Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who
Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff, your weekly podcast that actually comes out
Speaker 1: twice a week, and yet I've been introducing it as
Speaker 1: a weekly podcast for however long because in my head,
Speaker 1: two episodes is one episode, because I do it by
Speaker 1: weeks and that's the way that my brain is able
Speaker 1: to handle it. My name is Margaret Kiljoy and my
Speaker 1: guest today is Alison Ruskin. How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good. How are you doing on our second episode
Speaker 2: of the day.
Speaker 1: I know, well, you're the author of Save the Date,
Speaker 1: which came out yesterday, and I just want to ask
Speaker 1: how did the release go.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I don't believe in manifesting at all, but
Speaker 2: for a hot second, I'll pretend to, and I'll say
Speaker 2: it went so well amazing, it took the world by storm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and probably nothing world endingly bad happened randomly on
Speaker 1: the day that your book came out.
Speaker 2: Well, god, I hope not.
Speaker 1: Oh, I just did the current administration and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: I know, Well, probably something rather bad happened is every day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But you know, the whole weird subtitle of this
Speaker 1: show is that when there's bad things happening, there's also
Speaker 1: good things happening, and we pay attention to the good things,
Speaker 1: even if we have to understand the bad things to
Speaker 1: understand how the good things are related to the bad things.
Speaker 1: That's my ontological viewpoint that makes the world into good
Speaker 1: and bad. Don't question that too much. But instead we
Speaker 1: can say that our producer is Sophie who isn't here today,
Speaker 1: and our audio engineer is Rory hi Rory hi Ror,
Speaker 1: and our theme music was written for ud By Unwoman.
Speaker 1: And this is part two of a two parter about
Speaker 1: San Albam, which I did not successfully find out how
Speaker 1: to pronounce, and so usually when I read French, I
Speaker 1: just start dropping letters and hope for the best. And
Speaker 1: I think I'm vaguely better at pronouncing it than i
Speaker 1: am other languages I do try. I hate. One of
Speaker 1: my least favorite things is exactly what I'm doing right now,
Speaker 1: where podcasters are like, I can't pronounce things. It's literally
Speaker 1: your job to figure out how to pronounce things and
Speaker 1: then say them on air, and I try to do that.
Speaker 1: I just want to say I try to do that,
Speaker 1: and I don't always succeed. And so now I'm paying
Speaker 1: way more attention to this and making it all worse.
Speaker 1: But this is part two about a revolutionary in multiple
Speaker 1: senses psychotherapy psychiatric hospital in rural France that changed a
Speaker 1: lot about how psychotherapy and psychiatry can be done and
Speaker 1: sometimes how it has been done. And when we last
Speaker 1: left our hero, he had just crossed the Pyrenees and
Speaker 1: then set up in a concentration camp and then gotten
Speaker 1: out of the concentration camp to go take over, not takeover,
Speaker 1: but go help as Saint Alban and pick up after
Speaker 1: the work of Agnes Messon, who's you know, as I've
Speaker 1: complained about, largely left out of history. So Toskida shows
Speaker 1: up at this place that had a really solid anti
Speaker 1: fascist reformer who had been hard at work for years,
Speaker 1: but she's been gone for about two years at this point.
Speaker 1: The guy who replaced her was genuinely also pretty good
Speaker 1: like he was trying to make things better. He just
Speaker 1: wasn't as like, specifically groundbreaking as other person. The fact
Speaker 1: that he was trying to make the place better is
Speaker 1: probably why he invited an anti authoritarian socialist to come help.
Speaker 1: At the time that Francesque shows up, there there's only
Speaker 1: twenty caretakers and a few nuns. I don't know how
Speaker 1: many patients are there. The nuns were from the Order
Speaker 1: of San Regi, which is the patron saint of at
Speaker 1: risk women and orphans. So he's a world famous psychotherapist
Speaker 1: who's run huge chunks of shit for the Spanish Republic.
Speaker 1: But because he's a foreigner, the French government is like,
Speaker 1: you can be assistant nurse. So his salary and job
Speaker 1: title is assistant nurse. But as far as I can tell,
Speaker 1: he's kind of running the place, or rather, since he's
Speaker 1: pretty into non hierarchy, he's restructuring the place in a
Speaker 1: way in which his ideas are agreed upon by people.
Speaker 1: And when he shows up, he's really impressed by what's
Speaker 1: been started. Because again he doesn't write out the things
Speaker 1: that women have done. He's specifically impressed by the abandoning
Speaker 1: of straight jackets. He's like, oh shit, that's amazing. You know.
Speaker 1: He wanted to change things up right away and keep
Speaker 1: going even further. A lot of the infrastructural changes have
Speaker 1: been done, but there's all this other stuff that he
Speaker 1: wants to do, and people start letting him do it.
Speaker 1: He's never formally in charge, at least as far as
Speaker 1: we're going to get in the story this week. Now
Speaker 1: he's actually named after him, this place. They've changed the
Speaker 1: name of it, it's still around. And one of the
Speaker 1: reasons that people are down to listen to him is
Speaker 1: that he says that the average French person knows how
Speaker 1: badly they fucked up by not helping in the Spanish
Speaker 1: Civil War. Remember, I was saying, how last time, how
Speaker 1: they like they had a popular Front, they're supposed to
Speaker 1: stop fascism, but then didn't do anything when their neighbor
Speaker 1: fell to fascism. You know, he said, quote they all
Speaker 1: carried significant guilt over France's non intervention in the Spanish
Speaker 1: Civil War. They realized after the fact that if the
Speaker 1: French government or workers had supported the republic, if they
Speaker 1: had transformed the popular Front movement into a revolutionary movement
Speaker 1: and not a demand for paid vacations, the whole history
Speaker 1: of the world would have been folded different. Wow.
Speaker 2: That's a sick burn. I know, I know that paid
Speaker 2: vacation's jab. I mean he got to the point.
Speaker 1: To make things a little better for the workers until
Speaker 1: both countries fell to fascism. You cowardly fucks.
Speaker 2: Wow, that is an interesting sliding door moment.
Speaker 1: Right wait, what's a sliding door moment.
Speaker 2: It's the idea of like, if one thing was different,
Speaker 2: you'd like your whole reality would be different.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2: It's also a delightful movie called Sliding Doors.
Speaker 1: No, I think a lot about I spent I spent
Speaker 1: way too much of my time thinking about the spanishivil
Speaker 1: war in general. But like, yeah, if if people had
Speaker 1: prevented Spain from falling, like how much worse the world
Speaker 1: would have gotten. But on the other hand, the other
Speaker 1: thing that I spend way too much of my time
Speaker 1: thinking about, and I could be wrong about this, but okay,
Speaker 1: hear me out. M Franco tried to have a coup.
Speaker 1: He tried to have a simple thing where he became
Speaker 1: in charge. He didn't get it. Instead, he got three
Speaker 1: years of war where he had to fight tooth and
Speaker 1: nail across Spain. And because anti fascists threw down so hard,
Speaker 1: Franco took over a country that was guttedually half his
Speaker 1: army's fucking dead, all of his munitions are spent right
Speaker 1: because of that, that is part of why he doesn't
Speaker 1: enter World War two on the Fascist side is that
Speaker 1: Spain isn't in a position to enter a war. They
Speaker 1: just barely won one. Right. Oh, And now the argument
Speaker 1: is whether or not if Spain had entered the war
Speaker 1: on the side of the Nazis, whether or not the
Speaker 1: Nazis would have won. And I don't know the answer
Speaker 1: to it. But there's a version where some cops and
Speaker 1: some anarchists who don't like each other working together saved
Speaker 1: the fucking world by not letting him take Spain in
Speaker 1: a coup and dragging it out into a war.
Speaker 2: I like this thesis.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: I do too, I'm behind it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like versions where of the things we do,
Speaker 1: even when it looks like we lose, still matter, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well that's a good that's a very good thing
Speaker 2: to hold onto right now in this moment in American history.
Speaker 1: I think about all the time when I'm reading history, too, right,
Speaker 1: because there's so many things that like, like, eventually we
Speaker 1: stop chattel slavery in this country, right, And it took
Speaker 1: the deadliest war that America has ever participated in in
Speaker 1: terms of American lives lost, and the things that led
Speaker 1: up to it looked like failures. You had Nat Turner's rebellion,
Speaker 1: you had John Brown's rebellion and a lot of other
Speaker 1: rebellions besides that as the two off the top of
Speaker 1: my head. And overall you're like, well, those people lost
Speaker 1: and they died, right, but like they also sparked this
Speaker 1: war and they helped en chattel slavery. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I hold on too.
Speaker 2: That's actually very helpful, and I shall now be holding
Speaker 2: onto it as well.
Speaker 1: Cool.
Speaker 2: And also all of my personal failures are just laying
Speaker 2: the groundwork for you know, a huge success later on.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. I mean I actually liked kind of genuinely
Speaker 1: but right, because like the way you learn to do
Speaker 1: things is by failing at it. Yeah, you know, if
Speaker 1: you only ever succeed, it's stuff you are not trying
Speaker 1: hard enough. So if you only succeed politically, you're not
Speaker 1: asking for enough.
Speaker 2: That's interesting.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, he shows up and the French people,
Speaker 1: because the average peasant in France there's a really good
Speaker 1: chance they're a communist or a socialist of some stripe.
Speaker 1: Right at this point in history, we tend to forget
Speaker 1: that because of the Cold War and misunderstandings about what
Speaker 1: communism and socialism are that have been ingrained to us
Speaker 1: since we were little kids, you know. And so they're
Speaker 1: not wild eyed radicals, but they're communists or socialists, and
Speaker 1: they feel guilty. So they are like, okay, guy, we'll
Speaker 1: follow your lead. And just to follow up on the
Speaker 1: concentration camp that he left. On June twenty second, nineteen forty,
Speaker 1: France formally surrendered to Nazi Germany, and you get the
Speaker 1: start of what's called the VSHI government, the collaborate racist
Speaker 1: government of France, where they're basically just run by the Nazis.
Speaker 1: By nineteen forty two, that same camp, that infrastructure that
Speaker 1: was built to hold refugees was now controlled by the fascists,
Speaker 1: which is a thing with a lot of them out
Speaker 1: in parallels. Right, When democrats build up state power and
Speaker 1: the ability to do repression, and like clearly Biden did
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff to expand border patrols and like
Speaker 1: set of concentration camps on the border, all of that
Speaker 1: is then inherited by fascists, right, So this camp is
Speaker 1: inherited by fascists in nineteen forty two, and it became
Speaker 1: what we understand as a Nazi concentration camp from which
Speaker 1: Jews were shipped to Auschwitz. In August nineteen forty four,
Speaker 1: it was liberated by the French Resistance. At this point
Speaker 1: in the war, the USSR and Stalin are still allied
Speaker 1: with the Nazis. The US hasn't entered the war yet,
Speaker 1: and so the UK is kind of the only ones
Speaker 1: still standing against fascism. WI must have just honestly, straight
Speaker 1: up been one of the worst times to be alive
Speaker 1: in terms of fighting despair. Like I really hate when
Speaker 1: I got to hand it to the UK, but like
Speaker 1: and even like Churchill's advisors and shit are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you got to surrender to the Nazis. We're just gonna lose,
Speaker 1: you know that, right, England should just go fascist, We
Speaker 1: should just give up, We should surrender, you know. And
Speaker 1: then being like nah, but we can't though because they're
Speaker 1: Nazis was crucial, Yeah, change the world. So it was
Speaker 1: a hard time to be alive, just chaos. He is
Speaker 1: reinventing what an asylum can be in the middle of
Speaker 1: all of this fucking shit, just like like this is
Speaker 1: the moment where he's like, let's try some radically new shit.
Speaker 2: Well maybe because everyone had bigger things to worry about,
Speaker 2: nobody was like bothering with what he was up to.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's that's actually a decent point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and like everyone's like, well, we're all dead anyway, so
Speaker 1: like all.
Speaker 2: Right, you know, yes, like whatever this guy's doing, who cares,
Speaker 2: I gotta deal.
Speaker 1: With Yeah, yeah exactly. And so he actually, to the
Speaker 1: end of his days, he really likes the term asylum
Speaker 1: for these kinds of places. He likes it because it's
Speaker 1: a place of refuge and he himself is a refugee. Ah.
Speaker 1: He immediately pulls the bars off all the windows and
Speaker 1: he starts letting patients go into town and trade things
Speaker 1: and sell things and make friends and participate in the
Speaker 1: social life of this small town. He also starts sending
Speaker 1: postcards to his wife, to Helene, and specifically they're not
Speaker 1: just postcards of like here's the pretty place I'm at,
Speaker 1: but he's like left notes. It's like maps of the town,
Speaker 1: and he's like he's basically being like, well, they're all
Speaker 1: annotated so that, according to his daughter quote, so that
Speaker 1: my mother could get to know the area, because he's like,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be here, you know, and also you're gonna
Speaker 1: be smuggled in, so like get to know the area.
Speaker 1: Helene who is absolutely a badass in her own right.
Speaker 1: She starts saving up money to pay a trafficker to
Speaker 1: get her and her daughter north and is selling off
Speaker 1: furniture on the black market. Under Franco, this is the
Speaker 1: kind of thing I'm afraid of here. Under Franco, there's
Speaker 1: no free travel around the country. So Helene managed to
Speaker 1: get a maybe forged but I'm not sure, safe conduct
Speaker 1: certificate to allow them to travel to Barcelona. So they're
Speaker 1: not even leaving like Catalonia, but even within Catalonia. In
Speaker 1: order to go from one town to the big city,
Speaker 1: they got to get permission. Murray Rose was four and
Speaker 1: a half years old. On the night that they left,
Speaker 1: her grandmother cried and kissed her and said how she
Speaker 1: would die without ever seeing her again. They made it
Speaker 1: to Barcelona to stay with family, and Helene started sewing
Speaker 1: and cooking for fascist generals in order to save money.
Speaker 1: And then they travel at night in a train of
Speaker 1: refugees through the mountains. I want to say that about
Speaker 1: like ten of them or so, and they're led by
Speaker 1: a smuggler, a trafficker. Murray Rose remembers the huge moon
Speaker 1: over the hills and asks her mom does Papa see
Speaker 1: the same moon, and you know, Mom's like, yeah, and
Speaker 1: that was like kind of it was a hard time
Speaker 1: as a four and a half year old across over
Speaker 1: the mountains.
Speaker 2: Impressive she remembers it, I.
Speaker 1: Know, and I think it's kind of one of those
Speaker 1: things that's like a round where memory starts and then
Speaker 1: you throw in like this. And also her letters, she
Speaker 1: clearly she actually wrote a whole book about her family's history,
Speaker 1: but it's only in French, and so I think she's
Speaker 1: also probably drawing from her mother's memory as well when
Speaker 1: she writes about this. But the trafficker betrayed them. He
Speaker 1: led them through the mountains and down into a valley
Speaker 1: and he's like, yeah, you're in France, give me your money,
Speaker 1: and so it gives them, you know, all this money
Speaker 1: they've been saving up for a fucking year or whatever,
Speaker 1: and he takes off. They are still in Spain.
Speaker 2: That's such bullshit, I be. I know, what an evil, deeply,
Speaker 2: deeply evil person.
Speaker 1: I know. Marie Rose Like in her letters talks about
Speaker 1: how the plight of the modern refugee is nothing different
Speaker 1: than what she experienced. And one of the things she
Speaker 1: talks about is she's like the people who do this
Speaker 1: smuggling and trafficking are just motivated by profit and like,
Speaker 1: you know, right, But here's where it turns around, and
Speaker 1: fucking humans rule. They're in this tiny Spanish probably Bosque,
Speaker 1: but I'm not certain. They're in this tiny town, and
Speaker 1: a shepherd from the little village is like, all right,
Speaker 1: my nephew will take you for free. And so this
Speaker 1: young man like throws the four year old over his
Speaker 1: shoulders and they fucking take off through the mountains and
Speaker 1: they hike all night. They camp in the ruins of
Speaker 1: a church, and she wakes up in the morning. Marie
Speaker 1: Rose wakes up in the morning to see snow for
Speaker 1: the first time in her life.
Speaker 2: What a like metaphor that every thing's going to be
Speaker 2: different now I know, like.
Speaker 1: This is the story. I want to see a movie
Speaker 1: of the closest I've ever seen. There's a movie that
Speaker 1: I didn't want to watch because of its title, and
Speaker 1: then I finally watched that's actually really beautiful. This movie
Speaker 1: called The Anarchist Wife, and it's either French or Spanish,
Speaker 1: and it's about a refugee family from the Spanish Civil
Speaker 1: War of anarchists, where the husband was the militant, but
Speaker 1: the women, the woman is the protagonist and just as
Speaker 1: much of a part of everything, just like happened to
Speaker 1: not have been at the front or whatever. And it's
Speaker 1: about their like time doing partisan resistance and sit It's
Speaker 1: actually a really beautiful movie. But I was like, she
Speaker 1: could be a fucking anarchist too. Fuck you. You know.
Speaker 2: It's provocative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. It did provoke me, and it actually
Speaker 1: is probably why I watched it in the end too.
Speaker 1: And this whole account is worth reading. Honestly, her account
Speaker 1: is one of the coolest things I've read for this show.
Speaker 1: If you read French, she wrote a whole lass book.
Speaker 1: But if you want to read these letters, there's four
Speaker 1: of them. They're on Ben Platt's Mills blog. The link
Speaker 1: to will be in the show notes and the sources.
Speaker 1: And so they they go down into the valley this
Speaker 1: time it's actually in France, and gendarmes catch them and
Speaker 1: they're like, no, you're you're not French. You gotta go back.
Speaker 1: But and Marie Rose actually believes the gendarmes were kind
Speaker 1: of in on it. The gendarmes are like, look, we
Speaker 1: got to take you back in the morning. Why don't
Speaker 1: you stay at this hotel for a night and then
Speaker 1: we'll take you back in the morning. And they go
Speaker 1: in and the hotel worker is like this woman is like, nah,
Speaker 1: fuck no, I'm gonna hide your asses, like you're not
Speaker 1: getting deported, Like what the fuck?
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: And so when the gendarmes come back the next morning
Speaker 1: and then they're like, we're looking for the person, and
Speaker 1: then the hotel workers like, I don't know, they must
Speaker 1: have left in the middle of the night. Uh, they're
Speaker 1: hidden in the attic, and they hide there for days,
Speaker 1: maybe for weeks, because that's also worth knowing. This is
Speaker 1: Nazi controlled territory, right, you know, like even though it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: we made it out of Spain, frying pan, fire, et cetera.
Speaker 1: You know, her husband's in the fire, so she's going
Speaker 1: to the fire, you know, and so they hit there
Speaker 1: for days, maybe weeks, in this attic. Meanwhile, Francesque it's
Speaker 1: not safe for him to travel either because Nazis do
Speaker 1: as Nazis do. There's no free travel within Nazi controlled
Speaker 1: to France, but he sorts it out. The prefect of
Speaker 1: Los Are, the province or whatever, fakes up a document
Speaker 1: for him to travel, and so he takes it and
Speaker 1: he heads off, and Francesque walks into that attic room
Speaker 1: and the daughter walks up and is like hello, sir,
Speaker 1: and like sticks out her hand, and she said, quote,
Speaker 1: this is the first image, like the first memory I
Speaker 1: have of my dad. I don't remember him before this meeting.
Speaker 1: Obviously we saw each other intermittently during those four years
Speaker 1: of war, but I have no recollection of it. I
Speaker 1: knew as a photograph. Mother relates that as a child
Speaker 1: I rushed into the legs of all the men with
Speaker 1: glasses and a mustache, but it was never him. And
Speaker 1: so on December sixth, nineteen forty, she met her dad
Speaker 1: and got to grow up with him after all, and
Speaker 1: they went to Saint Alban And you know what may
Speaker 1: or may not have been on the carriage, like the
Speaker 1: train walls, what advertisements. I don't know if they had
Speaker 1: invented in train advertisements at that point, but if they hadn't,
Speaker 1: they'd been really missing out on a lucrative opportunity for
Speaker 1: people to hear about all kinds of things. Some of
Speaker 1: the ads are even for good things, like going hiking
Speaker 1: with your friends. That's literally Sometimes we get an ad
Speaker 1: for go to the Woods and you know, only listen
Speaker 1: to whatever. Use your own fucking judgment. You know how
Speaker 1: advertising works. You live in this society. Here they are
Speaker 1: and we're back, okay. And I was listening to this
Speaker 1: other podcast that everyone should listen to called sixteenth Minute
Speaker 1: of Fame with Jamie Loftus that's also a part of
Speaker 1: the Cool Zone media network, and in it, she does
Speaker 1: this thing where she's talking to everyone who's I'm completely
Speaker 1: off script here, but everyone probably has figured that out.
Speaker 1: She's talking to the people who do brand Twitter and
Speaker 1: like brand TikTok, you know, and like how they like
Speaker 1: like the horny dual lingo owl and shit like that.
Speaker 2: Right, didn't they kill him?
Speaker 1: Yeah? They killed him?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I learned that through through the podcast. I don't know
Speaker 1: anything about pop culture, so I learned it through Jamie's podcast.
Speaker 1: And they specifically have a word for anti advertising, which
Speaker 1: is when you like, are like real cynical and you're like,
Speaker 1: I hate capitalism, but here's some ads. I genuinely think
Speaker 1: that's why they let me get away with it.
Speaker 2: Well, when we were growing our YouTube channel, we would
Speaker 2: do branded content, like we would just be like, hey, everyone,
Speaker 2: we need money, and then it would be this wonderful
Speaker 2: thing where our audience would be like get the bag. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you exactly understood.
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to just bring people in on
Speaker 1: it because it's like, look like we all have jobs,
Speaker 1: you know, Like, yeah, my dog eats food for some reason,
Speaker 1: and so do I, you know, and yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1: I like just kind of being like just up front, like, look,
Speaker 1: we're doing a thing, because I'm not like ashamed of
Speaker 1: it either, right, It's just a thing, you know.
Speaker 2: And it's how advertisements have like been the backboat of
Speaker 2: so much media. Yeah, for I mean that's why you
Speaker 2: get TV, that's why you get a lot of newspapers,
Speaker 2: like totally. So it's important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, until we live in a better society, and then
Speaker 1: I can't even be like a literally last week's was
Speaker 1: about how in the USSR, all art had to be
Speaker 1: state sponsored. So if you weren't hired by the state
Speaker 1: to make art, you like weren't allowed to write, you know,
Speaker 1: and publish, and so it was all about how people
Speaker 1: got around that by writing anyway. So never forget that
Speaker 1: more than one thing can be bad at once.
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to seeing what Trump does with the
Speaker 2: Kennedy Center, and what beautiful shows he'll bring to the
Speaker 2: stage they're programming is now just Trump's interests.
Speaker 1: I bet you. Every now and then there'll be like
Speaker 1: someone playing Trump and he like won't be handsome enough,
Speaker 1: and then we'll get arrested or something.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's so true.
Speaker 1: That whole thing where he freaked out about the painting
Speaker 1: that wasn't good enough about him really just was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we got a dictators That's what this is.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's really just so glaring how much
Speaker 2: everything is fueled by his insecurity. Yeah, that he is
Speaker 2: just like a true narcissist who cannot handle any sort
Speaker 2: of attack at his being.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, well, hopefully redacted and anyway, So Francesca and
Speaker 1: Helene and Marie Rose make it to Saint alban and
Speaker 1: in most texts, francesquets basically all the credit for doing everything,
Speaker 1: but like some are actually aware that Helene was just
Speaker 1: as vital to the functioning of the place, and that's
Speaker 1: this I'm more likely to believe that. But also specifically,
Speaker 1: the patients and the other doctors and the nurses and
Speaker 1: the nuns all work together. And I know they work
Speaker 1: together because they restructured the place to work together, and
Speaker 1: so like the idea of big man of history ing
Speaker 1: an anarchist who got rid of the hierarchy, or an
Speaker 1: actual communist who doesn't believe in hierarchy who got rid
Speaker 1: of the hierarchy. Within this place, it's just obscene. So
Speaker 1: they're at the asylum and they're transforming it. They're drawing
Speaker 1: on psychoanalysis, anti authoritarian communism, and surrealism or like they're
Speaker 1: three like well Spring. He takes the bars off the window.
Speaker 1: He's letting people on the go into town. He taught
Speaker 1: the basics of therapy to villagers because he figured everyone
Speaker 1: was gonna need it because they're all under occupation. I
Speaker 1: mean he's not wrong, Yeah, no, totally. Together they developed geopsychiatry,
Speaker 1: in which space itself is part of the therapy and
Speaker 1: that the space itself needed to be healed. It wasn't
Speaker 1: until the fifties that this gets more of the proper name.
Speaker 1: But I'll get to in a second. A lot of
Speaker 1: their stuff is stuff that we've seen elsewhere, usually later,
Speaker 1: but actually fountain houses. Around the same time as this,
Speaker 1: they try to break down the social hierarchy between doctor
Speaker 1: and patient. They start like sleeping in the same place,
Speaker 1: eating the same food. The nurses aren't wearing different uniforms,
Speaker 1: and they become mutually involved in keeping the space clean
Speaker 1: and functional, so people have a steak in the place working,
Speaker 1: you know, being maintained and cleaned and things like that.
Speaker 1: This strange madhouse is where the mood with the misleading name.
Speaker 1: I told you that I was eventually gonna have a name.
Speaker 1: The name of this style is institutional psychotherapy.
Speaker 2: That doesn't sound good, It sounds terrible.
Speaker 1: The idea, as best as I can understand, isn't institutionalized
Speaker 1: psychotherapy right right, but rather the institution itself is sick
Speaker 1: and it needs psychotherapy.
Speaker 2: Oh now that's beautiful. Yeah, but again it's a language
Speaker 2: use problem.
Speaker 1: Uh huh, and all that's just coming from French. And
Speaker 1: then like they're actually literally going to inspire a lot
Speaker 1: of the people who are sort of the continental theorist
Speaker 1: model of philosophy, like to losing Gatari and Friends Phenon
Speaker 1: and actually he's probably considered anti colonial, not continental, and
Speaker 1: I think for co but I can more specifically tie
Speaker 1: in to losing Gatari and Friends Phenon and to losing
Speaker 1: Gatari are philosophers who specifically write in his continental theory style.
Speaker 1: That's so fucking hard to understand, but it's sort of
Speaker 1: meant to be that way, according to a Greek theory
Speaker 1: had I asked about this once. I was like, why
Speaker 1: the fuck is all this incomprehensible? And he was like, literally,
Speaker 1: in France, they developed this idea that it like should
Speaker 1: be poetic and kind of like make you uneasy and
Speaker 1: make you really interrogate the text. And I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: a simple girl. I like, like like George Orwell's rules
Speaker 1: for writing, which is like, right, as simply as you can,
Speaker 1: you know, like don't dumb things down, but make things
Speaker 1: as simple as you possibly can. Yeah, but that's not
Speaker 1: necessarily the page they're on, so they probably didn't even
Speaker 1: give a shit. That is a fucking incomprehensible name institutional psychotherapy.
Speaker 1: To quote author Sasha Warren, the hospital was sick. It
Speaker 1: had a social life, but it was impoverished and dehumanizing.
Speaker 1: It claimed to offer shelter and refuge from the outside world,
Speaker 1: but it took the form of a prison or even
Speaker 1: a camp. If the assa was to become a real refuge,
Speaker 1: then its role must be to disoccupy and disalienate the person,
Speaker 1: not replace one alienation with another, Like that's reasonably clear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one alienation, what is the the other? So one
Speaker 2: alienation is like being removed from regular society and then
Speaker 2: just replacing it with like being alienated within the institute.
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, I think it's about I mean,
Speaker 1: they also present this idea that like society, modern capitalist
Speaker 1: society is itself alienating, and that it is like breaking
Speaker 1: down social bonds and things like that. But I think
Speaker 1: that they I think they are talking about the specific
Speaker 1: alienation of being you know, quote unquote mad or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then going into this place where you're now just
Speaker 1: another alienation. One of the interesting things about reading about
Speaker 1: all of this is I'm much more interested in the
Speaker 1: part where they're going to smuggle guns to partisans and
Speaker 1: less interested in the theory. But most of what is written,
Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority of what is written and what I read,
Speaker 1: is about the theory. And so I actually read a
Speaker 1: lot about their ideas of alienation. But I kind of
Speaker 1: didn't get at all.
Speaker 2: A simple girl, you had to save your storage for
Speaker 2: the gun.
Speaker 1: Stuff, Yeah, exactly, And this was very specifically not an
Speaker 1: anti institutional framework for care that is a movement within
Speaker 1: certain psychiatric movements or anti psychiatric movements, right is to
Speaker 1: be anti institutional but they believed deeply that place mattered.
Speaker 1: During Francescue's time in Spain, he had tried to make
Speaker 1: sure that each region had its own therapeutic methods that
Speaker 1: fit their own culture and land and community. He tried
Speaker 1: to engage the actual community in people's care. So the
Speaker 1: institution had to become a place of actual care and
Speaker 1: an actual home, and people needed to be disalienated from
Speaker 1: the place that they were, like that they literally are,
Speaker 1: right then, you know, And this approach was specifically practical
Speaker 1: in the VC France world. Okay, so Nazi Germany had
Speaker 1: like we'll call it hard genetics where they just kind
Speaker 1: of killed everyone right, very famously, like if you're disabled
Speaker 1: in some way, they're like, we're gonna fucking kill you.
Speaker 1: We're horrible. Nazis Vichy France were soft eugenicists. Their policy,
Speaker 1: which isn't better was to just leave institutionalize people to
Speaker 1: starve or freeze to death by stopping taking care of them.
Speaker 2: Ah all right, yeah, sort of a passive approach to
Speaker 2: your eugenics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And their definition of madness at the time.
Speaker 1: Madness is always socially constructed. But the definition of madness
Speaker 1: that v she France is working on includes criminals, It
Speaker 1: includes disabled people, it includes queer people. Forty thousand people
Speaker 1: died of starvation and neglect or or murdered by vc
Speaker 1: France through soft eugenics. No one, not one of the
Speaker 1: patients died as san al bond during the occupation of
Speaker 1: starvation or neglect because they had a collective process to
Speaker 1: solve their immediate needs. The barrier between patient and doctor
Speaker 1: and partisan hiding in the place all blurred together because
Speaker 1: did I mention their hiding partisans. I will get to
Speaker 1: that soon. Tuscaus wrote, quote, the human is a creature
Speaker 1: that goes from one space to another. She cannot stay
Speaker 1: all the time in the same place. That's to say
Speaker 1: that the human is always a pilgrim, a creature who
Speaker 1: goes elsewhere. And this idea of migration and change is
Speaker 1: fundamental to his philosophy, and I fucking love it so
Speaker 1: much that I shoehorned it in the script where it
Speaker 1: didn't really fit. He wrote that the first right of
Speaker 1: man is to wander. I also love that he's like both,
Speaker 1: writing like the first right of man and then he's
Speaker 1: using like sheep pronouns and this stuff. I get the
Speaker 1: impression that he was doing the kind of thing that
Speaker 1: people were doing back in the day, where like everything
Speaker 1: is gendered and so they just kind of go back
Speaker 1: and forth, you.
Speaker 2: Know, but there's a level of awareness there that's nice
Speaker 2: to see.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, totally. Like I actually think that was
Speaker 1: a very conscious thing that people did a lot, is
Speaker 1: that they were like, he will do this, she will
Speaker 1: do that, you know, as a way to again, not
Speaker 1: a man who wrote the women out of his script
Speaker 1: in his life, and they also developed this idea. Well,
Speaker 1: they're not the only people who developed this idea comes
Speaker 1: from a lot of different leftist political tendencies. They believe
Speaker 1: in a permanent revolution and including like in the psychotherapy world,
Speaker 1: that is to say, there is no perfect thing you'll reach.
Speaker 1: You don't reach utopia. You build utopia and you are
Speaker 1: constantly building it. The place the institution can always be improved,
Speaker 1: We will always learn new methods, we will always be
Speaker 1: trying to do better.
Speaker 2: I love that approach. Yeah, me too, because I think,
Speaker 2: especially with a lot of people in their mental health journeys,
Speaker 2: it's like, but why I aren't I all better yet?
Speaker 2: And it's like you're never going to be all better. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're just taking care of yourself throughout your life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And I wonder if that even like helps
Speaker 1: to be like just like the institution you live at
Speaker 1: and are working kind of with as a patient, you know,
Speaker 1: being like, look, you're never going to fully clean the floor,
Speaker 1: but we want the floors to be clean, and you
Speaker 1: want the floors to be clean too, And you're never
Speaker 1: going to not have anger issues or whatever your thing is,
Speaker 1: but we can work on it, you know exactly. They
Speaker 1: set up a lot of occupational therapy things. Like one
Speaker 1: of the things I love is that, like this story
Speaker 1: and Fountain House and Bethel House, they all I kind
Speaker 1: of hit upon really similar stuff and there's some conscious
Speaker 1: communication happening, but like, well, now there is a lot
Speaker 1: because I know that well, I know people work at
Speaker 1: Fountain House and they're the people who told me about
Speaker 1: this story, But I don't know that there was like
Speaker 1: conscious communication happening when both things are happening same time, right,
Speaker 1: They set up occupational therapy things. There's art and trades,
Speaker 1: there's throwing parties and festivals, patients ran their own bar,
Speaker 1: and I think it's not just for patients. I think
Speaker 1: it's for villagers too, but I'm not one hundred percent
Speaker 1: certain if you were playing cool people bingo. They also
Speaker 1: had a newspaper, and I think they had a newspapers
Speaker 1: for specifically only the people living at the place, so
Speaker 1: it was a kind of internal when they could kind
Speaker 1: of like talk shit and stuff. You know.
Speaker 2: I'd love if they had like a gossip column of
Speaker 2: like B and B seeing of like who was eating
Speaker 2: lunch with who?
Speaker 1: And I would not be surprised if they did.
Speaker 2: Like a page six of just the people.
Speaker 1: Would I would not be surprised. I only found one
Speaker 1: essay from one of these newspapers, and it was very
Speaker 1: internal and it was like some nuns talking about like
Speaker 1: how they felt about their position within the place. But
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised at all if it was like,
Speaker 1: can you believe that Sam is eating fucking beans? Again?
Speaker 1: If there's Sam always eating beans? Know he fart?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: They also and so in addition to just being like, hey,
Speaker 1: you get to do arts and crafts, they politically set
Speaker 1: it up so that the patients have power. They set
Speaker 1: up a patient club which is a political body made
Speaker 1: up of patients that had significant power over the asylum.
Speaker 1: And this is a thing that I run across with
Speaker 1: a lot of syndicalist ideas. Is this not just about
Speaker 1: one thing I love? Is I love worker cooperatives where
Speaker 1: workers own the store, whereas most like co op grocery
Speaker 1: stores are owners cooperatives where the customers own the store.
Speaker 1: I am currently distracted because a dog has appeared in
Speaker 1: my field of vision on screen, Alison, what is that
Speaker 1: dog's name?
Speaker 2: This is Phantom?
Speaker 1: Hi, Phantom. No one else can see Phantom because Phantom's invisible.
Speaker 1: They're a phantom. But Phantom is very cute.
Speaker 2: He's a really nice guy.
Speaker 1: So so instead of just having a worker's cooperative or
Speaker 1: an owner's cooperative, people tried to set up both. Like
Speaker 1: a lot of all the ideas a syndiclus would have
Speaker 1: would be like, look, if there's a school, it should
Speaker 1: be run by the teachers and the students and the
Speaker 1: parents of the students. It's everyone who has a stake
Speaker 1: in how it happens. Right, So if there's a store,
Speaker 1: the people who want to buy stuff from that store
Speaker 1: and the people who work in the store should probably
Speaker 1: be the people who make the decisions about the store collectively,
Speaker 1: so they have the patients and the doctors have their
Speaker 1: own sort of political and the caretakers or whatever have
Speaker 1: their own political bodies to help control what's happening. Sos
Speaker 1: Kaos wrote, quote, nothing should ever be obvious. Everything is
Speaker 1: subject to discussion. Everybody must be consulted. Everybody can decide,
Speaker 1: not just for the sake of democracy, but in order
Speaker 1: to facilitate the progressive conquest of speech. To learn mutual respect,
Speaker 1: the patients must be able to have a say on
Speaker 1: the conditions of their stay and their care, their rights
Speaker 1: of exchanges, expression and circulation, and so it's like part
Speaker 1: of their therapy to be empowered.
Speaker 2: I think mutual respect is such an important backbone. Yeah,
Speaker 2: of like all relationships.
Speaker 1: Totally one of the things that like, okay, well, it's
Speaker 1: even the next sentence. Conflict was a source of socialization.
Speaker 1: So it's not like it's not like everyone just got along. Like,
Speaker 1: these are people with serious mental illnesses and they're in
Speaker 1: the middle of a war and they're starving, right, They
Speaker 1: are in conflict with each other, and learning how to
Speaker 1: de escalate and work through their conflict is part of
Speaker 1: their therapy and part of survival definitely.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's like one of the main reasons why
Speaker 2: like therapy can help is because you'll learn how to
Speaker 2: navigate like issues with your therapist totally and to see
Speaker 2: like you'll maybe like have an argument about something or
Speaker 2: disagree about something, but then you learn how to like
Speaker 2: repair it and share your thoughts and work through it,
Speaker 2: and that like those skills you then can take out
Speaker 2: of the therapy room.
Speaker 1: I remember once I was in this conflict mediation workshop
Speaker 1: at an earth First camp, you know, so, like people
Speaker 1: are tree sitting and stuff. We're getting together and we're
Speaker 1: talking about, like you know, someone's presenting here's ideas about
Speaker 1: conflict resolution and all of this stuff, and we're talking
Speaker 1: to these skills and one a friend of mine worked
Speaker 1: at a kindergarten basically and was like, oh, yeah, when
Speaker 1: kids have conflict, they get really excited and they run
Speaker 1: up to us and they're like, teacher, teacher, we're in
Speaker 1: a conflict. I want to play with this toy, and
Speaker 1: so does he, you know, and then they get really
Speaker 1: excited to work through it together. And it was funny
Speaker 1: because in that circle everyone was like, ah, yes, children
Speaker 1: are very wise they are naturally very wise and they
Speaker 1: know these things. And then my friend is like, not
Speaker 1: really doesn't really talk a lot in things. It was
Speaker 1: already a huge thing for them to bring up a
Speaker 1: story at all. Afterwards, they came up to me and
Speaker 1: they're like, no, we taught those kids that. Like it's
Speaker 1: not that they're just magic creatures, you know, it's that
Speaker 1: we can we can learn better ways of doing things.
Speaker 1: But you know what is also a better way of No,
Speaker 1: I got nothing. I got nothing. There's just a bunch
Speaker 1: of ads that's gonna happen. Now, that's what's going to happen,
Speaker 1: and we're back. Okay. So medical staff regularly performed manual labor,
Speaker 1: including farming. They're also like trying to grow as much
Speaker 1: food as possible, like everyone is right, And patients regularly
Speaker 1: talk classes about the stuff they know. And then they
Speaker 1: did the thing that is how I learned about them
Speaker 1: in the first place, the thing I can find the
Speaker 1: least information about. They helped the Partisans, the French resistance
Speaker 1: of communists and anarchists and just not Nazis who would
Speaker 1: one day liberate France, which means that you've got this
Speaker 1: asylum a castle in the mountains where the patients are
Speaker 1: making their own decisions alongside their caretakers anarchist communists and nuns.
Speaker 1: And the decision that they make is that they're going
Speaker 1: to hide and arm partisan gorillas on the third floor
Speaker 1: of their castle. And I couldn't make that shit up.
Speaker 1: It is too perfect to my interests.
Speaker 2: I loved so much that this is all happening in
Speaker 2: a castle.
Speaker 1: I know, like, I want to write this, like, but
Speaker 1: it already happened, you know, well, you.
Speaker 2: Could fictionalize it and make it into quite an epic story.
Speaker 1: It's true. I one of my like retire from everything
Speaker 1: else goals is to just start writing like queer historical romance.
Speaker 2: Oh why do you have to wait to retire to
Speaker 2: do that?
Speaker 1: Did podcasting take so much of my energy? And I
Speaker 1: also have several books that I eventually I'll do it.
Speaker 1: I just various excuses. Every author has various excuses. I'm
Speaker 1: working on other books right now, and I dream of
Speaker 1: one day being like, I'm gonna write about dark ages,
Speaker 1: Ireland and gay people or something, you know, you know what?
Speaker 2: I think one day you will.
Speaker 1: I hope so too, assuming I make it through the
Speaker 1: next several years of but you know what, it just
Speaker 1: as a spoiler. Francesca's going to make it through the
Speaker 1: next several years. He's going to make it through the occupation,
Speaker 1: So there's hope for me. Literally, he fought in two
Speaker 1: fucking wars against fascism, and one of them he lost.
Speaker 1: In one of them he won, and that's not terrible.
Speaker 2: You know, these are pretty I mean pretty good stats.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the bigger one is the one he won,
Speaker 1: the one when we're playing for more chips. All of
Speaker 1: the world beside Spain, which stayed fascist until the fucking
Speaker 1: seventies eighties, whenever fucking Franco died. I sometimes know that
Speaker 1: date and I don't currently. So the resistance is air
Speaker 1: dropping them arms to distribute to gorillas. They care for
Speaker 1: wounded soldiers. I think it's like the nuns are carrying
Speaker 1: for wounded soldiers who show up. They distribute underground newspapers.
Speaker 1: They forged documents to get soldiers and Jews into the
Speaker 1: place as patients. So they were just taking in refugees
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, yeah, you're like crazy.
Speaker 2: That's so smart.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They even had a sick name for themselves, although
Speaker 1: I won't pronounce it right. Unfortunately, they called themselves the
Speaker 1: Society of Gevodon, based on a local legend which I
Speaker 1: will now relate because it's really cool. This part is real,
Speaker 1: and in the seventeen sixties, over the course of three years,
Speaker 1: the Beast of Gevoudan killed at least one hundred people
Speaker 1: in rural France. Like that actually happened.
Speaker 2: What kind of beast?
Speaker 1: That's the question. Oh, that's the history, doesn't know part.
Speaker 1: It would rip out people's throats. Sometimes it would rip
Speaker 1: off entire heads of people, which is not a thing
Speaker 1: that most animals do. And it would do this in
Speaker 1: the French countryside, in the area where the hospital was,
Speaker 1: which was historically called Gueveoudon, it's called lose Air. I
Speaker 1: think I forgot because it's not written in front of me.
Speaker 1: The beast gets described by eyewitnesses as like a wolf,
Speaker 1: but not a wolf, And there's a couple of reasons.
Speaker 1: I like that one. There's this like cryptid in Appalachia
Speaker 1: that is mostly an Internet thing, but I think it's
Speaker 1: kind of based on a real thing, even though it's not. Whatever.
Speaker 1: There's a thing called a not a deer, which is
Speaker 1: like sometimes you see a deer and you're like that
Speaker 1: deer is real weird and you're like, what the fuck
Speaker 1: is going on? And then you're like, I don't think
Speaker 1: that's a deer, you know, And it's the kind of
Speaker 1: thing you see like late at night when you're like
Speaker 1: walking around and there's a deer and you're like, wait,
Speaker 1: that's not a deer, And I really like the not
Speaker 1: a deer. So the fact that there's a not a.
Speaker 2: Wolf, yeah, I like would love that there's just some
Speaker 2: animals out and about that we just like have not seen.
Speaker 1: I know. Although the thing that makes me sadder than
Speaker 1: anything is thinking about species going extinct that we never saw,
Speaker 1: like under the ocean or whatever. How we have killed
Speaker 1: fish that we've never seen before.
Speaker 2: Well, who knows what's going on in the ocean. To
Speaker 2: be honest, that's true.
Speaker 1: They could be preparing to destroy us all. And you
Speaker 1: know what, that's okay.
Speaker 2: Like truly like wild stuff could be going on in
Speaker 2: its deep ocean.
Speaker 1: It's true, okay to quote History dot com about the
Speaker 1: beast of Geradon or Gerdon quote. The beast was consistently
Speaker 1: described by eyewitnesses as something other than a typical wolf.
Speaker 1: It was as large as a calf for sometimes a horse.
Speaker 1: Its coat was a reddish gray with a long, strong,
Speaker 1: panther like tail. The head and legs were short haired
Speaker 1: and the color of a deer. It had a black
Speaker 1: stripe on its back and talons on its feet, and
Speaker 1: so hunters combed the woods looking for this. The king
Speaker 1: put out a fucking bounty on it. It was wounded
Speaker 1: several times by a musket and then a bayonet, but
Speaker 1: it escaped each time and continued to kill people.
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a chance it's a guy in
Speaker 2: a suit.
Speaker 1: There is a small chance that it's a guy in
Speaker 1: a suit. That is like one of the things that
Speaker 1: people consider as a possibility. But most serial killers aren't
Speaker 1: killing like a hundred people.
Speaker 2: You know, Well, that's not true. We have no idea.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. No, you're right.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of serial killers their numbers are
Speaker 2: way higher than what we think they are, especially if
Speaker 2: they're targeting like sex workers, where people don't no one
Speaker 2: is paying enough attention.
Speaker 1: That's true, and especially like back in the day when
Speaker 1: like imagine how much easier crime was before, like fucking
Speaker 1: finger printing and shit, you know, and.
Speaker 2: Honestly, crime is still pretty easy. Like most people don't
Speaker 2: most people get away with murder if you look at
Speaker 2: like the murder solvery. Yeah, but we need more police.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, that'll solve it, even though they've been
Speaker 1: proven in court to not have an obligation to help people.
Speaker 1: So someone killed a huge wolf and everyone was like,
Speaker 1: we did it, But then the attacks kept coming, so
Speaker 1: it was clearly not that. A few years later folks
Speaker 1: killed like a wolf, but not thing that had human
Speaker 1: remains inside of it. It was probably a wolf, right,
Speaker 1: or a bunch of wolves. It was almost certainly not
Speaker 1: rabid because no humans during all this was we're getting rabies, right,
Speaker 1: And a lot of people did survive the attacks.
Speaker 2: Oh and they all said the same description.
Speaker 1: More or less. This is like one of the things
Speaker 1: that there's like a million fucking stories about, right, But like, overall,
Speaker 1: the most likely thing is that it was a wolf
Speaker 1: and just people were like, nah, I had like fucking
Speaker 1: fangs or whatever, you know. Like, it's also possible that
Speaker 1: it was a hyena or a lion, that especially a
Speaker 1: not yet adult male lion that which would then have
Speaker 1: a stripe down its back of hair instead of a
Speaker 1: mane that had escaped from some menageree.
Speaker 2: Right, oh, interesting.
Speaker 1: Or people have said it might have been a guy
Speaker 1: in a suit and the whole like beheaded thing kind
Speaker 1: of ties into that a little bit, right, Or it
Speaker 1: could have been a were wolf. I don't know, whatever,
Speaker 1: Who am I to say it wasn't.
Speaker 2: My money is on wolf, but my money is on
Speaker 2: guy in a suit. Yeah, maybe two guys in a suit,
Speaker 2: based on how big it.
Speaker 1: Was, like like one of those horse costumes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: That's okay. I'm going with that one. I'm going with
Speaker 1: that one. So when they started working with partisans in
Speaker 1: the same mountains, they called themselves the Society of Givedon
Speaker 1: as a reference to the Beast of Givedon, because the
Speaker 1: gorillas are now functioning as that, right, they're like hiding
Speaker 1: and fucking taken out Nazis, And it's a society of
Speaker 1: communists and nuns working together, and I love it and
Speaker 1: about that fact, so Sciatus wrote, quote, I have two specialties,
Speaker 1: turning communists into communists and nuns into nuns, because most
Speaker 1: Catholics are not actually calf like. I have nothing against
Speaker 1: being Catholic or communist. I am against those claiming to
Speaker 1: be communists when they are radical socialists or public servants,
Speaker 1: and against the nuns who believe they are nuns when
Speaker 1: they are only officials of the church. Part of my
Speaker 1: job has consisted of converting people into what they really are,
Speaker 1: beyond their appearance, beyond what they believe they are and
Speaker 1: their ideal self.
Speaker 2: I love the idea of converting someone into who they
Speaker 2: really are. Yeah, that's such a succinct and like powerful
Speaker 2: way to think about transformation.
Speaker 1: I know. And and in the context of being like,
Speaker 1: oh you call yourself a communists, and why you standing
Speaker 1: for Stalin what the fuck you know? Like like, oh
Speaker 1: you call yourself a nun, Well, are you actually just
Speaker 1: taking care of poor people or are you just like
Speaker 1: doing whatever the church says? You know? I fucking love it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like challenge people to be the best selves, which mostly
Speaker 1: I don't think about doing that to other people. I
Speaker 1: try and think about that, like we should all just
Speaker 1: try and do that with ourselves and encourage each other
Speaker 1: to do it, you know, be our best selves.
Speaker 2: But why do you think he preferred communism to socialism?
Speaker 1: Okay, so I actually think in this sense when he
Speaker 1: says I'm turning communist into communists, I think that he's
Speaker 1: not identifying as a communist here in the same way
Speaker 1: that he's not catholic. I actually think this is actually
Speaker 1: evidence in my he's in an archosyndicalist theory. But in
Speaker 1: this particular context, everyone's going to use these words differently
Speaker 1: at different times, right. But imagine a three sided leftist triangle,
Speaker 1: and you have socialism and communism and anarchism. Now, theoretically,
Speaker 1: socialism is a broader umbrella about who owns the means
Speaker 1: of production and under that that has a lot of
Speaker 1: different things that that could be. But generally speaking, when
Speaker 1: people are using it around this time in the twentieth century,
Speaker 1: they're sort of saying democratic socialism. They're saying something that
Speaker 1: doesn't really exist in the US, but is a very
Speaker 1: common European thing of being kind of left of center,
Speaker 1: being like Bernieish right. And that's not a bad thing
Speaker 1: to be, but it is a distinct thing from the
Speaker 1: far left, which wouldn't be the socialist but would instead
Speaker 1: be the communists and the anarchists. To make things even
Speaker 1: more confusing, communism theoretically means a stateless society, it actually
Speaker 1: means anarchism. But the people who call themselves communists, especially
Speaker 1: in the middle of the twentieth century are referring to
Speaker 1: the Communist Party and therefore Soviet control and capital see
Speaker 1: communism overall. And so if someone is a radical leftist
Speaker 1: and a communist at this point, instead of calling themselves
Speaker 1: a socialist, it means that they are like a revolutionary.
Speaker 1: They want to seize the means of production. Why are
Speaker 1: as a socialist probably wants to vote in socialists into power.
Speaker 1: And then a syndicalist, an anarcho syndicalist, wants trade unions
Speaker 1: to build power and then slowly make the state obsolete.
Speaker 1: That's my rough overview. Yeah, and what.
Speaker 2: Do you think, So you think he identified as that
Speaker 2: last one that you said that thing I could never pronounce.
Speaker 1: I can't tell because his parents were that, okay, and
Speaker 1: that was a huge part of the Spanish movement. But
Speaker 1: he was also a Marxist, and Marxism was slightly different.
Speaker 1: He was probably what we would call now a like
Speaker 1: small SA communist. He was probably didn't believe in the
Speaker 1: state or like USSR and Stalin and shit. I've read
Speaker 1: some things that called him in an arcosyndicalist, and I've
Speaker 1: read some things that called him an anti Stalin communist,
Speaker 1: But in the end, those are not wildly disparate positions.
Speaker 1: They want a revolutionarily different society in which the means
Speaker 1: of production are entirely owned by the workers and also
Speaker 1: the people who make use of the products of them
Speaker 1: or whatever.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that was a useful question. It's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing It took me like twenty years of being
Speaker 1: political before I could actually articulate that, because it's so messy,
Speaker 1: because it's confusing. Yeah, twenty years later or earlier, people
Speaker 1: would have said a completely different thing.
Speaker 2: And also there's such charge terms, so people bring a
Speaker 2: lot of bias to them without necessarily understanding what they mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to all of them. Yeah, it's and it's hard
Speaker 1: because like, in some ways I think that knowing his
Speaker 1: position is useful because it's useful to see like lineages
Speaker 1: and like where things come from and where they're going.
Speaker 1: But it's so murky, and so I think early at
Speaker 1: the end of the day being like, well, he was
Speaker 1: like a radical, absolutely, but he also was just like
Speaker 1: trying to be good to everyone all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and like the fact that he also doesn't
Speaker 1: have a problem with the Catholics a lot of Communists,
Speaker 1: and anarch has had problems with the Catholics and still
Speaker 1: do or any Christians or religion. A lot of them
Speaker 1: are like militantly atheists, especially from Spain. So like he's
Speaker 1: clearly not obsessed with like I must fit this label,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's probably one of the reasons that he
Speaker 2: was such a force for good.
Speaker 1: I think so too. I always like to imagine that
Speaker 1: anarchism wants to not can hold itself constrained, because it's
Speaker 1: theoretically the one that's about free thinking, but it absolutely
Speaker 1: sometimes just ends up just another ideology or whatever. So
Speaker 1: by hanging out with all these folks, all these people
Speaker 1: hanging out together, the nuns themselves and their order become
Speaker 1: less and less hierarchical as time goes on. They write
Speaker 1: essays in this that I was saying. I read an
Speaker 1: essay that was in the newspaper that they circulated only
Speaker 1: for themselves. They wrote an essay about how they hated
Speaker 1: being called guards and they were not guards, and they
Speaker 1: did not were not armed masculine forces of enforcement, you know,
Speaker 1: they were insulted to be called guards. And the Mother
Speaker 1: Superior started off as one of Francescu's fiercest critics and
Speaker 1: then wound up one of his strongest allies. Makes me
Speaker 1: really happy.
Speaker 2: I mean, being able to change your mind is I
Speaker 2: think a sign of great intelligence.
Speaker 1: I agree. Part of their daily struggle, though, during the
Speaker 1: occupation Vichy France, is just to survive. There's no money
Speaker 1: in the Nazi budget for feeding mental patients. Because they
Speaker 1: know how to self organize. They refuse to be isolated
Speaker 1: in their castle, and so they survived. They taught classes
Speaker 1: on mushroom foraging and would go out and forage all
Speaker 1: the time. The nuns in particular actually had really extensive
Speaker 1: knowledge of herbalism thanks to the work of the previous
Speaker 1: director's wife, Germaine Beauvais, who taught them all medicinal herbs
Speaker 1: and not just She's not just like an herb lady,
Speaker 1: although that's a perfectly fine thing to be. Her nineteen
Speaker 1: forty one medical thesis because she also is anyway whatever.
Speaker 1: Her thesis was called on the organization of an insulin
Speaker 1: therapy service and narcotherapy in a rural hospital.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So like, yeah, they do believe in medicine, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's hard science there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they have one of the better insulin administration
Speaker 1: regimes available in France as best as I can tell,
Speaker 1: because she's stuck around and kept working there during the occupation.
Speaker 1: People there participated in the local economy of the town.
Speaker 1: The patients and the doctors and even the accountants would
Speaker 1: leave the asylum and go work in exchange for food
Speaker 1: like butter and turnips were often some of the only
Speaker 1: food they could get. And while there was no ration
Speaker 1: card for mental patients, there were. I promised to bring
Speaker 1: tuberculosis into this story. There were ration cards for people
Speaker 1: with tuberculosis because France was going to take care of
Speaker 1: people with TB, but not people with mental illness.
Speaker 2: Why because you can survive TB and then become part
Speaker 2: of the workforce. Again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it's like not a character flaw in a
Speaker 1: eugenicist way or something like. Okay, And so in the
Speaker 1: first positive story about TV, I think I've done this
Speaker 1: whole time. They started diagnosing everyone with TV in order
Speaker 1: to get ration cards to share all the.
Speaker 2: And you get TV.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. The place became a sort of artist colony
Speaker 1: during the war. It just keeps getting cooler.
Speaker 2: This is amazing.
Speaker 1: Various anti fascists of all stripes would take refuge there,
Speaker 1: Picasso visited the place. It's as important in the history
Speaker 1: of outsider art as it is in psychotherapy. Patients there
Speaker 1: wrote a ton of poetry, and they painted, and they
Speaker 1: made sculptures, and they dresses and all of this stuff, right,
Speaker 1: And sometimes they would open up the courtyard so that villagers,
Speaker 1: as they would walk through, could buy sculptures and art
Speaker 1: for like cigarettes or a few cents, and artists and
Speaker 1: people would come like kind of like study there and
Speaker 1: like learn from the outsider artists or whatever. But there's
Speaker 1: actually some tension around this. Some people are into what's
Speaker 1: called art brew or brutes or something. It's the French
Speaker 1: version of outsider art and it means raw art, right, okay,
Speaker 1: And this is this new art movement, right, and there
Speaker 1: are people who into that, who are into that, who
Speaker 1: were into the art that the patients made, but they're
Speaker 1: into it kind of exploitatively some of them. It's like
Speaker 1: the patients aren't seen seriously as artists, but instead as outsiders,
Speaker 1: like how one might view a child, although perhaps we
Speaker 1: shouldn't view children's art this way either. Just Ka has
Speaker 1: fought hard against this way of seeing the art that
Speaker 1: was made by people living at the asylum. He was like,
Speaker 1: don't fucking exploit people. They are like like art is
Speaker 1: good and they are artists. They're not Wow, even the
Speaker 1: crazy person made a crazy sculpture or whatever the fuck
Speaker 1: you know, and the art's really cool. There's like, literally,
Speaker 1: if you read about this place, you're going to find again,
Speaker 1: not enough about hiding partisans Margaret's interest, but instead lots
Speaker 1: about an art movement and a psychotherapy movement, which are
Speaker 1: both actually perfectly valid. And I would rather do art
Speaker 1: than get shot at. So I guess what am I
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm focusing on Toscatas because I think he's
Speaker 1: and because that's where most of the information is is
Speaker 1: about him. But the whole point, and I think he
Speaker 1: would agree, is that it's not about him and what
Speaker 1: he did, but what the institution as a living entity did.
Speaker 1: To quote Johanna Masso in pair a Practice magazine quote,
Speaker 1: if Sano Bond's legacy still appears to us as political,
Speaker 1: it is because it carries another transmission besides the big
Speaker 1: name guys, that the practices of women psychiatrists and nurses
Speaker 1: who have mostly disappeared from history of the politics of care.
Speaker 1: So like, there's so many unnamed women in this story,
Speaker 1: and I've tried to name the women where I can, right,
Speaker 1: but there's so many more. After the war, they kept going.
Speaker 1: The place is still there today. It's named after Francois Toscadas,
Speaker 1: and he himself, after the war, wrote a nineteen forty
Speaker 1: eight doctoral thesis called the Psychopathology of Lived Experience, which
Speaker 1: is such a like sick name to be like, Yamaya,
Speaker 1: what do I bring to this fucking thesis? Well, I
Speaker 1: ran psychotherapy for an entire fucking country's army, and then
Speaker 1: like in a concentration camp, and then during a war
Speaker 1: in another country. He lived under three occupations, Stalinist, Francoist,
Speaker 1: and German. He referred to the idea of getting mentally
Speaker 1: healthy as deoccupying your mind, and so this is all
Speaker 1: political to him always. In the nineteen fifties he and
Speaker 1: Helene shot a number of films at the hospital, and
Speaker 1: this is where a lot of the like actual images
Speaker 1: of like we know that women were involved because there's
Speaker 1: some fucking video of them, you know. In nineteen fifty three,
Speaker 1: some folks opened up a second asylum in France, operated
Speaker 1: in under the same lines. This to me is mostly
Speaker 1: famous because a philosopher named Felix Guatari worked there for
Speaker 1: a long time, mostly known as Guatari of deluzing Gwatari fame,
Speaker 1: and when I say fame, I mean to people who
Speaker 1: like esoteric leftist philosophy. I named banned nomadic war machine
Speaker 1: after a concept that they have about the nature of
Speaker 1: states and conflict, because I'm a normal person can be
Speaker 1: trusted to do normal things. Maybe the most famous person
Speaker 1: influenced by their methods is a guy named Franz Fanon.
Speaker 1: He is a future friend of the POD. I hope
Speaker 1: he is one of the most important, if not the
Speaker 1: kind of cornerstone decolonial philosophers. His book The Wretched of
Speaker 1: the Earth is like one of the most important books
Speaker 1: and like just literally like, let's study the philosophy of
Speaker 1: how people get fucking free from colonization. He was now Jerian.
Speaker 1: He took the institutional psychotherapy framework about deoccupation and extended
Speaker 1: it to decolonization, and he did his medical residency in
Speaker 1: the early nineteen fifties as Saint Alban. He went back
Speaker 1: to Algeria and he improved upon the work of Sant Alban.
Speaker 1: In case I don't get to do a whole thing
Speaker 1: about him soon. I'm just going to cover it real quick.
Speaker 1: He set up a day clinic so that patients could
Speaker 1: keep living with their families, and, like Toskietas recommended, he
Speaker 1: wanted to treat people close to where their traumas had happened.
Speaker 1: To quote author Gregory Evan Ducas he quote, organized trips
Speaker 1: where nurses could accompany patients and observe how they behaved
Speaker 1: in actual social situations. He encouraged nurses to socialize and
Speaker 1: dine with the patients, something prohibited beforehand. His most radical
Speaker 1: innovation was a suggestion that social movements could facilitate collective transference.
Speaker 1: And I don't entirely know what transference means in this
Speaker 1: case because it's a weird philosophy thing, but I think
Speaker 1: means getting better.
Speaker 2: Well transference in psychology.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, no, tell me.
Speaker 2: Transference in psychology means like associating, Like if you were
Speaker 2: my therapist, I would like transfer my feelings about my
Speaker 2: mother onto you. So it's like transferring your feelings about
Speaker 2: something onto something else. But I don't understand exactly what
Speaker 2: it would mean in that context.
Speaker 1: So in this context, it's like the the social movement
Speaker 1: allows not just an individual, but a collective of people
Speaker 1: to do that same transference. The social movement is therefore
Speaker 1: the therapy for the oppressed people.
Speaker 2: But transference isn't necessarily like healing, right, It's more just
Speaker 2: like something that occurs during therapy.
Speaker 1: But is it part of getting better? Is like I
Speaker 1: don't know. Okay, maybe I'm stretching here. I'm still hold
Speaker 1: by my read of it, but I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's more like something that like the therapist would need
Speaker 2: to be aware of, right, because like you would be
Speaker 2: like I'm not your mother, right, right, or like aware
Speaker 2: that like maybe the client is reacting to you because
Speaker 2: of this transference that is happening, and so being aware
Speaker 2: of that and navigating that.
Speaker 1: Okay, well then I think we don't totally know what
Speaker 1: that part means. And if you are listening and you're
Speaker 1: a big Phenonen head, you probably do know what it means.
Speaker 1: But let us know. Yeah, and so yeah, the asylum
Speaker 1: in France kept going, and also kept going has been
Speaker 1: a lot of the leftist stuff that he participates in,
Speaker 1: inn archosyndicalism in arc of communism, not being a Stalinist
Speaker 1: but still caring about society, and so has people fighting
Speaker 1: for refugees, and the mentally ill and the neurodivergent. And
Speaker 1: one final note, I didn't nowhere else to stick it in,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna have it because it's a quote I like. Well, Okay,
Speaker 1: so he stays in France the rest of his life, tosquiatus.
Speaker 1: So he left the asylum in nineteen sixty two. He
Speaker 1: died in nineteen ninety four, and he did this awesome
Speaker 1: thing where he figured out how to defend his bad French.
Speaker 1: He wrote in the late nineteen eighties quote, I always
Speaker 1: had a theory a psychiatrist, to be a good psychiatrist
Speaker 1: must be a foreigner, or appear to be a foreigner.
Speaker 1: So it's not coquetry on my part to speak French
Speaker 1: so badly. The patient or even a normal guy must
Speaker 1: make an effort to understand me. They are obliged to
Speaker 1: translate and to take an active position toward me. And
Speaker 1: I like that because, like, I'm reading about him through translation,
Speaker 1: and I'm running it through my own experiences and my
Speaker 1: own background and my own context of reading about the
Speaker 1: social movements that he's part of. And I like that.
Speaker 1: I have to and you listeners are doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: With different set of assumptions about all of these things.
Speaker 1: And I like that he likes that. I like that
Speaker 1: he knows that. It's like we are now an active
Speaker 1: part of his story because we're trying to fucking figure.
Speaker 2: It out, and it makes you pay more attention.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, I like I spent way too much
Speaker 1: time trying to figure out exactly how mean identified. Although
Speaker 1: that's my own hang up, uh, but I like, usually
Speaker 1: I do this thing and then I'm like, yeah, but
Speaker 1: I need did this thing. He might have done some
Speaker 1: bad things, but like, man, I don't know about him
Speaker 1: and that love story of where he he fucking loved
Speaker 1: his family, which is a low bar, but a bar
Speaker 1: A lot of fucking people who claim to be good
Speaker 1: people don't fucking meet and like getting forged passes to
Speaker 1: go meet his fucking daughter in the attic where she's hiding,
Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, I'm just like warm and
Speaker 1: fuzzy on that whole fucking place.
Speaker 2: I think it's okay to just sink into that, like
Speaker 2: it's yeah, like you know, some people really live by
Speaker 2: their values, and I think, like you said earlier, he did.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's another thing I didn't even like because
Speaker 1: I again, I was reading a lot of stuff that
Speaker 1: was very anecdotal and a very very translated. Uh. And
Speaker 1: one of those there's one story about him where near
Speaker 1: the end of his life, someone's dying and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: go get the Spaniard, which is what they would call
Speaker 1: him in the town. Go get the Spaniard. I think,
Speaker 1: I think they need someone to come and like therapies
Speaker 1: the dying because he's maybe not religious, he doesn't need
Speaker 1: a priest or something, right, go get the Spaniard because
Speaker 1: he won't charge you. So he was just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I take care of people. That's what we've fucking do.
Speaker 1: And like, I mean, obviously everyone needs a job, and shit,
Speaker 1: it's not wrong to get paid for something, but like,
Speaker 1: poor person's dying, do you know how to help the dine?
Speaker 1: You fucking go do it?
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, And that's your reputation, right, A reputation is
Speaker 2: that's who people go to in those moments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a story. I think a listener on
Speaker 1: this show told me, but I can't remember. There's a
Speaker 1: story about this, like Quaker in Pennsylvania or something, I
Speaker 1: don't know, and someone comes up and is like, hey,
Speaker 1: are you a Christian and he's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: go ask my neighbor.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that.
Speaker 1: And like, yeah, whatever your best self is. Can people
Speaker 1: know that you are trying to do that? You know,
Speaker 1: and we'll all fail.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I think that's the biggest disconnect
Speaker 2: that's happening in our country right now is how many
Speaker 2: people think they're good Christians then are voting to like
Speaker 2: take away rights and punish people like all this horrible stuff.
Speaker 2: And I do wonder, like how do they just not
Speaker 2: think about it?
Speaker 1: I mean it's like it's this is one of those
Speaker 1: words that's just like like any of the ideological words
Speaker 1: that I was describing. There's like two thousand years of
Speaker 1: different shit getting called Christian, you know, and like the
Speaker 1: core text isn't internally consistent. I'll phrase it that way,
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, you got Quakers who are like one
Speaker 1: of the main backbones of the abolitionist movement. You've got
Speaker 1: like it's just all over the place. You have people
Speaker 1: doing horrible things in the name of ideology or religion
Speaker 1: and amazing things in the name of ideology and religion,
Speaker 1: and like often under the same names. But like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, the Catholic national the Christian nationalism things, right,
Speaker 1: Catholic nationalism is Franco Spain Christian nationalism, which is more
Speaker 1: Protestant that we're dealing with now, I don't it's a
Speaker 1: fucking nightmare.
Speaker 2: I've just been shocked, you know, as a Jewish person,
Speaker 2: how people are to me. It is so fundamentally Unjewish
Speaker 2: to wish to wipe out the population of people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, yeah.
Speaker 2: That's wild to me, and I'm having a really hard
Speaker 2: time with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. I don't fucking envy you dealing with that
Speaker 1: and like getting your fucking name invoked as this like
Speaker 1: hapless victim that needs Christian nationalists to fucking wipe people out.
Speaker 2: Or like anti Semitism being used as like this magical
Speaker 2: word to allow for any kind of behavior. Yeah, in retaliation, right,
Speaker 2: it's wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well on that note, but you know, we need more.
Speaker 2: But there are good people even in the worst of times.
Speaker 2: And so who knows in like seventy years who people
Speaker 2: will be talking about in this moment of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, good point. It's also always important to
Speaker 1: remember that like the Great Man theory of history is nonsense,
Speaker 1: and it's people who are just people just doing things
Speaker 1: and being like, I think we can get something done,
Speaker 1: and we are making history right now, Like I cover
Speaker 1: you know, social movements that change the world that started
Speaker 1: with like five people being like what if we don't
Speaker 1: let everyone we know diab ades or you know, whatever
Speaker 1: the thing is. Yeah, the things that we do have
Speaker 1: actual impact. We're part of history right now. But if
Speaker 1: you want to step outside of history and read fiction,
Speaker 1: which it's honestly sometimes a relaxing and necessary balm for
Speaker 1: your brain, uh many book wrecks.
Speaker 2: Yes, I can promise that. My new roalm com novel
Speaker 2: that came out yesterday when you're listening to this is
Speaker 2: called Save the Date, and I think it's some escapist
Speaker 2: fun while still being you know, grounded and realistic characters
Speaker 2: and getting to have a lot of like funny family
Speaker 2: dynamics along with the love stories.
Speaker 1: I sort of love having you on as like a
Speaker 1: rom com writer, as I'm then like, let me tell
Speaker 1: you about this like horrible war and these like radical
Speaker 1: like you know, political folks. But I like how these
Speaker 1: to me don't seem like well they're disparate and that
Speaker 1: they're not the same thing. But I really like thinking
Speaker 1: about how it's just like, well, it's all just people
Speaker 1: and it's not Yeah, you know, like we all contain multitudes.
Speaker 2: And my other work is all psychology based.
Speaker 1: That's true. So yeah, yeah, you're.
Speaker 2: Catching me on a day where I'm leading with rom
Speaker 2: com writer, but other times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is why I have you on for mental
Speaker 1: health ones. I was like, I've been have had the
Speaker 1: story in my back pocket for a minute and ever
Speaker 1: since doing Fountain House in Bethel House. And then I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, Allison's on the schedule, this is the
Speaker 1: one we're doing.
Speaker 2: And then in save the Date, she's she's a couple therapists,
Speaker 2: So I get to insert a lot of my thoughts
Speaker 2: on psychology as well.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, well remember to save the date, which was yesterday,
Speaker 1: and pick up the book and uh what else? Get
Speaker 1: together with your friends and make plans. That's my pitch
Speaker 1: and plug is that think about contingencies and think about
Speaker 1: how you're going to help people, and think about how
Speaker 1: you're going to be your best self when bad things happen,
Speaker 1: because people are going to be reading about what you're
Speaker 1: doing right now seventy years from now.
Speaker 2: You can't control everything, but you can keep a hold
Speaker 2: of your humanity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, see y'all next week.
Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of
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