WEBVTT - Reparations in the Food World 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.920 Hi, I'm Tom Collikio, and this is Citizen Chef. On 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.359 this podcast, we're looking at policy and ships in society 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.360 through the food system. This season, we're going over the 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.360 basics of the food system and how food policy affects 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:17.120 our daily lives. So far, we've talked to experts on immigration, slavery, 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.960 on the high seas, and food assistance programs. In this episode, 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.200 we're talking about an almost hundred and fifty year old idea, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:33.040 and that's reparations. I'm Italian American. My grandfather came here 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.880 in nineteen o three when he was three years old. 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.760 My grand my great grandmother father brought him over and 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:40.920 my great grandfather went back and forth and made a 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.960 few trips while he was actually building a house um 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:46.680 back in the Lazza, Italy, where where my family is from, 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.560 my father's family is from. And now now I gotta 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.880 I think if if my ancestors were forced to come 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:59.160 to this country an enslaved, and when they were freed, 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.160 they were must forty acres of fertile soil somewhere, and 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.120 I knew that that going back in my life, in 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.920 my family, we would have been able to build some 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.840 sort of wealth based on these forty acres. If it 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.440 stayed in my family for a couple of generations, this 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.800 would have been how my family built wealth. And if 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.280 that were the case and it were stripped away from 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.640 them after four dred years of slavery, Jim Crow laws, 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.839 and redlining in other forms of discrimination, you better believe 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:29.840 I would take this personally, and you better believe this 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.080 is something that my family would live with, and this 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.560 is something that my family would think that possibly we 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.800 should we should get something from the government. We talked 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:44.360 about reparations. I think too often people think it's just 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.959 a pay out, but but what it really is is 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:51.960 repairing a relationship. And that's the relationship between African Americans 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.040 who were cheated out of land that was promised to them. 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.040 How do you how do you repair that that relationship? 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.640 How do you you know, men, those wounds that that's 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.040 that's what we're talking about here. How do you repair relationship? 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:05.240 You know? How do you make things right after years 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.480 centuries of getting them wrong? And what does a true 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.560 apology look like? So so, why why are we talking 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:16.080 reparations on on our food podcast? For a lot of reasons, 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.600 And I think we have a confluence of of three 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.840 different things happening. Obviously with the death of George Floyd 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.480 and the and the protests that we're seeing in the 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.000 Black Lives Matter movement really sort of you know, being 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.680 front and center in our news cycle. And then in 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.960 my opinion, a part of where we're gonna end up 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.560 with the movement is looking at reparations. So reparation is 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:41.120 becoming also prevalent in our news cycle, um, and I 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.920 believe in election it's going to play a pretty important 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.400 role as well. However, because the effects of racist systems 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.840 can be found in every crevice of American life, we 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.359 have to find where reparations are required in our corner 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.600 of the world. Well, my corner of the world is food. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.680 So today we'll be talking about what chefs and the 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.120 food industry a black Americans. And because we are talking 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.960 about land, and because we're mostly talking about farmland, and 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:12.480 because our podcast has to do with food and food sovereignty, 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:17.480 well this this kind of runs headlong into our conversations 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.920 around food and around current topics. We're gonna jump right 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.760 in here. I had a conversation with chef and historian 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:29.200 Michael Twitter, and here we go. We we had planned 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.320 on doing an episode on reparations, uh, going back when 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.400 we first you know, started conceiving of the podcast. Um, 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.040 and obviously it takes a very different meaning right now, 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.520 I imagine. And that's why that's why I say I'm 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:47.160 nervous having this conversation is because um, so often, uh, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.400 you know, white people like me get it wrong. I'm 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.160 not asking from a position of hey, I need help 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.760 help me as a white person understand this, but there's 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.640 so much we don't understand. And when reading through your 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:02.120 book and reading through your blog, um, man, I can't 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.640 walk a mile in your shoes. I can't walk in 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.360 your steps because there's there's too much history there, there's 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.280 too much pain there. But I can walk alongside you 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.840 and say, hey, I'm here to do whatever the hell 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.680 I can to to to to to to make things 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.320 better and to be an ally. But man, this is 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.680 it's really fraud. Um. But listen, let's just jump in, 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.560 because why the hell not? So I do want to 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.680 start by by asking a question, and it's actually a 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.680 couple of lines from your from your book, um, and 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.440 it says I think it's in the intro and says 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.599 I began to wonder if I ever really would be 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.680 able to locate myself in human experience? What good is 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.039 it to learn the flow of human history and to 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.240 speak of the dead if their stories don't speak to you? 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.719 What if food history and facts figures and flashpoints? What 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.400 good is your own position as a culinary historian if 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.839 you can't find yourself in the narrative of your food story, 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.159 and if you don't know who you are? So, Michael, 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.839 in your in your journey, Um, who who did you 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.960 find out? Who? Who are you? Who? What is your 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.520 role here? What is as a historian, as a as 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.599 a as a chef, as a as a cook, as 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.200 a someone who writes about food in a way where 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.960 you cannot help but want to cook with you alongside 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.480 you taste the food that you're cooking, and and and 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.279 understand your experience. So so who who are you? Um? 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:25.200 You know there was the the ah pooh, May he 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.520 rest in peace and power, um one said on The 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.840 Simpsons In response to Homer, Um pooh, how are you? 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.520 He says, I haven't slept. I was kept up by 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:42.880 the house of my ancestors. That's that's that's my life, um. 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.640 But it's also the new connection with other people. Um. 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.200 I think I joked with you when we met that 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.520 you know, I'm like one percent Italian and I and 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.720 I figured out how that was. One of my family's 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:02.320 uh wife folks was part Italian and part English. And um, 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:06.120 that kind of like global feeling that you get once 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.520 you do the whole DNA thing and discover those things 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:12.200 in your family tree. Really it's more than just a 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.120 percentage of the paper, you know that. And understanding that 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.839 I am as an African American, I am valid and 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:24.440 affirmed as I am. I think that I Um, I'm 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.840 very proud to be of African descent, and I'm very 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.080 I'm uplifted by the trips that I've made to West 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:35.039 Africa at this point of made um seven journeys and 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.600 eight countries. Um. But I guess the point is is 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.839 that I didn't realize that we you know, we we 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.160 get we get talked about. Really, you know, every time 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.520 something happens with us, someone has some smart ship to say, 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.719 so he's my friend. Somebody has something nasty to say 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.400 it's a qualifier, and I'm like, you know what, No, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:01.640 we're we're an exceptional people and we're very proud people 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.520 among the many black people of the Black Atlantic UM. 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:07.760 And I guess you know, when I started out, the 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.680 reason why I said that quote in the book was 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.080 because I was in a field that was mostly white women, 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:19.400 white women of some privileged wealth and capital. Um. One 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.840 of the females. Definitely, every time I walk in the room, 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.960 I'm the raising and the coogle. You know, I'm just 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:31.120 not I'm just not in the majority. And then you know, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.840 they would write about these people in history in a 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.640 sort of titillating fun way and never really placed himself. 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.520 And I said, that must be liberating to be able 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.320 to write about something and cook something and live something 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.880 and not wonder why am I here? Why am I 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.640 in this space doing what I'm doing? And then of 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.240 course there was this constant theme of the black cook 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.480 and the black cook during slavery. I've always been fascinated 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.800 by that. My ancestors from that time period are really 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.760 in me and my African It's really calling to me 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.880 because I guess I felt like, no, I didn't feel 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:09.520 like I knew they were being forgotten, nameless, you know, 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:14.400 slapped on boxes, um, given these monikers, and then they 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.680 were gonna fade away. And then you know, in a 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:23.040 space between white guilt and black trauma, you know, and 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:24.920 that's just what it is. So I started to decide 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.560 I'm gonna document this stuff. I'm gonna go through it. 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.720 At first it was like paper plates and plastics, booze 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.000 and stuff from the grocery store. And then it was like, no, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.040 you can't even be rolling like that. You gotta you 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.319 really gotta really do the historical interpreter thing. And then 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.040 a couple of years ago, I was just like, Okay, 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.080 you can't just talk about the food and a sort 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.520 of like everybody else who you're talking about. You have 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.400 to you have to do it. You have to translate 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.680 what the folk culture into a language that culinary people 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:58.000 can understand so that they can really grasp what you're 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.040 trying to pass on. Otherwise they're not gonna get it. 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:02.520 And they can they can perceive, you know what I'm saying. 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.800 It could perceive it, but it's not the same language. Yeah, 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.120 everybody wants to tell their stories through food and they 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.640 have to communicate. And because that's that, that's the story 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:12.920 that people want to hear. They don't want to know 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.280 about a pretty a pretty plate of food. They want 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.000 to know the history behind it. They want to understand 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:18.960 why you're doing what you do, why you're cooking what 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.800 you're cooking, and so so yeah, trying to understand the 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.120 food that you you grew up cooking beside your your 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.880 grandmother and your mother, um, and then taking a deeper 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.240 dive into why those I mean, the story in your 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.560 book of of Homecoming, I thought, I thought that was, 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.560 you know, this idea of abundance and this food that 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.960 you're going to enjoy it it's your food, and it's 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.080 it's it's food that you dream of and it's it's 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:51.079 food that that means so much, UM, and just the 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.120 idea where you're going there and you're with your people 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:55.880 and you're having the time of your life and it's 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.880 all about food. And you know, I tell those stories 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:01.960 when I when I about growing up Italian and how 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.520 I've realized at a certain point that that's not necessarily 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.280 what's on the plate, but it brings people together, right. 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.520 And then once you're together, then you have those discussions 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.679 and whether you're talking politics or whether you're gossip. You 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.520 know this family gossip there you know, going back and 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.200 forth and and so you know, this is what it does. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.360 And so you know, having that is is you know, 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.320 it is part of history, it is part of who 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.640 you are. So how what what made you start sort 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.280 of taking that deeper dive to to go to Africa 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:36.080 to really sort of finding um, the the I always say, 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.240 you know, when I went to Europe to learn how 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.280 to you know, cook out the French food or Italian food. Uh, 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.920 you know what I learned there was why not so 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.800 much what but why why you cook? Why certain things 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:48.920 are what they are? What? What did you what did 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.400 you find on those trips? I guess I guess my 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.120 word to be who who? I like it? You know who? 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.560 I was like, um, so yeah, you get there and 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.200 you see the staples and you go, I knew this 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.920 was coming, but it's nice to know with my own 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.120 two eyes and my mouth and my hands, it's all there. 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.280 But what I didn't know was how many things had 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.880 to be passed down and almost like in secret, Um, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:23.480 the most momentous moment for me was tasting on my hand. Okay, 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.000 so like like I'm a I'm a I'm a dude. 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.600 So there I'm not the I'm not the cook women 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.920 and the cooks unless you roast une barbecue meat roast meat. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.800 It's all the women thinks. So I'm going in and 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:40.560 these women are looking at me like weird, like why 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.760 is he even in our space? And so I took 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.600 the spoon and then I took the sauce or whatever, 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.880 and I put it on my hands and I licked 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.439 it off, and they all sort of getting very agitated 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.160 and very excited, and like hey, they started patting me 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.000 on the back and and hugging me and gissing me 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:00.959 on the cheek, and I'm like, what did I do? 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.000 I just thought there was taste of food though, And 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:05.719 then I said it and I started coming out of 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.840 my mouth, said the way my grandmother and the mother 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:14.560 taught me. And then I realized they were excited because 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:18.760 they realized that I had been taught the proper way 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.120 of generation to generation to generations. So you know, they're 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:24.520 like Africa. You look, you look your hand and looking 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.720 back your hand, and that was they were like, Okay, 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.800 he's not a black European from America. That's how they 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.320 think of us until proven otherwise. And then I was like, 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.000 oh my god, yeah, he's one of us. He's one 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.280 of us, one of us. He knows what's up um. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.439 And that's that's then so they answered is who are they? 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.480 And who am i? Who am i? And then's this 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.880 you know, it's sort of technique culture of food. It's 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:54.400 more like it's more like, um, the circumstances and when 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.800 you eat the food, the season you eat the food, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:02.800 the spiritual occasion, um. The feeling, the feeling around the 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:07.080 food is more important the process of making it. And 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.160 so that energy that you put into it, that soul 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.080 that you put into it, is a key ingredient. This 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.800 the the area. You know. You know, someone who is 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:23.400 a peaceable person doesn't grow your peppers in Africa. M 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.520 someone who is like from birth aligned with you know, 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:32.079 the deities that control war and blood and anger, that's 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.120 the one who should grow the peppers. You know. That's 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.040 that's It's like everything is congenital, everything is you know, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.640 and also from heaven and so there's that and it's 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.959 just like, um, there's the rhythm and it kinesthetics like 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.520 food is. You know, your body goes into it. So 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.760 we joke around and saying in in Southern talk, someone 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.839 put their foot in it. M hm, Well that ship 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.120 is literal in Africa because when you make the locals 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.720 being paced there like it's like it's like in Italy, 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.720 you know, the stopping of the grapes, likeing ting tinging, 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.960 And so so I listened, So I started so I 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.520 stopped looking for techniques and I started listening for the 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.600 sound of it, the feeling in the body, the feeling 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.560 in the room, and and and that really got to me. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:19.640 That made me understand why I didn't. I didn't always attach. 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:22.600 There's the color of the food and the color of 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.640 the ingredients and and just all of that, all that 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:30.120 mattered so much more than the process. Although that's definitely there. 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.360 It's very deep, and it's there, and there's things you 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.000 gotta know. But I guess for me, another part for 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:41.080 me was just like I was, I was seeing things 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.600 in reality that I had read about in books from 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.800 two to three years ago. And the fact that people 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.880 preferred to eat food cooked over the wood fire with 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.520 the with the three rocks. That's there's no such thing 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.760 as let's you know, modernizes food. It's almost like you 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.080 have to eat the food that was eaten at the 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.800 time our antestors left the continent got it. So how 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.960 did that change you as a cook? Oh? You know 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.320 what I said, I'll tell people all the time that 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:15.840 to be black American, the African American and go to 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.680 Africa is to suddenly drop all the awkwardness that she 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.360 felt about being black in America because it because it's 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:30.360 because it's you. The loudness, the spiciness, the greasiness, the fat, 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.840 frying and air, I mean, all that stuff, all the 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.080 all the it's queerness. Okay, I'm a I'm a queer 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.400 person because I'm because I'm gay. But I'm also a 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:43.160 queer person because in relationship to normative whiteness, being black 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.760 is queer in America, like being Italian was queer. It was, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.440 and sometimes there is queer in America, you know, And 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.320 I want to specify that for everybody. Queer in no 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.400 sense means not normative and relationship to power. So when 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.600 you grow up here black, you feel out of Sometimes 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.760 you you're made to feel out of your skin. Doesn't 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:10.160 matter how much America appropriates blackness or uses blackness, black bodies, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:15.000 black labor, black and black entertainment for whatever, you're still 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.480 you're still an outside. You're still an other. And so 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.560 you made me feel like you never quite fit, quite 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:25.400 fit in, but over there nine in the time, especially 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.560 with the food culture, you feel as a Black American 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:33.920 that you don't feel awkward anymore. You feel natural. I 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.240 can hear the assholes already saying we'll go back. I 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.920 can hear I can hear it. I gotta answer for him. 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.720 I gotta answer for him. Most of them that say 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:49.120 that they're already pardon Negro, they've already they've already incorporated blackness, africanness, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.400 and coloredness and all of all of our all of 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.000 our stuff into their life already, so they can go 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.280 back with me. You know. That's what that was with 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.320 Dick Gregory said that he's He said, you haven't met 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.680 a drug white supremacist, and then he said I have. 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.399 He said, go back to Africa and take me with you. 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.240 So there you go. Yeah. So so you you come 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.800 back and you decide that the best place to to 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:21.560 to to apply your craft is on plantations. Yeah, could 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.240 take me, take me through that process. Okay, So I 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.400 had already, I had already been doing that kind of work. 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.360 But the problem was, I never forget when I first started. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.879 Someone who I will not name said to me um 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.920 At a museum food person said to me, well, I 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:44.479 don't know anything about Africa. I said, We're in the South. 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.720 You are right down the road from where slave ships 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.400 actually came into North America. How could you not know this? 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.080 And I just took a deep breath and said, stop, 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.919 don't get mad, just do the work. Just do the 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.200 am work. And so I started with documenting every single 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:08.280 ingredient that would have been used on any plantation anywhere 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.720 in North America, north American mainland, and documenting where it 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.600 came from the whole spreadsheet. Then I was like, Okay, 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:15.879 I gotta get the clothes, and I got get the 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:17.359 utensil and learn how to use the one, how to 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.960 take care of them, um, all of that, and then 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:22.760 it was about the feeling. What does it what does 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.040 it mean? And I'm actually tom I'm actually glad. I've 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.240 had negative experiences that that taught me put me in 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.200 the right mindset of just like this is not easy, 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.640 this is not cute, this is not whatever. Like one 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.280 time in the book I talked about how like I 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:43.160 was at um Strafford Hall Plantation, which was the home 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.639 plantation of the leaves in Virginia, and it was dark 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.600 and there was a big crowd for plantation Christmas. So 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.480 they had me there cooking and talking about the food. 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.120 And it was this huge pot and it was really heavy. 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.520 I mean those pots get to like sixty seventy pounds. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.080 And it was full of water, water was hot, and 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:01.639 the fire was hot and it was dark. And I 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.200 spilled some of the water and people laughed at me, 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.480 and I got immediately angry, and it was and then 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.280 I was like, I was like, y'all realized that this 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:12.639 was back in the day. I could have given I 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.520 could have gotten severely punished for even making having a 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.560 human accident a mistake. But then for them, it was 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.159 laughing at me because oh, this black I thinks he 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:25.720 knows everything and he's stumbling in the kitchen. Well, you 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.240 try to be on the brick floor on for for 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.360 twelve hours, you know, with flat feet, cooking and then 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:33.439 you know. But but even more than that, people come 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.320 to the kitchen to be like, oh, I know what 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.480 it's like to be um a slave. I'm an evangelical 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:44.680 Christian in America. Oh god, you know, I think. Yeah, 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.359 I think you also point out the book that that 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.720 not only were people punished, but people were putting ovens 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.600 for doing this. Yes, in the Caribbean and Martinique. A 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:57.200 cook was actually was put in the bake oven, thrown 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:00.359 in the bake oven and murdered because he burned a cake. 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.560 And the mistress of the plantation sat through dinner smiling 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.840 and laughing and getting drunk and then showed her guests 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.359 the skeleton. And I mean this wasn't of course, this 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:16.120 wasn't an everyday occurrence, but the cruelty was the point. 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.399 It was constant. But to go, but to go from 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.560 there to Africa was always my dream. But but because 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.960 I wanted people to understand something, I guess our point. 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:31.000 My point is not that everything was African. But you know, 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.400 Herman Taislings is something very important almost hundred years ago. 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.719 He says, everything that is born Africa remains African in spirit. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.720 And to get to to get to the other side 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.520 of the ocean, you gotta understand, Yes, there were European 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.200 and Native American and other elements in the cooking, but 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.800 the hands of the black cook were the catalyst. The 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.320 mind of the Black book was the catalyst. And you 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.840 have but people don't even think Africa has a mind. 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.520 There's an intellect, just like there is an Italian cooking 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.680 at French looking and I just want to be able 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:07.560 to be that translator. Third, through historical documents, through lived experience, 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:13.760 through people's memories, that that art and philosophy came to 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:20.080 America through food, not just the taste. Mm hmm, Yeah, 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.720 we'll be right back. Hey, this is Citizen Chef and 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.199 I'm Tom Colochio. Let's pick up where we left off 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.800 in my conversation with chef and author Michael Twitter. We're 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.840 talking about how the question of reparations in America intersect 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.000 with policy and cultural food ways, especially in the South. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.560 What is the debt and how do we pay it back? 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.240 Just from a food standpoint and from a land standpoint, 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:49.040 what do reparations look like? Um? Uh, you know, I 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.560 know HR forty is is just set up to study it. 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.320 Um If if you were put on that panel to 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:59.160 study reparations through food lens, what what does that look 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.679 like to you? Oh? First of all, we have to 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.320 correct the violence of hunger, the violence of wasted food. 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.359 We have to correct the violence of food inequality. We 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:13.840 have to correct the violence of not having land. Why 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.040 why do you refer to as I understand, but just 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:19.000 for the listener, why do you refer to as violence, um, 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:23.440 because these are ways to keep people. Um, it's it's 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:28.800 it's a passive aggressive form of war. I mean, you know, 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.280 everybody knows about the Black Panthers and it's oh, it's 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.679 scary black panthers, the scatherl scary Black panthers. Yea, they 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:38.040 were scary because they're giving out food right exactly exactly. 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:39.200