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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Ever?

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Speaker 1: Your trust This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 4: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 4: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 4: and manipulation from the two smartest women in the world

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Speaker 4: who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 1: I am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 5: And I'm Megan Elizabeth And of course we are smart.

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Speaker 5: But the smartest woman in the world is a reference

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Speaker 5: to Keith and Nary calling himself the smartest man in

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Speaker 5: the world.

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Speaker 1: No, no, I'm actually the smartest woman in the world.

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Speaker 5: No, I mean I am too, but we just we

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Speaker 5: have to sound humble.

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Speaker 4: No, no, sorry, yes, I mean no, I'm not. Is

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Speaker 4: there a helicopter coming to you right now today? Oh? No,

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Speaker 4: steal your brain power? God damn it is that. What's

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Speaker 4: happening this week is Part one with at Long Last

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Speaker 4: Sarah at Edmondson. She is a survivor of Nexium and

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Speaker 4: host of podcasts A Little Bit Cult Tea along with

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Speaker 4: her husband, and they have a book out now of

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Speaker 4: the same name that gets into all things cults. Today,

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Speaker 4: she's going to tell us about how she first joined

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Speaker 4: the self help group.

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Speaker 1: Was that an atomic bomb Okay, what God damn it,

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Speaker 1: are you living in a cartoon? What is okay? Quick?

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Speaker 1: Before they do it again.

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Speaker 4: Today, she's going to tell us about how she first

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Speaker 4: joined the self help group that turned out to be

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Speaker 4: a sex cult, and how it began with a comment

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Speaker 4: by Mark Vicente that shook her worldview. She'll explain why

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Speaker 4: she was drawn to the goal oriented framework and what

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Speaker 4: it meant to be at cause, and she will do

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Speaker 4: the exercises on me and Megan.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 5: She'll explain how this was a tool of manipulation to

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Speaker 5: deflect from the group's wrongdoings, how she felt starstruck when

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Speaker 5: she first met Keith Rnery, who claimed to be the

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Speaker 5: smartest man in the world, and we'll touch on his

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Speaker 5: idea of spiritual wives and how that may have been

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Speaker 5: a concept stolen from Lola's mom's prophet Dun dun dum.

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Speaker 1: We'll see.

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Speaker 4: And next week we will get into her later years

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Speaker 4: in the group and doss and how she left.

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Speaker 1: But for now, Megan, my dear co host, what is

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Speaker 1: your cultiest thing of the week?

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Speaker 5: Okay, mine's a little bit silly this week. Sometimes they're dark,

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Speaker 5: sometimes they're silly. This one leans a little bit more

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Speaker 5: on the silly side. But actually, the more I think

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Speaker 5: about it, it could have been dark.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Okay.

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Speaker 5: So in the high control group I grew up in,

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Speaker 5: there wasn't a ton of young people, right, So you

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Speaker 5: would have to travel out of state, sometimes even out

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Speaker 5: of the country to meet people that were your age

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Speaker 5: that you could marry because you're not allowed to marry

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Speaker 5: outside of the group that weren't your cousins.

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Speaker 1: Right, huh, yes, makes sense. Yes, you're pausing.

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Speaker 5: You understand that you can't marry your cousins, correct, Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 5: So we would usually be meeting at these conventions, which

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Speaker 5: were just very long church days where we would all

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Speaker 5: like stand the women's barn and the men's burn and

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Speaker 5: people would like stay awake to make sure none mingled.

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Speaker 5: Preachers would say from the pulpit, like we are not

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Speaker 5: here to see or be seen, and it's like, bitch,

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Speaker 5: how the hell do you think we're going to find

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Speaker 5: somebody to marry if we're not trying to look our

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Speaker 5: best with our fish tail braids, and I yeah, you know,

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Speaker 5: like sorry if my jean skirt is a little form fitting,

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Speaker 5: you know what I mean? Like I'm trying to cook here,

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Speaker 5: not literally cook, I can't cook, but I'm trying to.

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Speaker 1: Find my husband. Okay, yeah, because that used to be

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Speaker 1: the gold.

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Speaker 5: Now cut to I move to Los Angeles, a very

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Speaker 5: far place away from where I was raised, and there's

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Speaker 5: a whole new world of people, complete and utter strangers,

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Speaker 5: and a lot of them were doing exciting things out here,

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Speaker 5: like a being in the talkies.

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Speaker 1: You know, sure, yeah, that's what we do.

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Speaker 5: We weren't allowed to have TV growing up, so like, whoa,

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Speaker 5: you're in the thing?

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Speaker 1: Like cool?

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Speaker 5: So I started running around with the crowd that were

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Speaker 5: in the entertainment industry. Who cares whatever. I had a

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Speaker 5: little bit of a crush on one of them. Who cares.

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Speaker 5: Never hooked up at all. I did have him on

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Speaker 5: my penterrest board at one point because I thought he

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Speaker 5: was cute and something great, No big deal. A couple

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Speaker 5: months ago, we're at a wedding. Everyone's like, you should

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Speaker 5: hook up with him. I'm like, I don't. He's just

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Speaker 5: not going to fall in love with me and be

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Speaker 5: obsessed with me, So like, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't want that journey for me. Correct.

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Speaker 5: So then I go home. A couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 5: and I'm looking at my ancestry book. Guess who's my cousin? No, yes,

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Speaker 5: guess who is my freaking cousin? Oh my god, this man,

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Speaker 5: this man, this man, this man. So it's not like

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Speaker 5: for a street I don't even know. It's like a

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Speaker 5: very thick book. And it just said his name and

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Speaker 5: his date of birth and how we were related to

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Speaker 5: this family. And I was like, surely he's not from Missouri.

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Speaker 5: All my family's from Missouri.

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Speaker 1: Look it up.

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Speaker 5: He's from Missouri. So it's just it's just funny. What

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Speaker 5: the hell?

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Speaker 1: So you almost married your cousin, is what you're telling me?

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: What I'm saying is that I almost slept with my

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Speaker 5: cousin and got my feelings hurt.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you didn't. Thank you. What what about you?

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Speaker 1: What's your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 4: I'm just seeing this news story, which I guess isn't new, uh,

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Speaker 4: but but it is not about it.

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Speaker 1: But it is news, but not new new. It's from January.

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Speaker 4: There's an article on CBS News called their twenty one

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Speaker 4: kids were taken by the state. Now they're fighting for

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Speaker 4: custody of even more surrogate born Babies. This is written

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Speaker 4: by Kara Tabachnik, Katrina Kaufman, and Graham Kates.

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Speaker 1: So it's about this couple in Los.

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Speaker 4: Angeles that have this huge mansion that started getting surrogates

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Speaker 4: to bear children for them from Facebook marketplace, Yes, like

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Speaker 4: on Facebook to like have their babies. And the people

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Speaker 4: were told that it was going to go to couples

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Speaker 4: who don't have any kids, or only have one kid

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Speaker 4: or something, when in reality there wasn't Actually it wasn't

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Speaker 4: a surrogacy company. It was just them and they were

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Speaker 4: just keeping all the kids themselves. So they have a

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Speaker 4: couple dozen kids in this home and what seems to

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Speaker 4: have been going on behind closed doors is very alarming,

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Speaker 4: it says. Records show police responded to at least three

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Speaker 4: dozen calls to the couple's mansion in less than four years,

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Speaker 4: including noise complaints related to verbal altercations, an anonymous call

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Speaker 4: alleging child abuse, and there's like surveillance footage all of

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Speaker 4: these kids, regardless of gender, have their heads shaved, are

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Speaker 4: being physically punished like a toddler, is being made to

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Speaker 4: do squats, and it says the neighbors spoke of seeing

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Speaker 4: young children being potty trained in a single line in

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Speaker 4: the couple's backyard. It just sounds like this really horrifying

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Speaker 4: military esque cult where they're like raising these kids, like

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Speaker 4: I don't understand what the goal would be, Like why

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Speaker 4: do you want all of these children that you're going

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Speaker 4: to treat this way?

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Speaker 5: Like I don't understand, right, And they're lying to the

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Speaker 5: surrogates as well. Yeah, yeah, that's an extra layer of

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Speaker 5: deception that just makes me think, what are y'all doing?

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Speaker 1: What are they doing?

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Speaker 4: Like are they trying to build an army of some kind,

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Speaker 4: like an army of God?

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Speaker 1: You know, like that's what it's giving. I don't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, most babies don't have to do squats?

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Speaker 4: Why or is a two year old doing squats? Anyway,

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Speaker 4: It's all really really horrifying and alarming. But I did

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Speaker 4: not know about this case, at least not in depth.

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Speaker 4: So that's my cultiest thing.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure more will be revealed about their intentions, and

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Speaker 5: I'm very curious as to if this had a name

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Speaker 5: and if this was an organized religion so to speak.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, we don't know that today, do we No,

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Speaker 5: we don't, we don't. What we do know is that

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Speaker 5: Sarah gave us the interview of a lifetime and we're

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Speaker 5: going to jump on into it.

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Speaker 1: Let's jump, let's go.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Sarah Edmondson to trust me. Finally, thank you for

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Speaker 4: joining us.

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Speaker 1: Such a treat.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's been about like, well since we

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Speaker 3: started our pods, which is five years since we started,

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Speaker 3: we've been trying to do this because you guys have

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Speaker 3: been around the same time.

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Speaker 4: Right before five years, Yeah, it was like it's a

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Speaker 4: little over. Yeah, it was like late twenty twenty. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: I feel like y'all are our companion podcasts and we've

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Speaker 4: just never done the crossover, which is wild.

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Speaker 3: And let me say this officially that you should definitely

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Speaker 3: come a little bit culty and I apologize that hasn't

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Speaker 3: happened sooner, So lease make.

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Speaker 1: This the official invite. Yeah, yeah, wonderful, great, perfect book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah all right, so.

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Speaker 4: Much to get into with you, because you have two books,

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Speaker 4: and we would love to talk a bit about the

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Speaker 4: content of both of them, maybe kind of at the

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Speaker 4: same time.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 4: First, the first book you wrote called Scarred, and it

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Speaker 4: is about your experiences in Nexium under Keith Rinieri. And

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Speaker 4: then your most recent book with your husband and podcast

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Speaker 4: co host based on your podcast is called A little

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Speaker 4: Bit Culty.

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Speaker 1: And that is more of a just like a guide

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Speaker 1: to colts.

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Speaker 4: Sarah, can you start us at the beginning of your

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Speaker 4: journey and that first comment that Mark may that was

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Speaker 4: your entry point into Naxium in terms.

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Speaker 1: Of inviting me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, where where were you at in your life and

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Speaker 4: how did you end up going with him?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and thanks thanks for that lovely introduction. I wrote

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Speaker 3: Scard so that people would see the whole journey in

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Speaker 3: and out. And then the second one is more of

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Speaker 3: a resource like a handbook, which I struggled with when

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Speaker 3: I was writing Scard because all along the way and

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Speaker 3: be like and this is called love bumbing and this

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Speaker 3: is called isolation. I kind of steered away from doing that,

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Speaker 3: so I'm not going to do both. And what would

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Speaker 3: have been happening in that initial conversation with Mark was

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Speaker 3: my hook, what hooked me into nexim. Although he didn't

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Speaker 3: Mark didn't know about what was going on behind closed door.

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Speaker 1: Of course he was. He was just also recently found

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Speaker 1: Nexium and was very excited about it. And then he

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Speaker 1: met me, and I.

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Speaker 3: Was a lot of things as a struggling actress looking

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Speaker 3: for meeting and community and purpose. So my boyfriend at

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Speaker 3: the time, and this is kind of a trying to

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Speaker 3: accordion this story. There's a lot of things going on,

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Speaker 3: but my boyfriend at the time was a filmmaker. He

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Speaker 3: got into a film festival at the Spiritual Cinema Circle

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Speaker 3: Festival at Sea, So it was all these spiritualists, people

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Speaker 3: who were making films who were trying to, you know,

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Speaker 3: shift consciousness. I'd seen with The Bleep, which I really loved,

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Speaker 3: and we met Mark for Senta were we sat with

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Speaker 3: him at dinner and I had a really bad cough.

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Speaker 1: I was sick at the.

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Speaker 3: Time, and he had basically asked me what would you

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Speaker 3: lose if you stop coughing? And helped me through this

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Speaker 3: sort of like informal you know, Schmorgas board of Nexium

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Speaker 3: Tools didn't know this at the time. Helped me see

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Speaker 3: that I had, through my wiring or my programming, linked

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Speaker 3: sickness with getting love and sort of flashed back through

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Speaker 3: times in my life where like my mom had been

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Speaker 3: sick and I had to get her full attention, I

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Speaker 3: had to be sick and it was this huge sort

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Speaker 3: of aha for me, and that was just like one

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Speaker 3: of many conversations that I had with Mark, and this

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Speaker 3: is over a dinner.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this is just yeah, okay. So Mark is the

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Speaker 5: director of What the bleep Do We Know? And it

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Speaker 5: is a very big influence on my life back in

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Speaker 5: the day. I'm you know, a very spiritual movie about

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Speaker 5: it's kind of like The Secret to point out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, came before The Secret, but it was in that world, right,

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Speaker 3: and I think now it would be dated, but at

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Speaker 3: the time it was quite groundbreaking and basically having people

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Speaker 3: recognize that, like, you know, your mindset does affect how

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Speaker 3: you perceive the world essentially, like quantum physics, spirituality, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I loved it when I was young. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I also was like whoa yeah, yeah, So to meet

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Speaker 4: this man who made this groundbreaking movie that everybody was

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Speaker 4: talking about, I have to imagine add some weight to

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Speaker 4: whatever he's saying to you in that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean it had it come from somebody that didn't like

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Speaker 3: already have on a pedestal, it might not have affected

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Speaker 3: me in the same way. In fact, you know, many

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Speaker 3: other people had invited me to a two thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: five day training to you know, work through my limiting

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Speaker 3: beliefs and be more successful.

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Speaker 1: I might not have done it.

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Speaker 3: I probably would wouldn't have done it, but having come

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Speaker 3: from Mark and it wasn't just about like doing the

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Speaker 3: five day for my own growth. It was like, you know,

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Speaker 3: this is an opportunity to be working with a group

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Speaker 3: of people like actual humanitarians changing the world, big red flag.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: It seemed really exciting and it was glamorous, and it

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Speaker 3: was meaningful, and it seemed to fill a lot of

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Speaker 3: the buckets purposeful, yeah, versus the sort of the acting

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Speaker 3: opportunities I'd had up until that point.

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Speaker 4: I'm curious now, like, after all of this processing you've

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Speaker 4: been doing, having so many conversations about dynamics like this,

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Speaker 4: do you still believe that question about essentially it's your

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Speaker 4: choice to be coughing? And oh, it's like I have

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Speaker 4: chosen to be sick, Like do you still Yeah? Where

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Speaker 4: do we land with that? Because I'm still I'm still

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Speaker 4: kind of there.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like it's choice, but I do feel.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think we have lots of choices, but

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Speaker 3: with that particular thing around sickness, I think it's really

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Speaker 3: tricky and I would never want to say what it

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Speaker 3: is for anybody else, but I do think that I

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Speaker 3: still do have a sort of fundamental belief that our

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Speaker 3: upbringing is our programming, and so if you learn that

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Speaker 3: you can get care.

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Speaker 1: When you're sick.

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Speaker 3: It's not a conscious thing like, oh, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: make myself sick, my parents pay attention to me. But

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Speaker 3: I certainly see that out in the world, and I,

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Speaker 3: you know, I see it with my kids, and I

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Speaker 3: not that exact thing, but like I see how they

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Speaker 3: learn something and then they repeat the pattern, and then

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Speaker 3: the body learns to repeat the pattern. Side of how

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Speaker 3: I see it, I don't think it's like an active

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Speaker 3: choice to cough and then get atten, but I mean,

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Speaker 3: and and of course not all coughs are hypochondrical or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's the right word.

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Speaker 3: But I do see some cases where, you know, people

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Speaker 3: use sickness to get attention, and when you look at

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Speaker 3: like munchosen by proxy and those types of things, and

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Speaker 3: people who fake cancer to raise money, like that's extreme.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, I don't know. I think there's a wide.

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Speaker 3: Range, but I'm still trying to figure out, like what

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Speaker 3: my beliefs are around these things. I'm not anti spiritual

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Speaker 3: or anti personal growth, although I was for maybe a

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Speaker 3: couple years.

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Speaker 1: When I first got out. But I'm open. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Whenever I don't like speak my truth, I lose my voice.

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Speaker 5: Whenever somebody is like kind of walking all over me,

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Speaker 5: I will physically lose my voice.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic, that's a real thing.

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Speaker 4: I used to feel sick anytime I would have like

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Speaker 4: a performance coming up.

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Speaker 1: Then suddenly I would have a sickness. But but I

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Speaker 1: don't know why. I just laughed at that.

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Speaker 4: I'm horrible, But I mean, you know, I'm sure most

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Speaker 4: cops are just real coughs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, of course, the most copts are real cops.

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Speaker 1: Most cops are real cops. Did he talk you out

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Speaker 1: of your cough? Well, it did get better.

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Speaker 3: But I think what was really just more whatever what

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Speaker 3: causes what? I think what was more helpful for me

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Speaker 3: to know or realize about myself, Like it's just a

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Speaker 3: level of self awareness that in that relationship, I didn't

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Speaker 3: feel like I was getting enough attention, that's for sure.

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Speaker 3: Like that's whether I needed it actually or it is

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Speaker 3: my own an issue or whatever, Like I was feeling

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Speaker 3: needy with your.

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Speaker 4: Partner at the time, who you were there partner at

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Speaker 4: the time. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so this

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Speaker 4: influential wise seeming man helps you have this immediate insight

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Speaker 4: into this pattern in your life. So can you walk

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Speaker 4: us through how you actually start going to the seminars

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Speaker 4: and what they're like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it turned out, and of course I thought

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Speaker 3: this was serendipity, and maybe it was that there was

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Speaker 3: the first training in Tacoma, Washington, which is just south

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Speaker 3: of Vancouver, a few weeks later, and so I decided

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Speaker 3: with my boyfriend at the time, who's David in my book,

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Speaker 3: and we're still friends and we're all good now and

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Speaker 3: we laugh about it, but hey, we were to call together,

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Speaker 3: but we decided to do it together.

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Speaker 1: And there's a number of things that happened.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how much detail you wanted me to

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Speaker 3: go into, but basically, like, there was a forty eight

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Speaker 3: hour discount. I signed up this paper to get the discount,

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Speaker 3: and then before the training, I tried to get out

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Speaker 3: of it because you know, I'm an actor living in

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Speaker 3: a basement suite and it's so expensive, and I basically

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Speaker 3: get gas lit and strong armed by somebody who'd never

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Speaker 3: met before, who spoiler alert later teaches me to do

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Speaker 3: the same thing to other people to get them to

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Speaker 3: join sales and basically helps me see that I'm I

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Speaker 3: think my exact line was something like, you know, at

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Speaker 3: we'll have to be available for my agent and auditioning.

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Speaker 3: And they said, you're twenty seven and you're going to

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Speaker 3: be just waiting by the phone, Like what are you

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Speaker 3: going to be the master of your own destiny?

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Speaker 1: How long does that?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: God?

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Speaker 3: Which is such a good one, And other things are

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Speaker 3: on money and you know, like why don't you have

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Speaker 3: any money?

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Speaker 1: You're you're an adult, just blaming, blaming for you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and so many twenty seven year olds are rich,

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Speaker 4: not were you?

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Speaker 1: Just were you?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: Were you encouraged to just put it on a credit card? Yes?

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Speaker 3: I put on a credit card, which is exactly what

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Speaker 3: I did, And then I went to the training and

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Speaker 3: it's like a whole other chapter of Scarred. But the

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Speaker 3: long and short of it is that it was there

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Speaker 3: were so many red flags from the beginning, like if

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Speaker 3: I had this education, you know, if I'd read this book,

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't I probably wouldn't have even signed up, or

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Speaker 3: I would have balked at the price, or I would

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Speaker 3: have like been like, oh, you know, you're pressuring me,

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Speaker 3: or you're using like scarcity tactics.

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Speaker 1: Try sign up, like I know all the things now.

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Speaker 3: But had I still signed up, I definitely wouldn't have

385
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Speaker 3: stayed past probably the first class, definitely not past day one.

386
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Speaker 3: But they were very good at preempting people and preparing

387
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Speaker 3: us to feel uncomfortable, which means it's a sign of

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Speaker 3: pushing up against her limitations and where there were there

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Speaker 3: to grow. And it's a success program and successful people

390
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 3: know how to face their limitations. So if you feel uncomfortable,

391
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 3: then great, we're we're on something right. So I was

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Speaker 3: feeling really uncomfortable and also not wanting to There's a

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Speaker 3: lot of things I didn't want. Its point Mark, I

394
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Speaker 3: didn't want to lose my twenty one to sixty. I

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Speaker 3: you know, I wanted to be open.

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Speaker 1: And Mark had said to me, it's like the first

397
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Speaker 1: couple of days are weird and then it gets amazing

398
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Speaker 1: and just you know, trust the process. So I did.

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Speaker 1: I trusted the process.

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Speaker 4: For the youth who maybe have not heard of next.

401
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 4: Sometimes young people will be like what's next, Tom, And

402
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Speaker 4: I'm like, what.

403
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: Can you just like have they been living under a ruck? Seriously?

404
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: Have you?

405
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Speaker 4: Can you just like give an overview of like what

406
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Speaker 4: they were marketing it as, Yes, what we thought it was.

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00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess think the closest that.

408
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Speaker 3: It would be if people don't know what it is,

409
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 3: is like kind of like a Tony Robbin seminar, but

410
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Speaker 3: much smaller. So somebody at the front of the stage

411
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Speaker 3: is what it's called an algat. I'm sure you know

412
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Speaker 3: this large group awareness training where we were meant to

413
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Speaker 3: basically join a community where we could look at our

414
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 3: our limitations and it was basically therapy, although we weren't

415
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 3: allowed to use that word, but look at our limiting

416
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 3: beliefs and figure out how to evolve them to be

417
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Speaker 3: the best versions of ourselves. Another term for it in

418
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Speaker 3: once you were sort of more in was the science

419
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Speaker 3: of joy.

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Speaker 1: Also big red flag. Yeah and yeah.

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Speaker 3: So as a community of humanitarians trying to change the

422
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Speaker 3: world by evolving our disintegrations, which is any area of.

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Speaker 1: God.

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Speaker 3: It's so hard to go back to this vernacular like

425
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Speaker 3: beliefs that weren't aligned with reality.

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Speaker 1: So an example of a disintegration would be and this

427
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Speaker 1: is I think a very common thing that does exist

428
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Speaker 1: in the world is people say, for example, like wanting

429
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Speaker 1: to make money but also believing that money is the

430
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Speaker 1: root of all evil, So like wanting it but thinking

431
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Speaker 1: it's bad causes sort of like issues internally around money.

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Speaker 4: So that would be I am a maximum disintegration sense.

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Speaker 5: You know, that's a word that I would be like,

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Speaker 5: I get that, that makes sense. There's so many things

435
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 5: that if that makes sense to me, so yes, I

436
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 5: would be like interesting, interesting, Yeah, And.

437
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 3: That's what the first five day was like, was a

438
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Speaker 3: bunch of conversations around money and honesty and value and

439
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 3: work and self esteem and your motions. So those even

440
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Speaker 3: though the first few days were weird, by day three

441
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Speaker 3: I was like, this is really fascinating. I've never talked

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Speaker 3: about the difference between jealousy and envy.

443
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 1: One is good and one is bad. By the way,

444
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 1: because you didn't know, oh and these bad. Jealousy is good? Yes?

445
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 3: Oh do you get a stripe on your sash?

446
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 5: What were you like being like early wake up calls?

447
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 5: Not a ton of food, Like was that stuff already

448
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 5: starting in the training?

449
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: No? Okay, that came later.

450
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 3: I mean I think that what was already set up

451
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 3: from the beginning was long hours. So we started I

452
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 3: think at eight and then went till after dinner, Like

453
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 3: we didn't get home in a bed till ten. So

454
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: it's just like long, long days and slight control of

455
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 3: like eating, right, we're supposed to eat on the brakes.

456
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,959
Speaker 3: So they would say, like, just try not to go

457
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 3: to the bathroom and eat during the breaks, because you're

458
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 3: covering up your feelings eating or flirting or drinking or

459
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: in to the bathroom, you're you're running away from whatever

460
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 3: is you need to look at.

461
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: So they it wasn't they were doing harsh control. It's

462
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: almost like Keith Ranieri, the head of Nexium, a founder,

463
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: had looked at things like Scientology and maybe esked Landmark

464
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: Forum and saw what was extreme and what didn't work

465
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: and sort of like dialed it back a little bit.

466
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 3: So it was really easy to say, well, of course,

467
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 3: you know, we're not going to stop you from eating

468
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 3: if you have low blushure' going neat, but we're just

469
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 3: encouraging you not to because you're not going to get

470
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 3: to the root of the things if you're you know,

471
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 3: smothering your feelings with chips or whatever, which also has

472
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:09,479
Speaker 3: truth to it.

473
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, smart, smart, Yeah, yeah, which would work.

474
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: I'd be like, well, I don't want to be the

475
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 4: only one who's covering my feelings up. Yeah, I can't

476
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 4: do that. I want to be the best student. Lola

477
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 4: would have been right by your side at every step.

478
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

479
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 5: Fully you you all remind me a lot of each other.

480
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 5: And are I mean, what do you think made you

481
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 5: so valuable to Nexium?

482
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 3: Well, and I'm curious though if you relate to this

483
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 3: or maybe we have to save your answers when you

484
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: come on our podcast.

485
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: But I think that there's a couple of.

486
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 3: Things I was valuable in that I you know, it

487
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 3: was very sociable as I was, you know, butterfly social butterfly,

488
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 3: So I had a lot of friends. I was very

489
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 3: well connected in the film industry in Vancouver. And I've

490
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: also been like since as long as I can remember,

491
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,719
Speaker 3: kind of I don't want to say good at sales,

492
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: but like I used to do garage sales.

493
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 1: I used to sell jewelry and hair wraps in the nineties.

494
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: I sold the most Rainforest crunch bars to raise money

495
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: for our school TV in tenth grade. Like, I was

496
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 3: just kind of entrepreneurial selly in that way, like whatever

497
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 3: I was into, I was very good at sharing it

498
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 3: and telling people to do it with me, you know,

499
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 3: YOA so that kind of thing. Like so that's a

500
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 3: natural trait I think that I had. But then I

501
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 3: also was a people I still we're still in the

502
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 3: ongoing process of people pleaser, A bit of a fauner.

503
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 3: I like to feel special, and so I don't know

504
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 3: how you know, calculated that was on their part, but

505
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: they certainly made me feel special, gave, you know, promoted

506
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 3: me very quickly. So I was sort of like, oh,

507
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: I got my first sash and I got my first stripe,

508
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: and then I'm that's the stripe path, which means I'm growing,

509
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 3: and especially as an actor, where it's like, you know,

510
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 3: you can throw spaghetti at the wall, you don't know

511
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 3: why you got apart or didn't get apart, and then

512
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 3: now all of a sudden, I was I had a

513
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: measurable path for my growth.

514
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 5: At karate or stripe path is genius because as soon

515
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 5: as you graduate college, just like, wait, how do I

516
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 5: measure anything? Like everyone feels that way, You're just unless

517
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 5: you join the military or something and you're like, what

518
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 5: the steps?

519
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: So then to just be like these are the stripes.

520
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 4: It's like I almost feel that way about the Mormon

521
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 4: conception of heaven as well, because in so many religions

522
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 4: it's like really vague how you get to heaven and

523
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 4: what the sin is and what the sin is you know,

524
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 4: and like when you're being a good person. But in

525
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 4: Mormonism it's so specific. It's like you have to go

526
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 4: to the temple and you must become temple worthy and

527
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 4: you get married in the temple and you know, like

528
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 4: the steps are so specific to get to the oh

529
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 4: yeah that you want to get in do so doable.

530
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 4: So it makes the world controllable. It makes it like,

531
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 4: you know, there's a clear system for how everything works,

532
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 4: as opposed to you know, the reality that everything is chaos.

533
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true.

534
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: And I think if the if you know, if the

535
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 3: stripe path was what was what it said it was,

536
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 3: it would have been brilliant. Like there is nothing in

537
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: the therapeutic world that really measures your results, you know,

538
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 3: they test, they don't test for that, and they're like

539
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 3: are you happier?

540
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: Like could you do this before?

541
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 3: And like if it's something you can't do and now

542
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 3: you can do it, then that's a sign of like

543
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 3: it's a success, right, executive success programs.

544
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: So that was the whole idea.

545
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 3: I was like, there's nothing else like it otherre It

546
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 3: turns out it was a lie, But if it was true,

547
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 3: it would have been great.

548
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 4: I mean, were there things that because you know, so

549
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 4: many of these guys just pull from like you were saying,

550
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 4: just like pull from other programs and therapeutic modalities and

551
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 4: stuff like, was there stuff that was being used or

552
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 4: taught that you think had some value to it because

553
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 4: it was rooted in this like other thing.

554
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 5: One hundred percent. And that's been a huge part of

555
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 5: my healing journey. On the other side is figuring out

556
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 5: what you know, tool I like and still like and

557
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 5: where is it from?

558
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: Like I have this massive whiteboard on my wall over

559
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: here of all.

560
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 4: My goals and stuff in categories. That's something I learned

561
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 4: Inexium did Keith event the whiteboard? No, right, I did not,

562
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 4: but I learned it there. And he also didn't invent

563
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 4: goal setting, right right. There's some tweaks to it that

564
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 4: I think were sort of unique to him, but I

565
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 4: think he pulled He was really like a whole schmorgasboard

566
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 4: of all sorts of different things, and some of the

567
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 4: things I think are more rooted in like proper therapy.

568
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 4: Some things are like directly stolen from Buddhist tenants.

569
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: Up until recently, I was very clear that it was like, oh,

570
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 3: it's great because it's you know, this part is based

571
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: on NLP, so that's safe. And then and I saw

572
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 3: that you had Alice Hines on. Yeah, you did have

573
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: Alice right from me dabs making that up. Yeah, So

574
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 3: like part of Nancy Salesman, the second in command to Keith,

575
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: her whole shtick was like she trained under Bandler and Griddler,

576
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: who were NLP practitioners, and then she got what she

577
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 3: could from them, and then she met Keith and worked

578
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: with him. Then I find out that from Alice and

579
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 3: that investigative podcast that you know, those two were super

580
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 3: sketch as well.

581
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: So I mean, don't get her started.

582
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 3: Very I mean, I have a whole new perspective now

583
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: about it. And that's what Tony Robbins uses as well,

584
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 3: and that's you know, I think that's hugely problematic. And

585
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: there's lots of other things about him that we can

586
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 3: get into, but yeah, I think that some of the

587
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: like concepts around. Okay, you know, if I'm tired, for example,

588
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 3: and I need to be on this podcast, I can

589
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 3: change my state and be more up and like have

590
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: control over that.

591
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: That's great, that's helpful.

592
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: I need that as a parent, and I need that

593
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 3: for podcasting and for acting like that's a really cool

594
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: tool to have. The bad part of it is that

595
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: if I'm feeling kind of upset about something, I can

596
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: override it. I can spiritually bypass it and be you know,

597
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 3: everything's fine. There are toxic positivity like every call you've

598
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: ever looked at, right, So there's I think there's good

599
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 3: and bad elements of a lot of those things, including NLP,

600
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: And that's been part of my process is like what's good,

601
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 3: what's bad?

602
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: Where'd it come from? Who started it? Are they a jail? Yeah?

603
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 4: I noticed in Scarred that you used the term spiritual

604
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 4: wives in reference to how Keith you know, talked about

605
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: his coerced sexual partners, and I had never Maybe I

606
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 4: just didn't remember, but I guess I didn't know that

607
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 4: that term was used.

608
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: And are you are you.

609
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 4: Familiar with my mom's interactions with Keith like prenexium, yes,

610
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 4: and how he like, I'm pretty sure he ripped that

611
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 4: from my cult leader because that was what my guy,

612
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 4: my the prophet that I believed and told my mom

613
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 4: about the fact that he had multiple quote wives aka

614
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 4: women that he was coersively, you know, sleeping with, and

615
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: then Keith was like, my mom was like talking to

616
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 4: Keith about it, and Keith is like, oh, he's a

617
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 4: scam artist, he's a scam artist whatever, whatever. And then

618
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 4: meanwhile Keith goes and lifts that language and uses it

619
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 4: years later for an Nexium, which I just thought was

620
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 4: so crazy.

621
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 5: Keith is the all time, Like, I'm just constantly shocking

622
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 5: odd by how sociopathic this man is. Absolutely, it's wild

623
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 5: and sidebar, I was texting with.

624
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: Your mom, so weird to say, I was texting with

625
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: your mom ask her to come on the show. And

626
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know this, but like, I've

627
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: been in touch with her since we got out of

628
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 3: NEXI him. I totally lost touch with her for years,

629
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 3: I guess while she was making that doc.

630
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, so I didn't even know she was doing that.

631
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: So that's how out of touch i'd been.

632
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, she was the first person to tell me

633
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 3: that Keith had been basically coercing women to like engage

634
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: in a contractual non monogamy in one way, but monogamous

635
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: in the other way. So basically they had to be

636
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: monogamous to him and not vice versa.

637
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 5: Right, And it's incredible and we'll get to it later

638
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 5: how he kept that secret from people, Like there'd be

639
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 5: multiple women myself, yes, thinking I'm his spiritual life and

640
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 5: woman who's also a spiritual life all day long, and

641
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 5: neither of you disclosed that you're a spiritual life. It's

642
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 5: just like, yeah, it's very, very fascinating stuff.

643
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: Yes, And I didn't learn about that term, just to

644
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: say real quickly, I didn't learn about spiritual wives until

645
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 3: after we left. So I had heard after we after

646
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: we laughed, blew the whistle, and then everything started to

647
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 3: come out.

648
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: That's when I heard. I think it was the first

649
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: person I heard. What was Alison Mack telling one of

650
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: the other girls how excited she was that they were

651
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: going to be spiritual wives together. That was the first time.

652
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd heard the her term harem, but not spiritual wives.

653
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that's that's a big jump from harm to

654
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 5: spiritual wife.

655
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's a jolt it's a bit of a rebrand.

656
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 4: That's a rebrand pun intended. Yeah, oh no, it's okay.

657
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: No, No, I'm very fine.

658
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 4: I was reading We're just bawling on a treadmill, like

659
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 4: because I I it's so good.

660
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

661
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: We both just laughed and then it hit us. Oh no,

662
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: it's okay. You're more fresh in it because you've just

663
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: read it. I'm nine years out.

664
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 3: My husband, who I wish that he could you could

665
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: be here, because then we'd really be laughing like we

666
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: are together because we had we've laughed and that's the

667
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 3: only reason that we've been able to get.

668
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: Through it, because otherwise it's just too hard. It's honestly,

669
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: and I, yeah, that's really we laugh away. Yeah, I mean,

670
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: how how else do you not go? Bye?

671
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 5: So how did you first meet Keith in person?

672
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: And what was your impression? Yeah? So I did my

673
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: first five day in Sorry, I just realized I said

674
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: earlier that it was in Tacoma. The school was in Tacoma.

675
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: They happened to be doing one in Vancouver.

676
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 3: Where I lived, so that's that's why I was there.

677
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: I realized earlier I said Tacoma. It was in Vancouver.

678
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,239
Speaker 3: That was in June, and then I got we got

679
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: invited David and I got invited to go back to

680
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: finish the sixteen during training, so only to the five days,

681
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: so finish the eleven day in August, and that would

682
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: roll right into Vanguard Week, so v Week. And I

683
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: believe that I met Keith in my eleven day at

684
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: some point in that time. I don't know specifics because

685
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: I didn't keep track of it, but we went to volleyball,

686
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: David and I and the class was invited to go

687
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: to volleyball, and that's when I believe the first time

688
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 3: I met him, and he was playing volleyball and at

689
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: some point help court, like on the court and people

690
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: would ask questions, and I think that there's a snippet

691
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: of that actually in the vow you'll see a very

692
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: young Sarah with a velvet like juicy couture knockoff tracksuit

693
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: and glasses meeting Ethanary and looking a little like starstruck.

694
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: Because I was.

695
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: I was in awe for sure, like I had a

696
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: lot of respect for him, but I was also really

697
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: uncomfortable around him, and I didn't know why. I just

698
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 3: and and for many years was and I kind of

699
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: chalked that up to like my own disintegrations. I don't

700
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: my inauthenticity. And he's so like because when he and I.

701
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: Know, you know about the gazing, the eye gazing, like

702
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: he just really saw you and it was it was confronting,

703
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, so, but also like I think my internal

704
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: radar was like gross, right right, you know.

705
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: Wow, the gazing just made me think of a man

706
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 4: and I dated.

707
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: And how well that worked on me?

708
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, because you probably felt seen and heard I did.

709
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,479
Speaker 1: I did? It was Meank. Should we should we ban gazing? Yeah?

710
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: No gazing allowed. I think gazing is banned. Avoid eye contact.

711
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 1: It's a road.

712
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 5: No more gazing. Okay, nope, it's not working. Can you

713
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 5: just really quickly tell us what Vanguard Week is?

714
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Vanguard Week. So I went to twelve of them

715
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 3: in a row. It conflicts with Burning Man if you

716
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 3: ever want to go, Yeah, you don't want to miss

717
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 3: that one or the other. Yeah, in August, and you

718
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: know it started off it really it changed from two

719
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 3: thousand and five to my last one in twenty sixteen

720
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 3: because the person running it was changed. But at the

721
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 3: beginning it was really quite fun and beautiful. It was

722
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 3: an incredible summer camp at the YMCA in upstate New

723
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: York and Lake George.

724
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've been to Lake George, but

725
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: it's like boating.

726
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: And kayaking, canoeing and hiking and bird watching and it's

727
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 3: just stunning. And it was this Silver Bay it was called,

728
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 3: and we were there for two days.

729
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: And the idea was that so cringe Keith wanted. I mean,

730
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: you can't get him anything for his birthday because he's

731
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: a renunciate. He's he wants nothing, he needs nothing. Ah,

732
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: of course other than so much anyway, but other than that,

733
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: he doesn't need anything.

734
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 3: So he wanted ten days where people could live in

735
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: this ideal way, as you know, not hurting each other,

736
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 3: being kind to each other, non reactivity, being joyful.

737
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: That was the idea.

738
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 3: So there was a lot of dancing and classes and

739
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: workshops and just like summer camp for adults, that's what

740
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: it was the beginning.

741
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 4: Can a non psycho person start like that was the

742
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 4: thought that she was talking. Okay, can we started like

743
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 4: cult survivor summer camp? That's just like, so as soon

744
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 4: as we let one narcissist stend, no narcissist allow, Okay, Okay, okay,

745
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 4: all right.

746
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 3: I would totally I would totally do a retreat for

747
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 3: cult survivors with y'all.

748
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: But it's definitely like we'd have to have a board.

749
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: We'd have to have like a board of.

750
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 3: Twenty people and then to take a narcissist test, like

751
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 3: I don't know, like not be one leader.

752
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to get up on stage. Democratic the

753
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: leader has to be voted on every year. Okay, we're

754
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: cooking with gas here, I can see it. Yeah.

755
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 4: Can you talk about being at cause and when you

756
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 4: learned that idea?

757
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, being at cause, I believe is on day one

758
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: of the first five day training. And the idea is

759
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 3: that you're causing agent in your life and that you

760
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 3: the more responsibility that you can see and that you

761
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 3: can seek, the.

762
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: More potent you are.

763
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 3: And so if something happens and you're I'm just trying

764
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 3: to think of an example, you know, my car gut

765
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: gets robbed or something, being at cause would be to

766
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: like fully own all the decisions that I made to

767
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 3: put myself in that situation.

768
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 4: And what if you did every thing right and you

769
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 4: locked the door and kept it in a safe place

770
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 4: and it still happened. Would you still have to find

771
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 4: a reason to be a cause?

772
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 3: I mean it would be like where at cause really

773
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 3: came into play in the in the curriculum was wasn't

774
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 3: so much something kind of random like that. It was

775
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: more like you'd bring something to the table that was

776
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 3: an upset in your life. I mean, if you want

777
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 3: to give me an example, I can just play with you.

778
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: What it would sound like, sure, yeah, fun, yeah, Okay,

779
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 3: tell me something that like the world is not the

780
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: way you want it to be in some area, I

781
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 3: keep being attracted to the exact same person in different

782
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 3: forms and they're a monster.

783
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: And what do you get out of that?

784
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 5: Probably not having to have real deep intimacy and a

785
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 5: protection from true hurt.

786
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: And what would you lose if you if you actually

787
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: had that true intimacy, a safety net of knowing that

788
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm safe from hurt. Okay, so what are you choosing

789
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: instead then? Safety?

790
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. I haven't done this

791
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: in ten years. I don't really remember the questions to

792
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: I think it.

793
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 5: Was like, it's like a safety I just did it

794
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 5: in my head kind of You're doing a great job.

795
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 5: It's like a safety more important than love. And I'm like,

796
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 5: oh god, no, I feel like yeah something like that. Yeah,

797
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 5: it was actually effective. I was like, damn, yeah, I'm like,

798
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 5: oh love is more important safety?

799
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: What what A like? You just well, now I'm I

800
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: get you're cured. Yeah, now I question. I know, I

801
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: got scared because.

802
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 3: I thought I was going to I couldn't remember, and

803
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 3: then I and I like second guessed myself.

804
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: But that's really sort of what the questions would feel like.

805
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 3: You're kind of digging around in the choices and what

806
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 3: what you.

807
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: Were getting out of.

808
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: Like I remember one of my first ones that I

809
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 3: came to next Tim to work on is I was

810
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: had a really hard time making decisions. Yeah, And somebody

811
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: asked me the question of like I really couldn't even

812
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: get dressed without somebody telling me like what was better

813
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: this or this, or like eating chicken or the fish

814
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 3: and whatever. It was like I couldn't make decisions. And

815
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 3: somebody just asked me, like, what do you get out

816
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 3: of that pattern? And I was like, well, then if

817
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: I if I make a.

818
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: Wrong choice, I can blame whoever told me what to do.

819
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: Was one of the things. Right, I love that right.

820
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 3: So I was like I wasn't owning, so being at

821
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 3: cause would be like I'm owning the fact that I'm

822
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: giving away my responsibility to somebody else and I can

823
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: blame them, which actually lowers my self esteem because then

824
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: I don't actually see who I am and what I

825
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 3: cause in the world.

826
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: Like that's a kind of like annexiom speak for something

827
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: that was actually.

828
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: Helpful for me, right, and I still can kind of

829
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 3: catch myself doing or not doing and think that was helpful.

830
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: But like at cause, if somebody was doing it to

831
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: you in a way that was manipulative and in a

832
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: way that was not helpful, as if you know, it

833
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 3: would sound more like can wait, hold on, I think,

834
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 3: give me another, give me give me some give me

835
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: another something.

836
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 1: Oh, dear turn you ah your turn? Uh uh, I'm

837
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: broke right now. You broke right now? How do you

838
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: author that? How did I how did I? What offer that?

839
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 4: Author that author that that?

840
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: I can't offer anything money.

841
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 4: I spent my money irresponsibly. Okay, Why what were you

842
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 4: going for? I was I was investing in myself in

843
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 4: a project.

844
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: In a project. What were you getting out of the project?

845
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 4: Creative fulfillment and the hope of return on investment.

846
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so what reality?

847
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: What what aspects of cause and effect were you not

848
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: aware of?

849
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: That money goes away and then it's gone.

850
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 2: And isn't necessarily what you think it's gonna be, right right, Yeah,

851
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: So like that was sort of like I was trying

852
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: to be a little bit abrasive because that's sort of

853
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: what it was.

854
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 3: Like if somebody was doing it to you. That was

855
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 3: kind of like it could be really nice, like, so

856
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 3: you know, what what aspects of cause and effect were

857
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 3: you're not aware of?

858
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: Lola m m. Yeah.

859
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 3: And and how do you author That was another way

860
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 3: of saying how do you cause it?

861
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: Like if there's something in your life that's not the

862
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: way you want to be.

863
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: It was always like you caused it, you made choices,

864
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 3: you were not aware of cause and.

865
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: Effect, you avoided data, you ignored data.

866
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 3: There's all these things that we'd help people see about

867
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: how they set it up.

868
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, for some reason, and sometimes that was really helpful.

869
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes in the case of what I just said,

870
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 4: for example, like that is that is correct to like

871
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 4: take responsibility for what the.

872
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: Choices that I made there.

873
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 4: But I can imagine that if that's brought up in

874
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 4: a context that's more nuanced, nuanced and or like talking

875
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 4: about questioning things that are happening in the group. Yeah,

876
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 4: then it can be turned into deflection of responsibility away

877
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 4: from the people in the group and leadership in the group, right, yes, yeah, that.

878
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: Would always be like if you know, if I brought

879
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 3: up you know, hey, like I noticed that we haven't

880
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: paid our commissions in many months, you know, it might

881
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 3: be like, what's going on for you right now that

882
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: you need to bring that up?

883
00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

884
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 5: And you were always accused of like having control issues

885
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 5: and like me, you need to like me issues.

886
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: So they would just which is also partly true. Sure

887
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: that's the thing.

888
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 5: Who doesn't have those two things to some degree, but

889
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 5: they would gaslight you and just be like that that's

890
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 5: because of those issues. Sarah like it, and it worked,

891
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 5: and it would work on me as well. Yeah, because

892
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 5: it was the like me thing, And that's you know,

893
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 5: I'm still on the other side of this, having my

894
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 5: own version of it. I call it more like people

895
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 5: pleasing or fawning, accommodating, you know, having a hard time

896
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 5: saying no. But ironically, that was something that you know,

897
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 5: I have such a vivid memory when my first, I

898
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 5: think it was my first sixteen day that same training

899
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 5: where I met Keith. Nancy elicited what's called your my

900
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 5: life issue, or she'd like you, you'd write up a

901
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 5: series of questions and she's sort of like, and so

902
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 5: basically you blah blah blah blah, but you have to

903
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 5: overcome blah blah blah blah and order like it was

904
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 5: sort of like a summary of all your patterns. And

905
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 5: I so vividly remember her saying, and I don't remember

906
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 5: if this isn't scard or not it should be, but

907
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 5: she basically said, you have a capacity to be great leader,

908
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 5: but we have to stop caring what people think of you.

909
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 5: So basically I have to overcome my like me shit

910
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 5: in order to have an impact in the world, which

911
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 5: I kind of had to do to expose them later.

912
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: Because wow, wow right, and then I meta, that's that's wild. Yeah,

913
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: thanks Nancy.

914
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 4: For listeners who are like, walk us through like where

915
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 4: because you were in there for years, so like, what

916
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 4: actually is happening this whole time prior to dos?

917
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's there's twelve years there.

918
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: That's kind of hard to encapsulate in, never mind a

919
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: ninety minute podcast interview, like a book, anything is so

920
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 3: there's so much going on, and my time there really shifted.

921
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 1: Depending on what rank I was. I think in Scard

922
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: I did it in three chunks.

923
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 3: It was like the beginning where I was like really

924
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: trying to get to the level of which is an

925
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 3: orange sash, and that's when you start getting paid. So

926
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: the first four years I was really working hard to

927
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 3: get to the rank of proctor and open a Vancouver center,

928
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: which I did, and then for those middle four years

929
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 3: things were great. I called it, I think I called

930
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 3: the Golden Years in my book. And you know, it's

931
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: a lot of traveling, a lot of like I flew

932
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 3: on the Bronfman jet to Alaska to run a jenez

933
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: which is the women's only program.

934
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: Who are the Brothmans?

935
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 3: Really quickly the Brofmans are Claire and Sara Brofman are

936
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 3: still are to AIRSS the Seagram Fortune and they were

937
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 3: sort of bank rolling and giving a lot of money

938
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 3: to Naxium to keep it going. And I found out

939
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: later that Keith had lost and I don't remember the

940
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 3: number off the top of my head, but it's like

941
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 3: sixty million or something like that.

942
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: Millions and millions of dollars betting their money on margin?

943
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: Is that the term?

944
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 3: Like he was trying to figure out who's trying to

945
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: figure out the stock market with their money? Oh my god,

946
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: well that's pretty wild for the smartest man alive too

947
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 3: million dollars. That doesn't make sense. Weird, I mean, it's rigged.

948
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: It was rigged.

949
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: Was all Actually One theory is that he was I

950
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 3: don't know the terminology, but something like how you lose

951
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 3: something but it goes somewhere else and then like you

952
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 3: looks like you lost it, but like it's actually going

953
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 3: to like it's an agreement that it's going over here,

954
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: but you get that.

955
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: So it's like he's moving the money offshore or something.

956
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: I don't know.

957
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 5: There's always an answer, there's always.

958
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: Lola.

959
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 5: This is the time of the podcast where you usually

960
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 5: ask me if I would join the group that we discussed,

961
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 5: and sometimes the answer is yes from me. Every sad

962
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 5: feedback online that a lot of the groups that I

963
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 5: would join are cringe.

964
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: That was the word a person used.

965
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, So okay, we're gonna say heat on you this week.

966
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 4: Would you join Nexium? Would you join dot? I mean,

967
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 4: first of all, Nexium is also cringe. They're all cringe

968
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 4: once you actually learn what they are, but you don't

969
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 4: know that at first. Yeah, I would fucking join Nexium. Yeah,

970
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 4: one hundred percent. This is my kind of call. It's

971
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 4: like an ambition call. It's goal oriented. It's like centered

972
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 4: around somebody's intellect, you know, as a non spiritual person,

973
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 4: that's definitely like my you know, weak spot, it's.

974
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: My achilles heel.

975
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, this is going to help you achieve

976
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 4: your goals and you're going to get to the bottom

977
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 4: of things.

978
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 5: And yeah, I ran into a girl this weekend that

979
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 5: we're mutual friends with them. We were like, can she

980
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 5: like stop doing everything?

981
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: But like goal, like, I have too many goals. You're yeah,

982
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 1: it's making us feel bad. Don't worry. I'm really lonely

983
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: and sad, so it's fine. I have no money. Hopefully

984
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: that'll change. Essentially, thank you, You're welcome next da. I'm

985
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: definitely my jam.

986
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 4: Obviously with all of these groups, once we know what's

987
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 4: actually happening in them, then that's no longer the thing

988
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 4: we would want to join. But the way they pull

989
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 4: you in is with these promises, and those are the

990
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 4: types of promises that would get.

991
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: Me for sure?

992
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 4: Would it get you? I'm sure we've talked about it,

993
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 4: but I can't remember.

994
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 5: I think I'm becoming more of a person who would

995
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 5: be gotten by it. But I feel like back in

996
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 5: the day, I would just be like, why would I

997
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 5: want to have more structure.

998
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: In my life? Mmmmm you know? Yeah, you're more of

999
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: a free, free flowing.

1000
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 5: Ray bird, just a very flow and hippie free balling it. Yeah,

1001
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 5: but as I grow older and I'm like, what the

1002
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 5: hell is happening? I want more control and that would

1003
00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 5: probably give me that in spades. I would hate that

1004
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 5: we had to play volleyball all the time, though, and

1005
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 5: I would hat too how late he kept us up,

1006
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 5: and I would hate him, I think, but I would

1007
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 5: like the people in it.

1008
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would get tricked by him, but I think

1009
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 4: I have spoken about the great lengths I have gone

1010
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 4: to in my life to avoid doing physical activities in

1011
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 4: sports I didn't want to do, so I I would

1012
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 4: including moving in with my dad because I didn't want

1013
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 4: to do the diving program in Utah and pretending that

1014
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 4: it was because I wanted to live with my dad,

1015
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 4: but actually it was because I didn't want to dive. Yeah,

1016
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 4: I think I would.

1017
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: The volleyball might keep me away, I don't know.

1018
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 5: And they would play volleyball till like six am, fucking crazy,

1019
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 5: and then he'd be like seven am wake up call.

1020
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 4: I was at a friend's birthday recently and people were

1021
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 4: playing volleyball and it like came near me and I ducked.

1022
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 4: That's my That's what happens when I play. It's terrifying

1023
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 4: to me when a ball comes toward me. And I'll

1024
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 4: just say one last thing.

1025
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 5: One of the things that was very hyped and my

1026
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 5: cult upbringing was volleyball.

1027
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: The kids on the Yeah, the kids on the West Coast.

1028
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 5: Everybody always wanted to go to the West Coast because

1029
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 5: the kids are playing volleyball. But guess what we were

1030
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 5: wearing when we were playing volleyball. Jean skirts on the beach.

1031
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 5: I would love to see that. Okay, So it all

1032
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 5: comes full circle. You writing us five stars as part

1033
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 5: of that circle, you the listener, yeah, not yea, yeah

1034
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 5: not you, No, the listener rating us five stars. Full circle.

1035
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 5: We would so appreciate it. Leave us a comment. Please

1036
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 5: do not write me that I'm cringe anymore. I can't

1037
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 5: take it.

1038
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 4: Please keep telling Megan that she's cringe. Just don't say

1039
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 4: it to me. Our merch is available at exactly rightstore

1040
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 4: dot com if you want to get a cute pink

1041
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 4: hat that says trust Me, or a baby tea, Oh

1042
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 4: go get it.

1043
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 5: I wear my hat a lot and my tea a lot,

1044
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 5: so we could be twinsies. Yeah, some of you might

1045
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 5: like that, some of you might not. But you know what,

1046
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 5: We'll just say, as we always do, remember to follow

1047
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 5: your guts, watch out for red flaggs, and never ever.

1048
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 1: Trust me why.

1049
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 4: This has been an exactly Right production hosted by me Lola.

1050
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 5: Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is ge Holly.

1051
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 4: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1052
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 5: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1053
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 5: is Patrick Kuttner.

1054
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1055
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

1056
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 4: and Daniel Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at

1057
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 4: trust Me Podcast or on TikTok at trust Me coult Podcast.

1058
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 5: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1059
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 5: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1060
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 4: Listen to Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

1061
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts.