity. He could 38 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: never believe as a movie fan that all these celebrities 39 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: would come to his house and drink his booze. And 40 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: on certain big parties, my brother, sister and I would 41 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: would be in our bathrobes and my sister would wear 42 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: a little Dickens like nightcap and we would come down 43 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: and bow and my sister would curtsey to the guests 44 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: and they'd all go ooh, that's so cute and then 45 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: send us back upstairs, or if it was a big party, 46 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: we'd be checked into a hotel. So it was like, 47 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, half being a kid and half being part 48 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: of the guests, you know, part of the family. 49 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit about both of your parents, 50 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 3: as close as you can to being a kid, you know, 51 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 3: how did you perceive each of them when you were 52 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 3: at that stage. 53 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 4: In your life. 54 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: Well, I have a quote from my father, who was 55 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: very ended up, a very different man than the child 56 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: I grew up with. And I remember once saying I 57 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: was angry at him about something and he said, what 58 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: can I say, kid, I'm just a work in progress. 59 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: So he was very much a work in progress when 60 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: I was growing up. So my impression at that time 61 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: was my father, who was not terribly athletic, maybe even 62 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: accused of being a touch feminine, who loved movie stars 63 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: and wanted everything to be just so, you know, production 64 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: design wise. As a kid growing up, he was kind 65 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: of an embarrassment. I kind of wanted my friends, my 66 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: best friends, their fathers who were movie stars, you know, 67 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: one was Jack Paletz who almost killed Shane, and the 68 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: other was a guy named Howard Keel who was played Lumberjacks. 69 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: And then there was my dad. So a part of 70 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: me was a little embarrassed about, you know, his masculinity, 71 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: and it was I was such a kid I felt 72 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: identified by it. I remember one day I came to 73 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: school and told everybody my father was arrested for robbing 74 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: a bank, which everyone believed. And my father, you know, 75 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: got a call from the principal, you know, going Nick, oh, 76 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: you're out of jail. You know. My dad said, is 77 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: that something you'd like me to do? Rob a bank? 78 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: And I kind of it? Did you know? We later 79 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: played baseball. We threw a mit around a ball around 80 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: for a baseball game, a father son baseball game. 81 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: Wasn't that a direct outgrowth of absolutely? 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 4: You know, he understood that that. 83 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 3: Was a kind of cry for help in some way. 84 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: And then it became let's throw a baseball around. And 85 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: he didn't have the right glove, and he used your like, 86 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: was he a lefty or you're a lefty? 87 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: He was a righty. I was a lefty, and so 88 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: he was. When we were practicing, I had an extra Mi. 89 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: He would wear it on his other hand and I 90 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: would throw him the ball and it would just hit 91 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: the mitt and then pull up to the ground. You know, 92 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: our family dog was so embarrassed that he took the 93 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: dog to the ball away from us. But I put 94 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: him in right field. He was the last one chosen 95 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: of the fathers, and I put him in right field 96 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: because it was very rare that a lefty would would 97 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: be at bat. And my worst nightmare came true, which 98 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: there was a lefty. It was Jack Palant, by the way, 99 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: and it went right toward him and he wasn't paying attention. 100 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: He was like talking to Natalie Wood and eating a 101 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: hot dog and it went sailing over his head and 102 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: it was such an embarrassment to me. But you know, 103 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: he walked back after finally we got up a bat 104 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: and he said, sorry, kid, I know I fucked that up. 105 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: And it made me want to just hug him. And 106 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: I was looking for my friends. I was ready to 107 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: punch their face if they said anything because he was 108 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: just so disarming. You know, it just really touched me. 109 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 3: It's such a complicated stew of things, right to on 110 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 3: the one hand, see your father and in some way 111 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 3: have a sense of embarrassment because you're a kid, and 112 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 3: what kids want, kids want to be like other kids. Yeah, 113 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 3: and also to know that there's something so real and 114 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: genuine about him. He was owning who he was and 115 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 3: kind of saying, you know, sorry. 116 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: This is what she got, it's what you got. 117 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 3: As Griffin grows up, he spends more and more stories 118 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 3: the lie about his dad robbing a bank. That was 119 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: just the beginning. 120 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: I became a real fiber, a real kind of liar. 121 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: And my parents we went to church, a Catholic church 122 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: in Beverly Hills. We called our Lady of the Cadillacs 123 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: because of the extravagant cars that were in the parking lot. 124 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: And one day I just decided, I'm not going to 125 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: go to church. I don't want to do it. And 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: my dad is going, come on, get in the car, 127 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: get in the car, and I went, I'm not going. 128 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what possessed me to say I'm not going. 129 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: And during this time I had a real, i no delusional, 130 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: relationship with the President John Kennedy, and I used to 131 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: write him letters and once I heard back from his secretary, 132 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: Missus Lincoln. Her name was and I used to think 133 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: about them time. Anyway, I said, I'm not going to 134 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: church and dang mine help fuck it. 135 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: It. 136 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: Gets in the car with my brother and sister. And 137 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: then when they drive back, my brother and sister comes 138 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: screaming into the living room. We just met the Kennedys. 139 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: We sat next to the Kennedys and we met them. 140 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: I thought, Wow, God must be really pissed and how 141 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,119 Speaker 1: could he do that. I was bereft and I could 142 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: not I couldn't live with the fact that my brother 143 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: and sister met the Kennedys and I didn't. So I 144 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: went to school the next day and I told everybody 145 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: I met the Kennedy's and uh, you know, it was 146 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: old stage thing. I would like tap them, mister President, 147 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: I'm Griffin Dunn. And he turns to jack and goes, 148 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: oh my god, Jackie, this is a little boy who 149 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: wrote that letter. And I started to tell this over 150 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: and over. And I'm in the middle of, you know, 151 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: starting school the neighborhood playoffs with all my new actor friends, 152 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: and I'm starting to tell this story and I and 153 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: he turned to Jackie, you go, and I go, wait, 154 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: I didn't meet the Kennedys. I'm making all this up. 155 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: I don't know why I never met. And I'd start 156 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: to have like a breakdown about it. He goes, Okay, 157 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: nobody's saying you did. And I called my brother and 158 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: I said, you know, I almost told this story again. 159 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: I've been, you know, feasting off your experience and lying that. 160 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: He goes, what are you talking about? At that time? 161 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: You guys all met the Kennedys, and I never did. 162 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, we didn't meet the Kennedys. Dad told 163 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: us to say we met the Kennedys. So I've been 164 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: telling a lie on top of a lie, you know, 165 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: for eighteen years or. 166 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: So, a lie on top of a lie. And what 167 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: do lies do? Really? They shift both our inward and 168 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: outward narratives. When we lie, after all, we're keeping a 169 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 3: kind of secret. We know we're lying, and even if 170 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 3: we're doing it really, really well, even if, as in 171 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: Griffin's case, we're an excellent actor, still we're aware on 172 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 3: some level that we're bringing other people into our own fabrication, 173 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 3: and that knowing is a very lonely place to be. 174 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 3: Griffin's childhood was lived in a house that pulsed with secrets, 175 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 3: and as children. Our lived experience is all we know 176 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 3: of the world. 177 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: As we were growing up, we had this, you know, 178 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: we were presenting one image. It was sort of based 179 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: on the Kennedy family, you know, this winning family of 180 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: two boys and a little girl and a young, handsome 181 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: couple and just with great social grace, and that this 182 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: loving couple was a loving couple was the first sort 183 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: of secret that you don't feel as a kid, but 184 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, and you don't know that your father has 185 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: actually got a sort of see secret life, that he's 186 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: closeted men who had to keep this a secret, particularly 187 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: at this time in his standing in the industry and socially, 188 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: to be you know, exposed or out of the closet 189 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: would have been a terrible verdict with terrible consequences, and 190 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: especially growing up as a little boy and knowing that 191 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: you know that your preference is not heterosexual, and so 192 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: he had that shame. But you know, you don't know 193 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: you're thinking feeling shame. There's just something in the air. 194 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: There's an atmosphere that you kind of grieve, and you know, 195 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: my mother. The other thing we didn't know was that 196 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: my mother was terribly ill. She was getting sicker, and sicker, 197 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: and she eventually was diagnosed with MS as having MS. 198 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: But she took that pain and also the unhappiness of 199 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: her marriage, and probably the knowing and keeping the secret 200 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: of my father to herself, not even talking to him 201 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: about it. So it makes a a a rather thick 202 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: atmosphere that you know, you kind of grow up and 203 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: it results in you know, in my case, led to 204 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: me lying, telling these FIBs. I know the Kennedys, I 205 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: got a lion, I have a baby lion at home. 206 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: I you know, I mean, just crap and just fall 207 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: out of my mouth. 208 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 209 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 3: When Griffin is eleven, he becomes a self described discipline 210 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: problem and is sent off to an all boys boarding 211 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: school in Massachusetts. This was very unusual in his family's 212 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: milieu to send a kid to boarding school at that 213 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 3: age on the other side of the country, and the 214 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: school was strict, really strict. It was there that Griffin 215 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 3: prof not only his lying, but his stealing as well. 216 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: I could look at someone in the eye and I 217 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: could just tell a total untruth and my pulse would 218 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: never rise. I'd have the pulse of a serial killer. 219 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: And all of that was I could trace to the 220 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: untruths in the I don't know the facade that I 221 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: was growing up with. 222 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: And at the same time, there was this moral center, 223 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: you know, at the core of the serial killer facade. 224 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: I did have a sense of morality and empathy. I 225 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: always had that, even though I didn't know quite about 226 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: like my dad's secrets, I kind of suspected it, so 227 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: I always had real sympathy and love for him. I 228 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: related to that much more than the social gadfly. That 229 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: was something real. And I then went to another school, 230 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: all boys, God forbid. I went to school with girls, 231 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: and I was That's when I found acting. And I 232 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: was playing at Yago in Othello, and the night before 233 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: I was to do the performance, my best friend, who 234 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: was I gravitated toward acting. He gravitated toward drugs, and 235 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: he came in. He went, man, we don't get high 236 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: anymore and you're just a joe actor, And he gilded 237 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: me into taking a hit a pot and teacher comes in. 238 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: I smell smoke and I go no, and this plume 239 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: comes out and it was immediate expulsion. And I was 240 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: taking to the headmaster that very night, to his home 241 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: and he wants to cut a deal. I mean, he 242 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: looks at me as like a fundraising tool of the future, 243 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: and he said, if you rat out John my friend, 244 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: you can do iago and just say he was the 245 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: only one smoking. And I don't know. I couldn't do it. 246 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it, and I got kicked out of school. 247 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: And that was the last I ever set foot in 248 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: the school again. You know, it was in the tenth grade. 249 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: It would have been eleventh, but I was held back 250 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: because I was dyslexic. So you know, I went and 251 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: into the adult world feeling very uneducated, which led to 252 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: another fib that I went to college, which I never did. 253 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: But I did catch up on my reading somehow. Being dyslexic, 254 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: I was told, you're kind of a dummy, and we 255 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: feel sorry for you. But once I got out of school, 256 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: I didn't have that pressure. So I had to catch 257 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: up with my own lie and read the books I 258 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: would have read, and then I became a voracious reader. 259 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 3: Literature is perhaps the only art form that can offer 260 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 3: us direct access to inner lives other than our own. 261 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: We approach books as maps of sorts, guideposts to help 262 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 3: us navigate how we live inhabit a world of imaginative 263 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 3: empathy and understand how others live. So it makes a 264 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 3: lot of sense, especially that those of us who have 265 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: grown up with family secrets are drawn to reading. Read 266 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 3: to feel less alone, to peer into the windows of 267 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: other people's homes, to see what we recognize and what 268 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 3: we don't. Griffin is nearly twenty when he moved to 269 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: New York to start his career. He's waiting tables, going 270 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 3: to acting school and auditioning. Sounds like a fairly typical experience, 271 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 3: but there's more to it. His parents are now divorced, 272 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: and Griffin isn't only getting to know himself during this time, 273 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 3: he's getting to know his dad too. 274 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: When I first moved, he'd actually gone into self exile. 275 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: He'd lost all of his money, he'd sold all of 276 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: his belongings in a garage sale, and all the people 277 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: that he invited to his home and they all haggled 278 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: with him over ashtrays and end irons and stuff, and 279 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: he left quite humiliated. So when I was in New 280 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: York beginning my career, he had driven up the coast 281 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: of California into Oregon and lived in a cabin right 282 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: in front where his car broke down, and he lived 283 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: there and then really grew character. He was at that 284 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: point in his life and I was just beginning my 285 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: life as an actor. But it was also, you know, 286 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: an incredible I wanted to live in New York. From 287 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: the moment I first laid Iceland, I knew. I just 288 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: was counting the days, and I created a narrative of 289 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: really kind of a magical New York. You know, I 290 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: wasn't getting acting work, but I worked at Radio City 291 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: Music Hall, feeding in the popcorn concession are and I 292 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: had a little paper hat and one of my jobs 293 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: was to refill the popcorn and the Nativity scene. They 294 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: had a zoo downstairs, and I would feed the camel's 295 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: popcorn and wander around to the catacombs and Rockefeller Center. 296 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: And my roommate at the time was my best friend, 297 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: Carrie Fisher, who eventually said, I got this part in 298 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: a movie that's really stupid, and so I got to 299 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: go to England. And so she's like working and I'm 300 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: as an actress and I'm working as a waiter and 301 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: a popcorn concessionaire. So it was kind of great, and 302 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: she was, you know, in a Broadway show before in 303 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: the chorus, and I would go around backstage and I 304 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: knew all the stage hands and see them throwing snow 305 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: for the you know, the dancing scenes of the debut, 306 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: Reynolds dancing under a snow. So it was all, you know, 307 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: it's just the New York I wanted, you. 308 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 3: Know, Griffin, it's striking me that it's so much about 309 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 3: what things look like and what things really are. I mean, 310 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 3: there are all of these layers to that where I mean, 311 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: when you were living with Carrie Fisher in the Day's 312 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 3: Artists Building and you would go to the restaurant in 313 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 3: the Cafe Days Artists Building on West sixty seventh Street 314 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: in New York City, the very expensive, very expensive restaurant, 315 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: the may Treads thought that you were, you know, I 316 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 3: don't know, a viscount or a lord, and and you 317 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 3: know treated you as such and you didn't dissuade him. 318 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 3: There's constantly these things that are kind of turning on 319 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 3: their head. So tell me, like what was your relationship 320 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 3: with your father like during those years, and when did 321 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: you actually come to know, you know, sort of the 322 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 3: truth of his sexuality and which you kind of always 323 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: knew all along, but didn't know. Again, this being kind 324 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 3: of about the secrets we. 325 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: Keep from our sh sure well, growing as an individual, 326 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, and finding out who you are. And I 327 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,239 Speaker 1: always hope to find that, but never have to go 328 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: through the journey of finding myself that my father did. 329 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: I've never seen such public humiliation. And he really he 330 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: took that pain and that humiliation and his secrets and 331 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: he learned from it. And he lived in this cabin 332 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: and he wanted to be a writer and expressed itself 333 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: in these single space letters, just pages and pages that 334 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: were confessional and him really getting at the root of 335 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: who he was and how he got to this point 336 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: in his life. And he was also it was a 337 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: workshop for finding his voice, a voice that he would 338 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: eventually find as a very well known writer. So here 339 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: I was really getting to know him now. He never talked. 340 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: We'd never once had a discussion about being closeted or not. 341 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: I didn't feel the need to have that conversation. I 342 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: think he always assumed his sons knew. I know my 343 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: sister knew because when my dad was having this garage sale, 344 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 1: the lowest point in his life, my sister, who was 345 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: starting out as an actress, and immediately started working and 346 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: was making more money than him by far. Out of 347 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: the gate. She brought her her friend who was older 348 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: than her but younger than my father, a guy named Norman, 349 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: and he helped, you know, so Dad wouldn't have to 350 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: touch the money and everything. He tagged everything with Dominique 351 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: and did all the bartering for him. My sister, who 352 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: was one to really knew how to keep a secret, 353 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: she saw what was going on, and I never knew 354 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: anything about it. 355 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: On November fourth of nineteen eighty two, Griffin's sister, Dominique, 356 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: age twenty two, was brutally murdered. She was a beautiful, 357 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: talented young actress at the start of what was going 358 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 3: to be an exceptional life, and she died at the 359 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 3: hands literally of her ex boyfriend. This tragedy struck at 360 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 3: the very heart of the Dunn family, who attended the 361 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 3: media circus of the trial every day. Nick took notes 362 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 3: at the trial. His rage and grief funneled into Pristine's 363 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 3: sentences and razor sharp observations that later became a piece 364 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 3: for Vanity Fair. At the trial, Griffin was struck by 365 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 3: a peculiar distance Nick seemed to be keeping from Norman. 366 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 3: It would be years before he would find out why. 367 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: Norman was a witness at the trial of Dominique's murder 368 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: for the murderer, and that's the next time I saw him. 369 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: And then as my father has cancer, he's at an 370 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: experimental stem cell treatment place in Germany, and I fly 371 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: there to be with him, and I knock on his door. 372 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: When I arrived, I'm in the room next door, and 373 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: the door opens and there is Norman, the guy from 374 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: the trial, and my dad, who's quite ill, goes, you 375 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: remember Norman from the trial. Well, they'd been lovers for 376 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: over forty years. My dad was very weak, he was 377 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: very pale. He was in and out of sleep, and 378 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,959 Speaker 1: Norman and I sat ordered a bottle of wine and 379 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: we talked. We brought me right up to speed from 380 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: the time they first met, and that Dominique was the 381 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: only one who knew and she thought she was tickled 382 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: pink that she set this relationship. But she never told us, 383 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: She never told her brothers, she never told anyone. So 384 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: that's how I found out. 385 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 3: It's such an amazing story, and I think, like some 386 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,239 Speaker 3: of the work of becoming an adult, you know, that 387 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: is an ongoing work in progress is coming to know 388 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 3: our parents as people, you know, people that aren't our parents, 389 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: people who had lives before us, and you know, during 390 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 3: our lives that aren't just about about us. 391 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 4: And it was so striking and so moving. 392 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 3: And you're thinking back to Dominique's trial and your father 393 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 3: kept his distance from Norman in this very you know 394 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 3: in a way that you noticed and then understanding those 395 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 3: years later that he must have been absolutely terrified that 396 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 3: their relationship was going to come out on cross examination 397 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 3: of Norman. And you describe it as the longest day 398 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 3: of his life. 399 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: Which I was not aware of. I didn't know, of 400 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: course at this time, that my father and Norman knew 401 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: each other and kept in touch. But Norman was the 402 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: very first person on the when my sister was attacked, 403 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: when Dominique was attacked the first time by the same 404 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: man whould eventually killed her. He tried to strangle her. 405 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: He did strangle her, but she escaped and had scars 406 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: on her throat and rushed to Norman's house, who had 407 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: the wherewithal to take pictures which were used in the trial. 408 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: And then Norman was called as a witness to recount 409 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: that night and every day in this courtroom was a 410 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: was criminal to the way our family was treated by 411 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: the judge, by the defense attorney. We could not get 412 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: a break. It was relentless and our only day of 413 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: a victory, a small one that it was. Was Norman's testimony, 414 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: how his composure he kept under this hostile little defense attorney, 415 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: never losing his composure. And and at one point he 416 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: was pointing at the blow ups with the pictures of 417 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: Dominique's throat in her face, and at one point she's smiling, Well, 418 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: how do you explain if this is so serious, why 419 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: is she laughing? And he said, well, Dominique is an actress. 420 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: And the next day she was playing the part of 421 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: a battered housewife and she said, well, at least I 422 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: won't have to go into makeup. It was real victory 423 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: for us that day. But my father was oddly distant. 424 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: He didn't come to the lunch we all went every 425 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: day where we just you know, hugged Norman and thank Norman. 426 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: And I didn't find out till years later when I 427 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: started to write the book, and I was I got 428 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: to the part about, you know, covering the trial, that 429 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: I went to the Brisco Center in Austin, where my 430 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: father's papers were kept, and I found out, you know, 431 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: in his diary, an entry I'd never seen that He 432 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: was terrified that day that this defense attorney was going 433 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: to out him as a man who would date have 434 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: an affair with his daughter's best friend and make that 435 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: a meal and persperge his character. And that he wrote, 436 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: if I have done anything that will affect the outcome 437 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: of this trial in the favor of the killer, I'm 438 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:33,239 Speaker 1: going to kill myself. And I never knew. I just 439 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: never knew, you know, the pain, Wow, horrible that day 440 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: must have been for him. I never knew that, but 441 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: it made sense. 442 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 3: Before Nick passes, he has one more reveal for his son. 443 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 3: He tells him that he had fought in the war 444 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 3: and says it was just not something he ever felt 445 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 3: he needed to share or say. Griffin is floored to 446 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: learn that his dad was indeed braver than Jack Palance 447 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 3: and all the actors playing war heroes, that he was 448 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 3: a war hero, the real deal. 449 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: It just says so much to his character. You know, 450 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: at that time, he was in the mid nineties, By 451 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: that time, he was famous. He always wanted to be famous, 452 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: and here he was famous. And you know, he loved 453 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: He was a joy to see enjoying his success. And 454 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, he would recount a cab driver who recognized him. 455 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: Or one time he was at the chateau and he's 456 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: taking an elevator. He calls and leaves a voicemail. I 457 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: took the elevator up with Bono. Bono knows who I am, 458 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: and it was just a delight. So we would always 459 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: tell you everything, or I got to get another reward. 460 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: But one day he saw saving Private Ryan and he 461 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: calls me up and he says, get over here, get 462 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: over here. Now, I got to talk to you. And 463 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: I thought I had to do with the recent cancer diagnosis, 464 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: and so I rushed over and he said, you ever 465 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: see Private Ryan. I went, yeah, I did. He goes, 466 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: you know I fought in the war, and I realized, 467 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm kind of a history buff. I never 468 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: really thought about him, even in a uniform, let alone 469 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: on the way. I just never thought about it. And 470 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: he goes on to tell me about this night that 471 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: he and another person in his platoon whose masculinity was 472 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: also in question, and they were humiliated and mocked in 473 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: their group. They were called the gold Dust twins, and 474 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: he tells about a knight in the Arden Forest during 475 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: the Battle of the Bulch where his platoon retreats under 476 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: fire and they both see two wounded American soldiers, not 477 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: even from their platoon, behind enemy lines and counts this 478 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: incredible night and how scared he was, but how brave 479 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 1: he was. And then he takes out this metal and 480 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: he goes, you know, your old man won the bronze Star. 481 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: That was another moment. And what it struck me is 482 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: it's like, that's character. That's the real shit that he 483 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: kept to himself. 484 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 5: That he didn't need to brag, he didn't need to named, 485 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 5: he didn't need because that that fucking happened, and he 486 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 5: wanted me to know. And like many veterans of that time, 487 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 5: like many veterans of ward, it'll take a certain thing 488 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 5: that to loosen it up, this memory, and it was 489 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 5: in this case it was private Ryan, but it was 490 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 5: also just something that was real that he kept to himself. 491 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 3: There are secrets we keep, the ones that shape us 492 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 3: and those who love us. But then there's also a 493 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: kind of quiet, knowing a moral rectitude, one that bides 494 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 3: its time. Can we ever know another human being? No? 495 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 3: Matter how close to us a parent, a lover, a child. 496 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: We can valiantly try, we can let people in, open 497 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 3: ourselves to others, but ultimately our inner worlds are like 498 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: those nested Russian dolls that are nestled one inside the 499 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 3: next until we get to the tiniest one, hard as 500 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 3: a kernel, a piece of bedrock, truth, a gift. Here's 501 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 3: Griffin reading one last passage from his marvelous memoir. 502 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: Dad took inventory of the ongoing disrepair in his ex house. 503 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 2: The green satin sofa they bought New York as newlyweds 504 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: was stained with red wine, and the white drapes hid 505 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 2: Bosey's dried turs and smelled of cat piss. And the 506 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: painted flats of the English gardens, left over from the 507 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: Black and White Ball, still hung in our picture window, 508 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: their colors long since washed out by the sun. He 509 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: looked as sad as a bankrupt earl watching tourists parade 510 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: through this castle. Clinging to small talk, he asked me 511 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: how school had been, and I considered telling him how 512 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: I had been flogged and fondled, but didn't have the 513 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: heart in Dunn family tradition. I kept it pleasant and 514 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: my Secrets. 515 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: Close Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Accur 516 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 3: is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 517 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 3: If you have a family seat you'd like to share, 518 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 3: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 519 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 3: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 520 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 3: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 521 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 3: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 522 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 523 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 3: check out my memoir Inheritance. 524 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 525 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.