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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hey Kate, Hey Paul, how are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing good.

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Speaker 2: You know I have been anxiously awaiting the information for

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Speaker 2: the second part of this case.

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Speaker 1: Yep, no small talk. Don't even try to interject with

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Speaker 1: some fun korra story. I don't have the time for it.

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Speaker 1: We have to jump right into the second half of

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Speaker 1: the Manhattan Well case, and let me summarize just at

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Speaker 1: the very top, what's happening here. We have six people

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Speaker 1: living in a boarding house, including Elma Sands and Levi Weeks,

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Speaker 1: and Elma believes they're engaged, and she tells other borders

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Speaker 1: that Levi has not admitted to being engaged to anyone,

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Speaker 1: let alone Elma, and Alma indicates that she and Levi

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Speaker 1: are going to Elope. On December twenty second, seventeen ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: they're in Manhattan and she and Levi, we believe, are

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Speaker 1: heard leaving the boarding house around eight o'clock that night,

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Speaker 1: and they vanish and Levi comes back a couple hours later.

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Speaker 1: He's alone. He seems distraught, he feels like he's drowning

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Speaker 1: in debt, and he's sang some inconsistencies with his fiance,

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Speaker 1: who is now missing, and some of the inconsistencies are

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Speaker 1: that she is even his fiance to begin with. And

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Speaker 1: the landlady is very suspicious of Levi. Some boys a

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Speaker 1: couple of days later found a muff that was borrowed

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Speaker 1: from a neighbor by Elma in a well, and this

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Speaker 1: is not very far from the boarding house. A few

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Speaker 1: days after that, her body is discovered. Elma's body is

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Speaker 1: discovered inside the well. There are many many injuries. In

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Speaker 1: the last episode, You and I talked about what could

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Speaker 1: be responsible for those injuries, whether they were from a

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Speaker 1: violent altercation with an offender or whether they were just

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Speaker 1: sort of byproducts of floating in a well for eleven days,

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Speaker 1: banging up against very rough walls. Now we've had a funeral,

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Speaker 1: ners of sorts, and lots of people coming by the

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Speaker 1: boarding house and viewing this poor woman's body. Now Levi

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Speaker 1: Weeks is under arrest, and this begins a courtroom proceeding

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Speaker 1: like no other of this time period because it involves

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Speaker 1: two of the biggest players in the eighteenth century. Alexander

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Speaker 1: Hamilton and Aaron Burr both defend Levi Weeks.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, those are names I recognize.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what you know about Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr?

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Speaker 1: Do you know very much? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're going to put me on the spot about

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Speaker 2: my history knowledge.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't Alexander Hamilton one of the signataries to the Declaration

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Speaker 2: of Independence?

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Speaker 1: He was very good?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 1: And what about Aaron Burr?

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Speaker 2: Any ideas Aaron Burr didn't he get into a duel

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Speaker 2: with somebody that.

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Speaker 1: Would be Alexander Hamilton?

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Speaker 3: It okay.

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Speaker 2: I was about to put that out there, but I thought, no,

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Speaker 2: that's too obvious.

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Speaker 1: You did, Yeah, just to simplify it. These two guys

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Speaker 1: a few years later, five years later would end up

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Speaker 1: in a duel and Arenberr will end up killing Alexander Hamilton.

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Speaker 1: They were both attorneys. They really disliked each other on

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Speaker 1: many different levels. Inexplicably, they are working on this case

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Speaker 1: and it's because of Ezra Weeks, who is the very

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Speaker 1: well known architect, who is the brother of Levi Weeks,

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Speaker 1: who is much less well known until he becomes accused

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Speaker 1: of a very high profile murder. Levi is under arrest

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Speaker 1: and the defense and the prosecutors start putting together their cases.

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Speaker 1: I'll remind you that the public is in an uproar

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Speaker 1: over this, and when he walks into the courtroom, Levi

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Speaker 1: Weeks is met with screams of crucify him. And this

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Speaker 1: is a historic trial. It takes place in the first

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Speaker 1: couple of months of eighteen hundred, the year eighteen hundred,

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Speaker 1: and it stretched two days, which is unheard of. As

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Speaker 1: we talked about before, usually these were pretty quick and dirty.

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Speaker 1: You're guilty or you having some money, Okay, you're innocent, and.

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Speaker 2: That was it.

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Speaker 1: So this was pretty remarkable. The trial starts on March thirty, first,

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundred, so listen to this. There are seventy five witnesses.

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Speaker 1: This is why it took two days. I'm sure seventy

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Speaker 1: five witnesses. Fifty one of them come from the defense.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so two day trial, seventy five witnesses, yep.

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Speaker 3: These witnesses are not on the stand very long.

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Speaker 1: And theype could have met for you know, twenty hours

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Speaker 1: a day. We don't know. But this was a fast

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Speaker 1: and a very slow trial I think at the same time. Okay.

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Speaker 1: The prosecutor in this case was a guy named Cadwallader

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Speaker 1: David Colden, and he would become Mayor of New York eventually,

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Speaker 1: and of course he went to the House of Representatives

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Speaker 1: like many people, like what I would have expected, so

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Speaker 1: he was making the political circuit. And let me just

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Speaker 1: lay out both sides of the cases, because this is

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Speaker 1: where we have to start determining what happened with the

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Speaker 1: injuries that they found on Elma. There were witnesses who

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Speaker 1: took the stand for the prosecutor that said they heard

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Speaker 1: the voice of a female crying murder and intreating for

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Speaker 1: mercy from the direction of the well between eight o'clock

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Speaker 1: and nine o'clock that night. And we know from Catherine

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Speaker 1: that the clock struck eight pm and Elma and we

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Speaker 1: presume Levi went out the door. So this fits into

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Speaker 1: this timeframe, and you've got around this time frame near

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Speaker 1: the well the voice of a woman calling out murder. Now,

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Speaker 1: how do they know this if this is a very

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Speaker 1: remote area. I know from that photo or that drawing,

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Speaker 1: we saw that there were some houses around, But I

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Speaker 1: guess can you hear that for half a mile away?

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Speaker 1: If somebody screaming bloody murder?

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Speaker 3: Literally, well, voices can most certainly carry.

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Speaker 2: But I'm also thinking about the construction of these houses

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Speaker 2: back then. Yeah, you know it's going to be different.

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Speaker 2: Maybe thicker walls, but the windows would be thinner. Maybe

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Speaker 2: sound could be passed from the outside to the inside

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Speaker 2: easier than what we see with some of the modern construction,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I am not really surprised by that.

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Speaker 1: So what else witnesses are saying. They say that they

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Speaker 1: saw Elma in the company of two men just a

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Speaker 1: few hundred yards from her house that night. Two men.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you this, because this is cultural context.

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Speaker 1: This is why we learn a little bit about history.

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Speaker 1: Witnesses claimed to have seen a woman they couldn't identify

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Speaker 1: whether it was Elma or not. A woman with two

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Speaker 1: men again, Tumen in a single horse sleigh. Okay, remember

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Speaker 1: what James Lynch said he saw tracks. We don't know

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Speaker 1: if that was meaningful or not. This is the part

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Speaker 1: that I do know is meaningful. The single horse sleigh

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Speaker 1: was drawn by a horse that was not wearing bells.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that would be a big deal

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Speaker 1: in seventeen ninety nine.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm making a guess here, but I would imagine that.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously, the bells are an audible signal, probably

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Speaker 2: for safety purposes as they're being drawn along a pathway,

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Speaker 2: a walking path, et cetera, with pedestrians or other horse

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Speaker 2: drawn carriages. The lack of bells sounds like it would

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Speaker 2: have been unusual. So now whoever has this horse drawn

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Speaker 2: sleigh has gone into stealth mode.

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Speaker 3: You know. It's sort of like turning your headlights off today.

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Speaker 1: I literally say that. So it's like turning your headlights off.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. You would have had a collision at

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Speaker 1: night with no bells, And I thought that was so interesting.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons why I love history. I

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Speaker 1: never thought about that, Like when I take my kids

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Speaker 1: of Colorado and we're in horse drawn sleighs and you

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Speaker 1: hear the bells and I was like, oh, this it's

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Speaker 1: so pretty. It wasn't pretty. It was practical, is what

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Speaker 1: it was supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's just like when I go mountain biking, I

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Speaker 2: have a bell on my bike, and that's you know,

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Speaker 2: known as a bear bell, you know, with the hope

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Speaker 2: that you know, if you're a hiker or a mountain biker,

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Speaker 2: bears go nop. I we're going to move away from

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Speaker 2: this path. But it really is for the pedestrians that

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Speaker 2: I can't see around the corner, they can hear me coming,

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Speaker 2: and I would imagine the same thing is going on

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Speaker 2: with these horse bells.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how they don't cancel each other out though,

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Speaker 1: I mean all these bells, there's no street lights, there's

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Speaker 1: no signals or anything. I just don't wonder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you get too many bells going on, you have

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Speaker 2: no idea where they're coming from.

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Speaker 1: Well, whoever was driving this particular one horse sleigh, remove

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Speaker 1: the bells. You're right stealth mode now. Witnesses are also

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Speaker 1: claiming they've seen a dark colored horse, which I mean

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Speaker 1: throw a rock in New York. I'm sure they're all

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Speaker 1: over the place. Dark colored horse galloping on Broadway at

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Speaker 1: full speed, no bells, carrying three people in a sleigh

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Speaker 1: between eight o'clock and nine o'clock. Now that seems suspicious

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Speaker 1: and sort of fits in with our timeline. What do

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Speaker 1: you think about those details?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is not going how I expect it. This

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Speaker 2: is definitely a little bit of a twist. I was

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Speaker 2: expecting witnesses to see a man and a woman by

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Speaker 2: the well and the women being put in the well.

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Speaker 2: If not, you know, kill ahead of time. Now you

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Speaker 2: have witnesses saying that a horse drawn carriage without bells,

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Speaker 2: with two men and assuming a woman Elma. It sounds

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Speaker 2: like LEVI potentially arranged to have a co conspirator arrange

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Speaker 2: to meet up for some reason, and obviously not a

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Speaker 2: good reason as far as Elma's concerned. Yeah, well, my

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Speaker 2: mind is.

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Speaker 3: Going right now.

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Speaker 2: Is the owner of this horse drawn carriage? Is this

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Speaker 2: just a driver of this carriage or is this the

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Speaker 2: actual owner? And what are the financial means back in

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Speaker 2: the day for somebody to actually own something like this?

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Speaker 2: Does this give me information as to who the second

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Speaker 2: person possibly is?

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Speaker 1: There is an idea of who the second person is.

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Speaker 1: But this is unreliable. So now we're getting into what

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Speaker 1: witnesses actually add to a murder trial. There's a woman

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Speaker 1: named Susannah Broad. She is the neighbor of Ezra Weeks,

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Speaker 1: Levi's brother. She said under oath that around eight o'clock

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Speaker 1: that night, the gate opened and a carriage or sleigh

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Speaker 1: came out of the yard, made a rumbling noise, had

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Speaker 1: no bells, and that it was gone long before it

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Speaker 1: returned again. Now here's the problem with Susannah Broad. She

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Speaker 1: knows the time of night because she noticed it on

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Speaker 1: the clock. She does not know the specific day that

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Speaker 1: this sleigh with no bells left Ezra Weeks's property. So

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Speaker 1: is this just crap? I mean, is this not good testimony?

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Speaker 1: This is implicating Ezra Weeks potentially in something when he

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Speaker 1: might not have had anything to do with anything with

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Speaker 1: his brother.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I wouldn't call it just crap. But

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Speaker 2: in part because this carriage doesn't have any bells on it,

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Speaker 2: that is a detail that sounds like it's unique.

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Speaker 3: Enough that you make note of it.

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Speaker 2: But you have to as an investigator, you have to

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Speaker 2: drill down on all that information. You don't see if

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Speaker 2: you can tighten that statement up by talking to other witnesses,

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Speaker 2: by going to Ezra's house, talking to him, talking to

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Speaker 2: I don't know if he had servants or he had

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Speaker 2: other type of help within the house itself, verify that

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Speaker 2: he actually has this type of horse and carriage that

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Speaker 2: matches the description. There's a lot of legwork that should

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Speaker 2: be done versus just relying upon that particular witness statement.

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Speaker 1: It does impune his character a little bit to even

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Speaker 1: bring this up without knowing one hundred percent what the

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Speaker 1: day was. It's pretty it seems dangerous to me. I

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Speaker 1: get the impression from this trial that the prosecutor is

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Speaker 1: really throwing a lot of wet spaghetti at the refrigerator

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Speaker 1: and seeing what sticks. Because this is a circumstantial case.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think just going into this, does this sound

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Speaker 1: circumstantial to you? There's no real hard evidence against Levi Weeks.

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Speaker 2: No, Well, at this point in time, you know everything

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Speaker 2: that you're telling me would be information that is being

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Speaker 2: compiled early on in investigation, and this is where you start.

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Speaker 3: Building a case.

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Speaker 2: But none of this is rising to the level of

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Speaker 2: what I would consider probable cause, Where now you feel

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Speaker 2: that you can put Levi under arrest for Elma's homicide

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Speaker 2: and charge him with murder. There needs to be so

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Speaker 2: much more meat on this bone before you move forward

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Speaker 2: to trial. And I'm hearing these types of statements being

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Speaker 2: presented in court at a trial that lasted two days

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Speaker 2: with seventy five witnesses. Yeah, it does sound like the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor is just like boom, I'm just throwing all of

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Speaker 2: this out here, and hopefully it sticks enough to where

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Speaker 2: I can get a conviction. But hopefully there's some witnesses

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Speaker 2: that are now going to be able to show that

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Speaker 2: they did the leg work in order to be able

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Speaker 2: to flesh this case out and make it more compelling

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Speaker 2: against Levi.

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Speaker 3: Levi is a suspect for sure.

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Speaker 2: But is he somebody that I would say there's enough

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Speaker 2: against him with what you've told me that he should

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Speaker 2: be a defendant.

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Speaker 3: Not yet.

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Speaker 1: Well, the prosecutor is trying to build also a case

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Speaker 1: that Levi is not a trustful person. They put a

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Speaker 1: witness on named William Anderson, who is Levi's apprentice as

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Speaker 1: a builder, and he shares a room with him at

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Speaker 1: the boarding house, and he testifies that Levi once told

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Speaker 1: him that he was with Elma not for courtship or

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Speaker 1: for dishonor you know, sleeping with her, but for conversation.

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Speaker 1: So he is presenting this to William Anderson as a

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Speaker 1: friendship only. But William says on multiple occasions he saw

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Speaker 1: Levi leave their room for the entire night, and he

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Speaker 1: presumed it was to go down to Elma's room and

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Speaker 1: sleep with her. Okay, this goes into my heartbalm thing.

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Speaker 1: This goes into he has made a promise to her,

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Speaker 1: probably that they were going to get married, and they

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Speaker 1: were having sex, and if he tries to back out, boys,

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Speaker 1: she would have just had a fit. There's no way

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Speaker 1: around that for sure.

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Speaker 3: No, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And then this is where I think I mentioned it

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Speaker 2: during the first part of this series, is where's the

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Speaker 2: deep pockets in this? Well, it's Ezra, you know, so

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Speaker 2: it does she recognize that? And I don't know what

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Speaker 2: the legal process would be back then in terms of

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Speaker 2: could she also sue Ezra, you know, and possibly gain

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Speaker 2: access to those deep pockets to benefit her even more

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Speaker 2: than just going after Levi. And now this is where

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Speaker 2: the two brothers conspire, which you know right now, you know,

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Speaker 2: at least with the information it's like, Okay, there's there's

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Speaker 2: possibly something along those lines. It is that do we

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Speaker 2: have a case built against both Levi and Ezra at

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Speaker 2: this point right now?

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Speaker 3: We don't. It's just there's some leads there that need

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Speaker 3: follow up.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a vague statement for you from James Lint,

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Speaker 1: who is the man who helped kind of excavate her

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Speaker 1: body from this well. He's the one who gave us

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Speaker 1: all the detail about the petticoat and cratches and on

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Speaker 1: and on. He's a lay person. He says that Levi

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Speaker 1: seemed to know that Elma's body was found in a

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Speaker 1: well before it became public knowledge. This is a vague statement.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't give more details than that. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: BS to me. I mean, Levi could have found out

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Speaker 1: from a word amount. I mean, there's so many other

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Speaker 1: ways that he could have found out. But this is

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Speaker 1: the kind of person that the district Attorney's putting on

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Speaker 1: the stand right now to impune Levi's character, which I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying doesn't need to be impugned. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: from a legal standpoint, this all is very squishy to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I imagine the defense is objecting

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Speaker 2: to some of these witness statements, whether it be hearsay,

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Speaker 2: whether it be speculative. So it'd be interesting to see

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Speaker 2: this actually unfault. I think you opened up this case

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Speaker 2: by saying this was the first case in which there

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Speaker 2: were trial transcripts done, right.

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Speaker 1: This is the very first trial documented by court clerks,

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Speaker 1: so they are summarizing the proceedings. It's not like stenography. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it would have been a really big deal because it

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Speaker 1: would have been cemented in public record all the way

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Speaker 1: through now where I could access it if I wanted to.

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Speaker 1: So it was a big deal to have this trial

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Speaker 1: and the summary and the summary of what the witnesses

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Speaker 1: said in print, you know, an official document. It had

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Speaker 1: never been done before.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and just you know sort of the trial strategy

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Speaker 2: and the decisions being made by the judge. Is the

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Speaker 2: defense objecting to some of the stuff that the prosecution

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Speaker 2: is doing. Is that laying illegal foundations for possibly an

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Speaker 2: appeal down the road, you know, So that would be

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Speaker 2: something that would be interesting, especially you know some I know,

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Speaker 2: some of our listeners are you know, attorneys, both prosecutors

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Speaker 2: as well as on the defense side, you know, getting

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Speaker 2: their expert thoughts, you know, if they were to review,

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Speaker 2: you know, how this trial proceeded. Do they feel that

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor is building a sufficient case.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to reveal something. I normally don't like

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Speaker 1: to show my cards too early, but I'm going to

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Speaker 1: reveal something because then we're going to talk about medical evidence,

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Speaker 1: and I need you to think in these terms. The

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Speaker 1: defense is going to say that Elma's injuries were not

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Speaker 1: consistent with murder. They were consistent with the decomposition in

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Speaker 1: the water. So you know, of our body, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: a homicide. And they're gonna say that she might have

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Speaker 1: died by suicide. Just think about that. Don't comment on

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Speaker 1: that yet, because now we've got two quote unquote experts.

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Speaker 1: The state is putting on two medical experts. These are

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Speaker 1: not men who examined her in a controlled setting. These

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Speaker 1: are men who looked at her and probably picked around

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Speaker 1: at her during that viewing outside of Catherine's boarding house.

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Speaker 1: So this was not an autopsy. This was an observation

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Speaker 1: by two medical experts, one of whom is a dentist,

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Speaker 1: which the defense said, bullshit, we don't want I gotta

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Speaker 1: put a dentist on the stand. But I want you

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Speaker 1: to hear what the dentists. I know you're going to say.

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Speaker 1: This is not a blah blah and not a blah blah.

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Speaker 1: But let me tell you what the dentist said, because

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Speaker 1: maybe it gives you a little bit more information on

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Speaker 1: what the condition of her body was. He said, I

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Speaker 1: had but a superficial view of her body. However, as

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Speaker 1: it lay in the coffin, exposed to the view of thousands,

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Speaker 1: I examined such parts as were come at able. I'

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Speaker 1: love that phrase come atible, which is like pretty much

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Speaker 1: whatever I could access just by peering down at her,

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Speaker 1: such as her head and her neck and her breasts.

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Speaker 1: I discovered several bruises and scratches, particularly a bruise upon

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Speaker 1: the forehead and the chin, and upon the left breast

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Speaker 1: or near it. I think that the mark upon the

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Speaker 1: neck had the appearance of a compression, but not by

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Speaker 1: a rope or a handkerchief. It was suggested by a

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Speaker 1: number of people that the neck was broken, and I

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Speaker 1: examined it and discovered it was not. So you're right

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Speaker 1: about that, Paul. Those spots on the neck were reddish

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Speaker 1: black spots. There were several small spots which might have

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Speaker 1: passed unnoticed by a common observer. The appearance upon the

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Speaker 1: breast was about as large as the circumference of a

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Speaker 1: dollar coin dollar, and it was a small bruise, but

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Speaker 1: it was more difficult to examine than the other. There

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Speaker 1: were a number of women present, and the prosecutor said,

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Speaker 1: was the compression of which you spoke of around her

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Speaker 1: neck such as it might have been made by a hand?

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Speaker 1: And he said, yes it was, And now that is

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Speaker 1: still my impression. So he's saying she was strangled? Can

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Speaker 1: you tell that eleven days in a well? Do you

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Speaker 1: think you would be able to tell that? Wouldn't the

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Speaker 1: skin be slothing by then?

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Speaker 2: Well, not necessarily. Again, you know, this is very cold water,

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Speaker 2: so you know she's going to be a little bit

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Speaker 2: better preserved than if it were in.

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Speaker 3: A warmer environment. You know, one of the interesting phenomena

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Speaker 3: that occurs with a body, whether a living body or

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Speaker 3: even a deceased body, is that sometimes this bruising can

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Speaker 3: become more prominent as time goes on. Okay, and with

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Speaker 3: with a living person, the bruising, of course is undergoing

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Speaker 3: a healing process and change as colors, but it can

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Speaker 3: after an injury occurs there may be like a slight

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Speaker 3: redness in the area, maybe it's a slight swelling, but

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Speaker 3: then the bruise forms and it's that traditional, very dark

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Speaker 3: bruise that anybody can associate with. And then as this

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Speaker 3: living person heals in that area, that bruise changes colors,

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Speaker 3: and so a very well trained pathologist is able to

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Speaker 3: kind of take a look at the color of the

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Speaker 3: bruising and give an estimate in terms of this is

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Speaker 3: this a fresh bruise or this is a bruise that

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Speaker 3: is so many days old. With a deceased individual, you

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Speaker 3: don't have the healing process, but sometimes you get some

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Speaker 3: of these these injuries becoming more pronounced as time goes on.

401
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Speaker 3: So if there was manual strangulation in this case, then

402
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Speaker 3: maybe some of the marks around her neck became more

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Speaker 3: pronounced by the time that her body was recovered. I'm

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Speaker 3: having a major major issue putting any reliance upon this

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Speaker 3: dentist who right now, I don't know what his medical

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Speaker 3: training is, what his experience and expertise is in terms

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Speaker 3: of dealing with deceased individuals and looking at injuries off

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Speaker 3: of deceased bodies. As far as I'm concerned, he's a layperson, right,

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Speaker 3: and lay people when they first see deceased bodies, they

410
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Speaker 3: often misinterpret what they are looking at. The location of

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Speaker 3: this mark on her neck, of course, is interesting, but

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Speaker 3: no way, shape or form would I put any relevance

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Speaker 3: to it unless there is an actual dissection of that

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Speaker 3: neck showing that, Yes, you have hemorrhaging to what we

415
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Speaker 3: call the strap muscles, you have the hyoid bone broken,

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Speaker 3: there's a cartilage within the neck that's been crushed due

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Speaker 3: to the compression. There's PATIKII, there's all these other diagnostic

418
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Speaker 3: features that a pathologist uses. It's so easy to see.

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Speaker 2: Somebody who maybe has a mark on their neck and

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Speaker 2: then misinterpret that as being that's her cause of death.

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Speaker 2: It was due to strangulation. She died somehow, right, But

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Speaker 2: was it strangulation? Was it drowning?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I hate to tell you one more vague thing,

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Speaker 1: but I will say that that dentist's testimony was and

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Speaker 1: his belief that she was strangled was corroborated by a

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Speaker 1: man who Now that I'm reading this little detail, I

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Speaker 1: realize I know exactly who he is. His name is

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Speaker 1: doctor David Hoseak, and he was one of the most

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Speaker 1: well known physicians in America. He was very well respected

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Speaker 1: and actually ironically he would treat Alexander Hamilton after Aaron

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Speaker 1: Burrer killed him. Oh, he would try to save his life.

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Speaker 1: So David Hoseak, he would know exactly what was happening

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Speaker 1: with all of this. Now, I mean as a forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologists know. Is he a resident at Columbia University and

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Speaker 1: one of the most well known physicians in the country. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he says he agrees with Skinner that Elma's wounds seem

437
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: to be caused by strangulation of the human hands, But

438
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: there's no details about why he says that.

439
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 2: And this is where when you start dealing with again

440
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: a deceased body that's undergone decomposition in this kind of

441
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: a cool environment. There's a reason why today we have

442
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 2: forensic pathologists. They gain expertise in terms of looking at

443
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 2: so many deceased bodies and all the wounds and all.

444
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: The training that they've got.

445
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 2: Even though this physician is a very noted medical physician,

446
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: doesn't mean he has the expertise to draw a really

447
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 2: good conclusion that I would rely upon. There are times

448
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 2: where you know, we will have victims end up in

449
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 2: emergency rooms and the treating physician will form certain opinions

450
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: as to what happened, and it can be completely wrong

451
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: once a pathologists trained forensic pathologist is now taking a

452
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: look at the victim who has subsequently died. You know,

453
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: So just because somebody has medical training doesn't mean that

454
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: they have sufficient expertise to draw this conclusion, especially at

455
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 2: a viewing where they are just kind of poking on

456
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: this body while she's laying there. So they may be right.

457
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that they're not right. It's just do

458
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 2: I put a lot of veracity on their opinions?

459
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 3: I do not.

460
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: Well, even then, if you've got doctor Hosak in a

461
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: good environment doing an autopsy, that's one thing. But yet

462
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: again he's on the street with thousands of other people,

463
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: and he's looking down and he's able to probably pull

464
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: open her shirt and look at different things. But it's

465
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: the same situation as with a dentist. It's not a

466
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: real situation where he can do an actual examination, and

467
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: that's again a problem.

468
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: Very true.

469
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: And then, of course, if you're a bystander watching this

470
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 2: man starting to open up this woman's.

471
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: Glouse or whatever she had on while.

472
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 2: She's laying in state. You've got to be thinking, what's

473
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 2: the strange guy doing.

474
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: I'm getting ready to launch into a book that's set

475
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: in the early eighteen hundreds, and it was the women

476
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: who were absolutely in charge of dressing another woman for

477
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: her funeral. It would not have been men. And in

478
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: the case that I'm working on for a new book,

479
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: it was the women who noticed that this could have

480
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: been a murder. Okay, it wasn't the men, because there

481
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: was such a sense of impropriety for a man to

482
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: see a woman, whether she was dead in or life,

483
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: whether it's in the middle of a murder investigation, with

484
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: no clothes on. It was just difficult, again, like asking uncomfortable,

485
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: difficult questions like are you sleeping with this woman? There

486
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: aren't a lot of police officers in the seventeen hundreds

487
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: who might not asked that, so it's very touchy. It's

488
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: not as an aggressive investigation in the seventeen hundreds, but

489
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: when you've got someone who's related to Ezra Weeks with

490
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: that kind of a name, and then you add in

491
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: this incredible defense team with Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr,

492
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: I don't think the prosecutors really had a chance because

493
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: they're just about ready to dismantle his case. So the

494
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: prosecution rests the stands up and says, okay, we think

495
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: she died by suicide. This was not anything that was murder.

496
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: This is a case where they're trying to railroad a

497
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: very respected citizen whose brother is you know, kind of

498
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: an icon at this point in design in New York City,

499
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: and we think that this is more of a witch

500
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: hunt than anything else. They do this by a couple

501
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: of different ways, one which is not surprising it at all,

502
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: which is victim blaming and slut shaming and everything you

503
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: want to call it. The defense, including these two men

504
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: who are so well known in history, tried to tie

505
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: Elma to several different men with unfounded rumors that she

506
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: was having sex with multiple people at the same time

507
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: and nobody wanted to marry her and this was sending

508
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: her into despair. There's a man named Timothy Crane who

509
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: was a boarder for a little bit where Elma was

510
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: a border and Levi was, and he says that Elma

511
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: was melancholy for the week that he was there, which

512
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 1: was not very long ago, and that she once said

513
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: she wished that she had a whole vile full of laudanum,

514
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: and that she would take it. So more talk of

515
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: a woman in despair. Nobody wants her. They're really trying

516
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: to frame Elma as someone who wanted to take her

517
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: own life.

518
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this would be an expected type

519
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 2: of defense in this case. They have a circumstantial case.

520
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: And now they are showing that there is a potentially

521
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: a reasonable explanation for why she ended up dead because

522
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: of her victimology, her past history, her past behavior.

523
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: I agree. And of course we know this happens all

524
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: the time now, and there is the expectation that everybody

525
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: needs a defense. I mean, that is one of the

526
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: hallmarks of our country is that, you know, people who

527
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: are accused of any crime need to be defended, ably defended.

528
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: But that is a discuss way to defend someone. And

529
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: it continued. So there is Elma for a day where

530
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: the defense is presenting all of their evidence, you know,

531
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: on display, this life of a woman who certainly garnered

532
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: much more attention dead than she did alive. So they

533
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: present witnesses. The defense puts on witnesses who say they

534
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: saw Levi all over the place that night. And when

535
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: you triangulate all of these witnesses, and you triangulate the times,

536
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: and you find where there is a space for him

537
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: to draw her on. This sled over to the well,

538
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: kill her, dump her in the well. He has an

539
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: open window of about fifteen minutes. That's the only time

540
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: these witnesses say that nobody saw him was fifteen minutes.

541
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: How much do we believe witnesses and their accuracy without

542
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: cell phones and watches in seventeen ninety nine, when.

543
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: It's very very dark outside, some of these witnesses may

544
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: be in a position to recognize Levi, recognize Elma, are

545
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: close enough, you know, and be able to say, yes,

546
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: I saw him or them together at this location at

547
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: this time, and they could be reliable. I imagine some

548
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: of these witnesses probably are less reliable just because they're

549
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: seeing what they think or who they think is Levi

550
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: or Levi and Elma. But you know Levi by my account.

551
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: Even though Levi and Elma are not seen leaving the

552
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: boarding house together, I think it's a fairly safe assumption

553
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: that they did. So are their witnesses that are putting

554
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: them together at various locations after they left the boarding

555
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: house and then are their witnesses saying, you know, at

556
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: this time, I'm only seeing Levi by himself.

557
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: You know, we're the original investigators able to really drill

558
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: down on a good timeline to where now we narrow

559
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 3: the window of when Alma was alive and when Elma

560
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: is no logger scene and presumed either dead or she's

561
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: off on her own and ultimately ends up dead by

562
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: her own hands.

563
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: Right. And what I think is interesting is that people

564
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: have said all over Levi was here, Levi was there.

565
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: They could definitively identify Levi. But to your point, the

566
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: only thing that we hear of Elma as soon as

567
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: she leaves Catherine's boarding house is potentially she is the

568
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: mystery woman in this single horse sled with nobels racing

569
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: down Broadway between eight pm and nine pm. She vanishes.

570
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: She is not identified after she leaves that boarding house.

571
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: It is just Levi.

572
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: And that is a little bit odd to me.

573
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: You have all these witnesses that are seeing Levi, but

574
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: they're not seeing Levi with Alma.

575
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: Is that more of the defense or prosecution's point of

576
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: view here?

577
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: Well, for me, it comes down to, well, what is

578
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: Levi's statement about what happened that night?

579
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 3: Did he give one? Does it make sense?

580
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: And is it being corroborated by what these witnesses are saying,

581
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: or is he making a statement about our laws with

582
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: Elma and we went here, and we went here, and

583
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: we went here, and then these witnesses are saying, no,

584
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: Levi was by himself. You know, it's it's really utilizing

585
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: these witness statements to either corroborate or refute what Levi

586
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: said that night. If he made a statement, maybe he

587
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: you know, he lawyered up and didn't didn't make any

588
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: statements during the investigation.

589
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: I don't believe he made a statement. And what Burr

590
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: and Hamilton and Livingston who was another attorney, he had this,

591
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, really great team of three. What these three

592
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: men said was contend happened was Levi said goodbye to

593
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: her and they left, and she went one way and

594
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: he went the other and nothing happened. They left, There

595
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: was no marriage ceremony, nothing, and she disappeared and he

596
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: doesn't know what happened to her.

597
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: But this doesn't add up with what Elma was saying

598
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: was going to happen that night.

599
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: Correct to individuals.

600
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: That have no acts to grind in the case outside

601
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: of Hey, our friend Alma said she was going to

602
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: Elope with Levi, and now you go, Okay, So Levi's

603
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: leaving with Alma to go get married, right, and then

604
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: he's just being seen about town all by himself.

605
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is just not adding up.

606
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: It's odd because what I thought, I was trying to

607
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: think about this in my head. Catherine overhears what she

608
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: presumes is Levi and Elma talking in the stairwell before

609
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: the door opens and the two people exit that we

610
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: presume out of the boarding house. What I wondered is

611
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: if they had a discussion that turned into sort of

612
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: a quiet fight. If they were middle class, this would

613
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: not have been some knockdown, drag out fight in front

614
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: of the whole boarding house. Most likely, maybe they just

615
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: decided to separate for the night, or maybe she just

616
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: said I'm going to go somewhere else. Maybe it was

617
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: some sort of a disagreement and then she really did

618
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: what I think the defense was saying happened. What they're

619
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: insinuating is that she took the laudanum and then got

620
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: into the well and died or fell into the well

621
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: one way or the other, and died and there's no toxicology. Yeah,

622
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: in seventeen ninety nine, so there's no testing. And I

623
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't ask you to look, but I

624
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: don't know if there's some sort of like telltale sign

625
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: of if you've had laudanum poisoning.

626
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 2: In all likelihood, probably not, especially after eleven days decomposition.

627
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 3: And I go.

628
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 2: Back to the witness who says he saw the horse

629
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: drawn carriage with a single track, You know that impression

630
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: in snow outside the well. I so want to know

631
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: when he made that statement relative to when there was

632
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: anything in the press about the case. And then when

633
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: are they interviewed about this horse drawn carriage with no

634
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 2: bells going down Broadway with two men and a woman,

635
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: and then the horse drawn carriage with no bells coming

636
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: out of Ezra Week's Residenceablishing when these witness statements are

637
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: being made, I think could be very informative in terms

638
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: of I could put more weight on that kind of

639
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: detail than multiple witnesses saying I saw Levi that night, right,

640
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: And now you have an assumption that well, him and

641
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 2: Elma have just separated, and Elma has taking her life

642
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: in her own hands. So That's part of what I

643
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: would really want to do is map out this suspicious

644
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: horse drawn carriage as to when the tracks being seen

645
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: by the well versus when the other witnesses are seeing

646
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: versus when it was made public? Did this witnesses who

647
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: saw the horse draw in carriage tracks by the well?

648
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: Was that public information early on in the case, prior

649
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: to these people who are now saying, oh, I saw

650
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 2: the same horse draw in carriage.

651
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 3: You know, a two men, any woman? You know.

652
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: If they're making that kind of statement before being able

653
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: to read it in the public domain, that becomes significant

654
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: to me because it's such a unique detail that I

655
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: put weight.

656
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: On that well. The man says that he noticed the

657
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: single track horse shrawn carriage and the men's shoe prints

658
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: by the well. He noticed it a couple of days

659
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: after she went missing, after the muff was discovered, but

660
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: before her body was discovered. To be honest, Paul, I

661
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: don't know if this came from an interview after all

662
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: of this came out, but I would hope that the

663
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: police would have been throw from the beginning because this

664
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: involved a high profile family. But I don't know. You're right,

665
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: I mean, this could have been some sort of conspiracy

666
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: here of all of these people trying to railroad this guy.

667
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. I want to come back to the

668
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: medical evidence, though, which is more probable based on what

669
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: you know, a murder or a suicide based on the

670
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: scratches and everything else that you've heard, We don't know.

671
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: No.

672
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: I think based on what is being relayed from the dentist,

673
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 2: from the physician, from this civilian witness as to what

674
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: the condition of Elma's body was in and the types

675
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 2: of injuries, I really can't determine how she died based

676
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: on that. If I put any weight on the marks

677
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: around her neck, that would suggest strangulation. When I start

678
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 2: thinking about, well is this homicide versus suicide? That's where

679
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: I go back to what we know about what was

680
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 2: supposed to happen that night, and the suspicious contradiction between

681
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: what Levi is saying versus what Elma was saying was

682
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: going to be happening, right, and then Levi's behavior when

683
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 2: he comes back. He leaves with Elma and he comes

684
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: back alone, and he's distraught, and he's making a statement

685
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: that he's pretty.

686
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: Convinced she's dead.

687
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, that comes a couple days later, when he says,

688
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: I think she's into eternity. Immediately when he comes back

689
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: that night that's supposed to be his wedding nighte he

690
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: says that I would rather die with credit than live

691
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: underneath credit, So he is saying, I'm kind of not

692
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: worthy unless she can help me out. I don't know

693
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: how this is going to work, so it's all very confusing,

694
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: and I think what it really comes down to is

695
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: the thing I hate the most is it feels like

696
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: this is a murder. I don't see her walking out

697
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 1: to a remote well, and this does not seem likely.

698
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: When it sounds to me like you're saying it's very

699
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: easy to overdose on laudanum and that's it. Why would

700
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: you then jump into a well. Maybe she took it

701
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: and stumbled into it, but it's kind of far removed.

702
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: I just don't like that sequence of events. You know,

703
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: she leaves to go get married, and now she's taking

704
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: the laudanum and doing a header down.

705
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: Into the well.

706
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything about Levi's behavior just suggests that, in my mind,

707
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: he likely is involved in her homicide.

708
00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: There may have been a financial motive.

709
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: He comes back to Straught and is bringing up financial aspects.

710
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and who's his financial resource.

711
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: It's his brother, yeah, you know, and I lean towards

712
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 2: that in terms of this is a homicide and that

713
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 2: that Levi is is likely culpable and Ezra may have

714
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: you know, assisted in some way. But right now, with

715
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: the information that you're presenting as it was presented in trial,

716
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: I just don't think that they have a case against Levi.

717
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: You know, they have suspicion for sure, And of course

718
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: the defense is able to muddy the water because Alma

719
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 2: has made statements to other witnesses about wanting to take

720
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 2: her own life. You know, even though they do the

721
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: victim blaming in terms of her possibly being with other

722
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: men and stuff, you know, just to try to disparage Alma,

723
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: they are relying upon what she has told other people,

724
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: and that is just going to give the jurors reasonable doubt.

725
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: Yep.

726
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: I agree. Like my dad said, it doesn't matter what

727
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: you think, it matters what you can prove. The state

728
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: couldn't prove this, So the judge essentially told the jury

729
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: that he essentially said, I mean, this just seems like

730
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: ripe for appeal. I guess, but he essentially says, you

731
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: really should acquit Levi Weeks. There's not enough evidence, So

732
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: of course they go back, and after five minutes of deliberating,

733
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: they come back with a not guilty verdict. And Catherine,

734
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: who is her closest friend, Almos's closest friend and really

735
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: the main advocate at this whole trial, she jumps up

736
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: and yells at Alexander Hamilton, founding father of our country,

737
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: and Aaron Burr and the other defense attorney, and yells,

738
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: if the dies a natural death, I shall think there

739
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: is no justice in heaven. That's an fu in eighteenth

740
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: century speak. She was mad, and this feels like they

741
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: wanted to vindication for this woman's life, and they feel

742
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: like they didn't get it. And Levi Week walks out

743
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: of Freeman.

744
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 2: And it doesn't escape my attention that Ezra such a

745
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: notable citizen. Is it possible you have a corrupt police force.

746
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: Is it possible that the judge was, you know, in

747
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 2: cahoots with Ezra, or Ezra had sway over this judge.

748
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: There is a political component to having somebody so notable

749
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 2: and so wealthy that it's possible that that swayed the investigation.

750
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: Funny, you should bring that up oh, because troubling detail

751
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: around this case is that Ezra Weeks tried to bribe

752
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: one of the three court clerks to take information out

753
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: of the permanent record, just trying to make his family

754
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: look better. And what critics then said was that it

755
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: is clear that we can't believe any of the defense's witnesses,

756
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: the people who said she was suicidal, the people who

757
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: gave him an alibi, because if Ezra Weeks is willing

758
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: to bribe a court clerk, who else did he bribe

759
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: who took the stand? And I think that's a very

760
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: credible argument.

761
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: Sure, no, absolutely, Now you're buying witnesses, and you're getting

762
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: people who are telling absolute lies on the stand, and

763
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, they are being compensated in some manner,

764
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: whether it's actual money compensation or whether they've been threatened

765
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: that if they don't do this, their life is going

766
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 2: to be changed in some manner, because you have somebody

767
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: who has the assets and the connections in order to

768
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: do that.

769
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: Yep, so Levi Weeks is a free man. Nobody is

770
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: convicted ever of Almah's murder. If she was murdered, We're

771
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: not sure, but I would lean towards murder and it

772
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: sounds like you would too. This does not seem like

773
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: a suicide or an accidental death to me at all.

774
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I definitely lean towards this is a homicide case.

775
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: They just took it to try way too.

776
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: Early, and they were outmatched. Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr

777
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: were two of the most powerful, intelligent, aggressive attorneys in

778
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: the New America. So the prosecutor, I think, was outmatched.

779
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: So Levi walks out leaves New York because he becomes

780
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: a pariah. The press just dismantles his character on the

781
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: pages of the newspapers, and the public is incensed, and

782
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 1: of course they think that Ezra Weeks comes in and

783
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: saves his brother the murderer, even though this is a

784
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: pretty weak case. So Levi bounces from place to place

785
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: because he's run out of town. He finally settles in Mississippi,

786
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: where he marries and he starts a family, and he

787
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: ends up running a successful architectural firm like his brother.

788
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: Then we know what happens with Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr.

789
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: Five years after this verdict. They get into an argument.

790
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff happening, and there's a duel,

791
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: and Aaron Burr kills Alexander Hamilton, and then David Hozak

792
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: tries to save Hamilton's life and it doesn't work, and

793
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: the trajectory of politics in some ways changes in the

794
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 1: United States after that, because Alexander Hamilton, I have no doubt,

795
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: would have been a president of the United States. So

796
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: this case highlights privilege. You know, you think, this guy

797
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: is in a boarding house dating just a normal middle

798
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: class woman, and you have an incredibly wealthy brother coming

799
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: in and saving him. And this happens time and time again.

800
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: If you have enough money and a great defense team,

801
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: you can get out of a lot of things. I

802
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: know this was a weak case, but still they bury

803
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: the prosecutor. Absolutely.

804
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, for whatever reason, O. J. Simpson's name

805
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: keeps popping into my head at this point.

806
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: I have a whole list of names that pop into

807
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: my head because of this. So Elma's murder is officially

808
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: an unsolved case. There's obviously a lot of intrigue around

809
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: this case. Still in the Manhattan well is visible at

810
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: this clothing store in Soho in New York, and obviously

811
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: it's haunted by Alma's spirit. And now we've whipped right

812
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: back around to ghostly tales and just the general spookiness

813
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: of so many spots for me in America and around

814
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: the world, the lives that are lived below the ground

815
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: that you walk are incredible. We just have no idea

816
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: what's out there.

817
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 2: I will say this is you know, I talked about

818
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: not ever experiencing anything that I would consider in the paranormal,

819
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: but I've done a lot of old cases where I

820
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 2: go out to the crime scenes and I do feel

821
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: a weird energy when I'm there. There is something where

822
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, you know, And it may just be

823
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 2: because I'm you know, my senses are so in tuned

824
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 2: to soaking in the environment and looking at it, even

825
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: though it's sometimes many decades later looking at it today

826
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: versus what was present back then and looking at the

827
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 2: scene photos and the photos of the victim. But I

828
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: always kind of really connect to these locations for some reason.

829
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 2: And so I can see where people would, you know,

830
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: if they understood that somebody had died in a particular location,

831
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: it would be oh, this is weird, you know, And

832
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 2: whether or not they're actually seeing an apparition or hearing

833
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: a voice or other disturbances occurring. You know, I've never

834
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: experienced that at any of these crime scenes, but most

835
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: certainly I understand just that weird feeling being someplace where

836
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 2: a violent crime has occurred, somebody has died.

837
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: It's a piece of history. And that's why I like

838
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: history so much. Somebody asked me the other day during

839
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: an interview, what other things do you like in history

840
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: besides murder? And I love old cookbooks. I flip through

841
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: very old old Pennsylvania Dutch cookbooks and my mom has,

842
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: you know, cookbooks from the nineteen tens and eighteen hundreds,

843
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: and I love, love, love old cookbooks, and it just

844
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: takes you back in time. So if we're ever in

845
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: New York together, we should go visit the Manhattan Well,

846
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 1: just because there's no replacing being somewhere to just see

847
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: and feel what that must have been like for somebody.

848
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: And no matter what happened in that well, Elma Sands

849
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: ended up in the well and to be alone in

850
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: freezing water, whether she had died first, What a terrible

851
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: ending for a woman who I assume had every potential

852
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: in life there was at age twenty two. And it's

853
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,959
Speaker 1: sad to think about, but an important story to tell

854
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: I think.

855
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 2: Yea, and I would love to go see that well

856
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 2: when we end up in New York together.

857
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: I'm booking a flight, all right, I'm on it.

858
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: Just just let me know when and where.

859
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: Okay, So I will see you next week for another

860
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: fantastic Buried Bones case.

861
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 3: Awesome, Thanks Kate.

862
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: Thanks, this has been an exactly right production.

863
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: For our sources and notes go to exactly wrightmedia dot

864
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones Sources.

865
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

866
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

867
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

868
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

869
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

870
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Daniel Kramer.

871
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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Speaker 1: Bared Bones Pod.

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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

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Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

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Speaker 1: Cases is also available now