1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,639 Speaker 1: So real quick before we get started, I just wanted 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: to give a quick shout out to all of our 3 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: listeners around the world, and I wanted to let y'all 4 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: know that I am spending most of my July in Portugal. 5 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: I've never been to Portugal before and I am beyond excited. 6 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: And I know we have listeners in Portugal. So if 7 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: you're listening in Portugal and you have a recommendation of 8 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: something I just have to know about or have to 9 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: check out while I'm there, please let me know. And 10 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: if you are a listener and you want to maybe 11 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: do an event or a live show or a meet 12 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: up while I'm in Portugal, please reach out and maybe 13 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: we can try to make it happen. There Are No 14 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart 15 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this is 16 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. So this week 17 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: we did the first part of our two part series 18 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: looking at the claim that Lena Dunham sexually abused her sibling. 19 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: Episode one was all about the claim, where it came 20 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: from and the cultural climate that fuelded. Next week we're 21 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: looking more into the contest and one of my main 22 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: reasons for wanting to talk about this issue is because 23 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: I think it really shows what happens when lies, misleading, 24 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: or inaccurate information is injected into conversations about what are 25 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: really serious issues. You know, we're not even really able 26 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: to have a real conversation about what actually happened because 27 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: it gets so muddled with the lies. And it's a problem. 28 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: And this all really reminded me of an episode we 29 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: did with Michael Hobbs, formerly of one of my favorite podcasts, 30 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: You're Wrong About All about how the topic of trafficking 31 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: has kind of suffered from the same thing. So let's 32 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: listen in you're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from 33 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. 34 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: Bad guys are coming. They're coming for you, and they're 35 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: coming for your kids. If you spend any time on 36 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: social media in the last few years, you've probably heard 37 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: some version of a story like that. Injers are waiting lurking, 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: generally in the parking lot or the aisles of a 39 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: big box store like Target, and they're hunting down women 40 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: and their children to snatch them up in broad daylight 41 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: for trafficking. This is not new at all. I definitely 42 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: grew up hearing horror stories like the one about the 43 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: woman driver terrified by a man tailgating or and flashing 44 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: her high beams at night, but he's actually just trying 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,119 Speaker 1: to warn her that a man is in her back 46 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: seat waiting to strike. Those stories definitely made a big 47 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: impression on me. But instead of them just being passed 48 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: around in home room, add in social media and stories 49 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: like this can spread to peak virality online. Stories like 50 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: these are especially common on social media. Just search the 51 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: hashtag sex, traffic and awareness on TikTok and you will 52 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: find thousands of women making videos about how traffickers tied 53 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: a ribbon or a zip tied to their car to 54 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: mark them as a victim, or how a van parked 55 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: too close to them in a parking lot and it 56 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: was a near miss for a trafficking attempt. The only 57 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: issue is this kind of trafficking, where someone is snatched 58 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: by a stranger in a public place, is exceedingly rare, 59 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: Yet videos like these often go viral and social media, 60 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: leading the impression that women should be afraid anytime they 61 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: leave their homes to go to the store. In this 62 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: two part episode, we'll explore the roots of online panics 63 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: around trafficking, why they're so dangerous, and here from two 64 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: people who are fighting back with facts. The podcast You're 65 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: Wrong About is kind of a gold standard for revisiting 66 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: moral panics and debunking the commonly held beliefs that led 67 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: to them. Hosts Michael Hobbs and Sarah Marshall have found 68 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 1: that in many ways, we're basically just doing a mad 69 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: Lives where the blank is filled with some kind of 70 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: boogeyman society can blame at times when people are feeling 71 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: anxious or scared, like the Satanic panic of the eighties 72 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: and nineties, where parents were horrified that satanic cults were 73 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: ritualistically abusing children, only that was never really happening. Basically, 74 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: there was always some big scary threat that we need 75 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: to be watching out for. My name's Michael Hobbs. I'm 76 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: the co host of a podcast called You're Wrong About 77 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: and another podcast called Maintenance Phase So Online. I find 78 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: that so many conversations about big, complex issues, things like 79 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: trafficking or homelessness, are really dominated by people who don't 80 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: really know what they're talking about and who were either 81 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: spreading bad information intentionally or unintentionally when you started making 82 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: you're wrong about where you all starting out to give 83 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: people the tools to push back against this kind of 84 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: bad information. No, like this, this was completely accidental. We 85 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: had no idea when we started that we would find 86 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: out that America keeps having the same moral panic over 87 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: and over again. This was not something that we thought. 88 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's all the same thing. It's like a 89 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: tide that comes in and out, you know, the Satanic 90 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: panic is always with us, q on is always with us. 91 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: We had no idea that we would come up with that. 92 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: It's just sort of we we research sort of debunk 93 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: able episodes in history, and when you start to bunking them, 94 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: you're like an hour or two into the research and 95 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, it's this one again. Oh, we're going 96 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: to do the thing where they're like strangers coming to 97 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: get your kids, right, or there's some societal out group, right, 98 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: like homeless people, like trans people, like sex offenders that 99 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: we don't like, and we're going to project this extreme 100 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: power onto them. We're going to project this extreme rapaciousness 101 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: onto them. There's millions of them, you know, they're coming 102 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: to the border, they're trying to steal your kids and 103 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: get them into street gangs. I mean, it's it's like 104 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: this mad libs where you can just throw in like okay, 105 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: which societal outgroup is it going to be? What are 106 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: they doing to our kids today? Like it's it's over 107 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: and over again the same thing. So we've both me 108 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: and my co host Sarah Marshall have become these like 109 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: accidental insufferable debunkers who were like, nope, same one. We're 110 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: doing this again, guys, Like, let's calm it down. We've 111 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: done this seven times before. So in my research around disinformation, 112 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: particularly like false panics, around things that are rooted in 113 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: people's identities. So whether it's trans folks, queer folks, you know, immigrants, 114 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: it is always sort of the same thing. Like I 115 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: feel right now we're seeing all of the legislations would 116 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: have meant to make you think as if trans children 117 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: are like running the world, Like children are totally and 118 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: there and and it's the same tropes, right, So they're 119 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: coming for your kids, They're recruiting your kids, Like this 120 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: is the same thing that Anita Bryant said about gay 121 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: people in the seventies and the nineteen eighties, Like we're 122 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: just running exactly the same playbook. Anita Bryant was a 123 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: singer and beauty queen who famously led the Save Our 124 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: Children campaign that attempted to save children by cracking down 125 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: on gay people having rights. And we're just mad living 126 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: in a new societal outgroup. So I mean, at the 127 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic, I read a bunch of books 128 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: about the Black Plague, just out of like more, just 129 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: out of like morbid curiosity. And you know what you 130 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: find in these old panics, you know, these times of 131 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: societal anxiety. You had some of the biggest pogroms against 132 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: Jews in Europe in history. Right, it was like, there's 133 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: this big thing we can't explain. There's all of these anxieties. 134 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: People are dying all around me. Who can we blame? Like, 135 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: we don't want to look at any existing societal structures. 136 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: We don't want to look at something that's just difficult 137 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: for us to explain. It's sort of out of our 138 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: scientific knowledge. So, uh, there's this group here that seems 139 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: sort of shifting, and we don't really like them. Let's 140 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: blame them and kill a bunch of them. It's like 141 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: these things are old, ancient human impulses, and they're very 142 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: difficult to see at the time, but zooming out a 143 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: little bit, you're like, oh no, this is just what 144 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: happens during times of anxiety, and isn't the perfect recipe 145 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: for a very anxious society a global pandemic. It's probably 146 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: not a coincidence that has COVID worsened. We saw more 147 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: and more content about Q and on and Save the Children, 148 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: purporting to save kids from some perceived danger lurking out 149 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: in the world. Why do you think right now the 150 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,239 Speaker 1: specific moment in politics and culture, why are we seeing 151 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: this pursurgence of panic around sex trafficking and trafficking view thing. 152 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to say exactly. I think you 153 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: know this this really hit its peak last summer, all 154 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: of this Q and on hashtag save the children stuff, 155 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: and it really seems like there was a moment where, 156 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, we're in the middle of a pandemic. Information 157 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: was all over the pace, right like, remember, we didn't 158 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: like are we wearing masks? Are we not wearing masks? 159 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: Some states are in lockdown, some states are aggressively not 160 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: in lockdown. It was just this time where nobody really 161 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: knew what was going on, And there's some research that 162 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: indicates that sort of at times when you're really angry, 163 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: you search for information that reinforces your worldview, and at 164 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: times when you're really anxious, you are more open to 165 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: information that doesn't reinforce your worldview. So all so, all summer, 166 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: everybody's inside, we're all on our phones, there's nothing else 167 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: to do, We're looking at the Internet, and all of 168 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: a sudden you have people whose minds are a little 169 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: bit more open to things like, well, maybe the real 170 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: danger to children isn't COVID. Maybe it's actually these you know, 171 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: white van driving traffickers who come from other countries and 172 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: they're going to kidnap my kids and take them abroad 173 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: or these these these narratives that just make no sense, right, 174 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: And you know, at the heart of it, the little 175 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: seed in the middle of it was this insane Q 176 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: and on stuff right where it's like a dren of 177 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: chrome and like Hillary Clinton is like cutting the faces 178 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: off a baby, like completely nuts stuff. But there's enough 179 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: sort of plausible deniability around that that you can very 180 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: easily say, well, I care about children, and so what's 181 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: the harm of sharing this little meme? Like what's the 182 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: harm of taking this little thing on Facebook that says, 183 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, infamously there was one that said that children 184 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: are thousands of times more likely to die of trafficking 185 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: than of COVID, and so it feels, you know, and 186 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: it was in like the the Instagram aesthetic right where 187 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: it's got like the little logo and it's in pink, 188 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: and it's very share able, and it's like, well, what's 189 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: the harm, Like I might as well share that, you know, 190 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: if it helps save a kid or two, then I'm 191 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: doing something good. And that's some sort of that's a 192 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: feeling of certainty in the world, right, But nobody thinks 193 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: about what it does to reinforce these just deranged myths 194 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: that aren't helping children, they're not helping non children, they're 195 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: not helping anybody. But it's it's easy to forget that 196 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: when you're like, well, what's the harm of sharing this? 197 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden these bananas memes start 198 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: just bouncing around the Internet for months. Yeah, I think 199 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: this out of listening to your wrong about with something 200 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: that really helped make that transition for me, because you know, 201 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: for a while, I'd like, well, if this person thinks 202 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: it's going to do some good to share this unstrewn 203 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: meme on their Facebook page about traffic and about child 204 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: Who is it hurting? Now? I've come to see that. Okay, Well, 205 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: if we over emphasize the risks of little kids being 206 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: like snatched up or things like that, what are we 207 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: under what are we under emphasizing you know, kids like 208 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: youth who are facing homelessness, youth who are are put 209 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: in precarious or you know, bad or dangerous situations, things 210 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: that are much more common. Like if we focus on 211 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: this big scary thing that isn't happening, all of the 212 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: things that actually are happening, we're just taking attention away 213 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: from that, right. And there's also this retributive aspect to 214 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: where a lot of those memes that went around we're 215 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: about sort of catching the pedophiles, catching the traffickers. You know, 216 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: we have to find the evil people and we have 217 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: to root them out of our society. And that's not 218 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: where the threats to children come from. The threats to 219 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: children are primarily in the family. A lot of it 220 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: is things like homelessness. There's a very few youth homeless 221 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: shelters in most cities in America, there's also a completely 222 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: broken foster care system. So when you look at things 223 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: like the sort of Missing and Exploited Child hotline, of 224 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: the calls are coming from foster care. So when we 225 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: talk about trafficking, we're mostly talking about runaways. We're mostly 226 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: talking about kids who are abused at home, abused in 227 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: foster care. They're queer, they're trans, they need a place 228 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: to stay, they don't need somebody else to go to 229 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: jail forever. And when we're sharing these means that are 230 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: sort of blaming all of these societal problems on these 231 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: societal others that we already don't like or a little 232 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: bit wary of. Anyway, all we're really doing is contributing 233 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: to these retributive solutions which do not make children safer. Yeah, 234 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: and I also think it does kind of come down 235 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: to what you were talking about before, this idea of 236 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: like wanting to catch the bad guys. That's so much 237 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: more exciting and fun. Then, Oh, we need to confront 238 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: some of these systemic ills in our society that allow 239 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: for already marginalized people of fault with the cracks. That's boring. 240 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: It's so much more fun to be like, yeah, I'm 241 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: gonna track down these bad guys. Listen a quick break. 242 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: They're back on Instagram. Video made by a mom influencer, 243 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: Katie Sorenson, where she said that two strangers tried to 244 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: kidnap her kids in a Michael's craft store in California, 245 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: got over two million views Monday of this week. My 246 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: children were the targets of attempted kidnap, which is such 247 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: a weird thing to even vocalize. Um, but it happened, um, 248 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: and I want to share that story with you in 249 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: an effort to raise awareness as to what signs to 250 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: look for and to just encourage parents to be more 251 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: aware of their surroundings and what is going on around them. 252 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: Sorenson said that she overheard the couple making comments about 253 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: her kid's appearance, and the man even tried to grab 254 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: at her child stroller. But when the couple saw their 255 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: picture being posted on saved the children forms online in 256 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: connection with an attempted kidnapping, they came forward to deny 257 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 1: any wrongdoing and cooperated with the police investigation. Grandparents themselves, 258 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: they said they had just been discussing their own grandkids, 259 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: not Sorensen's kids. Their daughter says Sorensen's allegations were racially 260 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: motivated because their parents are Latino. Police cleared the couple 261 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: of any wrongdoing and closed the case, and Sorensen says 262 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: that she shared her story just to warn other parents 263 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: to remain vigilant. But this is a great example of 264 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: why sharing stories just for awareness is not always a 265 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: helpful thing to do. It also over emphasizes the idea 266 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: that white kids are at risk for being kidnapped by 267 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: strangers from public places and affluent suburbs, which when it 268 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: comes to trafficking, is exceedingly rare, while de emphasizing that 269 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: the existing threats out there are much more likely to 270 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: be family members or trusted community members praying on vulnerable people, 271 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: and that those targeted are more often than not marginalized youth, 272 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: queer kids, or trans kids, or kids facing poverty or homelessness. 273 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: Like someone who's kidnapping children and taking them across state 274 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: lines and keeping them in motel rooms and forcing them 275 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: to have sex with people, which almost doesn't exist. I mean, 276 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: then the number of confirmed cases of that you can 277 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: almost count on one or two hands. It's extremely rare. 278 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: Kids are running away from home, they don't have a 279 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: place to stay. They don't feel safe where they're sleeping, 280 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: they end up sleeping on the streets. Somebody pulls up 281 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: in a car and says, I'll give you a place 282 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: to stay tonight if you have sex with me. Like 283 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: that is something. It's called survival sex. It is a 284 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: very well known phenomenon. It is a huge problem. And 285 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: the way that you solve it isn't by putting anybody 286 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: in jail. It's having a phone number for those kids 287 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: to call and a van comes and picks them up 288 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: and takes them somewhere safe. And we've known this forever 289 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: and we're not doing anything about it, and so that's 290 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: less meimable, that's less sort of satisfying to share online. 291 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: But it's like, we just need more places for kids 292 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: to go. Who needs somewhere to sleep? Like that's it, absolutely, 293 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: And I think you make a good point that the 294 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: people who are often targeted for this kind of thing 295 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: are queer kids, trans kids, youth of color, black youth. 296 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: And I think it's so interesting that if you spend 297 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: any time scrawled in TikTok, the people who are taking 298 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: up the most space in terms of talking about the 299 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: risk that trafficking poses are white women, you know, suburban 300 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: white women, And so I can't help but see this 301 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: real disconnect in terms of who is actually the target 302 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: and the actual person who is harmed by this and 303 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: the people who are talking about it and making the 304 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: most content about it. Ins but of like scaring people 305 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: about it. What what do you think is going on there? 306 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: I will just say for the record, no one is 307 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: doing zip ties on your car at target. No one 308 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: is hiding under your car to cut your ankle with 309 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: the razor blade. I mean, the minute you google, or 310 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: even like you don't even have to google, you just 311 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: have to think about these things. Does it make sense 312 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: to lie down underneath somebody's car for hours and wait 313 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: for them with like a razor blade in your hand 314 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: and then slice their achilles heel? Like that's not a 315 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: fun or smart thing to do for somebody who wants 316 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: to try to kill you, Right, So, all of these 317 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: kinds of stories, it's just it's very important to just say, 318 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: like on their face, stuff like this really doesn't happen 319 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: very much. We know that the primary risks to women 320 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: are from their partners and from their dad's And if 321 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: you're somebody younger. It's like a soccer coach or somebody 322 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: in power. Right, it's like a weird scout leader who's 323 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: asking you to stay over at his house the night 324 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: before one of these camping trips. Like these are these 325 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: are the threats to people and to children, and they're 326 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: mostly from people who have enough societal power that you 327 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: don't trust your gut. So one of the things you 328 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: find in a lot of these stories his parents will say, well, 329 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, we thought it was a little bit weird that, 330 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, the priest asked our son to sleep over, 331 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: but you know he's a priest. How could he ever, 332 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, how could he ever harm our son. He's like, 333 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: this felt weird to us, but you know he has 334 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: this sort of societally bestowed power that makes us not 335 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: trust our gut. Like this is what power does. And 336 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: so the thing that we need to look for our 337 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: places where we have power in society and we don't 338 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: have accountability, and we already have so much accountability, like 339 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to imply that, like there's no such 340 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: thing as somebody in a white van who's kidnapping kids whatever. 341 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: It It's much more common for someone to abuse the 342 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: trust of children and and especially abuse the trust of 343 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: marginalized children. Right, because if you don't feel safe at home, 344 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: you might turn to a soccer coach as somebody to 345 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: talk to, as somebody who feels safe, even though they aren't. Right, 346 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: this is the process of sort of making somebody unsafe 347 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: and physically threatening somebody often does come down to tricking 348 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 1: them and looking for these elements of marginalization that and 349 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: looking for these aspects of marginalization that make them easier 350 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: to trick. So at every level, it's the vulnerable kids. 351 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: It's finding the vulnerable kids and giving them actual safe 352 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: places to go and safe adults to actually talk to 353 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: about this stuff. So again boring, but like that's that's 354 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: not something that you can see and target, but it's 355 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: this is what society needs, and it's what we've needed 356 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: for decades. We're just not doing well. After a quick break, 357 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. When women make videos 358 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: on social media about them or their kids narrowly escaping 359 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: being hunted by would be traffickers, they often go viral. 360 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: That's because we've deemed it okay to talk about the 361 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: perceived threat of strangers or the other. But what about 362 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: when women talk about people they know of using their power, 363 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: people in their communities or in their own homes, even 364 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: though the actual threat is much more likely to be 365 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: someone you know, not a stranger in a van. Women 366 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 1: are not always supported when we speak up about it. 367 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: I do think as a society it's okay for women 368 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: and families to call out like, quote unquote bad guys 369 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: if they're scary monsters showing up in a van. But 370 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: if it's somebody that lives with, somebody in your family, 371 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: somebody in your church, somebody in your community, Like, we're 372 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: pretty uncomfortable with women, you know, calling out people in 373 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: those positions who abuse their power. But if somehow it's 374 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: like totally fine, if you're thinking of it is like 375 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: calling out a bad guy at a van. And that's 376 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: also that's another aspect of marginalization, right that if it's 377 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: a poor mother, maybe she's a single mom, maybe she's 378 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: working two jobs, and she doesn't see her kids that much, 379 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: and she goes to some authority and she says, you know, 380 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: I feel a little bit weird about this soccer coach. 381 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: People might not believe her. They're like, isn't she a 382 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: bad mother anyway? Right? So at every level. Marginalization makes 383 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: it so much harder to address these problems because that 384 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: just gives you know, the priest is going to have 385 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: a lot more credibility than the single mom who's not 386 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: home as much as she'd like to be. So at 387 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: every level, these are the things that we have to 388 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: address and setting up formal systems to investigate these things 389 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: and actual accountability mechanisms. So I keep saying I only 390 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: have one argument on the show, but like we just 391 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: need to do the boring stuff, Like I wish it 392 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 1: was more interesting than that. No, it's so true. And 393 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, you talk a little bit. You talked a 394 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: bit about like zip ties on your car and people 395 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: hiding under your car. Like what role do you think 396 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: that local media and also law enforcement has to play 397 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: in this because I I've read articles where on its 398 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: face it would appear that a police officer or somebody 399 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: in law enforcement has confirmed, yes, we saw this zip 400 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: gi on the cars and this is a trafficking thing. 401 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: But actually when you like dig dig, dig a little 402 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: deeper into it, you're like, Okay, this police officer is 403 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: confirming that this person called the police and they came 404 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: for this reason. But it's not actually, it's not actually 405 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: any proof that like this was tied to a trafficking attempt. 406 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: What world do you think that journalists and law enforcement 407 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: should play and making sure that these panics don't spin 408 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: out of control. If one of the ones I think 409 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: it was last summer maybe last fall, was these poor 410 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: people had their wedding and they had some flowers left 411 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: over from their wedding, and they thought it would be 412 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: cute to put them on people's car in a parking lot, 413 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: and then people came out to their cars and found 414 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: a flower and they freaked out there like it's traffickers. 415 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: I marked the traffickers after me, and these poor people 416 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: who are just trying to do something nice or like 417 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden sort of smeared as traffickers. And 418 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: what was amazing was the cops sort of like re 419 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: enforced this. It's like, oh, you know, we've we've had 420 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: threats recently of trafficking, and you know, we've we've heard 421 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: rumors of trafficking, and of course the local media reinforces 422 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: this too that you know, trafficking is a huge problem 423 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: in this area and it could happen to anyone, but 424 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: not in this particular case, and there's no sort of 425 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: attempt to debunk the meta myth here that people are 426 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: staking you out in parking lots to kidnap you. Like 427 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: that even even for like truly evil people, that doesn't 428 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: make that much sense. Parking lots are really really public, 429 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: and it's like broad daylight. And why would you leave 430 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: a flower to like communicate with the other traffickers, like 431 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: just text the other traffickers, Like it doesn't make any 432 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: sense on any level. But we get this weird credulity, 433 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: especially around this issue that you know, one of the 434 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: tenants of journalism is you're supposed to do sort of 435 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,719 Speaker 1: both sides. Right. We saw this for climate change for years, right, 436 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: Like there's the people that say the climate change is 437 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: real and then there's the whack jobs who say that 438 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: it's not. But we have to put both of them 439 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: on the air. Right. But then, weirdly, when it comes 440 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: to trafficking and these other stranger danger myths, there's no 441 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: need to speak to like actual sex workers whore like, 442 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: this is not how sex work works. There's no need 443 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: to talk to actual child advocates or social workers. There's 444 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: no need to talk to anybody who's skeptical of this. 445 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: It's just like, well, cops say, there's a bunch of 446 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: trafficking out there, so let's just tell people that. So 447 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: it's just really frustrating that there isn't the same level 448 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: of scrutiny and the same journalistic standards applied to these 449 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: kinds of stories that hits something like really deep within 450 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: us of like, oh, this is the danger I have 451 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: to worry about. Yeah, I think I hadn't even thought 452 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: about that. But it's a good point, and I part 453 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: of me wonders if it's a little bit of hesitation 454 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: because and I struggled with this as well. You don't 455 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: want to feel like you're invalidating somebody's experience, right, Like, 456 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: if somebody feels like like they were targeted or they 457 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: were like something sketchy was going on, I want people 458 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: to feel like that experience is okay to talk about. 459 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: But I also don't want someone to use that experience 460 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: to feel something that's just not true that's going to 461 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: a result in more harm. Right, And there's also there 462 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: are real cases of this opening. I mean, this is 463 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: one of the challenges with moral panics is that most 464 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: moral panics, they never come from nothing right, we had 465 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: this massive panic in the nineteen eighties and nineties about 466 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: quote unquote stranger danger that you know, kids were gonna 467 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: come and steal your kids, and like, there were some 468 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: truly horrific, awful, heartbreaking cases where this really did happen. 469 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: This is why, this is how we got all of 470 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: these you know, Jacob's Law and Megan's Law and all 471 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: these laws that are named after kids and things like 472 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: the Amber alerts. So there were real cases. But the 473 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: problems that these these very small number of truly heartbreaking, 474 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: true cases get expanded into this massive national problem that 475 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: we all need to be worried about, and it very 476 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: quickly becomes this thing of like, well, if it saves 477 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: one child, right, we can sacrifice our civil liberties. We 478 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: can incarceerate a bunch of people on sort of spurious 479 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: grounds if it saves one child and one thing, you know, 480 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: as somebody who is a urban cyclist and somebody who 481 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: takes like urban safety very seriously. This is not a 482 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: standard that we apply to the lives of children in 483 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: other contexts. Right, If you if you want to save 484 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: the life of one child, you crack down on guns. 485 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: Guns kill three thousand kids a year, cars kill six 486 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: thousand kids a year. Right, you could make the speed 487 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 1: limit in every single city fifteen miles an hour throughout 488 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: the country, and you would literally save the lives of 489 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: like kids, because most kids are killed by speeding cars. 490 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: But that's not a sacrifice that we're willing to make 491 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: because that's something that I would have to sacrifice. I 492 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: would have to I would have to drive slower. Whereas 493 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: whenever it comes to these you know, if it saves 494 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: a life of one child, these kinds of sacrifices, it's 495 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: always somebody else who's going to make the sacrifice. It's 496 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: somebody else who's gonna go to jail. That the effects 497 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: of this are going to be inflicted on a societal outgroup. 498 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: So this this entire logic of like, you know, we 499 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: must do this to save one child. That's great logic, 500 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: but it's not a logic that we apply to any 501 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: other social problem. That's so true, And I think, yeah, 502 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: I think the idea that the people who are going 503 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: to be further criminalized harmed by this by when we 504 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: make laws, you know, kind of quickly, as long as 505 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 1: it's not like me feeling that repercussion, you know, as 506 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: long as someone else dealing with it, I think that 507 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: we're much more comfortable with that. What can we do 508 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: to avoid falling into moral panics, even ones that are 509 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: like well intentioned? You know, how can we avoid this 510 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: on a on a wider scale. I mean, I want 511 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: to say, like, be careful with what you share, but 512 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: like I'm not all that careful with what I share. Like, 513 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of information out there, it's really hard 514 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: like people, you know, we shouldn't all be having to 515 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: read the nutrition label on every single piece of information. 516 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: I will say, just on these kinds of things, it's 517 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: it's never strangers. It's never like these kinds of mono myths. 518 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: Anything that looks like the sort of remember the flashing 519 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: your high beams gang initiation stuff, Those are totally bunk. 520 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: Anything involving like random targeting of civilians, it's that really 521 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: never happens. Anything the stranger is kidnapping you in broad daylight. 522 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: I think there's like certain categories of anecdotes that are 523 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: just like these ones never turn out to be true, 524 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: so we should just stop sharing them. Like, don't don't 525 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: feel like you have to warn people about anything involving 526 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: a parking lot if a parking lot is involved, people 527 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: are safe. I mean they're all like videotaped at this 528 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: point exactly like people are safe and parking lots just 529 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: like leave the parking lots alone. It's fine. It's so 530 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: funny because I went back and listened to the episode 531 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: that y'all did about sex trafficking and the list of 532 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: things that they tell young people to look out for 533 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: that could be signs of trafficking. Things like if somebody 534 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: is moody, or if somebody all of a sudden starts 535 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: dressing different or wearing different clothes, or if they get 536 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: a bar code tattoo as somebody who grew up kind 537 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: of you know, gothy goth adjacent, ALTI adjacent. I know 538 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: two different people who had bar code tattoos. Right, All 539 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: of the warning signs of trafficking are like teenage stuff. 540 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, she's moody, or like, like her taste 541 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: in music changes. You're like, that's not a sign of trafficking, 542 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: that's a sign of teenager nous. That's a sign a 543 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: sign of adolessis Yeah. So another I mean another like 544 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: rule of thumb that just don't share anything involving trafficking basically, like, 545 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: I think this, this word, this whole field is so 546 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: tainted at this point that it's just not useful to 547 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: share any of the viral post statistics like until we 548 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 1: know more, just like hold off on the trafficking stuff. Gang. Yeah, 549 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: that's that's great advice. I would also say, like, not 550 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: that I think that any celebrities listen to this, listen 551 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: to my podcast, but when well meeting celebrities get involved 552 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: in a trafficking campaign, shut it down right, Like, I'm 553 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: sure you're a good guy, don't use you, don't. It 554 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: sets me when I see celebrities who I'm sure like 555 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: their hardest in the right place, but like getting involved 556 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: in trafficking campaigns that are tied to specific legislation like 557 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: Sesta Fosta, It's like, oh, like it just does such 558 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: a bad look on such a complicated issue. Yeah. I 559 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: think the biggest thing is that, you know, the trafficking 560 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: field right now is this weird, unholy alliance between very 561 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: well meaning celebrities and anything well meaning people and not 562 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: well meaning, mostly Republican legislatures who want to use this 563 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: as an excuse to crackdown on immigration, to crack down 564 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: on sex work to crack down on children anything that 565 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: they perceive as posing a threat to children, which is 566 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: mostly like trans people. So I think any time we 567 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: have any bills being pushed by these super Republican legislators, 568 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: I think, just like be careful with that stuff. Like 569 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: any time you have the religious right and the Republican 570 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: Party pushing one of these bills, like just slow down 571 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: and like ask actual sex workers, like what is in 572 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: this bill and are you in support of it? Like 573 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: over and over again, we end up talking over the 574 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: groups that actually get affected by this and just like, know, 575 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: some sex workers follow a bunch of sex workers online 576 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: and see what they're mad about, and like they are 577 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: not mad about this kind of stuff. They're mad about 578 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: the legislators that are trying to take their rights away. Again, 579 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: there is so much to say about how we talk 580 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: about trafficking online, especially on TikTok, where so many viral 581 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: claims about trafficking take off. Next we'll hear from Jessica, 582 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: who goes by blood Bath and Beyond on TikTok about 583 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: her use of TikTok to spread accurate information about trafficking. 584 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,239 Speaker 1: When we start drowning out that conversation we're We're not 585 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: only are we not letting that get the spotlight where 586 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: it really needs to be the forefront of this conversation, 587 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: we're also hurting the actual victims directly themselves because we're 588 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: creating this idea and this culture around what trafficking looks 589 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: like and what the average victim looks like. So when 590 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: a victim comes forward and says I think I was 591 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: sex trafficked or I need help, people are less inclined 592 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: to believe them because we've created this narrative that most 593 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: trafficking victims are innocent, upper middle class white women getting 594 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: kdnapped from target. If you enjoyed this podcast, please help 595 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting 596 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: thing in tech, or just want to say hi, We'd 597 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: love to hear from you at Hello at tango dot com. 598 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: Dis Informed is brought to you by There Are No 599 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I Heart 600 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: Radio and Unbossed. Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. 601 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: Toy Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Amatto 602 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod For 603 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: more great podcasts check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, 604 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.