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Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM

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Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,

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Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with

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Speaker 1: Captain Wrong.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of premier networks, or their sponsors

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Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain on and each week on Beyond Contact,

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Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of

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Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from

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Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron and today

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Speaker 4: we're going to be speaking with author Joshua Kutchen. He's

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Speaker 4: the writer of eight critically acclaimed books on the paranormal,

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Speaker 4: including the two volume set Ecology of Souls, which ponders

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Speaker 4: whether the UFO alien phenomenon is reaching out to us

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Speaker 4: from beyond the stars or perhaps beyond the grave. Oh

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Speaker 4: and although he now lives in Marietta, he did live

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Speaker 4: in Roswell, Roswell, Georgia. Of course, I was all excited

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Speaker 4: to say he lived in Roswell, but it turns out

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Speaker 4: it's Marietta. Hey, Joshua, welcome. How you doing, Bride, I'm

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Speaker 4: doing well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I used to get a lot of strange looks and

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Speaker 5: people read that, would read that bio and they'd be

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Speaker 5: all excited, and then they a little bit crestfallen when

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Speaker 5: they saw.

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Speaker 4: The Georgia Rama Georgia.

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Speaker 5: Yesha, they haven't really capitalized on that in Roswell, Georgia.

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Speaker 4: I don't know why. No, they probably feel like, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's not their identity. Coming to contact in the desert

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Speaker 4: for the first time this year, that's great.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, I'm over the moon about it. I'm so excited.

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Speaker 5: It's been you know, everybody sort of develops a bucket

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Speaker 5: list of places that they'd like to go and just

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Speaker 5: even have a chance to be, which I haven't had

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Speaker 5: a chance for numerous reasons. But I'm not only it's

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Speaker 5: getting to be there, but getting to be a part

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Speaker 5: of it. I feel really quite honored, and absolutely the

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Speaker 5: end of May can't come fast enough. I know that

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Speaker 5: Breede said that she's wanting to come fast because she's

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Speaker 5: got a lot to I feel the opposite. Everybody's like

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Speaker 5: I can't wait, and we're like, well, we need another month.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's always so much work, you know, So listen, man,

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Speaker 4: your stuff's really fascinating to me. The alien phenomenon is

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Speaker 4: such an unknown obviously, and there are so many different

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Speaker 4: points of view when schools of thought in this area,

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Speaker 4: the only consensus perhaps is being that something is happening

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Speaker 4: to some people. There are all these different ideas of

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Speaker 4: quote unquote aliens being from another planet, or interdimensional travelers

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Speaker 4: or time travelers, to name three of a thousand theories.

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Speaker 4: But in Ecology of Souls you take a fascinating look

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Speaker 4: at the possibility that this might actually have something to

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Speaker 4: do with the afterlife. You know, Whitley and Anne Strieber

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Speaker 4: actually speculated about this at one point, you know, when

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Speaker 4: they struggle to understand what was happening to Whitley. So

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Speaker 4: tell us how that could all tie in.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm glad that you brought that up, because that

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Speaker 5: was one of the catalysts for this journey that I

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Speaker 5: said out on was the note that Anne had scrawled,

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Speaker 5: this has something to do with what we call death,

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Speaker 5: And I love how how how those we called death? Yeah,

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Speaker 5: it gets so much across in such few words, right, beautiful,

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Speaker 5: But so I I've been thinking about that for a while,

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Speaker 5: and I was also thinking about the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 5: Kenneth Ring released his A Mega Project book which drew

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Speaker 5: comparisons between the UFO contact experience and near death experiences

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Speaker 5: back in the nineties, and some other similarities that I

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Speaker 5: just couldn't escape, one of which was that a lot

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Speaker 5: of shamanic initiations look like well, they involved rather near

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Speaker 5: death experiences, and Eddie Bullard back in the eighties was

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Speaker 5: drawing those comparisons between shamanic initiations and alien inductions. Similarly,

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Speaker 5: you know, I have a deep and abiding love for

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Speaker 5: Western European fairy folklore, and doctor Jacques Philet pointed out

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Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty nine's Passport to Magonia that there are

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Speaker 5: strong resonances between modern UFO contact and older fairy myths,

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Speaker 5: but the fairies were closely associated with the human debt

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Speaker 5: as well. So what happens when you put all these

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Speaker 5: things together, you know, in a dialogue of the UFO

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Speaker 5: abductions look like shamanic initiations and kind of like near

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Speaker 5: death experiences, and the initiations have near death experiences, and

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Speaker 5: then it starts to look rather holistic to me. And

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Speaker 5: there is a way to examine all the data points

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Speaker 5: for a way that sort of becomes internally consistent. So

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Speaker 5: it works for me. It might not work for everyone.

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Speaker 5: I think that there are a lot of different ways

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Speaker 5: to look at UFO phenomena, but that was sort of

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Speaker 5: the entry point, and it just turned out to be

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Speaker 5: the gift that kept on giving, to the point that

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Speaker 5: I was just going to write one tidy little book

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Speaker 5: on UFOs and you know, death, and it turned up being,

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Speaker 5: you know, two books, with a third book full of

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Speaker 5: just appendices and notes and bibliography. So but it was

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Speaker 5: just it was incredibly a rewarding journey to sort of

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Speaker 5: roll up my sleeves and get into.

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Speaker 4: That this whole thing's definitely a gradation, you know, all

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Speaker 4: the way from white to black rite in between. We all,

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Speaker 4: every single person I talk to, falls somewhere on each

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Speaker 4: different topic, somewhere on that gradation. You know, could this

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Speaker 4: phenomenon itself actually be perhaps more interested in our human

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Speaker 4: consciousness or our souls after death, more than actually our

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Speaker 4: physical human bodies. We do hear in different accounts how

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Speaker 4: there are often a soul component, you know, to the

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Speaker 4: alien agenda, and we hear that perhaps they don't have souls,

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Speaker 4: or perhaps they are a form of technology without souls.

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Speaker 4: Do you have any thoughts on this? Now? I realize

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Speaker 4: it's a very easy question with a simple, definitive answer,

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Speaker 4: which in no way would be a speculation on your part.

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Speaker 4: So what's the answer.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, let's make it clear I have the

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Speaker 5: answers of no answers, right, That's that's sort of my goal.

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Speaker 5: But absolutely there's this common thread running throughout all sorts

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Speaker 5: of contact, And honestly, if you remove the consciousness component

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Speaker 5: of a lot of sightings, you wind up with just

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Speaker 5: a few sightings. I mean, there are plenty of people

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Speaker 5: who see a light in the sky and think, you know,

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Speaker 5: to think about communicating with it going a certain direction

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Speaker 5: or something, and a respond. So if you remove something

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Speaker 5: light philepathy, even from UFO contact experiences, you're you're not

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Speaker 5: left with a ton of a ton of encounters.

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Speaker 4: Right identification ones most likely yeah, yeah, and the left

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Speaker 4: are most likely something else in this guy. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 4: that's that's very true.

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Speaker 5: And again, as we were sort of talking about off

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Speaker 5: the air, I think that a lot of different answers

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Speaker 5: can account for all these things. But yeah, I mean

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Speaker 5: there is this this sort of through line that you

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Speaker 5: see from anyone who has had ce threes and above

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Speaker 5: of soul coming up as as a talking point with

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Speaker 5: the quote unquote aliens. You know, back in the age

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Speaker 5: of the contact ease, reincarnation was discussed at link to

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Speaker 5: the extent that I think there were claims that a

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Speaker 5: dan Ski, you know, reincarnated on Venus. We don't have

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Speaker 5: to necessarily buy that as true, but like it shows

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Speaker 5: that from the early days of the Flying Saucer era,

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Speaker 5: this was sort of an almost religious pursuit. It was

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Speaker 5: a sort of joke about it as being prisca euphialogia

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Speaker 5: instead of prisca theologia, like the original version of utology

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Speaker 5: that way. But you know, in the years since, other

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Speaker 5: people with close encounters. I believe it was Laurie Barnes,

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Speaker 5: who was a friend of Whitley Strieber, said that, you know,

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Speaker 5: she was under the impression that the visitors were recyclers

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Speaker 5: of souls, and they've told him similar things. They sort

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Speaker 5: of as stewards of the reincarnation process. So you have

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Speaker 5: all these different things that sort of are like a

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Speaker 5: drum beat in the background of a lot of different

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Speaker 5: contact I listened to your interview with my mentor Greg

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Speaker 5: Bishop about like, you know, well, there are some NDEs

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Speaker 5: that have gray aliens in them, and I would say

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Speaker 5: that you kind of have to broaden the scope even.

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Speaker 5: I mean, if you look at sort of something like

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Speaker 5: you know, Ray Hernandez's free study that he conducted, almost

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Speaker 5: a majority I believe of the entities that were encountered

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Speaker 5: during those UFO encounters were light beings, beings of light.

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Speaker 5: So if you say that those are sort of euphological beings,

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Speaker 5: then almost every NDE has the same sort of presences

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Speaker 5: in them.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 5: It's all about sort of looking at these topics in

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Speaker 5: a different way and reframing them. You know, there are

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Speaker 5: other salient characteristics that we could go through like a

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Speaker 5: laundry list in terms of sounds, in terms of the

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Speaker 5: tunnel experience, and all these things about indiees that look

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Speaker 5: like the UFO contact experience, but at the end of

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Speaker 5: the day, like that is the question, right, what does

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Speaker 5: it mean? And it seems to have something to do

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Speaker 5: with the human soul being at stake. Whether that's good

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Speaker 5: or bad. I think that, you know, is in the

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Speaker 5: eye of the beholder. A lot of times there are

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Speaker 5: numerous references to the extra extraterrestrials being interested in human

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Speaker 5: souls because they don't have them, or because they're a

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Speaker 5: race that lost them or something. I think of the

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Speaker 5: work of Nigel Kerner, who was somebody who talked about

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Speaker 5: those But you know, so there's different ways to look

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Speaker 5: at this. I think I think that we're kindred spirits

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Speaker 5: in the sense that I'm inclined to say all of

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Speaker 5: the above, to the extent that maybe even it does

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Speaker 5: shift from person to person.

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Speaker 4: It almost feels more scary to me when thinking of

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Speaker 4: it our soul, because that's a lot more on the

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Speaker 4: line than just this life. You know, it's our soul

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Speaker 4: they're coming after, right, you know.

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Speaker 5: I think that if you look at sort of the

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Speaker 5: disclosure seasons that we've had over the years, because they

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Speaker 5: do come in seasons, right, and this has been a

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Speaker 5: very productive season. I've changed my tune on that event

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Speaker 5: if you look at sort of the whole recurring theme

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Speaker 5: of disclosure over the years, an argument could be made

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Speaker 5: that this is the big secret to conceal. I mean,

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Speaker 5: once an authority structure admits that you are immortal and

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Speaker 5: that the worst thing that they can do to you,

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Speaker 5: ending your life, frankly, in terms of corporal punishment, the

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Speaker 5: worst thing that they can due to you, has no

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Speaker 5: bearing on your fundamental existence, well then you lose all

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Speaker 5: control as an authority structure, right. And if you look

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Speaker 5: at the sort of movements that have been tamped down

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Speaker 5: over the years by various governments going all the way

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Speaker 5: back to the Roman Empire, these are typically religious movements

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Speaker 5: and social movements and things like that. They have very

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Speaker 5: little to do with scientific discoveries as much, unless you're

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Speaker 5: sort of like looking at sort of the relationship between

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Speaker 5: the church and state anyway. So I think that sort

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Speaker 5: of might be the biggest, biggest secret, the secret behind

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Speaker 5: the secret that we might be dealing with here.

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Speaker 4: Could this also be part of the reason that we

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Speaker 4: don't get disclosure from our government because they've discovered or

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Speaker 4: uncovered that this is my bigger than just somebody flying

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Speaker 4: here from another planet, which would be this scary. But

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Speaker 4: if it's they really do affect our souls, then it's

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Speaker 4: that scary. Is that possible?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think that's orders of magnitude more more impactful.

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Speaker 5: You know, I have a friend who I think I

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Speaker 5: always keep two or three occultist friends in the background

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Speaker 5: because it's always like to have some of them in

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Speaker 5: your camp right now in my opinion, like my occultist

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Speaker 5: friends who are well read or the smartest people in

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Speaker 5: the room on these topics. And one of them said, yeah,

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Speaker 5: you know, the UFO problem always reverts back to spiritual

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Speaker 5: warfare when it gets to a certain level of government discussion.

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Speaker 5: And that's what we're seeing again. And you know, I'm

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Speaker 5: not saying that's right or wrong. I'm just saying that

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Speaker 5: this is something that I think a lot of people

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Speaker 5: are aware of, and it's not necessarily the implications that

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Speaker 5: you see here a lot of people hand ringing over

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Speaker 5: of you know, did Jesus die for the Zeta reticulan sins.

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Speaker 5: I don't think that's the real issue that's a stake.

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Speaker 5: I think it's again the secret behind the secret that is, like, yes,

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Speaker 5: there are other intelligences, maybe they're interdimensional maybe they're extraterrestrial,

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Speaker 5: but that pales in comparison to the fact that, yes,

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Speaker 5: there are metaphor physical consequences for what you choose to

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Speaker 5: do in this existence. You know, maybe karma is a thing,

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Speaker 5: maybe souls are a thing, and maybe you know, reward

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Speaker 5: and damnation or things like that is something that everybody

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Speaker 5: has to take a week off of work and shut

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Speaker 5: themselves in their house and then work scientists from another planet.

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Speaker 5: All right, Joshua, we got to take a break there.

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Speaker 4: When we come back, we're going to ask you about

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Speaker 4: ancient stories that describe stories about fairies and how there

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Speaker 4: seems to be this remarkable similarity to modern day UFO

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Speaker 4: UFO sightings and alien encounters. You listen to Beyond Contact

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Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.

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Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Joshua Kuchen. Joshua,

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Speaker 4: there seems to be a very notable similarity across centuries.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about eight hundred years here with accounts that

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Speaker 4: are described as fairy encounters and those of alien encounters. Again,

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Speaker 4: I remember a passage in Whitley Streeamer's Communion Again that

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Speaker 4: directly calls this out as well. Can you walk us

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Speaker 4: through some of the parallels between the fairy folklore and

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Speaker 4: modern day UFO encounters.

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Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, well, this is this is really where

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Speaker 5: my heart is. A lot of my work always returns

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Speaker 5: to this question. A lot of these were enumerated by

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Speaker 5: doctor Volley and his work. You know, in the broadest strokes,

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Speaker 5: you have little men in green turning into little green men,

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Speaker 5: but you have also have you know, things like the

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Speaker 5: powers of levitation, powers to lead people astray. You know,

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Speaker 5: there's a lot of traditions referring to people being led

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Speaker 5: astray by the fairies, and Bud Hopkins talked at length

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Speaker 5: about how some abductees would face these compulsions to pull

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Speaker 5: off onto a deserted road and they just happened to

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Speaker 5: have their flying saucer experience there, right.

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Speaker 4: Sorry for saying.

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Speaker 5: Flying saucer so much, by the way, I'm I'm not

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Speaker 5: I love it. I'm old fashioned and contrarian, so that's

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Speaker 5: part great. But you know what's been fascinating to me

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Speaker 5: in terms of like this sort of fairy alien continuum

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Speaker 5: is how has just been the gift that keeps on

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Speaker 5: giving because every time I think that I've reached the

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Speaker 5: bottom of these comparisons, I just go a little bit

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Speaker 5: further and it's more rewarding. I think you can draw

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Speaker 5: strong comparisons to you know, supernatural child abductions and the

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Speaker 5: changling tradition and sort of the human alien hybrid programs.

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Speaker 5: I've talked about that in one of my books.

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Speaker 4: By changeling, you mean having a foot in two different worlds, right.

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Speaker 5: Well, the changeing tradition in the fairy sense was the

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Speaker 5: idea of a human being that was swapped swapped for

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Speaker 5: a fairy infant or an elderly fairy.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, which is another tie in with the hybrids.

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Speaker 5: And if you go back to like you know, Walter

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Speaker 5: Evans Wentz and you read the descriptions of these changing fairies,

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Speaker 5: you know, big heads, big eyes, wispy hair, like it's

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Speaker 5: just it reads like these baby presentations that you know,

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Speaker 5: doctor David Jacobs has talked about. So you know, obviously

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Speaker 5: there's some parallels there. But the moment, I tell you what,

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Speaker 5: around the moment that I really realized that, oh this

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Speaker 5: isn't like a vague comparison, like this is the same thing.

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Speaker 5: This is the moment I realized that the words blast, blister,

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Speaker 5: and blustery all share the same root, because on a

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Speaker 5: blustery day, you might get hit with a blast of

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Speaker 5: wind that was sent by the fairies and it would

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Speaker 5: give you a blister. And this sort of ailment, known

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Speaker 5: as the fairy blast, could have extreme effects on people.

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Speaker 5: It could handicap people inevitably. Whenever people would open up

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Speaker 5: these fairy blasts, you know, they'd go to the local

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Speaker 5: cunning man or cunning woman or a faery doctor. They

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Speaker 5: go and have it opened up, and they would find

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Speaker 5: bones and bits of cloth and teeth and porcelain and

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Speaker 5: stuff like this. And it's that sounds so much like

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Speaker 5: the modern alien implant, you know scenario. And again people

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Speaker 5: are saying, oh, Josh is being skeptical and saying that

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Speaker 5: this is all in people's heads. No, I'm not. I'm

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Speaker 5: saying that we've we have interacted with something, and I'm

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Speaker 5: convinced that the fairy traditions are describing the UFO phenomenon.

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Speaker 5: But I don't think either of those is a superior

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Speaker 5: way of looking at this intelligence. I think they're all

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Speaker 5: culture our.

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Speaker 4: Lens that we have technology and they didn't have technology,

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Speaker 4: so they would use, they would call it I think magic.

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Speaker 5: Oh, absolutely, logical thing, right, And in one hundred years

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Speaker 5: from now, you know, we might be having people talking

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Speaker 5: about in abduction experiences where they're saying, oh, the AI

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Speaker 5: ships came out of the underground server farm and stole

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Speaker 5: the like. The intelligence is there, and I do think

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Speaker 5: that it upgrades the mask that it hides behind pretty previews.

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Speaker 4: And I think the fairies it could have been more

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Speaker 4: of a religious these are spirit beings or whatever.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred percent. And that's that's something that's worth

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Speaker 5: sort of highlighting, is that nobody really knows exactly sort

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Speaker 5: of the evolution of fairy traditions, at least in Europe.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes people say that they were demoted pagan gods, or

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Speaker 5: that they were you know, angels that were too bad

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Speaker 5: for heaven or too good for hell. But again, there

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Speaker 5: is this constant refrain that you hear when you really

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Speaker 5: dig into the original folkloric sources of them possibly being

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Speaker 5: human beings, of people seeing their dead relatives and loved

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Speaker 5: ones when they happen to wander into a fairy fort

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Speaker 5: in the middle of the night. You know, there's this

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Speaker 5: always presence with and association with the dead. And so

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Speaker 5: if you use that power of sort of the transitive power,

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Speaker 5: I would say, if fairies resemble UFO occupants and fairies

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Speaker 5: resemble the dead, then what does that say about our

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Speaker 5: UFO occupants? And it's not it's a bit of a heresy,

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Speaker 5: but there are points there that I think really are

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Speaker 5: worth considering, you know, not the least of which is

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Speaker 5: that certain animals that are associated with these death transitions,

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Speaker 5: animals that are known as psychopomps, these characters that escort

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Speaker 5: the human dead to the afterlife. Think of Anubis and

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Speaker 5: Hermes and things like that. These animals that are associated

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Speaker 5: with that are dogs, horses, and birds. And these are

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Speaker 5: animals that you see all across not only fairy traditions

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Speaker 5: but also the UFO tradition. My friend Mike Clelland with

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Speaker 5: the owls, is a great example of that.

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Speaker 4: Owls, coyotes. Absolutely. You know, there are other things that

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Speaker 4: are specifically kind of unique to alien encounters that also appear.

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Speaker 4: There are like missing time, and.

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Speaker 5: That seems to be a reworking of that older tradition

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Speaker 5: where you know, a year spent, sorry, a day spent

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Speaker 5: in fairyland might end up being a year in our world.

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Speaker 5: There are plenty of stories of people going to fairyland

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Speaker 5: for what they thought was a couple of hours, and

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Speaker 5: they'd emerge and their entire town would be changed, and

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Speaker 5: generations would have passed.

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Speaker 4: That's some familiar this one, Joshua. I go to see

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Speaker 4: my mom for two days. It feels like I'm there

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Speaker 4: for a month, so I know exactly what this is like. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: are other direct things, Joshua, that there are nighttime encounters.

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Speaker 4: Typically there's these altered states of sleep paralysis trances that

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Speaker 4: these people said that they were in. It's kind of

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Speaker 4: remarkable how on the nose it is, isn't it.

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Speaker 5: It's shockingly on the nose. I mean, like the association

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Speaker 5: of anomalous lights was once always blamed on fairies, and

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Speaker 5: now when we see, you know, a light in the

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Speaker 5: sky or a light bobbing across the landscape, we are

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Speaker 5: more likely to attribute that to UFOs. Really, like I said,

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Speaker 5: it really is the gift that seems to keep on giving.

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Speaker 5: The only thing that you could sort of really criticize

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Speaker 5: is this idea that well, fairies didn't necessarily travel in

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Speaker 5: flying saucers. But if you're looking at the way that

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Speaker 5: the phenomenon sort of upgrades of software, so to speak.

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Speaker 5: Fairies were always attributed the ability to levitate and fly

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Speaker 5: and to pluck people up and drop them off in

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Speaker 5: far from places. So yeah, I would argue that if

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Speaker 5: you took your usual seventeenth century, eighteenth century account from

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Speaker 5: some of these older folklore books and just sort of

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Speaker 5: swapped out the proper nouns and the locations like a madlib,

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Speaker 5: it would read just like a modern alien deduction scenario.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what Whitley did in Communion. He had two

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Speaker 4: pages I remember this from thirty years ago where you

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Speaker 4: read one and it was actually about fairies coming down

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Speaker 4: from the trees, and then the next one it was

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Speaker 4: aliens coming down from the sky. But they were really

386
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Speaker 4: kind of the same story and it's eerie, you know.

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Speaker 4: A big strong one is the telepathic communication.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's it's the sort of thing where

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Speaker 5: this doesn't get talked a lot, even in like fairy

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Speaker 5: scholar circles. And there are fairy scholars, I know, but itcholar. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: but it doesn't get talked about even in that so much.

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Speaker 5: But like, fairies were sometimes believed to possess people, and

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Speaker 5: if you look back to I don't know, nineteen seventies

394
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Speaker 5: literature of Ruth Montgomery talking about walk Ins, it reads

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Speaker 5: very similar as well. You know, one of the things

396
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Speaker 5: that I think is always worth highlighting too, is that

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Speaker 5: there was this inextricable association between fairies and certain landmarks,

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Speaker 5: oftentimes hills and some traditions ranging across Europe but also

399
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Speaker 5: Eastern Europe. There was a belief that you know, when

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Speaker 5: you people died, they would sort of go into the hill,

401
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Speaker 5: which is also you know, tied up in burial mounds

402
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Speaker 5: and that sort of thing. But when you think about that, like,

403
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Speaker 5: you know, hills and mountains where the fairies lived, and

404
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Speaker 5: there are plenty of stories of you know, supposed UFO

405
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Speaker 5: bases being these locations as well, even if not that, though,

406
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Speaker 5: even if not that, you've got, you know, stories of

407
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Speaker 5: underground UFO bases and where was fairyland almost always located.

408
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Speaker 5: It was always located underground, So you have this sort

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Speaker 5: of recurring I can't emphasize how many layers there are

410
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Speaker 5: to this onion, No, actually I can, Actually I can,

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Speaker 5: because I've been writing books about this comparison for ten

412
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Speaker 5: years now so or eleven years. So, yeah, it keeps

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Speaker 5: on being rewarding time and time again.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned alien implants, and I think that's a really

415
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Speaker 4: good one because they used to say fairy marks on

416
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Speaker 4: your arm? Oh, what's that? Markets from a fairy And

417
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Speaker 4: it's very similar to what we say, see that people

418
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Speaker 4: claim where it was given to them by an alien?

419
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Speaker 4: Could these implants or marks have a symbol meaning or

420
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Speaker 4: a psychological undertone more than actually physically being what they say?

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Speaker 5: Well, see, these are the really strange waters that I

422
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Speaker 5: tend to swim in, which are sort of a story

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Speaker 5: for you on a sort of a level beyond this,

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Speaker 5: which is which is that I tend to think that

425
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Speaker 5: we have a lot of our concepts of physical versus

426
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Speaker 5: non physical, external versus internal, we have a lot of

427
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Speaker 5: that mixed up, right. I mean, if you look at

428
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Speaker 5: something like side phenomena, that's an internal phenomenon that effects

429
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Speaker 5: and reacts to the world outside of us. Ghosts seem

430
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Speaker 5: to be ephemeral, but they can slam doors and you know,

431
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 5: leave footprints sometimes. In some of the older parapsychology literature

432
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,479
Speaker 5: is what is the implant? Well, I think it can

433
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 5: be two things at once. I think that it can

434
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 5: be something that is mundane and maybe even has a

435
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,199
Speaker 5: mundane explanation on this side of the realm. But I

436
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 5: think there's a symbolic metaphysical imprint on the level up

437
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 5: that's exactly what people think it is, right, I mean,

438
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 5: I would say the similar thing to a lot of this,

439
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 5: you know, the UFO human alien hybrid stuff. Like I'm

440
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 5: not denying that there's probably some anomalies if you take

441
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 5: a blood sample of these individuals, some of whom I've

442
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 5: met and worked with, But I think that it might

443
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 5: be more of a metaphysical truth. The problem is is

444
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,159
Speaker 5: that we're living in a culture that has sort of

445
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 5: downplayed supernatural things and metaphysical things and all these things,

446
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 5: the symbolic things and archetypal things like, we don't care

447
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 5: about that as much. It's like we're a real brass

448
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 5: tax culture, or at least we have been for the several

449
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 5: past several hundred years. I think that we're on the

450
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 5: cusp of that changing. Then we might be dealing with

451
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 5: more both ands in this space than either ors.

452
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 4: That's well put. Hey, when we come back, we're gonna

453
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 4: ask Joshua about the possible connection between psychedelics and the

454
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 4: alien experience as people claim. You're listening to Beyond Contact

455
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.

456
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact speaking with Joshua Kuchin.

457
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 4: Josh there seems to be some sort of relationship or

458
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,479
Speaker 4: at least some overlap between I mean, some psychedelics and

459
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 4: the alien phenomenon were even entering another realm of existence.

460
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on that.

461
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 5: Well, you know, there are two ways to sort of

462
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 5: tackle this, and I'm inclined since this is where the

463
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 5: discussion is, to look at it through that sort of

464
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 5: ecology of soul's perspective, you know, with being focused around

465
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 5: dead and ancestor traditions. I mean a lot of traditionally

466
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 5: used psychedelics, entheogens, these ideas idea of releasing the inner

467
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 5: god that are used in indigenous societies. They were all

468
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 5: part of like a way of well many of them

469
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 5: were a part of a way to not only communicate

470
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 5: with the spirit world, but sometimes the dead or ancestors specifically.

471
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 5: You know, this is something that Terence mckinna was convinced of.

472
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 5: He was convinced that we not only did he call

473
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 5: DMT bungee cording into the Bardo. But he also he

474
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 5: also said that he was left with the impression that

475
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 5: when you go to the DMT space, you're actually entering

476
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 5: an ecology of souls, which is where the book actually

477
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 5: takes this name. So again, it's all about that sort

478
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 5: of transitive property that I've been emphasizing here. If we

479
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 5: have the this DMT or just more broadly speaking, psychedelic

480
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 5: and theogenic space that is dealing with the dead. You know,

481
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 5: there are plenty of stories of people seeing dead loved

482
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 5: ones in that space, and there's some sort of death

483
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 5: connection with the UFO phenomenon, and a lot of shamanic

484
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 5: traditions use Indiagen's like it all starts to play together

485
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 5: really nicely. You know what else is interesting I find compelling,

486
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 5: And you know, we talked a little bit about missing

487
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 5: time in that last segment. There's also sort of a

488
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 5: half life to one's memory and a lot of these experiences.

489
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 5: You know, if you don't write down your DMT trip,

490
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 5: you're likely to sort of forget it. This is something

491
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 5: that's been noticed as well that really puts me in

492
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 5: the same mindset of people who have had dreams and

493
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 5: don't write them down, or people who you know, there's

494
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 5: a Steve Boucher is an alien abductee whose books I've read,

495
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 5: who was sort of kept a journal. Every time he

496
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 5: would have an experience, he'd come in and write it down,

497
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 5: or else he would forget. It's all sort of unfolding

498
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 5: in this sort of like dreamlike other dimension, other space.

499
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 5: Right to say nothing of the fact that you know,

500
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 5: people have taken all sorts of substances from DMT to

501
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 5: salvia and experienced time dilation. Some of those salvia stories

502
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 5: are terrifying, people saying that they, you know, take one

503
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 5: hit and wind up spending ten years as a suitcase

504
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 5: under a staircase, a.

505
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 4: Suitcase under a stairwell or something. It's terrifying, unbelievable. You

506
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 4: know you mentioned Tara McKenna. You know, I wrote down

507
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 4: a couple of points that he made to bring up

508
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 4: to you. It's great that he had the ecology of souls.

509
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 4: He also specifically described DMT as I wrote down four

510
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: points here. He said, a gateway to the ontological real

511
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 4: alternative dimension, a realm inhabited by autonomous self transforming machine elves. God.

512
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 4: That sounds like a little fairy to me, to be honest.

513
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 4: And that's the thing.

514
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 5: You know, you keep on seeing these similar phrases and

515
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 5: similar descriptions, and you keep stumbling over them, and like that.

516
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 5: I guess that's really where my heart is at, is

517
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 5: sort of this interdisciplinary comparativism.

518
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 4: And yeah, I.

519
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 5: Think that there's something really so elegant in that. And

520
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 5: then you take a look at the fact that there's

521
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 5: some research that suggests that, you know, near death experiences

522
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 5: very closely resemble being on a DMT trip. You know,

523
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 5: there have been some people that have actually theorized that

524
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 5: under intense trauma, that's what DMT is for, is to

525
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 5: sort of like, you know, help us to get past

526
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 5: that threshold. I think it was sort of Rick Strassman

527
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 5: who talked about his his DMT work, suggesting that perhaps

528
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 5: DMT was like the rocket fuel to take us to

529
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 5: the afterlife, in which case all starts to make a

530
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 5: perfect sense in my view.

531
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 4: He calls it the spirit molecule, and he points out

532
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 4: how it's in every living thing, so that's amazing too. Yeah,

533
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 4: and McKenna also said that DMT is not a drug,

534
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 4: it's a doorway. Fascinating. Yeah, he was saying that humans

535
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 4: may be embedded with a much larger trans biological network

536
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 4: of intelligences. Do you think that that's possible. That feels

537
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 4: kind of in line with what you're thinking. I mean, yeah,

538
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 4: And that's also I guess part of the reason that

539
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 4: I labor under the impression that sometimes people misunderstand me

540
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 4: and they're saying, I think, I'm saying that it's not aliens,

541
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,719
Speaker 4: or it is this, or it is that, and like,

542
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 4: I think, again, it's all all of the above sort

543
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 4: of questions. So that's why I love That's why I

544
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 4: chose this idea of the an ecology of souls, the

545
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: idea that there is sort of a network at place

546
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: here and that if you sort of go up enough

547
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: ladders of reality, a lot of the things that we

548
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 4: think are strong distinctions become much more indistinct, so that

549
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 4: at once these things can be all sorts of things.

550
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 4: That's all phrase too. I like it.

551
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 5: Well, what that does for me is it relieves a

552
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 5: lot of the pressure we get so hung up on

553
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 5: the initial binary of are these things real or not

554
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 5: and then that secondary sort of limited multiple choice question

555
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 5: of what they are, you know, And I'm much more

556
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 5: interested in what kind of really are and sort of

557
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 5: leaping past those questions to take an ontological position where

558
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 5: you can say, okay, well, assuming these things are real

559
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 5: and assuming that they might be X y Z, what

560
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 5: does that tell us about this experience and sort of

561
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 5: this relationship that we have with this other that's been

562
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 5: quite frankly co walking with us fellow travelers, you know,

563
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 5: since we first stepped down out of the trees.

564
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 4: I think, are there other substances or realms in history

565
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 4: or folklore that you have come across that seem also

566
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 4: reminiscent of the email visitation. It's always intriguing to me,

567
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 4: the tie ins.

568
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 5: I think there's an interesting argument to be made in

569
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 5: that sort of Terrence McKenna space about mushrooms and the

570
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 5: way that they not only resemble flying saucers with their caps,

571
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 5: but also mushroom clouds like you know, and what two

572
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 5: more poignant symbols of the atomic era are there than

573
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 5: flying saucers and mushroom clouds, right, But the fact that

574
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 5: their spores can survive through deep space, the fact that

575
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 5: they are you know, as we as long as we're

576
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 5: talking about dead like they are sort of emissaries of

577
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 5: that cycle right, they break down decaying and rotting matter.

578
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 5: And now, as far as the messages that happen in

579
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 5: that space, I do believe that it was. Yeah, it was.

580
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 5: It was Terence McKenna was talking about five dry grams

581
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 5: in silent darkness, and then he would sort of, you know,

582
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 5: put out this call that he learned on I Love

583
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 5: Lucy of little green men, come in, Come in, little

584
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 5: green men. And then he would hear this sort of

585
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 5: fairy brigade or you know, alien esque brigade that would

586
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 5: come ushering in. You know, I myself have spoken to

587
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 5: someone who she and her boyfriend were both taking mushrooms

588
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 5: same time in their backyard. She went in to get

589
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 5: a glass of water. You know, they're sort of riding

590
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 5: the peak of the experience. She goes into good a

591
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 5: glass of water, and she looks outside and there's this

592
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 5: bright light shining on her boyfriend and she she goes outside.

593
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 5: She's like, you won't believe what these things are making

594
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 5: you see happen to you. And he's like, you wouldn't

595
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 5: believe what just happened. There was a flying saucer that.

596
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 4: Came down no way.

597
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you know, I, you know, I think that

598
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 5: you know, if you're really an adherent of the extraterrestrial hypothesis,

599
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 5: you might say, Oh, the UFO just happened to show

600
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 5: up when they were both on a mushroom trip, and look,

601
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 5: maybe that's the case. To me, it's much more interesting

602
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 5: and numinous and begs so many more questions about the

603
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 5: fabric of reality. If we assumed that they had a

604
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 5: shared hallucination on mushrooms, I mean, that would be that

605
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 5: would that would really upend everything that we think we

606
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 5: know about you.

607
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 4: Well, that would imply either telepathy or some sort of mind.

608
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 5: Or that network that you were dealing with rightere nodes

609
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 5: in this sort of network that in itself is sort

610
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 5: of like a fractal everything vibrating.

611
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe you know, on certain chemicals, your your your

612
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: brain waves are different because you're vibrating differently, maybe you're

613
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 4: more in tune or susceptible to some of these things.

614
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 4: All of it, you know, it all could tie in.

615
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 4: Are there other things? Like we mentioned near death experiences.

616
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: It's interesting how that parallels the contact experience as well

617
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 4: a lot of things that sort of overlap there. Can

618
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 4: you think of another one besides the fairies and the

619
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 4: near death experiences that stands out to.

620
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 5: You, well, the one that I've always really resonated with.

621
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 5: And I give full credit to Eddie Bullard for talking

622
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 5: about this, and also Simon Harvey Wilson, who's a late

623
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 5: scholar who's doctoral dissertation on the topic really influenced me.

624
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 5: But that's the connection between UFO contact experiences and shamanism.

625
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 5: I mean, the way that you look at these things

626
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 5: as sort of initiations or initiatory or being laden with symbols.

627
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 5: I mean, arguably that's a near death experience and psychedelic

628
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 5: trip thing too, right, but it's also a very sort

629
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 5: of has that shamanic flavor to it. Again, it's another

630
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 5: one of those mad Lib experiences. We were talking about

631
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 5: switching things out, and it sounds like a UFO contact experience.

632
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 5: If you read some of this literature on the shamanic

633
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 5: practices of Eastern Eurasia and some of these North American

634
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 5: practices and some of the practices in Island, Southeast Asia

635
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 5: and Australia, it's like, oh, you have these people who

636
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 5: are in the wilderness taken over by spirits that are

637
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 5: small that take them to an underground cavern that is

638
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 5: circular and poorly lit, and they split open their skull

639
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 5: and they put crystals in their head to make them

640
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 5: have their phenomenal powers. And then they return and they're

641
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 5: sort of like these mediators between the community and nature.

642
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 5: It's like, this is the same thing. It really starts

643
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 5: to look. That's where the ecology of Soul's journey took me.

644
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 5: Is like, once you put death at the center of

645
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 5: all this, which really isn't death, it's the cycle of

646
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 5: life and rebirth, but whatever. Once you put death as

647
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 5: the hub of this wheel, a lot of things start

648
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 5: to just end up looking very similar and making sense

649
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 5: because a lot of these shamanic initiations they involve or

650
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 5: simulate that sort of near death experience. More broadly speaking,

651
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: they symbolize a death and rebirth narrative, which arguably is

652
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 5: kind of what I think a lot of psychoedel are.

653
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 5: They're sort of like their near death experienced simulators. I mean, like,

654
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 5: I think that the Eleusinian mysteries of Greece were probably

655
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 5: near death experienced simulators. I kind of wonder if the

656
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 5: Pyramids weren't near death experience simulators. You know, something that

657
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 5: takes you, you know to this point and allows you

658
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 5: to come back because every time you come back, you

659
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 5: come back with knowledge. Right, this is something that the

660
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 5: a lot of Greek seers back in the classical tradition,

661
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 5: they would go.

662
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 4: It's even the hero's journey, right, No, it totally is.

663
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 5: And that's again that's the archetypal strata that I really

664
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 5: really like to go into. But like a lot of

665
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 5: Greek seers had their powers of prophecy because they refuse

666
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 5: to drink the drink of forgetfulness before being reincarnated. So

667
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 5: it's so idea of going to a space and coming

668
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 5: back chains that you see time and time and time again.

669
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: You know.

670
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 5: There's a quote that haunts me, Joe Lewell's I think

671
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 5: was his name, but he was talking about how a

672
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 5: lot of these people are dragging these experiences and they

673
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 5: don't have the scaffolding in the twenty first century to

674
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 5: interpret it. And it's almost as if the universe has

675
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 5: a shaman quotion or quota rather shaman quota. If we

676
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 5: don't provide them, the universe sort of steps in and

677
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 5: forcibly has us, you know, produce these people. But we

678
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 5: as a culture are sort of letting them down or

679
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 5: have historically let them down, right, deriding them as crazy

680
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 5: people and not letting them, you know, find place in

681
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 5: our collective, you know, worldwide tribe.

682
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 4: I mean, you take a break. When we come back,

683
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 4: we're going to ask Joshua about whether this could be

684
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 4: something else. Perhaps it's just something psychological. You're listening to

685
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 4: Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM

686
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 4: Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact and

687
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 4: we're speaking with Joshua Kutchen, and I'm just schooling him

688
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 4: with all these references and knowledge that he's lacking.

689
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 5: Obviously, the blast well, yeah you hear that joke doesn't

690
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 5: land because I'm having too good at a time.

691
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 4: Do you think that this could be just a way

692
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: that the human mind works, Maybe that we somehow create

693
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 4: these other beings, maybe to create a mystery, or maybe

694
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 4: to explain some of the unknowns about our natural world

695
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 4: in one form or another. There seems to be some

696
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 4: sort of interaction with unseen beings throughout most of civilization.

697
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 5: Well, I think that the first answer to that question

698
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 5: is both and right. That's always That's always an answer

699
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 5: for me, both and right. But I think to the

700
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 5: heart of what you're asking, specifically, the question that we

701
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 5: will never be able to answer. I've heard it said

702
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 5: in SI studies is the objective existence of spirits? Right, Like,

703
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 5: we can we can do randomized control studies with random

704
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 5: number generators and precognition experiments. We can sort of like,

705
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 5: we can sort of get our way to proving that.

706
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 5: I would argue that we have proven that, but we

707
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 5: can get our way to proving that. But there will

708
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 5: always be that lingering question of whether or not this

709
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 5: other intelligence you're interacting with is in your head if

710
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 5: you're like, A, right, that's.

711
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 4: Again I'm doing. Yeah, I have to say, I don't know.

712
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 5: I think I used to really resist the idea that

713
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 5: this was somehow coming from us, like, let me settle

714
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 5: this issue. Weird quote unquote impossible things do happen. I

715
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 5: am convinced of that. The only question to me is

716
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 5: is there another intelligence out there? Or is it just

717
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 5: somehow a projection about the core of this question that's

718
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 5: the core of all of this. That's exactly it. It

719
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 5: will phrase. I think that, you know, I think that

720
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 5: there is something very telling to the fact that you know,

721
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 5: Miracle of the Sun at Fotoma Notwithstanding, you don't generally

722
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 5: get a lot of sightings involving tons of people, Like

723
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 5: that's an interesting detail, you know, when you have multiple

724
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 5: people on the siding, it's sort of a novel thing.

725
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 5: That's what the old school upologists used to like, you know,

726
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 5: red marker, let's circle this one right, Yeah, but that

727
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 5: one also with so many people almost makes me feel

728
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 5: like it's the it's a mass hallucination almost like they

729
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 5: all want to see it kind of well, and even

730
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 5: then it doesn't well, and even then it doesn't roll

731
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 5: out the idea that it's coming from one person.

732
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 3: Mean.

733
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 5: A classic example of this, I heard Chris O'Brien say

734
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 5: this before he passed away, was that the number of

735
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 5: people who who he would take reports from who would

736
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 5: say they would all agree that, you know, yes, I

737
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 5: saw the UFO in the sky, But then they would

738
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 5: disagree on shape, and they would disagree on the color

739
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 5: of the lights. And it's almost like there's some sort

740
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 5: of bridge in between what was being seen in the

741
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 5: perception that was sort of tailored to everyone's experience. And

742
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 5: these experiences are always very personal, they are always sort

743
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,959
Speaker 5: of tailored to individuals experiences. That's why so many synchronicities.

744
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 5: I think, well up in the wake of UFO experiences

745
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 5: because they're free those people, you know.

746
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 4: So I really don't know. I don't, I'm not.

747
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 5: I'm not going to say it's it's purely psychological, although

748
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 5: that is my disarming counterpoint. Whenever a skeptic talks to me,

749
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 5: I'm like, well, at the very least of it, if

750
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 5: it's all psychological, that tells us a lot about ourselves, right,

751
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 5: And there's a lot yeah, And they have to go, yeah,

752
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 5: I guess that's true, and then they go about their way.

753
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 5: If it comes from us, we are orders of magnitude,

754
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 5: more powerful than we think we are, and complicated, and

755
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 5: so again, a lot of what I try to when

756
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 5: I try to sit with these questions, I try to

757
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 5: think of them in ways that sort of take the

758
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 5: pressure off of things. And to me, that does take

759
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 5: the pressure.

760
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 4: Off of us.

761
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 5: My inner twelve year old wants there to be aliens

762
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 5: and Bigfoot and various Well, it's all these things, right,

763
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 5: But it is still miraculous if we are all hardwired

764
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 5: to generate certain archetypes. It is still miraculous if we

765
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 5: can unleash literal superhuman abilities in times of trauma and crisis,

766
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 5: it is still miraculous if I can project something that

767
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 5: both you and I see in the sky from myself,

768
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 5: that's still quite frankly an enchanted world, and it's a

769
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 5: world that I want to.

770
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 4: Live in, right Or is it a shared experience that

771
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 4: we're having that you're Are you putting that in my mind?

772
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 4: Are we somehow connected that way? There's so many ways

773
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 4: to go. Hey, you know, you just brought up synchronicities,

774
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 4: which is my absolute, very favorite thing because I know

775
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 4: that that's also real. So can you tell me how

776
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: do you interpret synchronicities?

777
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 5: For the most part, I don't want to hear your syncreticities, right,

778
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 5: And what I mean by that is they are like dreams, right,

779
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 5: Like you know, my wife has very very vivid dreams.

780
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 5: I don't he tells me her dreams, and I love

781
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 5: her to death, but I generally start to is over right,

782
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 5: But here's the thing, because they're not for me, they're

783
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 5: for her. And similarly, I think a lot of synchronicities

784
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 5: are like that way, unless they're like really mind boggling

785
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 5: and very much.

786
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 4: That's the whole point of it. Being a synchronisty compared

787
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 4: on contien is that the personalness of it.

788
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 5: I guess what I'm saying is like people will hear

789
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 5: a series of numbers and then they'll start looking for

790
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 5: those numbers and it's you know, from somebody else because

791
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 5: that was their magical number. For synchronicities, Like, that's not

792
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 5: the way you do it. You have to find out.

793
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 5: You have to find your own significance on the face

794
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 5: out of the blue.

795
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 4: That's the point of it. I think, yeah, yeah.

796
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 5: That's one one, one important thing. As far as what

797
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 5: they are, I think that they are sort of I'm

798
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 5: very much hew to the classic interpretation that there's signposts

799
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 5: that you're on the right track, that sort of thing,

800
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 5: Like I really resonate with that. But also I think

801
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 5: it's kind of like I think Young described this in

802
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 5: his essay on synchronicities, where he was talking about it's

803
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 5: almost like we live on the surface of the ocean

804
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 5: and out there's an island, but it isn't really an island,

805
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 5: Like the island is actually connected to this entire layer

806
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 5: of bedrock that's underneath this. At all times, we just

807
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 5: happen to see the island. And I think that that's

808
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 5: a lot of what we see with synchronicities as well,

809
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 5: but they have to have that sort of transformative quality

810
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 5: to an individual that's really personalized, or else I don't

811
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 5: think it's as important. So yeah, don't go looking for

812
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 5: other people synchronicities. Well no, no, no, or it's got

813
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 5: that's to me. The point is that it's just so

814
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 5: unique to you that only I have this memory and

815
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 5: only I. Yeah, that's what's so amazing. In your view,

816
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 5: are UFO encounters more likely solely technological events or technological

817
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 5: events with biologics or continued folkloric events like we've talked

818
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 5: about through history, or are they consciousness based or something

819
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 5: completely different altogether. I think we need another overhaul of

820
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 5: our thinking. We deal with a false binary of reality, right,

821
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 5: real or true or false? Internal, external, psychic, physical. I

822
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 5: think that it's overdue for an overhaul. But I also

823
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 5: think we need to sort of redefine technology. Ayahuasca is

824
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 5: a technology. You know, hundreds of thousands of speed shoes

825
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 5: of vines in the Amazon River basin, and they just

826
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 5: happened to find the ones that work together where you

827
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 5: get an amo inhibitor that combines so that you can

828
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 5: actually make DMT orally active like that. That's a technology,

829
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 5: but we don't think of it that way because it

830
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 5: doesn't involve silica and microchips.

831
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 4: Right.

832
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 5: So that's the first part. I think that these things

833
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 5: can be all these things at once too, And I

834
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 5: know that sounds like a slippery Weasley answer, but let

835
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 5: me explain right quick. The first thing that I would

836
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 5: say is that the idea of a static afterlife is

837
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 5: mostly a modern Western sort of concept. If you look

838
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 5: at ancient Egypt or even ancient China, there was this

839
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 5: idea that you would go to the afterlife and like

840
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 5: the afterlife was capable of progress too. You know, you

841
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 5: had to get up and go to work, and you

842
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 5: could build machines and all sorts of stuff. There have

843
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 5: been illusions that UFOs are afterlife technology, technology built in

844
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 5: the afterlife to come over here. I know that sounds wild,

845
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 5: but this is more or less what Whitley Strieber talked

846
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 5: about with his implant and his eye. That it was

847
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 5: designed by Constantine Roudeve, who is an EDP expert who

848
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 5: had passed away route. They designed it in the afterlife

849
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 5: and somehow it wound up in Whitley's eye, Right, But do.

850
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 4: You think there's a physical world in the afterlife or

851
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 4: is it all etherical?

852
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 5: I think that that's a false starter of a question too, Like,

853
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 5: I'm not really sure that.

854
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 4: Do you criticize my questions all day long?

855
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 5: I'm kidding that Gus is the heart of that sort

856
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 5: of internal external thing, Like, I'm not sure really where

857
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 5: we draw that boundary to distinctly, right. So that's that's

858
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 5: one thing that I would say about this. But the

859
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 5: other thing that I would say too is that I'm

860
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 5: not denying that there's crash debris and there might even

861
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 5: be bodies, right, But I do think we need to

862
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 5: really sit back and interrogate the origins of those things. Right.

863
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 5: We're told that they don't originate on Earth, or if

864
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 5: they don't originate our solar system with this meta material,

865
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 5: but rarely does someone ever ask are they originating in

866
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 5: our reality? By which I mean, I think an argument

867
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 5: can be made that these things might be closer to

868
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 5: a ports from Poltergeist cases than they are crashed flying saucers.

869
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 5: I base that partially on the work of doctor Steve

870
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 5: Mira out of the UK. He did a study on

871
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 5: mugs that apported and disupported so then there was a

872
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 5: set of mugs that they had in a haunted house,

873
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 5: and they would vanish and then they would reappear. There

874
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 5: were molecular changes to the mug that had been taken

875
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 5: by the poultergeist and returned by the poltergeist. The salient

876
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 5: point there is that things that have come from another

877
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 5: place or been to that space come back changed at

878
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 5: the microscopic slash molecular level, which seems to be what

879
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 5: we're seeing a bit of with a ports.

880
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 4: You know.

881
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 5: I think that there's an argument to be made that

882
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 5: the ectoplasm that they used to see in seances back

883
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 5: in the nineteenth century looks a lot like the angel

884
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 5: hair that people used to find at flying saucer scigns. Right,

885
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 5: Both of them evaporated from sealed containers and were described

886
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 5: as wispy sometimes. So I think that this could come

887
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 5: from a lot of different places. And I'm circling back

888
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 5: around to that by saying that I think that whatever

889
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 5: this is is so strange that it challenges some basic

890
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 5: fundamental things that we assume, like, oh, is it ephemeral

891
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 5: or not ephemeral? I wonder if it doesn't reside in

892
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 5: something that looks a lot more like super position.

893
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 4: You know, dude, this is all so tough to deal

894
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 4: with because we're dealing with an unknown and we can't

895
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 4: even test it, we can't even repeat it. You know.

896
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, all of this just

897
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 4: speaks clearly to the idea that there is more to

898
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 4: our world than perhaps any of us realize, and we

899
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 4: need clear investigations with all the previous dogma attached. We're

900
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 4: out of time there, brother, but thank you so much

901
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 4: for coming on. I appreciate it.

902
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 5: Man. It was an absolute pleasure, and I'm looking forward

903
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 5: to seeing you a couple of months too soon.

904
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 4: It's gonna be great. Man. Hey, if you guys want

905
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 4: to find Joshua, he's at Joshua Cutchen dot com. You

906
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 4: can find me on Twitter and Instagram at CD Underscore

907
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 4: Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out contact intheesert dot com.

908
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 4: Stay open minded and rational as we explore the unknown

909
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 4: right here. Funny iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Caroinal

910
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 4: Podcast Network.

911
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

912
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: Ay and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out

913
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: all our shows on the iHeartRadio app. Or by going

914
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: to iHeartRadio dot com