1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one oh one. We're 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: going to be interviewing fran Hauser today. Fran had a 12 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: long career. At time, she ran the Digital Portion of Time, Inc. 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,959 Speaker 1: In addition to a whole lot of other divisions over 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: the years. She is also now the author of The 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: Myth of the Nice Girl, which talks about how niceness 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: is not a bad thing when it comes to building 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: a career, and in fact, can sometimes be your super 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: So we're really excited to hear from her. This is 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: airing in early July. You know, July fourth is kind 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: of the start of the summer in the Northeast. The 21 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: way I hear in Miami things are a little bit different, right, Sarah. Yeah, 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: you're right. When I was growing up, I felt like 23 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: July fourth was, you know, one of the maybe the 24 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: second week of camp, you know, like the beginning, and 25 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: our schools end so early, and they start so early 26 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: that it's actually right around the midpoint here, maybe a 27 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: week before. But you're right, it's a kind of time 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: bending in a way. So yeah, I you know, I 29 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: worked on this fourth of July, so not terribly exciting. 30 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: But after that we are going on our family trip 31 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: in July, which is usually August, but this year we 32 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: kind of worked around a trip that my nanny wanted 33 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: to go on, and we try to coordinate our vacation 34 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: her vacation because that works out nicely. So we have 35 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: that to look forward to. That's really awesome. Yeah, we've 36 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: got a beach trip around the fourth and you know, 37 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: big fan doing that most years. Don't know if we'll 38 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: continue it indefinitely, but it's certainly a good week to 39 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: take off because a lot, especially if the fourth is 40 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: in the middle of the week, there's very little that 41 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: happens around it, so it's almost like a freebie that 42 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: nobody's really scheduling meetings on the third or the fifth, 43 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: and nobody's holding their conferences that week, so we can. 44 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: And if you pay for camps, it's usually a full 45 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: priced week, but they don't have camp every day. Yeah, 46 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: so you might as well may as well take it off. Yeah, 47 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: So this episode is going to be about the idea 48 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: of niceness and in a professional context what that means. 49 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: So I have a question for you, Sarah. Do you 50 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: consider yourself a nice person? I think I'm pretty nice. 51 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: You're pretty nice. I think you are, too, But what 52 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: does that mean to you? I mean, and I'm answering 53 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: more in the professional realm, because I think that's kind 54 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: of more what we're referring to. I think sometimes, if anything, 55 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm a little too approachable, which can backfire because then 56 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: I feel like, okay, well there's two of us in charge. 57 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: But I'm somehow getting all the kind of last minute 58 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: oops text because people are not as scared to maybe 59 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: tell me something. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's age, 60 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's experience. I am, you know, our guest spoiler 61 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: alert does mention empathy. I think I'm a pretty empathetic 62 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: person for whatever reason. So yeah, I think I'm I 63 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: think professionally I'm pretty nice. But have you ever tried 64 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: to maybe change that niceness up a little bit? Obviously 65 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: you're still a you know, straight shooter and trustworthy and 66 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: never going to be a jerk about it, but if 67 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: you feel people are pushing you a little too far, 68 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: if you're getting too many of those like ooh, not 69 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: sure I'm going to get to it kind of text 70 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: from somebody who really needs to get to it, Like, 71 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: how do you deal with that? Yeah? I did. I 72 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: struggle a little bit. I will snap at some point, 73 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: and usually I don't know that I'm not at a person, 74 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: but sometimes at a situation like I'll realize that something's 75 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: not working. I mean, hey, this is a personal goal 76 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: of mine. I think I would like to be better 77 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: at addressing that sort of thing in people that I supervise, 78 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: and as program director, that is a big part of 79 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: my job, and it already was to some extent. Yeah, 80 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: but I still think it can be done in a 81 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: nice way. And again, not to give away some of 82 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: the things we'll be finding out, but our guest gave 83 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: some great suggestions as to how to start some of 84 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: these difficult conversations. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm I mean, 85 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: I'm definitely an introvert, and so I'm sort of naturally 86 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: less like people oriented, and as we'll find out in 87 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: the question section, I probably have a less of that 88 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: obvious thing of knowing what people are thinking about me 89 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: and reacting much to it, which has its upsides and downsides. 90 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: The upside is you can write stuff and not really 91 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: worry that much about what people are going to say 92 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: about it, and people will say about man, that's life. 93 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: There are always critics out there, and there's nothing you 94 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: can do about that. The downside, of course, is that 95 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: it's a social skill to really care situation what people 96 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: are taking from it, And so I've tried to become 97 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: more aware, certainly in situations where I have had to 98 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: give feedback like how is this coming across? What is 99 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: the other person thinking? You know, why would they want 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: to listen to this? Let's make sure we think about 101 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: what's in it for them. But you know, I always 102 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: would try to be kind and considerate. I think I 103 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: just i've yelling never works. I just don't think of 104 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: any situation of like adults where the yelling actually works. 105 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: And I've seen adults like yell at other adults in situations. 106 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: It's just it doesn't reflect well on the person doing it. 107 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: Like I mean, maybe for one moment you can get 108 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: the other person to pay attention to you and you know, 109 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: recognize that it's seriousness, but everyone else in the room 110 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: is just like, WHOA, this person is out of control, Like, 111 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: I don't think they're trustworthy. Yeah, there's essentially no role 112 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: for yelling in the clinical environment. And you know that, 113 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, several decades ago, actually I think it was 114 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: fairly common. For the record, I feel that you have 115 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: always been very nice to me. Well, of course, yes, 116 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: of course in our professional dealings with Yeah, yeah, no, 117 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: it's of course, of course. And I've you know, over 118 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: the years, worked with so many wonderful people that I 119 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: don't think that it's ever you know, people very tolerant 120 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: of my lack of social skills, which has been a wonderful, 121 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: wonderful thing that I always wind up leaning on other 122 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: people for that. But I definitely am trying to get better. 123 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: And we're going to hear from fran about how she 124 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: uses niceness as her superpower to achieve the success that 125 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: she is achieved. Well, Sarah and I are excited to 126 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: welcome Fran Hauser to the podcast today. Fran is the 127 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: author of a great book that's called The Myth of 128 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: the Nice Girl, and so we're going to learn all 129 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: about why it's a myth that being a nice girl 130 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: is a problem. So, Fran, could you introduce yourself to 131 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: our listeners? Sure? Hi, everyone, thank you for having me. 132 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: So I'm Fran Hauser. I've had a very long career 133 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: in business. I was in media for a really long time. 134 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: I was president of Digital at Timing, and for the 135 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: last seven years I've been startup investing and advising, which 136 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: I am loving. And I wrote The Myth of the 137 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: Nice Girl about a year ago. It actually came out 138 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: last April to basically debunk the myth that if you're 139 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: nice at work, that it means that you're weak and 140 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: that you're not going to get ahead. Yeah, and so 141 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: you would went through a lot of the various time 142 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: properties over the year, right, I would think it was 143 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: a stint at like people or movie Phone or all 144 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: the different parts of the empire, right. Yeah. So I 145 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: actually started a movie phone in the late nineteen nineties 146 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: and when it was still a privately helped company, and 147 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: then movie Phone was actually acquired by AOL, so I 148 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: ran movie Phone as a division of AOL. And then 149 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: AOL and Time Warner merged, and Time Inc. Was one 150 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: of the divisions that we got, you know, to work 151 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: with when I was at AOL, and I fell in 152 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: love with all of the people that worked there, and 153 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: I just you know, those brands right like Time and 154 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: Fortune and People in Style. So it was just such 155 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: an honor really to be recruited to go to go 156 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: work at Time Inc. I spent ten years there and 157 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: I spent you know, all of that time in digital, 158 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: so I didn't come from the print side, which made 159 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: me interesting and different for sure. And I would say, 160 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: really the biggest success that I had there was launching 161 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: People dot com, so People Magazine's website into a really big, 162 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: thriving business. So you know, when I first started there, 163 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: it was really more of a marketing channel for the magazine, 164 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: so it was all about getting people to subscribe to 165 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: the magazine. But we you know, we built this incredible 166 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: team and it ended up being one of the biggest 167 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: businesses and most profitable businesses at the company by the 168 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: time I moved on. That you were sorry, Sara had 169 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: a cool time to be in that field, like so 170 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: much change and you were probably nice and young and 171 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: fresh too at the right time. So that, wow, what 172 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: an amazing opportunity. I was just going to also ask, 173 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: since our listeners are always curious, like, did you build 174 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: your family around that time? After that time? I know 175 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: you have a couple of children now, Yeah, so my 176 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: kids are seven and eight and a half, and so 177 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: let's see, they were born towards the end of my 178 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: tenure at Time, inc. I was at Time for about 179 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: ten years, and you know, having kids is life changing, 180 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: to say the least, and it really just sort of 181 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: forced me to think about my professional life and what 182 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: I wanted that to look like. And I really wanted 183 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: to create a life for myself where I had the 184 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: time that I could spend with them, that I could 185 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: spend with the boys. So that really that led me 186 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: to working for myself. You know. So I left Time 187 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: about I guess it was about six years ago, and 188 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, and since then, I've been I've been doing 189 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: my startup, investing in advising and writing and know thought 190 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: leadership stuff, and it's just been incredible, Like I just 191 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: I feel so privileged that I have this like luxury 192 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: of choosing the projects that I want to work on 193 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: and the people that I want to work with, and 194 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, just really being able to to create the 195 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: time and space to be there for the boys. It's 196 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: just it's been so wonderful. I don't know if I 197 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: could ever go back to work at a big company. 198 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: You know, Like I loved it while I was there. 199 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: I loved it. I did it for a really really 200 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: long time. You know. I was I was at PwC, 201 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: I was at Ernst and Young, I was a Coca Cola, 202 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, even before I moved over into media, and 203 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: I think you know, it was it was so it 204 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: was just incredible in so many ways. I had so 205 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: many wonderful mentors and champions, and I really became, you know, 206 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: a leader. I really grew into myself as a leader. 207 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: But now, like I'm liking this this next chapter, you know, 208 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: which is really more are kind of just working on 209 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: my own, having my own personal platform. It was scary, though, 210 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you I've ever worked 211 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: for a big company. It was really scary leaving time 212 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: because it was such a platform for me, you know, 213 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: like I could I could pick up the phone and 214 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: call anybody and get a call back from them. And 215 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: the idea of like, oh wow, now I'm going to 216 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: be out on my own, are people still going to 217 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: call me back? That was really it was really scary. 218 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: It was but because I had built such an incredible 219 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: supportive network of people outside of the company that really 220 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: allowed me to transition from media to investor. And you know, 221 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: and thought, leader, well, you've just had so many transitions 222 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: in your career. I mean, that's what's so cool about 223 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: your career journey. Because I'm sure when you were taking 224 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: this job at movie Phone, which for our listeners who 225 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: are maybe on the younger side and are like, what 226 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: on earth is that? You know, it's before you could 227 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: order movie tickets via the internet, you could order them 228 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: via phone, and so this is what phone was doing. 229 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: But before movies Phone, by the way, it was the newspaper. 230 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Remember pulling out the newspaper and looking up the shows 231 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: and looking up the showtimes and looking up the showtimes. 232 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: So but you take a job at this company and like, 233 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: you have no idea they're going to get acquired by AOL, 234 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: which is then going to merge with Time Warner, which 235 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: is then gonna you know, mean that you're going to 236 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: be the head of digital for Time. I mean, it's 237 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: just it's such a very thing and definitely seizing opportunities 238 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: that come to you. And through this all, of course, 239 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: you've been a very nice person, which is what we 240 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: want to talk about today. So, you know, I read 241 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: the book Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office, as 242 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure you have as well, or at least heard 243 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: of it, and there's definitely the story out there that 244 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: that being nice is a problem, and particularly for women. 245 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: And so why is this story out there? Like what 246 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: is that sort of fear that people have that you're 247 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: trying to address. Yeah, well, I think there's this this 248 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, regressive stereotype of what a successful leader looks 249 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: like that's just really kind of elved, you know, over 250 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: the years. And when we think about a successful leader, 251 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: when we picture that person, first of all, it's usually 252 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: a man, and it's usually somebody who is tough and 253 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: competitive and demanding and smart and by the way, all 254 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: of those are good things. They're all good things, but 255 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: we rarely picture someone who's kind. And I know, for me, 256 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: like the way that I've led over the course of 257 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: my career is I've led with both kindness and strength, 258 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: and I really believe that those two things they're not 259 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: mutually exclusive, and the most effective leaders lead with both. Yet, 260 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, especially early on in my career, I was 261 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: told many times by bosses and mentors like, you need 262 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 1: to toughen up. You're too nice. You know, if you 263 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: don't toughen up, you're not going to get ahead. And 264 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: I remember like having these conversations around like, but why 265 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: am I not going to get ahead if I'm like, 266 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: I actually believe that that being nice is is is 267 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: really powerful. And I would share stories as part of 268 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: those conversations around how I thought being nice was actually 269 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: helpful to me, Like I might talk about, you know, 270 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: I was able to develop a relationship with this person 271 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: because I showed that I really cared about them and 272 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: I was able to establish trust, and then that relationship 273 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: ended up resulting in this like really big deal. And 274 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: so I was always like, throughout the course of my career, 275 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: trying to change the conversation by using like real life examples. 276 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: And I also had a lot of young women coming 277 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: to me saying, my boss told me I'm too nice 278 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: and that I need to be tougher, you know. How 279 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: do I respond to that? And I would say, you know, 280 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: respond by asking like, how is it specifically holding you back? 281 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: Because often they're not going to be able to answer 282 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: that question. They kind of use it as like a 283 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: throwaway term, you know. Yeah. So that's been the thing 284 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: for me, is that I just I always get asked, 285 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: how can you be so nice and still be successful? 286 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm always asked. I've always been asked that, and I've 287 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: spent so much of my career kind of talking about 288 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: it and giving advice, and it just when I looked 289 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: around to see what books were out there on the topic, 290 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: all that I saw was books like Nice Girls Don't 291 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: Get the Corner Office. So I really felt like there 292 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: was there was white space for the book. We'll be 293 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: bringing back Fran for more conversation in a moment, but 294 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: first a word from our sponsor today, Lola. I've been 295 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: intrigued by Lola for quite some time. I love their 296 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: modern approach to feminine care. Lola is a female founded 297 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: company offering a line of organic cotton tampons, paths, and 298 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: other feminine care products. They're really big on natural ingredients 299 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: with the idea that we shouldn't have to accept a 300 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: long list of chemicals when it comes to things we 301 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: put into our body. 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Well, 320 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: thank you to Lola, and now let's go back to 321 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: our guest to talk about what being nice means and 322 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: how it's different from being a pushover. That's it's a 323 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: really good point. So when I think of someone who's 324 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: nice at work, I think of someone who is emphathetic, 325 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: who's collaborative, and who has the confidence that there are 326 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: enough opportunities to go around. So it's really like the 327 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: abundance mindset. It's very important that you know that you 328 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: don't veer into that people pleasing territory and into that 329 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: pushover territory. And I talk a lot about that in 330 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: the book, Right, like when I think about somebody who 331 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: is helpful, that's that's a great thing. But you don't 332 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: want to be subservient, right Like being subservient is where 333 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: you're basically just saying yes to everything and you're not 334 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: setting boundaries around the things that are really important to you, 335 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: around your priorities, right because you just want to please everyone, 336 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: so you're just saying yes to everything, or you know, 337 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: I think another kind of symptom of being a pushover 338 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: people pleasers when it's time to make a decision and 339 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: you're so busy getting buy in from everyone that you're 340 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: not actually making the decision. So it's being really hyper 341 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: aware of your behaviors and your intention right, and really 342 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: thinking about, wait, why am I Why am I saying 343 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: yes to this? Am I saying yes because I want 344 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: to please this person? Or am I saying yes because 345 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: it strategically makes a lot of sense and it's the 346 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: right thing to do if I want to be effective? 347 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: So you know, it's definitely a fine line and really 348 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: important to be aware of your intention and why you're 349 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: doing what you're doing. Yeah, I just had a thought 350 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: as being nice something that actually it may be different 351 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: on a gender level. I mean, I know females are 352 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: certainly judged more harshly if they are not particularly nice. 353 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: So does this apply equally do you feel like for 354 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: male and female leaders. So it's interesting because when I 355 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: was writing the book, I always felt that women got 356 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: more of a bad rap if they were too nice 357 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: at work, whereas for men, it always felt like if 358 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: somebody said, oh, he's so nice, it's like, oh, he's 359 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: really smart and he's also nice. It's like it's a 360 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: great thing, you know. But that's so funny because I 361 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: feel like women also get it on the other side 362 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: more easily. They do. They do, And that's really the 363 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: whole point of the book is that if you're too nice, 364 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: you're a pushover. If you're too tough, you're a bitch. 365 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: So like it's the struggle, right, it's the struggle and 366 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: every thing line between. It's a very thin line. It's 367 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: a very thin line. And like, you know, I talk 368 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: a lot about how like it's possible to care for 369 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: your team and also have high expectations of them, right, 370 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: that's kindness and strength, Like you care about them and 371 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: you're also going to have really high expectations. Or like 372 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: when you're making a decision, yes, get input from people, 373 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, like you have 374 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: to make the decision, right, you have to make the call, 375 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: and you have to be able to stand in your 376 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: own two shoes. So but going back to the whole 377 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: like men and women thing, what's been interesting for me 378 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: to see is that so many men have read the book. 379 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: Even though I've read it, I've wrote it for women. 380 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: So many men have read the book and they say, 381 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: you know what this applies to us too, So I've 382 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: heard that quite a bit from them, that they they're 383 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: you know, they're very cognizant of how they're showing up 384 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: in the workplace, and that they don't want to come 385 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: across as being too nice because they don't they don't 386 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: want to be thought of as a pushover. So they're 387 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: struggling with a lot of the same things that that 388 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: we're struggling with, is what I'm hearing now. So I 389 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: feel like my point of view has changed a little 390 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: bit on that. So, friend, one of the things I 391 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: loved about your book is is that you tell so 392 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: many stories from your own career, So I wonder if 393 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: you could share one with our listeners about how being 394 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: nice was your superpower, that you were able to do 395 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: something that was seen as very complex or challenging that 396 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: wouldn't have happened if you didn't have this level of 397 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: empathy and team building skills that you had. So a 398 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: really good example I think for my career is when 399 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 1: I got my first big promotion, when you know, when 400 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: I was a Coca Cola and I was promoted into 401 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: this role where I was going to be director of 402 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: finance for Coca Cola Enterprises, New York division. It was 403 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: a really big division. It was a five hundred million 404 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: dollar revenue division. I was going to be overseeing one 405 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: hundred and forty people. And I was promoted over a 406 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: lot of other people that had way more experience than 407 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: I had. They had been there for a lot longer. 408 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: And I think people were really surprised, truthfully, I know 409 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: I was. I was really surprised when I got the promotion. 410 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: And when I asked my boss why me, what he 411 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: had to say was he said things like, you know, Fran, 412 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: You're able to influence people to get things done, and 413 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: you have a team that's so loyal that will follow 414 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: you anywhere, and you've built this incredible network in really 415 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: strong relationships. And when I took a step back and 416 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: I kind of took all of that in, it struck 417 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 1: me that he didn't say anything at all about my 418 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: technical skills or my functional skills. He was so focused 419 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: on my relational skills, and he felt that those were 420 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: going to be the things that were going to be 421 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: really important in terms of being successful in this role. 422 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: And that's what he looking for, and you know, in 423 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: the right candidate. And when I think about those things, 424 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: for me, it's like all about coming back to being 425 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: a nice person and like being caring and like, you know, 426 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: just just really like caring about connecting with other people 427 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: and amplifying their voices and elevating them and building relationships 428 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: and all of that. So I think that's like a 429 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: real example of how being nice was helpful to me 430 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: in advancing, you know, throughout my career. And then I 431 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: can think of so many different examples of how being 432 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: nice was helpful in doing something that really created value 433 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: for the company. I mean, I think about how many 434 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: times the company that I worked for was stuck in 435 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: a negotiation and I was asked to come in to 436 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: get it unstuck. And really, I mean it's not rocket science. 437 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: All I did was I came in and I asked 438 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: the other side what's important to you, Like what do 439 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: you need to get out of this negotiation? And you know, 440 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: what is the most important thing to you? And I listened, 441 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: I actively listened, and I established trust because I showed 442 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: the other side that I really cared about what they 443 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: needed to get out of this. So there were so 444 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: many examples like that where like we were stuck, and 445 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 1: then how do you get unstuck by establishing trust and 446 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: by listening and by being empathetic. I mean, I think 447 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: empathy is one of the most undervalued traits in a 448 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: in a leader, you know. I just I use it 449 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: all the time in a very natural and a very 450 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: organic way. But if you think about, like, if you're 451 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: disagreeing with someone, if you're showing empathy, you're more likely 452 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: to come to a shared understanding, right if you're if 453 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: you're asking for a raise, if you put yourself in 454 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: your manager's shoes and think about, like, what do they 455 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: stand to lose if they can't hold on to you, 456 00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: they can't retain you, you know, or what is the 457 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: com companies stand to lose. So I think empathy is 458 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: a huge part of it, and it's a big part 459 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 1: of being nice for me. Yeah, definitely. I mean, just 460 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: something as simple as asking people about their weekend. I mean, 461 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: you know, there's so many people who think that's like 462 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: a total waste of time, and yet here you're getting 463 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: a promotion because you're the person who's asking everyone about 464 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: their weekend and then listening when they answer yes, and 465 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: even imagine that and even I don't know about you, guys, 466 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: but like I know, sometimes I'm going into a conversation, 467 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: I have thirty minutes it's a phone call or it's 468 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: in person, and I'm thinking about, Okay, here are the 469 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: three things that I have to get out of this call, right, 470 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: because we're all like so, you know, booked back to 471 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: back and all of that, and I have to stop 472 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: myself and I have to remind myself that when I 473 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: start the conversation, I have to start it, and I 474 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: want to start it by asking a question, and you know, 475 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: by getting the other person to open up, whether it's 476 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: about their weekend or just how they're doing, or I mean, 477 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: just spending two minutes making that connection and establishing trust 478 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: at the beginning of that conversation will make the remaining 479 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: twenty eight minutes so much more productive and a lot 480 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: I think often because we all have so much on 481 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: our plates, we just forget to do that or we 482 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: don't take the time to do that. It's so funny. 483 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: It makes me think how I often arrive Monday morning 484 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: and my staff will be there and I'll start like 485 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: talking about like what we have to do that day, 486 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: and then but the good thing is I usually before 487 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: I've I've done this so many times where I walk 488 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: back to my office and then I'm like, oh my god, 489 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: I didn't ask you about a weekend, and I'll like 490 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: pivot back and be like, wait, well, why did you 491 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: do this time? I'm trussing my instincts that that is 492 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: a very important. Yeah, I kind of exactly, Fran. You 493 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: face some really difficult situations in your career as well. 494 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: I mean you've had to lay people off, You've had 495 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: to fire people. So I mean obviously nice people have 496 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: to do these things too as they rise up the 497 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: ranks of their organization. So how how does a nice 498 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: girl lay people off? How does a nice girl fire people? 499 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: And how did your niceness help you in these situations? Yeah, 500 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: it's it's you know, it never gets easy. Like I 501 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: think about how many people I've had to lay off, 502 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, over the years, or how many people I've 503 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: even just had to give like really tough feedback, right, 504 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: delivering that tough like you know, in a performance review 505 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: or whatever. And a big part of it is, well, 506 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: let's start with just you know, with with having to 507 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: lay people off. You know, I always start the conversation 508 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: by saying, this is going to be a really difficult conversation, 509 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, as opposed to just like launching into we're 510 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: restructuring the company and blah blah blah. Right, so just acknowledging, 511 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: acknowledging taking a second and acknowledging that, yes, this is 512 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: going to be a difficult conversation, really being present for them, 513 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, in that those few minutes, because that's really 514 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: all it ends up being unfortunate. You know, when you 515 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: lay somebody up, it's a pretty short conversation. But the 516 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: non verbal stuff is really important, like the eye contact 517 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: and really showing them that you are listening and that 518 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: you do care, and if it's warranted, if you know, 519 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: if it feels genuine and authentic, offering to provide a reference, 520 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: you know, offering to be helpful to them as they 521 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: as they look for their next thing. I mean, I 522 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: think you know, all of that is really important. The 523 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: one thing I do want to share though, when it 524 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: comes to giving tough feedback that I've learned is really 525 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: important is when we were researching the book, we were 526 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: studying the way that the brain works. And you know, 527 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: there's a part of your brain called the amygdala that's 528 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: all about the sensing threat. And when its senses threat, 529 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: it can be physical emotional psychological it triggers a fight 530 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: flight or freeze. And it's really important to understand that 531 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 1: when you have to deliver difficult news or tough feedback, 532 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: because if you start the conversation in a way that's threatening, 533 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 1: the person is automatically going to shut down. You know, 534 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: they're just it's not going to be a productive conversation. 535 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: So the way that you start the conversation is everything. 536 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: So you know, I even think about like giving performance reviews. 537 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: Over the years, I found that it really helps to 538 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: start the conversation by saying something like I'm your biggest fan, 539 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm here to support you and I 540 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 1: want to see you be successful in your career. And 541 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: if you start the conversation by saying something like that, 542 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: it just puts the person at ease because they feel 543 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: like you're on their side, you know, as opposed to 544 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: starting the conversation by saying something like, look, we have 545 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: some things we need to talk about right away. There 546 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: amygdala is going to be like whoa like threat threat threat, 547 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: So the way that you start the conversation is very important. 548 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: And I also I also like to say that when 549 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: you do give the feedback, like be very specific and 550 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: clear about what the feedback is. Because I once had 551 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: a manager who is so nice that her feedback to me, 552 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: she was sugarcoating it and it was so wishy washy 553 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: that I didn't really understand what she wanted me to do. 554 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: Like I walked out of that conversation feeling like, I 555 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: know she wants me to do something, I don't know 556 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: what it is. So being like clear, you know, after 557 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: you've framed the conversation in a really positive way, having 558 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: that clarity is also it's really important and you owe 559 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: that to the person as well. Yeah, No, I think 560 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: that's very important. And again it's that trust issue, and 561 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: you've built up the trust over the years so that 562 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: when you are giving critical feedback, they're willing to listen, 563 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: whereas if somebody doesn't think you're on their team, they 564 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: just shut down and they're out and absolutely nothing will 565 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: get through. And it all comes back to trust, right 566 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: It all that, like relationships are built based on trust. 567 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: So it's even like little things like doing what you 568 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: say you're going to do. That's how you get people 569 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: to trust you, Right, you say you're going to do 570 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: something and you actually do it. In the startup world. 571 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: I hear pitches all the time, and and you know, 572 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: after we get you know, after we get through the 573 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: pitch deck, often there'll be some follow ups like I'll 574 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: ask for whatever, like one or two things that the 575 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: founder needs to follow up on, and you would be 576 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: so surprised to see like how many times like they 577 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: don't follow up, like they don't like and do you 578 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: think I'm going to invest in that in that founder? No, right, 579 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: because like there's no trust. And then I'm thinking if 580 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: they're not going to follow up with me, like what 581 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: about their clients? What about the customer? What about right? 582 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: So it's when you say you're going to do something, 583 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: follow through. It's a really simple rule. That's pretty amazing 584 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: to think that someone who's asking you to invest in 585 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: their business would then not I think they would have 586 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: their pen out with little check blocks and maybe like 587 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: on it, that's on it, on it the next day 588 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: or you know. The other thing I see, which is 589 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: which is interesting is and this is a I've seen 590 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: there's a gender dynamic here for sure, where women will 591 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: say that they're going to get me an updated deck, 592 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: and it takes them to get it to me because 593 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: they want to make it so perfect, whereas like guys 594 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: will get it to me the next day, you know, 595 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be perfect. They're more like 596 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: about the substance and the content as opposed to the 597 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: form and the presentation. But I do think as women, 598 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: we have this like crazy thing about perfection and you know, 599 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: how it has to be all like tied up in 600 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: a bow and look perfect. Do you guys see that? 601 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: Is like, well, we actually have a it's not this episode, 602 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: but we had a listener question on exactly this some 603 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: female scientist who it sounds like was being a bit 604 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: over conscientious and I know I'm familiar with there's actually 605 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: data on that that you know, and that's it's thought 606 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: that maybe that's why women do better in school and 607 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: then struggle later on. Yeah, well, and especially this person, 608 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, transitioning into industry, where in academia there'd been 609 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: sort of a different timeline and expectations where when you're 610 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: launching a product kind of need to do it at 611 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: some point, and so I think that that was the 612 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: struggle there. But I'm glad you pivoted to the investing 613 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: part because we definitely wanted to talk about that too, 614 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: and how being nice plays out there and may help 615 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: you because you know, I'm sure most people do not 616 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: think of seeing Shark Tank or something. They don't really 617 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: think of early stage investing as being particularly the realm 618 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: for nice people, except for the you know, the token 619 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: nice character on Shark Tank. Right, So how does how 620 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: does niceness play out there and you know, help you 621 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: as you are evaluating companies and trying to keep your 622 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: eye on the bottom line, but also trying to be 623 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: very encouraging to founders as well. Well. I think, you know, 624 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: a big part of it for me is that when 625 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: I do make an investment or when I take on 626 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: an advising relationship, I really see myself as a partner 627 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: to the founder and it's a long term relationship, right 628 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: that hopefully that is how you're getting into. So I 629 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: actually believe that, you know, it's not just about writing 630 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: the check, like I can write the check, but it's 631 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: more about how am I going to be there as 632 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: a mentor, as a champion, as a supporter, as an advisor. 633 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: I want to be the person that, you know, the 634 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: first person that they call, like when they're struggling, because 635 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: founders struggle, right, Every business struggles and often founders are 636 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: so afraid to share bad news with investors and with advisors, 637 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: like they they want to come, you know, come across 638 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: like everything is great, everything is going great. You know, 639 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: they send the monthly update, everything is perfect, and you know, 640 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: I really encourage founders to be transparent and to talk 641 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: about their struggles, and it's it's sort of like a 642 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: selling point, I think for me because when you're when 643 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: you're entering into these relationships, it's not just the investor 644 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: that's deciding, it's the founder that's deciding. Right, is this 645 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: the kind of investor that I want on the team. So, 646 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, a big part of who I am, a 647 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: big part of my brand is like I'm you know, 648 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: I am to be there for you. It's not just 649 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: about it's not just about writing the check. Yeah that's great. Well, 650 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: Fran this has been awesome. I mean, I know you 651 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: say we get spoiled by self employment, Like if I 652 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: was ever going to work for somebody'd want to be 653 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: somebody like you. So thank you. Definitely admire your career. 654 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: You So we we always do our Love of the 655 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: Week segment. Sarah and I can go first to something 656 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,439 Speaker 1: that is you know, being good for us right now 657 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: and then and then we'll hear from you. So, Sarah, 658 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: what do you have for us this week? I have 659 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: the fact that many of these school purchasing opportunities have 660 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,919 Speaker 1: moved online. I know, we spoke curiously about the school 661 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: supply box and I'm happy to say our new school system, 662 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: it was like a one click thing and they're delivering 663 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: it to the room so I don't even have to 664 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: pick it up and really have that, by the way, 665 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: and I love it. Yeah, and we just we just 666 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: did that for spirit wear just last week. So if 667 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: you you know, like the T shirts and the hoodies 668 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: and the shorts, so it's it's on line now. Amazing, amazing, Yes, No, 669 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: definitely better than it's like sending in money the kid, 670 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 1: which is you know, I've discovered not a foolproof delivery 671 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: nothing so so mine. You know. This is airing in 672 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: the early summer. And my love of the week is 673 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: Day's ice Cream and Ocean Grove, which we will be 674 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: visiting many times. We love to go to the Jersey Shore. 675 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: Those of us who are up in the northeast here 676 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: wind up at the Jersey Shore a lot. And this 677 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: particular ice cream store is a perennial favorite, and summer 678 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: would not feel summer like summer without it. So I'm 679 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: really looking forward to some upcoming visits to that. How 680 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: about you, Fran Well, So the thing that's top of 681 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: mind right now is I was actually at Crig Curig 682 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: doctor Pepper's offices in Massachusetts yesterday doing a talk about 683 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: the book. And I am a huge Curerig fan, Like 684 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: I love Carrig, and we have two we have two 685 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: machines in our house here. We have a little ski 686 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: conto up in Vermont. We have one there. So it 687 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: was so fun to actually like go into the office. 688 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: They had this big pod wall they had where they 689 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: had probably like you know, fifty different kinds of pods 690 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: of coffee, and they actually they gifted me, uh and 691 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: it's a brand called Laughing Man Coffee. That's actually it's 692 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: by Hugh Jackman. So Hugh Jackman partner, he's in the 693 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: coffee business. I know he's in the coffee business. Now 694 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: we've partnered with the Carrig. It's fair trade coffee and 695 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 1: I actually I tried it this morning and it is 696 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: so good. So I just have Kirig on my mind. 697 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: D totally. Hugh Jackman has total Coffee Jackman is now 698 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: into coffee related love with the WEEKND. We're always Frians 699 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: of that. All right, well, Fran, thank you so much 700 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: for being here with us, and everyone should check out 701 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: the Myth of the Nice Girl Frandhuser's book and where 702 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: else can our listeners find you Franhauser dot com and 703 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: on social media at fran underscore Houser beautiful. Thank you 704 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: so much, Fran, thank you. Okay, so that was great. 705 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed listening to her, and I feel like 706 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: I learned a lot in a short time. For our 707 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: Q and A segment, I actually pulled this off of 708 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: Laura's blog. It was not a specific question addressed to 709 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: the podcast, but I'm going to keep the name anonymous, 710 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: and I don't think this person will mind us using 711 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: her question. She writes, and this was actually in response 712 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: to Laura talking about a weekend she spent or maybe 713 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: it was a day where she was reading on the 714 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: sidelines of her kids and the books that she was 715 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 1: able to finish, which by the way, is often quite 716 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: a lot. Okay, so she writes, I want to ask 717 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: about the time you spend reading a lot of kids 718 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: activity do you ever get dirty looks or even comments 719 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: from other parents, or are you treated differently as a 720 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: result of excusing yourself from the activity and not just 721 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: hanging out with the other parents. My kids are in 722 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: a variety of activities and I often bring a book 723 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: to read, but almost never read it. It feels rude 724 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: to the other parents who are chatting and building relationships 725 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: and camaraderie, and at least to some degree, I make 726 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: myself fee left out. She talks about how there's sometimes 727 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: all day tournaments where there's periods of downtime and you know, 728 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,439 Speaker 1: not a time, not a problem to spend a few 729 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: minutes here or there, but she feels like being physically 730 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: present but not engaged with the group is is hard, 731 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: and she mentions that when your kids are younger, you 732 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: want to get to know the other parents because your 733 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 1: kids are starting to form friendships. When they get older, 734 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,919 Speaker 1: the parent relationships can be part of the kids' statuses. 735 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: What do you and your readers think about this dynamic 736 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: and what do you recommend? I was drawn to this 737 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: question because I will admit that I have had the 738 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: exact same issue, and often I would much I do 739 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: want to read my book, especially if it's you know, 740 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: a day that I was in the office all day 741 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: talking to people and the last thing I want to 742 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: do is continue to socialize, and I'll bring a book 743 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,760 Speaker 1: and I'll try to look busy, but it never usually works. 744 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: And then same as this person. So I tend to 745 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer, I tend to feel guilty, 746 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: and I just put the book down, and then I 747 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: feel like I didn't get that time that I could 748 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: have had on the sideline. So Laura, tell us your secrets. 749 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: My secrets, Well, one is just to disappear, because if 750 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: you're in the situation where you are able to read, 751 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: like it's presumably your kid is not like in the goal, 752 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: you know, keeping the soccer ball out of it right 753 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: at that moment, like you're not reading it during a 754 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: time where there's active stuff that you would be watching, right, 755 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: So that means you could potentially go somewhere where other 756 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: people can't see you. I think this was posted after 757 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: the camping trip where I went and read in my tent, 758 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: like nobody knows where you are, Like why not go 759 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: read in the tent? Right? Like I mean, I feel 760 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,959 Speaker 1: like there's lots of time you can interact of course, 761 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: and some of that's going to be while you all 762 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: are watching and sort of those active moments of the 763 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: kid's activity, so you could disappear. The other thing I've 764 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: also saying is, for some reason, a book is reacted 765 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: differently to than your phone. Parents are on their phones 766 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: at events all the time, and everyone's just like, oh, 767 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: they're just on their phone. Maybe they're just checking their 768 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: email or something. You know. I don't think people react 769 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: the same way to you being on your phone as 770 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: they would to you pulling out a paperback. So just 771 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: read on your phone. I mean that's honestly, Like I 772 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: pull out the phone and I'm looking at the Kindle 773 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: app and I can read, you know, all sorts of 774 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: stuff in a five minute chunk or a ten minute chunker, 775 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: you know, longer, if it's in a situation where that 776 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: is warranted. I think also just I mean, these some 777 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: of these events are long enough that you just have 778 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: to think about how you want to spend your life. 779 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: And I love meeting people and chatting with them, and 780 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: I definitely do that, and you know, try and encourage 781 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: those friendships, like I'd like to know my kids friends parents. 782 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: But I think there can be a balance too, and 783 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 1: so you know, you can talk for half an hour 784 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: and then disappear, like they don't know where you are. 785 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: Maybe you're in the bathroom, but maybe you're also in 786 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: your car reading. So I would be cognizant that you 787 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: can split it. I just don't know that there's as 788 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: much judgment as people think there is. Like I continually 789 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: come back to this idea that we are all in 790 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: our own little world. Like if I saw a parent 791 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: on a phone at an event, I wouldn't think, like, 792 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: this person is rude and doesn't want to talk to 793 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: me and they're horrible and our kids should never be friends. 794 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,439 Speaker 1: I should never have a played it with it. That's 795 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: not what I'm thinking, Like, Oh, I guess they're just 796 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: doing something right now. If I need to ask something, 797 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: I want to say hello, I'll do it in a bit, 798 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, That's what I'm thinking. I think my answer 799 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: has got to be to disappear. Yeah, because I'm actually 800 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: I'm having flashbacks to like this class which was drop 801 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: off and they were both in it at the same time, 802 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: and you can't watch the class even if you wanted to, 803 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: you have to leave the premises. But instead I made 804 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: the mistake of like sitting on a bench in the 805 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: front of the gym and calculation that I did not 806 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: really feel like spending an hour talking to ended up 807 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 1: spending Now we're talking to me, talking at me. Really, 808 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: So if I had just gone to my car, the 809 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: whole crisis might have been been solved. You would have 810 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: had that hour of your life to do whatever you wished. Yeah, 811 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,800 Speaker 1: so disappearing and if disappearing isn't possible, using your phone 812 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: for the things that you would have been using your 813 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: paperback for can work as well. So yeah, well this 814 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,760 Speaker 1: has been the best of both worlds. We've been talking 815 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: with fran Hauser about how to get ahead as a 816 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: nice girl, and now here we are answering the questions 817 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: about how as a nice person to read your book 818 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: and get some peace and quiet an event for your kids, 819 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: which hopefully, yes, people is possibly judging you less than 820 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: you think they are. We'll be back next week with 821 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. 822 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 823 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can 824 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura Vandercam dot com This has 825 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 826 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.