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Speaker 1: It was a profound moment. It's the duality of Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, what in the world, Who is this cruel?

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Speaker 1: Who can pull this off? Whose friends pull it off?

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Speaker 1: How do you fabricate the details like that?

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about

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Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

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Speaker 2: change everything.

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Speaker 1: My real name is Deborah, but typically everyone calls me Dad.

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Speaker 2: Dep Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.

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Speaker 2: She recently retired from her role as the senior director

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Speaker 2: of her tribe's domestic violence program, and before that, she

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Speaker 2: spent her entire career as a nurse.

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Speaker 1: After being an rin well now it's been forty eight

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Speaker 1: and a half years.

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Speaker 2: Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she

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Speaker 2: developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.

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Speaker 1: When you manson bullshit detectors, I can spot them a

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Speaker 1: football field away or further.

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Speaker 2: Deb is Cherokee and proud of her Native American heritage.

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Speaker 1: My grandmother who lived until she was ninety nine years old.

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Speaker 1: She is actually our family's original in Rowly, which means

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Speaker 1: she is on the Dows role.

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Speaker 2: The DAWs role was a list compiled by the US

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Speaker 2: government in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: It named about one hundred thousand Native Americans who were

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Speaker 2: allotted land.

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Speaker 1: Which was pretty unusual to have an unreachedly in your

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Speaker 1: life for most of it.

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Speaker 2: Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a

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Speaker 2: source of inspiration.

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Speaker 1: I think I thought a lot of my propert will

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Speaker 1: and strength and courage from her. She was born before

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Speaker 1: statehood and she was still stacking her own wood when

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Speaker 1: she was in her early nineties. She was a survivor

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Speaker 1: of many, many situations in her life.

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Speaker 2: Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father

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Speaker 2: did too. As a child, his own father was murdered

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Speaker 2: in front of him.

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Speaker 1: Those life events are what gives the background and the

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Speaker 1: experience to what we would call intergenerational trauma or historical trauma.

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Speaker 2: She saw the impact of that on her family. There

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Speaker 2: was alcoholism and emotional and when she was young, Deb

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Speaker 2: struggled to process it.

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Speaker 1: When you're a very sensitive nature child, your little heart's

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Speaker 1: open and you're intuitive, you pick up that energy.

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Speaker 2: From a young age. She experienced violence and abuse herself.

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Speaker 1: The violence I experienced, I truly am my heart know

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Speaker 1: that it's as a result of those that could not heal.

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Speaker 2: Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become

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Speaker 2: a civil servant.

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Speaker 1: He taught me a lot about community service. He would

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Speaker 1: be in his vehicle driving through the rural areas seeing

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Speaker 1: what the natives needed, and ultimately he was a councilman

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Speaker 1: for their tribe, served many many years.

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Speaker 2: Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact,

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Speaker 2: on our sixteen birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.

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Speaker 1: They had a birthday party for me, and he asked

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Speaker 1: me to marry him, and I accepted. That was the

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Speaker 1: day I turned sixteen.

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Speaker 2: But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her

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Speaker 2: father insisted that she earn an advanced degree.

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Speaker 1: He was the one in the family who said you

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Speaker 1: must have an education, and so at age seventeen, I

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Speaker 1: did start college and I finished at nineteen with my

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Speaker 1: first RN degree. That was as a result of my

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Speaker 1: dad pushing me.

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Speaker 2: Before she even had a chance to know herself, she

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Speaker 2: was married and working as a full time nurse.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm running the hospital as a baby nurse.

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Speaker 1: I'd probably turn twenty maybe twenty one by then. It

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Speaker 1: was tough, but I spent a good part of my

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Speaker 1: energy on trying to achieve perfection.

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Speaker 2: And her husband shared a very similar upbringing.

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Speaker 1: He came from a violent background, very similar to mine,

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Speaker 1: and so we just went together like peanut, butter and jelly.

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Speaker 2: They had two sons together, but a few years into marriage,

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Speaker 2: her husband's behavior became a problem.

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Speaker 1: He struggled with drugs and drinking, and he had violent tendencies.

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Speaker 1: It was really hard.

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Speaker 2: She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the

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Speaker 2: cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment

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Speaker 2: for her and her two sons.

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Speaker 1: And so for many years I remained single and just

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Speaker 1: spent time with myself and the boys. And so for

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Speaker 1: the next few years after we divorced, I sought to understand.

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Speaker 1: I bought books, I joined book clubs, anything on self understanding.

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Speaker 2: She started going to therapy and joined support groups for

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Speaker 2: families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life

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Speaker 2: for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers,

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Speaker 2: she looked around and realized.

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Speaker 1: I did want to partner in live, you know, someone

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Speaker 1: to enjoy life. That I meant something too, that I'm

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Speaker 1: mad or to.

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Speaker 2: She was forty one and felt ready to explore a

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Speaker 2: new partnership, so she made an online dating profile. This

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Speaker 2: was nineteen ninety seven, back when online dating was a

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Speaker 2: novel concept.

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Speaker 1: Yeah this egg bumble, this a yeah, this is none

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Speaker 1: of that stuff.

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Speaker 2: One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton.

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Speaker 1: His profile was just romantic. It was something like I'm

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Speaker 1: looking for my gwinevere.

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Speaker 2: Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like

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Speaker 2: a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a

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Speaker 2: couple states away in Kentucky, but their conversation flowed easily

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Speaker 2: and Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They

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Speaker 2: both loved golf, and Jeff wanted to hear more about

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Speaker 2: Deb's Cherokee culture.

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Speaker 1: You know, the music, a spiritual journey. He loved the

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Speaker 1: Native American spiritual practices. And when I talked to him,

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Speaker 1: I was just smitten with him.

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Speaker 2: She looked forward to his phone calls and emails.

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Speaker 1: I saved all of that. I printed everything. I had

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Speaker 1: a huge three inch purple binder with all of our exchanges.

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Speaker 2: As they got closer, she got to know more about

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Speaker 2: his backstory.

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Speaker 1: He was born in Alaska. And moved to Canada.

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Speaker 2: He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States,

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Speaker 2: and he had a complicated relationship with his biological family.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know his real dad. His stepdad was very

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Speaker 1: violent and he would share stories like, you know, his

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Speaker 1: stepdad murdered the family poodle in front of his sister

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Speaker 1: and his mom and him, and I mean it was

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Speaker 1: horrible stories.

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Speaker 2: Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She

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Speaker 2: understood what it was like, so they bonded over their

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Speaker 2: difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd

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Speaker 2: fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as

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Speaker 2: a young man, and along the way he picked up

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Speaker 2: the accent.

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Speaker 1: So when he would talk to me on the phone,

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Speaker 1: he would have that you know dialect. He would say

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Speaker 1: hello Darlin and an do yeah, I can't do it.

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Speaker 1: But it was definitely New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: Jeff's ex wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans,

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Speaker 2: but after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky.

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Speaker 1: He was a project manager for a big construction company

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Speaker 1: that you know, worked on Toyota plants that worked on

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Speaker 1: the University of Kentucky that had done all this great work.

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Speaker 2: Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million

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Speaker 2: lives in one.

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Speaker 1: He just fascinated me. He was a pilot and played

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Speaker 1: football for Woody Hayes at Ohio State and was phenomenal.

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Speaker 2: Dip could really see herself with this guy.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna embark upon this journey together. We love music,

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Speaker 1: we love golf, We're both seekers. I just was so

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Speaker 1: excited about meeting this man.

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Speaker 2: After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet

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Speaker 2: each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he

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Speaker 2: arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with

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Speaker 2: a gift.

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Speaker 1: God had a traditional here. A medicine man gone to

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Speaker 1: him and asked him to be a feather. There was

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Speaker 1: a song by Robbie Robertson and the name of it

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Speaker 1: was Golden Feather and my love of Golden Feather, and

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Speaker 1: if you would look it up, it's so that I

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Speaker 1: never lose my way home. And I thought, what a

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Speaker 1: beautiful expression of love for this new man in my

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Speaker 1: life to give him a feather because he loves that

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Speaker 1: Native American song so much. So I met him at

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Speaker 1: the plane with that and I said, here's so you

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Speaker 1: can always find your way home.

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Speaker 2: And Jeff had come with the surprise of his own.

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Speaker 1: Soon as he got off the plane and he was

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Speaker 1: walking toward me, it seemed like his voice was shaking,

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Speaker 1: and he said, you will marry me, won't you. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna marry me, right, You are marrying me right.

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Speaker 2: That was Jeff's marriage proposal.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, well, of course, of course, yes.

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Speaker 2: The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to

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Speaker 2: get to know her world.

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Speaker 1: You know. I drove around, showed ing the rural area,

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Speaker 1: my history, some of the culture where I were. We

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Speaker 1: went out to my golf course. I introduced him to

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Speaker 1: a lot of my friends, met the family. It was

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Speaker 1: just a really good weekend. I just loved him, just

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Speaker 1: loved him.

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Speaker 2: They started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a planner and an organizer in every aspect

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Speaker 1: of my life. So shoot, the next thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting busy. I'm helping him find jobs. He's getting

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Speaker 1: his resumeating. Of course, we're still using facts is then,

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Speaker 1: and he would send things and I would write cover

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Speaker 1: letters for him to help him get relocated.

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Speaker 2: A few months later, Jeff moved in. They spent the

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Speaker 2: next year planning a small family wedding in Theosarks.

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Speaker 1: We married on April twenty third, two thousand.

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Speaker 2: It was the anniversary of the day they met in person.

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Speaker 2: Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son,

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Speaker 2: Little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was

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Speaker 2: a true merging of their lives.

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Speaker 1: I really thought it was meant to be.

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Speaker 2: They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf

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Speaker 2: trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing

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Speaker 2: for her entire life. Every year she and her friends

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Speaker 2: traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join.

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Speaker 2: He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but

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Speaker 2: he hadn't played in years, so.

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Speaker 1: He lost these golf clubs. Well, heck, you know, I

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Speaker 1: gotta go buying golf clubs, you know, because he's got

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Speaker 1: to have golf clubs if a month play. So then

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Speaker 1: he needed lessons because he just hadn't got to play

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Speaker 1: in a while. He said, needed to brush up.

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Speaker 2: But on their first golf trip with her.

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Speaker 1: Friends, once we got all scores in and everything, the

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Speaker 1: winner was him, and I was like, well, god, oh,

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Speaker 1: great job.

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Speaker 2: But Deb's friends were stand offish with Jeff about his win,

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Speaker 2: and one of her friends was quick to point out.

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Speaker 1: A real golfer is not going to leave their clubs behind.

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Speaker 1: It didn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't

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Speaker 2: know what happened, and neither did Jeff. But after that

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Speaker 2: they weren't invited on any more golf trips.

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Speaker 1: I felt like everybody was mistreating him.

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Speaker 2: A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to

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Speaker 2: find the right job in Oklahoma. One day when Deb

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Speaker 2: was helping him with an application, Well.

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Speaker 1: I sound an O resume, and on this particular resume

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Speaker 1: it says Vietnam veteran. I was like, my god.

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Speaker 2: He'd never told her he was a veteran. But Deb

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Speaker 2: had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting

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Speaker 2: her Advanced Nursing degree, she worked on a program at

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Speaker 2: the VA that specific studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, you never told me you were a veteran.

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Speaker 1: You never told me you were in the Vietnam War.

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Speaker 1: That is a significant event in life. Was flabbergasted. It

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Speaker 1: had never come up, and he said, well, I don't

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Speaker 1: like to talk about it. Deb I use it on

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Speaker 1: my resumes because you know that ought to tell you

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Speaker 1: something I was like, But she should have told me.

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Speaker 1: I should never found out here.

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Speaker 2: Dev felt like he needed to talk about it, even

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Speaker 2: if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with

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Speaker 2: veterans and PTSD.

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Speaker 1: And so over the course of time, he began to

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Speaker 1: tell me what happened. It was an elaborate story, antricate details.

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Speaker 2: As an eighteen year old, he'd been in the Special

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Speaker 2: Forces in Vietnam. One night he caught his senior officers

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Speaker 2: using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers

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Speaker 2: allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a

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Speaker 2: prisoner of war and for months he was tortured.

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Speaker 1: And they bust at his feet with the butt of

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Speaker 1: a gun so that he couldn't walk. But he got out.

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Speaker 1: He escaped and he made it back to the US

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Speaker 1: Forces by following the path of a stream, and it

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Speaker 1: was so difficult because his feet were busted up.

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Speaker 2: He was taken to a veteran's hospital.

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Speaker 1: He had to have metal put in his feet because

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Speaker 1: they were broken, and if we flew anywhere it would

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Speaker 1: trigger the metal alarms as you go in.

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Speaker 2: He recovered physically and was discharged, but psychologically he was scarred.

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Speaker 1: The trauma was so bad. He said, it was just

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Speaker 1: so awful that sometimes he would just get in the

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Speaker 1: closet and he would just hide.

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Speaker 2: Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his

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Speaker 2: support system was then. He was in a new place

258
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Speaker 2: and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb

259
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 2: was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They

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Speaker 2: invited him back to Canada.

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Speaker 1: His siblings had said that his mother's eightieth birthday party

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Speaker 1: was coming up and they wanted him to come. And

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Speaker 1: he talked to him about it, and I said, well,

264
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Speaker 1: we've got to I've never met any of your family.

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Speaker 1: And absolutely.

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Speaker 2: A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet

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Speaker 2: his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were

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Speaker 2: elated to welcome him home and Deb never thought you'd

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Speaker 2: get the chance to meet his siblings.

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Speaker 1: I finally got to meet his family. I was just

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Speaker 1: so excited to be there and to meet them. And

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Speaker 1: you know, at one of the brothers' houses, we might

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Speaker 1: play games and just chat and get to know each other.

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Speaker 2: Deb fit right in.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have any serious meaningful conversations about life or anything.

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Speaker 1: We were just doing a friendly, cordial meet the family thing.

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Speaker 1: He was up be. Everyone was up be. It was

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Speaker 1: a good trip.

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Speaker 2: It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary.

280
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Speaker 2: Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there

281
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 2: was in on a secret, everyone except for her Her husband.

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Speaker 2: Jeff wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone

283
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Speaker 2: in his family knew Jeff by a different name.

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Speaker 1: Come to find out, he met his siblings at the

285
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Speaker 1: door and told him I'm going by Jeff Walton. Now

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you later.

287
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,960
Speaker 2: Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with

288
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Speaker 2: his estranged family, and to her surprise, the trip was

289
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 2: a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer.

290
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Speaker 2: But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff

291
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Speaker 2: collapsed on the golf course.

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Speaker 1: And a friend of ours founding setting up against a

293
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Speaker 1: tree and wanted him to let him take him into

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Speaker 1: the hospital, and he said, no, just take me to

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Speaker 1: my car, and so he did that. He got his

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Speaker 1: car and he drove home.

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Speaker 2: Deb met him at their house and forced him to

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Speaker 2: go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack.

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Speaker 2: It would require ongoing care, but Jeff still hadn't nailed

300
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Speaker 2: down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering

301
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Speaker 2: his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years

302
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Speaker 2: ago and insisted it was their best resource.

303
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Speaker 1: And he absolutely said, I will not go. I don't

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Speaker 1: trust the government. I'm not going. And I said, well,

305
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: that's bullshit. We're going broke. We've got to get your

306
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:20,399
Speaker 1: health care.

307
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Speaker 2: That's when Jeff explained the VA what didn't take him.

308
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Speaker 1: He said, they don't even have a list of me

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Speaker 1: because I was dishonorably discharged because I reported the officers.

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Speaker 1: They won't even have me on the well, anything to

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Speaker 1: do with VA. And I said, that's bullshit. You were

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Speaker 1: a soldier, you were captured. And he said, I won't go.

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Speaker 1: He got up and he never talked about it again.

314
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Speaker 1: In that moment, I was like, that is weird.

315
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Speaker 2: Explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone

316
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Speaker 2: to look into Jeff's background.

317
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 1: I wonder if I need to get a private investigator

318
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 1: or something. And I logged on to the internet and

319
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 1: then I was like, God, I don't have any money

320
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Speaker 1: to get a private detective.

321
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Speaker 2: She didn't have the money or the time to hire

322
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Speaker 2: a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke.

323
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Speaker 2: Then his memory began to falter. All the while he

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Speaker 2: was refusing to go to the VA. It financially strained

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Speaker 2: the family, and Deb was at a loss.

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Speaker 1: I had begun to say, I do not know what

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Speaker 1: is wrong with my life. How am I going to

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Speaker 1: get this guy health care? He's got to have healthcare.

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Speaker 2: Deb was his primary caretaker on top of her full

330
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Speaker 2: time nursing job. It was overwhelming.

331
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Speaker 1: I begin to drink, and then I drink heavily, and

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Speaker 1: then it was uncontrollably.

333
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 2: Alcohol became an escape from her marriage and its problems.

334
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 1: When I started drinking, I didn't have to be confused

335
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Speaker 1: anymore because my brain was numb.

336
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 2: Dev had spent so many years taking care of other

337
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Speaker 2: people that she neglected herself.

338
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Speaker 1: As the person that was going to alan on from

339
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: the mid eighties, taking family, taking coworkers, taking friends to

340
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: aa NA rehab. I was taken everybody to get help,

341
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 1: but myself had, I guess, reached just a hard stop

342
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: where I couldn't deal with it.

343
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: Dev had just turned fifty and had been with Jeff

344
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Speaker 2: for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder

345
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 2: year after year. At first he failed to bring in

346
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Speaker 2: a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused

347
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 2: resources for affordable health care. Deb turned to booze for

348
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Speaker 2: the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking,

349
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 2: she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball

350
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Speaker 2: on the tee. She checked herself into a thirty day rehab.

351
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Speaker 1: Best move I ever made. I'm not going to tell

352
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: you it was pretty. It was ugly, but there's always

353
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Speaker 1: been a driving force within me to rise above.

354
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: Being alone. In rehab gave her a lot of clarity,

355
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Speaker 2: and with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When

356
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a

357
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 2: new set of eyes.

358
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Speaker 1: I began to really observe he was strange. Something was

359
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: not right, not right.

360
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 2: She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was

361
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 2: on her new sobriety, but she did come up with

362
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 2: a plan to get some answers out of Jeff. She

363
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 2: gave him an assignment.

364
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: And I began to say to him, Jeff, every day

365
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: while I'm at work, I want you to work on

366
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: your life story because I don't understand it. You told me.

367
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: You were born in Alaska and you moved to Canada,

368
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: but I don't know where you even went to school.

369
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 1: I don't even know when you moved to Canada. If

370
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: something happens, I'm going to be honest with you. I

371
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: can't even write an obituary.

372
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: She thought it would be a good exercise for both

373
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Speaker 2: of them, and she hoped it could help her understand

374
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Speaker 2: why he was the way he was, and so every.

375
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Speaker 1: Day I would come home and I would we'll share

376
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: your story with me. Oh, I couldn't work on it today.

377
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: After his stroke, Jeff's memory was worse than ever.

378
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: He began to claim that he just didn't have much

379
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: of a memory, but the neurologist at the time of

380
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 1: his stroke had already advised me that the stroke was

381
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: not going to impact his memory. Then he wanted me

382
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: to get in checked from possible early dementia.

383
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: He needed more care than she could provide a home,

384
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: so she applied for him to be in a funded

385
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: outpatient care facility and he was accepted.

386
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful program that where you stay in your home,

387
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: but they basically have a center that's opened during the

388
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: day and there's activities and transportation, there's clinic on side,

389
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: everything that you could need, and if you need something outside,

390
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: they'll take you.

391
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: He started going to the center every day.

392
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: That was until the program called me and they said,

393
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: have you talked to Jeff? Because nobody confining he's gone.

394
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was.

395
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost,

396
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: so they called the police.

397
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: Come to find out. He had left the group and

398
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: the care team to go to the bank.

399
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 2: When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening.

400
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 2: The whole Saiit situation confirmed that he really needed this facility.

401
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly

402
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call.

403
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: Only this one would change her life forever.

404
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: It was a number I didn't recognizing. I typically didn't

405
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: pick those up in my office.

406
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: It was an international call, but Deb had a strange feeling.

407
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 2: When she picked up. There was a police officer on

408
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,719
Speaker 2: the other line.

409
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: And I was like, what is this about.

410
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 2: The officer was Canadian and he was investigating a cold

411
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: case from thirty years ago.

412
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: That's when he began to say that they were looking

413
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: for ron Stan, and they had believed that they're tracking

414
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: down through social media.

415
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: But Deb didn't know a ron Stan. The officer continued,

416
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 2: explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man

417
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: named ron Stan for over thirty years.

418
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: He disappeared during a There was a fire in his

419
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: barn at night, and initially he was presumed to have

420
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 3: been in that fire, and he had left a wife, infant,

421
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: and another child.

422
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: Deb's blood ran cold. She knew what the officer was

423
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: about to say before he said it. The man she

424
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: was married to, who she knew as Jeff Walton.

425
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: Was actually the complete fraud. He was ron Stan. Who

426
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: was this missing person?

427
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about ron Stan. He was originally declared dead,

428
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: but in reality he'd been on the run ever since

429
00:26:43,440 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: that barnfire. Eleven years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got

430
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian

431
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: police officer. They were looking for ron Stan, a Canadian

432
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an

433
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: arson fire in nineteen seventy seven, and they believed they'd

434
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: found him in the United States. He was hiding out

435
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation, using the

436
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb.

437
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: Initially I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke, so.

438
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: She asked the officer for proof, for details.

439
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: The more I pushed for dates, times, names, locations, the

440
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: more I realized, oh ugh.

441
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: She didn't see much on the phone. She just listened,

442
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: writing down everything the police told.

443
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,959
Speaker 1: Her, every detail, dates, times, information. I still have that notepad.

444
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff or Ron directly.

445
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: Deb explained that he was in a care facility during

446
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their

447
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: home address, thanked the officer and hung up the phone

448
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: in disbelief.

449
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: I was sitting there when there was a nurse that

450
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: looked at me from an office door and she said,

451
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: are you okay. I remember saying, I don't know. I've

452
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: just had the most bizarre phone call. So I went

453
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: to talk to my director of nursing and she said,

454
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: get out of here. What in the world.

455
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: She debated whether this phone call was real, if the

456
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: person on the phone was even a police officer. A

457
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: coworker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility, he probably.

458
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: Is in witness protection and you just blew it, so

459
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: you're probably not safe, nor is he. And they said,

460
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: we'll go with you to the Cherokee Nation Marshals and

461
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: we will get to the bottom of this.

462
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if

463
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: the call she'd received was real or if Jeff could

464
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concern seriously

465
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: and started making calls.

466
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: I gave her the sale number, the badge number, and

467
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: everything from the officer that called. And she did call,

468
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: and she confirmed every last detail.

469
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of

470
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: eleven years was a missing person, a man named Ronald

471
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: Stan who'd faked his death in an arson fire and

472
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: had been on the run for thirty years.

473
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: I was just heartsick, gut sick, heartsick, my whole body responded,

474
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: and all I could think of was, who are you?

475
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: How could you do this?

476
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario

477
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: and nineteen seventy seven, he abandoned his wife and two

478
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: young sons. In order to escape, He had lit his

479
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched

480
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: the blaze helpless, fearing that ron was trapped inside.

481
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: That poor wife and those two sons that he walked

482
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: away from in this barn far in the middle of

483
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: the night. What horror, what pain, what trauma that they

484
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: must have endured thinking that they were watching him burn

485
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: up in front of their eyes.

486
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: Why he'd faked his death. Deb wouldn't find out until

487
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't

488
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: go home, not to the house she shared with him.

489
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So

490
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: the Tarokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan.

491
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: Go to an attorney, go to the bank, and get protection.

492
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: So that's what I did.

493
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the

494
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay

495
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: at her place while she figured out her next move.

496
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: I just was in a state of robot just trying

497
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: to put one foot in front of the other and

498
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: then formulate a plan on how to tell the family.

499
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: She met with her sons to break the news, and

500
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: with all of their support, she called Jeff's son, the

501
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: one he'd had in America after he went on the run.

502
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: After all, he was the only child Deb knew about I.

503
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: Loved that boy. He was my son too, you know,

504
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: he was a third son, So my heart hurt for him,

505
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: just like it did for my boys. To tell him.

506
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: Everyone in the family called him Little Jeff. He was

507
00:31:53,960 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: named after his father, or rather his father's alias and Gizres.

508
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: The box was, you know, silent initially as you could imagine,

509
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: and then just struggling. We both needed some time to

510
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: just deal.

511
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: The one person she didn't want to speak with was Jeff.

512
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: I really did not have any communication with him whatsoever.

513
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: I just had nothing to say.

514
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: When the authorities finally got a hold of Jeff, they

515
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: questioned him and asked to see his proof of identity.

516
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: He admitted to everything.

517
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to

518
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: police officers asking what took them so long? Because the

519
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations

520
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: had expired in Canada, and authorities in the US couldn't

521
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: charge him either.

522
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: There was no charges to be made here. You know,

523
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: he's a scam, but there's no charges that I could follo.

524
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: The only legal action deb could take was filing for divorce.

525
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: The domestic Violence Service of the tribe helped me and

526
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: just took the papers and when they served in the papers,

527
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: he just signed it. He didn't even question it.

528
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: The news caught wind of the story and it was

529
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: a media frenzy.

530
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: Media showed up, some Canada and some Oklahoma from the UK.

531
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: I just didn't have any peace. I could rarely go home.

532
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: My phone ranking constantly. I was just completely overwhelmed.

533
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: Debsnie's drafted a statement to send to the press on

534
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: her behalf, and deb kept tabs on the news. That's

535
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: how she learned Jeff's real life story, the one he

536
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star

537
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered

538
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: a possible motivation for why he faked his death.

539
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: Evidently, he was messing with young college girls and he

540
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: was getting ready to get in trouble.

541
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: At the time of the arson, Ron was working at

542
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with

543
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: a local girl who was much younger. The day he

544
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 2: went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed.

545
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: It's not clear how old the girl was, but the

546
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 2: threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the

547
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled

548
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: it off.

549
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: When he left Canada in the fire in Cana, New Orleans,

550
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: he said, I've got to find a woman with money.

551
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd

552
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: never told deb about. And after he found a woman

553
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity.

554
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: He got a social Security from somebody that had died

555
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: in the seventies, a girl, so he took over her

556
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: social security.

557
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: He used his stolen identity to find work and even

558
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: collect Social Security benefits.

559
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: That's how he worked in the decades that he came

560
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: to the United States. He used this social security and

561
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: false name. I don't know how anybody pulls this off.

562
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 1: It's so elaborate.

563
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 2: When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media

564
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: about how and why he faked his death, and he

565
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: seemed to revel in it.

566
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star.

567
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: He said.

568
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: He chose the name Jeff because it was the name

569
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: of his infant son he abandoned in Canada, and the

570
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: last name Walton was inspired by the TV show The Waltons.

571
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: It sounded like a classic American last name. As for

572
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: the documents he used to marry Dub, they appeared to

573
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: be forged.

574
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: I had seen his birth certificate and I still have it.

575
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: But when you look there are things that have been changed,

576
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: like the arson.

577
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: Too much time had passed for him to be charged

578
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: in the US with identity fraud. And what about his

579
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: elaborate stories like being a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

580
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: It's all made up.

581
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: That's why he was so resistant to using the VA.

582
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even

583
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: an American citizen. The POW story, well, he ripped those

584
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: details straight out of a movie called Platoon starring Charlie Sheen.

585
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: And his football career at Ohio State with Woody Hayes.

586
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: There was never anybody that played football, so Woody Hayes

587
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,479
Speaker 1: by his name.

588
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: Ever, Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told

589
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: her was true. Today she doubts if he'd even swung

590
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: a golf club before she met him. After all his

591
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: lies were exposed, one of Deb's friends finally came clean

592
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: about something. Remember the golf trip where Deb's friends iced

593
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: them out. Well, back then the group had discovered that.

594
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: He cheated all day, he never counts the strokes, and

595
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: when he was out of bounds, he never counted it.

596
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from

597
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: Deb's friends. That's why they were never invited to play

598
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: with the group again. Even his memory issues were alie.

599
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: When he talked to the press after the fact, he

600
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: seemed to remember every detail just fine. So what was

601
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: really going on that day when he went missing from

602
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 2: the facility and was found at the bank. Deb suspects

603
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: he was planning an escape. She also wonders if he

604
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: targeted her because she lives in a rural part of

605
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 2: the Cherokee Nation.

606
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: It's very possible because look, this is rule, this is

607
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: a dead end road. Maybe he did think, hey, I

608
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: can get out in the woods and rule Oklahoma and

609
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: continued the hide.

610
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is

611
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 2: that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage.

612
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal, but behind the scenes,

613
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 2: Jeff had asked all of his family members to use

614
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,919
Speaker 2: his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said

615
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: they were so happy to see him again that they obliged.

616
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: They did it because they'd lost him once and they

617
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: didn't want to lose him again. And I think they

618
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: were just so happy to have him back in their lives.

619
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than

620
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her.

621
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception.

622
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 2: In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer

623
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: to him, what name to call him by, whether to

624
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: call him Ron or Jeff.

625
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: But I had a really dear friend. She nicknamed him Raf,

626
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: and so for a while when I referred to him,

627
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: it was ref But now I usually just say Jeff.

628
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb

629
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: was emotion destroyed. It all happened in her first year

630
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son,

631
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: and Deb was left alone in the house they shared.

632
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: I just remember it was a profound moment. It's the

633
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: duality of oh, my god, what in the world along

634
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 1: with you have to live, you have to deal with

635
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: this and go on. And I remember just laying in

636
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: the floor, just face down and just solb me and saying,

637
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: my god, how does another human do this to a human?

638
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: And the guise of love.

639
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like

640
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 2: her world had ended.

641
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: I just had so much pain and confusion. I got

642
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: on my knees, I leaned into a chair, and I

643
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: just kept praying and asking for help, and just if

644
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: you can get me on my feet, I will go forward.

645
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: I will keep my sobriety. I promise a promise. I

646
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: made a commitment to live life, to help others, to

647
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: be the best person I can, to be loving, kind.

648
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: I mean, those were the things I'd always been, but

649
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: I was not going to let this make me harsh

650
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: and hateful.

651
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity.

652
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: You know, we often talk of spiritual awakenings. I feel

653
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: like I've had a few in my life. But that

654
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: was profound, profound, And when I stood up, you know,

655
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: I was still crying, but I wasn't suffering as much.

656
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: I didn't feel the pain as deep at the betrayal

657
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: or shock, and I knew that when I stood up,

658
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: that it was something great later than me. It said,

659
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: get up, you got work to do. Go on.

660
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: She got up that day, and she's stayed on her

661
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: feet ever since.

662
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: I made a commitment to do that in that moment,

663
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: and I've never turned back, and I've never tried to

664
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: rewrite the story, and I don't want to live in bitterness.

665
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: I still wanted to be open hearted and help others,

666
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: and that's what set the tone for the years to

667
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: where we are today.

668
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: She's now eleven years sober.

669
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: I maintained sobriety. I was dedicated to my meetings, and

670
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 1: I was dedicated to the spiritual journey and dealing with

671
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: my loss and grief and shock.

672
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: She took on a leadership role in her tribe as

673
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: director of a program providing resources and support to victims

674
00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: of domestic violence.

675
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: I would say, you've still got to stay working on

676
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: your emotional health because it's a tough service. What I

677
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: know for sure is that we can't help others adequately

678
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 1: or appropriately if we haven't begun our own work to hear.

679
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm more effective in these last years

680
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: because of all the work I've done.

681
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, she got a call from Jeff's son,

682
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: Jeff had passed away.

683
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: It was a sense of relief, but also all the

684
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: emotions that flood into that moment, you just have to hold.

685
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: Them in the last few years, her life has taken

686
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: an unexpected turn.

687
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: I've just recently married on September seventh, and I never

688
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: saw it come in both of us or never's And

689
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: it was the most beautiful wedding outdoors, overlooking the lake.

690
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: It was just beautiful, romantic, just wonderful.

691
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: After all, she did make a commitment to being open hearted.

692
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: Her new husband meets her at her level, and he's

693
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 2: put in the work too.

694
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: He is also sober, him forty something years. Both of

695
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: us love golf, both of us love music. It's just

696
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: a blessing for us both. We feel so grateful. It's

697
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: too bad we're meeting each other at seventy and sixty seven,

698
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: but here we are.

699
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question,

700
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: why did you want to share your story?

701
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: If my story could help others identify lies from their

702
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: partner earlier, that's one part. The real part is we

703
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: can hear, and we can have a good lie, and

704
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: we can live well the trauma and the pain and

705
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: the suffering and the sorrow. We have the potential to

706
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: just be an amazing human. On the other side, leave

707
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: your heart open, love others, help others learn boundaries set limits.

708
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal.

709
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 4: My mom was the first one to be like, does

710
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 4: this seem off at all to you? It was really

711
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 4: the first time someone said something that made me think,

712
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 4: what do you mean off? Like I had never considered

713
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 4: doubting it.

714
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

715
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email

716
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: us at Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal

717
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: pod at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support.

718
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: One way to show us is by subscribing to our

719
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and

720
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A

721
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is

722
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 2: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,

723
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced

724
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by

725
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 2: me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also

726
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and

727
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kriinchech.

728
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vecchio, additional editing

729
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains.

730
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: Music library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts

731
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

732
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: you've get your podcasts