1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff, your weekly podcast that actually comes out 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: twice a week, and yet I've been introducing it as 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: a weekly podcast for however long because in my head, 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: two episodes is one episode, because I do it by 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: weeks and that's the way that my brain is able 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: to handle it. My name is Margaret Kiljoy and my 8 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: guest today is Alison Ruskin. How are you? 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: I'm good. How are you doing on our second episode 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: of the day. 11 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: I know, well, you're the author of Save the Date, 12 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: which came out yesterday, and I just want to ask 13 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: how did the release go. 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: I'm gonna I don't believe in manifesting at all, but 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: for a hot second, I'll pretend to, and I'll say 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: it went so well amazing, it took the world by storm. 17 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and probably nothing world endingly bad happened randomly on 18 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: the day that your book came out. 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: Well, god, I hope not. 20 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: Oh, I just did the current administration and all that stuff. 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: I know, Well, probably something rather bad happened is every day. 22 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, But you know, the whole weird subtitle of this 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: show is that when there's bad things happening, there's also 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: good things happening, and we pay attention to the good things, 25 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: even if we have to understand the bad things to 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: understand how the good things are related to the bad things. 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: That's my ontological viewpoint that makes the world into good 28 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: and bad. Don't question that too much. But instead we 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: can say that our producer is Sophie who isn't here today, 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: and our audio engineer is Rory hi Rory hi Ror, 31 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: and our theme music was written for ud By Unwoman. 32 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: And this is part two of a two parter about 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: San Albam, which I did not successfully find out how 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: to pronounce, and so usually when I read French, I 35 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: just start dropping letters and hope for the best. And 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: I think I'm vaguely better at pronouncing it than i 37 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: am other languages I do try. I hate. One of 38 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: my least favorite things is exactly what I'm doing right now, 39 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: where podcasters are like, I can't pronounce things. It's literally 40 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: your job to figure out how to pronounce things and 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: then say them on air, and I try to do that. 42 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: I just want to say I try to do that, 43 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: and I don't always succeed. And so now I'm paying 44 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: way more attention to this and making it all worse. 45 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: But this is part two about a revolutionary in multiple 46 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: senses psychotherapy psychiatric hospital in rural France that changed a 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: lot about how psychotherapy and psychiatry can be done and 48 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: sometimes how it has been done. And when we last 49 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: left our hero, he had just crossed the Pyrenees and 50 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: then set up in a concentration camp and then gotten 51 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: out of the concentration camp to go take over, not takeover, 52 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: but go help as Saint Alban and pick up after 53 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: the work of Agnes Messon, who's you know, as I've 54 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: complained about, largely left out of history. So Toskida shows 55 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: up at this place that had a really solid anti 56 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: fascist reformer who had been hard at work for years, 57 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: but she's been gone for about two years at this point. 58 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: The guy who replaced her was genuinely also pretty good 59 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: like he was trying to make things better. He just 60 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: wasn't as like, specifically groundbreaking as other person. The fact 61 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: that he was trying to make the place better is 62 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: probably why he invited an anti authoritarian socialist to come help. 63 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: At the time that Francesque shows up, there there's only 64 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: twenty caretakers and a few nuns. I don't know how 65 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: many patients are there. The nuns were from the Order 66 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: of San Regi, which is the patron saint of at 67 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: risk women and orphans. So he's a world famous psychotherapist 68 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: who's run huge chunks of shit for the Spanish Republic. 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: But because he's a foreigner, the French government is like, 70 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: you can be assistant nurse. So his salary and job 71 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: title is assistant nurse. But as far as I can tell, 72 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: he's kind of running the place, or rather, since he's 73 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: pretty into non hierarchy, he's restructuring the place in a 74 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: way in which his ideas are agreed upon by people. 75 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: And when he shows up, he's really impressed by what's 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: been started. Because again he doesn't write out the things 77 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: that women have done. He's specifically impressed by the abandoning 78 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: of straight jackets. He's like, oh shit, that's amazing. You know. 79 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: He wanted to change things up right away and keep 80 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: going even further. A lot of the infrastructural changes have 81 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: been done, but there's all this other stuff that he 82 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: wants to do, and people start letting him do it. 83 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: He's never formally in charge, at least as far as 84 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: we're going to get in the story this week. Now 85 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: he's actually named after him, this place. They've changed the 86 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: name of it, it's still around. And one of the 87 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: reasons that people are down to listen to him is 88 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: that he says that the average French person knows how 89 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: badly they fucked up by not helping in the Spanish 90 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: Civil War. Remember, I was saying, how last time, how 91 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: they like they had a popular Front, they're supposed to 92 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 1: stop fascism, but then didn't do anything when their neighbor 93 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: fell to fascism. You know, he said, quote they all 94 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: carried significant guilt over France's non intervention in the Spanish 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: Civil War. They realized after the fact that if the 96 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: French government or workers had supported the republic, if they 97 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: had transformed the popular Front movement into a revolutionary movement 98 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: and not a demand for paid vacations, the whole history 99 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: of the world would have been folded different. Wow. 100 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: That's a sick burn. I know, I know that paid 101 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: vacation's jab. I mean he got to the point. 102 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: To make things a little better for the workers until 103 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: both countries fell to fascism. You cowardly fucks. 104 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: Wow, that is an interesting sliding door moment. 105 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: Right wait, what's a sliding door moment. 106 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: It's the idea of like, if one thing was different, 107 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: you'd like your whole reality would be different. 108 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. 109 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: It's also a delightful movie called Sliding Doors. 110 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: No, I think a lot about I spent I spent 111 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: way too much of my time thinking about the spanishivil 112 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: war in general. But like, yeah, if if people had 113 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: prevented Spain from falling, like how much worse the world 114 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: would have gotten. But on the other hand, the other 115 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: thing that I spend way too much of my time 116 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: thinking about, and I could be wrong about this, but okay, 117 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: hear me out. M Franco tried to have a coup. 118 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: He tried to have a simple thing where he became 119 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: in charge. He didn't get it. Instead, he got three 120 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: years of war where he had to fight tooth and 121 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: nail across Spain. And because anti fascists threw down so hard, 122 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: Franco took over a country that was guttedually half his 123 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: army's fucking dead, all of his munitions are spent right 124 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: because of that, that is part of why he doesn't 125 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: enter World War two on the Fascist side is that 126 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: Spain isn't in a position to enter a war. They 127 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: just barely won one. Right. Oh, And now the argument 128 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: is whether or not if Spain had entered the war 129 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: on the side of the Nazis, whether or not the 130 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: Nazis would have won. And I don't know the answer 131 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: to it. But there's a version where some cops and 132 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: some anarchists who don't like each other working together saved 133 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: the fucking world by not letting him take Spain in 134 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: a coup and dragging it out into a war. 135 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: I like this thesis. 136 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. 137 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: I do too, I'm behind it. 138 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like versions where of the things we do, 139 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: even when it looks like we lose, still matter, you know. 140 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well that's a good that's a very good thing 141 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: to hold onto right now in this moment in American history. 142 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: I think about all the time when I'm reading history, too, right, 143 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: because there's so many things that like, like, eventually we 144 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: stop chattel slavery in this country, right, And it took 145 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: the deadliest war that America has ever participated in in 146 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: terms of American lives lost, and the things that led 147 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: up to it looked like failures. You had Nat Turner's rebellion, 148 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: you had John Brown's rebellion and a lot of other 149 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: rebellions besides that as the two off the top of 150 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: my head. And overall you're like, well, those people lost 151 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: and they died, right, but like they also sparked this 152 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: war and they helped en chattel slavery. I don't know. Yeah, 153 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: that's what I hold on too. 154 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: That's actually very helpful, and I shall now be holding 155 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: onto it as well. 156 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: Cool. 157 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: And also all of my personal failures are just laying 158 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: the groundwork for you know, a huge success later on. 159 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. I mean I actually liked kind of genuinely 160 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: but right, because like the way you learn to do 161 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: things is by failing at it. Yeah, you know, if 162 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: you only ever succeed, it's stuff you are not trying 163 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: hard enough. So if you only succeed politically, you're not 164 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: asking for enough. 165 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: That's interesting. 166 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: And so yeah, he shows up and the French people, 167 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: because the average peasant in France there's a really good 168 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: chance they're a communist or a socialist of some stripe. 169 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: Right at this point in history, we tend to forget 170 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: that because of the Cold War and misunderstandings about what 171 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: communism and socialism are that have been ingrained to us 172 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: since we were little kids, you know. And so they're 173 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: not wild eyed radicals, but they're communists or socialists, and 174 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: they feel guilty. So they are like, okay, guy, we'll 175 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: follow your lead. And just to follow up on the 176 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: concentration camp that he left. On June twenty second, nineteen forty, 177 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: France formally surrendered to Nazi Germany, and you get the 178 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: start of what's called the VSHI government, the collaborate racist 179 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: government of France, where they're basically just run by the Nazis. 180 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: By nineteen forty two, that same camp, that infrastructure that 181 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: was built to hold refugees was now controlled by the fascists, 182 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: which is a thing with a lot of them out 183 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: in parallels. Right, When democrats build up state power and 184 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: the ability to do repression, and like clearly Biden did 185 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff to expand border patrols and like 186 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: set of concentration camps on the border, all of that 187 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: is then inherited by fascists, right, So this camp is 188 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: inherited by fascists in nineteen forty two, and it became 189 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: what we understand as a Nazi concentration camp from which 190 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: Jews were shipped to Auschwitz. In August nineteen forty four, 191 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: it was liberated by the French Resistance. At this point 192 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: in the war, the USSR and Stalin are still allied 193 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: with the Nazis. The US hasn't entered the war yet, 194 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: and so the UK is kind of the only ones 195 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: still standing against fascism. WI must have just honestly, straight 196 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: up been one of the worst times to be alive 197 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: in terms of fighting despair. Like I really hate when 198 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: I got to hand it to the UK, but like 199 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: and even like Churchill's advisors and shit are like, yeah, 200 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: you got to surrender to the Nazis. We're just gonna lose, 201 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: you know that, right, England should just go fascist, We 202 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: should just give up, We should surrender, you know. And 203 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: then being like nah, but we can't though because they're 204 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: Nazis was crucial, Yeah, change the world. So it was 205 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: a hard time to be alive, just chaos. He is 206 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: reinventing what an asylum can be in the middle of 207 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: all of this fucking shit, just like like this is 208 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: the moment where he's like, let's try some radically new shit. 209 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 2: Well maybe because everyone had bigger things to worry about, 210 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: nobody was like bothering with what he was up to. 211 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's that's actually a decent point. Yeah, 212 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: and like everyone's like, well, we're all dead anyway, so 213 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: like all. 214 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: Right, you know, yes, like whatever this guy's doing, who cares, 215 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: I gotta deal. 216 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: With Yeah, yeah exactly. And so he actually, to the 217 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: end of his days, he really likes the term asylum 218 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: for these kinds of places. He likes it because it's 219 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: a place of refuge and he himself is a refugee. Ah. 220 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: He immediately pulls the bars off all the windows and 221 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: he starts letting patients go into town and trade things 222 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: and sell things and make friends and participate in the 223 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: social life of this small town. He also starts sending 224 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: postcards to his wife, to Helene, and specifically they're not 225 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: just postcards of like here's the pretty place I'm at, 226 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: but he's like left notes. It's like maps of the town, 227 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: and he's like he's basically being like, well, they're all 228 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: annotated so that, according to his daughter quote, so that 229 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: my mother could get to know the area, because he's like, 230 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: you're gonna be here, you know, and also you're gonna 231 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: be smuggled in, so like get to know the area. 232 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: Helene who is absolutely a badass in her own right. 233 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: She starts saving up money to pay a trafficker to 234 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: get her and her daughter north and is selling off 235 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: furniture on the black market. Under Franco, this is the 236 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: kind of thing I'm afraid of here. Under Franco, there's 237 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: no free travel around the country. So Helene managed to 238 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: get a maybe forged but I'm not sure, safe conduct 239 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: certificate to allow them to travel to Barcelona. So they're 240 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: not even leaving like Catalonia, but even within Catalonia. In 241 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: order to go from one town to the big city, 242 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: they got to get permission. Murray Rose was four and 243 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: a half years old. On the night that they left, 244 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: her grandmother cried and kissed her and said how she 245 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: would die without ever seeing her again. They made it 246 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: to Barcelona to stay with family, and Helene started sewing 247 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: and cooking for fascist generals in order to save money. 248 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: And then they travel at night in a train of 249 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: refugees through the mountains. I want to say that about 250 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: like ten of them or so, and they're led by 251 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: a smuggler, a trafficker. Murray Rose remembers the huge moon 252 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: over the hills and asks her mom does Papa see 253 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: the same moon, and you know, Mom's like, yeah, and 254 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: that was like kind of it was a hard time 255 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: as a four and a half year old across over 256 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: the mountains. 257 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: Impressive she remembers it, I. 258 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: Know, and I think it's kind of one of those 259 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: things that's like a round where memory starts and then 260 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: you throw in like this. And also her letters, she 261 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: clearly she actually wrote a whole book about her family's history, 262 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: but it's only in French, and so I think she's 263 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: also probably drawing from her mother's memory as well when 264 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: she writes about this. But the trafficker betrayed them. He 265 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: led them through the mountains and down into a valley 266 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: and he's like, yeah, you're in France, give me your money, 267 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: and so it gives them, you know, all this money 268 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: they've been saving up for a fucking year or whatever, 269 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: and he takes off. They are still in Spain. 270 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: That's such bullshit, I be. I know, what an evil, deeply, 271 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: deeply evil person. 272 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: I know. Marie Rose Like in her letters talks about 273 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: how the plight of the modern refugee is nothing different 274 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: than what she experienced. And one of the things she 275 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: talks about is she's like the people who do this 276 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: smuggling and trafficking are just motivated by profit and like, 277 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, right, But here's where it turns around, and 278 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: fucking humans rule. They're in this tiny Spanish probably Bosque, 279 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: but I'm not certain. They're in this tiny town, and 280 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: a shepherd from the little village is like, all right, 281 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: my nephew will take you for free. And so this 282 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: young man like throws the four year old over his 283 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: shoulders and they fucking take off through the mountains and 284 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: they hike all night. They camp in the ruins of 285 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: a church, and she wakes up in the morning. Marie 286 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: Rose wakes up in the morning to see snow for 287 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: the first time in her life. 288 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: What a like metaphor that every thing's going to be 289 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: different now I know, like. 290 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: This is the story. I want to see a movie 291 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: of the closest I've ever seen. There's a movie that 292 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: I didn't want to watch because of its title, and 293 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: then I finally watched that's actually really beautiful. This movie 294 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: called The Anarchist Wife, and it's either French or Spanish, 295 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: and it's about a refugee family from the Spanish Civil 296 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: War of anarchists, where the husband was the militant, but 297 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: the women, the woman is the protagonist and just as 298 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: much of a part of everything, just like happened to 299 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: not have been at the front or whatever. And it's 300 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: about their like time doing partisan resistance and sit It's 301 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: actually a really beautiful movie. But I was like, she 302 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: could be a fucking anarchist too. Fuck you. You know. 303 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: It's provocative. 304 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. It did provoke me, and it actually 305 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: is probably why I watched it in the end too. 306 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: And this whole account is worth reading. Honestly, her account 307 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: is one of the coolest things I've read for this show. 308 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: If you read French, she wrote a whole lass book. 309 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: But if you want to read these letters, there's four 310 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: of them. They're on Ben Platt's Mills blog. The link 311 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: to will be in the show notes and the sources. 312 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: And so they they go down into the valley this 313 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: time it's actually in France, and gendarmes catch them and 314 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: they're like, no, you're you're not French. You gotta go back. 315 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: But and Marie Rose actually believes the gendarmes were kind 316 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: of in on it. The gendarmes are like, look, we 317 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: got to take you back in the morning. Why don't 318 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 1: you stay at this hotel for a night and then 319 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: we'll take you back in the morning. And they go 320 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: in and the hotel worker is like this woman is like, nah, 321 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: fuck no, I'm gonna hide your asses, like you're not 322 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: getting deported, Like what the fuck? 323 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 324 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: And so when the gendarmes come back the next morning 325 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: and then they're like, we're looking for the person, and 326 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: then the hotel workers like, I don't know, they must 327 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: have left in the middle of the night. Uh, they're 328 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: hidden in the attic, and they hide there for days, 329 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: maybe for weeks, because that's also worth knowing. This is 330 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: Nazi controlled territory, right, you know, like even though it's like, oh, 331 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: we made it out of Spain, frying pan, fire, et cetera. 332 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: You know, her husband's in the fire, so she's going 333 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: to the fire, you know, and so they hit there 334 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: for days, maybe weeks, in this attic. Meanwhile, Francesque it's 335 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: not safe for him to travel either because Nazis do 336 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: as Nazis do. There's no free travel within Nazi controlled 337 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: to France, but he sorts it out. The prefect of 338 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: Los Are, the province or whatever, fakes up a document 339 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: for him to travel, and so he takes it and 340 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: he heads off, and Francesque walks into that attic room 341 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: and the daughter walks up and is like hello, sir, 342 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: and like sticks out her hand, and she said, quote, 343 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: this is the first image, like the first memory I 344 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: have of my dad. I don't remember him before this meeting. 345 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: Obviously we saw each other intermittently during those four years 346 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: of war, but I have no recollection of it. I 347 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: knew as a photograph. Mother relates that as a child 348 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: I rushed into the legs of all the men with 349 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: glasses and a mustache, but it was never him. And 350 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: so on December sixth, nineteen forty, she met her dad 351 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: and got to grow up with him after all, and 352 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: they went to Saint Alban And you know what may 353 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: or may not have been on the carriage, like the 354 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: train walls, what advertisements. I don't know if they had 355 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: invented in train advertisements at that point, but if they hadn't, 356 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: they'd been really missing out on a lucrative opportunity for 357 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: people to hear about all kinds of things. Some of 358 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: the ads are even for good things, like going hiking 359 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: with your friends. That's literally Sometimes we get an ad 360 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: for go to the Woods and you know, only listen 361 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: to whatever. Use your own fucking judgment. You know how 362 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: advertising works. You live in this society. Here they are 363 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: and we're back, okay. And I was listening to this 364 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: other podcast that everyone should listen to called sixteenth Minute 365 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: of Fame with Jamie Loftus that's also a part of 366 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: the Cool Zone media network, and in it, she does 367 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: this thing where she's talking to everyone who's I'm completely 368 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: off script here, but everyone probably has figured that out. 369 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: She's talking to the people who do brand Twitter and 370 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: like brand TikTok, you know, and like how they like 371 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: like the horny dual lingo owl and shit like that. 372 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: Right, didn't they kill him? 373 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? They killed him? 374 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 375 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: I learned that through through the podcast. I don't know 376 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: anything about pop culture, so I learned it through Jamie's podcast. 377 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: And they specifically have a word for anti advertising, which 378 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: is when you like, are like real cynical and you're like, 379 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: I hate capitalism, but here's some ads. I genuinely think 380 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: that's why they let me get away with it. 381 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: Well, when we were growing our YouTube channel, we would 382 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: do branded content, like we would just be like, hey, everyone, 383 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: we need money, and then it would be this wonderful 384 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: thing where our audience would be like get the bag. Yeah, 385 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 2: you exactly understood. 386 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: I think it's fair to just bring people in on 387 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: it because it's like, look like we all have jobs, 388 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, Like, yeah, my dog eats food for some reason, 389 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: and so do I, you know, and yeah, I like that. 390 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: I like just kind of being like just up front, like, look, 391 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: we're doing a thing, because I'm not like ashamed of 392 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: it either, right, It's just a thing, you know. 393 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 2: And it's how advertisements have like been the backboat of 394 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: so much media. Yeah, for I mean that's why you 395 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: get TV, that's why you get a lot of newspapers, 396 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: like totally. So it's important. 397 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, until we live in a better society, and then 398 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: I can't even be like a literally last week's was 399 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: about how in the USSR, all art had to be 400 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: state sponsored. So if you weren't hired by the state 401 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: to make art, you like weren't allowed to write, you know, 402 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: and publish, and so it was all about how people 403 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: got around that by writing anyway. So never forget that 404 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: more than one thing can be bad at once. 405 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to seeing what Trump does with the 406 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: Kennedy Center, and what beautiful shows he'll bring to the 407 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:24,239 Speaker 2: stage they're programming is now just Trump's interests. 408 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: I bet you. Every now and then there'll be like 409 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: someone playing Trump and he like won't be handsome enough, 410 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: and then we'll get arrested or something. 411 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's so true. 412 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: That whole thing where he freaked out about the painting 413 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: that wasn't good enough about him really just was like, yeah, 414 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: we got a dictators That's what this is. 415 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's really just so glaring how much 416 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: everything is fueled by his insecurity. Yeah, that he is 417 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 2: just like a true narcissist who cannot handle any sort 418 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 2: of attack at his being. 419 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, well, hopefully redacted and anyway, So Francesca and 420 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: Helene and Marie Rose make it to Saint alban and 421 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: in most texts, francesquets basically all the credit for doing everything, 422 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: but like some are actually aware that Helene was just 423 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: as vital to the functioning of the place, and that's 424 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: this I'm more likely to believe that. But also specifically, 425 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: the patients and the other doctors and the nurses and 426 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: the nuns all work together. And I know they work 427 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: together because they restructured the place to work together, and 428 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: so like the idea of big man of history ing 429 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: an anarchist who got rid of the hierarchy, or an 430 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: actual communist who doesn't believe in hierarchy who got rid 431 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: of the hierarchy. Within this place, it's just obscene. So 432 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: they're at the asylum and they're transforming it. They're drawing 433 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: on psychoanalysis, anti authoritarian communism, and surrealism or like they're 434 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: three like well Spring. He takes the bars off the window. 435 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: He's letting people on the go into town. He taught 436 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: the basics of therapy to villagers because he figured everyone 437 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: was gonna need it because they're all under occupation. I 438 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: mean he's not wrong, Yeah, no, totally. Together they developed geopsychiatry, 439 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 1: in which space itself is part of the therapy and 440 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: that the space itself needed to be healed. It wasn't 441 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: until the fifties that this gets more of the proper name. 442 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: But I'll get to in a second. A lot of 443 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: their stuff is stuff that we've seen elsewhere, usually later, 444 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: but actually fountain houses. Around the same time as this, 445 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: they try to break down the social hierarchy between doctor 446 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: and patient. They start like sleeping in the same place, 447 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: eating the same food. The nurses aren't wearing different uniforms, 448 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: and they become mutually involved in keeping the space clean 449 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: and functional, so people have a steak in the place working, 450 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, being maintained and cleaned and things like that. 451 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: This strange madhouse is where the mood with the misleading name. 452 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: I told you that I was eventually gonna have a name. 453 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: The name of this style is institutional psychotherapy. 454 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 2: That doesn't sound good, It sounds terrible. 455 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: The idea, as best as I can understand, isn't institutionalized 456 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: psychotherapy right right, but rather the institution itself is sick 457 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: and it needs psychotherapy. 458 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: Oh now that's beautiful. Yeah, but again it's a language 459 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: use problem. 460 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: Uh huh, and all that's just coming from French. And 461 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: then like they're actually literally going to inspire a lot 462 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: of the people who are sort of the continental theorist 463 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: model of philosophy, like to losing Gatari and Friends Phenon 464 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: and actually he's probably considered anti colonial, not continental, and 465 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: I think for co but I can more specifically tie 466 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: in to losing Gatari and Friends Phenon and to losing 467 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: Gatari are philosophers who specifically write in his continental theory style. 468 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: That's so fucking hard to understand, but it's sort of 469 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: meant to be that way, according to a Greek theory 470 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: had I asked about this once. I was like, why 471 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: the fuck is all this incomprehensible? And he was like, literally, 472 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: in France, they developed this idea that it like should 473 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: be poetic and kind of like make you uneasy and 474 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: make you really interrogate the text. And I'm like, I'm 475 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: a simple girl. I like, like like George Orwell's rules 476 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: for writing, which is like, right, as simply as you can, 477 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, like don't dumb things down, but make things 478 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: as simple as you possibly can. Yeah, but that's not 479 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: necessarily the page they're on, so they probably didn't even 480 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: give a shit. That is a fucking incomprehensible name institutional psychotherapy. 481 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: To quote author Sasha Warren, the hospital was sick. It 482 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: had a social life, but it was impoverished and dehumanizing. 483 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: It claimed to offer shelter and refuge from the outside world, 484 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: but it took the form of a prison or even 485 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: a camp. If the assa was to become a real refuge, 486 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: then its role must be to disoccupy and disalienate the person, 487 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: not replace one alienation with another, Like that's reasonably clear. 488 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, one alienation, what is the the other? So one 489 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 2: alienation is like being removed from regular society and then 490 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 2: just replacing it with like being alienated within the institute. 491 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, I think it's about I mean, 492 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: they also present this idea that like society, modern capitalist 493 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: society is itself alienating, and that it is like breaking 494 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: down social bonds and things like that. But I think 495 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: that they I think they are talking about the specific 496 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: alienation of being you know, quote unquote mad or whatever. Yeah, 497 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: and then going into this place where you're now just 498 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: another alienation. One of the interesting things about reading about 499 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: all of this is I'm much more interested in the 500 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: part where they're going to smuggle guns to partisans and 501 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: less interested in the theory. But most of what is written, 502 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority of what is written and what I read, 503 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: is about the theory. And so I actually read a 504 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,479 Speaker 1: lot about their ideas of alienation. But I kind of 505 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: didn't get at all. 506 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 2: A simple girl, you had to save your storage for 507 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 2: the gun. 508 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: Stuff, Yeah, exactly, And this was very specifically not an 509 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: anti institutional framework for care that is a movement within 510 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: certain psychiatric movements or anti psychiatric movements, right is to 511 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: be anti institutional but they believed deeply that place mattered. 512 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: During Francescue's time in Spain, he had tried to make 513 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: sure that each region had its own therapeutic methods that 514 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: fit their own culture and land and community. He tried 515 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: to engage the actual community in people's care. So the 516 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: institution had to become a place of actual care and 517 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: an actual home, and people needed to be disalienated from 518 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: the place that they were, like that they literally are, 519 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: right then, you know, And this approach was specifically practical 520 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: in the VC France world. Okay, so Nazi Germany had 521 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: like we'll call it hard genetics where they just kind 522 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: of killed everyone right, very famously, like if you're disabled 523 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: in some way, they're like, we're gonna fucking kill you. 524 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: We're horrible. Nazis Vichy France were soft eugenicists. Their policy, 525 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: which isn't better was to just leave institutionalize people to 526 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: starve or freeze to death by stopping taking care of them. 527 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 2: Ah all right, yeah, sort of a passive approach to 528 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: your eugenics. 529 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And their definition of madness at the time. 530 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: Madness is always socially constructed. But the definition of madness 531 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: that v she France is working on includes criminals, It 532 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: includes disabled people, it includes queer people. Forty thousand people 533 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: died of starvation and neglect or or murdered by vc 534 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: France through soft eugenics. No one, not one of the 535 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: patients died as san al bond during the occupation of 536 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: starvation or neglect because they had a collective process to 537 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: solve their immediate needs. The barrier between patient and doctor 538 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: and partisan hiding in the place all blurred together because 539 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: did I mention their hiding partisans. I will get to 540 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: that soon. Tuscaus wrote, quote, the human is a creature 541 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: that goes from one space to another. She cannot stay 542 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 1: all the time in the same place. That's to say 543 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: that the human is always a pilgrim, a creature who 544 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: goes elsewhere. And this idea of migration and change is 545 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: fundamental to his philosophy, and I fucking love it so 546 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: much that I shoehorned it in the script where it 547 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: didn't really fit. He wrote that the first right of 548 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: man is to wander. I also love that he's like both, 549 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: writing like the first right of man and then he's 550 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: using like sheep pronouns and this stuff. I get the 551 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: impression that he was doing the kind of thing that 552 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: people were doing back in the day, where like everything 553 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: is gendered and so they just kind of go back 554 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: and forth, you. 555 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: Know, but there's a level of awareness there that's nice 556 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: to see. 557 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, totally. Like I actually think that was 558 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: a very conscious thing that people did a lot, is 559 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: that they were like, he will do this, she will 560 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: do that, you know, as a way to again, not 561 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: a man who wrote the women out of his script 562 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: in his life, and they also developed this idea. Well, 563 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: they're not the only people who developed this idea comes 564 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: from a lot of different leftist political tendencies. They believe 565 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: in a permanent revolution and including like in the psychotherapy world, 566 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: that is to say, there is no perfect thing you'll reach. 567 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: You don't reach utopia. You build utopia and you are 568 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: constantly building it. The place the institution can always be improved, 569 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: We will always learn new methods, we will always be 570 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: trying to do better. 571 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: I love that approach. Yeah, me too, because I think, 572 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 2: especially with a lot of people in their mental health journeys, 573 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: it's like, but why I aren't I all better yet? 574 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: And it's like you're never going to be all better. Yeah, 575 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 2: you're just taking care of yourself throughout your life. 576 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And I wonder if that even like helps 577 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: to be like just like the institution you live at 578 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: and are working kind of with as a patient, you know, 579 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: being like, look, you're never going to fully clean the floor, 580 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: but we want the floors to be clean, and you 581 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: want the floors to be clean too, And you're never 582 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: going to not have anger issues or whatever your thing is, 583 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: but we can work on it, you know exactly. They 584 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: set up a lot of occupational therapy things. Like one 585 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: of the things I love is that, like this story 586 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: and Fountain House and Bethel House, they all I kind 587 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: of hit upon really similar stuff and there's some conscious 588 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: communication happening, but like, well, now there is a lot 589 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: because I know that well, I know people work at 590 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: Fountain House and they're the people who told me about 591 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: this story, But I don't know that there was like 592 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: conscious communication happening when both things are happening same time, right, 593 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: They set up occupational therapy things. There's art and trades, 594 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: there's throwing parties and festivals, patients ran their own bar, 595 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: and I think it's not just for patients. I think 596 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: it's for villagers too, but I'm not one hundred percent 597 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: certain if you were playing cool people bingo. They also 598 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: had a newspaper, and I think they had a newspapers 599 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: for specifically only the people living at the place, so 600 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: it was a kind of internal when they could kind 601 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: of like talk shit and stuff. You know. 602 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: I'd love if they had like a gossip column of 603 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: like B and B seeing of like who was eating 604 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: lunch with who? 605 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: And I would not be surprised if they did. 606 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: Like a page six of just the people. 607 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: Would I would not be surprised. I only found one 608 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: essay from one of these newspapers, and it was very 609 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 1: internal and it was like some nuns talking about like 610 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: how they felt about their position within the place. But 611 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: I would not be surprised at all if it was like, 612 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: can you believe that Sam is eating fucking beans? Again? 613 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: If there's Sam always eating beans? Know he fart? 614 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 2: You know? 615 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: They also and so in addition to just being like, hey, 616 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: you get to do arts and crafts, they politically set 617 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: it up so that the patients have power. They set 618 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: up a patient club which is a political body made 619 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: up of patients that had significant power over the asylum. 620 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 1: And this is a thing that I run across with 621 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: a lot of syndicalist ideas. Is this not just about 622 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: one thing I love? Is I love worker cooperatives where 623 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: workers own the store, whereas most like co op grocery 624 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: stores are owners cooperatives where the customers own the store. 625 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: I am currently distracted because a dog has appeared in 626 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: my field of vision on screen, Alison, what is that 627 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: dog's name? 628 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 2: This is Phantom? 629 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: Hi, Phantom. No one else can see Phantom because Phantom's invisible. 630 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: They're a phantom. But Phantom is very cute. 631 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 2: He's a really nice guy. 632 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: So so instead of just having a worker's cooperative or 633 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: an owner's cooperative, people tried to set up both. Like 634 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: a lot of all the ideas a syndiclus would have 635 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,959 Speaker 1: would be like, look, if there's a school, it should 636 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: be run by the teachers and the students and the 637 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: parents of the students. It's everyone who has a stake 638 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: in how it happens. Right, So if there's a store, 639 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: the people who want to buy stuff from that store 640 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: and the people who work in the store should probably 641 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: be the people who make the decisions about the store collectively, 642 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: so they have the patients and the doctors have their 643 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: own sort of political and the caretakers or whatever have 644 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: their own political bodies to help control what's happening. Sos 645 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: Kaos wrote, quote, nothing should ever be obvious. Everything is 646 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: subject to discussion. Everybody must be consulted. Everybody can decide, 647 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,439 Speaker 1: not just for the sake of democracy, but in order 648 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: to facilitate the progressive conquest of speech. To learn mutual respect, 649 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: the patients must be able to have a say on 650 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: the conditions of their stay and their care, their rights 651 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,919 Speaker 1: of exchanges, expression and circulation, and so it's like part 652 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: of their therapy to be empowered. 653 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 2: I think mutual respect is such an important backbone. Yeah, 654 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 2: of like all relationships. 655 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: Totally one of the things that like, okay, well, it's 656 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: even the next sentence. Conflict was a source of socialization. 657 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: So it's not like it's not like everyone just got along. Like, 658 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: these are people with serious mental illnesses and they're in 659 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: the middle of a war and they're starving, right, They 660 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: are in conflict with each other, and learning how to 661 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: de escalate and work through their conflict is part of 662 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: their therapy and part of survival definitely. 663 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 2: I mean, that's like one of the main reasons why 664 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 2: like therapy can help is because you'll learn how to 665 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 2: navigate like issues with your therapist totally and to see 666 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 2: like you'll maybe like have an argument about something or 667 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 2: disagree about something, but then you learn how to like 668 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 2: repair it and share your thoughts and work through it, 669 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 2: and that like those skills you then can take out 670 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 2: of the therapy room. 671 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: I remember once I was in this conflict mediation workshop 672 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: at an earth First camp, you know, so, like people 673 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: are tree sitting and stuff. We're getting together and we're 674 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: talking about, like you know, someone's presenting here's ideas about 675 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: conflict resolution and all of this stuff, and we're talking 676 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: to these skills and one a friend of mine worked 677 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: at a kindergarten basically and was like, oh, yeah, when 678 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: kids have conflict, they get really excited and they run 679 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: up to us and they're like, teacher, teacher, we're in 680 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: a conflict. I want to play with this toy, and 681 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: so does he, you know, and then they get really 682 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: excited to work through it together. And it was funny 683 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: because in that circle everyone was like, ah, yes, children 684 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: are very wise they are naturally very wise and they 685 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: know these things. And then my friend is like, not 686 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: really doesn't really talk a lot in things. It was 687 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: already a huge thing for them to bring up a 688 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: story at all. Afterwards, they came up to me and 689 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: they're like, no, we taught those kids that. Like it's 690 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: not that they're just magic creatures, you know, it's that 691 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: we can we can learn better ways of doing things. 692 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: But you know what is also a better way of No, 693 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: I got nothing. I got nothing. There's just a bunch 694 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: of ads that's gonna happen. Now, that's what's going to happen, 695 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: and we're back. Okay. So medical staff regularly performed manual labor, 696 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: including farming. They're also like trying to grow as much 697 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: food as possible, like everyone is right, And patients regularly 698 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 1: talk classes about the stuff they know. And then they 699 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: did the thing that is how I learned about them 700 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: in the first place, the thing I can find the 701 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: least information about. They helped the Partisans, the French resistance 702 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 1: of communists and anarchists and just not Nazis who would 703 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: one day liberate France, which means that you've got this 704 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: asylum a castle in the mountains where the patients are 705 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: making their own decisions alongside their caretakers anarchist communists and nuns. 706 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: And the decision that they make is that they're going 707 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: to hide and arm partisan gorillas on the third floor 708 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: of their castle. And I couldn't make that shit up. 709 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: It is too perfect to my interests. 710 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 2: I loved so much that this is all happening in 711 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 2: a castle. 712 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: I know, like, I want to write this, like, but 713 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: it already happened, you know, well, you. 714 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 2: Could fictionalize it and make it into quite an epic story. 715 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: It's true. I one of my like retire from everything 716 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: else goals is to just start writing like queer historical romance. 717 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 2: Oh why do you have to wait to retire to 718 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 2: do that? 719 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: Did podcasting take so much of my energy? And I 720 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: also have several books that I eventually I'll do it. 721 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: I just various excuses. Every author has various excuses. I'm 722 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: working on other books right now, and I dream of 723 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: one day being like, I'm gonna write about dark ages, 724 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: Ireland and gay people or something, you know, you know what? 725 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 2: I think one day you will. 726 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: I hope so too, assuming I make it through the 727 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: next several years of but you know what, it just 728 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: as a spoiler. Francesca's going to make it through the 729 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: next several years. He's going to make it through the occupation, 730 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: So there's hope for me. Literally, he fought in two 731 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: fucking wars against fascism, and one of them he lost. 732 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: In one of them he won, and that's not terrible. 733 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 2: You know, these are pretty I mean pretty good stats. 734 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the bigger one is the one he won, 735 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: the one when we're playing for more chips. All of 736 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: the world beside Spain, which stayed fascist until the fucking 737 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: seventies eighties, whenever fucking Franco died. I sometimes know that 738 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: date and I don't currently. So the resistance is air 739 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: dropping them arms to distribute to gorillas. They care for 740 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: wounded soldiers. I think it's like the nuns are carrying 741 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,959 Speaker 1: for wounded soldiers who show up. They distribute underground newspapers. 742 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: They forged documents to get soldiers and Jews into the 743 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: place as patients. So they were just taking in refugees 744 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, yeah, you're like crazy. 745 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 2: That's so smart. 746 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. They even had a sick name for themselves, although 747 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: I won't pronounce it right. Unfortunately, they called themselves the 748 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: Society of Gevodon, based on a local legend which I 749 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: will now relate because it's really cool. This part is real, 750 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: and in the seventeen sixties, over the course of three years, 751 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 1: the Beast of Gevoudan killed at least one hundred people 752 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: in rural France. Like that actually happened. 753 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 2: What kind of beast? 754 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: That's the question. Oh, that's the history, doesn't know part. 755 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: It would rip out people's throats. Sometimes it would rip 756 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: off entire heads of people, which is not a thing 757 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: that most animals do. And it would do this in 758 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: the French countryside, in the area where the hospital was, 759 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: which was historically called Gueveoudon, it's called lose Air. I 760 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: think I forgot because it's not written in front of me. 761 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: The beast gets described by eyewitnesses as like a wolf, 762 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: but not a wolf, And there's a couple of reasons. 763 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: I like that one. There's this like cryptid in Appalachia 764 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: that is mostly an Internet thing, but I think it's 765 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: kind of based on a real thing, even though it's not. Whatever. 766 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 1: There's a thing called a not a deer, which is 767 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: like sometimes you see a deer and you're like that 768 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,439 Speaker 1: deer is real weird and you're like, what the fuck 769 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: is going on? And then you're like, I don't think 770 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: that's a deer, you know, And it's the kind of 771 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: thing you see like late at night when you're like 772 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:35,959 Speaker 1: walking around and there's a deer and you're like, wait, 773 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: that's not a deer, And I really like the not 774 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: a deer. So the fact that there's a not a. 775 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 2: Wolf, yeah, I like would love that there's just some 776 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 2: animals out and about that we just like have not seen. 777 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: I know. Although the thing that makes me sadder than 778 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,919 Speaker 1: anything is thinking about species going extinct that we never saw, 779 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: like under the ocean or whatever. How we have killed 780 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: fish that we've never seen before. 781 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: Well, who knows what's going on in the ocean. To 782 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 2: be honest, that's true. 783 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 1: They could be preparing to destroy us all. And you 784 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: know what, that's okay. 785 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 2: Like truly like wild stuff could be going on in 786 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 2: its deep ocean. 787 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: It's true, okay to quote History dot com about the 788 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: beast of Geradon or Gerdon quote. The beast was consistently 789 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: described by eyewitnesses as something other than a typical wolf. 790 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: It was as large as a calf for sometimes a horse. 791 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: Its coat was a reddish gray with a long, strong, 792 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: panther like tail. The head and legs were short haired 793 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: and the color of a deer. It had a black 794 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: stripe on its back and talons on its feet, and 795 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: so hunters combed the woods looking for this. The king 796 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: put out a fucking bounty on it. It was wounded 797 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: several times by a musket and then a bayonet, but 798 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 1: it escaped each time and continued to kill people. 799 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 2: Do you think there's a chance it's a guy in 800 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 2: a suit. 801 00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: There is a small chance that it's a guy in 802 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: a suit. That is like one of the things that 803 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: people consider as a possibility. But most serial killers aren't 804 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,240 Speaker 1: killing like a hundred people. 805 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 2: You know, Well, that's not true. We have no idea. 806 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: That's a good point. No, you're right. 807 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 2: I think a lot of serial killers their numbers are 808 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 2: way higher than what we think they are, especially if 809 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,359 Speaker 2: they're targeting like sex workers, where people don't no one 810 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 2: is paying enough attention. 811 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: That's true, and especially like back in the day when 812 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: like imagine how much easier crime was before, like fucking 813 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: finger printing and shit, you know, and. 814 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 2: Honestly, crime is still pretty easy. Like most people don't 815 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 2: most people get away with murder if you look at 816 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 2: like the murder solvery. Yeah, but we need more police. 817 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, that'll solve it, even though they've been 818 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: proven in court to not have an obligation to help people. 819 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: So someone killed a huge wolf and everyone was like, 820 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: we did it, But then the attacks kept coming, so 821 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: it was clearly not that. A few years later folks 822 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: killed like a wolf, but not thing that had human 823 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: remains inside of it. It was probably a wolf, right, 824 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: or a bunch of wolves. It was almost certainly not 825 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: rabid because no humans during all this was we're getting rabies, right, 826 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: And a lot of people did survive the attacks. 827 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,279 Speaker 2: Oh and they all said the same description. 828 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: More or less. This is like one of the things 829 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: that there's like a million fucking stories about, right, But like, overall, 830 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: the most likely thing is that it was a wolf 831 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,240 Speaker 1: and just people were like, nah, I had like fucking 832 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: fangs or whatever, you know. Like, it's also possible that 833 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: it was a hyena or a lion, that especially a 834 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: not yet adult male lion that which would then have 835 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: a stripe down its back of hair instead of a 836 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,280 Speaker 1: mane that had escaped from some menageree. 837 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 2: Right, oh, interesting. 838 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: Or people have said it might have been a guy 839 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: in a suit and the whole like beheaded thing kind 840 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: of ties into that a little bit, right, Or it 841 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: could have been a were wolf. I don't know, whatever, 842 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: Who am I to say it wasn't. 843 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 2: My money is on wolf, but my money is on 844 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 2: guy in a suit. Yeah, maybe two guys in a suit, 845 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 2: based on how big it. 846 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: Was, like like one of those horse costumes. 847 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. 848 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,319 Speaker 1: That's okay. I'm going with that one. I'm going with 849 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: that one. So when they started working with partisans in 850 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: the same mountains, they called themselves the Society of Givedon 851 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: as a reference to the Beast of Givedon, because the 852 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: gorillas are now functioning as that, right, they're like hiding 853 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: and fucking taken out Nazis, And it's a society of 854 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: communists and nuns working together, and I love it and 855 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: about that fact, so Sciatus wrote, quote, I have two specialties, 856 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: turning communists into communists and nuns into nuns, because most 857 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: Catholics are not actually calf like. I have nothing against 858 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,360 Speaker 1: being Catholic or communist. I am against those claiming to 859 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: be communists when they are radical socialists or public servants, 860 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: and against the nuns who believe they are nuns when 861 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 1: they are only officials of the church. Part of my 862 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: job has consisted of converting people into what they really are, 863 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 1: beyond their appearance, beyond what they believe they are and 864 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:20,760 Speaker 1: their ideal self. 865 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 2: I love the idea of converting someone into who they 866 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 2: really are. Yeah, that's such a succinct and like powerful 867 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 2: way to think about transformation. 868 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 1: I know. And and in the context of being like, 869 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,840 Speaker 1: oh you call yourself a communists, and why you standing 870 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: for Stalin what the fuck you know? Like like, oh 871 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: you call yourself a nun, Well, are you actually just 872 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: taking care of poor people or are you just like 873 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: doing whatever the church says? You know? I fucking love it. Yeah, 874 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,840 Speaker 1: like challenge people to be the best selves, which mostly 875 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't think about doing that to other people. I 876 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: try and think about that, like we should all just 877 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:56,919 Speaker 1: try and do that with ourselves and encourage each other 878 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,440 Speaker 1: to do it, you know, be our best selves. 879 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 2: But why do you think he preferred communism to socialism? 880 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so I actually think in this sense when he 881 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: says I'm turning communist into communists, I think that he's 882 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,879 Speaker 1: not identifying as a communist here in the same way 883 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 1: that he's not catholic. I actually think this is actually 884 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: evidence in my he's in an archosyndicalist theory. But in 885 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: this particular context, everyone's going to use these words differently 886 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: at different times, right. But imagine a three sided leftist triangle, 887 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,280 Speaker 1: and you have socialism and communism and anarchism. Now, theoretically, 888 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: socialism is a broader umbrella about who owns the means 889 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: of production and under that that has a lot of 890 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,880 Speaker 1: different things that that could be. But generally speaking, when 891 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: people are using it around this time in the twentieth century, 892 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: they're sort of saying democratic socialism. They're saying something that 893 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: doesn't really exist in the US, but is a very 894 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: common European thing of being kind of left of center, 895 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,279 Speaker 1: being like Bernieish right. And that's not a bad thing 896 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: to be, but it is a distinct thing from the 897 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,840 Speaker 1: far left, which wouldn't be the socialist but would instead 898 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: be the communists and the anarchists. To make things even 899 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: more confusing, communism theoretically means a stateless society, it actually 900 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: means anarchism. But the people who call themselves communists, especially 901 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of the twentieth century are referring to 902 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: the Communist Party and therefore Soviet control and capital see 903 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: communism overall. And so if someone is a radical leftist 904 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: and a communist at this point, instead of calling themselves 905 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: a socialist, it means that they are like a revolutionary. 906 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 1: They want to seize the means of production. Why are 907 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,720 Speaker 1: as a socialist probably wants to vote in socialists into power. 908 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: And then a syndicalist, an anarcho syndicalist, wants trade unions 909 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: to build power and then slowly make the state obsolete. 910 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: That's my rough overview. Yeah, and what. 911 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 2: Do you think, So you think he identified as that 912 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 2: last one that you said that thing I could never pronounce. 913 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,880 Speaker 1: I can't tell because his parents were that, okay, and 914 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: that was a huge part of the Spanish movement. But 915 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: he was also a Marxist, and Marxism was slightly different. 916 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 1: He was probably what we would call now a like 917 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 1: small SA communist. He was probably didn't believe in the 918 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,719 Speaker 1: state or like USSR and Stalin and shit. I've read 919 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 1: some things that called him in an arcosyndicalist, and I've 920 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,880 Speaker 1: read some things that called him an anti Stalin communist, 921 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,560 Speaker 1: But in the end, those are not wildly disparate positions. 922 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,280 Speaker 1: They want a revolutionarily different society in which the means 923 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: of production are entirely owned by the workers and also 924 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 1: the people who make use of the products of them 925 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:49,560 Speaker 1: or whatever. 926 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,239 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, thank you. 927 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that was a useful question. It's the kind 928 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,000 Speaker 1: of thing It took me like twenty years of being 929 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 1: political before I could actually articulate that, because it's so messy, 930 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: because it's confusing. Yeah, twenty years later or earlier, people 931 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:07,399 Speaker 1: would have said a completely different thing. 932 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 2: And also there's such charge terms, so people bring a 933 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,839 Speaker 2: lot of bias to them without necessarily understanding what they mean. 934 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, to all of them. Yeah, it's and it's hard 935 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 1: because like, in some ways I think that knowing his 936 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 1: position is useful because it's useful to see like lineages 937 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: and like where things come from and where they're going. 938 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,560 Speaker 1: But it's so murky, and so I think early at 939 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,040 Speaker 1: the end of the day being like, well, he was 940 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 1: like a radical, absolutely, but he also was just like 941 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,319 Speaker 1: trying to be good to everyone all the time. Yeah, 942 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 1: you know, and like the fact that he also doesn't 943 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: have a problem with the Catholics a lot of Communists, 944 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 1: and anarch has had problems with the Catholics and still 945 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,440 Speaker 1: do or any Christians or religion. A lot of them 946 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,799 Speaker 1: are like militantly atheists, especially from Spain. So like he's 947 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,760 Speaker 1: clearly not obsessed with like I must fit this label, 948 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:55,319 Speaker 1: you know. 949 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's probably one of the reasons that he 950 00:51:58,719 --> 00:51:59,959 Speaker 2: was such a force for good. 951 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,960 Speaker 1: I think so too. I always like to imagine that 952 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,480 Speaker 1: anarchism wants to not can hold itself constrained, because it's 953 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 1: theoretically the one that's about free thinking, but it absolutely 954 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:17,359 Speaker 1: sometimes just ends up just another ideology or whatever. So 955 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: by hanging out with all these folks, all these people 956 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: hanging out together, the nuns themselves and their order become 957 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,759 Speaker 1: less and less hierarchical as time goes on. They write 958 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: essays in this that I was saying. I read an 959 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: essay that was in the newspaper that they circulated only 960 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,439 Speaker 1: for themselves. They wrote an essay about how they hated 961 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 1: being called guards and they were not guards, and they 962 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,080 Speaker 1: did not were not armed masculine forces of enforcement, you know, 963 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,759 Speaker 1: they were insulted to be called guards. And the Mother 964 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,719 Speaker 1: Superior started off as one of Francescu's fiercest critics and 965 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,880 Speaker 1: then wound up one of his strongest allies. Makes me 966 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,440 Speaker 1: really happy. 967 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 2: I mean, being able to change your mind is I 968 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,000 Speaker 2: think a sign of great intelligence. 969 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:06,040 Speaker 1: I agree. Part of their daily struggle, though, during the 970 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,480 Speaker 1: occupation Vichy France, is just to survive. There's no money 971 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 1: in the Nazi budget for feeding mental patients. Because they 972 00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 1: know how to self organize. They refuse to be isolated 973 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,920 Speaker 1: in their castle, and so they survived. They taught classes 974 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,400 Speaker 1: on mushroom foraging and would go out and forage all 975 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:27,520 Speaker 1: the time. The nuns in particular actually had really extensive 976 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,880 Speaker 1: knowledge of herbalism thanks to the work of the previous 977 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:35,440 Speaker 1: director's wife, Germaine Beauvais, who taught them all medicinal herbs 978 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,279 Speaker 1: and not just She's not just like an herb lady, 979 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 1: although that's a perfectly fine thing to be. Her nineteen 980 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 1: forty one medical thesis because she also is anyway whatever. 981 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: Her thesis was called on the organization of an insulin 982 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 1: therapy service and narcotherapy in a rural hospital. 983 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:53,880 Speaker 2: Wow. 984 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 1: So like, yeah, they do believe in medicine, you know. 985 00:53:57,760 --> 00:53:59,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's hard science there. 986 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they have one of the better insulin administration 987 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: regimes available in France as best as I can tell, 988 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,160 Speaker 1: because she's stuck around and kept working there during the occupation. 989 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: People there participated in the local economy of the town. 990 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,399 Speaker 1: The patients and the doctors and even the accountants would 991 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 1: leave the asylum and go work in exchange for food 992 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: like butter and turnips were often some of the only 993 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: food they could get. And while there was no ration 994 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,719 Speaker 1: card for mental patients, there were. I promised to bring 995 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: tuberculosis into this story. There were ration cards for people 996 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 1: with tuberculosis because France was going to take care of 997 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,360 Speaker 1: people with TB, but not people with mental illness. 998 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 2: Why because you can survive TB and then become part 999 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:44,760 Speaker 2: of the workforce. Again. 1000 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it's like not a character flaw in a 1001 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: eugenicist way or something like. Okay, And so in the 1002 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 1: first positive story about TV, I think I've done this 1003 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,480 Speaker 1: whole time. They started diagnosing everyone with TV in order 1004 00:54:58,520 --> 00:54:59,920 Speaker 1: to get ration cards to share all the. 1005 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 2: And you get TV. 1006 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. The place became a sort of artist colony 1007 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,200 Speaker 1: during the war. It just keeps getting cooler. 1008 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:14,240 Speaker 2: This is amazing. 1009 00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,040 Speaker 1: Various anti fascists of all stripes would take refuge there, 1010 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,600 Speaker 1: Picasso visited the place. It's as important in the history 1011 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: of outsider art as it is in psychotherapy. Patients there 1012 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,279 Speaker 1: wrote a ton of poetry, and they painted, and they 1013 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,719 Speaker 1: made sculptures, and they dresses and all of this stuff, right, 1014 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,480 Speaker 1: And sometimes they would open up the courtyard so that villagers, 1015 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 1: as they would walk through, could buy sculptures and art 1016 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 1: for like cigarettes or a few cents, and artists and 1017 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,759 Speaker 1: people would come like kind of like study there and 1018 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: like learn from the outsider artists or whatever. But there's 1019 00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,319 Speaker 1: actually some tension around this. Some people are into what's 1020 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,400 Speaker 1: called art brew or brutes or something. It's the French 1021 00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:00,239 Speaker 1: version of outsider art and it means raw art, right, okay, 1022 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 1: And this is this new art movement, right, and there 1023 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,680 Speaker 1: are people who into that, who are into that, who 1024 00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,120 Speaker 1: were into the art that the patients made, but they're 1025 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,359 Speaker 1: into it kind of exploitatively some of them. It's like 1026 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,560 Speaker 1: the patients aren't seen seriously as artists, but instead as outsiders, 1027 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,520 Speaker 1: like how one might view a child, although perhaps we 1028 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,359 Speaker 1: shouldn't view children's art this way either. Just Ka has 1029 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 1: fought hard against this way of seeing the art that 1030 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,360 Speaker 1: was made by people living at the asylum. He was like, 1031 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,799 Speaker 1: don't fucking exploit people. They are like like art is 1032 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,880 Speaker 1: good and they are artists. They're not Wow, even the 1033 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,839 Speaker 1: crazy person made a crazy sculpture or whatever the fuck 1034 00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,520 Speaker 1: you know, and the art's really cool. There's like, literally, 1035 00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 1: if you read about this place, you're going to find again, 1036 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,719 Speaker 1: not enough about hiding partisans Margaret's interest, but instead lots 1037 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,319 Speaker 1: about an art movement and a psychotherapy movement, which are 1038 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: both actually perfectly valid. And I would rather do art 1039 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 1: than get shot at. So I guess what am I 1040 00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:59,919 Speaker 1: talking about. I'm focusing on Toscatas because I think he's 1041 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: and because that's where most of the information is is 1042 00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,799 Speaker 1: about him. But the whole point, and I think he 1043 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,759 Speaker 1: would agree, is that it's not about him and what 1044 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 1: he did, but what the institution as a living entity did. 1045 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,000 Speaker 1: To quote Johanna Masso in pair a Practice magazine quote, 1046 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,200 Speaker 1: if Sano Bond's legacy still appears to us as political, 1047 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,760 Speaker 1: it is because it carries another transmission besides the big 1048 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,880 Speaker 1: name guys, that the practices of women psychiatrists and nurses 1049 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: who have mostly disappeared from history of the politics of care. 1050 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 1: So like, there's so many unnamed women in this story, 1051 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,880 Speaker 1: and I've tried to name the women where I can, right, 1052 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,959 Speaker 1: but there's so many more. After the war, they kept going. 1053 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,880 Speaker 1: The place is still there today. It's named after Francois Toscadas, 1054 00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,919 Speaker 1: and he himself, after the war, wrote a nineteen forty 1055 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:56,520 Speaker 1: eight doctoral thesis called the Psychopathology of Lived Experience, which 1056 00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,440 Speaker 1: is such a like sick name to be like, Yamaya, 1057 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,880 Speaker 1: what do I bring to this fucking thesis? Well, I 1058 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:07,000 Speaker 1: ran psychotherapy for an entire fucking country's army, and then 1059 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 1: like in a concentration camp, and then during a war 1060 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:18,400 Speaker 1: in another country. He lived under three occupations, Stalinist, Francoist, 1061 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,680 Speaker 1: and German. He referred to the idea of getting mentally 1062 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:26,640 Speaker 1: healthy as deoccupying your mind, and so this is all 1063 00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,320 Speaker 1: political to him always. In the nineteen fifties he and 1064 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 1: Helene shot a number of films at the hospital, and 1065 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,240 Speaker 1: this is where a lot of the like actual images 1066 00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,480 Speaker 1: of like we know that women were involved because there's 1067 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:41,560 Speaker 1: some fucking video of them, you know. In nineteen fifty three, 1068 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,480 Speaker 1: some folks opened up a second asylum in France, operated 1069 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 1: in under the same lines. This to me is mostly 1070 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,640 Speaker 1: famous because a philosopher named Felix Guatari worked there for 1071 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,120 Speaker 1: a long time, mostly known as Guatari of deluzing Gwatari fame, 1072 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,919 Speaker 1: and when I say fame, I mean to people who 1073 00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,600 Speaker 1: like esoteric leftist philosophy. I named banned nomadic war machine 1074 00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,640 Speaker 1: after a concept that they have about the nature of 1075 00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,440 Speaker 1: states and conflict, because I'm a normal person can be 1076 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,760 Speaker 1: trusted to do normal things. Maybe the most famous person 1077 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,280 Speaker 1: influenced by their methods is a guy named Franz Fanon. 1078 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,680 Speaker 1: He is a future friend of the POD. I hope 1079 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,680 Speaker 1: he is one of the most important, if not the 1080 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 1: kind of cornerstone decolonial philosophers. His book The Wretched of 1081 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: the Earth is like one of the most important books 1082 00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,560 Speaker 1: and like just literally like, let's study the philosophy of 1083 00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:33,720 Speaker 1: how people get fucking free from colonization. He was now Jerian. 1084 00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:40,120 Speaker 1: He took the institutional psychotherapy framework about deoccupation and extended 1085 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:44,320 Speaker 1: it to decolonization, and he did his medical residency in 1086 00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,040 Speaker 1: the early nineteen fifties as Saint Alban. He went back 1087 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,960 Speaker 1: to Algeria and he improved upon the work of Sant Alban. 1088 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:52,560 Speaker 1: In case I don't get to do a whole thing 1089 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,400 Speaker 1: about him soon. I'm just going to cover it real quick. 1090 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,520 Speaker 1: He set up a day clinic so that patients could 1091 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,000 Speaker 1: keep living with their families, and, like Toskietas recommended, he 1092 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,880 Speaker 1: wanted to treat people close to where their traumas had happened. 1093 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:11,080 Speaker 1: To quote author Gregory Evan Ducas he quote, organized trips 1094 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,120 Speaker 1: where nurses could accompany patients and observe how they behaved 1095 01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,400 Speaker 1: in actual social situations. He encouraged nurses to socialize and 1096 01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,920 Speaker 1: dine with the patients, something prohibited beforehand. His most radical 1097 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:27,800 Speaker 1: innovation was a suggestion that social movements could facilitate collective transference. 1098 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,840 Speaker 1: And I don't entirely know what transference means in this 1099 01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,120 Speaker 1: case because it's a weird philosophy thing, but I think 1100 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:34,400 Speaker 1: means getting better. 1101 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,960 Speaker 2: Well transference in psychology. 1102 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, no, tell me. 1103 01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:44,720 Speaker 2: Transference in psychology means like associating, Like if you were 1104 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,360 Speaker 2: my therapist, I would like transfer my feelings about my 1105 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,160 Speaker 2: mother onto you. So it's like transferring your feelings about 1106 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,480 Speaker 2: something onto something else. But I don't understand exactly what 1107 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 2: it would mean in that context. 1108 01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,480 Speaker 1: So in this context, it's like the the social movement 1109 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,040 Speaker 1: allows not just an individual, but a collective of people 1110 01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,320 Speaker 1: to do that same transference. The social movement is therefore 1111 01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,440 Speaker 1: the therapy for the oppressed people. 1112 01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:15,200 Speaker 2: But transference isn't necessarily like healing, right, It's more just 1113 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,600 Speaker 2: like something that occurs during therapy. 1114 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 1: But is it part of getting better? Is like I 1115 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,760 Speaker 1: don't know. Okay, maybe I'm stretching here. I'm still hold 1116 01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:26,960 Speaker 1: by my read of it, but I don't know. 1117 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 2: It's more like something that like the therapist would need 1118 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 2: to be aware of, right, because like you would be 1119 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,800 Speaker 2: like I'm not your mother, right, right, or like aware 1120 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,880 Speaker 2: that like maybe the client is reacting to you because 1121 01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 2: of this transference that is happening, and so being aware 1122 01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:44,720 Speaker 2: of that and navigating that. 1123 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,640 Speaker 1: Okay, well then I think we don't totally know what 1124 01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:52,640 Speaker 1: that part means. And if you are listening and you're 1125 01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,400 Speaker 1: a big Phenonen head, you probably do know what it means. 1126 01:01:55,640 --> 01:02:00,880 Speaker 1: But let us know. Yeah, and so yeah, the asylum 1127 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,880 Speaker 1: in France kept going, and also kept going has been 1128 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the leftist stuff that he participates in, 1129 01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,960 Speaker 1: inn archosyndicalism in arc of communism, not being a Stalinist 1130 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,800 Speaker 1: but still caring about society, and so has people fighting 1131 01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:20,160 Speaker 1: for refugees, and the mentally ill and the neurodivergent. And 1132 01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,400 Speaker 1: one final note, I didn't nowhere else to stick it in, 1133 01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,800 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna have it because it's a quote I like. Well, Okay, 1134 01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:27,920 Speaker 1: so he stays in France the rest of his life, tosquiatus. 1135 01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,320 Speaker 1: So he left the asylum in nineteen sixty two. He 1136 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,320 Speaker 1: died in nineteen ninety four, and he did this awesome 1137 01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:35,800 Speaker 1: thing where he figured out how to defend his bad French. 1138 01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:39,920 Speaker 1: He wrote in the late nineteen eighties quote, I always 1139 01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:43,640 Speaker 1: had a theory a psychiatrist, to be a good psychiatrist 1140 01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,120 Speaker 1: must be a foreigner, or appear to be a foreigner. 1141 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,400 Speaker 1: So it's not coquetry on my part to speak French 1142 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,520 Speaker 1: so badly. The patient or even a normal guy must 1143 01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,920 Speaker 1: make an effort to understand me. They are obliged to 1144 01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:02,800 Speaker 1: translate and to take an active position toward me. And 1145 01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:07,640 Speaker 1: I like that because, like, I'm reading about him through translation, 1146 01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,560 Speaker 1: and I'm running it through my own experiences and my 1147 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,160 Speaker 1: own background and my own context of reading about the 1148 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,720 Speaker 1: social movements that he's part of. And I like that. 1149 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,680 Speaker 1: I have to and you listeners are doing the same thing. 1150 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,760 Speaker 1: With different set of assumptions about all of these things. 1151 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,560 Speaker 1: And I like that he likes that. I like that 1152 01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,640 Speaker 1: he knows that. It's like we are now an active 1153 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,520 Speaker 1: part of his story because we're trying to fucking figure. 1154 01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,640 Speaker 2: It out, and it makes you pay more attention. 1155 01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, I like I spent way too much 1156 01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:40,400 Speaker 1: time trying to figure out exactly how mean identified. Although 1157 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:47,000 Speaker 1: that's my own hang up, uh, but I like, usually 1158 01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,120 Speaker 1: I do this thing and then I'm like, yeah, but 1159 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,120 Speaker 1: I need did this thing. He might have done some 1160 01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:54,000 Speaker 1: bad things, but like, man, I don't know about him 1161 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,720 Speaker 1: and that love story of where he he fucking loved 1162 01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:59,920 Speaker 1: his family, which is a low bar, but a bar 1163 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,480 Speaker 1: A lot of fucking people who claim to be good 1164 01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:07,720 Speaker 1: people don't fucking meet and like getting forged passes to 1165 01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,520 Speaker 1: go meet his fucking daughter in the attic where she's hiding, 1166 01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,840 Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, I'm just like warm and 1167 01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:15,400 Speaker 1: fuzzy on that whole fucking place. 1168 01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,520 Speaker 2: I think it's okay to just sink into that, like 1169 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,320 Speaker 2: it's yeah, like you know, some people really live by 1170 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,960 Speaker 2: their values, and I think, like you said earlier, he did. 1171 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's another thing I didn't even like because 1172 01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:31,960 Speaker 1: I again, I was reading a lot of stuff that 1173 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,880 Speaker 1: was very anecdotal and a very very translated. Uh. And 1174 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,000 Speaker 1: one of those there's one story about him where near 1175 01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:43,560 Speaker 1: the end of his life, someone's dying and they're like, oh, 1176 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,640 Speaker 1: go get the Spaniard, which is what they would call 1177 01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,240 Speaker 1: him in the town. Go get the Spaniard. I think, 1178 01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,600 Speaker 1: I think they need someone to come and like therapies 1179 01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:52,560 Speaker 1: the dying because he's maybe not religious, he doesn't need 1180 01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,360 Speaker 1: a priest or something, right, go get the Spaniard because 1181 01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,560 Speaker 1: he won't charge you. So he was just like, yeah, 1182 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,480 Speaker 1: I take care of people. That's what we've fucking do. 1183 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,680 Speaker 1: And like, I mean, obviously everyone needs a job, and shit, 1184 01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:05,760 Speaker 1: it's not wrong to get paid for something, but like, 1185 01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,080 Speaker 1: poor person's dying, do you know how to help the dine? 1186 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 1: You fucking go do it? 1187 01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:15,000 Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, And that's your reputation, right, A reputation is 1188 01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:17,400 Speaker 2: that's who people go to in those moments. 1189 01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a story. I think a listener on 1190 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,440 Speaker 1: this show told me, but I can't remember. There's a 1191 01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:28,160 Speaker 1: story about this, like Quaker in Pennsylvania or something, I 1192 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,600 Speaker 1: don't know, and someone comes up and is like, hey, 1193 01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:33,680 Speaker 1: are you a Christian and he's like, I don't know, 1194 01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:34,800 Speaker 1: go ask my neighbor. 1195 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:37,200 Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. 1196 01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,840 Speaker 1: And like, yeah, whatever your best self is. Can people 1197 01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,320 Speaker 1: know that you are trying to do that? You know, 1198 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:46,760 Speaker 1: and we'll all fail. 1199 01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:51,600 Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I think that's the biggest disconnect 1200 01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:53,680 Speaker 2: that's happening in our country right now is how many 1201 01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,920 Speaker 2: people think they're good Christians then are voting to like 1202 01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,960 Speaker 2: take away rights and punish people like all this horrible stuff. 1203 01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,960 Speaker 2: And I do wonder, like how do they just not 1204 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:05,720 Speaker 2: think about it? 1205 01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:08,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's like it's this is one of those 1206 01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,880 Speaker 1: words that's just like like any of the ideological words 1207 01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:14,160 Speaker 1: that I was describing. There's like two thousand years of 1208 01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:18,520 Speaker 1: different shit getting called Christian, you know, and like the 1209 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,520 Speaker 1: core text isn't internally consistent. I'll phrase it that way, 1210 01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,360 Speaker 1: and like, yeah, you got Quakers who are like one 1211 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,240 Speaker 1: of the main backbones of the abolitionist movement. You've got 1212 01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:33,080 Speaker 1: like it's just all over the place. You have people 1213 01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,360 Speaker 1: doing horrible things in the name of ideology or religion 1214 01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,960 Speaker 1: and amazing things in the name of ideology and religion, 1215 01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:43,240 Speaker 1: and like often under the same names. But like, I 1216 01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:47,640 Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, the Catholic national the Christian nationalism things, right, 1217 01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:50,840 Speaker 1: Catholic nationalism is Franco Spain Christian nationalism, which is more 1218 01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:54,080 Speaker 1: Protestant that we're dealing with now, I don't it's a 1219 01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:54,840 Speaker 1: fucking nightmare. 1220 01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,720 Speaker 2: I've just been shocked, you know, as a Jewish person, 1221 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:04,600 Speaker 2: how people are to me. It is so fundamentally Unjewish 1222 01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:07,920 Speaker 2: to wish to wipe out the population of people. 1223 01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, like, yeah. 1224 01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:13,880 Speaker 2: That's wild to me, and I'm having a really hard 1225 01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:14,560 Speaker 2: time with it. 1226 01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:18,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. I don't fucking envy you dealing with that 1227 01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,120 Speaker 1: and like getting your fucking name invoked as this like 1228 01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:29,280 Speaker 1: hapless victim that needs Christian nationalists to fucking wipe people out. 1229 01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:33,640 Speaker 2: Or like anti Semitism being used as like this magical 1230 01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 2: word to allow for any kind of behavior. Yeah, in retaliation, right, 1231 01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:40,000 Speaker 2: it's wild. 1232 01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:48,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, well on that note, but you know, we need more. 1233 01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,120 Speaker 2: But there are good people even in the worst of times. 1234 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:55,360 Speaker 2: And so who knows in like seventy years who people 1235 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,200 Speaker 2: will be talking about in this moment of time. 1236 01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:02,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, good point. It's also always important to 1237 01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,040 Speaker 1: remember that like the Great Man theory of history is nonsense, 1238 01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,520 Speaker 1: and it's people who are just people just doing things 1239 01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:12,520 Speaker 1: and being like, I think we can get something done, 1240 01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:15,439 Speaker 1: and we are making history right now, Like I cover 1241 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, social movements that change the world that started 1242 01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,519 Speaker 1: with like five people being like what if we don't 1243 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:27,519 Speaker 1: let everyone we know diab ades or you know, whatever 1244 01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:31,960 Speaker 1: the thing is. Yeah, the things that we do have 1245 01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:35,320 Speaker 1: actual impact. We're part of history right now. But if 1246 01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,160 Speaker 1: you want to step outside of history and read fiction, 1247 01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,120 Speaker 1: which it's honestly sometimes a relaxing and necessary balm for 1248 01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:47,240 Speaker 1: your brain, uh many book wrecks. 1249 01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I can promise that. My new roalm com novel 1250 01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:55,800 Speaker 2: that came out yesterday when you're listening to this is 1251 01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,320 Speaker 2: called Save the Date, and I think it's some escapist 1252 01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:03,440 Speaker 2: fun while still being you know, grounded and realistic characters 1253 01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,960 Speaker 2: and getting to have a lot of like funny family 1254 01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,120 Speaker 2: dynamics along with the love stories. 1255 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:10,240 Speaker 1: I sort of love having you on as like a 1256 01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:12,400 Speaker 1: rom com writer, as I'm then like, let me tell 1257 01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:16,480 Speaker 1: you about this like horrible war and these like radical 1258 01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:20,240 Speaker 1: like you know, political folks. But I like how these 1259 01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:22,439 Speaker 1: to me don't seem like well they're disparate and that 1260 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,400 Speaker 1: they're not the same thing. But I really like thinking 1261 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:27,920 Speaker 1: about how it's just like, well, it's all just people 1262 01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:33,000 Speaker 1: and it's not Yeah, you know, like we all contain multitudes. 1263 01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:36,240 Speaker 2: And my other work is all psychology based. 1264 01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,719 Speaker 1: That's true. So yeah, yeah, you're. 1265 01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,479 Speaker 2: Catching me on a day where I'm leading with rom 1266 01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 2: com writer, but other times. 1267 01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is why I have you on for mental 1268 01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:45,640 Speaker 1: health ones. I was like, I've been have had the 1269 01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,439 Speaker 1: story in my back pocket for a minute and ever 1270 01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,400 Speaker 1: since doing Fountain House in Bethel House. And then I 1271 01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:52,840 Speaker 1: was like, oh, Allison's on the schedule, this is the 1272 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:53,400 Speaker 1: one we're doing. 1273 01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:56,639 Speaker 2: And then in save the Date, she's she's a couple therapists, 1274 01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,280 Speaker 2: So I get to insert a lot of my thoughts 1275 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:00,479 Speaker 2: on psychology as well. 1276 01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:06,640 Speaker 1: Hell yeah, well remember to save the date, which was yesterday, 1277 01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:13,880 Speaker 1: and pick up the book and uh what else? Get 1278 01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,280 Speaker 1: together with your friends and make plans. That's my pitch 1279 01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,439 Speaker 1: and plug is that think about contingencies and think about 1280 01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:23,200 Speaker 1: how you're going to help people, and think about how 1281 01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:25,439 Speaker 1: you're going to be your best self when bad things happen, 1282 01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,200 Speaker 1: because people are going to be reading about what you're 1283 01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,200 Speaker 1: doing right now seventy years from now. 1284 01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,639 Speaker 2: You can't control everything, but you can keep a hold 1285 01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:34,560 Speaker 2: of your humanity. 1286 01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, see y'all next week. 1287 01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:46,800 Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 1288 01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:49,960 Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, 1289 01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:53,360 Speaker 2: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out 1290 01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:56,840 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 1291 01:10:56,840 --> 01:10:58,720 Speaker 2: your podcasts.