1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Back when I was in college. El Salvador was the 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: leading news story on TV every single night. 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 2: The crackling sound of gunfire began at mid afternoon in 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: this slum neighborhood just outside El Salvador's capital. Government troops 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 2: had swarmed over the area, searching anyone who looked suspicious. 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: The soldiers said rebel guerrillas were firing at them from 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: a ravine one hundred yards away. 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: It was the early nineteen eighties and the farabun No 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: Marti National Liberation Front, a gorilla group also known as 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: the FMLN, led an insurrection against the corrupt and repressive 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Salvadoran government. The result a decade long civil war in 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: the country. 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 3: This is typical of what's happening through out El Salvador today, 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 3: with the army moving in on positions the gorillas captured 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 3: during their offensive. 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: When the war ended in nineteen ninety two, more than 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: seventy five one thousand people had been killed, many of 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: them civilians and mostly at the hands of the Salvadoran government. 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 3: The army here waits for no excuses from people out 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 3: after the curfew falls. 21 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 4: They shoot first. 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: And here's the thing, dear listener, The United States played 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: a big role in. 24 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 4: All of this. 25 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: Yes, the United States supported the repressive Salvadoran government's fight 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: against the fml N with millions of dollars in funding 27 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: and in weapons. 28 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 3: More helicopters start to lift off out of the bush. 29 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 3: Mounted on the side of the craft their US supply 30 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 3: M six machine guns, with which the army launches its 31 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: surprise aerial bombardments. 32 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: Eventually, the UN broker a peace deal and the FMLN 33 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: went from a gorilla group to a political party, and 34 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: since then, the liberal fml N party and the conservative 35 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: at Inna party had actually alternated holding power in ensa 36 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: Vador until twenty nineteen. That's when a young anti establishment 37 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: presidential candidate won the election against the Momentos complain Nai 38 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: Bukele campaign on ending gang violence in Salvador and promised 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: to become a closer ally of the United States. And 40 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: since then he's enacted a state of emergency in his 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: country that has suspended all constitutional rights. His government has 42 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: imprisoned tens of thousands of people in a highly controversial megaprison. 43 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: His mano dura, or hardhand approach to cracking down on 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: crime and violence, has earned him praise from President Donald 45 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: Trump and the MAGA Circle. 46 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I love you too. 47 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 4: I love you too. Buke got a rock star. 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: Welcome at last year's Conservative Political Action Conference also known 49 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: as SEAPAC, which was held in the United States and 50 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: now the Salvadoran president has made an unprecedented offer to 51 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: imprison American citizens in El Salvador. From Utro Media and PRX, 52 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: it's Latino USA. I'm Maria Ino JSA today the growing 53 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: cozy relationship between the United States and El Salvador. Today, 54 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm joined by two journalists who have been covering Central 55 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: America and Salvadoran president. Naib Bukele Roman Grecier is the 56 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: editor of the newsportal Elfarro English. He's host of the 57 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: podcast Central America and Minutes, and also joining us is 58 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: Lelia Luciano. She's a CBS News twenty four to seven 59 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: anchor and a correspondent at the network. Welcome to the 60 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: both of you, to let you know, USA. 61 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, a pleasure to be here. 62 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 5: Thank you so much money. 63 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 6: It's an honor. 64 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: So Donald Trump has made mass deportation a focal point 65 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: of his campaign. He's made it the central part of 66 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: his first two months in office, and certainly in a 67 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: performative way. Part of his administration strategy relies actually on 68 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: convincing Latin American countries, particularly in Central America, to receive 69 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: migrants and people deported. Right Panama, Costa Rica, Latemala, they 70 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: have all agreed to take deportees, even in fact from 71 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: countries other than their own. But in terms of Salvadord 72 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: and It's President Naibukile, they agreed to not only jail 73 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: deportees of any nationality, but Bukeli took it a step further. 74 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: He said he would be prepared to take in American 75 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: citizens convicted of violent crime. It is a major step 76 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: in a very particular direction. So let's start with you Roman, 77 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: you cover Central America, based in the region. What do 78 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: you make of this? 79 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 7: I think that you're right. It is extraordinary, and that 80 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 7: when Marco Rubio came to Central America, it was his 81 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 7: first international trip, trying to send a message that the 82 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 7: Latin American region in general was going to be. 83 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 4: A priority for their policy. 84 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 7: Bukele wanted to offer something big, So when Rubio came 85 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 7: to El Salvador, they did make this grand announcement that 86 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 7: El Salvador had offered to receive US citizens and incarcerate 87 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 7: them in El Salvador. You know, part of it was 88 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 7: rhetorical in the sense that it's probably legally impossible for 89 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 7: him to send US citizens to be incarcerated in El Salvador. 90 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 7: But on the other hand, in a very concrete way, 91 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 7: they were resuming the migration cooperation that dated back to 92 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 7: Trump's first term. 93 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: So, Lelia, you like me, are a little bit obsessed 94 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: with Central America and in particular El Salvador. You've been 95 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: following the president for quite a while, so what's your 96 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: take of this move on the part of Bukilli. 97 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 6: Well, Madia, as you also know, I've been covering the 98 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 6: border for many, many years, and I do member that 99 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 6: for a long time I used to hear the stories 100 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 6: of Salvadorans who were terrorized by the gangs, and then 101 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 6: the numbers started coming down. What I think Neyabuka has 102 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 6: been doing is implementing a model for others to follow, 103 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 6: and he has been celebrated in the Republican Party seepack 104 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 6: at so many levels for his policies and because of 105 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 6: this crackdown. 106 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: I could not have imagined that someone like Bugle would 107 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: end up in leadership. But then it makes sense Roman. 108 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: I mean, he's super young. He likes to portray himself 109 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: as super high tech. He did run a very controversial 110 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: re election campaign last year, so can you talk about 111 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: that and on his whole obsession with Mano Dura the 112 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: hard Hand in terms of cracking down on gangs and 113 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: violence and why he does make sense in terms of 114 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: this long, tortured, often violent history in El Salvador. 115 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 7: It's really interesting because we were talking just a few 116 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 7: minutes ago about whether or not this security prison cooperation 117 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 7: is extraordinary, and I think it is, but it's not 118 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 7: unprecedented in the sense that across Central America the prison 119 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 7: population has swelled in recent decades. I suspect there is 120 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 7: a degree of US cooperation that has played into that. 121 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 7: And even starting in two thousand and nine, when the 122 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 7: former guerrilla party, the FMLN, took power, there was an 123 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 7: increasing militarization of public safety in the National Civil Police. 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 7: That trend line has certainly continued to this day to 125 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 7: where the police and the military operate hand in hand 126 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 7: under the state of exception. For a bit of context, 127 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 7: Naibukele came out of the ranks of the FMLN that's 128 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 7: how he came up in politics. He was first mayor 129 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 7: of Nuevo kus Katlan, which is essentially a smaller town 130 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 7: outside of San Salvador. In twenty fifteen, he took the 131 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 7: mayor's office of the Capitol, and by that time he 132 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 7: was profiling himself as a front runner for the twenty 133 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 7: nineteen election. He broke with the FMLN shortly after that 134 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 7: and positioned himself as kind of this third way candidate 135 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 7: from the traditional left and right. And he always had 136 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 7: this kind of eccentric, charismatic personality, and I think there 137 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 7: was an appetite for a fresh face who could speak 138 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 7: to new social media audiences. So in twenty nineteen he 139 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 7: was elected, and it was a watershed moment certainly in 140 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 7: the history of the country because he took the presidency 141 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 7: with the minority party Nuevas Ideas or New Ideas. 142 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 5: Now. 143 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 4: Bukell is a publicist. 144 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 7: By vocation, so he really wanted to position that idea 145 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 7: of new, new, new social media narrative and he was 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 7: very successful at doing that. And so the constitution has 147 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 7: at least six explicit prohibitions on immediate presidential reelection. Those 148 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 7: bands were so explicit that Bukele himself acknowledged it multiple times, 149 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 7: but in February twenty twenty and February ninth, which has 150 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 7: become this infamous date in Salvador and discourse since then, 151 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 7: he kind of burst into the legislative chamber flanked by 152 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 7: soldiers with you know, long weapons, and demanded that they 153 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 7: approve as a security package loan that he had not 154 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 7: provided details for in terms of what he was going 155 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 7: to use the money for. So legislative auditors, which he 156 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 7: didn't control the legislature at the time, were asking for details, 157 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 7: and he basically said that God told me to have patients, 158 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,599 Speaker 7: so I won't dissolve the assembly today, And that was 159 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 7: the first alarm belt. 160 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: But then you start to see some of the real 161 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: life consequences of his administration and what he has come 162 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: to stand for. So, Lilia, you did end up going 163 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: to this mega prison in San Salvador in the capitol. 164 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: This is the place where potentially American citizens who are 165 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: criminals could be held. It's a prison that is notorious 166 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: for human rights violations. So, as a seasoned journalist, what 167 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: did you take away from the experience of being inside 168 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: this mega prison? 169 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 6: Madeo one of the first things that I spoke to 170 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 6: camera as I was walking into SICOT and seeing the 171 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 6: prisoners was precisely about the message. The official name of 172 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 6: this place is the Center for the Confinement of Terrorism 173 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 6: Inmates Colleage by its acronym SICOT. I've been asking for 174 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 6: over a year and a half for access into this place, 175 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 6: and this is the first time we're getting in. 176 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 5: These are the most violent criminals in the country. We 177 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 5: saw cells with anywhere between eighty to one hundred men 178 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 5: crammed inside. We are not allowed to interact, to speak 179 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 5: to any other prisoners. 180 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: They are all staring at us. 181 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 6: It's so striking to see them. I think that, as 182 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 6: Roman mentioned, it's clear that Naibukele is a professional marketer. 183 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 6: He's a publicist. He has been recognized by I think 184 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 6: many experts for how his this brand has been built, 185 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 6: and I think the pinnacle of his brand in the 186 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 6: hemisphere is this prison. 187 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino usay Lilia tells us more about 188 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: what she saw when she visited Bukel's mega prison. We 189 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: also get into the parallels between the right wing movements 190 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: in El Salvador and those in the United States. Stay 191 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: with us, Yes, Hey, We're back with our conversation on 192 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: the long ties between the US and El Salvador. We're 193 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: joined by journalists Roman Grecier and Lilia Luciano. Here's Lilia 194 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: again on her visit to El Salvador's infamous Mega prison. 195 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 6: When I walked in, I I thought, these are the 196 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 6: images that he wants to send. It's obviously why I'm 197 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 6: in there, why they approve for me to go in, 198 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 6: because they clearly wanted to show the ciquote from within 199 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 6: to the US. And this happened after this deal with 200 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 6: the US was announced, after this agreement that and Salvador 201 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 6: would take deportees. One of the moments that really stayed 202 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 6: with me was when they did a search of the 203 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 6: cells and just for context, there are around one hundred 204 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 6: prisoners inside each cell. They sleep on not cots but 205 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 6: metal slabs. There's no sheets or mattresses or anything. They 206 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 6: all have their heads shaved. I asked, you know whether 207 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 6: this was in the effort of dehumanizing them, and they 208 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 6: said that, of course. The thing that sets them apart 209 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 6: is the gang tattoos that show that they belonged to 210 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 6: one gang or another. And they said, well, we want 211 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 6: to take away whatever their sense of individuality would be, 212 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 6: so it felt performativeform this search of a cell. But 213 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 6: being in there, I started also asking, so why is 214 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 6: this place different besides all of the messaging that comes 215 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 6: in those images. They said, well, they will never leave here. 216 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 6: They are here for life. And I said, well, you know, 217 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 6: but there's people here who are not convicted. And the 218 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 6: director of the prison told me yeah, but they're never. 219 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: Going to leap. 220 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 6: And I said, well, wow, if you're not convicted, they 221 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 6: could probably make a case to come out, and he 222 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 6: said no, no, this is the worst of the worst. 223 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 6: The Minister of Security explained to me that the way 224 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 6: they built this system and the state of Exception is 225 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 6: with the goal of controlling what they call the phenomenon 226 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 6: that happens throughout Latin America throughout the world. That street 227 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 6: gangs would be controlled from the prisons. He said, the 228 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 6: only way to do that is to suffocate any kind 229 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 6: of communication. So prisoners, not just in Schod but outside, 230 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 6: do not get to see family members. The prisoners who 231 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 6: are in Sidchod don't go to hearings, They only attend 232 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 6: or communications with their attorneys via zoom. But I asked, 233 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 6: what's the point if you're saying they're never going to 234 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 6: leave here. What kind of case are they making? And 235 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 6: the director of the prisons, you know, just insisted that 236 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 6: they're never going to leave. And to that point, I 237 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 6: also had the opportunity to talk to the Minister of Defense. 238 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 6: There was a phrase that stayed with me, which is, 239 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 6: in the past, we had to wait for people to 240 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 6: commit a crime to arrest them. Now we just detain 241 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 6: them for suspicion. And that's the whole thing about the 242 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 6: state of exception that they have implemented, is they detain 243 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 6: people for suspicion of belonging to gangs. And that's how 244 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 6: you have eighty thousand people or more without a real 245 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 6: day in court. People are not charged for their individual crimes. 246 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 6: They are charged for the crimes of the entire game. 247 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 6: So it's these mass hearings and about eight thousand, according 248 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 6: to the Minister of Security, have been released. He told 249 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 6: me out of a four thousand. 250 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: See, the thing is is that, you know, you begin 251 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: to imagine that is the United States that far off 252 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: right when you talk about Donald Trump's administration, where the 253 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: carceral state and detaining and deporting is just kind of 254 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: the solution to it all. Again, Manodura hard hand. So 255 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: Secretary of State Marco Rubio traveled to Central American countries 256 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: in early February in order to get the governments to 257 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: agree to take back the deportees. He in fact said, well, 258 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: Bukel is offered to take American born American citizen people 259 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: behind bars, would probably face extraordinary legal challenges. But when 260 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: we get into questions like the state of exception right 261 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: where now do process is suspended, anything can happen. So 262 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: what do you think, Robant in terms of how much 263 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: is this being actually pushed at this point by Bukele 264 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: And do you think that it can move further or 265 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: is it just going to stay in the kind to 266 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: performative state. 267 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 7: I think that won't happen. I think it's performative and 268 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 7: meant to send a message of intense US cooperation at 269 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 7: a time when he's been pretty aggressively courting the Magas 270 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 7: base for at least a couple of years. I believe 271 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 7: the first time he appeared on Tucker Carlson's show when 272 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 7: he was still at Fox News was perhaps three years, 273 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 7: if not longer ago. 274 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 8: You're not exporting products for service if you're exporting people, 275 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 8: So when you keep this. Countries depending on that, the 276 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 8: economy is like a vicious cycle. So it's bad for 277 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 8: the United States because immigration will go up, and it's 278 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 8: bad for our countries because people leaving the country will 279 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 8: go up as well. So it's bad for both of us. 280 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 4: Smart Yeah, thank you, thank you. 281 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 7: And he's appeared several times, had Trump Junior at his inauguration, 282 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 7: along with a whole cast of characters from the Mega Orbit. 283 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 7: And I do think that it was meant to send 284 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 7: a signal of intense cooperation. Anything is on the table 285 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 7: if it's about migration and solidifying a relationship with Trump. 286 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 6: Maria, I'm going to jump in because I sat with 287 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 6: the spokesperson from DHS and I asked about specifically how 288 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 6: they're carrying out the deportations. They told me they have 289 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 6: deported so far since Trump came into office, more than 290 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 6: fifty thousand people. They call those people the worst of 291 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 6: the worst. Then the assumption is we are sending people 292 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 6: with criminal records, gang members, etc. Bugin's offer was don't 293 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 6: just release them into the continent. We want to imprison 294 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 6: them here and say, oh. 295 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 4: That has not happened. 296 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 6: And I asked DHS, Hey, what's the status of this 297 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 6: deal with Buchina. The Trump administration is saying, we are 298 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 6: already deporting the worst of the worst. And we know 299 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 6: that people went to Guantanamo, one hundred and seventy seven 300 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 6: of them were Venezuelan and they were sent to Venezuela. 301 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 6: And I asked about Venezuela and they told me, well, basically, 302 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 6: that's not our business. You know, we can't handle the 303 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 6: policy in other country, whether it's El Salvador or Venezula. 304 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 6: But from what DHS tells me is the deal with 305 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 6: bu of sending people there, sending deportees with criminal records 306 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 6: to El Salvador. 307 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 4: Has not happened. 308 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 6: So I do question why is in El Salvador taking 309 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 6: already Trump is calling the worst of the worst? 310 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: Right, So that leads us to this very interesting fascination 311 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: that members of Donald Trump's followers his administration maga people 312 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: who actually seem to like Boukele a lot right. So Roman, 313 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: let's talk for a moment about the parallels between these 314 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: right wing movements in the United States and Bukele, who 315 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: started from the left but has become clearly right wing. 316 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: What are the parallels between these two movements in the 317 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: United States and L Salvador. 318 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 7: I think they're part of a global network of ideologically 319 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 7: aligned parties. You know, you could tie them to Victor 320 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 7: Orbah and others on international scale. They share it in 321 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 7: anti globalism quote unquote discourse, deep hostility toward critical civil 322 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 7: society organizations and press freedom. And you know those are 323 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 7: all trends in Al Savador from a number of years ago. 324 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 7: We can point to the hostilities towards civil society organizations 325 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 7: in Al Savador, not just the press, human rights monitors. 326 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 7: And I think that that connects to Bukelis, the way 327 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 7: that Bukele casts any dissident voice as part of the 328 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 7: quote unquote political opposition, and that does I feel neatly 329 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 7: align with some of the mega currents and discourse. You know, 330 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 7: at Seapac last year in twenty twenty four, he said famously. 331 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 8: They say global listen comes to die at Seapack. I'm 332 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 8: here to tell you that in alsabad Or. 333 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 4: It's all right that. 334 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: It seems like the Trump administration looks to El Salvador 335 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: and it says, huh, the Bugeli administration has completely limited 336 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: access of journalists. Can you talk really about the parallels 337 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: that you see begin, the Trump administration kind of looking 338 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: to us of it and saying, Hi, if they did that, 339 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: well maybe we can too. 340 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 6: Buken is not the only leader that is presenting models 341 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 6: that the Trump administration might want to emulate or center 342 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 6: in their discourse. But I do think that it might 343 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 6: be a symbiotic thing because I think Bukele does act 344 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 6: like Trump, and this is the second Trump term, and 345 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 6: I think that you might be right that they might 346 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 6: be looking at the Bukena model. I mean, we know 347 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 6: that Buela likes to speak in press conferences and select 348 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 6: the journalists he talks to. But we are seeing how 349 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 6: the White House is not wanting the you know, the 350 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 6: White House Correspondence Association to basically run how things play 351 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 6: out an independent organization, and they're changing the rules. So 352 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 6: you're right that a lot of what is playing out 353 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 6: in the US has happened already in places like El Salvador. 354 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 6: There's definitely a paying attention and we have seen many 355 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 6: members of Congress go down there take note. He's trying 356 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 6: to attract. That's the other thing that Bukela has expressed 357 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 6: that they're doing, and that his administration is trying to 358 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 6: promote as other governments in the region. Is attract investment 359 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 6: from US and know other countries. 360 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: Right, I mean I was very surprised, you know, suddenly 361 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: I start seeing these like come retire to El Salvador, 362 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: the safest place you can imagine, because there's a massive 363 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: prison system. So Roman you were Outlet Elfao was accused 364 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: by the Bukele administration of money laundering. The administration has 365 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: forced many journalists into exile. You yourself were expelled from Il 366 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: Salvado because of your work as a journalist in twenty 367 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: twenty one. So I'm wondering if you can talk about 368 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: the context and what your sense is as you're watching 369 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: this all play out, because it does feel like there 370 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: are these parallels between again El Salvador and the United States. 371 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. 372 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 7: I would add about Ilfado that in April twenty twenty three, 373 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 7: the outlet administratively exiled its legal inscription to Costa Rica 374 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 7: and that was a result of the phony money laundering 375 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 7: and tax evasion accusations levied by the Bukeli administration against 376 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 7: the newsroom. Now, in my individual case, yes, I had 377 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 7: my residency denied in twenty twenty one, and I was 378 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 7: de facto expelled from the country, although I had preemptively 379 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 7: gotten on a bus to avoid them showing up and 380 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 7: forcefully removing me. So about let's see three years ago now, 381 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 7: we denounced that about two thirds of the entire newsroom 382 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 7: were surveiled, including myself, were surveilled using Pegasus spyware between 383 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 7: twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Pegasus, for those who 384 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 7: don't know, is a spy were developed in Israel and 385 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 7: approved by the Israeli Ministry of Defense and sold only 386 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 7: to governments. And since then, we've actually launched a case 387 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 7: in California which is currently on appeal. We're appealing because 388 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 7: of a dismissal. The judge had ruled that it was 389 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 7: a foreign issue and he wrote that he didn't want 390 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 7: to burden a US jury with it, even though I mean, 391 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 7: we could say that has very broad implications for the 392 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 7: US and for the whole world. But on the other hand, I, 393 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 7: in particular, I am a US citizen and that wasn't taken 394 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 7: into account in the rolling. So we'll see what happens 395 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 7: on appeal in the next coming months. But in Broaderil Salvador, 396 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 7: in the same investigation that revealed the surveillance against Ilfado 397 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 7: there were around thirty five cases revealed by the Citizen 398 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 7: Lab at the University of Toronto, and these covered multiple newsrooms, columnists, 399 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 7: critical civil society organizations, human rights organizations, legal monitors, etc. 400 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 7: And on the other hand, there has been just an 401 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 7: absolute shuddering of public information. The government does very carefully 402 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 7: curate any and all media access it is granted in 403 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 7: the country, and I could say with probably ninety nine 404 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 7: percent certainty that no salvador And journalist has accessed sikled 405 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 7: the Center for Confinement of Terrorists, for example. And when 406 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 7: there is access to the press, it's usually to US 407 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 7: or foreign media or influencers, YouTubers and its lights, camera, 408 00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 7: police action, as the old saying goes. 409 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 4: So everything is very carefully curated. 410 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 7: Though I would say that it's interesting that the Security 411 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 7: Minister Gusta Wobietro told Lilia that people are being tried 412 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 7: not for their individual crimes, which is a reflection of 413 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 7: reporting that we and other outlets have been doing for 414 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 7: a number of years, but that he distilled it that 415 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 7: clearly is striking. 416 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: So Lilia, just to wrap up, you know, in the 417 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: first Trump administration, really the focus was on Mexico Mexico, Mexico, Mexico, Mexico. 418 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: You now have a situation where Donald Trump is dealing regionally, right, 419 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: and these different partnerships are coming up. But we also 420 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: know that Donald Trump is a very unpredictable leader, which 421 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: means that all of these alliances can also be precarious. Right, 422 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: So what do you think. Just give us your long 423 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: term understanding of what you think is going to happen 424 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: again as this tiny, the smallest country in all of 425 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: Central America begins to have a much more massive presence 426 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: in the national dialogue and in kind of zeitgeist of 427 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's and Elon Musk's mind of what's possible. 428 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 6: You know, Marie, I thought that one of the most 429 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 6: effective policies that we have seen from politicians in the 430 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 6: US in many years was the bussing of migrants to 431 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 6: cities that were run by democratic mayors or states with 432 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 6: democratic governors, basically saying, you deal with the issue. I 433 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 6: think this moment is also sending the same message. I 434 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 6: think there's a parallel there with Trump saying to countries 435 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 6: in the region, you deal with the issue, and whether 436 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 6: it's tariff threats for threats to sovereignty like in the 437 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 6: case of the Panama Canal, it's forcing the arm of 438 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 6: countries in the region to deal with it. It's two 439 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 6: things that Trump wants. He wants to show that he's 440 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 6: this strong man who is forcing countries to do what 441 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 6: he wants, and at the same time, he wants to 442 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 6: show the images of we are deporting as many people 443 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 6: as we can. So I think for the Trump and 444 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 6: administration it's kind of a win win, Whereas for the 445 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 6: Biden administration, it was said, you know that we would cooperate, 446 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 6: and there were initiatives in the region, like in Panama 447 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 6: and in Guatemala, to deal with the issue of migration, 448 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 6: but it was neither visible nor I think very effective, 449 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 6: given when you look at the numbers. So you know, 450 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 6: we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know where 451 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 6: this is all going to end up. But I think 452 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 6: from my experience covering so many countries in the region 453 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 6: is when people have opportunities where they are, people don't 454 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 6: just want to move their families and their lives. So 455 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 6: whether it's investment or opening up and providing the assistance 456 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 6: you can for democratic governance to flourish in the region, 457 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 6: that's how you handle the problem, and what we are 458 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 6: seeing is around the world is not a support for 459 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 6: democratic governance. 460 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,239 Speaker 1: All right, So, Roman, long term, how you see this 461 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: relationship between the United States and El Salvador. 462 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 7: I think it was clear from about two years ago 463 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 7: that the broad policy of US support for l Salvador 464 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 7: and for Bukele has been largely bipartisan issue, even if 465 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 7: they differ on certain points or if the Biden administration 466 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 7: disagrees with certain things in private. The Biden administration decided 467 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 7: to no longer criticize immediate presidential reelection, and the Trump 468 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 7: administration has certainly continued the broad strokes of cooperation. So 469 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 7: I don't see any indication that their support for Al 470 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 7: Salvador would waiver. 471 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: Roman Gracier and Lilia Luciano, thank you so much for 472 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: joining me and let you know USA, and for giving us, 473 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: you know, all of the context and information that we 474 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: need to know as we look to the future of 475 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: what might happen between the United States and El Salvador. 476 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 477 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 6: Thank you, Madia. 478 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 4: Thanks it was great to be here. 479 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Nur Saudi and edited by 480 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: Andrea Lopez Cruzado. It was mixed by Lea Shaw Demro. 481 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: The Latino USA team also includes Roxanna Guire, Julie Caruso, 482 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: Felicia do Minez, Fernando Chavari, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Dominiquinestrosa, 483 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: Renaldo Lenos Junior, Stephanie in the Boat, Luis Luna, Marta Martinez, 484 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: JJ Crubin, Dasha Sandoval and Nancy Trujillo, Penille Ramirez, Marlon Bishop, 485 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: Maria Garcia and myself are co executive producers and I'm 486 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: your host, Marino Rossa. Join us again on our next episode. 487 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: In the meantime, look for us on all of our 488 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: social media. I'll see you on Instagram. E nontevayes Cjao. 489 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 6: Latino USA is made possible in part by California Endowment, 490 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 6: building a strong state by improving the health of all Californians. 491 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 4: The Heising Simons Foundation 492 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 6: Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities more at hsfoundation dot org 493 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 6: and the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front 494 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 6: lines of social change worldwide.