WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Allee Willis 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.200 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:08.640 episode was produced by the team at Pandora. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:09.280 What up, y'all? 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.719 This is Liaiah and this week's Quest Love Supreme classic 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:13.800 is all about a true legend. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.280 Her name was Ali Willis. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:18.880 We lost her a couple of years ago, but before that, 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:23.320 she sat down with the Quest and Team Supreme September nineteenth, 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.520 twenty eighteen, as she was also being honored as Songwriter 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.160 of the Year. Yeah, who is this person who has 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.680 the color purple, friends, and earth, wind and fire in common. 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.239 It's Ali Willis and we break it all down this. 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.720 Episode, So listen, learn and celebrate the life of a 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:52.080 really cool lady. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:59.840 Suprema Supreme, Suprema Supremo. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:08.440 Roll Call Supremo, Roll Call Supreme, Suprema roll Call. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.199 I'm slightly out of it. Yeah, I'm a little sick. Yeah, 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:13.759 my favorite of all time. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.080 Yeah. This September my ten was Swift Supreme. 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:23.440 Suprema, roll Call, Supreme, So Supreme. 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.640 Roll my name is Sugar. 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:26.240 Yeah. 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.600 I always wanted to ask how high were you when 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:32.639 you wrote Neutron Dance, Hi. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:40.360 Supreme So SUPREMEA role called Suprema son Son, Suprema roll call. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:46.759 Yeah your up. Yeah, I'm so hyped. Yeah, we're about 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:47.400 to steer it up. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:56.120 Supreme son Son Supreme roll Call, Supreme so SUPREMEO roll. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.440 Called high a Mali. Yeah from the valley. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.280 Oay, I used to land in New York. 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:06.120 I'll take that. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:19.960 Supreme, Supreme Choice, Supreme, Supreme Roll Supreme, Supreme roll. 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:22.040 Wow. Okay. 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:24.560 We were a little scared when we started the theme 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.359 because it was only normally it's like nineteen billion of 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:33.600 us h ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to a very anemic 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.919 Quest Love Supreme. I'm your host, quest Love. The show 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:38.880 must always go on. 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:39.760 Uh. 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:44.000 We're here today with it's Laya and Sugar Steve, hellot 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:44.440 of people. 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.400 I will say that if you know me or if 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.400 you know us well at the Quest Love Supreme, we've 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.280 been here for a year and some change. Uh, then 0:02:56.400 --> 0:03:00.399 you know that we're all about looking under the hood 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.840 to see what's under the surface, and today is no different. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:09.520 Uh quick quick backdrop story. So back in March, when 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:15.079 Taylor Swift pulled a uh a Master three Michelin star 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:21.160 troll move off with their with their where there with 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.520 their cover of the uh the cousin Pete Family Reunion 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.280 barbecue Prouve rendition of September. 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:28.680 Uh. 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.519 Most of us called the uh the raisin Potatoes salt remix, 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:40.560 you know, Uh as expected. Uh, black Twitter was up 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:45.760 in arms because that's what Taylor Swift does well. But 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.480 little did we know that we had a lesson coming 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.480 to us, and so we were most of us were 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:56.920 beyond certain that all the authors of that song, yes, uh, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.680 were the blackest of the black. We just we just 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.880 knew we were spinning up all of our facts and everything, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.760 and I mean we just, yeah, that's that's the barbecue. 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.640 Like to me, that's the blackest song since coming up 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:16.960 the rough side of the Mountain in my opinion. Anyway, 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.120 we just naturally assumed that the authors of the song 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.000 where the members of Earth went and fire, and that 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.520 theory was extinguished quick fast, and uh with the help 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.040 of the University of Google, we quickly discovered that our 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:38.240 guest today has indeed earned her pH D her lifetime 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:43.880 barbecue pass by writing and I don't I don't even 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:48.240 say like classics or hits like she's she's damn near 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.880 written half my memories and some of that. And I'm 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.000 not talking about like the outright hit I'm talking about 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:58.239 like I've never played the game of oh crap. 0:04:58.360 --> 0:04:59.080 She wrote that too. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.840 I've never had more fun discovering her, her legacy, and 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:09.359 and and her her songcraft and her life more than 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.200 our guest today. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:12.040 quest Lip Supreme. 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:18.240 Ali Willis. He's white Willis, but. 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:20.760 The right Alley Willis. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:25.440 Plus everyone thinks I'm a black man. When I meet anyone, 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.479 they go, shit, you're a woman and you're white. 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.880 So hey, you know, uh so I should note that 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.680 you are getting inducted into the Songwriters. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.080 Hall of Fame, yes tonight. Why can I ask what 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:41.840 took so long? 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:46.600 Because you're exactly exactly talk about it. Which is why 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.839 I never gave a shit about being in the Songwriters 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:50.960 Hall of Fame, because there were a lot of people, 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.919 you know, who were in there who had hits, definitely 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.760 not necessarily ones that you might know fifty years from 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.800 to day. So I just assumed, you know, I was 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.720 passed over. Didn't mean a lot to me, And then 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.240 when I got it, I was so excited I couldn't 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.640 stand it. So it doesn't mean a lot, and I'm elated. 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.800 Well, I'm elated for you because you know, well one, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.520 you know, as as a person that lives for uh 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:23.040 liner notes and credits. 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.320 I mean, maybe it's just easy to overlook a name 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:26.839 or something. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.360 You know you've been, You're ubiquitous, yet you're under the 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.080 surface in the eyes of many a liner note rat. 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:39.840 But once we discovered what he did, it was like, yeah, 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.919 it's you know, I'm the world's best kept secret. 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.560 So well hopefully hopefully not for long. 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.640 So I want to go back to your beginnings you 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:53.240 were now even though you said from the valley and well. 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:55.840 Half of that I was. 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.440 I was born in Detroit, the greatest city in the world. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:00.800 What part of the east west? 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.400 Northwest? I went to Mumford. 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:04.920 I've never had a Northwest on the show. 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.360 Yeah, Northwest. A lot of people came out of my 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:13.360 high school. The Winings went there, the Clark sisters went there. 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:22.640 Earl Klue Jerry Bruckheimer, Oh yeah, yeah, wow yeah. 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.880 So what was what was your entry into music? Because 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.040 I know that you had a history as a copywriter 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.800 at Sony Columbia. 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.000 At Columbia, I was a journalism major with a minor 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.680 in advertising at the University Wisconsin and someone told me 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.640 that they had advertising departments at record companies. 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.200 So I got a job as. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:52.960 A secretary at Columbia and epic almost didn't get the 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.160 job because they sent me upstairs when I interviewed for 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:00.760 a typing test, and I literally was on my eleventh 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.120 time of failing and the uh, what was the test? 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:06.200 Typing? 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:07.360 You have to do? 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:09.640 You know, like you have to do like one hundred 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:10.400 words a minute. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.400 I was even money, so they'd like dictaate something to 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.440 you and you, yeah, you're actually reading something and you 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:22.640 have to type, oh and just I wasn't getting it. 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.840 But then the head of the advertising department called upstairs 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.440 where I was taking the test and said send her 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.640 down because they just found out that day that the 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:36.720 secretary was quitting. So I got the job, but then 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.920 within a month I was bumped up to junior copywriters, 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.439 so my I was in charge of all the minorities, 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:47.160 which were blacks and women. That's all I cared about anyway, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.839 And so sometimes I wrote the liner notes, but usually 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.680 I was writing print ads for like rolling Stone cream. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.840 Uh, it's for all those Columbia records, so. 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.840 Like, well, no, it was up to me to actually 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.840 get the assetates as soon as the artist finished the record, 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.199 and then write all the advertising for it. So that 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:16.480 was radio commercials print ads, some cases TV, but not 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.320 so my main people that I well, I met Jannis 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:24.199 Joplin the first day that I was actually a secretary. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.480 She passed away five days later, but I got in 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.760 there and then I eventually moved into her apartment. So yeah, 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.720 I have a lot of stuff like like I saw 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:36.240 Otis Redding's plane crash. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.439 I mean, I have a lot of stuff like this. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.120 Tell us well about it Otis? 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:44.760 Well, wait, did we start with Janet, because like you said, 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:46.080 you met her Janis. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.720 Jane Jane Well, and then I was writing promo for Pearl, 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.800 the album that came out actually right after she died, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:54.720 but of course we didn't know she was going to die. 0:09:54.920 --> 0:10:01.160 So Johnny Cash, I did early stuff for my main 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.760 artist that I was in charge of. The Loura Nero, Uh, 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.240 Barbara Strays and Blood, Sweat and. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:13.360 Tears the Stone. Were they considered an urban act? 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.880 Yeah, they were put in with the black acts because 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:21.480 they had horns. I guess, yeah, I'm not well, explain 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:26.040 to me. I'm glad you're here it because well, it's 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.240 not like we have Clive on the show. 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:27.440 Ever. 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.240 He was like, I know, yeah, so this is the 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.920 closest I'm gonna get to it. Do you remember what 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.360 the atmosphere was like when you guys were given the 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.040 final master to there's a riot going on because I 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.160 figured that on the heels of stand and Woodstock and 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:49.240 the Greatest Hits record. 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.080 It's like, oh, this is gonna be the monster. Yeah, 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.560 and you get it and it's a whole other thing. Yeah, 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:56.960 what was the what was the room? 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:02.520 Like? People who were diehard sly fans loved it and 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:07.240 felt like he was progressing. But I think most of 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.760 the record company they wanted, you know, dance to the 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.319 music and everyday people and they were getting you know, 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.480 thank you for letting me be myself or you know, yeah, 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.559 so there it was a mix. I remember there was 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.400 some like panic in the room that maybe this wasn't 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.680 going to be a hit I think, but uh, you. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:32.320 Know, because like on your coming up from Detroit, Yeah, 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:34.160 I want to ask you at this point how your 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.640 parents felt about your journey, because we know that Joe 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:38.080 Daddy wasn't really. 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:39.480 Messive with the Blakes. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.920 Yeah, we can thank him for my career though, because 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:47.800 the more resistant, the more it pushed me. He was 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.920 not a bigot though he really wasn't a bigot. He 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.600 did it more to push my buttons, you. 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.880 Know, and he knew that the black thing was going 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:57.120 to be. 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.079 He was like the thing that put me over the y. 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.400 Yeah, Archie Bunker though, I think believed it a little 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:04.240 more than my dad. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:05.160 You know. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.079 My thing is growing up in Detroit. 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.199 I grew up right when Motown was like formed and 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.800 coming up, So I used to go down there every 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.040 time I could. Started when I was twelve, i think, 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.520 and I would sit out on the front lawn because 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.439 you could just watch people, you know, walking in and out. 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.600 But most importantly you could hear. 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:27.240 Through the walls. 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.679 Really so yeah, certain instruments. You could hear bass, you 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.560 could hear drums. Sometimes you could hear background vola from 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:37.800 the law. Yeah, because it was just in a little house. 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.839 So you know, if you were sitting close enough to 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.640 the house, which is how the Supremes got discovered, they 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:51.160 were also sitting out in front, and I think Mickey Stevenson, 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.160 who was head of A and R, came out on 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.560 the front porch and said, can anyone sing, I mean 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:56.520 I wasn't there for that. 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.120 How many people are sitting on the lawn on the deck. 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:04.200 Had to be really dedicated. There were always like tourists around, but. 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.240 There were a few people who were like planted there. 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:09.600 Was it a twenty four hour operation? 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.520 Yeah, I'm thinking of the safety, like okay, well not 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.040 to really blow up the spot. But like in Brooklyn, 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:23.319 the the the Daptone headquarters, which was Sharon Jones's. Yeah, 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:29.000 like their operation is very similar. Where it's in a neighborhood. Yeah, 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.880 I don't I'm not quite certain or where if the 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.839 neighborhood knows what goes on in that house. Yeah, but 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.320 always wonder, like with Motown, like was it a twenty 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:41.240 four hour operation? 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:42.160 Was it secure? 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.920 It's you know what I mean, were like I was 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.199 never I was never there at night. But my understanding 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:53.200 is yes, twenty four hours. Oh okay, yeah, okay, yeah, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.680 but you know during the day there'd always be tourists 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.880 there and then there would be you know, the lawn sitter. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.040 There's actually a little patch of dirt now you know 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.160 today right in front of the big you know those 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:15.480 big historical landmark, those green and gold they're not plaques. 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.320 They're big, they're like five feet tall, and it says 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.720 Motown Studios and it gives the history. So there's a 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.800 little patch of dirt because people stand there to read 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:30.720 the plaque. But I'm really friendly with everyone running Motown now, 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:35.760 which is headed by Barry Gordy's niece Rob and Terry. 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:41.040 So there's talk of naming that patch of dirt for 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:47.240 my ass based yes, yes, which would be my proudest 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:49.160 moment ever. 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.360 So when did the Motown people, whether it be Berry 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:54.640 or whoever the artist is, when did they discover that 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:55.760 you were. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:56.400 Who you were? 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:56.520 Like? 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:02.200 Not until Motown the musical O really yeah, because I 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:03.359 never got inside. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.160 I was always outside. 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.800 And then when September first came out and then Boogie Wonderland, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.400 the Detroit Free Press did a thing, you know, like 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.880 the Local Girl Makes Good and that was the first 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.640 time I was ever in the studio because they did 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.720 the story in the studio. Then I never ever went 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.640 back in until I did this project that I worked 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:29.840 on for five years, and this would have been maybe 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:34.000 twenty fourteen that I actually got into Motown and we 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.680 recorded a piece of this project there, which was a 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:43.280 five thousand detroiters as lead singers doing a song about Detroit. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.280 Five thousand lead singers. 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:48.720 Yeah and. 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.400 Yeah, it was crazy. It took five years. There's also 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:55.040 a visual component to it. 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:55.440 All. 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.200 Self funded, nearly killed me. But I love that city 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.520 and I'll do anything. And then only within this last 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.480 year was I introduced to Rob and Terry. They heard 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:11.280 about my collection because I have a very vast uh 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.680 pop culture, kitch kitch pop culture, kind of off the 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.280 center line. So they came out to see it because 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.520 they have a lot of Motown stuff, like really obscure stuff. 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:24.760 And then I became inseparable from them. 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.880 They came to your house, they flew out. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.600 For a day, and then just in Detroit, like three 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.720 weeks ago, they threw me a party and I had 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:39.560 my birthday at Motown. That was a surprise party that 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.680 happened there. So everyone that was on the tour her, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.280 you know, they stopped. They played this little film when 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.560 you start the tour. It's the have you ever seen 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.920 that film? Oh my god, Oh you'll have a heart attack. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.400 It's like classic Motown footage, but not that you usually see. 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.560 And it's the first thing that they show you when 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.480 you take the tour. So then they stopped the tour 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.119 and they said, uh, you know, ladies and gentlemen, we 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.800 know how much Motown means to you know, everyone, but 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:13.000 there's a certain person that you know is here today 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:15.480 because you know, I never learned how to play. I 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.960 write the music too, but I don't know how to play, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.600 and it's I write the exact same way that I 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.880 did when I sat out on the lawn, because I'd 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.879 learned bass parts because that's what you could hear, or 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.600 I'd learned like drum patterns, and I still write that way. 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.480 I'd like kind of hear something and you know, then 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:37.359 it it goes down anyway. So they said, you know, 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:39.679 I meant more to this person than anyone, and then 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.840 the whole place saying the happy Birthday was pretty unbelievable. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.960 That is amazing. Yeah, that is amazing. 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.320 So my Motown thing, though, is new, and I never 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.120 met Barry Gordy, which was a quest of mine forever. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.639 And when Motown the Musical opened in Detroit, it's at 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:58.440 a theater that is literally. 0:17:58.119 --> 0:17:59.959 Right down the block from Motown. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:06.280 And but one of my friends directed Motown the Musical, 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.720 Charles Randoff Right, and he said. 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:10.800 You're meeting Barry Gordy. 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:15.000 And I had had a camera because I have video 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:19.240 on my life since nineteen seventy eight. So really, yes, 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:27.160 literally every significant moment and trillions of the insignificant. 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.760 Ones, but nothing rated. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:36.600 Are everything there, everything's out of there and anyway, So 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.639 I saw Charles go off to Barry Gordy, and I 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:44.560 could hear Barry Gordy going she wrote what she wrote? What? 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:45.360 Yes? 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:47.239 And then I got to meet him. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.760 I have all of this on film, and you know, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.720 as I'm giving him kind of my final hug, I 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.280 thanked him and he said no, thank you, which to 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.359 me were the greatest words ever uttered to me in 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.359 my life, because I idolized him forever. 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.800 I mean, we're still thinking you so thank you. That 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.880 that is crazy. Wait, so how old were you when 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:11.639 you left Detroit? 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.600 How old did you see? I went when I went 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.840 to college, which was seventeen. Then I would come home 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.760 for vacations, and then once I was twenty one, I 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:20.640 went to New York. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.560 Yeah, I went to New York and that was it. 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.760 So what was the did you have any twenty grand 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:27.960 experiences up in Detroit? 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.040 Only in that I was always nine to go there, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:32.480 you know. 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.320 I mean I went a couple times, but that Baker's 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.720 Keyboard lounge, do you know? But Baker's, Uh, I not 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.119 heard of it. Bakers is really where the Funk Brothers 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.879 came from. It's still in existence. It's a jazz club, 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.000 and you know the Motown, the Funk Brothers, they were 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.560 all jazz players, right, so most. 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.320 Of them came out of there. But it was you know, 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:57.240 my father did not like me. 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:00.480 Having the these. 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:07.280 Tastes that I had for black culture, so I wasn't 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:09.960 really allowed to go out. He couldn't stop me from 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.400 going to Motown, especially once I got my driver's license. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:15.119 But I always like to. 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.879 Say I did get the last word with My father 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:23.080 passed away in two thousand and two, and the very 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.600 very last words that I said to him, I leaned 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.440 down and I whispered in his ear. 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.920 I just got the gig to write the color purple. 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:38.320 And he was gone within the hour, gone gone. So 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:41.320 whatever he put me through, I got him good. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:49.920 Oh God, sibling wise, are you the only sibling or no? 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.360 I have an older brother and sister, one still in Detroit. 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:57.399 My sister lives in Omaha. But they did not have 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.239 a fascination with Detroit the way that I did. Were 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.280 you the middle child, youngest? Oh you were the young yeah? 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:09.600 Okay, explain yeah, So back to so when you left 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:14.000 Detroit and uh college and whatnot? When did you did 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:15.399 you go to La A X And. 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.679 I, well, I have the job at the record company 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:26.080 from sixty nine actually to seventy four. But in nineteen 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.680 seventy two I wrote my first song okay, and I 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.760 took it to my boss at the record company, the 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.920 head of the advertising department. Actually I took the first 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:42.119 three that I wrote, and he took those to a 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.239 guy named Ron Alexenburg. He was head of Ever at 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:49.720 the time, and then Alexembourg not knowing it was me 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.240 because it was a conflict of interest to work there 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:53.720 and be an arm to. 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:55.720 An artistry and I didn't want to lose my job. 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.200 Alexembourg liked it and then took it to Clive, so 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.360 Clive had to sign off on and then I got 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:04.600 a deal, so I had to quit. 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.680 And I had one album that came out. First ten 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:11.639 songs I Ever. 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:16.200 Wrote did not make it. Actually got great reviews, but 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.919 it had zero sales, so. 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.120 I was doing four. 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:27.240 I only did four live appearances. I was terrified of 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:33.639 performing the first performance they put me opening for a 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.720 folk singer. I had an all black band dressed as 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.840 sequin vegetables, and everyone. 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.880 In my band like went on to do something great. 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:46.359 Put it in. 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:56.359 Yeah, well Bob Babbitt, who was yeah, yeah, they liked me. 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:57.000 I don't know. 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.920 The greatest thing is that tonight at the Songwriters Hall 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:08.320 of Fame induction, the background singer is the very very 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.520 first singer that I ever hired to be in my 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:14.520 band at the time, Phonsie Thorn Frozzie Thornton. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.959 Yes he's getting inducted to no, no, he's. 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:22.280 Singing backgrounds on Neutron Dance in September. 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:25.040 Which the Phronsie's like Luther, like just name it, like 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:26.600 well yeah, like. 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.040 Best favorite Luther since Kindergarten. 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.959 But the amazing thing is Luther was Phonsie's piano player, 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.800 and Phonsie actually had a group. There were three of them, 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:39.840 and so I ended up hiring the three of them 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:41.320 and leaving Luther behind. 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:44.320 Luther was pissed off. 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.600 But Luther, that was my very first music click. 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:51.000 That was like family to me. Speak. 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:53.920 Wait now that you're here, all right, I gotta ask 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:58.280 you quasi personal. Does the name Billy Jackson mean anything 0:23:58.359 --> 0:23:58.480 to you? 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:00.280 I mean, I know. 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:03.280 Formerly other times. 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:05.119 I know he wrote so in Love for the Times, 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.520 but he was also a staff producer at Columbia. 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:11.000 No, I don't think I know the same Billy Jackson. 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:17.440 But So in Love is absolutely my favorite all time records. Anyway, So, 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:21.399 so what happened was, so I go out on tour. 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:23.360 It was disastrous. 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:28.240 I never relaxed one second on stage, and I didn't 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.520 want a tour anymore, and then I lost my deal 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:35.760 like four months after the album came out. That night, 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:39.399 one of my my best friends were the Harlottes. They 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:43.880 sang you know, Bette Midler and one of them Sharon Red, 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:45.840 who went on to have like a bunch of like 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:49.960 disco things. Sharon Red, that was my best best Wait, 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:53.760 she was a heartlet Sharon Red. Yes, and as Charlotte 0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:57.200 Crossley Charlot do you know Charloh I don't know that name, 0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:59.680 but yeah, Sharon Sharon Read? 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:01.520 Yeah, who was Sharon Ray? 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:02.280 Why should we know her? 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.880 Well, she had a bunch of disco Yeah the name 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:10.240 that you know, yeah that you just but as a DJ, 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.000 I know that name, so I lost my record deal. 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:17.040 She said, you shouldn't be alone come to this recording 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.359 session I'm doing. I don't want to fucking be at 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:22.359 a recording session if I've just lost my deal, you know. 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:26.520 But she was like adamant about it, and I went 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:32.440 and it was another one of these unbelievable things that 0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:34.399 I am blessed to have happened to me. 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:35.760 We opened the. 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:39.000 Door to the studio was the Hit Factory, which is 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:42.360 where I also recorded my one album that came out 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:48.439 and produced by Jerry Ragavoy, by the way, and opened 0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:51.280 the door and the singer who I didn't know, took 0:25:51.440 --> 0:25:54.680 one look at me, and she literally ran over to 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:59.640 me and got on her knees and started bowing and said, 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:01.879 what are you doing here? You should go home and 0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:05.560 write me a song, And it was Bonnie Ray wo whoa. 0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:09.879 I got my very first cover the next day and 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:13.200 went on the road with her for a short while, 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:17.440 singing backgrounds. And then you figure, well it's going to roll, 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.119 but it didn't roll. I'd get a couple things cut 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:24.920 a year, but nothing significant, and then Patty LaBelle in 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:31.040 nineteen seventy eight, same person, Sharon red I had my 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:34.840 songs because the Harlot's got a record deal and it 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:38.720 was with the same producers doing Patty LaBelle. Patty heard 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.760 the songs and then flew me up to San Francisco. 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:45.120 I was living in LA by that time, and flew 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:49.280 me to San Francisco to make demos because they didn't 0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:51.840 have any money to make demos. She was just hearing 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:55.400 like piano vocals, and then Patty became the first one 0:26:55.440 --> 0:26:57.000 to regularly cut the songs. 0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:01.480 She said, I have a friend who's also up here recording. 0:27:01.600 --> 0:27:03.880 Go into Studio B. He needs lyrics. 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:09.040 I hated just writing lyrics and I didn't want to 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:11.480 be with the friend. I'm finally with the big cheese, 0:27:11.600 --> 0:27:13.240 so what do I want to be with the friend for? 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:17.840 So for two days I avoid going into this studio. 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:22.480 She was in Studio A. He was in Studio B, way. 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:26.159 Down the hall, and I was going walking down the 0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:30.320 hall and the door to Studio B open and I go, shit, 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:34.080 that's the guy. And I head into the bathroom. So 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:38.680 I'm in the bathroom. I had to pee anyway, So well, 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:44.440 I wanted to be with Patty. Yeah, So anyway, I'm 0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:47.639 like sitting on the toilet and the door to the 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:51.920 bathroom my fence, and I hear clump, clump, clump, and 0:27:52.040 --> 0:27:56.360 these two male feet slide under the bathroom door. 0:27:56.600 --> 0:28:00.280 Sure, and all he he in. 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:03.680 This like deep voices, like Patty says a really good writer, 0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:05.399 you know, come into Studio B. 0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:10.040 So I go into Studio B, and I figure, I'm trapped. 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:11.320 I'm like a speed. 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:13.080 Writer, and now you to cuss HI out with coming 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:13.639 in the bathroom. 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:15.760 No, no, no, it was no because I knew I 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:17.480 was messing up by not going in. 0:28:17.720 --> 0:28:20.879 I mean, I'm, you know, I finally meet like a 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:23.480 star and I'm already not doing what she, you know, 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:29.639 said overwhelming. Yeah, well this was overwhelming because we had 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:33.879 he had all these tracks, and so I'm sitting across 0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:37.119 from him and We're just firing these lyrics off. And 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:40.240 it was not until the middle of the second song 0:28:40.440 --> 0:28:43.720 Swear to God that he had a phone call, and 0:28:43.840 --> 0:28:47.240 I really started staring at him, you know, and I went, 0:28:47.920 --> 0:28:50.840 oh my god, it's Herbie Handcot. 0:28:52.280 --> 0:28:54.320 Wait, do not tell me this is out. Just come 0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:54.800 run into me. 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:58.160 Got written, Yes, exactly exactly. 0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:01.320 That was the first one IoT that before I realized 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:02.960 it was Herbie Hancock. 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:06.160 Shyeah, see this is what you don't know. And I 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:08.600 can't even believe you know that song. No you with 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:09.720 this is what you don't know. 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:17.600 That song is a very significant song to my, my generation, 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:21.880 my clique. Another detroiter that you might not be aware 0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:23.200 of a producer. 0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:29.920 Named Jay Dilla. Oh I mean yeah, yeah. He his 0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:33.440 gift if you heard the term like oh, musicians, musician 0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:34.800 or song song. Yeah. 0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:37.480 Usually he's like an obscure person that the regular people 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:39.760 don't get, but only the special people get. 0:29:39.920 --> 0:29:44.600 Yeah, he was the producer's producers producers. Wow. 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:48.040 So and not even to put myself in that category, 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:50.480 like only the special people got this guy. But what 0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:54.200 he managed to do, of course, you know hip hop works. 0:29:54.760 --> 0:29:57.160 A lot of work is derivative off of other people, 0:29:57.240 --> 0:30:01.240 you know, sampling and all that stuff. So, uh, which 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:03.520 is weird. I'm saying this as of this date, eighteen 0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:08.640 years ago. Uh, Fantastic Volume two came out today as 0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:11.240 of this speaking. I'm sure that this will go. 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:16.840 Away, yes, this right right right? Yeah, but. 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:25.720 Uh, you know, normally in an album like Sunlight wouldn't 0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:32.640 have necessarily gotten a second look. I mean it, there's 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:37.160 some classics on it. But it wasn't until Jay Dillon 0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:42.040 made us pay attention to it and especially just come 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:48.480 running to me. That means that's almost like, you know, 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:50.320 you're tired of people telling you like how much the 0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:53.440 friends theme means to them. I never get tired of 0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:57.040 it myself right now. 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:01.360 That's like for the Neil Soul generation. Yeah, yeah, that 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:05.760 that means everything, like of all you like, of all 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:08.760 the things you've done. Yeah, that song means the most 0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:08.920 of me. 0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:12.560 That is so shocking because I couldn't even sing it 0:31:12.640 --> 0:31:14.560 to you. Now, that's like how little. 0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:17.400 I mean, there's the reason why I'm like I hired 0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.760 vocoder players and stuff. Even when when Hermie comes around, 0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:24.400 I was like, really like that's what you Wantdow, I 0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:26.920 got everything else, Like why that song is amazing? 0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:29.760 Well, we we wrote like three or four songs like 0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:33.080 that day, of which that was, you know, one of them, 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:36.280 and then it was the Feat Down Failed Now. 0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:36.840 The next album. 0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:39.360 Yeah, and it was almost like the sequel to it. Yeah, 0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:43.200 but that's yo, dog Wow. The fact that that almost 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:46.280 didn't happen and you were avoid it only. 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:48.400 Happened because he had nerve to come into the bathroom. 0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:56.200 I wish Bill was here man. Yes, okay, so basically, 0:31:56.360 --> 0:32:03.560 uh uh okay, play the original teach us. I haven't 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:05.400 done this in so long because you know, I haven't 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:13.120 heard it since then. So basically, literally I. 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:16.320 Have Maybe the last time I heard this was nineteen eighty. 0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:21.640 I listened to this about ten times a week. Wow. 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:26.320 I don't understand how you write something like this without 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:29.160 knowing how to just falllng. 0:32:29.280 --> 0:32:31.520 I mean because I didn't. I didn't know how to play, 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:33.080 so I had to like teach myself. 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.200 So he wrote the music person and told you to 0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:36.280 come with lyrics, yeah. 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:38.400 Music, well yeah, and then I sat with him and 0:32:38.480 --> 0:32:39.520 we wrote the lyrics. 0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:44.200 Yeah. That's It's crazy to me because I don't even 0:32:44.560 --> 0:32:48.680 is this the first time that he sang lyrics to Yeah? 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:51.160 And it's why I never put together, really that it 0:32:51.240 --> 0:32:53.440 was Herbie Hancock, because what does he need lyrics for? 0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:56.000 But he had just gotten the vote co order. 0:32:56.760 --> 0:32:59.320 Wait, I never feel like I heard Herbie sing before. 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:24.960 Yeah, let's have a question. Still unbelievable. I haven't heard 0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:31.000 that in so long, so for us at least hang 0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:31.560 on a second. 0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:36.640 Oh yes, of course, what was your singing voice? 0:33:36.760 --> 0:33:41.760 Like my singing voice is as high as my speaking 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:45.800 voice is low, like like in the oh zone. 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:48.120 Yeah, it's likely. 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:50.880 Well wait that's the thing I want to know. Well, 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:52.840 I really want to get to Boogie wonder Lamb. But 0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:59.640 you're the imagery, like what all your subject matters and 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:06.040 yourlyrics are just on some next level Like as far 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:08.000 as the the imagery. 0:34:07.760 --> 0:34:12.560 Is, if I'm left to my own devices, they it is, 0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:17.239 but certain like I was very upset writing September, even 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:20.840 though I was so excited, I couldn't stand it. But 0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:25.080 it was such a song lyric lyric, and you know, 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:27.920 I was this journalism major. I wanted to write this 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:33.320 you know, incredible poetry or uh you know, story and 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:37.760 not have lines be as common as do you remember 0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:40.520 the twenty first ninety September Love was changing the minds 0:34:40.560 --> 0:34:42.400 of pretenders while chasing. 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:44.919 The clouds away that cloud line. 0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:48.400 I was ready to slip my wrists, but you know 0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:53.359 you're writing in that case with Maurice and and al 0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:56.759 McKay also, who's unbelievably fantastic. 0:34:57.120 --> 0:34:59.480 But the lyric end of it was just with Maurice. 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:03.680 It was so dark though, but for such a happy song. 0:35:03.920 --> 0:35:07.239 Yeah, well dark as Boogie Wonderland that's the one that's 0:35:07.280 --> 0:35:12.520 really dark, well in the verses. But but I learned 0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:16.279 an incredible lesson, the single most important lesson in my 0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.680 songwriting career, from Maurice during September. 0:35:21.000 --> 0:35:22.160 Because I was very. 0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:27.480 He always used the term or. 0:35:27.560 --> 0:35:35.560 The nonsensical word body e when he would write anything. 0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:37.759 So if it was like he was doing that's the 0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:39.800 way of the world, you know, he would have gone. 0:35:42.719 --> 0:35:42.919 Yeah. 0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:46.920 So that came right at the top of the chorus 0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:50.840 is September. You know, body a sadie. Remember body dancing 0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:54.520 in September? Body yad never was a cloudy day. So 0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:57.600 I kept saying throughout the writing because we wrote September 0:35:57.719 --> 0:36:02.640 to be the only the new single on the Greatest Hits, 0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:05.040 and at the same time we were writing the whole 0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:09.920 I Am album, so it took, you know, months to 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:12.560 actually complete any of the songs because they were all 0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:19.560 being written at once. So for September, I kept saying, 0:36:19.600 --> 0:36:21.680 oh my god, this is such a hit. We can't 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:24.640 leave body oah, it's got to be like real words. 0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:29.359 And at first he was kind of humoring me. It's like, okay, well, 0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:31.400 like replace them, but we don't need to do it 0:36:31.480 --> 0:36:34.880 now because we know this section works, so we aren't 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:36.600 at the at midnight. 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:41.360 We were at Sunset Sound in LA and. 0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:47.560 The whole album was due, plus September had to be 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:50.319 out of the studio at midnight. It was like ten 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:54.560 minutes to midnight, and I went into the studio and 0:36:54.719 --> 0:36:58.840 I did literally get on my knees and I'm clutching 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:01.160 his thighs. The man had the best thighs in the 0:37:01.280 --> 0:37:05.759 music industry, I gotta tell you, and yeah, probably and 0:37:07.000 --> 0:37:11.480 begging like we have to change body out of real words. 0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:15.520 In his biography, he actually says I was crying while 0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:18.560 I did this. So I was very emotional about this 0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:21.040 because I think, oh my god, this song is gonna 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:23.160 go in the toilet because no one's who's gonna know 0:37:23.239 --> 0:37:24.279 what body I means? 0:37:24.360 --> 0:37:27.000 But by then body I was in the earth would 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:28.200 a fire Alexicon. 0:37:27.880 --> 0:37:33.120 They yeah, had done yeah nas prominently, but yes, yeah, 0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:37.080 and uh like sun Goddess or something like that right 0:37:38.040 --> 0:37:41.400 in your head what would have fit those That was 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:46.080 part of the problem. Everything was corny, you know, because 0:37:46.120 --> 0:37:47.520 you only have three syllables. 0:37:47.560 --> 0:37:48.880 Give me examples like what was. 0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:52.719 Well when we did try in white words, it was 0:37:52.760 --> 0:37:55.600 still stuff that nauseated me, like, you know, oh my 0:37:55.840 --> 0:38:00.160 love or you know yeah, yeah, no, no, it was hit, yes, 0:38:00.280 --> 0:38:05.160 it was hideous. So anyway, but I'm still begging him, 0:38:05.200 --> 0:38:05.600 and you know. 0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:09.000 He was calm. It took a lot to like rile him. 0:38:09.960 --> 0:38:13.480 I to this day, like never saw him angry or 0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:17.360 anything or lift his voice to it, you know, to anyone, 0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:22.160 just this serene being. And so I finally said, I 0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:27.040 like scream, what the fuck does body on mean? And 0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:28.760 he just said, who the fuck cares? 0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:30.920 And that was it. That was the end of it. 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:33.279 And then the record was out in three weeks, and 0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.840 my life changed, tell me changed, because that was the barbecue. 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:41.799 Yeah no, it still is. It's the song that wouldn't die. 0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:45.440 It's it literally gets bigger every year. 0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:48.120 I need to know more about body like we did, Maurice. 0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:49.960 I mean, it's it's just a random sound. 0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:52.279 They've just always you know, since that's the way the 0:38:52.320 --> 0:38:55.440 world since opened our eyes. They just I could I 0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:56.520 could tell you about. 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:05.680 Do you know, I know you'll know it hot dog 0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:10.600 it because that, to me is one of my favorite 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:16.160 Maurice vocals. And that's all. Uh, I can't actually remember 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:20.200 who's that dogging around is? The only actual vocal in there. 0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:25.320 Otherwise it's all by type, just phrases and sounds. 0:39:30.120 --> 0:39:34.040 All right, we majorly skipped went straight to Earthwork Fire. 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:36.560 I want to get to Can't Let Go, But let's 0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:37.200 let's go back. 0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:40.120 To be another one that I thought insignificant, and that 0:39:40.400 --> 0:39:42.640 song no Let Go, Yeah, that. 0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:45.279 Is I still that's still my DJs like that to me, 0:39:46.000 --> 0:39:47.680 that should have been that. 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:53.160 I think it was a B side of something it was, yeah, but. 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:54.880 It should have it should have been hit like that 0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:55.239 to me. 0:39:56.320 --> 0:40:01.799 Wow, that's incredible that it's my obscure more obscure ones. 0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:05.160 That you like, which I love. That's not incredible that wait, 0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:10.879 get to Angela Bluefield anyway, Oh my god, Oh my god. 0:40:11.360 --> 0:40:17.640 I don't know which one the title track to the 0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:20.840 one album that really didn't make it something about You. 0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:24.520 It's in between Two Tough and Angel of the Night, 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:27.960 but the Angel of the Night. Here's the funny story 0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:32.279 is that even though that didn't get much more. 0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:34.640 I mean, i've her first four records, like my dad 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:40.480 was the biggest Angela Bluefield, that album didn't get that 0:40:40.600 --> 0:40:43.759 much played. But here's the funny thing, Uh, growing up 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:48.040 and the Don't Touch my don't touch the stereo household. 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:53.240 There was a scratch on side one of that Angela 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:55.520 Bluefield record, So you are. 0:40:56.200 --> 0:40:56.480 And so. 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:00.920 You know, the way that our stereo was position was 0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:04.359 like far away from We had speakers all over the house, 0:41:04.760 --> 0:41:08.839 universal speakers, but the stereo was in the living room, 0:41:08.960 --> 0:41:10.359 so like, if you want to change it, you gotta 0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:13.080 go downstairs. Like you can listen to it in any 0:41:13.160 --> 0:41:17.200 room in the house, but you still had to. And 0:41:17.400 --> 0:41:21.640 so because of the way that the wax culture is, 0:41:23.040 --> 0:41:25.319 I think it's the first line of the second verse of. 0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:29.920 Something about you, which I think is you've been hungry 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:32.160 too long? It always skips. 0:41:32.360 --> 0:41:35.000 My cousins were dirty, whereas since you've been hugd me too, 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:37.840 you've been huked me too long, since you've been hooking. 0:41:38.200 --> 0:41:43.200 Ship used to always skip. And that memory that is 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:47.239 etched in my brain I can't even remember. Was the 0:41:47.280 --> 0:41:52.080 churuse like kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, okay, that's all 0:41:52.120 --> 0:41:55.080 I remember, though, Yeah, but it's just like yeah. But 0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:58.040 the thing is is that I used the word hungry 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:00.440 all the time in lyrics though, so I know that 0:42:00.520 --> 0:42:00.840 it's me. 0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:07.080 All the time. So what was you hungry for everything? 0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:08.200 All the time. 0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:11.960 Okay, so as a songwriter, Okay, I'm taking back to 0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:15.719 her seventy seven You're in the bath, so seventy eight, 0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:21.840 well seventy eight, Yeah, how how terrifying was it living 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:23.319 check to check? 0:42:24.480 --> 0:42:24.520 Like? 0:42:24.680 --> 0:42:28.319 And how does a songwriter make a living in LA? 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:30.919 Like this is like you just wait for the quarter 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:32.399 to come? Did you get a publishing deal? 0:42:32.600 --> 0:42:34.359 Did you? Like? How does that work? 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:37.880 I know I was pretty starving to death when I 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:42.880 first lost the job at Columbia Epic. I became a 0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:48.319 hat check girl at comedy clubs, so at Catcherizing Star, 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:51.640 and then there was a club called Reno Sweeney, which 0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:59.400 was a cabaret that Bet Melissa Manchester, Barry Manilow Manhattan Transfer. 0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:00.919 Came out of there. Yeah. 0:43:01.160 --> 0:43:01.560 So I. 0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:07.439 Was hanging coats at Reno Sweeney and well at both 0:43:07.520 --> 0:43:09.920 of the clubs. Yeah, And I was also hanging posters. 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:12.440 I was going around the city with like glue and shit. 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:16.640 But I moved to California because it was if I'm 0:43:16.680 --> 0:43:19.160 going to starve death, I'm doing it in the sun. 0:43:19.840 --> 0:43:24.440 So I actually moved in seventy six, and no, I 0:43:24.680 --> 0:43:31.120 was getting I was on unemployment, really not making money 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:33.840 at all. I did get one publishing deal with like 0:43:33.960 --> 0:43:36.320 a five thousand dollars advance, which to me was like 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:37.800 a million dollars. 0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:41.160 Right was going home, back home? 0:43:41.320 --> 0:43:43.120 Ever an option like I got a little bit never 0:43:43.760 --> 0:43:46.960 no because of my father situation, and I. 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:49.640 Write letters like hey Dad, I'm doing fine. It was 0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:50.279 like yeah no. 0:43:50.400 --> 0:43:52.680 And every time I got a record cut, it was 0:43:52.760 --> 0:43:54.360 by a black artist, and then I'd have to go 0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:59.239 through the whole like conversation again. So not I only 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:03.839 got reat hatched to Detroit seven or eight years ago, 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:06.160 and then I became obsessive about it. 0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:09.279 I always loved it in my heart, but I wasn't 0:44:09.360 --> 0:44:10.520 going back constantly. 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:15.239 So he wasn't impressed with September and. 0:44:16.120 --> 0:44:19.400 Dad, I got a number one hit, not to my face, 0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:22.719 but I always heard from all my friends like, you know, 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:24.759 if we see your dad walking down the street, we 0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:26.560 got to go to the other side because he'll talk 0:44:26.560 --> 0:44:29.280 about you for two hours and he'll show us clip, 0:44:29.400 --> 0:44:31.920 he'll show them clippings and all of this. 0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:33.239 But not not to me. 0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:36.239 Really didn't give it up until right at the end, 0:44:36.760 --> 0:44:38.800 and then I sent him out with the color purple. 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:48.600 So even so, how do songwriters get paid is the artist, like, okay, 0:44:49.000 --> 0:44:49.880 i'd see your starving. 0:44:49.920 --> 0:44:51.560 Here's here's a couple hundred bucks just to. 0:44:53.080 --> 0:44:55.759 It was really, you know, all my friends were songwriters, 0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:57.280 my whole little click. 0:44:57.719 --> 0:44:59.200 Some became performers. 0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:02.160 Those people we're making money, but the ones who were 0:45:02.280 --> 0:45:06.680 just songwriters, we were basically just starving together. It was 0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:10.040 quite an illustrious group. Everyone went on to like have 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:13.480 hits and all pretty much around the same time. We 0:45:13.600 --> 0:45:16.400 all kind of hit at the same time. But no, 0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:18.960 we were collecting unemployment and. 0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:24.200 Really that's it. Like when Patty. 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:28.200 LaBelle paid for me to go to San Francisco, that 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:31.319 was it. It's you know, the Harlot's were up there, 0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:33.759 you know, which is how she heard it. So they 0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:36.120 were like giving me money for food and she paid 0:45:36.160 --> 0:45:36.880 for the tickets. 0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:41.920 So that tasty album. Yeah, Patty, was that the only 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:44.120 time you worked with her before you got to Stir 0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:44.440 It Up. 0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:48.480 I was on a couple albums of her. I had 0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:53.120 a couple songs per album, okay, for two or three albums. Yeah, 0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:57.000 Stirred Up was like way aft, well relatively way. 0:45:56.960 --> 0:46:03.479 Aft, okay, Okay, So with uh, I know that you also, okay, 0:46:03.520 --> 0:46:06.279 I gotta get to it's it's a big na bs. 0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:12.440 No, it's a lot. But how what was on your 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:13.600 mind with Bookie Wonderland. 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:15.239 I can tell you exactly. 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:16.839 I've been waiting for this movie. 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.960 I can tell you the other jewels she hold of 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:21.080 for you two. I forget about the other one with great. 0:46:21.719 --> 0:46:27.320 Oh oh oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay. So Bookie 0:46:27.320 --> 0:46:30.720 Wonderland I wrote with John Lynn. John Lynn had written 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:35.360 Sun Goddess for Earth Wind and Fire, and he was 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:38.640 kind of he was managed by the same Cavallo Ruffalo 0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:42.280 who you know managed Earth Wind and Fire. Denise Williams 0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:46.560 like Prince Yeah, friends, yeah, oh, that's the story I 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:47.239 need to tell you. 0:46:47.680 --> 0:46:48.840 So remember Prince. 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:54.080 Yes, and uh so, Maurice kept saying you two should 0:46:54.080 --> 0:46:58.600 write together. So this would have been in March, I 0:46:58.680 --> 0:47:01.880 think in nineteen seventy eight, so I already knew I 0:47:01.960 --> 0:47:03.720 had a whole bunch of Earth Wind and Fire stuff 0:47:03.760 --> 0:47:05.759 coming out, but nothing had come out yet. 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:08.680 John had had something out, and. 0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:13.240 We wanted to use the word boogie, because every song 0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:16.680 had boogie in it at that time, but we didn't 0:47:16.719 --> 0:47:19.640 want to use it in the normal sense of the word, 0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:24.760 which you know, to dance. And I the night before 0:47:24.880 --> 0:47:27.880 had seen the movie Looking for Mister Goodbar. 0:47:28.920 --> 0:47:29.919 Diane Keaton movie. 0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:33.480 She goes out to disco's every night like her life 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:37.240 is completely falling apart, but she gets into the club 0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:40.520 and you know, her life is all of a sudden magical, 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:44.279 and she brings home a different guy every night to 0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:48.800 sleep with, and the audience has led to believe that 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:51.000 one of these guys is a serial killer. 0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:53.120 Not what you thought you were going to hear for 0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:54.120 Boogie Wonderland. 0:47:54.719 --> 0:47:56.879 So we wanted to write. 0:47:56.760 --> 0:48:01.759 A song about someone who's life was falling apart but 0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:05.399 would escape into this world of dance every night where 0:48:05.400 --> 0:48:06.480 everything would be okay. 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:07.600 So we knew we. 0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:11.720 Wanted a really dark verse and we wanted a really 0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:14.400 sparkling happy chorus. 0:48:15.480 --> 0:48:21.200 So the h and we wrote the song actually in order. 0:48:23.040 --> 0:48:26.880 So the you know the verse which people always come 0:48:26.960 --> 0:48:28.480 up to me and they say, book you Wonderland. It's 0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:31.080 such a happy song, And I always say, have you 0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:34.560 listen to the lyric? So but people sing it like 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:37.440 you know, you sing it phonetically. People sing along with it, 0:48:37.560 --> 0:48:40.719 but they don't know what they're singing. So the verse is, uh, 0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:44.759 midnight creeps so slowly into hearts of men who need 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:48.279 more than they get. Daylight deals a bad hand to 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:52.400 a woman who's laid too many bets. The mirror stares 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:55.080 you in the face and says, a baby, it don't work. 0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:58.680 You say your prayers though you don't care. You dance 0:48:58.800 --> 0:48:59.719 to shake the hurt. 0:49:01.040 --> 0:49:02.040 Then we wanted to. 0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:05.560 The song was actually written in a different structure than 0:49:05.600 --> 0:49:08.480 they recorded it in because they go from that, they 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:11.680 do the little dance boogie Wonderland chant, and then they 0:49:11.800 --> 0:49:14.560 go right back into sounds fly through the night, I 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:16.840 chase my vinyl dreams, the boogie Wonderland. 0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:20.000 I find romance when I start to dance in Boogie Wonderland. 0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:24.680 But we inserted the chorus in between the verses, so 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:27.440 it went from this dark, depressing you're looking in the 0:49:27.480 --> 0:49:31.759 mirror and feeling like shit, to all of the love 0:49:31.840 --> 0:49:34.080 in the world can't be gone, all the need to 0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:36.440 be loved, can't be wrong. All the records are playing 0:49:36.480 --> 0:49:41.920 in my heart keep saying boogie Wonderland, And we wanted 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:45.600 that to sound almost Broadway ish, and how happy that 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:49.239 that music was. It was supposed to be like a 0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:51.360 bipolar mood swing. 0:49:51.600 --> 0:49:57.000 Yes it was. To the chorus, Yeah, and would you 0:49:57.160 --> 0:50:01.680 write these lyrics? Do you just come out with the 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:04.640 complete prose or like, are you thinking of a rhythmic structure? 0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:06.239 Are you thinking of. 0:50:07.760 --> 0:50:10.360 Because that's a lot you're You're placing a lot of 0:50:10.400 --> 0:50:14.359 poetic thought into the imagery. Yeah, but in my head, 0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:17.239 I'm like, Okay, well, how's this going to fit in 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:19.359 this line and this line and that line, and how 0:50:19.480 --> 0:50:19.759 can we. 0:50:20.239 --> 0:50:23.759 Well we were we we definitely wrote the music. We 0:50:23.840 --> 0:50:26.160 wrote the music to the verse verse, and then put 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.640 the words to that. Then we jumped to the chorus 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:34.840 music and lyrics. I mean, every song is different. I 0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:38.560 knew we were actually trying to write for Earth Wind 0:50:38.600 --> 0:50:43.640 and Fire, but you know, so we knew it had 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:46.880 to have, like, you know, a certain rhythmic thing to it, 0:50:47.880 --> 0:50:50.440 and because the chords were so dark in the in 0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:52.839 the verse, that seemed to fit. 0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:55.720 And the first few lines of the chorus came easy. 0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.719 But we still didn't have boogie in it, and we 0:51:00.160 --> 0:51:01.960 we didn't know how to work it in and we 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:06.040 didn't really know what to call the song. And the 0:51:06.120 --> 0:51:10.480 course was last, yes, and the words Bookie Wonderland War 0:51:10.880 --> 0:51:13.160 was the very last thing that we got. 0:51:13.440 --> 0:51:14.440 So what was the it was. 0:51:14.480 --> 0:51:26.880 Originally called Johnny's Casino Lounge. So and we, yeah, we 0:51:27.040 --> 0:51:29.439 got the phone book out because we said, well, let's 0:51:29.480 --> 0:51:32.480 look up names of clubs. So we looked up clubs 0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:36.040 and we looked up bars, and one we liked Johnny's, 0:51:36.080 --> 0:51:38.680 and then there was another one called the Casino Lounge. 0:51:39.200 --> 0:51:43.680 So the original chorus started out, come. 0:51:43.840 --> 0:51:47.200 To Johnny's cassine no lounge. 0:51:47.800 --> 0:51:51.160 That was the original things became all time favor. 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:56.040 Instead of you know, and then then we went, no, no, 0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:58.719 it doesn't sound important enough. Earth Wind and Fire is 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:01.840 not going to sing Johnny's Casino Lounge. So then we 0:52:01.960 --> 0:52:04.719 came to, uh, you know, all the Love in the 0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:09.040 Wood can't be Gone, And when we got to all 0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:12.000 the records are playing and mock keep saying when we 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:16.399 got there, it was we wanted Broadway, we wanted Cinderella, 0:52:16.640 --> 0:52:19.120 we wanted you know something. So that just felt like 0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:23.000 it was this incredibly broadwayish line. Neither one of us 0:52:23.160 --> 0:52:26.160 like Feeder at all, but it was you know, what, 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:29.759 is like my fair lady or something. It just felt 0:52:29.840 --> 0:52:32.520 like that kind of melody to us. So once we 0:52:32.920 --> 0:52:36.279 got rid of Johnny's Casino Lounge, we tried to fit 0:52:36.400 --> 0:52:37.320 it in the end. 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:38.320 Uh. 0:52:41.000 --> 0:52:43.280 Johnny's Cassine No Lounge. 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:44.239 You know. 0:52:45.800 --> 0:52:50.000 When you're writing these songs, are you thinking, first, let's 0:52:50.000 --> 0:52:53.080 write a hit or you just trying to express an idea? 0:52:53.400 --> 0:52:57.880 Well, in my head, I always wanted hits. So because 0:52:58.000 --> 0:53:00.360 I love layered It's so complex, it was like. 0:53:02.280 --> 0:53:05.320 It didn't dawn on me that anything was different about it, 0:53:05.400 --> 0:53:10.239 which it was, seriously yeah, because my whole thing was 0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:13.840 there used to be this massive discussion between what is 0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:15.440 art and what is commercial. 0:53:15.840 --> 0:53:17.760 And I grew up on Top forty radio. 0:53:17.920 --> 0:53:22.400 I loved Top forty, so to me, the greatest songs 0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:25.560 were when you could mesh those two things together as 0:53:25.600 --> 0:53:29.440 opposed to making a decision between going one way or 0:53:29.560 --> 0:53:29.879 the other. 0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:32.719 So I was always trying to shove that in. 0:53:33.520 --> 0:53:36.960 That song felt the whole way through like, Okay, that 0:53:37.160 --> 0:53:44.000 is exactly what we're doing. So I But Boogie Wonderland 0:53:44.200 --> 0:53:48.080 only came about because we realized that even though we 0:53:48.239 --> 0:53:50.600 set out to write a song using that word, we 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:54.560 hadn't used it. So we went, okay, screw it. Instead 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:58.480 of the club name, boogie Wonderland is. 0:53:58.520 --> 0:53:58.800 Going to be. 0:54:00.200 --> 0:54:02.960 What this needs to be is the state of mind 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:07.720 that this person is in when they go into the club. 0:54:07.840 --> 0:54:10.239 So that state of mind became Boogie Wonderland. 0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:14.560 So are you having these philosophical discussions as you're doing it? Yes? 0:54:14.719 --> 0:54:16.680 And I love writing that way. So is there like 0:54:16.760 --> 0:54:20.960 a vision board or something like? Okay, so what do 0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:21.839 you want to write about? 0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:25.719 And I mean, you know, I I have written with 0:54:26.360 --> 0:54:28.320 thousands of stupid people. 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:30.040 Thousands. 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:34.440 It's a drag to write with someone stupid because you 0:54:34.560 --> 0:54:38.080 can't have these kind of discussions. I love having these 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:41.239 kind of discussions because you really like break it down 0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:41.680 and you. 0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:48.120 Know, like what she has became my all time right now, 0:54:48.239 --> 0:54:50.080 this is amazing, this is. 0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:56.879 But John Lynn was someone you could have those kind 0:54:56.920 --> 0:55:02.239 of discussions with. So, uh, you know, that was really 0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:05.040 one of those songs where you're kind of intellectualizing it 0:55:05.120 --> 0:55:06.520 the whole way through. 0:55:06.719 --> 0:55:06.919 See. 0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:11.360 I just always felt that Boogie Wonderland was a I 0:55:11.440 --> 0:55:14.120 mean that to me was the when we talk about 0:55:14.200 --> 0:55:19.440 troll culture, uh, the the the especially like in today's 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:23.400 Internet society, when you speak of troll culture, yeah, the 0:55:23.600 --> 0:55:29.600 the art of of of provoking someone whatever. Now usually 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:32.839 in in the cannon in the songwriting canon of earth 0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:37.719 wind Fire. Yeah, Boogie Wonderland isn't necessarily in anyone's top ten, 0:55:37.800 --> 0:55:42.040 but I always surface Earth and Fire fans were like, 0:55:42.200 --> 0:55:42.640 they try to. 0:55:42.600 --> 0:55:45.279 Do a disco song, yeah, missed it. Yeah, And I 0:55:45.280 --> 0:55:49.080 always had to argue, I'm like, yo, like Boogie Wonderland 0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:49.760 and Hey. 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:54.000 Yah are almost in the same Hey y'all is in 0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:56.800 the same category. Like Dre's actually making fun of the 0:55:56.880 --> 0:55:59.759 audience that's embracing it. Yeah, and he says like they're 0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:02.799 not even listening to the lyrics where it's like he's 0:56:03.000 --> 0:56:07.960 literally saying, you know, people just want to shake their ass, 0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:11.439 but they're not even peeping the darkness of the song. 0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:15.399 And I noticed always felt that Boogie Wonderland was done 0:56:15.480 --> 0:56:17.759 with a week. I thought it was let's make fun 0:56:17.800 --> 0:56:20.239 of disco. Well it was with a week. 0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:23.960 I need to get you the demo of Boogie Wonderland, 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:26.359 Yes you do, which you could actually guess you right 0:56:26.400 --> 0:56:28.680 now because they do have it on my website. Yes, 0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:33.120 but it was we always felt like we wrote it 0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:36.279 as a song. They cut it as a groove, like 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:39.440 it was never meant to be all orchestrated like that. 0:56:41.120 --> 0:56:44.240 Oh so once you had the demo with the lyrics, 0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:45.759 then they can do whatever they. 0:56:45.960 --> 0:56:48.680 So when you heard the final product, what'd you think? Well, 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:50.440 I was at a bunch of the sessions. 0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:54.000 It took me to hear that song as an oldie 0:56:54.200 --> 0:56:57.719 to go, oh my god, it's really good. So at 0:56:57.760 --> 0:57:02.200 the time I thought they sucked it up. Yeah, really, yes, 0:57:02.400 --> 0:57:04.880 even though I was very excited, like we were at the. 0:57:04.880 --> 0:57:08.120 String and horn sessions that just in terms of being 0:57:08.200 --> 0:57:09.479 in the room with those kind. 0:57:09.440 --> 0:57:12.759 Of strings, those kind of horns was exciting, but it 0:57:12.880 --> 0:57:17.480 did not feel appropriate for the song that we had written. 0:57:17.800 --> 0:57:24.000 I mean, now, in hindsight, you know, I absolutely adore it, 0:57:24.120 --> 0:57:25.960 but at the time it's like, what is all this 0:57:26.080 --> 0:57:27.880 stuff doing on here? 0:57:28.600 --> 0:57:28.800 You know? 0:57:28.920 --> 0:57:31.800 But even in your Broadway vision of it, because Earthword 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:35.600 and Fire is theater, they are high, high theater, so yeah, 0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:37.680 we I don't think they knew it at the time. 0:57:38.080 --> 0:57:44.960 So I always felt this is a multi layered troll mastery, 0:57:45.200 --> 0:57:45.680 Like I. 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:46.240 Can see that. 0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:50.720 Yeah, But the the demo was was different. 0:57:50.840 --> 0:57:51.320 The demo. 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:56.000 You would have to hear the demo, John singing the 0:57:56.120 --> 0:57:58.000 lead on that I will get you the demo. 0:57:58.560 --> 0:58:00.440 I think that would be really interest thing for. 0:58:00.480 --> 0:58:00.880 You to hear. 0:58:01.440 --> 0:58:04.800 Extremely also within in the stone. We can't ignore that 0:58:04.880 --> 0:58:07.680 you wrote in the stone? Yeah, what is that about? 0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:11.360 At the time, I had no idea. 0:58:11.520 --> 0:58:13.880 You know. The first thing he ever said to me, Maurice, 0:58:14.680 --> 0:58:17.280 literally the very first thing was do you what do 0:58:17.360 --> 0:58:19.760 you know about Eastern philosophies? 0:58:20.600 --> 0:58:22.560 And it was like I knew nothing. I didn't even 0:58:22.600 --> 0:58:24.160 know what he was talking about. 0:58:24.200 --> 0:58:27.400 That I always say I was as evolved as pop rocks. 0:58:27.840 --> 0:58:32.680 I was like, I was like strictly you know, pop culture, 0:58:33.080 --> 0:58:36.920 top forty radio, television, and you know, I knew he 0:58:37.120 --> 0:58:39.040 was into all this, you know, deep shit. 0:58:39.680 --> 0:58:41.280 So I said, I didn't know anything. 0:58:41.360 --> 0:58:44.640 So he gave me a list of books and sent 0:58:44.680 --> 0:58:49.360 me yes, and sent me to a store in La 0:58:49.520 --> 0:58:53.520 called the Body Tree, which was the Yeah, like just 0:58:53.960 --> 0:58:55.760 you could smell the incense. 0:58:55.440 --> 0:58:58.440 Like a mile away. It's still there. No it's not. 0:58:58.640 --> 0:59:03.200 There's a I meant the culture is still there. 0:59:04.000 --> 0:59:06.640 Yeah, it's not physically still there, but yeah, there's someone 0:59:06.680 --> 0:59:09.439 that was associated with that place, that has another place 0:59:09.480 --> 0:59:10.040 similar to it. 0:59:10.320 --> 0:59:13.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. So he gave me 0:59:13.720 --> 0:59:16.120 ten books and he said, the one you have to 0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:19.560 start with. It was called the Greatest Salesman in the World. 0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:24.800 And I thought oh, it's about advertising. I got this 0:59:25.040 --> 0:59:27.880 down and I opened it up and immediately it's not 0:59:28.000 --> 0:59:30.600 about advertising, it's you know, the profits in. 0:59:30.640 --> 0:59:31.800 There in the old Egypt. 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:42.800 And I got so confused immediately immediately. But in the 0:59:43.040 --> 0:59:47.360 Stone on that album, and I Am was supposed to 0:59:47.400 --> 0:59:49.840 be the song that kind of really got all of 0:59:49.920 --> 0:59:52.600 their philosophy in there, So I. 0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:53.760 Never understood it. 0:59:53.840 --> 0:59:56.440 As we were writing, he would basically tell me what 0:59:56.560 --> 0:59:59.680 he wanted to say, and I would give him ten 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:04.560 different lines that that said that. Now, of course I 1:00:04.760 --> 1:00:09.040 understand everything. It's very much let alone the phrase I am. 1:00:09.280 --> 1:00:10.920 He said, that's what I'm going to call the album. 1:00:10.920 --> 1:00:14.640 I said, what does I AM mean? Now, it's in 1:00:14.760 --> 1:00:20.080 every spiritual philosophy. You know that that there is, but 1:00:20.480 --> 1:00:24.040 you know very much about presence being in the now, 1:00:25.040 --> 1:00:31.640 in the Stone, the fact that that you know culturally 1:00:32.640 --> 1:00:35.480 that everything kind of is pre written, that man kind 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:38.560 of there's this mindset for what man is and we 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:42.240 have passed. And he very much believed in past lives 1:00:42.720 --> 1:00:46.600 and future lives. But that one I was flying by. 1:00:46.560 --> 1:00:47.560 The seat of my pants. 1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:56.000 Did you have a good report in friendship with Maurice White. 1:00:56.280 --> 1:01:01.600 I'm only asking because What makes I AM really significant 1:01:02.880 --> 1:01:06.920 is the fact that even though even though all right 1:01:07.000 --> 1:01:13.280 so uh like and Steve, even though Marie's Richard Nichols, 1:01:13.560 --> 1:01:16.880 which was Charles Stephanie yeah, passed away. 1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:23.040 Kind of leaving him to hold the ball and hold 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:26.640 everything together, which I mean for the all in. 1:01:26.640 --> 1:01:30.360 All record, I felt like that just the sheer adrenaline 1:01:30.440 --> 1:01:32.880 of Okay, now I have to drive this car and 1:01:33.800 --> 1:01:36.760 made Charles proud of me. But I always felt like, 1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:41.600 because I mean, you come into play. But also David Foster, 1:01:41.920 --> 1:01:43.360 he brought us the same day. 1:01:43.520 --> 1:01:44.480 We were both brought in. 1:01:45.240 --> 1:01:48.240 You two were brought this. Did you guys work together 1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:50.920 per se or were you like separate camps on. 1:01:51.080 --> 1:01:52.200 Some songs together? 1:01:53.080 --> 1:01:55.840 And then I also did he had a solo album 1:01:56.000 --> 1:02:01.400 with Jay Grayden called The airplaye okay, oh yeah, uh yeah, 1:02:01.880 --> 1:02:04.400 so Graydon and Foster were kind of a team at 1:02:04.440 --> 1:02:04.880 that point. 1:02:04.960 --> 1:02:07.440 You know what, I've had an Airplayer album forever. I 1:02:07.520 --> 1:02:10.480 didn't know that was David Foster. Yeah, yeah, Okay sings 1:02:10.520 --> 1:02:12.200 on that record. Yeah yeah. 1:02:12.760 --> 1:02:16.000 Another I can't remember the single. I think could it 1:02:16.080 --> 1:02:17.400 be alright something like that. 1:02:17.800 --> 1:02:18.960 It's a yacht rock classic. 1:02:19.040 --> 1:02:21.880 Oh okay, yeah, Well I like it then, okay, yeah, well, I. 1:02:21.920 --> 1:02:24.720 Mean if you like did his Office Rock, Yeah, it's 1:02:24.720 --> 1:02:27.840 a smooth la not a class. 1:02:27.960 --> 1:02:31.480 Well no, no no, but I love like that cheesy 1:02:31.840 --> 1:02:36.360 Kidny Loggins. You like kitchen art, Yes, I love kitchen music. 1:02:36.640 --> 1:02:39.919 Yes I do too, Yeah, I do. The Airplay album 1:02:40.000 --> 1:02:42.160 is right up there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:02:42.200 --> 1:02:44.960 It was very nineteen eighty one, which is when it 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:46.000 was yeah. 1:02:45.920 --> 1:02:49.919 All that la musician Toto. Yeah, I live for this stuff. 1:02:49.960 --> 1:02:51.480 Wait are you No? 1:02:51.720 --> 1:02:55.120 Toto was recording next door to us the whole way 1:02:55.160 --> 1:02:58.400 through I Am. We had both studios locked out for 1:02:58.600 --> 1:03:03.720 like a year at sound really er at Hollywood No, yeah, 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:07.040 I Am was cut both at Hollywood Sound and at 1:03:07.800 --> 1:03:11.840 Sunset Sound. I have a good Hollywood Sound story because Verdein, well, 1:03:11.920 --> 1:03:14.720 Michael Jackson was recording next door to us a lot 1:03:14.800 --> 1:03:16.960 of the time. He would record during the day, total 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:22.720 would come in at night, and uh, so Verdein kept saying, 1:03:22.760 --> 1:03:27.160 Michael Jackson wants to meet you, and it just we 1:03:27.320 --> 1:03:29.040 never coincided that we were there. 1:03:29.040 --> 1:03:33.000 At the same time. And I think it was eighty one. 1:03:33.280 --> 1:03:35.920 I guess finally we're there at the same time, and 1:03:36.000 --> 1:03:37.880 he said, let's go right now he's there. 1:03:38.520 --> 1:03:39.080 I go in. 1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:44.600 Michael Jackson stands up, he grabs my hand. We're shaking hands, 1:03:45.360 --> 1:03:49.840 and someone runs into the studio and says, Richard Pryor 1:03:50.040 --> 1:03:53.800 just set himself on fire. Well, and Michael Jackson's hand 1:03:53.960 --> 1:03:56.560 just like went limp in my hand and he like 1:03:56.800 --> 1:03:58.760 fell back, and I thought. 1:03:58.680 --> 1:03:59.520 I gotta go now. 1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:02.640 And that was the only time I met Michael Jackson. 1:04:03.840 --> 1:04:06.840 It was not the lamp at But I remember that, 1:04:07.160 --> 1:04:08.720 were you? Yes? 1:04:09.480 --> 1:04:13.440 Oh for the record, no, but yes, I remember. 1:04:13.520 --> 1:04:13.640 Yo. 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:19.680 That was in April of eighty eighty, was it eighty Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 1:04:19.800 --> 1:04:22.520 that that news hit My aunt like lost it. 1:04:22.720 --> 1:04:24.760 Yeah, that was something else anyway. 1:04:24.960 --> 1:04:28.040 Wait, so then, speaking of Michael Jackson, then we bring 1:04:28.160 --> 1:04:30.320 up Greg Phillip Gangs, who was one of her besties. 1:04:30.560 --> 1:04:33.520 Yeah. Yeah, I'd go way back with him. He we 1:04:33.640 --> 1:04:35.800 love Greg. Yeah, great show. 1:04:35.920 --> 1:04:38.320 Yeah, No, I've heard the podcast. 1:04:40.200 --> 1:04:43.200 But the question, no, I know, you asked him a 1:04:43.280 --> 1:04:46.480 question and I don't he either didn't know the answer 1:04:46.760 --> 1:04:53.000 didn't answer was whether Earth Wind and Fire played on 1:04:53.560 --> 1:04:58.080 their records. Oh, and Ali Willis knows the answer. Yeah, 1:04:59.200 --> 1:05:02.000 tell me, I have to say in my day, yes, 1:05:02.200 --> 1:05:06.600 they did. They played every instrument there were people like Paulino, 1:05:07.080 --> 1:05:10.880 you know, Da Costa was coming in, but they played 1:05:11.440 --> 1:05:17.400 all their stuff. Later it started changing up a few years, 1:05:17.640 --> 1:05:21.240 just a few years later, and I think Maurice was 1:05:21.280 --> 1:05:26.840 also getting conscious of hearing certain things and going what 1:05:26.960 --> 1:05:30.200 we want to sound like this right, which to me 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:31.560 then really. 1:05:33.240 --> 1:05:38.400 Deadened the Uh. Yeah, I think it's impossible. 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:42.040 It's kind of like Doctor Drake like it's I think 1:05:42.080 --> 1:05:45.680 it's impossible because by that point, I mean, after nineteen 1:05:45.720 --> 1:05:47.000 seventy five, they. 1:05:46.920 --> 1:05:48.320 Were such a force on the road. 1:05:48.880 --> 1:05:51.560 Well, I'll give it back an example like the Beach Boys, 1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:56.439 to the point where if as a unit, the Beach 1:05:56.520 --> 1:05:58.720 Boys were always touring on the road and kind of 1:05:58.760 --> 1:06:01.840 Brian was was at home, yeah, maintaining that. 1:06:02.520 --> 1:06:07.160 So I always felt that there were more. 1:06:08.480 --> 1:06:13.400 Whoever could deliver the greatest performance musically on their records 1:06:13.440 --> 1:06:16.640 after nineteen seventy eight could do it. I mean I 1:06:16.720 --> 1:06:18.640 definitely feel it, for I mean on the Raised album, 1:06:19.400 --> 1:06:22.440 on their eighty one Rais album, there's. 1:06:23.280 --> 1:06:26.440 Yeah, by that time it was shifting, but certainly before 1:06:26.640 --> 1:06:28.640 it was absolutely at least when I was. 1:06:28.680 --> 1:06:30.200 There, Yeah, it was all them. 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:33.920 Yeah, So that's always been a question. But Marie kind 1:06:33.920 --> 1:06:37.240 of talked about in this book as well. Okay, so 1:06:38.160 --> 1:06:40.120 I always felt that you were the spiritual whisper. 1:06:41.280 --> 1:06:45.800 You have to tell me about working with Narada Michael 1:06:45.840 --> 1:06:52.080 Walden and is he always like that? Four? Yes? 1:06:53.040 --> 1:06:57.840 Really him, He just cops me. Oh I was thinking 1:06:57.920 --> 1:06:58.560 the other way. 1:06:58.800 --> 1:07:07.640 Oh, he's hype so hyper. Yeah, he's hyper on bang 1:07:07.800 --> 1:07:10.480 bang bang. Every time he talks to me. It's like 1:07:11.560 --> 1:07:13.360 my science teacher from third grade. 1:07:13.920 --> 1:07:16.560 He is. I would say, he's fifty percent that way 1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:17.920 and fifty percent the other way. 1:07:17.920 --> 1:07:22.360 And there's no medal, no medal. He is an unbelievably 1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:22.960 great guy. 1:07:24.560 --> 1:07:25.280 I love him. 1:07:25.560 --> 1:07:32.280 I worked with him recently, but we started when he 1:07:32.440 --> 1:07:35.680 used to open for Patty LaBelle. So when I started 1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:40.800 getting my Patty stuff started, you know, hitting me up, 1:07:40.920 --> 1:07:42.640 let's write together, let's write together. 1:07:43.160 --> 1:07:45.320 And I almost immediately got. 1:07:45.240 --> 1:07:47.840 Sick of songwriting as soon as they started having hits. 1:07:48.280 --> 1:07:51.160 It was just because it was too much everyone and 1:07:51.240 --> 1:07:51.640 their mother. 1:07:52.320 --> 1:07:55.760 Yes, when something would hit, then people knock on your door. Yeah, 1:07:55.800 --> 1:07:58.720 then the pressure to like September. 1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:01.240 Yeah. And I think because I. 1:08:01.360 --> 1:08:04.480 Was so associated with earth, wind and fire, people assumed 1:08:04.520 --> 1:08:07.360 I was just a lyricist that drove me nuts and 1:08:07.440 --> 1:08:09.240 in a lot of earth wind and fire, I was, 1:08:09.400 --> 1:08:13.080 but with no one else was I and it never 1:08:13.280 --> 1:08:17.600 was as interesting for me just writing lyrics as you know, 1:08:18.080 --> 1:08:20.080 versus writing music and lyrics. 1:08:20.840 --> 1:08:23.360 So by the time Narda got to. 1:08:23.400 --> 1:08:27.920 Me, which was after September was out, I was trying 1:08:27.920 --> 1:08:32.880 to weed out who you know, I was writing. I 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:36.280 was getting over one hundred songs cut a year, which 1:08:36.439 --> 1:08:39.439 so I was a machine. I would write five six 1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:41.439 hundred songs a year. I mean I was writing three 1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:42.599 four songs a day. 1:08:43.520 --> 1:08:46.000 Wow, So how do you not get numb from that process? 1:08:46.120 --> 1:08:46.439 I did. 1:08:46.800 --> 1:08:50.759 I stopped enjoying it almost as soon as I had hits. 1:08:50.920 --> 1:08:55.200 How do you know what's your creative process? Because the 1:08:55.360 --> 1:08:57.479 number for you to turn out that many a day, 1:08:57.600 --> 1:08:58.960 it's like, how do you not get it? 1:08:59.680 --> 1:09:03.280 It was mostly writing lyrics and I just started hating it. 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:06.240 It was exciting at first because you get on everyone's album, 1:09:07.000 --> 1:09:10.479 but I didn't think musically most of the time. It's like, 1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:13.360 if I had been co writing the music, Bar five 1:09:13.560 --> 1:09:15.519 would have been somewhere else, you know. 1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:20.519 So it eventually led to it led to really me 1:09:20.680 --> 1:09:23.880 being kind of miserable. The more songs I got cut. 1:09:24.600 --> 1:09:28.599 Between eighty eighty one is when I really started feeling 1:09:28.760 --> 1:09:30.240 like I can't keep doing this. 1:09:30.600 --> 1:09:33.760 Is it's going to make me hate musical Yeah. 1:09:33.920 --> 1:09:41.000 And then eighty three it happened with a Manhattan Transfer song. 1:09:41.120 --> 1:09:45.599 They had me write lyrics. There was a spyro gyra 1:09:45.760 --> 1:09:49.960 song called Shaker Song, and so they had me and 1:09:50.400 --> 1:09:54.599 David Lasley, who was a frequent collaborator of mine incredible. 1:09:55.600 --> 1:09:56.400 Put lyrics to it. 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:58.960 It's like, what are we going to do with with Shaker? 1:09:59.479 --> 1:10:02.080 You know, what what is that? And it took us forever, 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:03.440 you know, we finally. 1:10:03.160 --> 1:10:07.759 Figured out, oh, he can't shaker as opposed to Shaker. 1:10:08.800 --> 1:10:12.880 But what they wanted was a jazz song where every 1:10:13.200 --> 1:10:17.280 single phrase had a lyric to it with very little repeat. 1:10:18.000 --> 1:10:22.120 So it was a four page, single space lyric. 1:10:22.320 --> 1:10:25.519 If it just was that went linear, you know, the 1:10:26.200 --> 1:10:29.640 four lines repeated where Shaker was it would repeat. Otherwise 1:10:30.120 --> 1:10:35.040 it constantly changed. Took forever to write, so they I 1:10:35.160 --> 1:10:37.400 was really good friends with all of them, and they 1:10:37.600 --> 1:10:40.840 called up nineteen eighty one. This was I was already 1:10:40.880 --> 1:10:44.479 at the point of like, I'm not interested in doing 1:10:44.560 --> 1:10:47.439 this anymore. It's just it's too much because we write 1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:51.080 that many songs, what is there to say? And I'm 1:10:51.120 --> 1:10:54.120 writing mostly to music that I didn't care about. 1:10:54.200 --> 1:10:56.840 But I was getting on these huge albums. 1:10:57.680 --> 1:11:02.760 So Tim Howse was the you know, his group, He 1:11:03.160 --> 1:11:05.120 called up and he said, now we want to do 1:11:05.439 --> 1:11:09.280 pick up the pieces Average White Band and so write 1:11:09.280 --> 1:11:12.000 a lyric to that, and we need it like on Monday, 1:11:12.479 --> 1:11:14.960 and it was my birthday that weekend. I'm a huge 1:11:15.040 --> 1:11:18.920 party thrower. That is my number one skills parties way 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:24.439 above music, way above music. So I thought, oh god, 1:11:24.640 --> 1:11:27.000 now I have to do what I did to Shaker Song, 1:11:27.080 --> 1:11:30.840 which was nightmarish. Even though I loved the Shaker song, 1:11:31.280 --> 1:11:34.160 but it was a really hard song to write. So 1:11:34.360 --> 1:11:39.720 you think about Average White Band, you know, it's like, 1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:42.160 oh my god, I got to do this all the 1:11:42.200 --> 1:11:43.040 way through, and I know. 1:11:43.080 --> 1:11:45.440 There can be very few, you know, repeats. 1:11:46.400 --> 1:11:48.120 So it ruined my birthday weekend. 1:11:48.360 --> 1:11:51.679 I just you know, sat there writing around the clock 1:11:52.320 --> 1:11:55.400 and I handed it in and Tim said, oh, we 1:11:55.640 --> 1:12:00.200 just wanted the chorus. Oh yeah, And that was at 1:12:00.240 --> 1:12:03.600 the point where I went, I'm out, I can't do 1:12:03.760 --> 1:12:06.240 this because I also what I was doing is I 1:12:06.280 --> 1:12:08.719 would wipe with a group or you know, an artist, 1:12:09.160 --> 1:12:12.799 and I'd write seven or eight songs and then maybe 1:12:12.880 --> 1:12:13.599 they would do one. 1:12:13.680 --> 1:12:15.280 If you were lucky, they would do one. 1:12:15.880 --> 1:12:19.479 And I just felt like songwriters get so taken advantage of. 1:12:19.520 --> 1:12:23.479 It's not like you're getting Josh Wright and it's you know, 1:12:23.720 --> 1:12:26.640 don't make me do eight songs if you know you 1:12:26.720 --> 1:12:29.160 already got nine songs on the record, So what am 1:12:29.240 --> 1:12:33.000 what am I doing this for? And then pick up 1:12:33.040 --> 1:12:35.880 the pieces that like put it over the top. So 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:39.600 I spent the next two years being completely miserable, but 1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:42.320 still getting a lot of songs cut, which is a 1:12:42.400 --> 1:12:45.360 lot of the reason why I don't know the Angela 1:12:45.400 --> 1:12:48.240 Beaufield song or you know, probably you know tons of 1:12:48.320 --> 1:12:50.080 them because there were so many in there. 1:12:50.840 --> 1:12:55.479 It's so an incredible burden a half because these words 1:12:55.520 --> 1:12:56.519 are just pouring out of you. 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:00.720 I know, I'm presenting this romantic version of like the 1:13:00.880 --> 1:13:02.880 gods are just pouring words out of you, But. 1:13:02.960 --> 1:13:08.280 It's like, but words that you stop caring about between 1:13:08.479 --> 1:13:11.320 writing so much and not caring about some of the music, 1:13:11.439 --> 1:13:14.040 feeling that the music could have been so much better. 1:13:14.200 --> 1:13:18.040 So when something doesn't make it, where is it in 1:13:18.160 --> 1:13:18.719 the garbage? 1:13:18.760 --> 1:13:20.679 Can you didn't know somebody else? 1:13:21.400 --> 1:13:24.120 No, No, well yeah, oh no. 1:13:24.439 --> 1:13:27.200 I mean for every song I have out, there are 1:13:27.439 --> 1:13:31.680 ten others sitting there. Nothing happens with them, especially if 1:13:31.720 --> 1:13:33.960 it's not music that you thought was that great and 1:13:34.240 --> 1:13:35.080 you were writing with. 1:13:35.160 --> 1:13:39.519 A specific artist. So no, it was. 1:13:39.600 --> 1:13:44.040 There were hundreds of songs, just like you know, dead Fish, 1:13:44.479 --> 1:13:45.479 you know that. 1:13:45.720 --> 1:13:45.920 It was. 1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:49.320 It was literally like, where is that? Pick up the pieces? 1:13:49.960 --> 1:13:52.360 I'm I'm the world's biggest average white band. Fin Yeah, 1:13:52.439 --> 1:13:54.519 So just as a completist, where is that? 1:13:55.120 --> 1:13:57.560 I'm sure I've got it somewhere. 1:13:58.479 --> 1:14:02.120 You know I have it, but you know, And so 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:06.759 I decided right there and then something has to change. 1:14:07.200 --> 1:14:12.720 Took me a couple years, but out of total frustration, 1:14:12.960 --> 1:14:15.840 I started to paint. And I was writing working with 1:14:15.960 --> 1:14:19.559 one of the go gos at the time, and Jane 1:14:19.600 --> 1:14:23.680 Weedling guitar, and she came in the very next day 1:14:23.720 --> 1:14:27.880 and bought my first painting. So I thought, oh my god, 1:14:27.920 --> 1:14:30.519 I have this built in you know, music audience. I'm 1:14:30.520 --> 1:14:32.879 going to keep doing this. So I just started painting. 1:14:34.160 --> 1:14:38.080 It led to a lot of like sculptural things and whatever, 1:14:38.280 --> 1:14:40.560 and that's what I mainly did in the eighties. I 1:14:40.680 --> 1:14:43.800 was still writing, but the art was the main thing, 1:14:43.960 --> 1:14:46.160 and I wanted to combine the art and the music. 1:14:46.280 --> 1:14:51.519 So Neutron Dance became the very first motorized piece that 1:14:51.680 --> 1:14:55.400 I did. So I had I wanted to get the kick, sure, 1:14:55.439 --> 1:14:58.679 I'm on the record to trigger the movement. Couldn't figure 1:14:58.760 --> 1:15:02.320 that out though, So it was mainly my interpretations of 1:15:02.439 --> 1:15:05.479 what the songs were and I would cut out you know, 1:15:05.640 --> 1:15:09.720 people and buildings and everything would be moving. I did 1:15:09.960 --> 1:15:12.599 Neutron Dance that way. I then went back. I did 1:15:12.680 --> 1:15:15.320 Boogie Wonderland. I did what have I done to deserve this? 1:15:16.160 --> 1:15:21.040 And the biggest fan of my motorized art was James Brown. Really, yeah, 1:15:21.200 --> 1:15:23.600 that was and I have video of every inch of 1:15:23.720 --> 1:15:25.800 him ever, like being in my house. 1:15:26.560 --> 1:15:28.120 Because she said you had a story, because he was 1:15:28.160 --> 1:15:29.439 the reason that you started. 1:15:30.120 --> 1:15:33.800 Well, James, you know, I always collected memorabilia, and I 1:15:33.960 --> 1:15:39.760 loved black memorabilia, specifically late sixties, early seventies, massive afros, 1:15:39.840 --> 1:15:41.160 the fashions. 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:44.240 Talk about what's what's in your Oh my god, it's 1:15:44.280 --> 1:15:44.960 unspeakable now. 1:15:45.040 --> 1:15:49.160 But yeah, on speaking, you need a trip to Willis Wonderland, that's. 1:15:49.000 --> 1:15:49.559 What you next. 1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:56.080 Elli, Uh, but you know, I wasn't originally, you know, 1:15:56.360 --> 1:15:56.680 I was. 1:15:56.920 --> 1:15:59.679 There were sambos in there, there were mammy's and James 1:15:59.720 --> 1:16:04.400 Brown went around my house. He asked me for a 1:16:04.880 --> 1:16:09.240 grocery bag. Oh yes, James gave him a Brown grocery bag. 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:13.760 And now, but mostly my stuff was the massive afros, 1:16:13.800 --> 1:16:16.560 but there were Jemima's in there and other things. And 1:16:17.040 --> 1:16:19.600 he would go and he would pick it up and 1:16:19.720 --> 1:16:21.640 he'd hold it about four feet in the air, and 1:16:21.680 --> 1:16:23.519 then he'd go bing and he'd let. 1:16:23.439 --> 1:16:25.320 His hand go and you could hear it smashing in 1:16:25.439 --> 1:16:27.920 the bag. So I have the bag too. I have 1:16:28.000 --> 1:16:29.160 all the smashed pieces. 1:16:29.880 --> 1:16:32.360 So that's like an art piece you could make. 1:16:32.680 --> 1:16:35.360 Yeah, no, I know, I know. So uh. 1:16:36.080 --> 1:16:38.680 He was the one that really said this stuff is 1:16:38.760 --> 1:16:39.280 not cool. 1:16:40.080 --> 1:16:43.360 And but the rest of my stuff, he said, you 1:16:43.600 --> 1:16:48.800 have to keep collecting this because black people did not 1:16:49.080 --> 1:16:51.640 know these things were around. There wasn't enough money to 1:16:51.800 --> 1:16:56.080 distribute stuff. So if something was made in Detroit, it 1:16:56.200 --> 1:17:00.200 wasn't going to get past Cleveland. And very specifically a 1:17:00.200 --> 1:17:04.360 couple of games that I had, one called Slangling nineteen 1:17:04.439 --> 1:17:08.320 sixty nine made in Detroit. I think Irene Carter is 1:17:08.439 --> 1:17:14.040 the company at Black bingo. So instead of b I NGO, 1:17:14.200 --> 1:17:18.879 it's b L A C K and yeah. And instead 1:17:18.920 --> 1:17:23.280 of that middle free space, it's we are free people. 1:17:23.479 --> 1:17:23.759 Wow. 1:17:24.400 --> 1:17:29.200 And then instead of the numbers, it's Chitlin's Wo Funky 1:17:29.320 --> 1:17:31.760 Broadway Cadillac. 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:37.439 Gold Tooth. I mean, amazing stuff it is. We're here 1:17:37.520 --> 1:17:38.479 right now from the Smithson. 1:17:39.680 --> 1:17:41.679 Have you talked to Smithsonian about some of your stuff? 1:17:41.760 --> 1:17:41.800 No? 1:17:42.200 --> 1:17:44.639 You know, You're like, you know, no, I'm I'm ready 1:17:44.720 --> 1:17:45.120 to talk. 1:17:45.560 --> 1:17:47.640 Yeah, I have to make an introduction to Timothy and 1:17:48.040 --> 1:17:49.680 Burnside at the Smithsonian. 1:17:49.720 --> 1:17:49.840 Who. 1:17:50.040 --> 1:17:53.719 Well, wait, this is an unbelievable conversation because in twenty 1:17:53.880 --> 1:18:01.639 twenty I was supposed to have a pretty major exhibition 1:18:01.920 --> 1:18:04.759 of my collection and my work and how it worked together. 1:18:05.280 --> 1:18:08.280 And this morning before I came here. 1:18:10.120 --> 1:18:13.320 I got a thing that the CEO of the Childs 1:18:13.400 --> 1:18:17.559 Wright African American Museum, which is the second largest African 1:18:17.640 --> 1:18:21.920 American museum next to the Smithsonian now in Detroit. 1:18:21.920 --> 1:18:26.080 She resigned this morning. So there went the exhibition. 1:18:27.120 --> 1:18:34.600 So yeah, yeah, yeah, as soon as we're done, have 1:18:34.640 --> 1:18:35.040 you been there? 1:18:35.960 --> 1:18:36.000 No? 1:18:36.240 --> 1:18:37.960 And I've got a couple of things because I know 1:18:38.040 --> 1:18:40.559 the color purple's there, earth wind and fires in there 1:18:41.240 --> 1:18:42.280 so I'm done. 1:18:42.120 --> 1:18:44.559 And they have a like mammy section and a sand 1:18:44.640 --> 1:18:47.719 boat explaining about this, so you would really yeah. 1:18:47.680 --> 1:18:48.600 Oh I would love it. 1:18:48.960 --> 1:18:51.599 But my stuff is all like one of my favorite 1:18:51.600 --> 1:18:54.120 things is it's a do it It's called the do 1:18:54.280 --> 1:18:55.400 it Yourself. 1:18:55.920 --> 1:18:58.880 Black Power coloring kit and. 1:19:01.160 --> 1:19:03.840 I love you, and all it is is a you know, 1:19:03.960 --> 1:19:07.000 you got a puple little paints and then you get 1:19:07.080 --> 1:19:09.920 a figure that starts out as a white. 1:19:09.720 --> 1:19:14.040 Man and you paint him black and. 1:19:14.120 --> 1:19:19.760 He's got his fist. That was sixty eight, I think 1:19:20.560 --> 1:19:21.160 sixty eight. 1:19:22.120 --> 1:19:24.880 I thought I was, Oh no, I. 1:19:26.360 --> 1:19:29.280 Mean and then like talk about the correlation between your 1:19:29.360 --> 1:19:31.240 house and Peewee's house. 1:19:31.680 --> 1:19:34.040 Well that people used to think that I did the set, 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:37.440 which I didn't. We at that time were like inseparable. 1:19:37.560 --> 1:19:41.479 We were best friends, so we had very similar esthetic 1:19:44.560 --> 1:19:47.760 but I actually didn't have anything to do with that. 1:19:48.000 --> 1:19:50.720 I did, though, write the title song that we did 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:55.960 as a duet to Big Adventure, But Danny. 1:19:55.760 --> 1:19:59.320 Elfman, who you know, did all the music. 1:19:59.120 --> 1:20:02.400 For that, said, ain't no one else doing the title song. 1:20:02.479 --> 1:20:06.320 But I do have that the duet between me and Pee. 1:20:06.160 --> 1:20:08.280 Wee, that's the circus one right, The second movie. 1:20:08.720 --> 1:20:10.880 Uh that No, that was Pee Wee's Big Top. 1:20:12.120 --> 1:20:13.200 I was a big Pee wee fan. 1:20:13.400 --> 1:20:17.880 It was Big Adventure was the first. Yeah, you wrote 1:20:17.960 --> 1:20:21.720 lyrics to that theme? Yes? And no no, no, no, no, no, 1:20:21.800 --> 1:20:26.080 no no no that was Mark mothersbow all that because no, 1:20:26.320 --> 1:20:28.759 this music, it is awesome. 1:20:28.840 --> 1:20:32.240 Really yeah no, the only thing that came. 1:20:34.880 --> 1:20:36.880 I just figured you would wake up to that, but 1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:40.600 apparently you just unbelievable. 1:20:40.800 --> 1:20:43.040 That's Marks and Cydney Lauper singing. 1:20:43.200 --> 1:20:46.559 Okay, so no, you're talking about the theme to his television. 1:20:46.640 --> 1:20:49.200 Oh That's what I'm talking about about the theme to 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:49.679 his movie. 1:20:51.280 --> 1:20:54.880 Okay, yeah, yeah, but the the duet did come out 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:58.519 on Warner Brothers. They made five hundred picture discs and 1:20:58.640 --> 1:21:03.360 that's all. So So anyway, Greg filling games playing on 1:21:03.479 --> 1:21:03.760 it too. 1:21:08.960 --> 1:21:12.240 I have a question, since we're on your memorabilia, yeah stuff, 1:21:12.600 --> 1:21:13.719 what's your record collection? 1:21:13.960 --> 1:21:14.000 Like? 1:21:14.320 --> 1:21:14.800 After all? 1:21:16.400 --> 1:21:20.200 You know, like I converted everything to digital because I 1:21:20.320 --> 1:21:24.040 couldn't stand schlepping everything around anymore. I still have my 1:21:24.360 --> 1:21:30.760 favorite favorite favorite albums, mostly Motown, but it's not I 1:21:30.840 --> 1:21:34.360 don't have it out though, but I have a lot. 1:21:34.280 --> 1:21:36.160 Of music memorabilia. 1:21:37.200 --> 1:21:43.600 So, but James Brown was the one who said to me, 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:48.040 you have to keep collecting this stuff. You know, you 1:21:48.120 --> 1:21:50.880 could have a museum with the stuff that you have, 1:21:51.960 --> 1:21:53.160 because people don't know this. 1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:54.800 Stuff is in existence. 1:21:55.640 --> 1:22:00.280 So I you know, it was the Godfather saying collect act. 1:22:00.720 --> 1:22:01.920 So I just kept going. 1:22:02.240 --> 1:22:05.160 So you just collect any type of kitchen art or 1:22:05.240 --> 1:22:06.400 pop culture or everything. 1:22:07.080 --> 1:22:10.680 Well, it's very specifically the periods. I used to be 1:22:10.800 --> 1:22:17.120 most interested in the fifties. Now way more interested in sixties, seventies. Uh, 1:22:18.160 --> 1:22:24.639 kind of soul stuff, atomic stuff, Kitch stuff. The Kitch 1:22:24.680 --> 1:22:29.040 stuff didn't happen until later. I hated Kitch, but then 1:22:29.080 --> 1:22:30.120 I art directed. 1:22:30.160 --> 1:22:32.400 Why I just didn't it. 1:22:32.520 --> 1:22:37.679 Was too I was into like more like fantastic design, 1:22:38.479 --> 1:22:42.320 and Kitch kind of was open poker. No, I wasn't 1:22:42.439 --> 1:22:46.360 into that stuff, but then I art directed and production 1:22:46.560 --> 1:22:51.120 designed Julia Julie Brown, Yeahrown, Yeah, the Julie. 1:22:50.880 --> 1:22:54.080 Brown Show, which was the very first Downtown No the 1:22:54.120 --> 1:22:58.599 white one White there were ones. Yeah, yeah, I used 1:22:58.600 --> 1:22:59.800 to watch that show. No, she was good. 1:23:00.120 --> 1:23:02.639 Yeah, and it was it was the very first MTV 1:23:02.840 --> 1:23:06.360 clip show where someone was commenting on videos, so we 1:23:06.400 --> 1:23:08.600 would make fun you know of all the. 1:23:10.240 --> 1:23:10.839 The videos. 1:23:11.760 --> 1:23:16.120 Yes, yeah, and and and so that set had to 1:23:16.200 --> 1:23:19.000 be really kitchy and me and her, I remember we 1:23:19.120 --> 1:23:22.240 went to the Long Beach Swamp Meet and there was 1:23:22.320 --> 1:23:26.759 a painting of two clowns drinking a cup of coffee, 1:23:27.439 --> 1:23:30.519 and I thought, there's something hideous about this, but I 1:23:30.640 --> 1:23:34.360 knew it was right for her set and my deal 1:23:34.439 --> 1:23:37.120 because there was no budget. We would shoot ten shows 1:23:37.720 --> 1:23:41.040 in three days, and we did, like, you know, like 1:23:41.120 --> 1:23:44.280 every three months we would do another ten shows. And 1:23:46.240 --> 1:23:49.479 I we bought that painting and I just went I 1:23:49.560 --> 1:23:52.759 could feel it that I just had crossed a line. 1:23:53.439 --> 1:23:56.240 And then I went crazy because it became this whole 1:23:56.320 --> 1:23:59.880 new thing to collect, you know, so like I can 1:24:00.080 --> 1:24:03.559 hit her that black Power statuette part of my kitch collection, 1:24:04.520 --> 1:24:08.280 because they could have made him tan to start out with. 1:24:08.439 --> 1:24:10.679 They didn't need to make him like pure white. 1:24:11.479 --> 1:24:11.640 You know. 1:24:11.920 --> 1:24:14.920 I see so a lot of stuff like that. 1:24:15.120 --> 1:24:19.920 Like I have the unbelievably great graphic on these pantyhose 1:24:20.880 --> 1:24:24.840 called Touch a Soul, and you know, it's this almost 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:27.880 nude woman almost like she's praying and she's in the 1:24:27.960 --> 1:24:30.599 middle of like this you know, red green and black 1:24:31.680 --> 1:24:35.160 circle thing. But then the shade of the pantyhose is 1:24:35.320 --> 1:24:40.000 off black, which is not right right, you know. And 1:24:40.520 --> 1:24:44.280 the Supremes, you know, the Supremes had white bread out, 1:24:45.360 --> 1:24:48.520 so I've got the bread wrapper. 1:24:50.120 --> 1:24:53.240 White bread, and they got killed for it. 1:24:53.439 --> 1:24:58.120 I have Mary Wilson on film talking about how they 1:24:58.640 --> 1:25:03.599 just you know, it killed them because the pumpernickel raw. 1:25:04.240 --> 1:25:06.400 But it wasn't a choice they have made. They couldn't. 1:25:06.439 --> 1:25:10.160 I mean, I know, but literally Supremes white bread. 1:25:10.479 --> 1:25:11.479 I mean, it's un. 1:25:13.240 --> 1:25:15.920 Were you always the visual art piece? I want to 1:25:15.960 --> 1:25:17.879 say that we see today as far as wardrobe. 1:25:18.760 --> 1:25:20.800 Once I got on my own, once I started cutting 1:25:20.920 --> 1:25:25.479 my record in nineteen seventy two, is when the clothing, 1:25:25.600 --> 1:25:28.920 Oh so you were just I was yeah, before that, 1:25:29.160 --> 1:25:32.360 I was like, you know, what would a college girl wear? 1:25:33.160 --> 1:25:36.639 You know, like not expressive at all. And then someone 1:25:36.680 --> 1:25:39.479 took me to a thrift shop and my life changed. 1:25:39.920 --> 1:25:42.559 Wait for me forget understand what was the print story? 1:25:45.040 --> 1:25:47.840 So well, we've kind of ruined the impact of the 1:25:47.920 --> 1:25:51.479 story because we know who it is now. But there 1:25:51.640 --> 1:25:54.960 was this kid that always hung around earth Wind and 1:25:55.000 --> 1:25:57.360 Fire had their own label when I Am came out, 1:25:57.479 --> 1:26:02.880 called Arc, and there was this weird kid always hung 1:26:02.960 --> 1:26:05.760 around the office, didn't talk to anyone, but he was 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:11.120 there one hundred percent of Yeah. And I. 1:26:13.800 --> 1:26:16.639 I had heard all of the I Am album complete, 1:26:16.680 --> 1:26:17.240 but I never. 1:26:17.200 --> 1:26:18.200 Heard it sequenced. 1:26:19.400 --> 1:26:22.920 So when I got the call come up Maurice's you 1:26:23.000 --> 1:26:25.720 know they're on the road. Go in Maurice's office, it 1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:26.040 was a. 1:26:26.080 --> 1:26:29.360 Reel to reel and you can hear the album sequence. 1:26:29.720 --> 1:26:32.200 I knew this was going to be an incredibly emotional 1:26:33.160 --> 1:26:35.960 thing for me because I knew this album was going 1:26:36.000 --> 1:26:37.240 to change my life. 1:26:37.680 --> 1:26:39.880 You know, I'm still on food stamps. 1:26:39.520 --> 1:26:41.040 At this time. Okay, So. 1:26:43.040 --> 1:26:46.400 I go in in the whole like a couple days before. 1:26:46.520 --> 1:26:48.880 I'm like so excited, and this is I'm going to 1:26:48.920 --> 1:26:52.479 be in Maurice's office when I have this moment to myself, 1:26:52.560 --> 1:26:53.400 I'm going to cry. 1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:54.920 It's going to be unbelievable. 1:26:55.400 --> 1:26:58.080 So I get up there and I'm closing the door 1:26:59.479 --> 1:27:02.920 and someone comes over and says, can't they used to 1:27:02.960 --> 1:27:03.639 call him the kid? 1:27:04.000 --> 1:27:04.719 Can the kid. 1:27:06.400 --> 1:27:07.000 Listen with you? 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:10.240 And I thought, Shit, that's this weird kid and he 1:27:10.479 --> 1:27:15.760 never says anything, And so here's the real to reel. 1:27:16.439 --> 1:27:19.120 Here's the weird kid, maybe four feet back from the 1:27:19.200 --> 1:27:23.040 real to reel I'm back, like at Maurice's desk, so 1:27:23.120 --> 1:27:25.920 I'm maybe eight feet behind him, and I couldn't even 1:27:26.000 --> 1:27:28.680 concentrate on the record. I just kept looking at the 1:27:28.960 --> 1:27:31.240 guy going, fuck you, you know, what are you doing? 1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:36.200 To myself? Like, what are you doing in here? My moment? 1:27:37.400 --> 1:27:39.519 And then four months later, I Want to be your 1:27:39.560 --> 1:27:42.840 lover came out and I went, oh, my fucking god, 1:27:43.040 --> 1:27:46.040 it's Prince. Was there no small talker or anything? Nothing? 1:27:46.680 --> 1:27:48.080 Not a word. 1:27:48.680 --> 1:27:50.360 Did you'll ever circle back to each other? 1:27:50.560 --> 1:27:53.080 Never? No, not a word. 1:27:53.240 --> 1:27:56.559 But you know, there's my Prince story. I'm really good 1:27:56.600 --> 1:27:59.679 friends with Wendy though still. 1:28:00.360 --> 1:28:03.840 But the friends of the show, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:28:05.800 --> 1:28:08.240 you know we there's so much that we missed. 1:28:09.160 --> 1:28:12.400 I actually wanted to know how fast this is gonna 1:28:12.400 --> 1:28:15.320 be the most obscure music question I asked of the day, 1:28:17.479 --> 1:28:19.880 how fast did it take you to write shopping for 1:28:20.040 --> 1:28:20.719 me to see? 1:28:21.400 --> 1:28:21.679 Wow? 1:28:22.120 --> 1:28:25.400 You are pulling them out? Oh wait, you think you're 1:28:25.520 --> 1:28:30.200 just on the show because they told you like he 1:28:30.280 --> 1:28:33.840 wanted history. I just didn't know it was you. 1:28:34.280 --> 1:28:37.000 Well, I didn't write it as fast as The fastest 1:28:37.040 --> 1:28:38.800 song I ever wrote was Neutron Dance. 1:28:39.200 --> 1:28:40.720 That was the fastest. 1:28:42.280 --> 1:28:45.080 That was fifty eight minutes, twenty eight for lyrics and 1:28:45.600 --> 1:28:47.200 thirty two or whatever. 1:28:47.240 --> 1:28:49.519 It is, no weed, How do you remember that? 1:28:50.479 --> 1:28:55.120 Because I did not want to write the song that 1:28:55.280 --> 1:28:57.439 was real. That was the first time I was in 1:28:58.120 --> 1:29:00.120 I had so many hits in a row and I 1:29:00.200 --> 1:29:02.439 had nothing, and it was at a point where I 1:29:02.520 --> 1:29:06.920 was miserable writing and really feeling like I had ruined 1:29:07.000 --> 1:29:07.719 my career. 1:29:09.800 --> 1:29:13.160 And uh, there was should I tell you the Neutron Dancer? 1:29:13.760 --> 1:29:18.559 Okay, that there was a movie called Streets of. 1:29:18.640 --> 1:29:20.639 Fire, yes, Diane Lane. 1:29:21.000 --> 1:29:23.320 But all they told me about this movie was that 1:29:23.439 --> 1:29:26.280 it was a handsome guy, cute girl and a black 1:29:26.439 --> 1:29:28.920 doop band and they're out of town. They're only ones 1:29:28.960 --> 1:29:32.200 to escape a nuclear holocaust. That's all they told at. 1:29:32.280 --> 1:29:34.920 I believe Streets of Fire was the first PG thirteen 1:29:36.439 --> 1:29:40.519 rated film. Yeah, this is where I can Dan Hartman. 1:29:42.720 --> 1:29:46.880 Yeah, well so this was that was the spot that 1:29:47.000 --> 1:29:50.320 it was written for. And it was Joel Silver's first. 1:29:50.240 --> 1:29:52.759 Movie too, okay as a director, right, yeah. 1:29:52.880 --> 1:29:57.840 As a producer, as a producer and anyway, so they 1:29:57.880 --> 1:30:00.280 said write this song. I didn't have any common evidence 1:30:00.320 --> 1:30:04.240 that I could write good anymore. My publisher put me 1:30:04.360 --> 1:30:07.920 with someone who had never written a song before. But 1:30:08.080 --> 1:30:10.639 they signed him because his brother had the biggest record 1:30:10.840 --> 1:30:15.160 of the year of the year before, which was Maniac. Yes, yes, 1:30:16.680 --> 1:30:20.920 but because he was Michael Simbello's little brother. So and 1:30:21.040 --> 1:30:23.400 I only found out that he had never written before 1:30:23.560 --> 1:30:25.679 like five minutes before he was coming over. 1:30:25.920 --> 1:30:30.040 And so when I, well, you're telling me that Danny 1:30:30.080 --> 1:30:31.960 Simbelo's entry into music, he's. 1:30:31.840 --> 1:30:33.719 Written a lot of shit that that was his first 1:30:33.760 --> 1:30:36.080 song was to dance. But you're saying to me that, 1:30:36.360 --> 1:30:38.760 like it was nepotism that got him in the door. 1:30:38.960 --> 1:30:41.760 Absolutely, he would have been the first to tell you 1:30:41.880 --> 1:30:42.280 that too. 1:30:42.560 --> 1:30:45.599 Yeah. Really, yeah, because his name just pops up everywhere 1:30:45.680 --> 1:30:46.559 the addition stuff. 1:30:46.920 --> 1:30:51.640 Yeah, Michael like one of my favorite collaborators ever, so 1:30:51.880 --> 1:30:52.400 is narda. 1:30:52.760 --> 1:30:57.200 But but Danny really unbelievable. It was just a nepotism move. Yes, 1:30:57.360 --> 1:30:58.000 that's crazy. 1:30:58.160 --> 1:31:00.880 And he had been in Stevie Wonders maybe seventeen at 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:03.320 the time, and he had been in Stevie's band since 1:31:03.360 --> 1:31:07.680 he was fifteen. So the only thing I knew was 1:31:07.720 --> 1:31:10.240 that he could play okay, which was great for me 1:31:10.400 --> 1:31:15.240 because I can't play. So I put a timer on 1:31:15.760 --> 1:31:17.400 when he came over, because I said, I only have 1:31:17.479 --> 1:31:20.160 an hour, and I thought, and he came over and 1:31:20.240 --> 1:31:22.760 he had like he had like a little bag lunch 1:31:22.840 --> 1:31:26.919 and he had a hockey uniform on and he was sweating. 1:31:27.000 --> 1:31:29.640 It was just like the worst thing that could have 1:31:29.800 --> 1:31:30.400 happened to me. 1:31:32.200 --> 1:31:34.479 And uh and I knew we had to write for 1:31:34.560 --> 1:31:36.479 a doo wop band, so I just said to him, 1:31:36.520 --> 1:31:39.520 play the tritest fifties. 1:31:39.120 --> 1:31:40.680 Bass line that you could think of. 1:31:41.080 --> 1:31:44.080 And he immediately, you know, boom boom boom boom boom, 1:31:44.120 --> 1:31:46.280 bom bomb ba ba ba ba ba bum bum bum 1:31:46.400 --> 1:31:50.840 bum bomb. And I can sing a melody to anything. 1:31:51.520 --> 1:31:54.120 Start tapping those water bottles together. You'll have a song 1:31:54.200 --> 1:31:59.080 in thirty seconds. So uh we So I know the 1:31:59.200 --> 1:32:02.679 music was done in twenty eight and then we started 1:32:02.760 --> 1:32:06.200 on the lyric and I knew it had to have 1:32:06.479 --> 1:32:11.520 something to do with you know, it was a nuclear holocaust, 1:32:11.680 --> 1:32:15.439 so you know something. There's got to be like burning 1:32:15.600 --> 1:32:17.879 in there or exploding, you know something. 1:32:18.600 --> 1:32:22.040 And I let you to tell you the story because 1:32:22.080 --> 1:32:24.519 I'm like, what does this have to do with Beverly Hills, 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:28.320 cop like, why, well, yeah, yeah, no, I get it. 1:32:28.479 --> 1:32:32.479 No, So we though the original title of Neutron Dance 1:32:32.960 --> 1:32:43.360 was Barbecue. I'm just burning on the barbacue. That was original, 1:32:43.800 --> 1:32:46.519 So I was, you know, this was a song we 1:32:46.600 --> 1:32:49.200 were writing. We weren't writing for a particular artist, so 1:32:49.600 --> 1:32:54.880 I it was very autobiographical because I just I felt like, 1:32:55.040 --> 1:32:57.840 you know, my career is over. What's happening in my life, 1:32:57.920 --> 1:33:00.160 and I knew I had to make a change. If 1:33:00.160 --> 1:33:02.080 I don't get off my ass and do something, it's 1:33:02.160 --> 1:33:05.800 all over. So and that's you know that lyric I 1:33:05.840 --> 1:33:09.080 don't want to stole and all that stuff. Well, there's 1:33:09.200 --> 1:33:14.439 something very exact about that line we wrote the first verse. 1:33:14.479 --> 1:33:16.320 I don't want to take it anymore. I'll just stay here, 1:33:16.400 --> 1:33:18.240 lock behind the door, just no time to stop it. 1:33:18.280 --> 1:33:19.519 Get away works hard to make it. 1:33:19.560 --> 1:33:19.960 Every day. 1:33:20.400 --> 1:33:22.920 I look out of my window and there are two 1:33:23.040 --> 1:33:26.840 kids picking the lock on my nineteen sixty two pink corvetor. 1:33:27.760 --> 1:33:30.759 So I race out of the house and I'm thinking, 1:33:30.800 --> 1:33:32.400 I got to get this kid out of here. 1:33:32.520 --> 1:33:34.080 This song is like a piece of shit. 1:33:34.680 --> 1:33:37.959 So I'm running out of the house into my driveway 1:33:38.040 --> 1:33:40.600 to chase the kids away, and I yelled back the. 1:33:40.680 --> 1:33:44.799 Line, someone stole my brand new Chevrolet, which. 1:33:44.600 --> 1:33:46.439 Is how how that happened. 1:33:47.479 --> 1:33:50.519 Yeah, but they didn't steal it. 1:33:50.560 --> 1:33:52.920 You caught them, No, I caught it, and they were kids, 1:33:53.040 --> 1:33:55.479 so they ran away as soon as I got out there. 1:33:55.880 --> 1:33:57.760 And then by the time I was back because I'm 1:33:57.880 --> 1:34:00.559 just racing, It's like, why am I putting I'm into 1:34:00.640 --> 1:34:01.160 this song? 1:34:01.800 --> 1:34:04.080 My career is over? Who's this kid? 1:34:04.920 --> 1:34:06.400 So then I had in the rent is due. I 1:34:06.479 --> 1:34:09.879 got no place to stay, and so that song was finished. 1:34:09.880 --> 1:34:11.920 He was out of the house in fifty eight minutes. 1:34:12.800 --> 1:34:17.000 Yeah, yeah, and handed it in. They rejected it, you. 1:34:17.040 --> 1:34:19.160 Know from the movie, which to me it was like 1:34:19.280 --> 1:34:21.760 this piece of shit song written in under an hour, 1:34:22.479 --> 1:34:27.120 so didn't surprise me. But my publisher really liked the song, 1:34:27.920 --> 1:34:31.000 got it to the Pointers. Pointers cut it, but it 1:34:31.120 --> 1:34:33.880 was they were at their height. They had already chosen 1:34:34.040 --> 1:34:37.080 five singles off this next album that was coming out. 1:34:37.439 --> 1:34:38.639 How'd you get past Richard Perry? 1:34:39.640 --> 1:34:43.439 I had nothing to do with that at that he 1:34:43.560 --> 1:34:46.840 was like, yeah, that was strict Like, yeah, that was 1:34:46.920 --> 1:34:53.160 strictly my My publisher did that. And anyway, Pointers cut it, 1:34:53.360 --> 1:34:58.519 and then I get a package in the mail that 1:34:58.680 --> 1:35:01.240 had a cassette and a letter from Jerry Bruckheimer. 1:35:01.720 --> 1:35:05.519 He's doing his second movie. They you know, need a 1:35:05.680 --> 1:35:09.160 song that sounds like the song that's on the cassette 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:10.439 and it's Neutron Dance. 1:35:10.520 --> 1:35:12.000 Did he know you from Detroit? 1:35:12.040 --> 1:35:12.439 And he know? 1:35:12.800 --> 1:35:16.479 No? Okay no, But they certainly had to have known 1:35:16.520 --> 1:35:18.880 I was the writer of Neutron Dance and they're sending 1:35:19.000 --> 1:35:22.040 me this thing to copy, which they I knew they 1:35:22.080 --> 1:35:24.920 sent to every writer in LA because all my friends 1:35:25.040 --> 1:35:27.360 were calling me up and everyone knew, Oh it's Eddie 1:35:27.439 --> 1:35:30.200 Murphy that you know this is going to be hot. Yes, 1:35:30.280 --> 1:35:32.679 we're going to write a sound alike to Neutron Dance. 1:35:32.720 --> 1:35:35.160 So is that the process for most soundtracks, at least 1:35:35.160 --> 1:35:38.040 for beck then? Back then that sounds like this. 1:35:38.280 --> 1:35:40.879 Yeah, they put the temp music in, So this explains 1:35:40.920 --> 1:35:45.720 the yes, absolutely, So they sent him I want a 1:35:45.800 --> 1:35:46.320 new drug? 1:35:46.720 --> 1:35:47.840 Right? Yeah? I see. 1:35:48.000 --> 1:35:51.920 And anyway, so I got so sick of my friends 1:35:52.040 --> 1:35:55.120 telling me that they've ripped me off that I called 1:35:55.280 --> 1:35:59.439 Danny up and said come over, And so we stripped 1:35:59.479 --> 1:36:03.840 a Neutron Dance demo down to the drums, used all 1:36:03.920 --> 1:36:10.479 the same sounds, wrote an exact parallel lyric, and handed 1:36:10.560 --> 1:36:17.000 that song in Rejected for Beverly Hills Cop and three 1:36:17.040 --> 1:36:21.840 weeks before the movie came out, I found out that 1:36:21.920 --> 1:36:26.120 Jerry Bruckheimer had gone into his garbage can looking for 1:36:26.200 --> 1:36:30.080 a cassette to tape over put played the first few 1:36:30.240 --> 1:36:34.080 seconds of this song that he pulled out of the garbage. 1:36:34.000 --> 1:36:35.080 And it was Stirred Up. 1:36:36.040 --> 1:36:37.799 So stir it Up and Neutron. 1:36:38.240 --> 1:36:43.400 Yes, ye, listen to the lyric of stir it Up 1:36:43.960 --> 1:36:45.960 and listen to the lyric of Neutron dance. 1:36:46.040 --> 1:36:48.719 And they had they are the exact same song. 1:36:49.479 --> 1:36:51.000 I'm doing something I haven't done it alone. 1:36:55.360 --> 1:36:57.920 A story, Yes, it's yo. 1:36:58.280 --> 1:37:00.639 Yeah, so that's how that, that's how those two. 1:37:00.800 --> 1:37:02.960 That's a crazy story I've heard since the Human Nature 1:37:03.000 --> 1:37:04.680 discovery for Quincy Jones. 1:37:05.600 --> 1:37:06.799 From Steve Picaro. 1:37:07.240 --> 1:37:10.800 Yeah, like, yeah, the cassette was on auto what do 1:37:10.840 --> 1:37:13.000 you call it when it goes to SIDEB automatically? 1:37:13.240 --> 1:37:16.639 Yeah, whatever, It was on side A. Yeah, not from Steve, 1:37:16.720 --> 1:37:18.560 but from the other guys in the group. Yeah, and 1:37:18.640 --> 1:37:23.680 they were recording over his cassette and suddenly, yeah, like. 1:37:26.040 --> 1:37:30.040 From me and Steve wrote a song. Michael Jackson wanted 1:37:30.760 --> 1:37:36.320 a song like Human Nature, and we wrote a song. 1:37:36.400 --> 1:37:40.439 It was my first time working with him, and Steve 1:37:40.640 --> 1:37:44.360 was going to meet him in Las Vegas or something, 1:37:44.760 --> 1:37:50.719 and then Michael Jackson died. So there is a song 1:37:50.960 --> 1:37:55.000 on the new latest Toto album called The Little Things 1:37:55.320 --> 1:37:58.759 that Steve actually sings the lead on that was supposed 1:37:58.760 --> 1:38:01.000 to be the Human Natures Sound Alike that went to 1:38:01.120 --> 1:38:01.880 Michael Jackson. 1:38:01.920 --> 1:38:03.880 I gotta make a note said with the name of 1:38:03.920 --> 1:38:04.519 this again. 1:38:06.960 --> 1:38:11.720 Yeah, so, uh, lots of stories like that. 1:38:12.000 --> 1:38:13.599 Where are we at right now? 1:38:13.960 --> 1:38:17.280 Like, I mean, we passed, but we didn't even get 1:38:17.280 --> 1:38:19.559 to the Color Purple and let's get to the parties 1:38:19.600 --> 1:38:21.120 and the Jennifer Lewis best eason. 1:38:21.479 --> 1:38:25.240 Yeah, well she's one of my best friends and we 1:38:25.400 --> 1:38:26.280 need to show him. 1:38:26.880 --> 1:38:32.280 Just from last week her doing leading a little sing 1:38:32.360 --> 1:38:35.840 along with her book Chanting in order to sell the 1:38:35.960 --> 1:38:36.840 book at. 1:38:36.800 --> 1:38:40.560 Her house Color Purple with a full like choreography, but 1:38:41.240 --> 1:38:42.639 in the back doing a choreography too. 1:38:42.760 --> 1:38:44.840 Yeah, it's a minute a minute. 1:38:46.640 --> 1:38:50.800 What happens if Jennifer Lewis cannot come when I throw 1:38:50.840 --> 1:38:51.240 a party? 1:38:51.360 --> 1:38:52.240 I changed the day? 1:38:52.400 --> 1:38:55.360 What I changed the day? Because she ends up hosting 1:38:55.439 --> 1:38:56.920 the parties with me all the time. 1:38:57.160 --> 1:39:03.599 Jennifer is, Uh, she's she's knowingly responsible for the success 1:39:03.640 --> 1:39:07.800 I'm having with my current book right now. I heard 1:39:08.720 --> 1:39:11.200 usually right before, I didn't want to do an audiobook. 1:39:11.280 --> 1:39:13.240 This is like my fourth book, and I'd like try 1:39:13.320 --> 1:39:18.120 to uh stave off the publisher for making me do 1:39:18.160 --> 1:39:18.479 an audio. 1:39:18.680 --> 1:39:18.840 Yeah. 1:39:18.920 --> 1:39:21.160 Yeah, So once I gave in, then I was like, 1:39:21.200 --> 1:39:22.800 all right, let me do some research because what I 1:39:23.240 --> 1:39:26.040 don't want to bore people with my voice. And someone 1:39:26.120 --> 1:39:28.840 recommended to me listen to how she tells the story 1:39:29.000 --> 1:39:32.840 on her audiobook, and I listened to her. 1:39:33.160 --> 1:39:37.200 You gotta listen to get the audiobook of Jennifer Lewis's 1:39:37.720 --> 1:39:41.000 and Another Mother Black. 1:39:41.760 --> 1:39:45.960 She's the most compelling storyteller, Like she uses her voice inflections. 1:39:46.520 --> 1:39:49.120 So that's the reason why I decided, like, yo, well, 1:39:49.200 --> 1:39:51.759 I don't have the gift of like then. 1:39:52.200 --> 1:39:57.519 I told oh, he's gonna yeah, Like I didn't have that, 1:39:57.680 --> 1:39:59.920 So I figured, like, what's my version of Jennifer Lewis. Oh, 1:40:00.240 --> 1:40:01.000 I'll do skits. 1:40:01.280 --> 1:40:04.040 So like I put, oh, you reacted to actual Well. 1:40:03.960 --> 1:40:06.320 I have like actors and stuff like people like rereading 1:40:06.400 --> 1:40:09.280 and Steve Is. Who are you Steve, I'm Paul McCartney. Yeah, 1:40:09.320 --> 1:40:13.439 Steve is Barbara so like, I owe that to Jennifer 1:40:13.520 --> 1:40:15.160 Luis's face. He's so proud. 1:40:15.360 --> 1:40:18.960 But you know, Jennifer Lewis has a similar type story 1:40:19.160 --> 1:40:22.560 of being inspired by someone in order to get a 1:40:22.880 --> 1:40:25.240 movie part that she got when she went up for 1:40:26.160 --> 1:40:29.720 what's the Disney movie that she's in? Mister No No, 1:40:30.160 --> 1:40:33.640 And the character is Mama Oda. It's one of the 1:40:33.720 --> 1:40:39.040 Disney movies like yes, okay six seven years ago. 1:40:40.400 --> 1:40:41.439 She's been in a lot of shoots. 1:40:41.560 --> 1:40:45.120 Yeah, And she didn't know what voice to use for 1:40:45.240 --> 1:40:48.280 the character. And she owns a lot of my. 1:40:48.640 --> 1:40:52.519 Art that I've done and beautiful by the way. 1:40:52.680 --> 1:40:53.040 Don't you. 1:40:53.840 --> 1:40:57.479 In nineteen ninety nine, I took on an alter ego 1:40:57.640 --> 1:41:02.679 named Bubbles, the artist who I manage, and Jennifer started 1:41:02.720 --> 1:41:04.160 buying up bubbles stuff. 1:41:04.280 --> 1:41:06.759 Ru Paul and Lily Tomlin own the most. 1:41:06.920 --> 1:41:08.479 They battle each other. 1:41:08.680 --> 1:41:10.360 Are you saying? Have they ever been in the rooms? 1:41:10.400 --> 1:41:11.599 All these people been in the room. 1:41:13.520 --> 1:41:14.120 All together? 1:41:14.320 --> 1:41:15.800 Oh my god, all die. 1:41:18.120 --> 1:41:21.760 No, it wasn't cars. It was like the Princess, Prince, 1:41:22.520 --> 1:41:28.040 Princess and the Princess. Okay, that's it. So anyway, So 1:41:28.240 --> 1:41:31.080 one of the paintings of mine that she owns by 1:41:31.200 --> 1:41:34.840 Bubbles the artist who I manage but is actually me. 1:41:36.560 --> 1:41:38.479 Is a thing of moms maybly. 1:41:39.320 --> 1:41:43.720 So Jennifer goes to the audition and she has no 1:41:44.040 --> 1:41:47.880 idea what to do, what voice to do, and she 1:41:48.040 --> 1:41:51.400 said she flashed on the painting of Moms. And so 1:41:51.479 --> 1:41:56.000 if you listen to her character in that movie, it 1:41:56.160 --> 1:41:57.360 is Mom's maybe. 1:41:57.439 --> 1:42:00.360 She goes, yeah, I used to listen to tapes of 1:42:00.400 --> 1:42:02.600 moms maybe my dad driving a school. 1:42:02.400 --> 1:42:05.360 Like incredible, incredible, And you painted her? 1:42:05.840 --> 1:42:09.240 Yeah, I loved moms. Man, Well, bubbles painted her. 1:42:09.280 --> 1:42:09.759 I mean bubbles. 1:42:10.040 --> 1:42:18.680 I just managed, right, Okay, it would it would actually uh, 1:42:18.800 --> 1:42:24.160 I'd be remiss if I didn't mention obviously. Well, okay, 1:42:24.880 --> 1:42:27.439 I'm certain that you're going to say, yeah, I wrote 1:42:27.479 --> 1:42:30.040 it in five minutes, didn't mean anything to me, just 1:42:30.439 --> 1:42:33.639 and it just became one of the biggest theme songs. 1:42:34.479 --> 1:42:37.800 When did you actually write remembrance I'll be there for you. 1:42:38.160 --> 1:42:41.919 Re brands, brands, I'm sorry that was written in nineteen 1:42:42.080 --> 1:42:42.760 ninety four. 1:42:43.120 --> 1:42:46.640 I did not really didn't want to be a songwriter 1:42:46.800 --> 1:42:50.960 anymore because I had gotten onto the internet in nineteen 1:42:51.040 --> 1:42:55.360 ninety one, came up with a concept for social Yeah yeah, 1:42:55.439 --> 1:43:00.400 social network In nineteen ninety two, my CEO became Mark 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:04.120 Cuban and no one understood. 1:43:04.360 --> 1:43:06.400 So explain the concept because back then it was the 1:43:06.479 --> 1:43:07.679 super Information Highway. 1:43:07.760 --> 1:43:08.200 Lest Yeah. 1:43:08.960 --> 1:43:11.240 I wanted to take anything that could be done in 1:43:11.360 --> 1:43:13.920 an online environment, which was not a lot, and there 1:43:14.000 --> 1:43:16.519 was maybe one of each of these things, but you 1:43:16.600 --> 1:43:20.559 could sell things, you could play games, you could do email, 1:43:22.720 --> 1:43:24.960 you know, it was very limited stuff. I wanted to 1:43:25.040 --> 1:43:29.479 take everything, combine it together in one place, which wasn't done. 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:32.439 Then if you shopped for the one car. 1:43:32.479 --> 1:43:35.120 That maybe was online, you'd have to take ten minutes, 1:43:35.640 --> 1:43:38.160 log off, then go to where you would you know, 1:43:38.280 --> 1:43:40.639 play a game. You were always in this black hole 1:43:41.320 --> 1:43:45.160 of cyberspace. So I wanted to combine everything. I'm the 1:43:45.240 --> 1:43:49.439 first one ever that said the Internet is a social place, 1:43:50.040 --> 1:43:53.439 that this is about people connecting to each other. So 1:43:53.560 --> 1:43:56.640 there could be collaborations and there could be friendships, and 1:43:56.720 --> 1:43:59.559 there could be all this kind of stuff. And at 1:43:59.600 --> 1:44:02.120 the same time, you could sell them cars, and they 1:44:02.200 --> 1:44:05.800 could collaborate with each other, and they could get information, 1:44:06.000 --> 1:44:07.040 they could do anything. 1:44:07.560 --> 1:44:08.600 And we're going to create this. 1:44:08.760 --> 1:44:13.360 Fictional community inhabited by these fictional characters who are going 1:44:13.439 --> 1:44:18.040 to be the guides into cyberspace for people who in 1:44:18.160 --> 1:44:22.320 nineteen ninety two did not understand what cyberspace was. And 1:44:22.400 --> 1:44:25.600 I prototyped it throughout the nineties, but we were just 1:44:25.680 --> 1:44:28.719 too early. No one knew what we were talking. 1:44:28.600 --> 1:44:33.120 As Mark Zuckerberg, No, we were likely. 1:44:33.479 --> 1:44:36.800 Yeah, when you discovered Friendster. 1:44:36.600 --> 1:44:41.280 And and well that I had a ton of resentment 1:44:41.439 --> 1:44:44.760 that took me forever to get over because all those 1:44:44.920 --> 1:44:48.879 they ignored the issues that we couldn't solve and therefore 1:44:49.000 --> 1:44:49.560 didn't do it. 1:44:50.280 --> 1:44:53.760 What happens to copyrights? What about privacy? 1:44:54.280 --> 1:44:57.720 And we just didn't know the answer to it, you know, 1:44:58.000 --> 1:45:02.640 still damn But so I was interested in that, and 1:45:02.840 --> 1:45:05.760 I still had a publishing deal to you know, a 1:45:05.880 --> 1:45:09.479 quota to fulfill, and quotas had never been I'd never 1:45:09.600 --> 1:45:11.360 had one before, but it never would have been a 1:45:11.439 --> 1:45:14.760 problem in the old days. But now I'm interested in 1:45:15.000 --> 1:45:20.240 something that's nonlinear, that's totally interactive, and I'm not interested 1:45:20.280 --> 1:45:22.360 in a three minute song that goes from here to 1:45:22.439 --> 1:45:24.920 here and the artist is the only one that has 1:45:24.960 --> 1:45:27.719 to say in it. I'm interested in what is music 1:45:27.840 --> 1:45:31.160 now that anyone from anywhere can impact what it is 1:45:31.280 --> 1:45:35.360 you're creating. So every time I thought I'd written enough songs, 1:45:35.479 --> 1:45:38.639 the publisher would say, no, you know you haven't. Finally 1:45:38.680 --> 1:45:42.200 got down to iota seventh of a song and they said, 1:45:42.240 --> 1:45:43.880 there's this TV show coming out. 1:45:44.040 --> 1:45:46.080 No one thinks it's going to be a hit. Write 1:45:46.120 --> 1:45:47.280 this year out of your deal. 1:45:48.080 --> 1:45:51.040 So shit. 1:45:51.640 --> 1:45:55.840 So the music Michael Skloff had written already, he was 1:45:55.960 --> 1:45:59.880 married to one of the producers, right, and gave me 1:46:00.000 --> 1:46:03.680 the song. I thought, this is the whitest thing I 1:46:03.760 --> 1:46:06.479 have ever heard in my life. It's going to ruin 1:46:06.600 --> 1:46:09.240 my career. But everyone said, don't worry, because who's going 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:09.680 to hear this? 1:46:09.880 --> 1:46:10.840 No one's ever gonna hear it. 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:15.880 Yeah, And so I handed it in and it blew 1:46:16.160 --> 1:46:20.920 up instantly, And so it was a forty five second 1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:25.519 thing that a disc jockey in Nashville made a cassette 1:46:25.840 --> 1:46:29.200 of and played it back to back for forty five minutes. 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:33.040 Rembrands got it because they were the only band signed 1:46:33.040 --> 1:46:35.120 to Warner Brothers who were. 1:46:35.080 --> 1:46:37.880 In LA at that time that weren't on tour. 1:46:38.520 --> 1:46:42.320 So no one, yeah, no one associated with this song 1:46:42.520 --> 1:46:47.759 really wanted anything to do with it. And it became 1:46:47.880 --> 1:46:49.439 the biggest airplay record in. 1:46:49.520 --> 1:46:53.960 Nineteen ninety four. It was unbelievable. So for me, that 1:46:54.160 --> 1:46:56.320 was the official end of my publishing deal. 1:46:56.439 --> 1:46:59.439 So it was perceived that I'm going out on a 1:46:59.560 --> 1:47:03.360 high note, when in fact I was like barely crawling, 1:47:04.000 --> 1:47:08.200 you know, yeah, because I wanted to do this cyberspace. 1:47:07.600 --> 1:47:09.599 Thing and no one knew what I was talking about. 1:47:10.400 --> 1:47:14.439 So so that was just whatever. 1:47:14.640 --> 1:47:16.160 It was a gift, total gift. 1:47:16.200 --> 1:47:20.479 Okay. So in the ending, can you confirm or not 1:47:20.600 --> 1:47:24.960 confirmed for me that one song can change your life, 1:47:25.600 --> 1:47:29.719 because usually movies, movies and TV gives you this impression 1:47:29.840 --> 1:47:32.960 like that one hit single you could just live off that. 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:36.320 Oh that's not true. Yeah, that's not true at all. 1:47:37.439 --> 1:47:44.760 It's like if if you only wrote September, well, if 1:47:44.800 --> 1:47:48.360 I had to only the modest life, yeah, if I yes, 1:47:48.800 --> 1:47:51.280 if I had only written simptem, I do live a 1:47:51.400 --> 1:47:55.439 modest life because I'm a self financed artist. 1:47:56.000 --> 1:47:58.080 So any of these other ideas, I get. 1:47:58.320 --> 1:48:01.799 It's that song and a few others that are carrying 1:48:01.920 --> 1:48:06.680 the whole thing, you know along. But yeah, I mean, 1:48:06.760 --> 1:48:08.960 I think if you wrote it by yourself, if you 1:48:09.080 --> 1:48:12.479 produced it, if you sang it, you know, may and 1:48:12.600 --> 1:48:17.160 it was a gigantic kit that remained a classic. You 1:48:17.320 --> 1:48:22.240 could probably live a comfortable life, but those things happening 1:48:22.320 --> 1:48:24.240 at the same time are so rare. 1:48:25.320 --> 1:48:31.040 Uh that yeah, Michael Jackson, I know that. Yeah, No, 1:48:31.200 --> 1:48:33.439 I know that's so you got to you gotta write it, 1:48:33.520 --> 1:48:34.080 you gotta. 1:48:34.000 --> 1:48:37.080 Just you gotta do everything. And I was never in 1:48:37.200 --> 1:48:37.799 that position. 1:48:38.080 --> 1:48:40.439 You know, You're always a collaborator and one fourth of them. 1:48:40.600 --> 1:48:43.360 Yeah, and you know the publishing, like if you write 1:48:43.400 --> 1:48:46.560 for TV that that publishing is gone, you know. 1:48:47.479 --> 1:48:47.679 Yeah. 1:48:47.840 --> 1:48:49.720 So and an Earth Wind and Fire those were my 1:48:49.800 --> 1:48:52.679 first songs, so I got less of a writer's share 1:48:53.600 --> 1:48:54.439 than I should have. 1:48:55.280 --> 1:48:58.640 And my publishing was owned by A and M. So 1:48:59.520 --> 1:49:02.719 you know, everyone gets their cut. Oh yeah, lunch money, 1:49:03.560 --> 1:49:09.960 I see. Yeah, so okay, yeah, I see, Okay. 1:49:11.120 --> 1:49:16.000 Gun to your Head the three songs that you're the proudest. 1:49:16.040 --> 1:49:18.880 So I'm really salty. There're so we didn't talk about 1:49:18.920 --> 1:49:19.840 all American girls. 1:49:19.920 --> 1:49:21.479 We didn't talk about Well, she's going to invite us 1:49:21.479 --> 1:49:26.680 to her house, so maybe because we can invite Jennifer Lewis. Yes, 1:49:26.880 --> 1:49:29.200 oh my god, yeah, I'm getting emotional. 1:49:31.200 --> 1:49:31.880 To go. 1:49:32.600 --> 1:49:33.479 I would like to do that. 1:49:34.080 --> 1:49:35.599 Ever, she lives really close. 1:49:36.760 --> 1:49:37.479 Yeah, I'll meet you. 1:49:37.840 --> 1:49:41.080 Got to make it happen. Okay, yeah you're out there, so. 1:49:41.439 --> 1:49:42.679 No, but we're gonna do it this year. 1:49:42.920 --> 1:49:47.960 We're ready, ready. Well, I thank you, thank you. This 1:49:48.200 --> 1:49:51.280 is wow. I could forever. Well. 1:49:51.360 --> 1:49:53.840 I'm so impressed with what you know. I always knew 1:49:53.920 --> 1:49:56.240 that you knew a lot of stuff, but you were 1:49:56.320 --> 1:49:57.879 digging them out from the bottom. 1:49:58.960 --> 1:50:04.040 I'm really well in Boss Bill and Fantigolo and Unpaid Bill. 1:50:04.479 --> 1:50:08.400 You missed eight Newsy today, Like I feel like I'm 1:50:08.439 --> 1:50:13.160 the least knowledgeable of the six of us on the show. 1:50:13.400 --> 1:50:15.040 So wow, that's some bullshit. 1:50:15.080 --> 1:50:15.640 He don't feel like that. 1:50:16.479 --> 1:50:18.599 I mean, if Bill and Fante were here, I barely 1:50:18.600 --> 1:50:19.160 get a word of it. 1:50:19.160 --> 1:50:20.800 But yeah, Fante would take Yeah he would have too. 1:50:21.000 --> 1:50:24.679 I mean they'd be freaking out over you know. Oh God, 1:50:24.760 --> 1:50:28.320 you wrote I should have loved you. Oh yeah, Jesus Christ. 1:50:28.439 --> 1:50:29.280 That should have been a continent. 1:50:30.840 --> 1:50:34.840 The bass player was Yeah, and Randy was seventeen years old. Yeah, 1:50:35.040 --> 1:50:35.759 Randy Jackson. 1:50:36.400 --> 1:50:37.800 We have him on the show coming up to. 1:50:38.040 --> 1:50:41.280 Yeah, it was seventeen years old when he first played that, 1:50:41.400 --> 1:50:43.880 and he sounds so much like Bernard Edwards anyway. 1:50:44.120 --> 1:50:46.760 Yeah, yeah, I think that was conscious too. I think 1:50:46.800 --> 1:50:47.960 we were talking about that. 1:50:48.600 --> 1:50:51.400 Yeah, it felt like she grew. Yeah, all right, anyway, 1:50:51.600 --> 1:50:54.519 I thank you very much for coming on, ladies and gentlemen. 1:50:54.720 --> 1:50:57.439 He will legendary status right here. 1:50:57.760 --> 1:51:04.400 Sorry, riding Hall of Fame twenty eighteen fame. We've we've 1:51:04.520 --> 1:51:09.400 lost to our yeah world, So it's nice knowing you. 1:51:10.200 --> 1:51:17.599 You by anyway, This is use of course, Love Supreme 1:51:18.360 --> 1:51:19.839 the next go round. I'll see. 1:51:22.040 --> 1:51:34.120 H h h h. 1:51:35.600 --> 1:51:35.840 Court. 1:51:35.920 --> 1:51:39.799 Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode 1:51:39.960 --> 1:51:47.000 was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts 1:51:47.000 --> 1:51:50.560 from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1:51:51.000 --> 1:51:52.719 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.