WEBVTT - French President Emmanuel Macron Talks Europe’s Role in a Multipolar Future 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.440 Let's go now to an exclusive conversation with French President 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:07.200 Emmanuel Macron speaking with Bloomberg Stephanie Flanders in Berlin. 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:13.640 Roller and thank you for organizing the seventh look. I 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:18.520 hope the maximum number of items because I really believe 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.840 that we are at risk. To be honest, and it's 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:29.120 just a word. I think our own model was completely 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:35.600 changed and has to be research. And when you look 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:40.479 at the European model, largely based by the way on 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.159 the strength of German during Germany during the past decades, 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:49.960 we were based on exports and a big part of 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.680 the key industry can making industry. To China, we were 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:59.840 based on localst energy. Russian guys. We were based on 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:08.200 deferend umbrella from the US without any question, and everything 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:13.640 now is shaken. China has over capacities and is clearly 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.040 a competitive place, so it's no more secured place for 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.960 our exports. Russian war killed locals energy and the killer 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.959 of our competitiveness today is a big gap in terms 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.160 of energy prices every worse. This is why we have 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.520 to completely change our business and have an integrated energy model, 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.840 because we can deliver with nuclear and renewables, but not 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:42.880 without being integrated and very clearly Afghanistan. Some people are 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.480 gonna have doubts, and the potential change in leadership in 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:49.240 the US means that this is not a guarantee total total. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.280 So this is I want to insist on that because 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.280 it's super important to assess fairly the fact that our 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.640 former model is over and this is not a question 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.200 of act adjustment. This is not the same world twenty 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.080 twenty four, twenty twenty five. And on top of that, 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:09.440 we are making the same mistakes. On top of the 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:14.160 key elements I mentioned, we are overregulating and underinvesting. So 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.200 just if in the two to three years to come, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.560 if we follow our classical agenda, we will be out 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.200 of the market, I have no doubt. So I think 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:25.919 what we have to deliver in the two three years 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:31.560 to come is capital market union. My view is that 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.880 we have to rush on energy beyond what we already decided, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.080 which will be implemented for twenty twenty six, which will 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:43.600 avoid the big pick and the unstability of the energy 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.920 market we had during the past few years. We corrected that, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.560 but we have to go much faster and further, and 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:55.760 we need this investment shock I mentioned and I think 0:02:55.800 --> 0:03:01.800 the simplification agenda and the derec let's say pose in 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.680 terms of regulation, but even the regulation in some issues 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:05.800 it's absolutely critical. 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.440 Can you have any investment Can you have that investment 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.040 shop without issuance of joint debt? 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.840 I think you know the best way to deliver is 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:20.200 not to to create big trauma at the beginning by experience. 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.160 But you persuade, You persuaded the Germans before. Can't you 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:26.600 do it again? 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:31.240 This is true, but I was, if I want to 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.720 be fair, I was a little bit helped by a 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:39.240 colleague called COVID nineteen and it changed the reality. But 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.720 what I think we have an external systemic shock. I 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.720 think we have to assess that during the pandemic we 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.560 all experienced a symmetric shock for all our economies. And 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.960 this is why we made this move move with Chancellor Merkele, 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.400 and I think it was a unique movement. This is 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:02.720 really for me, a fundamental change of our EU. Now. 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.160 I want us to be totally aware of the fact 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:09.800 that we are leaving a symmetric shock on our economies 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:16.240 whose scale and magnitude is underestimated because the real location 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.839 factor is huge. Look at the chemical industry, in Europe 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.320 completely being relocated because of Irea I mentioned, if you 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:28.599 don't deliver the level playing filled agender, we will be 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:33.000 super happy with rich as a good regulation for European consumer, 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:40.599 but for no more existing chemical industry, and it will 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.039 be the same for still it will be the same 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.479 for I mean the existing business we have because of 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:50.840 energy costs and overregulation. So we have to fix energy 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.480 issue and overregulation and for me the single market and 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:59.960 energy and on top of that, diversification of our phoney 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:06.680 to reduce this discrepancy and acceleration of level playing field 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:10.880 agenda and pose in terms of regulation is critical. And 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:12.840 if we don't have the level playing field agenda, we 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.919 will be killed in this market. And in parallel, for 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.479 clean energy and artificial intelligence, we have to invest much 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.480 more rapidly and protect as well or key players, otherwise 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.000 they will be relocated in the US. 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.000 Lars Hendrik I mentioned the joint debt question, but actually 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.520 there's a broader issue here that you listen to President Macron, 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.359 you read the drug report, you read many speeches frankly 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:44.479 from from European leaders, but not from the German Chancellor, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:50.080 not from German leaders assessing the threat to the growth 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:54.240 model in as fundamentally as this the stark language that 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:59.320 President Macron has used it just if looking on the outside, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.400 if how will we get how does Europe move forward? 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.240 Rush forward on this agenda? If there isn't that understanding, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.320 that same analysis at the top in Germany. 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.679 I'm not sure that you don't share the analysis with 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:18.080 with mister with the Chancellor shots obviously he's a different person. 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.080 But I think the analysis that we need simplification what 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.359 you were just saying, we need more investment, we have 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:29.160 less regulation. I think that is something which you know 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.279 the chancell he also says, and I think that's a 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:36.000 fundamental issue. I think capital market union, as I said, 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.560 is an important step. But in the end, and you know, 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.960 he has been a remarkable European. I remember when you 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.080 first came. You're actually a chaperd for a while. If 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:48.280 I may say that. 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:51.080 Yeah, both sapers together. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:52.640 Right, But he has moved on a lot. 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.480 I don't think you should feel bad. I think it's okay. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.960 And of course you know he there's a reason why 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.800 he's moved on, and so he you know, he came 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.120 on stage and he said, we want Europe, and you 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:11.400 give your speech, and there was a debate whether Germany 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.240 was responding appropriate to the to the young French president 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:20.040 who was doing that. But I think he was always 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.560 this good European and I think we're very lucky to 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.880 have him actually as a European. Also if you think 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.520 about the latest developments in your country, if I may 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.760 say so, mister president, and also in our country. And 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:32.840 I think the ultimate problem always in the end, and 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.560 you alluded to that in the previous round on AI 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.640 either just to the two or the European industrial policies, 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.880 that there's still no European answer to many of these things. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.160 And if you know, an industrial policy and deregulation and 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.560 drug report makes that point and is Europe really ready 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:54.520 to give more power? You always also talked a lot 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.520 about the governance of Europe, and you know the way 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:01.600 we are organized with Commission and counsel and very powerful 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.200 national leaders, and that is a fundamental issue which I 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.800 think makes it very difficult. But I think this is 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.720 something which in the end is going to be again 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.360 a very important issue. So I think that is something 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:19.000 which is But I think that the Dragon reports on 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.440 the common debt, this is where I was getting here. 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.080 I think if I may say that, then you're closer, 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.760 of course than I am. I don't think it is. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.280 The problem is not the common debt per se, But 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:32.880 I think it is that you want to make sure 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.400 that the money is spent properly and there's no moral 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.240 hazard with it. We discussed this long time, many many times. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.080 So I think it requires also certain governance. For example, 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.800 you think about the Defense Union. I think if you 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.800 want common debt on the defense, you also need competencies 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.640 at the European level because you have to have the 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.880 decision power and the debt really hand in hand. So 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.760 I think the common debt is easier once you give 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.600 more of the governance also to the impavement. But that's 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.960 really a difficult issue. So I would you know, and 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.080 I think this is an ongoing process, but I think 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.680 what you're saying makes sense. But I think in the end, 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.760 the big disadvantage of Europe is really I mean, i'd 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:16.800 be interested in what you think is that we really 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:21.520 don't have in many of these areas this European vision 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:26.120 which you of anybody has actually he does, yes, but 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.960 it's not easy in Europe, you know, with and even 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:30.960 if I may say so, if Germany and France. You 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.440 said on Capitol Market Union in Meserbach, you have a 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.000 paper which took us I think ten years or something 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.080 to get a French and a German position on that. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.640 Then the question is also is the rest of Europe 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.559 going to fall in line? That's also an interesting question 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.040 because they're getting more competent and more confident as well. 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.679 So the leadership of Germany and France is very very important. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.360 I think the only way actually to move Europe forward. 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.560 I think that's also your view. But are the others 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.400 then also in the future more likely to fall in 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.520 line in terms of moving Europe forward? 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.040 Those are Can we move on just because you have 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.600 Maybe it took ten years to have Franco German agreement 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.280 on that, but we've only got a few days to 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:17.120 have Franco German agreement on the tariffs on Chinese electrical vehicles, 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.600 and you mentioned it in your speech. 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:21.240 On this stage. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.440 A year ago, actually I spoke to Chancellor Schultz who 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.760 said he didn't want to see a trade war with China. 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:33.960 He didn't like tariffs. His minister earlier said something quite similar. 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.680 But there is a vote on whether those tariffs go 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.400 through on Friday, so can I just ask do you 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.800 think that will pass, that the EU governments will confirm 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:43.560 those tariffs. 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.440 I don't know before the vote. I can tell you 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:51.160 that I do supports the European Commission on that because 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:57.440 what I was speaking about electrical vehicles on the European market, 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:02.280 and what is a reality. You have the European car makers, 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.760 they go to the market and by the way, we 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.400 use our taxpayers money to subsidize the consumer to buy 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.800 these cars, and they have to compete with some car 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.360 makers producing in China with an existing advantage. But it's 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.120 part of the offshoring production because they produce in much 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.160 lower cost condition. But on top of that they benefit 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:28.320 from subsidies from the Chinese government. This is a bias 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:33.600 for your market. I think this is the question is 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:35.760 which model do you choose? Do you want to be 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.520 a consumer or a producer. And now this dilemma we 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.240 have twenty years ago for solar panels, we decided to 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.760 kill our markets and we exactly we had the same dilemma. 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.560 We did choose. We killed our industry. We had an 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.520 existing industry, we killed it, and we had we deployed 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:57.320 solar panels in a lot of places Chinese once, so 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.240 we created a dependency which could create some problem. We 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.400 experience that in COVID time, and we killed the ability 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.240 to produce on the European soil. It's not a good 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.680 idea when you need growth and you have to finance 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:15.760 such a social model as the one we have now. 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.040 The question is do we want a fair competition or not. 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:24.280 I don't want a fair competition. So the EU Commission 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:31.920 launched precisely a series of studios exchange with all the 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:36.480 car makers and just correct the level of discrepancies to 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:41.040 establish the level playing field, so you have something from 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.520 nine to ten for those who are less helped. And 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.520 I think the range is between twenty one and thirty 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:51.360 five percent tariffs for these car makers. But with evidence 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.560 and figures which could be which way exchanged with the 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.000 car makers and will be exchanged with the Chinese industry. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.560 We already have retaliation. By the way, I can speak 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.920 with a clear of you because it's on Cognac, nothing 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.560 to deal with with with the car and I can 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.040 tell you that Cognac was never held by the French government, 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.880 so which means it is a pure retaliation. But this 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.200 is a matter of credibility for our market, and I 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.679 insisted that if you don't preserve the love of the 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.680 playing field, just don't hope that you want to produce 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.000 and preserve your industrial foot print in your hope. 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.240 You spoke to Chancellor Shows earlier. 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:28.840 I think. 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:31.560 Did you make progress? 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.240 Unfortunately you didn't even have any advisers in the room 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.840 and the reporters were unable as no chance of us 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:37.319 finding out. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:42.679 So and I do respect all the positions and the 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:47.640 sensitivity of the market. I think the question is what 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.680 will become the Chinese market for the for the carmakers. 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:55.760 My view is that it did change during the past 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.800 few years and it should not be underestimated. This market 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:04.200 is not just a market open to our carmakers. You 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:09.880 can deploy through GVS good operations, but this is much 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.080 more competitive than it was a few years ago. Chinese 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.679 carmakers are super competitive and sometimes better than we are. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.200 And this is a market in other capacities. And if 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:27.080 we don't protect but just restore the condition of level 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.520 playing field, we will be the adjustment zone of the 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.840 other capacities. Because the US just put a one hundred 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:39.760 person tax one hundred person tax undifferentiated, so let's wake up. 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.200 We live in the same world. You cannot have China 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.280 over subsidizing a lot of countries, even India and others 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.320 reacting to these subsidies, the US overreacting by one hundred 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:56.200 person Tife and the odd thing. You're welcome and it 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:02.720 doesn't fly. Otherwise we will be happy consumers of non 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.120 European producers. I can tell you we would have an issue, 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:07.720 of course in a few years time. 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.680 How important is it to have Europe You spoke about 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.120 the importance of Europe speaking with one voice in order 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.480 to get one voice on this would you be would 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.280 you agree to a delay or some kind of compromise 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:22.280 or you think I want. 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.160 To be efficient and find compromise and respect all the positions. 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.040 I think the I want to advocate the CEO commissions 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.320 they did a great job. It was both to do 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.760 so honestly, because they had a lot of pressure not 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.200 to do it. And in the DNA of the Commission. 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.280 You know that you work there, Larsendric, doing years. It 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:43.840 was not in the DNA of the European Commission to 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.640 work on this type of issue. And I think it's 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:52.040 for me. This is a signal that clearly we have 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:58.200 a strategic a much more strategic and geo strategic commission 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:03.440 as we wanted then before. But clearly I want to 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.480 insist in that we are not just a market of 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:11.000 consumers and we were used just to behave following these 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.360 nine and this is not a good idea and we 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.760 will have exactly the same issue on still industry. I 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.320 believe that on still industry we are much more aligned 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:24.360 with the Chancellor in Germany. I do believe. I'm sure 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.280 that on capital market union simplification we are very much online. 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.240 So I want to insist on the fact that there 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.320 is a very strong Forcal German alignment. Here is an 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.920 issue very sensitive for some key players in your country. 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.760 What I do respect. So the work has to be 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:45.920 finalized with European Commission and I'm optimistic. But today and 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.600 Arsdrig was right to mention it. We worked very hard 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:54.840 with Chancellor shots on these issues and I mean it 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.760 is very much aligned on capital market union simplification, a 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.840 bit to invest much more public and private money and 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.320 as well being much more reactive to protect our still 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.439 industry or chemical industry. So you have a strong Franco 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:11.520 German alignment set. 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.919 You talked about protectionism as an ugly word, and that 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:20.720 it's about having a different strategic and more realistic strategic vision, 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:25.000 as the US does and certainly as China does. I 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.680 wonder if, at the same time as having these tariffs 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.320 for a level playing field, if you were to support, 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.440 for example, finally moving ahead with Mercasore, would that send 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.159 a message to other parts of the world that Europe 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.600 is still open for business, that this is a specific 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:44.240 thing with China, But actually Europe is still very much 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:45.879 open to trade deals. 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.320 I'm in favor of any deal which will be fair. 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.240 Does it look fair right now? 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:59.040 Why? Because exactly the same reason level playing field. You 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:05.080 cannot impose a bunch of regulation to your industries and 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.480 your farmers that they are digesting by the way, because 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.520 it's not yet completed, and at the same time open 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:16.639 to economies totally designed with this regulation, How do you 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.960 want to explain to a farmer that it will be 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.720 it will not be allowed to use this pesticide, this 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.080 chemical ingredients and so on. And at the same time 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.200 on ease sector you say you are more than welcome, 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:37.680 you can come with your food without respecting the same world. Honestly, 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:42.520 I I never advocate regulation that I don't understand myself, 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.679 and I think this is a good rule and don't 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.120 be naive. We speak about Merco Shore Brazil just imposed 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:58.359 tariffs for if It as well, and in the care system. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.480 They want to exclude public procurement for the deal from 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:06.000 the deal. They protects themselves, the protect the economies. And 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.800 my point is just we I think a lot of 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.080 people in Europe underestimated what happened during the past two 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.720 to three years. But we had two huge shocks which 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:22.639 could completely change our approach. I and war in Ukraine, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.600 the end of our energtical model and the end of 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:32.080 the WT or order I love Andngzi. I am a 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.879 strong advocate of the W two. To understand me, but 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.720 just for the first time in our recent histories, the 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.160 US decided not to be compliant with the W two 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.840 for clintech. But this is two huge change. If we 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.560 stay and stick to the same policy we are, we 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.280 have no chance. And just look at the real location 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.720 of so many industries, so many part of our industries. 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:56.920 Just to follow briefly on Maca. 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.560 So because after you saw him, I think Chancellor Shows 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.600 gave a spe each today where he was proposing a 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:07.000 sort of Mercasare light that that the EU specific bit 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.680 of Mercasore, which doesn't involve some of the investment guarantees 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.320 and things which involve government needing to all agree. So 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.000 I just wondered, is that something that you would support 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:19.879 or would be resigned to that. 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.199 Happens without perfectly understand it is? 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.359 It is the bit of the Mercasore deal that has 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.440 been negotiated that only involves I think Lars Henry will 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:28.879 be an expert. 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:30.600 You can understand. 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.680 Well, I can only continue to. 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.600 Express strategically not understanding. 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:41.240 I can be very clear. 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.800 I'm afraid to understand. 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.000 Well, the truth is it could happen without you, that's no. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.600 But I mean, I mean, you know, you know there's 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.119 a you know, sorry way, there's all these trade deals 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.600 have an EU part, EU only part, and then they 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.879 have something usually investment, which is national that has to 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.439 be approved by all national governments. And if you split 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:06.639 this and just to the EU part, it only has 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.320 to be ratified by the European Council. But because France 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.239 is in the European Council and without France is not 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:13.200 going to be ratified. 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.960 So if he doesn't agree, why. 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:17.960 Is your chancellor suggesting today that you just move ahead 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.520 with the EA that micro feels this way. 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.359 Well, yeah, I mean he still has to work with 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.960 France obviously, even if it's EU only, but he will 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.960 avoid going through all the national parliaments. 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.200 But let I mean, but you know that. 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.439 Carey, I mean favor. We negotiated and not even notified 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.600 a lot of trade dealdering the past few years. I 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.960 mean set with Canada, with Chinese, Chile, New Zealand and 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.960 some others, and these one are a good example of 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.560 those where we integrated the climate change issue because Paris 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.320 agreements if you implement it, and this is what we 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:58.160 decided to do, and I think we're right, it's sustainable 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.960 if you use the fact that you I mean, we 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:05.480 don't use our capacity to put pressure on our partners, 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:07.920 given the fact that we are a market on more 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.480 than four dred million consumers. But if you decide to 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.960 push your producers to make a move to be compliant 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.600 with perase agreement, which I do support, we have to 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.359 do two things at the same time, not just constraints 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:24.960 with milestones and new regulation. You have to invest to 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.880 help them companies our households and to make the change 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:34.399 acceptable and to preserve precisely part of their competitiveness. And 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.080 at the same time you have to use that to 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:43.000 make it a strategic instrument of your industrial policy. Otherwise 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:47.840 you have always to choose between climate sovereignty and an industry. 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:50.639 You can reconcile them if you are ready to use 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.320 it as a bargaining poorer. Don't you think that countries 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:56.600 are interested to have better access to the European market. 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:03.040 For sure, it's an instrument to create incentives for them 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.600 to be compliant and have the same level of regulation 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:11.000 than we have on these key issues. Otherwise, I can 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:13.840 tell you in the years to come, you will have 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:16.879 a majority to stop with the climate change agenda, and 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:23.960 people with dismant will dismantle the carbon neutrality agenda for sure, 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.160 because it's just it is not compatible. And I'm sorry 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:30.400 to say that, but in Marcosio it since you have Argentina. 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.560 When I hear the friend I've got relation with President Milay, 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:38.000 but I don't hear somebody with total is convinced by 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:42.480 the climate agenda and wants to deliver. A matter of fact, 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.720 and two years ago in Brazil we had complete a 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:52.200 skeptical guy on climate change. This is matter of fact, 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:56.280 So I'm totally in favor of trade. I think we 0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:58.199 live in an open world. It provided a lot of 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:02.560 growth during decades in awaconomy. I think we have. It's 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:05.720 part of the change of our own ya. Just wake 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:10.560 up bus US and China. They do protect their market, 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:15.080 they do subsidize their economy. They do invest much more 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:19.879 than we do buss public and private innovation. So we 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:21.080 have to adapt ourselves. 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:25.000 One of the big features of your presidency in the 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:30.200 first few years, President Macaun was that strength at home 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:36.080