Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't
Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you
Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,
Speaker 1: or scouting for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to
Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at
Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T L
Speaker 1: I T E dot com. All right, everybody, we're joined
Speaker 1: today by John Stallone and Charles Whitman from Howell for Wildlife,
Speaker 1: which is an organization you hear more and more about
Speaker 1: as they have been heavily involved in some of the
Speaker 1: fights to preserve our hunting rights around the country.
Speaker 2: Welcome guys, Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3: Thanks, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: I know that. I think my first introduction to you
Speaker 1: guys was was uh. Jannis was one of the first
Speaker 1: people I heard mentioned in it, and he would maybe
Speaker 1: I had heard of you, but doing trivia a long
Speaker 1: time ago. I think Gianni's made a donation the Hole
Speaker 1: for Wildlife and uh, and so he brought you guys
Speaker 1: onto our radar. Then increasingly you guys have come up
Speaker 1: in conversations and stuff you're working on around the Colorado
Speaker 1: Hunting Band vote, coming up with some other issues. So
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to spend some time with you guys
Speaker 1: talking about uh, some things that have happened, some things
Speaker 1: that might happened in the efforts to preserve everyone's hunting rights.
Speaker 1: So we will get to that shortly. Thanks for coming.
Speaker 1: Meet it or TV YouTube channel now, not to be
Speaker 1: confused with the YouTube channel where you watch our podcast network,
Speaker 1: which now has its own channel. Tell him Krinn.
Speaker 4: All right, So we've got a new podcast network, Meet
Speaker 4: Eater podcast Network YouTube channel, which is distinct from the
Speaker 4: Meet Eater TV YouTube channel and the mediat podcast network
Speaker 4: channel on YouTube is going to be the place where
Speaker 4: you can listen to and importantly watch all of our
Speaker 4: all of the network podcasts. And if you are watching
Speaker 4: us right now, that means you're already on that channel.
Speaker 4: But please make sure you give it yeah welcome. Please
Speaker 4: make sure you give a subscribe as well so that
Speaker 4: when these pop up, you'll you'll get those alerts.
Speaker 1: If on the regular channel, on the regular Mediator TV
Speaker 1: YouTube channel, go right now and check out white tail edu.
Speaker 1: So in this world you got ed not great, which
Speaker 1: gets a lot at You got eed C, which is
Speaker 1: your pocket night. I remember when that didn't exist. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would just it was a pocket knife. Now it's
Speaker 1: an e DC. And then you got EDU meaning white
Speaker 1: tail Edu on the Media to YouTube channel. It's with
Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon Tony Peterson. It's a short video series running
Speaker 1: through September. UH to get you in the mindset for
Speaker 1: the fall hunting season and provide all kind of tips
Speaker 1: and tricks for uh getting after white tails.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 1: Those guys are great too. On the way on the
Speaker 1: white tail front, I grew up hunting white tails. We
Speaker 1: would just kind of put a tree in the same
Speaker 1: put a tree stand in the same stuff. Yeah, out
Speaker 1: on the point. So you just watched deer that were
Speaker 1: five hundred. No, you couldn't see that.
Speaker 6: Far, Tony was telling me.
Speaker 1: And they left before I ever got it really figured out.
Speaker 1: But these guys got it figured out.
Speaker 6: Their number one request is people will send them on
Speaker 6: X pins and say where would you kill a due?
Speaker 7: Where should I?
Speaker 6: Where should I set up?
Speaker 2: Do?
Speaker 3: They reply?
Speaker 6: Their reply is listen and figure it out for yourself. Yes,
Speaker 6: the whole teach man to fish.
Speaker 1: Dude after hunting after Tony and I went down and
Speaker 1: last fall and hunt some public land down in Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: and watching that dude like uh, kind of put that
Speaker 1: whole thing together, like just basically scouting on the fly
Speaker 1: and then making determinations.
Speaker 7: He's taken in all kinds of information you might know.
Speaker 1: It's like six cents stuff, dude, it's sixth sense stuff.
Speaker 6: Like you didn't sit there and be like, oh I
Speaker 6: could do this.
Speaker 8: No, it probably becomes six cents if you're constantly doing
Speaker 8: doing something in a certain way and like keeping track
Speaker 8: of certain things. It probably becomes like an instinct.
Speaker 1: After what white tails are doing. When they're doing you know,
Speaker 1: like you can take someone and show them, but you
Speaker 1: know you might not notice, but look that's a deer trail, right,
Speaker 1: and they'll eventually figure that out. But sort of his
Speaker 1: his like I don't know, I think around four o'clock
Speaker 1: he's gonna come down there, stand right there and eat
Speaker 1: an acorn. It's it's incredible, man, he's good on those
Speaker 1: dudes are good on white tails. It's fun to see.
Speaker 1: We also have a new live streaming podcast called me
Speaker 1: Eater Radio. Live starts in a few days, so you
Speaker 1: want to check that out. It's the Field Report all
Speaker 1: from around the country. Live correspondence from around the country
Speaker 1: telling you what they're up to, what's going on, what's
Speaker 1: the news in the area, what's the hot bite in
Speaker 1: the area, what kind of tattoos did they get they
Speaker 1: might later regret whatever. Field Reports from around the country,
Speaker 1: Alaska to Florida, New York to Hawaii and all points
Speaker 1: in between. You'll be hearing from some of the hardest
Speaker 1: hitting outdoorsmen out there as they give you live reports
Speaker 1: on what's going on in their area and in their lives.
Speaker 4: But also co anchored by a combination of you Cal Brody, Randall, Spencer,
Speaker 4: Yanni yep uh so nice peppering of different personalities from
Speaker 4: across our network. And you will be able to watch
Speaker 4: it live on the podcast.
Speaker 1: But then you watch it later too. You want to
Speaker 1: watch it live, watch it live, yea. Turks and Caicos
Speaker 1: repeals the law that has all the Americans locked up.
Speaker 1: They walked the law back a little bit that has
Speaker 1: all the Americans locked up. If you hadn't heard about this,
Speaker 1: We've covered this and interviewed some of the people and
Speaker 1: covered it on our website, covered it on podcasts. Turks
Speaker 1: and Caicos passes really strict uh gun law which which
Speaker 1: had a minimum uh was it twelve I think twelve
Speaker 1: years minimum jail time for gun, Yeah, for for possession
Speaker 1: firearm possession. And the way they wrote it, we roll
Speaker 1: up even if you had a shell and no gun
Speaker 1: to shoot it from. And they caught. Once this law
Speaker 1: was passed and started being strictly enforced, they caught five
Speaker 1: American tourists summer, all of them coming out of the
Speaker 1: country leaving Turks and Caicos with a stray round or
Speaker 1: a stray few rounds of AMMO left over from hunting
Speaker 1: season in their backpack. Jailed all these guys. A congressional
Speaker 1: delegation went down there. There's a guy from Pennsylvania, so
Speaker 1: I know, like fetterman from Pennsylvania went down there. There's
Speaker 1: a guy from Oklahoma, so a congressman from Oklahoma, on
Speaker 1: and on. Congressman from all these different states went down
Speaker 1: there to try to put some heat on Turks and
Speaker 1: Caicos to give the guys back, because clearly in this situation,
Speaker 1: it's like, first they don't have a firearm to match
Speaker 1: the ammo. Second they've already gotten somehow they got into
Speaker 1: the country like.
Speaker 7: Favor by taking Ammo out of the country.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it'd be, you know, it'd be like some
Speaker 1: some honey Ammo. They got into the country, stayed the
Speaker 1: whole time, and now they're leaving and you catch them
Speaker 1: on the way out the door with a bullet or
Speaker 1: two in their bag. And so this US congressional delegation
Speaker 1: goes down there and says, come on, I mean, come
Speaker 1: on right. And I had earlier I had wondered, like,
Speaker 1: what would be the leverage that the US would apply
Speaker 1: to Turks and Caicos. The one thing that that I
Speaker 1: realized in some reading I did this morning. Leverage they
Speaker 1: could apply is a state department issues of warning like
Speaker 1: don't go to you know, warning businesses don't do business
Speaker 1: in Turks and Caicos because they're a little over zealous,
Speaker 1: and warn US citizens, hey be careful going to Turks
Speaker 1: and Caicos, which can really when when you have a
Speaker 1: country whose economy is based on tourism. So apparently that's
Speaker 1: the pressure they put on. And meanwhile they've been slowly
Speaker 1: letting these guys out. They held one guy in jail
Speaker 1: for one hundred days, he got out on time, served
Speaker 1: another guy came home because he's got bad health problems.
Speaker 1: One of the two guys we interviewed his home. Another
Speaker 1: one's gonna find out today or tomorrow. And meanwhile, they
Speaker 1: walked back the wording on the they walked back the
Speaker 1: wording on the legislation. Still still check your bags, dude.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm always yelling at my little boy because
Speaker 1: he's super careless of twenty two shells. Put the things
Speaker 1: back in the box.
Speaker 7: I got detained for a little while in Anchorage.
Speaker 2: I got I got rolled up in Mexico.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Mexico. I'd rather get detained an anchored.
Speaker 8: I was scary because you were in what happened there.
Speaker 8: So again, I was coming back across the border and
Speaker 8: I had shotgun shells underneath the back seat of my
Speaker 8: truck because I had gotten coyote hunting, like like a
Speaker 8: week before we went there.
Speaker 6: Well, it's also just where shotgun shells.
Speaker 8: Live, exactly, And you know they were just you want
Speaker 8: a routine inspection, checking for if I was bringing fruit
Speaker 8: or whatever. And they've found these two shells, and they
Speaker 8: pulled me and my family the US side of the
Speaker 8: Mexico side and Mexico side.
Speaker 3: Okay, I got it.
Speaker 8: Yeah, So I was kind of, you know, crap in
Speaker 8: my pants a little bit because I didn't know. I
Speaker 8: was there with my kids and my wife.
Speaker 2: Luckily I had my whole fit.
Speaker 8: My parents were with us, my uncles were with us.
Speaker 8: We were like down there for a whole thing. So
Speaker 8: eventually they just took the shells, throw them out and
Speaker 8: let us go. But it was a little harry for
Speaker 8: a little bit there.
Speaker 6: I want to I want to know, like what percentage
Speaker 6: of government spending goes into stuff like this when we
Speaker 6: all bitch about government overspending, Like, well, we had to
Speaker 6: send a congressional delegation because some folks on vacation had
Speaker 6: a couple of shells in their pocket. I'd just like
Speaker 6: to know. But I could guarantee the like, thank God
Speaker 6: for the US government.
Speaker 7: They probably worked in a little vacation while they were
Speaker 7: down there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's totally hilarious. I don't want to
Speaker 1: say the name. But there's a subject we've been wanting
Speaker 1: to have h we wanting to do another episode on
Speaker 1: wild horses, wildhorse, the wildhorse wild Borough subject. So I
Speaker 1: was telling Krin, was like, I really want to find
Speaker 1: like a guest who's got deep, deep history, deep personal
Speaker 1: on the ground history with the issue of wild horses,
Speaker 1: the wild Horse and Burrough Protection Act, unintended consequences of
Speaker 1: the wild Horse and Burrough Protection Act, the kind of
Speaker 1: insanity of shipping these horses to Oklahoma and paying farmers
Speaker 1: to raise them until they die of old age because
Speaker 1: there's no other outlet for them. All that, and I
Speaker 1: start eyeballing this guy that seems great on the subject.
Speaker 1: And I said to Krint, once you find this guy
Speaker 1: and see if you'll come on the show. And last
Speaker 1: night Krinn sends me a article and like we'll share
Speaker 1: articles all the time. And I'm reading the article thinking
Speaker 1: that there's like a hunting and fishing angle to it.
Speaker 1: And it's an article about this guy who's embezzling money
Speaker 1: from a university by just weird little petty things, like
Speaker 1: he would like expense report, he would take a company
Speaker 1: car but then fill out an expense report as though
Speaker 1: he took his own car, right. Or he would have
Speaker 1: his daughters getting married somewhere, so he would book a
Speaker 1: big house for the family to be at the wedding,
Speaker 1: but then he would schedule a meeting and then white
Speaker 1: out the details and submit the white out certain details
Speaker 1: on the invoice, and submit the invoice for reimbursement.
Speaker 6: He's got a shitload of markers and staples at his house.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm reading the article thinking that I'm going
Speaker 1: to get to a part where he's using a company
Speaker 1: truck for hunting and fishing, Like, I don't know, I'm waiting.
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the hunting and fishing angle. And I
Speaker 1: text her him like I don't see the relevance of
Speaker 1: what you just sent me, and she goes, that's the
Speaker 1: guy that you've been telling me to.
Speaker 3: Get out of.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh, I guess we're back to the
Speaker 1: drawing board.
Speaker 3: I think we know some people. We know some people.
Speaker 7: We talked about it later.
Speaker 3: We've done some actions on wild.
Speaker 2: Horses, fair horses and all that in Arizona specific.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So if you are a here's the catch.
Speaker 1: You can't you cannot be God bless you. This is
Speaker 1: not like a this is not not, this is not
Speaker 1: meaning any disrespect, not. You can't be an agency person.
Speaker 1: You can be a former agency person, but you can't
Speaker 1: be a current agency person because it's the kind of
Speaker 1: issue where if you if you're an agency person, you're
Speaker 1: going to be restricted on what you can say, and
Speaker 1: you're gonna be reluctant to share your own opinions because
Speaker 1: of retribution. Former agency person or other professional ten yared
Speaker 1: a person who's tenured somewhere and can just talk about
Speaker 1: the issue, and they and you could be free to say,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll tell you the crazy part about this,
Speaker 1: or here's the part that everybody thinks is crazy, but
Speaker 1: it's not so crazy, and just a real someone who
Speaker 1: really sees all sides of it, understands arguments on both ends.
Speaker 1: Cal's looking at me like he wants the job.
Speaker 6: At the same time, I want somebody from the horse
Speaker 6: sausage industry.
Speaker 7: Come down from the glue factory.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no agency people, and you know, we're open to
Speaker 1: a glue factory person, but he's gotta you gotta be
Speaker 1: a well rounded glue factory person. Uh So there's a
Speaker 1: call to action. The the the pronunciation on the Roosevelt
Speaker 1: Roosevelt family deepens. Do you ready for this?
Speaker 3: Guy?
Speaker 1: Wrote in who's this person's name?
Speaker 5: Her?
Speaker 1: Michelle? Michelle? What's dBm and MS mean that?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: That wrote in.
Speaker 6: They're getting paid for this somehow?
Speaker 1: I actually need to call her about this pigeons.
Speaker 7: It's a little.
Speaker 1: Late now, but I want to know.
Speaker 3: That I did.
Speaker 1: Well, that's who we called, but we didn't call her.
Speaker 1: We called her. We kind of jumped the gun and
Speaker 1: already burned some, burned some, you know, we call it
Speaker 1: Goodwill called her a couple of times about non issues,
Speaker 1: and then when we had an issue, I was like,
Speaker 1: are we really going to call her again about these pigeons?
Speaker 4: She might appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I think a little bit I gathered from her tonality
Speaker 1: was a little bit of like, why did you go
Speaker 1: get them right?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 1: This all seems very preventable.
Speaker 6: I do need to talk to this person though, Veterinary
Speaker 6: microbiology Snort's got some gut health issues that we need
Speaker 6: to figure out.
Speaker 3: Call her up.
Speaker 1: Here's what she has to say right Here's what she
Speaker 1: had to say right now, Michelle. She says some interesting
Speaker 1: history surrounding the Roosevelt family in pronuncie of the name
Speaker 1: I have period. I've always jumped back and forth and
Speaker 1: had been intellectually too lazy to figure out what it
Speaker 1: actually was, so I would sometimes do ruse and sometimes
Speaker 1: do rose. And I was corrected that when speaking of Theodore.
Speaker 1: It's Roosevelt, and he spelled, he articulated very clearly in letters,
Speaker 1: and that's how he likes it to be. But hear this.
Speaker 1: My husband got on a presidential biography kick, and around
Speaker 1: the time our son was born, he was working through
Speaker 1: Edmund Morris's three part biography of Theodore Roosevelt. This became
Speaker 1: my son's first bedtime story, as he loved to read
Speaker 1: aloud for him every night, and even threw in an
Speaker 1: attempt at an old timey accent, Phil do your old
Speaker 1: timey accent from people in movies from the early movie days?
Speaker 8: Well, hey, there, Chap, how you doing. You've got a
Speaker 8: nice looking mouth, like to kiss it?
Speaker 1: And then do the what's the big idea? Here? And
Speaker 1: so you want to be a star? Hey, what's the
Speaker 1: big idea?
Speaker 7: You want to be a star?
Speaker 1: Don't you.
Speaker 3: Still? Specially last name? Yeah? Where was that?
Speaker 9: Oh?
Speaker 1: Somewhere In this trilogy was an explanation of the history
Speaker 1: of the family, which was intertwined with the differences in pronunciation.
Speaker 1: There are historically two different groups of Roosevelts, the Hyde
Speaker 1: Park clan and the Oyster Bay Clan, who are each
Speaker 1: based from two different sons of the hell's that name?
Speaker 1: Klaus Martins, marts and Von.
Speaker 6: I think it's Marten.
Speaker 1: That sounds like a name you'd have.
Speaker 7: The important Rosenbelt.
Speaker 1: But I like that whole name because it makes you.
Speaker 1: It makes it's like, you know, so there's the thing
Speaker 1: I've become interested in. It's like there's certain names you'll
Speaker 1: see and you know they're rich.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we hit on that the other day. What is
Speaker 7: that guy's name?
Speaker 3: I can't remember.
Speaker 1: Braxton, Braxton, Saxon Axton. Yeah, yeah, it's like they know,
Speaker 1: like rich. I wonder if it works as if I
Speaker 1: name my kid a rich name. If I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna name him Thurston so.
Speaker 7: He become rich.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, will money just flow his way because you
Speaker 1: named your kid Dave? I mean, who knows, could go anywhay.
Speaker 1: But if I named him Thurston von Renel in the ninth,
Speaker 1: does money just show up?
Speaker 3: Likely he's gonna be getting calls for sure.
Speaker 1: Klaus Martins and von Roosevelt, who arrived in New Amsterdam
Speaker 1: around sixteen forty, meaning that family showed up in Manhattan
Speaker 1: and sixteen forty. That's a good way to make money. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think the money followed the name Theodore Roosevelt was
Speaker 1: part of the Oyster Bay branch who pronounced the name Roosevelt.
Speaker 1: Franklin D. Roosevelt was part of the Hyde Park clan
Speaker 1: who pronounced the name Roosevelt. So technically the pronunciation indicates
Speaker 1: which branch of the family you are referring to. That's great,
Speaker 1: So that confuses things even more so. Now when you're
Speaker 1: talking about the Great Depression and you're going to talk
Speaker 1: about Franklin delan No, you need to go like, Okay,
Speaker 1: what was it again? That's right Roosevelt. And if you're
Speaker 1: talking about the trustbusters in the early conservation movement and Theodore,
Speaker 1: you gotta go, what was it again?
Speaker 7: That's right Roosevelt? Elt though, well, I don't know right.
Speaker 6: I think we should say cows deer are our deer
Speaker 6: that reside in Arizona, New Mexico, whereas cou's deer are
Speaker 6: the ones we hunt in Mexico.
Speaker 2: I would I would beg to argue with that.
Speaker 1: Are you are you a cole's or a cousman?
Speaker 8: I'm a cousman, and everybody that I know sayscus and
Speaker 8: I live in Arizona.
Speaker 1: So when I wanted to know, I checked with Chris Denim,
Speaker 1: who's written said it more than anybody on the planet,
Speaker 1: and he said, till the day I die exactly.
Speaker 8: There's nobody that says cows deer unless.
Speaker 1: There's one. We're just one non pretentious person that says it,
Speaker 1: and it's half a finger.
Speaker 3: But he's a stickler. He's a stickler.
Speaker 1: We had spelled one one of our things online. We
Speaker 1: had spelled what state we spelled. We spelled Nevada wrong,
Speaker 1: and Jim texts me. He says, there are two ways
Speaker 1: to pronounce Nevada, but one way to spell it.
Speaker 9: Uh.
Speaker 1: This guy wrote in a nuclear and r f K Junior.
Speaker 1: So we recently re interviewed RFK Jr. And talked about
Speaker 1: which I remain I'm not. I feel that we need
Speaker 1: to be leaned. I'll just say I feel that, without
Speaker 1: really knowing what I'm talking about, I feel that we
Speaker 1: need to be leaning very heavily that direction, he says.
Speaker 1: The guy rites in, I am the plant manager of
Speaker 1: a nuclear plant and need to remain anonymous due to
Speaker 1: company policy. I listened to the podcast religiously. In this
Speaker 1: week's discussion on nuclear power was upsetting our FK made
Speaker 1: two points on nuclear nuclear that were stated as facts
Speaker 1: and are both completely false. I'm not looking to force
Speaker 1: an opinion on anyone, just correct some bad information. Our
Speaker 1: FK stated nuclear is heavily subsidized. Not true. We do
Speaker 1: not receive the carbon credits, wind and solar benefit from
Speaker 1: I had no idea that that was true. If you
Speaker 1: get a new a little game, well, who's right. But
Speaker 1: I'm gonna trust. I'm gonna give this guy that I'm
Speaker 1: gonna trusted. This guy's craig for this week. He goes on,
Speaker 1: I think we should because nuclear is carbon free as well,
Speaker 1: but that's an opinion. We do get some recovery payment
Speaker 1: from the government for spent fuel storage, but that is
Speaker 1: not a subsidy. The money is repayment for all the
Speaker 1: money we spent on the failed Yucca Mountain government project.
Speaker 1: Without getting into the weeds too much, just for people,
Speaker 1: the Yucca Mountain project was there was a plan. We
Speaker 1: have all kinds of nuclear ways stored in places that
Speaker 1: are not long term storage, and for a while there
Speaker 1: was a plan to augur a deep, deep hole in
Speaker 1: the area that's regarded to be one of the most
Speaker 1: geologically stable areas in the country and store and then
Speaker 1: lead seal the stuff into a mountain, which sounds bad
Speaker 1: until you consider that it's all somewhere already. Anyway, two
Speaker 1: primary arguments against it. One, you got to get it there. Okay,
Speaker 1: so all this stuff woul then need to be transported,
Speaker 1: which some people argue would be a huge security and
Speaker 1: environmental risk to transport it. Other people say, well, you
Speaker 1: got to do something with it because it's not good
Speaker 1: where it is. The other issue is Native Americans in
Speaker 1: in was yucka mountain? Nevada or Arizona? Sorry I don't
Speaker 1: know this Nevada, right, I think, so type it in
Speaker 1: real quick, please.
Speaker 8: There's definitely two in Arizona, Nevada.
Speaker 1: And I think it was the Navajo who were of
Speaker 1: the opinion, don't put that ship here on our land.
Speaker 6: Understandable.
Speaker 1: So there's that two. It's point two. RFK was empathetic
Speaker 1: about the lack of insurance for nuclear plants Western Nation.
Speaker 3: Okay, there you go, sorry about that.
Speaker 1: RFK was emphatic about the lack of insurance for nuclear plants.
Speaker 1: This is again completely false. Now I got to clarify
Speaker 1: to the person writing in, he wasn't He wasn't talking
Speaker 1: about a lack of insurance for nuclear plants. He's talking
Speaker 1: about the astronomically high cost of insurance for nuclear plants,
Speaker 1: meaning people think that anti nuclear people are hippies and
Speaker 1: tie dies. And he said, you also have to blame
Speaker 1: guys and ties on Wall Street. I don't think they
Speaker 1: wear ties on Wall Street anymore. They unbutton Yeah, they
Speaker 1: unbuttoned the top button.
Speaker 9: Uh.
Speaker 1: He was saying. The real the problem there is cost
Speaker 1: of insurance, meaning Wall Street guys don't want to insure.
Speaker 1: So a little bit of a squabble there on that.
Speaker 1: But again he says, this is again completely false. Nuclear
Speaker 1: plants are heavily insured by.
Speaker 3: Multiple com companies.
Speaker 4: One update, though, because the Senate just passed a bill
Speaker 4: to support advanced nuclear deployment. So it passed. The Senate
Speaker 4: passed the bill to accelerate the deployment of nuclear energy capacity,
Speaker 4: including by speeding, permitting, and creating new incentives for advanced
Speaker 4: nuclear reactor technologies. And this passed eighty eight to two.
Speaker 1: Oh you.
Speaker 2: In on this.
Speaker 6: The real reason?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 6: No, no, no, she's uh hedging her bets on on Awama.
Speaker 7: I can also see I can also see.
Speaker 6: Act manipulate the stock market rolling through the Nasdak during
Speaker 6: this whole podcast, just got grafts going on.
Speaker 4: Me on me, I'm just gonna really manipulate it. And
Speaker 4: it's going to Joe Biden for signature to become law.
Speaker 4: I'm not exactly sure when that's gonna be.
Speaker 1: But the guy concludes he even gives his first name.
Speaker 1: I don't even read his damn first name. It's A.
Speaker 3: It's A.
Speaker 1: I'll I'll give a hint. He has the same first
Speaker 1: name as a very popular country musician. I could go
Speaker 1: into a great deal, great detail in each of these points,
Speaker 1: but in the interest of brevity, I won't. I do
Speaker 1: sense a sincere curiosity, especially if Steve anytime nuclear comes
Speaker 1: up on the podcast, it would be great to have
Speaker 1: an expert on to speak in facts and allow listeners
Speaker 1: to decide for themselves. I love, I love what you
Speaker 1: guys are doing. Keep up the good work. If you're
Speaker 1: sitting at home or driving in your truck wondering why
Speaker 1: we're talking about this on a show about wildlife and
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing and whatnot, I'll lay it out for
Speaker 1: you very very briefly. As the country moves toward, As
Speaker 1: the country moves toward renewables, and I think we're going
Speaker 1: to retract from renewables because I do not think like
Speaker 1: there's no there's no way Biden's gonna win in November,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna see it. We're gonna see a retraction
Speaker 1: on renewables. But if we do push ahead on renewables,
Speaker 1: there's this conversation about how much of our public lands
Speaker 1: do we put over to renewables. And when I look
Speaker 1: as a as an energy novice, when I look at
Speaker 1: the the huge movement, I'm struggling forwards. When I look
Speaker 1: at how heavily we're spending on moving toward renewable energy,
Speaker 1: I just can't see why we're not moving heavily aggressively
Speaker 1: into research and deployment of nuclear energy because the footprints
Speaker 1: so small.
Speaker 4: And how hopefully I mean, I guess that's reveals my perspective,
Speaker 4: but hopefully, And it seems like potentially from certain you know, legislation,
Speaker 4: that there is momentum behind that. And I think that
Speaker 4: there are people driving markets, you know, all these AI
Speaker 4: investors who are actually talking to nuclear so that might become.
Speaker 6: Because of the huge power needs of Aially exactly.
Speaker 1: It's either it's either we go back and double down
Speaker 1: on fossil fuels. We plaster our coastlines with wind farms
Speaker 1: and convert hundreds of thousands of acres of BLM to
Speaker 1: solar arrays and wind. I'm not trying to make it
Speaker 1: like like a rock and a hard spot, but it's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a rock and a hard spot.
Speaker 1: And I can't get satisfied around the idea. I know
Speaker 1: that we had these huge crises three Mile Island, Chernoble,
Speaker 1: what's the Japan. Yeah, the tsunami that wiped out the
Speaker 1: Fukushima power plant. Like I understand all of that, but
Speaker 1: my god, do I feel like we need to be
Speaker 1: taking that stuff more seriously?
Speaker 6: Well, how about this bs on batteries? Like the solution
Speaker 6: is coming up with bigger batteries, Like that's I do
Speaker 6: not believe that for a fricking second.
Speaker 1: Did you hear Trump lay out his concerns about big batteries.
Speaker 6: No, but I just changed batteries and at my house
Speaker 6: last night, and I'm like, here's this thing. And my
Speaker 6: place is right next to Pacific Steel and Recycling. Huge
Speaker 6: shout out to that places, because it's like the most
Speaker 6: fun place I go. You can recycle anything. And then yeah,
Speaker 6: and then you get paid for it. It's awesome and
Speaker 6: there's a bunch of real interesting folks down there. Awesome
Speaker 6: documentary to be made. I could waste a lot of
Speaker 6: time at Pacific Steel. Uh you know what, they don't
Speaker 6: recycle any type of battery. Why not because it's trash.
Speaker 6: They're like, you can't recycle that poisons.
Speaker 1: But why are they always paying that?
Speaker 6: Why are they always Well, there's people who can recycle
Speaker 6: the lead out of lead core batteries.
Speaker 1: Oh they don't want lithiums.
Speaker 6: Yep, no alkaline. Uh you know, no double as, triple as.
Speaker 1: Oh that kind of battery. Okay, Yeah, when you said batteries,
Speaker 1: my head immediately went to the fact that you can
Speaker 1: get money for a car battery. But that's right, that's
Speaker 1: a fraction of allt.
Speaker 6: But like these lithium batteries and stuff like that is like,
Speaker 6: it's just it's trash, man.
Speaker 7: You don't want to get them wet either, or take
Speaker 7: them on an airplane.
Speaker 1: Brody and I were laughing there at Eggs. I was
Speaker 1: watching this clip. I kept hearing that Trump was talking
Speaker 1: a lot about shark attacks. I was like, what, So
Speaker 1: I was watching this clip and he's talking about boats
Speaker 1: like vessels now with these huge battery powered vessels, and
Speaker 1: he's laying out a scenario where the vessel is sinking
Speaker 1: and you have a lot of electricity in the water
Speaker 1: and you're faced with a do you stay with the
Speaker 1: boat or risk shark attack by getting away from the boat.
Speaker 1: And he really had shark attacks on his mind. He
Speaker 1: had been a woman had just lost the leg a shark.
Speaker 2: Maybe in Florida, and you see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people in the audience were a little confused.
Speaker 10: But he was back on the other day.
Speaker 1: It's funny that he's Uh, I'd like him to come on.
Speaker 6: Did you catch when you talk about sharks that you
Speaker 6: struggled with the word nuclear always my whole life?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Do you remember the the Bush clips?
Speaker 1: No? Do you have a hard time with.
Speaker 6: It Bush number two? Yeah, there's a great, great series
Speaker 6: of nuclear.
Speaker 3: That that was a big thing. Is this guy that
Speaker 3: wrote in you know where he's from, perhaps from Michigan.
Speaker 6: On the nuclear part? Oh, he can't say that.
Speaker 3: I can't say.
Speaker 1: He won't even say I grew up right next to a.
Speaker 3: Form nuclear power plant in Michigan.
Speaker 9: Was his name? Luke?
Speaker 2: I was gonna say?
Speaker 1: Luke said the country music.
Speaker 7: Has to be kept quiet.
Speaker 1: Well, how do you know what his name is? That Whalen?
Speaker 9: I know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, no Waylon was my second guess, sure, yeah, or
Speaker 3: George could have been George, or Tana could have been Garth, Garth,
Speaker 3: Tanya George, Yeah, Tanya be.
Speaker 1: Dolly dude. That song Delta don oh dude, I love it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was a teenager.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Oh have you ever looked at the YouTube Grand Old Aubrey.
Speaker 3: Good stuff?
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1: She almost had a big role in Jeremiah Johnson. Did
Speaker 1: you know that? No, she wout up having a small
Speaker 1: role in Jeremiah Johnson.
Speaker 3: H Oh, she did have one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, you could do it. I shouldn't throw this
Speaker 1: out there because maybe some day, well you could do
Speaker 1: a whole documentary on Jeremia Johnson. Here's a good one
Speaker 1: for you guys. It's a chettaquot question. Chettiicut meaning Chester's
Speaker 1: not even here. It means it's an etequatet question, and
Speaker 1: we normally defer to Chester, who likes etiquette. He's not
Speaker 1: even here, so I guess it's more of an etiquette question.
Speaker 1: It's a good one. I'm seeking guidance on a recent
Speaker 1: dilemma I have been troubled with, so it's not so
Speaker 1: recent anymore. But from the spring, he says, I live
Speaker 1: in a mid Atlantic state. He's he doesn't want to
Speaker 1: tell a mid Atlantic state. He doesn't want to get done.
Speaker 1: He doesn't want people to narrow down to what state
Speaker 1: he's in. I live in a state with a robust
Speaker 1: turkey uppercase tea population. This season, I hunted the woods
Speaker 1: behind my house. You always know where it's going when
Speaker 1: someone hunts the woods behind their house. I had several
Speaker 1: close encounters at the same time and never filled my tag.
Speaker 1: Three days after the season ended, I woke up to
Speaker 1: the barks and growls of my Labrador retriever uppercase R.
Speaker 1: He was right to uppercase the l and wrong to
Speaker 1: uppercase the R. I looked out my bedroom window to
Speaker 1: see that the same tom had found itself trapped inside
Speaker 1: my garden plot, which is surrounded by an eight foot fence.
Speaker 1: I watched as the bird retreated, repeatedly, tried to take flight,
Speaker 1: hit the fence, and run around the garden, tearing up
Speaker 1: my plants. My immediate thought was to grab my twelve
Speaker 1: gage and protect my crops. Hear them out. Suddenly, every
Speaker 1: segment of Chetticut popped in my head. I felt as
Speaker 1: though I was biased and wanting a turkey in my freezer.
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe, and that my rationale and protecting my crops
Speaker 1: may be impaired by the frustration of the prior turkey season.
Speaker 1: I don't rely on my garden for survival, but I
Speaker 1: do appreciate my homegrown veggies. I called my States Game
Speaker 1: Ward and dispatch several times and was told to leave
Speaker 1: a message and that someone would get back to me.
Speaker 1: The Department of Natural Resources website states homeowners are strictly
Speaker 1: prohibited from trapping and shooting wildlife outside regulated seasons unless
Speaker 1: the animal has been actively causing property damage or is
Speaker 1: an obvious threat to public health and safety. Eventually, I
Speaker 1: was able to get the garden gate open and scare
Speaker 1: the bird out, damaging even more plans.
Speaker 10: I don't understand the Eventually, I would like the tinges
Speaker 10: were rusted.
Speaker 1: I don't know, he doesn't say. After a closer inspection
Speaker 1: of the garden, I wish I shot the bird on
Speaker 1: site because he took out my onion.
Speaker 6: Patch that I worked real hard on.
Speaker 1: It's been three days and the game war and has
Speaker 1: it called my buddies will giving a lot of crap
Speaker 1: for not shooting the bird. My question is what I
Speaker 1: have been right to shoot the bird? It was actively
Speaker 1: causing damage.
Speaker 6: If you this is where if you're a hunter, you
Speaker 6: cannot shoot that bird. If you have a hunting license,
Speaker 6: You're you're not gonna end up on the right side
Speaker 6: of the story.
Speaker 1: And we're I'm too killed.
Speaker 7: I have so many questions though, how to get in
Speaker 7: there in the first.
Speaker 1: P Well, I've been waiting to share this. I was
Speaker 1: in the situation he's in. I didn't have a fence
Speaker 1: around my garden. When I got a fence around my garden,
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't a day and there was a
Speaker 1: turkey in there because the dog chased a turkey up
Speaker 1: on the roof of the house. When the turkey pitched
Speaker 1: off the roof of the house, he landed in that
Speaker 1: garden and proceeded to run all over freaking out until
Speaker 1: we were able to get him out of the fence.
Speaker 7: Yeah, they have trouble with fences.
Speaker 1: I'll point out to this gentleman. It never the thought
Speaker 1: never occurred in my mind to kill that turkey.
Speaker 7: He was just sorry he didn't get.
Speaker 1: I think that if you I think that you that
Speaker 1: that because you were trying to kill that turkey and
Speaker 1: got duped. And then if you did kill that turkey,
Speaker 1: now you would always be suspect. Always, there would always be.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to put suspicion.
Speaker 10: Yeah, in the neighborhood. I understand the wanting to protect
Speaker 10: your garden. I was eyeballing a cottontail this morning that
Speaker 10: was drifting towards my garden.
Speaker 1: And Brody's got a domestic cat giving him a lot
Speaker 1: of good deal. Oh that gross unit. This garden as
Speaker 1: an outhouse, which infuriates Brody. Oh the cat, it might
Speaker 1: as well be defecating in Brodie's mouth.
Speaker 10: Yes, I tried non lethal deterrence like laying sticks over
Speaker 10: the garden, but it's not working.
Speaker 1: So it might as well defecate in Brodie's mouth for
Speaker 1: all the internet to bring.
Speaker 7: The game on that cat.
Speaker 6: Well, your kids get diseased because of that thing, I
Speaker 6: don't know.
Speaker 1: And in the garden they're going to get toxo plasmos yeah,
Speaker 1: not toxic, and the you know what they're going to do,
Speaker 1: They're gonna make risky investments. This is all true. I'm
Speaker 1: not making this up. They're gonna get toxo. They're going
Speaker 1: to make risky investments. They're going to drive too fast,
Speaker 1: they're gonna be too hot headed and too prone to fighting.
Speaker 7: That cat's gotta go.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: It's either that or they lose all their money. Do
Speaker 1: you find them making risky bets with one another already?
Speaker 7: I've noticed some weird behavior lately.
Speaker 1: It's toxo. Or they become a weird cat lady, which
Speaker 1: is also linked to toxo.
Speaker 3: That's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: Well, No, when you become a weird cat lady, horder.
Speaker 3: Toxo.
Speaker 1: When you become a guy that drives too fast and
Speaker 1: tries to evade arrest and makes bad bets and likes
Speaker 1: going to casinos, toxo.
Speaker 7: Gotcha.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to do some research there.
Speaker 1: This guy's describing me to a team.
Speaker 3: That's my problem.
Speaker 1: Moving on, Maggie Hudlow is joining us from Wyoming. Hello,
Speaker 1: what's covered up by a tarp in the background. I've
Speaker 1: been dying to know.
Speaker 9: Oh, that's our straw very patch. We've got a little
Speaker 9: hoop house thing there. We've got another bigger vegetable garden
Speaker 9: up on the other side of the house.
Speaker 1: Are you keeping cold out or pass out?
Speaker 9: Uh? Well, the dogs really like to dig around in there,
Speaker 9: and it's been below freezing the last few nights, so
Speaker 9: little of both.
Speaker 1: Okay, keeping the cat keeping Brody's house cat out of there,
Speaker 1: So give us give us a dispatch. Oh sorry, go ahead,
Speaker 1: we have a slight delay.
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, sorry about that. The uh don't have too
Speaker 9: much trouble with cats with all the dogs running around
Speaker 9: this yard.
Speaker 1: Maggie Hudlow is a colleague of ours here meat Eater,
Speaker 1: a very prolific writer. You can always find her work
Speaker 1: at the meat eater dot com. And Maggie's gonna give
Speaker 1: us the whelming dispatch and lay out some of the
Speaker 1: the aftermath of the incident where individual had struck a
Speaker 1: wolf with a snowmobile and then taped its mouth shut
Speaker 1: and paraded it around town in a very distasteful incident
Speaker 1: that had some far reaching consequences.
Speaker 9: Go ahead, Maggie, Yeah, thanks, Steve. I mean when I
Speaker 9: first heard the news, I had a couple thoughts, and
Speaker 9: it was like, what a thoughtless dumb ass, Like what
Speaker 9: a terrible thing to do. And also the second thought
Speaker 9: was that this is gonna blow up and get just huge,
Speaker 9: and it did immediately, so kind of local repercussions that
Speaker 9: have been not necessarily as publicly news. There have been
Speaker 9: a lot of people you know, connected to Cody through
Speaker 9: family I know, that have been getting death threats. The
Speaker 9: Green River Bar where the incident happened, they've been getting
Speaker 9: you know, threatened, game wardens, people, small businesses in town
Speaker 9: have been getting just like hundreds of one star reviews
Speaker 9: by people they've never met, just angry animal activists, and
Speaker 9: all that has done like these strangers kind of infiltrating
Speaker 9: this really like close knit small town. It's just made
Speaker 9: people want to side with Cody more than anything because
Speaker 9: they know him as a person and he's never you know,
Speaker 9: threatened to kill them or their family or anything. So
Speaker 9: what's happened is this like massive polarization, and you have
Speaker 9: these animal rights activists that want something to happen and
Speaker 9: are doing it in the worst way possible. And then
Speaker 9: you have this established culture of hate against predators in
Speaker 9: Wyoming that is like already existed, but now it's had
Speaker 9: this international spotlight shown on it, and essentially right now
Speaker 9: it's like you're either on this side or you're on
Speaker 9: this side, you're either for animal rights or you're for
Speaker 9: killing wolves. And I think we need to have more
Speaker 9: conversations that meet a little bit more in the middle,
Speaker 9: Like we need predator management in this area is a
Speaker 9: huge part of this community. We also are right in
Speaker 9: the middle of migration corridors for mule deer, for antelope.
Speaker 9: We have huge elk populations. There's elk feed grounds all
Speaker 9: around us. I think preitor management is important, but I
Speaker 9: think it's also really important that we look at creating
Speaker 9: legislation that makes it ethical.
Speaker 3: Right on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you can you elaborate on that last point
Speaker 1: a little bit? That was some of the I think
Speaker 1: some of the frustration that happened on this issue is
Speaker 1: someone did something that was so egregious, and I'll remind people,
Speaker 1: I think this gets a little bit lost. This was
Speaker 1: hitting a wolf of the snowmobil. This is running down
Speaker 1: an animal hitting with a snowmobil. Yes, the individual hunts
Speaker 1: does some hunting, but this is a snowbill strike and
Speaker 1: taking a wounded animal, taping it up and bringing it
Speaker 1: to a bar. And I think I sensed early on
Speaker 1: a lot of frustration from outsiders looking at this issue,
Speaker 1: being how could you do that in the criminality of
Speaker 1: it was illegal possession of wildlife, which would be the
Speaker 1: same thing is if you went and caught a that
Speaker 1: you went and caught a baby rabbit and raised it
Speaker 1: as your own, you would be guilty of the same crime,
Speaker 1: illegal possession of wildlife. So when you talk about legislation,
Speaker 1: what I mean, can you comment on that? Am I
Speaker 1: going in the wrong direction on this and trying to
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying?
Speaker 9: Maggie, No, No, you're good And I think so wolves
Speaker 9: are you know, considered predators, so they just don't have
Speaker 9: any sort of protections beyond that. And that's sort of
Speaker 9: the sticky thing about the situation is that everyone wanted
Speaker 9: to see Cody prosecuted more than just that small fine,
Speaker 9: and there is nothing legally set in the state that
Speaker 9: he technically did that he can be taken to court
Speaker 9: for or fined for. And that's where the you know,
Speaker 9: the state legislation itself needs to change.
Speaker 7: So, Maggie, are you getting at that?
Speaker 10: Like in Wyoming, wolves are not managed as well in
Speaker 10: most of the state, they're not managed as a game animal,
Speaker 10: so it's like open season all your long, no bag
Speaker 10: limits outside of a small area in northwestern Wyoming.
Speaker 1: Small Well not when.
Speaker 9: I think it's ninety of the state.
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, I thought it was more significent. So but
Speaker 1: but just like a little background for people listening. When
Speaker 1: when wolves were delisted, different states took different approaches. In
Speaker 1: Wyoming in some respects, the delisting process was delayed by
Speaker 1: negotiations with Wyoming about how Wyoming what kind of management
Speaker 1: plan Wyoming wanted to do, and Wyoming like really stuck
Speaker 1: to its guns and push for a management plan in
Speaker 1: which they would have a area where wolves would be
Speaker 1: managed as a game animal, and they would have an
Speaker 1: area where wolves would be managed as basically the same
Speaker 1: way that virtually all states managed.
Speaker 3: Coyots as vermin as a.
Speaker 1: Non game whatever, the same way for coyotes. You know,
Speaker 1: most states have I think this is true. Most states
Speaker 1: have no close seasons on coyotes, right, And if there's
Speaker 1: a coyote molesting your livestock whatever, you don't even need
Speaker 1: to tell anybody about it if you were to kill
Speaker 1: a coyote. So Wyoming was emphatic about arriving at in
Speaker 1: that position, and it differs from the management approach taken
Speaker 1: in Idaho and the management approach taken in Montana where
Speaker 1: they established quota systems around the state and regulatory measures
Speaker 1: around those states. So it's just a difference in the approach.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and the concept of running down wolves on a
Speaker 9: snow machine, that's something that's been happening here for a
Speaker 9: long time. I'm called oh in coyotes for sure. Like
Speaker 9: I was called a tree hug and hippie growing up.
Speaker 9: When I tell my classmates I thought that was wrong
Speaker 9: or a bad thing to do. I was like, if
Speaker 9: you want to shoot them, why don't you just shoot them? Like,
Speaker 9: why do you got to run them until they die?
Speaker 9: I don't think that's right. And because I would say
Speaker 9: that I was a tree hugget and hippie. But you know,
Speaker 9: I think you can be a sportsman and believe in
Speaker 9: like ethical predator management. And that's what I would like
Speaker 9: to see if there's any light in this situation that
Speaker 9: it just brings more of that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because I think amongst the pro predator management crowd,
Speaker 6: even the pro predator eradication crowd, you would see a
Speaker 6: division in getting the job done and playing with the animal, right, right.
Speaker 2: Even if you're going to run it over, just run
Speaker 2: it over.
Speaker 6: Kill it if you're pro as in a professional, you're
Speaker 6: doing things quickly and efficiently doing the job.
Speaker 8: I don't think any hunter who like says that they're
Speaker 8: a hunter wants to see a prolonged death on it, right.
Speaker 8: We like pride ourselves on the fact that one shot,
Speaker 8: one kill or yeah, you know, in general, I'll.
Speaker 6: Just totally honest, like my hunting mentor uh. He was
Speaker 6: in a time where coyote pelts were worth a ton
Speaker 6: of money, and he used to tell me stories over
Speaker 6: and over again about the the success of his coyote
Speaker 6: season was based on how many snowsuits he had to
Speaker 6: replace because instead of shooting a coyote, he'd get up
Speaker 6: alongside of him on a snowmobile and whack him on
Speaker 6: the head with the club so he didn't have to
Speaker 6: stitch up a hole.
Speaker 8: But that's still just that. But it's a dead coyote,
Speaker 8: that's dispatching it right away.
Speaker 3: I mean, but that that.
Speaker 6: Dog watch into the leg on his snow snowsuit and
Speaker 6: they'd whack it on the head.
Speaker 5: Huh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of those things that you hear and
Speaker 1: you don't immediately think about what uh And I almost
Speaker 1: hesitate to say this but what a level of.
Speaker 11: Uh.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of coordination athleticism.
Speaker 6: These are old snowmobiles.
Speaker 1: Too, Maggie, I want to real quick calendar you can
Speaker 1: take over. I want to tell you that one of
Speaker 1: the interesting things about being alive today is it possible
Speaker 1: to be a tree hugging hippie and a savage redneck
Speaker 1: all at the same time. It depends on who I
Speaker 1: feel that, it depends on who's doing the looking. I
Speaker 1: think that Einstein got into that with theory of relativity
Speaker 1: and you say like, well, how fast is it going? Well,
Speaker 1: it depends on where you're looking at it from. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you're a you're a like a you're a bloodthirsty redneck
Speaker 1: in a tree hugging hippie.
Speaker 3: Welcome.
Speaker 9: Yeah. Never been more clearly designed.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well, the conversation with a bunch of ranchers over the
Speaker 6: years who makes some comment about environmentalists and I'm looking
Speaker 6: at their place and I'm like, well, aren't you a
Speaker 6: lot of environment I'm like, you seem to be doing
Speaker 6: a lot of things good for the environment.
Speaker 9: Here.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite UH stories from this podcast is
Speaker 1: we had a guy on years ago that that worked
Speaker 1: on the the nutrient eradication program in Chesapeake Bay, and
Speaker 1: in order to do the nutrio eradication program, they had
Speaker 1: to get all private landowners to participate, and they had
Speaker 1: one big landowner. It was just a holdout, so they
Speaker 1: couldn't finish killing all the nutrio. And he had a
Speaker 1: real just kind of anti getting along, yeah, anti. He
Speaker 1: had an anti government perspective and kind of an anti
Speaker 1: environmentalist perspective. And eventually they become friends with them, and
Speaker 1: he goes out to this guy's place and he realizes
Speaker 1: the guy just loves loves wildlife, and then walking around
Speaker 1: his place, he's like, look at that, look at that,
Speaker 1: look at that tree, look at this, and he looks
Speaker 1: at the federal guy. He goes, see what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: It's a gee damn menagerie. And he realized, like, we're
Speaker 1: like closer than I thought, you know what I mean? Anyhow,
Speaker 1: anything else, Maggie, you want to add.
Speaker 9: I mean at the moment, no, I'll stick around and
Speaker 9: chime in when I see fit. But it's I just, uh,
Speaker 9: I want both sides of situations like this to just
Speaker 9: think about the the best way to make change. And uh,
Speaker 9: you know, I just I feel like my mom talking
Speaker 9: to myself when I'm in like high school, Like, think
Speaker 9: about your actions, Maggie Rose, think about how your actions
Speaker 9: impact other people, you know. And I just wish more
Speaker 9: people people were told that maybe they needed to be reminded,
Speaker 9: like don't mess with small businesses that have nothing to
Speaker 9: do with this situation. Don't give people death threats, Like
Speaker 9: what do you think that's going to accomplish? So yeah,
Speaker 9: think about your actions.
Speaker 8: You're not dealing with the rational people for the most
Speaker 8: part in that in that scenario.
Speaker 1: So guys, give me the howl perspective on this, because
Speaker 1: it's a it's you know, it's it's it's a thorny
Speaker 1: one for everyone.
Speaker 3: We got involved are about it. We were at Mile
Speaker 3: High Expo in Denver. I was at dinner. I almost
Speaker 3: flipped my table over and I'll explain why. I was
Speaker 3: just pissed off that this happened, like right now, really,
Speaker 3: this happened in twenty twenty four in the midst of
Speaker 3: mountain lion bands, outlying bands and all this stuff that's
Speaker 3: going on. This is going to blow up, This is
Speaker 3: going to look bad, this is gonna this is really
Speaker 3: going to boost the the the anti Hunters in their
Speaker 3: in their campaign because it's.
Speaker 2: He's going to be the poster child.
Speaker 8: Code became the poster child for their Yeah what they're
Speaker 8: trying to push.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we created I guess you can call it
Speaker 3: an action. It was really a sign on letter to
Speaker 3: get as many orgs, companies UH to contemn the action. Right.
Speaker 3: We got about seventy, which was great. I think we
Speaker 3: were the only ones that really even talk about it,
Speaker 3: like as far as a national org, which I was
Speaker 3: disappointed in. You know, we should we should come out
Speaker 3: in opposition to this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's read.
Speaker 3: Oh man, it's red hot, and and we took some heat.
Speaker 3: I run the social media, so I was kind of
Speaker 3: seeing it, you know, from from people that I knew,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, hey, come on, we're Anni hunters now,
Speaker 3: I mean, because we're condemning this action, Like that's that's
Speaker 3: the level it went to. Well, you know, where is
Speaker 3: this gonna go? You're kind of what do you what
Speaker 3: are you saying we should change legislation or or whatnot? No,
Speaker 3: you shouldn't be able to torture an animal. This This
Speaker 3: guy could have ran it, over ran the wolf, over
Speaker 3: tied it to a tree for five days, came back
Speaker 3: five days later and then killed it. It would have
Speaker 3: been fine, no penalty because he didn't transport the animal.
Speaker 1: Oh, that would have been legally permissible.
Speaker 3: In that area. So in the in the vermin area
Speaker 3: that that Maggie was.
Speaker 2: Talking, is it predator managment zone?
Speaker 3: Is it called yeah, the predator man The other zone,
Speaker 3: which is which is funny, is called the trophy zone.
Speaker 3: So let's keep where there are rules. That's called the
Speaker 3: trophy zone. It's Wyoming's just a you know, it's a
Speaker 3: different place. So so we got involved. And then one
Speaker 3: of the things we do is, you know, we're not
Speaker 3: we're not from Wyoming. We're not an organization that's based
Speaker 3: in Wyoming. I reached out to organizations in Wyoming, say hey,
Speaker 3: who's who's taken care of this? Does anybody? Does anybody care?
Speaker 3: Is anybody willing to you know, get involved? And uh,
Speaker 3: and it was Jess Johnson with Wyoming Wildlife Federation And
Speaker 3: she's kind of taken the lead on this. We got
Speaker 3: her back as far as what she's gonna need, podcasts,
Speaker 3: support from in state or odd of state, support from
Speaker 3: industry partners that we have who can, who can kind
Speaker 3: of lend the support that she's gonna need, and and
Speaker 3: she's working on what's gonna work is is there anything
Speaker 3: in legislation? She realizes that's really sticky because this is
Speaker 3: a this is a situation here where it's not normal,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? What happened? So how do
Speaker 3: you really legislate kind of morality? Really?
Speaker 1: And how do you draw legislation around uh, totally individual,
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime outlandish set of actions on one
Speaker 1: person's behalf right, you know?
Speaker 3: So I don't know if it was. There's some things
Speaker 3: there's I think it's happened before, maybe not with this guy,
Speaker 3: but it happens. It has happened before, things like this.
Speaker 8: Maybe not as egregious as this particular thing, but things
Speaker 8: happened that shouldn't happen if you're again an ethical hunter.
Speaker 3: But what but what did it? But what did it do?
Speaker 3: We can we can talk about that. So the action
Speaker 3: was terrible and what did it do? So he became
Speaker 3: the guy who did this? I kind of I realized
Speaker 3: he has a family and all that. I don't like
Speaker 3: really saying his name. I'm just kind of talking about
Speaker 3: the incident. But cats aren't trophies. Who is the the
Speaker 3: anti hunting organization in Colorado that's leading the charge to
Speaker 3: ban trophy hunting mountain lions, Bobcats. His face is plastered
Speaker 3: around their website. His face is plastered around their social media.
Speaker 3: The guy was also he's hunted lions, so they have
Speaker 3: pictures of him with lions, and they're like, this is
Speaker 3: why we need to ban this because we.
Speaker 2: Need to protect them.
Speaker 8: Yeah, we need to protect them from from these evil hunters.
Speaker 8: And this is Yeah, everybody becomes this guy automatically by
Speaker 8: association because we're all hunters, because we're we all engage
Speaker 8: in hunting. Now we are this bloodthirsty hate animals. We don't,
Speaker 8: you know, we willy nilly go out there and shoot crap.
Speaker 8: And you know, that's that's the picture they want to paint.
Speaker 8: You know, it's part of what they do. They deal
Speaker 8: in the eye of public perception all the time.
Speaker 3: It was a nightmare. It's a nightmare for us. It's
Speaker 3: a nightmare for the people who are in the trenches fighting, because, man,
Speaker 3: you get a picture of something, you know how it works.
Speaker 3: I mean, you can't talk your way out of that.
Speaker 3: You know, maybe if you have five hours and you
Speaker 3: really spend it with the person and explain, you know,
Speaker 3: these things we're talking about, But we don't get that chance,
Speaker 3: right social media on all the all the anna hunting,
Speaker 3: you know, websites or whatever. He's the poster boy, and
Speaker 3: you can see publicly how much money they're raising. It's
Speaker 3: in the billions. We talked a little bit earlier about
Speaker 3: the biker rally and that thing that happened. I think
Speaker 3: that was one hundred and thirty two thousand dollars or something.
Speaker 3: It's just it's it's unfortunate that that happened. It's unfortunate
Speaker 3: that there are some people who aren't aware of themselves
Speaker 3: their actions. Obviously somebody in Daniel, Wyoming. The video got
Speaker 3: out somehow. I don't know how it got out. I
Speaker 3: don't know who got a hold of it. But those
Speaker 3: things they don't do us any good. And and you know,
Speaker 3: both both morally, it was wrong. It was wrong if
Speaker 3: nobody even knew about it was wrong if you know,
Speaker 3: if it wasn't on video, but it was on video,
Speaker 3: and now it's a now it's a completely different, you know,
Speaker 3: completely different story. But that kind of stuff is a
Speaker 3: big struggle. It's a big, big struggle it doesn't help
Speaker 3: us at all. So so anyway, we don't know what
Speaker 3: the strategy is going to be, We don't know what
Speaker 3: the if there is going to be legislation or whatnot.
Speaker 3: Jess is working on that. We trust her to, uh
Speaker 3: to get that ironed out. And Maggie, are you do
Speaker 3: you talk to Jess at all about Yeah? You do?
Speaker 9: Okay, Oh, sorry, I was not into my mom in
Speaker 9: the background, but yeah, I'm actually going to Jess's house
Speaker 9: this weekend, so I was looking forward to talking to
Speaker 9: her about this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're having a meeting with her next week.
Speaker 3: Maybe we'll invite you to that on kind of strategy
Speaker 3: on this whole thing. So well, no, that sounds like
Speaker 3: you're right, yeah, yeah, cool.
Speaker 10: Do you think like addressing it more and bringing it
Speaker 10: back up has the potential to backfire and just like
Speaker 10: keeping it like other than condemning it, right, which, what
Speaker 10: else can you do if you're like, oh, if you
Speaker 10: keep raising it up to the top of the discussion,
Speaker 10: is that just helping the other side?
Speaker 3: It's a good question. I think it depends on how
Speaker 3: we how we tackle it, what we say, what the
Speaker 3: results are going to be, and and honestly, if we
Speaker 3: market it or not. I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 3: All right. I'll give you example. We we condemned this,
Speaker 3: We said a lot about it. I made a few
Speaker 3: videos on it. People reached out to Howl and said,
Speaker 3: this is the first time I've ever heard hunters talk
Speaker 3: like this, first time I've heard hunters say this was
Speaker 3: a action. Yeah, these are anti hunters. I think that's
Speaker 3: kind of how she was describing herself. There's a there's
Speaker 3: a few people she was impressed. She said, I feel
Speaker 3: like I could sit at the same table as you
Speaker 3: and at least have a conversation. The more people we
Speaker 3: reach like that, the better. Certainly, kind of like what
Speaker 3: Steve was saying earlier, you finally have a lot, You
Speaker 3: have a lot more in common with people when you
Speaker 3: actually sit down and have conversations and learn about their life.
Speaker 10: And that's it's interesting because like it's like something that's
Speaker 10: very obviously immoral and egregious, but when someone poaches an elk,
Speaker 10: you don't get the same you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: But it's illegal and they get fined.
Speaker 10: It's like we don't get the same credit for condemning
Speaker 10: that action.
Speaker 7: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: It's it's just that's because we're all poachers. You didn't
Speaker 2: know that, right.
Speaker 6: Well, the the reality is like hunters do have a
Speaker 6: very long legacy of regulating hunters, right, this would be
Speaker 6: more of the same.
Speaker 8: But it's not talked about enough. That's the problem.
Speaker 6: And or is it talked about all the time and
Speaker 6: it's just white noise.
Speaker 2: It's talked about all the time between hunters. It's not great.
Speaker 6: I mean, we're not going to we are constantly constantly
Speaker 6: being like, here's somebody who've screwed up. Here's somebody who
Speaker 6: purposely and intentionally did something very wrong. This is how
Speaker 6: you got it, you know.
Speaker 3: And I think you have a positive effect. Mediator has
Speaker 3: a positive effect on the non hunting public. Now, if
Speaker 3: you hadn't said those things over the years, I don't
Speaker 3: know where we would be. Where would we be.
Speaker 1: We'll look at the first, not the first. One of
Speaker 1: the biggest hunting celebrity influencers was Theodore Roosevelt, who that's it, right,
Speaker 1: Here's a big hunting celebrity influencer named Theodore Roosevelt who
Speaker 1: wrote about hunting, wrote whole books about hunting, celebrated hunting,
Speaker 1: loved hunting, promoted hunting of people interested in hunting. But
Speaker 1: what did he do? He would say, how is it
Speaker 1: that it's legal to go and kill thousands of shore
Speaker 1: birds to the point where you're eliminating them off of
Speaker 1: entire nesting grounds? Right? Did people go, you're just playing
Speaker 1: into the hands of the anti hunters, probably a couple
Speaker 1: or was he saying, no, you're you're going to drive
Speaker 1: you know, you're driving these things to extinction. All hunting
Speaker 1: is not the same. There's a way to go about it.
Speaker 1: There's like a responsible way to go about it that
Speaker 1: has sustainability in mind and in respect for the restours.
Speaker 1: And there's the way to go about it where you're
Speaker 1: just going to kind of ruin.
Speaker 3: The whole thing. Yeah, conservations from eradication, you know, couldn't serve.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, so it's not I mean. Leopold, another
Speaker 1: great hunting influencer, right celebrated hunting, wrote about hunting, got
Speaker 1: people into it. Also had a lot to say about
Speaker 1: some things we do that aren't that great, including things
Speaker 1: that some hunters do that aren't that great.
Speaker 8: Sure, sure, ye, Well to that whole point, like my
Speaker 8: whole thing is, or our whole thing is, really is
Speaker 8: do you want policy to be put in place by
Speaker 8: the squeaky wheels of anti hunting, or would you rather
Speaker 8: the decision makers hear from the hunters and have policy
Speaker 8: be put in place guided by us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the things that's come out of
Speaker 1: That's one of the things that over the years has
Speaker 1: come out of trapping regulation is you've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of self policing over the years. Well, I shouldn't just
Speaker 1: point that one out. I will quickly on move on
Speaker 1: another one. The amount of self policing you've seen from
Speaker 1: trappers over the years about best best practices to avoid
Speaker 1: conflict with dogs, Right, you've seen a lot of self pleasing.
Speaker 1: Mean they're saying we could wait, not do anything and
Speaker 1: have a total trap band yep, or we could find
Speaker 1: a way that like, how do we look at how
Speaker 1: do we look at potential areas of conflict and write
Speaker 1: these rules up in the way that lets us continue
Speaker 1: to do what we do and eliminate conflict because it's
Speaker 1: one of the other. We either do things where there's
Speaker 1: zero regulations, no setbacks, no set restrictions, and then we
Speaker 1: wait until you can't do anything, or we find a
Speaker 1: way to ease the tension by taking some small steps
Speaker 1: that we can articulate from an educated perspective about how
Speaker 1: we could go about our business and not cause trouble.
Speaker 1: You see it in the fishing industry right, self plicing
Speaker 1: in the fishing industry. And a famous case would be,
Speaker 1: uh with mountain lions. You talk to anyone involved in
Speaker 1: the history of mountain lion, it's like the first people
Speaker 1: to come forward on mountainland regulations or mountainland hunters yep.
Speaker 2: And that's how it should be.
Speaker 1: I mean they were smart.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, because you want to keep something around to
Speaker 8: continue to do it. Would you rather go hunting once
Speaker 8: every three.
Speaker 2: Years or never again?
Speaker 8: You know, so you think about it, like you know,
Speaker 8: from that perspective, everybody always cares about what's seemingly important
Speaker 8: to them. Sure, so you know think about it that
Speaker 8: that's that's the reality of it. If hundreds of anti
Speaker 8: hunters get what they want, they're going to wave their
Speaker 8: magic wand and get rid of hunting completely. You know,
Speaker 8: they're not just going for one thing, They're going for
Speaker 8: it all.
Speaker 2: Eventually.
Speaker 1: If you picture the private conversations I have, the private
Speaker 1: conversations are, uh, we're going.
Speaker 3: To do away with it all.
Speaker 2: When this happened, I was like, I saw a guy
Speaker 2: like this.
Speaker 10: Yeah, But the funny thing is maybe they just played
Speaker 10: right into our The funny thing about the anti hunting
Speaker 10: angle is they're not using this to get rid of
Speaker 10: wolf hunting in Wyoming because they know that will never happen.
Speaker 10: They're using it in places like Colorado.
Speaker 3: They have no foothold in Wyoming.
Speaker 7: Like yeah, and.
Speaker 10: That's why, I mean, it's this thing that has happened
Speaker 10: is probably not.
Speaker 7: Going to change how wolves are managed, and.
Speaker 3: Not in Wyoming, you know, no, definitely not in Wyoming.
Speaker 2: Good effect everywhere else.
Speaker 3: And you know, you're talking about the private conversation last year,
Speaker 3: two years ago, it came back. Now it's a different initiative.
Speaker 3: It's not really private anymore. So it was IP three
Speaker 3: I think in three IP three in Oregon or that one.
Speaker 3: They kind of did away with that. Now it's going
Speaker 3: to be IP twenty eight. It's a is that the
Speaker 3: no it's in everything band, it's it's.
Speaker 8: Fishing, Yeah, like nails.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how bad it is.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a publicity play though, I mean.
Speaker 8: But there's people signing on. Yeah, so there's obviously a
Speaker 8: group of people that believe that it's.
Speaker 3: The pinnacle of what they want. If they could get
Speaker 3: what they want, that's it.
Speaker 1: Oh, they're like, let's just cut to the instead of
Speaker 1: nitpick and just let's just gump this over with all
Speaker 1: one of that.
Speaker 6: That is a great public service announcement, though, Like you know,
Speaker 6: we're heading into elections and a legislative session here in Montana,
Speaker 6: so you're starting to see a lot more people hounding
Speaker 6: you on the street for signatures. Yeah, and their job
Speaker 6: is to get the signature. The last lady who stopped
Speaker 6: me three times, I had to say, can I see
Speaker 6: the language of the bill? It's this, I'm like, that's
Speaker 6: how the bill's written. No, And then finally I had
Speaker 6: to say, I am an informed voter, show me the
Speaker 6: language of the bill so I can read it. And
Speaker 6: she said, oh, okay, most people don't want that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're like, because you're like one in a million.
Speaker 6: Who right, So, like what they're boiling down?
Speaker 3: What was the bill?
Speaker 1: It was on abortion rights? Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 3: So it's pro life.
Speaker 1: Okay, what's that?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 6: It's like okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can imagine
Speaker 6: how like the petition's going around Colorado or phrased right,
Speaker 6: oh sure, right.
Speaker 3: Well we we don't have to imagine we know exactly.
Speaker 3: Uh no one eats mountain lion meat. We're going out
Speaker 3: there for the head mountains are going to go extinct.
Speaker 3: That's that's the latest one. What else, hunters, you know,
Speaker 3: we're all we're all the guy from Daniel, Wyoming. That's
Speaker 3: who we are. That's why we're out there doing it,
Speaker 3: and so we can take a picture and put it
Speaker 3: on social media. That's it. The not eating mountain lion
Speaker 3: thing has been really eye opening to me. I've never
Speaker 3: a I live in California, so the whole mountain line thing.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you'll never eat one there.
Speaker 1: And even.
Speaker 3: I can't even bring it back if I go out
Speaker 3: of state or you know wherever.
Speaker 7: But really, yeah, you hide back commissioner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I didn't know. I thought that was just
Speaker 1: that they thought it was hypocritical on his part. I
Speaker 1: didn't know that there was a band on bringing them back.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you can have a museum. If I started museum,
Speaker 3: then I can bring whatever I want back. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I cannot bring a hide back, even a fully taxidermied
Speaker 3: yea piece you cannot with fully taxidermy from another state
Speaker 3: that allows it.
Speaker 2: You cannot, Oh, crazy.
Speaker 1: Ship man, I don't know how. I didn't know that,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know that.
Speaker 3: So I wanted to know because I've heard from so
Speaker 3: many people and I knew this, but I wanted to know,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of publicly on social media, Hey, who
Speaker 3: eats mountainlin Send me your pictures, send me the send
Speaker 3: me the recipe, send me the cuisine. Whatever. Flooded with pictures,
Speaker 3: flooded with the best you know, mountain lion, egg roll
Speaker 3: mount you know, mountain lion whatever. And you know, so
Speaker 3: we created a bunch of videos. I think CRWM just
Speaker 3: put up one, actually we did on the entire video
Speaker 3: where it's showing food and kind of talking about what's
Speaker 3: going on in Colorado. And then, by the way, everything
Speaker 3: you just saw that was all my on line. You know.
Speaker 3: So so anyway that cats aren't trophies. They are one
Speaker 3: hundred percent just relying on lies. That's what they're telling
Speaker 3: people when they're gathering signatures, you know, where they're getting
Speaker 3: paid what was it seven to ten bucks a signature? Yeah, crazy,
Speaker 3: it's it's a the process of ballot box biology. That's
Speaker 3: really the issue, right, I think it's better understood. Robbie
Speaker 3: itt Blood or just did a great video on this today.
Speaker 3: But it's better understood if you take a different industry.
Speaker 3: Take I don't know, surgeons or whatnot. You know, in
Speaker 3: the in the medical field, should we go to the
Speaker 3: public and say this is how doctors should perform surgery.
Speaker 3: Should be override that, you know, by public opinion. And
Speaker 3: and when we're out there getting those signatures, we can
Speaker 3: say whatever we want. There's no fact checks, doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: You can when you're you know, collecting signatures, you can,
Speaker 3: like I said, you can say, you know, mountain lions
Speaker 3: aren't eaten, they're going to be extinct. Whatever. You can
Speaker 3: say whatever you want to get the signatures.
Speaker 2: All hunters are like this guy and Cody.
Speaker 3: Excuse me, this guy Cody, Yeah, yeah, and Daniel and
Speaker 3: Daniel and and now doctors have to follow these procedures
Speaker 3: for brain surgery. We have wildlife professionals who go to school,
Speaker 3: they have their doctors, they have their PhDs, they have
Speaker 3: you know whatever, who are managing wildlife and that's their job,
Speaker 3: that's their profession. I don't think people really understand that.
Speaker 3: So when you supersede that with going to the public,
Speaker 3: making up lies and changing what they're able to do
Speaker 3: or not able to do. That's the real I mean
Speaker 3: to me, that's the real danger there. Not that biologists
Speaker 3: are perfect, not that our state agencies make the most
Speaker 3: perfect decisions, but I think they are the experts that
Speaker 3: we have to rely on and that we can you know,
Speaker 3: kind of hold the we can hold them accountable right
Speaker 3: for the actions that they that they decide on or
Speaker 3: that they you know, advise to the commissions to make decides,
Speaker 3: to make decisions on the real problem here is ballot
Speaker 3: box biology. That's what That's what we got to inform
Speaker 3: the public on it. You know, like what danger? What
Speaker 3: danger you bringing to the table? When? When when these
Speaker 3: things are allowed to come to a vote?
Speaker 8: Right, That's always been the anti hunting establishment's goal is
Speaker 8: to win in the area of public perception in public arena.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not getting what they want. They can't don't
Speaker 1: they don't get what they want from fishing game agencies,
Speaker 1: they don't get what they want from get commissions, and
Speaker 1: so they the idea is you take it to the
Speaker 1: voters and turn something that you know, you'll take a
Speaker 1: policy issue that isn't going the way you want through
Speaker 1: establish channels and try to drive it on public opinion,
Speaker 1: which I mean to be fair, happens in other areas.
Speaker 1: It happens in other areas as well. But people have
Speaker 1: pointed out the chaos that would ensue if every piece
Speaker 1: of policy was driven by a a metric of public
Speaker 1: opinion about it in that.
Speaker 8: Moment, So, like you know what Charles was saying, we
Speaker 8: have professionals and they follow science, and they have data
Speaker 8: that makes informed decisions, where the anti hunters want us
Speaker 8: to deal with strictly like on emotion, and they deal
Speaker 8: with social sciences, and it's the only science that they
Speaker 8: can manipulate. Like when we first got started, we were
Speaker 8: dealing with a bill in California that was trying to
Speaker 8: get rid of bear hunting.
Speaker 2: They had did a poll.
Speaker 8: And it said, oh, you know, I don't remember what
Speaker 8: the numbers were, arbitrary number like eighty five percent of
Speaker 8: the public doesn't want us to bear hunt anymore. And
Speaker 8: the questions they were asking, there's not a single hunter
Speaker 8: that I know that would not agree with the question
Speaker 8: that they were asked. They were asking like, are you
Speaker 8: opposed to lopping off a bear's head?
Speaker 2: And leaving it out in the woods.
Speaker 8: No, okay, I'm not. I mean, I mean, yes, I
Speaker 8: am a post to that. No, I would not like
Speaker 8: to see that. You know, are do you? Are you
Speaker 8: okay with you know, shooting cubs and shooting sALS with cubs. No,
Speaker 8: you know, So, like, of course they're going to come
Speaker 8: up with eighty five percent, because even hunters are going
Speaker 8: to say agree with you know, or go along with
Speaker 8: what they just they.
Speaker 3: Just paint a picture that just isn't reality.
Speaker 6: But we're living in a society and Steve's pointed this
Speaker 6: out many many times, where the the structure of regulated
Speaker 6: hunting is a surprise to a huge portion of the
Speaker 6: voting population. Right, they're like, oh, oh interesting, there's population
Speaker 6: studies and this is data driven, and then there's a
Speaker 6: portion of that and then this is account Well what
Speaker 6: about roadkill? Is that account Oh it is?
Speaker 2: Okay? Well yeah, right, it's.
Speaker 6: Like like it or not. There's the burden of education
Speaker 6: is always going to be on us, right, It's like
Speaker 6: we're I don't mind taking the high road, but we're
Speaker 6: constantly forced into the high road side of things, and
Speaker 6: that takes a lot more time per person.
Speaker 8: Right, yep, Yeah, Yeah, when we were in Utah, we
Speaker 8: were This was really evident to us because we were
Speaker 8: riding in ubers and stuff like to go to dinner
Speaker 8: or whatever. And every time we were inn uber, we
Speaker 8: would engage with the driver and everyone that we talked
Speaker 8: to didn't know that there was seasons, didn't know.
Speaker 2: That we had to go buy tags.
Speaker 8: Basically, their idea was that you can go to Walmart,
Speaker 8: buy a gun, got in a field, and shoot whatever
Speaker 8: the heck you want, and there's no there was no
Speaker 8: perception of like well or they would perceive a Even
Speaker 8: the ones that knew about tags, that a tag meant
Speaker 8: a dead animal, they didn't know it was, you know,
Speaker 8: a nine percent chance of you actually killing something, you know,
Speaker 8: with that or harvesting an elkin or with that tag
Speaker 8: or whatever. And there was just all these things that
Speaker 8: we hunters know about and we take for granted seasons,
Speaker 8: draws and all these other little things that the general
Speaker 8: public doesn't know. The non public doesn't, you know, non
Speaker 8: hunting public doesn't know. So if they don't know that,
Speaker 8: and the only thing that they're being exposed to on
Speaker 8: a constant basis is what the anti hunters are feeding.
Speaker 8: Of course, they're gonna have this preconceived notion of who
Speaker 8: the hunter is. They're gonna think you're Elmer Fudd. You know,
Speaker 8: they're gonna think you're a redneck.
Speaker 1: You Elmer Fudd never got anything true.
Speaker 3: This is true.
Speaker 1: I've found often all throughout my life talking to urban people,
Speaker 1: to have them be pleasantly surprised, to learn about the
Speaker 1: regulatory structure, pleasantly surprised. And then you want to go like, oh,
Speaker 1: those cities slicking idiots, But put yourself in their shoes.
Speaker 1: Let's say you're talking to someone you know. You go,
Speaker 1: you're someone from where I grew up and you know,
Speaker 1: rural West Michigan. Meet someone from Manhattan. You must live
Speaker 1: in a war zone. I bet you can't even go
Speaker 1: outside without getting raped and mugged, you.
Speaker 5: Know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like people just aren't aware of other people's worlds.
Speaker 1: So it's not to go and look at someone who
Speaker 1: doesn't hunt, doesn't grow up around hunting, isn't exposed to hunting,
Speaker 1: that they have a totally different idea about it. Well yeah, right,
Speaker 1: and you know what too, The people I hang out
Speaker 1: with a lot of times are idiots about urban life. Right,
Speaker 1: of course, because okay, tell me a thing or two
Speaker 1: about the subway system. You just get robbed, Like, dude,
Speaker 1: there's people have been riding somebodys fifty years and never
Speaker 1: seen a robbery, you know what I mean. But you
Speaker 1: don't know, you jump to conclusions and you have wild ideas.
Speaker 1: It's like a human it's a it's a human problem
Speaker 1: rather than anything else. And then there are people that
Speaker 1: that in the other direction are educated about it and
Speaker 1: choose to just manipulate reality, right right, And that's like
Speaker 1: far less excusable than just being ignorant of a world
Speaker 1: that you don't have any reason to have ever been educated.
Speaker 8: On that world, you know, Yeah, it's it always comes
Speaker 8: out to education. And I think as a group hunters
Speaker 8: we do a pretty good job of getting on our
Speaker 8: soapbox and talking to each other m hm, but we
Speaker 8: don't ever talk to the non hunting public. We're probably
Speaker 8: not going to change anti hunter's minds. But okay, let's
Speaker 8: leave that five percent alone. But that the ninety percent
Speaker 8: in between us, they're they're willing to listen everyone that
Speaker 8: we talked to, and like, you know, that's not even
Speaker 8: last night. We were at a comedy club here and
Speaker 8: there were we were we got you. They're all gonna watch,
Speaker 8: They're all gonna listen to mediator. Yeah, we had the
Speaker 8: whole crag outing, but you know they're willing to listen
Speaker 8: if you're giving them. Oh you know, I didn't know
Speaker 8: that about this. So I didn't know that about that.
Speaker 2: And and they.
Speaker 8: What we're doing by having those conversations is next time
Speaker 8: some bill comes up or something comes up, now they'll
Speaker 8: be like, oh, you know, I remember so and so,
Speaker 8: or I know so and so from work.
Speaker 2: And you know, Steve's a good guy. Steve told me this.
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm I don't.
Speaker 8: Necessarily believe I'm gonna look into this a little bit
Speaker 8: more before I put my name on it, or I'm
Speaker 8: not going to vote that way because I know this
Speaker 8: is BS or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's always been an objective of mine. And
Speaker 1: in imagining that you're having conversations like like through a
Speaker 1: career and talking about hunting and talking about fishing and
Speaker 1: natural resources issues, I have this picture that I'm that
Speaker 1: there's two audiences. One audience is people from completely outside
Speaker 1: of that world looking in, maybe just voyeuristically. Maybe they're
Speaker 1: looking in because they're curious, maybe looking in because they're
Speaker 1: deeply suspicious, but whatever they're looking in on this world.
Speaker 1: And there's also a conversation that you're always having with
Speaker 1: people that are from the world. I much prefer the
Speaker 1: conversations with people that are from the world. Sure, like
Speaker 1: that's just more engaging to me. But I'm aware of
Speaker 1: this other conversation with people that are looking in, and
Speaker 1: I imagine some of the time that backfires. But I
Speaker 1: think a majority of the time, in my experience, which
Speaker 1: is long now, the majority of time it creates a
Speaker 1: bit of understanding and some sympathy. Meaning if they go
Speaker 1: to a Whole Foods and they're presented with the thing
Speaker 1: that would be stop hunting. Yeah, those who spend time
Speaker 1: looking in are gonna more be like what cal said, Well,
Speaker 1: let me see, because I like, I hang out with
Speaker 1: some of those guys. I know some of those guys.
Speaker 1: I've eaten your meat over some of those guys houses,
Speaker 1: the guys I know that are into that world. No
Speaker 1: a shitload about wildlife and really love wildlife. Let me
Speaker 1: take a look. Rather than yeah, I'll sign it hunting,
Speaker 1: screw that, do you know what I mean? I think
Speaker 1: you generally like a majority of interactions create a sympathy,
Speaker 1: understanding empathy of course, or a desire to engage.
Speaker 2: You know, that's part of what we're working.
Speaker 3: So imagine I live in San Francisco. Well now I'm
Speaker 3: a few miles outside, but I was there for a while.
Speaker 3: Imagine you go to San Francisco. Imagine go to Portland, Mangico,
Speaker 3: the Denver, wherever. Here. You drive down the highway and
Speaker 3: you see billboards that are framed for the general non
Speaker 3: hunting public about what hunting is, not to become a hunter,
Speaker 3: but to understand what hunting is right to tackle. I
Speaker 3: don't know things that they don't know, conservation, ecological, economical,
Speaker 3: the the historical, the cultural aspects, whatever it is. Play
Speaker 3: on their emotions about people who do hunt and their stories.
Speaker 3: And wow, women hunt, did you know that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Women hunt? Black people hunt? Did you know that?
Speaker 9: You know?
Speaker 3: Like, let's change the narrative a little bit. When you
Speaker 3: turn on the TV, you see the I don't know
Speaker 3: if it's on anymore, but Sarah mclachy, you know you
Speaker 3: got the Humane Society commercials right.
Speaker 1: Saramhl glaughlan through with those guys. What was her big.
Speaker 2: Hit in the arms of an angel.
Speaker 3: You know, she had a lot, so she had a big, big.
Speaker 4: Hit, probably in the art.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 3: I think there's a few. Big dude.
Speaker 1: Phil for a minute, pulled his mic up to his lips,
Speaker 1: thought better of it and moved it away. What was it, Phil,
Speaker 1: I'm not it's in the arms of it.
Speaker 10: That's that's the big one, and that's the one they
Speaker 10: played on those.
Speaker 1: You can say, ca on Phil, Phil, can you aim
Speaker 1: the camera at me? It's on you?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 1: Filled in one of these.
Speaker 8: And you read my mind exactly.
Speaker 3: Yes. So imagine if you're on the TVC commercials about
Speaker 3: this messaging that would be framed for the general public
Speaker 3: to understand it. Why do we not have this? This
Speaker 3: is a billion dollar industry. We spend a lot of
Speaker 3: money on habitat, a lot of money on and a
Speaker 3: lot of things. A lot of money's coming through Pittman Robertson.
Speaker 3: What is it now, twenty billion?
Speaker 2: It's a lot.
Speaker 3: It's a lot since it's since nineteen thirty seven, Oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all through Yeah, close to a billion bucks a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago.
Speaker 8: Bro On, one point three years ago, just in one year, yeah,
Speaker 8: in twenty twenty.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, I did the COVID personal Firearm Bump.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people, I would like to point out that it's
Speaker 1: told it's so fair and so true that you can't
Speaker 1: talk about Pittman, Roberts and Fun without pointing out this
Speaker 1: reality that money. I mean, let's be honest, that money's
Speaker 1: gun owners.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, a lot like like a lot.
Speaker 1: You can break those gun owners out, but that money.
Speaker 2: Is well gun owners or hunters though, sure, But I'm
Speaker 2: not consistent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just at a time. I think at a
Speaker 1: time when you did that excise, when you for that
Speaker 1: excise tax in nineteen thirty seven, it was viewed as like, well,
Speaker 1: who's gonna be paying this? Yeah, hunters. It has just
Speaker 1: come to be that as cultural things have changed and
Speaker 1: time's going on, that was that was had they at
Speaker 1: the time. Let me put it this way, if at
Speaker 1: the time of the enactment of that act, if they
Speaker 1: had said you need to check a box about what
Speaker 1: you're gonna do with that firearm and if if you
Speaker 1: put down hunting, then it goes to the Pittman robertson fun.
Speaker 1: If they had done that, that fund would be a
Speaker 1: would be much much, much much smaller today than it is,
Speaker 1: just out of fairness, way different.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So when you're talking about like promoting, what I'm saying, Yeah,
Speaker 3: this arbitrary numbers to say seventy million dollars a year
Speaker 3: that we as an industry spend on a media campaign
Speaker 3: throughout the United States a Super Bowl commercial, and I'm
Speaker 3: just saying seventy million. Yeah, but we changed three percent,
Speaker 3: five percent, six percent. This is a generation. We're basically
Speaker 3: doing what the anti hunters have done over decades. They
Speaker 3: have slowly changed the mind. They've they've a sea change
Speaker 3: rather and I grew up in Michigan too. There was
Speaker 3: a time in my life where I thought I didn't
Speaker 3: know people didn't hunt right. Times have changed.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Pat Durkin, speaking of Wisconsin, once said, if you're
Speaker 1: not a deer hunter, you share bed with one, right, right,
Speaker 1: or maybe a house with one. But you get talk
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, so that's what it's fun Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: funny to bring up the billboard thing, because anti hunters
Speaker 1: use the bill board campaigns all the time, very effectively
Speaker 1: and very in a very manipulative, manipulative way. And caw
Speaker 1: was pointing out one around here where there's a they're
Speaker 1: they're equating that dlisting of grizzlies would mean hunting. And
Speaker 1: so there's a picture of a saw with cubs and
Speaker 1: there's a crosshair on the sows on the sow, he'd
Speaker 1: be like, I can assure you a couple one thing.
Speaker 1: The last time they moved to d list Montana wasn't
Speaker 1: issuing any grizzy tags. Right, I can damn sure tell
Speaker 1: you that since you can't shoot a sow black bear
Speaker 1: with cubs, there is no way in the world that
Speaker 1: they're going to open up and extend any harvest that
Speaker 1: would happen in the future to sows accompanied by cubs.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, those are the lies.
Speaker 1: There's there's one right now. There's an organization that has
Speaker 1: always put pushed for a public land trapping band. The
Speaker 1: wolverines were recently listed. And this is a whole deep conversation,
Speaker 1: but wolverine's were recently listed as threatened under the ESA.
Speaker 1: There's now a billboard in town from Gallaton Valley Wildlife Association.
Speaker 1: I think it's like a mostly anti hunting group. They
Speaker 1: have a billboard that says, and these are people that
Speaker 1: always wanted to see a trapping band. It now says
Speaker 1: stop trapping on public land save the endangered wolverine.
Speaker 7: Well, that's part of the problems.
Speaker 1: It is threatened. You can't trap them anyway.
Speaker 10: That's part of the problem with like promoting the positives
Speaker 10: when you're always forced to be in a reactionary position,
Speaker 10: and like fighting these kind of things, like the dude
Speaker 10: in Wyoming is screwed up, Like you're constantly in a
Speaker 10: position of defending yourself rather than promoting yourself.
Speaker 1: And if you do promote it, do you do their
Speaker 1: playbook and just put up totally outrageous lies.
Speaker 3: I don't think we need to be.
Speaker 1: Like hunters are one hundred times more likely than anyone
Speaker 1: else to be great people.
Speaker 7: Have you ever been in an accident hitting a deer,
Speaker 7: Well shoot them all before they kill you.
Speaker 9: No.
Speaker 8: But the biggest problem is that we live in a
Speaker 8: world right now that we are dealing with these just
Speaker 8: memes and little quick right hits, and and the anti
Speaker 8: hunters have such a easy job of swaying public perception,
Speaker 8: like it's very easy to post a picture of a
Speaker 8: guy with a holding a deer with a bloody background
Speaker 8: and whatever, and very negative thoughts are going to come
Speaker 8: to your head, Like you know, if yours don't know
Speaker 8: what hunting is if you're not exposed to hunting. So
Speaker 8: we have this like super hard job of like how
Speaker 8: do we tell people about conservation, about the money, about
Speaker 8: the caring of the wildlife, about the human intrinsic values
Speaker 8: and the things that the meals and all, like all
Speaker 8: these good things that come about with hunting. You know,
Speaker 8: it's probably it's changed, I know, probably everybody's life in
Speaker 8: this room, right. How do we have those conversations when
Speaker 8: you only have three seconds to do it? You know,
Speaker 8: if we had the chance to have like a podcast
Speaker 8: or three hour discussion and nuanced discussion with everybody that
Speaker 8: you encounter, it'd be a lot easier job.
Speaker 2: But we don't. So we have to start coming up
Speaker 2: with ways.
Speaker 8: And I think it's on us to have to start
Speaker 8: talking to we all, you know, we all know people
Speaker 8: that don't hunt.
Speaker 2: We all interact with people.
Speaker 8: At work and you know, at the store or whatever
Speaker 8: that don't hunt. So let's start giving them positive interactions
Speaker 8: with us. Let's start communicating these things with us. Because
Speaker 8: there's what I don't know. The numbers keep changing. Somewhere
Speaker 8: between fourteen to sixteen million people that hunt in the
Speaker 8: United States if one of if we change the mind
Speaker 8: of one or talk to one person every year, you know,
Speaker 8: in ten years we might be a lot closer to,
Speaker 8: you know, having a better understanding with the general public
Speaker 8: or the non hunting public. I should say, of what
Speaker 8: hunting is.
Speaker 3: I don't personally want to see more hunters. I want
Speaker 3: that I'd like to see less hunters. I want to
Speaker 3: see more people accept what hunting is, and not just that,
Speaker 3: but also understand that hunting is an effective management tool
Speaker 3: that is used by these agencies that people don't even
Speaker 3: know exists in the first place. They don't even know
Speaker 3: these agencies exist. So there's a lot of education that
Speaker 3: happen there. But what John was saying, you know, we
Speaker 3: all talked to one person, and we all talked to
Speaker 3: two people or whatever. How do you use I mean,
Speaker 3: I see that as having a positive effect on the
Speaker 3: perception of what hunting is to the general not ending public.
Speaker 3: Do you do you feel the same way? I mean,
Speaker 3: your show's on Netflix. That has to You're not just
Speaker 3: it's not just hunters watching your show.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah. I find it interesting that the oldest representational
Speaker 1: art on Earth is people cataloging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the hunts first ever, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't know what's in their mind. I've always
Speaker 1: written about what I'm interested in and written about my world,
Speaker 1: and as a writer or a creator of some sort,
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about a certain set of ideas,
Speaker 1: and as time changes and technology changes, I'm going to
Speaker 1: continue to talk about a set of ideas that I'm
Speaker 1: interested in and I feel compelled to discuss in whatever
Speaker 1: way is available for me to talk about them. I
Speaker 1: think that had Uh to go back to and in
Speaker 1: no way would ever equate myself to him. But if
Speaker 1: you go back to someone like Roosevelt or you know,
Speaker 1: I mentioned Leopold earlier, I think that they would have
Speaker 1: taken the ideas that they dealt in and they would
Speaker 1: have talked about them on podcasts. I think they would
Speaker 1: have talked about them on social media. They would have
Speaker 1: not have limited it to books, they would have not
Speaker 1: limited it to articles. They were vocal about their enthusiasms
Speaker 1: and vocal about their love, and they had a big impact,
Speaker 1: and they would have talked about in any way possible
Speaker 1: the argument about there's this kind of pervasive argument about
Speaker 1: I had someone to actually frame it to me one
Speaker 1: day about like somehow conservation that get you know, introducing
Speaker 1: people to the idea of hunting, getting people interested in
Speaker 1: hunting was bad for conservation. Let's take a look at
Speaker 1: that for a second. New Mexico is going to issue
Speaker 1: a certain amount of elk tags. It's capped. Okay, if
Speaker 1: you're talking about conservation, a bunch of people wanting to
Speaker 1: apply for elk tags and wanting to go hunting doesn't
Speaker 1: change the number of people that are out hunting. Right
Speaker 1: They're confusing, oftentimes conservation with convenience, meaning they're mad that
Speaker 1: it's not as convenient to get a tag. Don't tangle
Speaker 1: this up with conservation. The elk carvest is fixed. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about conservation for a minute as well. You go
Speaker 1: to Wisconsin, you go to Michigan, wildlife managers are writing
Speaker 1: public letters because they cannot get people to harvest enough deer.
Speaker 1: They're seeing habitat degradation, an unprecedented disease transmission in certain
Speaker 1: areas because they cannot get the dough harvest up. The
Speaker 1: people that are hunting now aren't killing. Does not enough
Speaker 1: conservation in that area. If you want to talk about conservation,
Speaker 1: conservation in that area would be encouraging a type of
Speaker 1: hunter motivated by venison to go out and get does
Speaker 1: that's conservation. Conservation in that case is not saying sh
Speaker 1: don't tell anybody about hunting. Another thing is I find
Speaker 1: it's like, here's something that's incredibly common. You'll have people
Speaker 1: like me that come from a place like I come
Speaker 1: from Michigan. I moved out to Montana out of an
Speaker 1: interest in hunting and fishing. When I came to Montana,
Speaker 1: I moved in on other people's hunting spots. You just did.
Speaker 1: The only person that has any justification to start bitching
Speaker 1: about losing their spot to incoming people would be Native Americans.
Speaker 1: And if you're really, really, really deeply concerned about people
Speaker 1: that had their hunting spots overrun, you should be involved
Speaker 1: in the land back movement in helping Native Americans. If not, Buddy,
Speaker 1: you took someone's spot right when you moved out west.
Speaker 1: You took someone's spot when you started applying for sheep
Speaker 1: tags and goat tags and moose tags and drawing those tags.
Speaker 1: You cut in line from someone that was applying before
Speaker 1: you were applying. You just did. But people's memories are
Speaker 1: so short. Whatever they were motivated by to move out
Speaker 1: west and start hunting. They think that that because it
Speaker 1: was them that was so pure, everybody else since them
Speaker 1: is just an asshole. It's like, come on, man, right,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, come on, and
Speaker 1: there's this other there's this other funny thing too about
Speaker 1: this like industry thing. Like let's say you work. Let's
Speaker 1: say you work in an I was pulling it out
Speaker 1: of thin air. Let's say you worked at the ars
Speaker 1: where you draw your money from federal taxpayer dollars that
Speaker 1: are part of agricultural subsidies. Okay, you know that money's
Speaker 1: coming because it's pork barrel protected. You know that money's coming.
Speaker 1: You never have to market anything, and it why is
Speaker 1: it being that? It's like so weird to see an
Speaker 1: industry where people have to are in the are in
Speaker 1: the open market economy, creating jobs, generating tax revenue. Right,
Speaker 1: It's just it's like upsetting because you live outside of
Speaker 1: a world where there's any accountability. You know, what butters
Speaker 1: your bread? Right, and if it went to a public vote,
Speaker 1: that bread wouldn't get buttered. It just wouldn't. So this
Speaker 1: whole conversation, I would read it. Cal was born in Montana.
Speaker 1: I'm opening to hear col bitch about stuff from Montana.
Speaker 1: I'll indulge it all day long. But this whole like,
Speaker 1: this whole thing is like a ton of guys like me.
Speaker 1: They moved out here and started finding hunting spots. And
Speaker 1: let me tell you, man, there was people hunting those spots. Dude,
Speaker 1: they were you and now you're in that spot. So
Speaker 1: like this conservation question, give me a break, dude. It's convenience.
Speaker 1: It's convenience. It's like you took someone's spot. Someone's in
Speaker 1: your spot now. And you know, what's a couple of things.
Speaker 1: If the person in your spot is a veteran, screw you.
Speaker 1: If the person in your spot's a person with their kids,
Speaker 1: screw you.
Speaker 5: What what? What?
Speaker 3: What makes it your spott?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like go ask the Blackfeet about it and see
Speaker 1: what they think about who's in their spot. Give me
Speaker 1: a break, man. It's just it's just goes on and
Speaker 1: on and it's like just.
Speaker 8: Sh I think it's I think it's a jealousy thing really,
Speaker 8: because you you see somebody having success, or you see
Speaker 8: somebody doing something that you want to do, so automatically
Speaker 8: somehow they're they're cheating to get that, or they're doing
Speaker 8: something wrong to get that. So if that's oh, you know,
Speaker 8: stealing spots or poaching or getting whatever whatever.
Speaker 7: I mean, having different factions fighting with each other is
Speaker 7: never going to help hunting man. It's never.
Speaker 2: Never.
Speaker 10: I'm sure there's still like getting back to the wolf
Speaker 10: thing or the bear thing, like.
Speaker 7: There's hunters out there that tons don't like that ship.
Speaker 2: Yep, you know, there's a really.
Speaker 8: There's a really interesting statistic that goes along with that.
Speaker 8: Every time there is an argument where hunters are on
Speaker 8: both sides of the fence of an issue, whatever that is,
Speaker 8: it almost always it's like in the ninety percentile aligns
Speaker 8: what it what it. When the smoke clears, it ends
Speaker 8: up aligning with anti hunting movement. So think about that
Speaker 8: if you're fighting your fellow hunter about something like Okay,
Speaker 8: this is a simple one trail camban in Arizona.
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't think you can say that that's anti
Speaker 1: hunting thing.
Speaker 8: But there was ani hunters on the side of that,
Speaker 8: So that's what helped tip the scales.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think that's what.
Speaker 8: I'm not saying that anti hunters are driving that. I'm
Speaker 8: saying that if you're this way and this guy's this way.
Speaker 3: They're going to be on a side.
Speaker 8: They're going to go with the side that goes against
Speaker 8: that is true, and it's almost always it never works
Speaker 8: out for hunting. Now, could there can there you know,
Speaker 8: could we have found a better solution than just hey,
Speaker 8: let's get rid of I mean, this is just an
Speaker 8: arbitrary example. But could we have found a better solution.
Speaker 8: Could hunters have gotten together and said, Okay, well I
Speaker 8: agree with you, I don't you know, I don't like
Speaker 8: this happening, or I don't want guys coming in and
Speaker 8: checking their trail cameras while I'm sitting on a water hole.
Speaker 3: Because that's what started it.
Speaker 6: Diverse coalition, right or what wind fights?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 6: So like when you're like, well the anti hunters jumped
Speaker 6: in on this, they're able to skew things at the
Speaker 6: end because they're like, okay, we've heard from this group,
Speaker 6: oh and then here's this other group, and so yeah,
Speaker 6: I can see how that would push a thing. But
Speaker 6: that comes down to why everybody who does anything that
Speaker 6: you like to do, you need to figure out educate
Speaker 6: yourself on how to be a better advocate for those
Speaker 6: things and be willing to be involved, right. I mean,
Speaker 6: we're just at a point in time where if you're
Speaker 6: not going to weigh in on the decision making processes,
Speaker 6: these burdens some regulatory processes where thank god we live
Speaker 6: in a place where public comment periods are built into
Speaker 6: the process, somebody else is going to go in there
Speaker 6: and do it for you, right. And you know, we
Speaker 6: really do have a broad, diverse coalition amongst hunters. But
Speaker 6: you have to say, hey, you know I'm in the
Speaker 6: you know, Plumber's Labor Union. This is where I live,
Speaker 6: this is my family, this is how much money I spend,
Speaker 6: and we do it hunting right, And people need to
Speaker 6: go through and we need to make sure that we're
Speaker 6: checking all those boxes when we're saying, hey, this access issue.
Speaker 6: And I think access to wildlife is a very smart
Speaker 6: way of framing this Colorado issue.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 6: It's like, there is no reasonable science that says we
Speaker 6: shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of this opportunity. Should
Speaker 6: you want to take advantage of the opportunity to just
Speaker 6: pursue lions. But somebody's like, oh, well, there's not a
Speaker 6: lot of them, not a lot of hunters doing that,
Speaker 6: So let's just shut off that little bit of access
Speaker 6: to that opportunity, right, and so well you need Unfortunately,
Speaker 6: like the way a lot of politicians work is like,
Speaker 6: well we've already heard from the hunters, right, but if
Speaker 6: you can go in and say listen, yeah, I do
Speaker 6: some hunting, but really I'm a fly fisherman. This is
Speaker 6: why this issue that doesn't seem to be connected matters
Speaker 6: to me. Or you know, dirt bikes ATVs. All the
Speaker 6: outdoor pursuits. Right, It's like, well, you know, the cat
Speaker 6: hunting thing matters to me because there's no reason to
Speaker 6: stop this group of people from doing what they're doing.
Speaker 6: You're just listening to some other group that says it shouldn't.
Speaker 3: Exist and it doesn't stop there.
Speaker 8: Yeah, people cycles, I'll getting rid of that too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Are we just looking at the issue for the issue
Speaker 8: and not looking at the.
Speaker 2: You know, the side effects that happened to it.
Speaker 6: Right, And like Steve says, people's memories are very short, right, it's.
Speaker 1: Like, oh, yeah, you know there's the thing I want
Speaker 1: to push back on a little bit. And we discussed
Speaker 1: this in the past, is uh, there are gonna become
Speaker 1: times on regulatory issues where the general will of hunters
Speaker 1: is going to align with anti hunters? Oh sure, I
Speaker 1: mean you take a look at this. This is the
Speaker 1: thing I always like to bring up because it was
Speaker 1: so clean, and it was so clean. An instant was
Speaker 1: when the idea of using drones for hunting came in. Okay, right,
Speaker 1: when drones were hitting and becoming this thing just widely available, inexpensive.
Speaker 1: I think one year you had thirteen states come out,
Speaker 1: thirteen Western states come out with drone bands, including Alaska. Right,
Speaker 1: had you gone to the anti hunting world and said,
Speaker 1: should you be able to use a drone for hunting?
Speaker 1: What do you think they're gonna say no? Okay, well
Speaker 1: sort of, they'll you know, Alaska's Game commission. Sure, So
Speaker 1: I don't think like in some of these cases a
Speaker 1: little more complicated than to say like and then they
Speaker 1: side with the ani hunters because it's just right. It's
Speaker 1: it's like you're gonna wind up. I don't even want
Speaker 1: to use the term strange bedfellows, but you're coming out
Speaker 1: of question from opposite directions, but you're landing on that
Speaker 1: question the exact same way. You know, like you can't Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's impossible. I don't want to call it
Speaker 1: an unfortunate accident, but just sometimes they're your sentiment, A
Speaker 1: hunter's sentiment is going to align that way.
Speaker 8: Well, it's the same saying goes with the you know, the
Speaker 8: wyoming wolf thing, but it's do you want them driving
Speaker 8: the policy or do you want the policy to come
Speaker 8: from us?
Speaker 1: Well, in this case, in the drone case, the policy
Speaker 1: very much came from hunters, right. You know, as we
Speaker 1: just heard from some people involved in the commission in
Speaker 1: Arizona on the governor tag issue, like that policy change
Speaker 1: is coming from people who have untarnished reputations as pro hunters. Right.
Speaker 1: It's just some things would be that if your knee
Speaker 1: jerk anti anything having to do with hunting, you're going
Speaker 1: to align oftentimes with hunting restrictions. If a state game
Speaker 1: agency says, do we want to allow nighttime hunting of
Speaker 1: elk with thermals? Right, hunters are going to say what, no?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: And what are anti hunters is going to say? No?
Speaker 3: Of course not?
Speaker 2: So yeah, we we just what something was it last
Speaker 2: year with the horses? We actually so.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, yeah, so we have aligned, you know,
Speaker 3: and I with the Center for Biological Diversity, a couple
Speaker 3: of times, and it's on it's on wild horses.
Speaker 6: I mean, this is not uncommon, right, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 6: go ahead, well, yeah.
Speaker 3: It's it's uncommon in our space. But we basically got
Speaker 3: pictures and documentation from Robin Silver, who I think is
Speaker 3: the co founder of CBD. I believe Apache Sickreise National Forest,
Speaker 3: I think is what it was. They're calling them faral
Speaker 3: horses because yeah, the evidence points to there was a wildfire,
Speaker 3: it burnt down fences of native tribes, their horses got out.
Speaker 3: Now they're living here, so they're not wild horses.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. Yeah, dude, I feel like we
Speaker 1: need you got to provide a little background for people.
Speaker 6: Well, there was a wild horse untarnished by the hands
Speaker 6: of man and manipulation.
Speaker 1: You're doing the background right now?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh thank you? Yeah?
Speaker 7: How far back you going place to see you? Okay?
Speaker 1: Yeah, walk us through a quick chronology because these are confusing.
Speaker 6: So that horse died off several theories as to how,
Speaker 6: but they very well could have been hunted and killed
Speaker 6: by early humans on this continent. By leap forward in time,
Speaker 6: the Spanish arrive with horses at a couple of different
Speaker 6: geographic locations.
Speaker 1: But those.
Speaker 6: Indigenous people to North America, southern North America start stealing
Speaker 6: those mainly for food, and uh, you know, the horses
Speaker 6: run away. Even in modern times, horses run away. So
Speaker 6: this allowed for like another food option out there on
Speaker 6: the on the prairie because they're out there making more horses.
Speaker 6: But I mean that's that's where like, that's how a
Speaker 6: feral population begins. Now we're just like a long road
Speaker 6: down the way.
Speaker 10: So I think what you're getting at is, at this point,
Speaker 10: all wild horses are faral horses.
Speaker 1: There's but there's actually if you went to but there
Speaker 1: was a bifurcation at a point where they looked at
Speaker 1: these sort of ancestral Spanish horses they dubbed we Americans whatever,
Speaker 1: dubbed those wild horses. But if cow's horse ran away,
Speaker 1: that's a feral horse. Those have different governing rules. But
Speaker 1: the world has gotten murky in that among those ancestral
Speaker 1: wild horses. You gotta all kind of runaway feral horses, right,
Speaker 1: And so they do it by not what is the
Speaker 1: animal's history? Where is the animal standing?
Speaker 8: Yeah, geography was that nineteen seventy something, they like made
Speaker 8: boundaries and any horses that were in this I think
Speaker 8: it's in the seventies something like that. Any horses in
Speaker 8: this area is a wild horse. Anything outside of that
Speaker 8: is a federal federal horse.
Speaker 6: Where's a wild horse island here in Montana where they're.
Speaker 7: Crazy.
Speaker 1: But yeah, if you could take you could take your
Speaker 1: You could take a horse you've owned for twenty years,
Speaker 1: put it on the right patch of ground, and that
Speaker 1: horse becomes a wild horse.
Speaker 2: Sure they go farrow very quickly, or they go wild.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I'm sorry.
Speaker 8: Legally, yes, you're right.
Speaker 6: You just got to get rid of any any markings.
Speaker 6: Make sure the brand inspector isn't isn't around you.
Speaker 1: I'm taking something. That's why we need to have the
Speaker 1: right guest. I'm taking something that's so complicated and trying
Speaker 1: to compress it. And I'm not a subject matter expert.
Speaker 1: But anyhow, go ahead. You found yourself on the same side.
Speaker 3: Well, they were, Yeah, they were legally classified as as
Speaker 3: as a feral horses, not not wild. Otherwise I don't
Speaker 3: think anything could have been done. But uh, for that issue,
Speaker 3: we were the squeakiest wheel. Which whenever this had come
Speaker 3: up before.
Speaker 10: The what was the issue, like get rid of them.
Speaker 3: To remove them from. Yeah, like the landscape there was
Speaker 3: just getting decimated. It was just dirt left, no no water.
Speaker 8: With the water situation was the worst thing. They would
Speaker 8: like physically see tanks that elk would normally drink at horse,
Speaker 8: you know, whole brute horses come in.
Speaker 3: And and there was endanger.
Speaker 2: She's oh, yeah, there was an dangerous feture. That's what.
Speaker 3: Else Where the CBD comes in a lot, they're all
Speaker 3: about habitat or something.
Speaker 6: I believe my girlfriends a horse, grew up as a
Speaker 6: horse person. She gets really annoyed with me when we're
Speaker 6: driving through parts of Montana and I point to shitty
Speaker 6: pastures and I'm like, oh, that's a horse property, right.
Speaker 3: It's the truth.
Speaker 1: So in this case, in the desert southwest areas of Nevada, California, Arizona,
Speaker 1: New Mexico, you have a impost wild animal out competing
Speaker 1: true native wildlife for grass and water. And that's the
Speaker 1: that's the that's the like.
Speaker 3: The crux of the issue. And I talked to him
Speaker 3: two days ago, and this might be the guy I
Speaker 3: refer to you if you want to talk to him,
Speaker 3: but he said they've removed five hundred horses now and
Speaker 3: they are going to there's farms, there's I don't know
Speaker 3: what they're called.
Speaker 2: Some of them.
Speaker 8: Yeah, some of them are get relocated. But I think
Speaker 8: some of them are getting.
Speaker 3: People buy them people.
Speaker 1: No, they can't.
Speaker 8: I thought there were some that they had they were
Speaker 8: they approved the lethal takes.
Speaker 1: Oh maybe they were not true wild horses.
Speaker 6: Then they were diseased or cripp the.
Speaker 3: Feral because of the whenever that wildfire happened. They were
Speaker 3: classified as these are feral. These escaped out of the
Speaker 3: out of the indigenous, you know, out of the reservation.
Speaker 1: So they were.
Speaker 3: That's what it was. Yeah, So there's an example of alignment.
Speaker 1: Like the Center for Biological Diversity wanted them removed wildlife
Speaker 1: like more hook and Bullet wildlife activists wanted them removed.
Speaker 3: Back to the CBD. We are fighting them now on
Speaker 3: this uh Catalina Island. And you know about the mule
Speaker 3: deer extermination.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've covered that exhaustively man.
Speaker 3: So uh but they backed up on it. No, No,
Speaker 3: no aerial gunning. That's not going to happen, at least
Speaker 3: not this year. Two days ago, three days ago, the
Speaker 3: Commission approved p l M tags on Catalin Island to
Speaker 3: increase hunting opportunity on the island. That's what we asked for.
Speaker 3: There's but the Humane Society is on our side. There's others.
Speaker 3: It's funny. So yeah, so I was just on Catialen
Speaker 3: Island and.
Speaker 1: You guys been on the phone together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's funny.
Speaker 1: We did.
Speaker 3: We did some podcasts together. I'm like, well, this is
Speaker 3: this is interesting. I'm here with the Humane Society and
Speaker 3: and this lady said, hey, I'm all for hunting, I'm
Speaker 3: all for management.
Speaker 2: We were very surprised about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just not eradication. I'm like, I'm right there with you.
Speaker 1: So that's a not US standpoint.
Speaker 9: No.
Speaker 7: Never, she still worked for them right.
Speaker 1: To get you know, on the billboard.
Speaker 3: So there is a difference. So hs US is is
Speaker 3: kind of like the the national brand, right.
Speaker 1: And that's the animal rights Oh yeah that this causes
Speaker 1: huge confusion.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So hs US and your local Humane Society are not
Speaker 1: the same thing.
Speaker 3: Very different, very different.
Speaker 1: So this was a local maybe a low this is
Speaker 1: this is local.
Speaker 3: However, the the Humane I believe hs US has come
Speaker 3: out in opposition of this because they're just against yeah anything.
Speaker 1: Right, they don't Yeah, they don't entangle themselves into things
Speaker 1: from a habitat perspective. They and they are focused on
Speaker 1: like individual they're focused on welfare of individual animals.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I've recently looked at some interesting documentation out of California
Speaker 1: with hs US where hs US had petitioned the state
Speaker 1: to end California's bear harvest or sorry to to petition
Speaker 1: the state to end California's bear hunt over concerns that
Speaker 1: that populations were plummeting, Which were which was the opposite
Speaker 1: of truth? And then later one of them clarified someone
Speaker 1: I think it was on a podcast. Someone sent me
Speaker 1: a transcript. Someone pressed them, if you're arguing to close
Speaker 1: the bar season based on a population number that you
Speaker 1: understand to be true, what is the population number where
Speaker 1: you would not oppose the bear harvest? And she acknowledged
Speaker 1: there is no number.
Speaker 3: So that was that was actually we actually have our
Speaker 3: video that was actually in a commission meeting. That was
Speaker 3: Commissioner Murray pressed Wendy keif Over, she's the Humane Society
Speaker 3: HSUS representative. She asked her that in a commission meeting,
Speaker 3: what's the number you're happy with? You know, because they
Speaker 3: they didn't know at the time when they when they
Speaker 3: had this petition and we had we had this big meeting.
Speaker 3: We had one hundred and thirty hunters there. I believe
Speaker 3: the Commission was incredible. Gave us the opportunity to talk about,
Speaker 3: you know, what we do with with bear fat, with
Speaker 3: bear meat, like like, really, the California Commissions is giving
Speaker 3: us this incredible opportunity to share our stories, and Humane
Speaker 3: Society was just going nuts like disrupting the meetings. You
Speaker 3: guys can't do this, don't let them talk about that.
Speaker 3: And they're like, wait, it's your petition. You made these claims.
Speaker 3: You made these claims that people don't eat bear, that
Speaker 3: you know they do this and that, and there's only
Speaker 3: thirteen thousand bear in California. Well, we just proved you wrong.
Speaker 3: And one of our scientists at that time nobody knew
Speaker 3: this was coming, stood up, gave a presentation and said, hey,
Speaker 3: we're working on a bear management plan, which is now
Speaker 3: to present they have one. Yeah, the comment period justid
Speaker 3: he goes, I think we're looking at sixty seventy thousand
Speaker 3: bear and it just made was like, what you know,
Speaker 3: did anybody know about this? Because we look like.
Speaker 1: They were pushing twelve five. Yeah, and then the new
Speaker 1: thing is like the most, like the sort of best.
Speaker 1: It's a range of fifty something to eighty something. So
Speaker 1: people are probably the probably sixty five thousand bears.
Speaker 6: But no hunter stood up and said, now you imagine
Speaker 6: sixty seventy thousand hungry bears on the edge of your
Speaker 6: child's playground, right, Okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the other thing you got to resist they made.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they find a lot of hunters tiptoeing into this
Speaker 1: dangerous territory of telling everybody how dangerous wildlife, right, and
Speaker 1: that they're doing you a great service because wildlife is
Speaker 1: so dangerous. And that's another real that's a yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that is a dangerous place to get.
Speaker 8: We never want to vilify the lion or the bear whatever.
Speaker 8: They're just going to do what they do the wolf.
Speaker 2: But it's no, we're full support.
Speaker 3: We love wolves on the landscape, grizzly bear. They deserve
Speaker 3: to be there, but they do need to be managed,
Speaker 3: and I don't know, don't we don't really believe in
Speaker 3: reintroduction or introduction, so sticky, it's.
Speaker 1: Well, cats out of the bag. Yeah, sorry, you're not
Speaker 1: going to put it back, I should have no. No,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying this, like we had a conversation a
Speaker 1: long time ago about with the We had a conversation
Speaker 1: on the show with the woman that ran the that
Speaker 1: that ran the wolf program during the wolf reintroduction in
Speaker 1: the mid nineties in Yellowstone. She looking back, looking back,
Speaker 1: felt that it was unnecessary even now says it was
Speaker 1: unnecessary at the time because we would have landed in
Speaker 1: the same place coming down. We would have landed in
Speaker 1: the same position with natural movement of animals coming in,
Speaker 1: and they were seeing it coming in. While the Colorado
Speaker 1: reintroduction bill was progressing, wolves were showing up from Wyoming.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 1: So, whether or not in twenty years, thirty years, however
Speaker 1: the hell it is, I think you're gonna be stuck
Speaker 1: with the same set of converce You're gonna be stuck
Speaker 1: whether or not those things that happened, you probably stuck
Speaker 1: around the same set of conversations around you are gonna
Speaker 1: I think this is the reality. You are gonna have
Speaker 1: large predators on the landscape. You're gonna have large predators
Speaker 1: on more of the landscape, and there's gonna become a
Speaker 1: question of do we do management practices to uh do
Speaker 1: we tape steps for management practices to reduce conflict and
Speaker 1: to stay with deer and elk herds that we want
Speaker 1: to see, that we hunters want to see, and that's
Speaker 1: gonna be Like it's gonna be somewhere between those two things.
Speaker 1: They're not gonna be gone, right, They're not gonna be gone.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna go back.
Speaker 8: In time and not re eradicate them or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna happen. It can't happen. There's all kinds
Speaker 1: of I mean, we have this whole legal framework that
Speaker 1: they can't allow that to happen.
Speaker 6: But this big pop you know what the prey population
Speaker 6: objectives are going to be. I think you're correct, is
Speaker 6: like going to be a big conversation because like here
Speaker 6: in the state of Montana, right we're like, we love elk,
Speaker 6: we want more elk. A lot of folks in Montana
Speaker 6: are like, we don't want more elk.
Speaker 7: Well, in Colorado, where there there's a new.
Speaker 10: Wolf population getting itself established, at some point they're going
Speaker 10: to have to decide how many will elk are we
Speaker 10: willing to like give to and how many elk are
Speaker 10: we saving for hunters?
Speaker 1: I think it's the only practical conversation and the same
Speaker 1: way we debate between different stakeholders, you know, the same
Speaker 1: way agricultural interests might argue with hunter interests about how
Speaker 1: many elk is the right number elk? How many deer
Speaker 1: is the right number a deer we're gonna have. We're
Speaker 1: gonna have conversations about how many line is the right
Speaker 1: number of lions, how many wolves is the right number
Speaker 1: of wolves, how many grizzly bears is the right number
Speaker 1: of grizzly bears, how many black bears is the right
Speaker 1: number of black bears. I don't think that the conversation
Speaker 1: is never going to return to should we poison them all?
Speaker 1: Its just right, I mean, be realistic.
Speaker 10: But the problem is, like these guys are saying there
Speaker 10: is no number that's big enough for some people.
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, and there's no number of elk it's
Speaker 1: big enough for some people. Right, I don't know many guys.
Speaker 1: I don't know many elk hunors the convenience about having
Speaker 1: I don't know those guys.
Speaker 8: There's a big difference between reintroducing and them coming in
Speaker 8: their own you know, natural attrition.
Speaker 1: Yeah, social friction is a big issue, and I think
Speaker 1: that's part of the To be fair to the woman
Speaker 1: that said we that she sort of questions the move,
Speaker 1: she said, the social conversation that we would have eventually
Speaker 1: got there, the social conversation would have been so different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but even ecologically it's a big difference.
Speaker 1: It's been huge different psychologically.
Speaker 8: So like you drop one hundred wolves into an area
Speaker 8: and all the prey they've never seen a wolf before
Speaker 8: in their life. They don't know how to react towards
Speaker 8: the wolf. It's just like when you go out in
Speaker 8: the woods, deep deep bak back and you run into
Speaker 8: an elkan that's staring at you because he's never seen
Speaker 8: a human before.
Speaker 1: In your backyard. Or on the other he's never seen
Speaker 1: them or they've never heard them. Right, And they.
Speaker 3: Picked the problem wolves. Yeah that's in this case out
Speaker 3: of Oregon. Yeah, like they picked the wolves they wanted
Speaker 3: to get rid of.
Speaker 8: And from what I'm on them, that's like generally what happens. Okay,
Speaker 8: Like a state's like, okay, well we need we need
Speaker 8: to get rid of these problem.
Speaker 2: Childs, and yeah, let's ship them off to this state.
Speaker 8: So you know, you introduce a wolf that's never been
Speaker 8: on a landscape or hasn't been on the landscape for
Speaker 8: one hundred years or whatever. Those animals know how to
Speaker 8: how to deal with it. Also, those wolves don't know, Hey,
Speaker 8: where are my boundaries?
Speaker 2: What do I need to stay in?
Speaker 8: Like they're just going to keep going wherever they want
Speaker 8: to go, and like it just causes more.
Speaker 6: Dan Gates and I were just talking last week about Colorado,
Speaker 6: specifically on the on the wolves. We changed topics for
Speaker 6: a minute, and uh, we're just talking about how it
Speaker 6: is kind of funny where like that celebratory zeal of
Speaker 6: reintroduction has gone away. Yah, don't hear much of that anymore,
Speaker 6: but you are hearing from some of those same sources
Speaker 6: that were so happy about wolves being reintroduced to the
Speaker 6: state of like, oh boy, you know, this is kind
Speaker 6: of hard. This is kind of just because now there's
Speaker 6: as these wolves are getting into the predicted types of friction.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of buyer's remorse.
Speaker 6: There's a yeah, there's like, well, I didn't know it
Speaker 6: would be that, or I didn't know those wolves would
Speaker 6: be here. I thought, you know, So it's not like
Speaker 6: this one hundred percent dedication.
Speaker 1: It's not.
Speaker 6: Yeah, not so much, and It is just interesting because
Speaker 6: third time, now, like our memories.
Speaker 7: Are short, it just proved lethal management for him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh they did.
Speaker 10: Yeah, and there's an official pack now because some of
Speaker 10: them had a couple.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I just saw an article came out. Yeah.
Speaker 3: That goes back to I think if the vote what
Speaker 3: was that Prop one one for in Colorado? If the
Speaker 3: vote was held today, I don't think it would pass. Nope,
Speaker 3: I really don't. Uh, but it goes back to what
Speaker 3: you were saying, people didn't know what they were voting for. Oh,
Speaker 3: I didn't know. It meant that. I didn't know it
Speaker 3: meant this.
Speaker 1: It was worded very weird.
Speaker 3: Yeah it was.
Speaker 1: It was worded in a way that it was sort
Speaker 1: of like a mandate that they, I don't know, set
Speaker 1: into motion a recovery plan or yeah, you know, it
Speaker 1: was under It was understood, but the wording could have
Speaker 1: been confusing.
Speaker 2: I think the wording is always confusing.
Speaker 8: I mean, even people who are trained to be able
Speaker 8: to read through these things and you readthrow a crapdown
Speaker 8: of them. I feel like it's always it's always like
Speaker 8: a word play. There's always like it. So people don't
Speaker 8: like for the lion thing, who's going to go read
Speaker 8: through this thing and see that there's you know, this
Speaker 8: trophy language put in there that could be transposed onto
Speaker 8: elk and deer and stuff in the future, didn't.
Speaker 3: I just see a clip of Cam Haynes. He said,
Speaker 3: I read it and I didn't know how to vote,
Speaker 3: like if it was if it was me voting, because
Speaker 3: I don't know what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just because the way the whole thing.
Speaker 3: Was a word.
Speaker 1: On the issues, the broader wolf issue. I'm of the
Speaker 1: opinion and I think you could you could arrive at
Speaker 1: this from a religious perspective, You could arrive at this
Speaker 1: from a secular historical view would be that there are animals,
Speaker 1: there are wild animals that live on our landscape, okay,
Speaker 1: that have just been there. They're there because God place
Speaker 1: them there. They're there because these billions of years of
Speaker 1: Earth history and all all these evolutions and ecological upheavals
Speaker 1: and things a place in there. But there's a there's
Speaker 1: a static nature to wildlife. And you got and you
Speaker 1: go look and you go like, Okay, at what point
Speaker 1: in history do I go and declare it being normal? Okay?
Speaker 1: Meaning some people would argue, well, the place ischine. That
Speaker 1: should be normal, and we should bring back mammos and
Speaker 1: bring back short face bears and turn them all loose,
Speaker 1: because that's when humans showed up in the New World,
Speaker 1: and so normal should be that day. I tend to
Speaker 1: view normal normal in my mind, just because you have
Speaker 1: to pick an arbitrary point. Normal in my mind is
Speaker 1: the distribution of wildlife at the time of European contact.
Speaker 1: And I don't I don't believe in removing certain turtles
Speaker 1: from the landscape. I don't believe in removing certain birds
Speaker 1: from the landscape. I don't believe in removing certain invertebrates
Speaker 1: from the landscape. I don't like extinction. I don't like
Speaker 1: extra patient. I just don't. I don't care what it is.
Speaker 1: I don't like extinction and extirpation. And here's where it
Speaker 1: gets like a little bit complicated, because I do think
Speaker 1: that a right like like animals have a right to
Speaker 1: be on the landscape. There's a reality that we live
Speaker 1: in and all of those spieceis are going to be
Speaker 1: need to be managed from a very human perspective of
Speaker 1: what are our needs and what are the balancing thing
Speaker 1: because we're here.
Speaker 8: And we're the biggest consumers of everything, and we affect
Speaker 8: more change. We never even have to leave your living
Speaker 8: room to affect what happens out.
Speaker 3: In the woods.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as we as we discovered, like in certain areas,
Speaker 1: like with forest management, not doing anything is not the
Speaker 1: answer in a lot of in a lot of areas,
Speaker 1: not doing anything, letting it do its own natural thing
Speaker 1: isn't the answer, right, because we've we're here, Yeah.
Speaker 3: We're here.
Speaker 1: We've stirred things up so much.
Speaker 2: We got LODs everywhere.
Speaker 8: We consume all these different you know, things that we
Speaker 8: take out of wood or fuel and rocks and sand,
Speaker 8: and sure everything's disrupted by by man. And there's what
Speaker 8: eight billion of us on the on the planet.
Speaker 9: Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like grizzly bears. Yeah, I like seeing them.
Speaker 1: I've never been sad to see a grizzly bear. I
Speaker 1: love grizzly bears. I don't think grizzly bears should be
Speaker 1: listed under the.
Speaker 3: Es A right, agreed.
Speaker 1: It's like both of those things are simultaneously true for me.
Speaker 1: I love them. It's time to come off the list.
Speaker 3: You said a lot right there, So you went, you
Speaker 3: went back thousands of years for animals and you brought
Speaker 3: up God or you brought up evolution, whatever it is
Speaker 3: that that people believe. I think the same idea exists
Speaker 3: for humans because people say, oh, they were here first
Speaker 3: or it's their home. Well, where are we from? You know,
Speaker 3: where exactly are we from? If you believe in the
Speaker 3: evolutionary process or the creation process, what we still land
Speaker 3: here on earth?
Speaker 1: Like imagine someone in Africa saying, well, they were here first? Yeah,
Speaker 1: define who's there right right?
Speaker 3: And it's always just an interesting It really throws me
Speaker 3: off when I when I hear that a lot, the
Speaker 3: whole they were here first thing and you know, basically,
Speaker 3: but the other thing that you brought up about grizzlies
Speaker 3: and ESA and you brought it up earlier with some billboards.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a holl sponsored billboard, but I designed maybe
Speaker 3: you've seen it. I think it's at the north end
Speaker 3: of Yellowstone in the South in Wyoming, there's a billboard
Speaker 3: that says, I think it's like grizzly bear recovery is
Speaker 3: a conservation success story. So I designed that or whoever
Speaker 3: put it up, and that inspired apparently all these other
Speaker 3: billboards that I think some of the trapping organizations or
Speaker 3: whoever the ones that you mentioned earlier that they've been
Speaker 3: putting up, because it wasn't the typical billboard that would
Speaker 3: come from hunters. Because what I was presented with was, hey,
Speaker 3: do you have any ideas on this on billboards? I said, well,
Speaker 3: what do you got this? And it was like a
Speaker 3: bunch of furs hanging and something like smoke a pack
Speaker 3: of day I don't know, something like that.
Speaker 6: And I'm like, Okay, where are you putting popular bumper?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Yes? Where where exactly are you putting this? Well, you know,
Speaker 3: the entrance to Yellowstone, Like, Okay, who's coming in and out? Tourists?
Speaker 3: Probably people who don't hunt. I can't believe you're thinking
Speaker 3: this way, So let me work on it. Let's let's
Speaker 3: let's take the grizzly bear situation. Let's look at the
Speaker 3: success story. It is a success story. Let's make it that.
Speaker 3: Let's challenge the public who's coming in. Let's challenge the
Speaker 3: the the anna hunters with kind of their own rhetoric
Speaker 3: and give the actual success story here. We have so
Speaker 3: many things and positive things that we can talk about
Speaker 3: that we've done in the last one hundred years. That's
Speaker 3: the kind of stuff we need the market. That's the
Speaker 3: kind of stuff, you know, that that we need to
Speaker 3: get out there. And apparently apparently that billboard really struck
Speaker 3: a nerve with with the Anna hunting orgs because they're
Speaker 3: not they're shoot. We need to we need to combat
Speaker 3: that a little bit because that's not their usual strategy.
Speaker 3: Usually it's easy. Usually it's you know, some organizations got
Speaker 3: a you know, trailer going down the highway representing the organization.
Speaker 3: They got a picture of a wolf and a and
Speaker 3: a scope ratical over the over the wolf. I'm like,
Speaker 3: is that so that's your one chance to talk to
Speaker 3: the general public and that's what they see is just
Speaker 3: kill them all to minds with that, that's what we're
Speaker 3: putting out. Yeah, you're not winning anything, but it just
Speaker 3: it made me think of that when you brought that up.
Speaker 3: You know, back to the optics thing and back to
Speaker 3: to to messaging and you know where I think we
Speaker 3: should be as an as an industry what we should
Speaker 3: be doing the.
Speaker 1: Question with with grizzlies too. That's interesting in how people
Speaker 1: position it to say that it's hunters that want them off.
Speaker 1: People lose sight of the fact that you know, who
Speaker 1: keeps trying to get them off. Is the federal agency
Speaker 1: that has managed them since the seventies, Yeah, the US
Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife Service. Yeah, are the ones moving to
Speaker 1: remove them from the list? Ye, they're getting like the
Speaker 1: management agent, the federal management agency is getting blocked from
Speaker 1: doing what they think their job is to do, which
Speaker 1: is removing from the list. You leave you can leave
Speaker 1: the states out of that for a minute, because it's
Speaker 1: it's them saying.
Speaker 8: It's imagine that job. You know, you got to do this,
Speaker 8: but I'm not going to give you any tools to
Speaker 8: do that with.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's it. That's the thing to get
Speaker 1: lost here. And it was the same thing with wolves.
Speaker 1: The US Fish and Wildlife Service moved to remove wolves
Speaker 1: from the list. They initiate the conversation.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would love to get somebody on that we
Speaker 6: can talk about like accurate numbers of lethal removal, because
Speaker 6: like when I went back and did the Idaho bear
Speaker 6: capture with Idaho Fishing Game, it was I think it
Speaker 6: was just prior to July fourth weekend and at that point,
Speaker 6: Montana had killed twenty six grizzly bears that that year.
Speaker 6: For you know, conflict mitigation basically yeah, and you know,
Speaker 6: and typically Wyoming's twice what Montana is and you know,
Speaker 6: Idaho is a handful. So and that's what I see
Speaker 6: all the time, is like, well, if you d list
Speaker 6: hunters are going to kill the it's like, well, somebody's
Speaker 6: killing him right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 8: California is a great example of that with with the Mountalliance.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't it doesn't mean yeah to your point,
Speaker 3: I asked that question to uh, all right, if grizzly
Speaker 3: bears are delisted, what's that mean? Maybe twenty hunting tags
Speaker 3: in Montana.
Speaker 1: Well, the first year it was zero. Okay, the first
Speaker 1: year it was twenty four and Wyoming okay one, and
Speaker 1: it which was like I love it exauist the classic wholming. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's twenty four in Wyoming. Idaho was doing a symbolic
Speaker 1: one just to exercise the right.
Speaker 6: Shirt, which was only open to residents, and I got
Speaker 6: to apply for that tag.
Speaker 1: In Montana on the fish drop, the Fishing Game Agency,
Speaker 1: Montana's Fishing Game Agency under Martha Williams at the time,
Speaker 1: decided to sit it out.
Speaker 2: Didn't want to deal with the bs.
Speaker 1: Probably that just they wanted to see I mean, while
Speaker 1: they want to and the smart thing, I don't want
Speaker 1: to put it that way, not smart thing, but I mean,
Speaker 1: these other states are conducting tag draws.
Speaker 7: They went through, you know, they spent some money on that.
Speaker 1: They're like they were, they were rolling, and so I
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to, you know, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I was involved in all the conversations, but I could picture.
Speaker 1: I could picture both ways. I could picture an eagerness
Speaker 1: to exercise the right. I could also picture saying I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I have a feeling about where this might go
Speaker 1: in the courts, and I'm not gonna go start printing
Speaker 1: tags and whatnot because I don't have.
Speaker 6: The whole system to return people's money.
Speaker 1: I don't know that this is going through, right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but that brings up a good Wyoming point too, right,
Speaker 6: because you know, Wyoming's like, yep, we're gonna hunt grizzly
Speaker 6: bears the twenty tags. And again, I in Idaho at
Speaker 6: the time, and I was our aready working with Idaho
Speaker 6: Fishing Game to a degree to figure out how to
Speaker 6: change the requirements for bear harvest in Idaho because grizzly
Speaker 6: is such a political football and we're staring at Wyoming,
Speaker 6: where it's like, you don't legally have to take anything
Speaker 6: other than the trophy parts. We're like, well, if this
Speaker 6: isn't going to blow up in our face, then nothing
Speaker 6: will right.
Speaker 3: And it's like that.
Speaker 6: It's another example of hunters probably following in line with
Speaker 6: some anti hunters. It's like, oh, I bet if you
Speaker 6: made them take the meat, they wouldn't want to do it, right.
Speaker 3: That's one of the Maggie's still there. That's one of
Speaker 3: the things Maggie that I know American Bear Foundation and
Speaker 3: Wyoming Wildlife Federation is wanting to get pushed through in
Speaker 3: Wyoming is it's one of the few states that doesn't
Speaker 3: have wanton waste laws.
Speaker 5: Iaho.
Speaker 7: It's you don't have to take it in Idaho.
Speaker 6: Now still not on black bear on bear, which was
Speaker 6: according when I was digging in the weedze on that
Speaker 6: it was burdensome to the state to uh have to
Speaker 6: you can just dispose of the carcass and the landfill
Speaker 6: for problem bears or the state would also have to
Speaker 6: adhere to the same regulations, was the way it was
Speaker 6: explained to me. Yeah, as as a hunter, harvest can.
Speaker 3: Be true.
Speaker 1: If you had if the state has wanton waste laws
Speaker 1: on ducks, and they got wanton waste laws on elk,
Speaker 1: and they got wanton waste laws on deer and doves.
Speaker 1: It would just by a matter of logic extended, they
Speaker 1: would have wanton waste laws on black bears. Right, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna share. Let me share you with you. I want
Speaker 1: to share with you. Quick quote, uh John Mack the
Speaker 1: historian John mac farrager who John mac ferriger, a historian
Speaker 1: who is raised and partly educated in California, and describing
Speaker 1: the frontier of colonial America, you want to already said?
Speaker 1: He said, European settlers and Native Americans alike considered bear
Speaker 1: meat the prime game meat. Venison was inferior eating. So
Speaker 1: I I don't know why if a state is going
Speaker 1: to go through the trouble spelling out wanton waste laws,
Speaker 1: they wouldn't extend it to Yeah. Why is that the exception?
Speaker 1: Yea uns because some squeamish people think it's icky.
Speaker 7: Maybe the trick and osis thing.
Speaker 1: Well, then they should have it. They eat then that they.
Speaker 7: Then I'm not you must cook it, Yeah, like.
Speaker 1: Your chicken and like your pork, and like your bacon.
Speaker 3: You gotta cook it exactly and bear is delicious. How's
Speaker 3: he going to say? I think that's my favorite game
Speaker 3: to eat is black bear. I absolutely love it. And
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's because if it's a it
Speaker 3: could be a combination.
Speaker 6: Are you coming from A I'm coming from definitely.
Speaker 7: You don't got to convince us. But like, I went
Speaker 7: on a bear hunt in Idaho where.
Speaker 3: There was a group.
Speaker 7: Of hunters and it was hound hunting, and I was
Speaker 7: the only one it took that bear meat home.
Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, but buck Bowden just told you
Speaker 1: it's an exception for one of his clients to take.
Speaker 7: His moose meat. It's like a convenience thing. It's like
Speaker 7: I don't want to be bothered with it, which is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: I had a friend that went on a bear hunt
Speaker 1: in Canada and they were so flabbergas that he wanted
Speaker 1: to bring his bear home from the bear hunt. They
Speaker 1: tried to convince him that he couldn't.
Speaker 2: He did that to me in Quebec.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to be like, what do you mean,
Speaker 1: I can't? He just can't because of this that and
Speaker 1: their thing. So he started making some calls around and
Speaker 1: he's like, listen, I can, and I'm gonna.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had to fight with him about it.
Speaker 8: I left two bears in Quebec and this is like
Speaker 8: twenty years ago now, and the guy's like, no, you
Speaker 8: can't take them here.
Speaker 2: They're riddled with worms.
Speaker 1: Oh no, they were giving them like a like a
Speaker 1: regulation thing the border. Well, he did all of his
Speaker 1: own homework.
Speaker 8: I was going to fly it back because I flew there.
Speaker 8: I mean I didn't drive. I was living in Arizona, Quebecs,
Speaker 8: you know, but m Yeah, they wouldn't let me take
Speaker 8: it back. And then I found out afterwards when I
Speaker 8: got back that it was bs that I had. You know,
Speaker 8: I didn't just brought it to a meat process or
Speaker 8: maybe got a frozen and chipped or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: He didn't even get my heights.
Speaker 1: Never got them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was weird.
Speaker 1: If people want to debate the merits of salvage requirements,
Speaker 1: debate the merits of salvage requirements, But if you're gonna
Speaker 1: apply salvage requirements to game animals, I mean it just
Speaker 1: seems like it can just apply if you like, I
Speaker 1: know what side I would argue on. But if you
Speaker 1: want a debate, like, can the government tell you to
Speaker 1: remove certain stuff from the woods. Alaska uses salvage requirements
Speaker 1: in a way to almost like guide's activities. They have
Speaker 1: areas where they're like, you have to bring the moose
Speaker 1: ribs out on the rack. I think they even had
Speaker 1: an area where you needed to remove the liver. They
Speaker 1: got areas where certain permits if you kill a moose,
Speaker 1: you gotta cut its antler in half, muscos, you gotta
Speaker 1: destroy its trophy value if you're gonna hunt the area.
Speaker 1: So they're and this is not a softy state, I'll
Speaker 1: point out, No, they're guiding. They're directly saying, here's who
Speaker 1: we want. These are the people we're looking for. If
Speaker 1: you're gonna hunt moose in this area, you're gonna be
Speaker 1: the kind of guy that's gonna bring the ribs out
Speaker 1: on the bone, or you're gonna be the kind of
Speaker 1: guy that's willing to cut that antler in half and
Speaker 1: then bring it out because it's you know, they're they're they're.
Speaker 8: Because they want to see you pack out an extra
Speaker 8: couple hundred pounds.
Speaker 1: They're just they're sort of playing there. I mean, I'll
Speaker 1: put it gently, I mean they're playing favorites with certain
Speaker 1: user groups.
Speaker 3: Can you clue those antlers back together?
Speaker 6: No, for sure you can't. Like the state of the
Speaker 6: State of Montana two years ago they changed the regulations
Speaker 6: to where you don't have to keep your duck legs yep.
Speaker 6: And I'm like, I'm the type of person where I'm like,
Speaker 6: if you don't know how to cook a duck leg
Speaker 6: and eat it, you shouldn't be hunting ducks.
Speaker 1: Sure, pretend your game regulation? Yeah, tell us How? Tell
Speaker 1: us how people can find out about how and read
Speaker 1: the what you guys get involved in?
Speaker 3: How for wildlife dot org social media, we basically do
Speaker 3: everything on Instagram. It's just the path we chose. That's
Speaker 3: how underscore org and uh uh, you can sign up
Speaker 3: for free alerts so when we do have actions, you
Speaker 3: get those emails. Those emails are very detailed. We work
Speaker 3: with a lot of state partners we call them conservation partners,
Speaker 3: but basically to get on the right track with everything,
Speaker 3: it's not us and how saying we should do this,
Speaker 3: we should write it up this way. We're very very
Speaker 3: reliant on who we consider the experts. So when you
Speaker 3: get that information, it's probably going to be the best
Speaker 3: info you find on that on that issue on you know,
Speaker 3: here it is broken down and then here's how you
Speaker 3: get involved.
Speaker 1: And you guys covered you got what is your explain
Speaker 1: to people what your sort of jurisdiction is around the country,
Speaker 1: Like what states do you follow?
Speaker 3: The issues in every everything? It depends on how much time.
Speaker 3: We're very small. It depends on how much time we have,
Speaker 3: the how much time we have to act on the issue.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's it'll come up and we got to do
Speaker 3: something in five days. It's it's really how.
Speaker 8: It's whether or not we can affect change on it too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And our our system is kind of complex, so
Speaker 3: it takes some time to build that. But we we meet,
Speaker 3: you know, with with our group with Everett he Everett
Speaker 3: had Lee he's a part of hall and and Mike Costello,
Speaker 3: who's uh, who's a part of holl And. Then it's
Speaker 3: John and myself and we have a few writers besides that.
Speaker 3: That's that's it. So we're heavily relying on those. On
Speaker 3: those partners, we decide is this a good thing for
Speaker 3: us to get involved in, will it be effective? Does
Speaker 3: the bill have legs? There's that too, because I don't
Speaker 3: want to waste people's time there's thousands of bills.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you mean things that are just gestures.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many of those.
Speaker 2: We had one the other day.
Speaker 8: You actually told me yesterday that it was there was
Speaker 8: all my care. You take a look at this because
Speaker 8: we had one of our partners reached out, he's like, hey,
Speaker 8: can you look into us?
Speaker 3: A lot of people reach out, like from all over
Speaker 3: the world really actually, hey can you help us with this?
Speaker 3: Can you help us with that? So trying to kind
Speaker 3: of boil that down and see what's really important, balance
Speaker 3: it with our time and you know what can be impactful.
Speaker 3: That's that's definitely a challenge. But again, we really we
Speaker 3: really rely on our on our partners.
Speaker 1: And you guys will often send you guys will often
Speaker 1: send your audience outside of Howell to where they need
Speaker 1: where like you'll alert them and send them to other
Speaker 1: partners who are positioned to take on that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Perfect example. Probably the largest example is is uh
Speaker 3: crw M Colorado's Responsible Wildlife Management. You've had you've had
Speaker 3: Dan on here. You know what's going on there. We
Speaker 3: recognize that they are spearheading that issue in Colorado. They
Speaker 3: are set up to campaign against it, they are set
Speaker 3: up to fight it legally. Everything you know, they're they
Speaker 3: are a C four. So in recognizing that we have
Speaker 3: made that a national issue, talk to Dan in October
Speaker 3: or September. They didn't have Instagram. I don't think he'd
Speaker 3: ever been on a podcast before. He was going to
Speaker 3: need a lot of help. Where we came in was
Speaker 3: all right, we're going to tell everybody about you and
Speaker 3: make this a national make this a national issue, and
Speaker 3: through all people John knows and the few people I
Speaker 3: know and whatnot we reached out to.
Speaker 2: I think he's been on seventy five podcasts now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it was through through Yannis
Speaker 3: is what eventually brought him here. But yeah, we are
Speaker 3: willing to promote other organizations to We certainly tell people
Speaker 3: who want to donate to us because they don't know
Speaker 3: any better. They're like, oh, we should donate to you
Speaker 3: for this Colorado thing. Or I'm like, no, we can't,
Speaker 3: we can't do anything there. But who you should donate to?
Speaker 3: And we should talk are these guys?
Speaker 1: Why?
Speaker 8: Because there's a misconception out there and I think I
Speaker 8: think that that number actually gets misconstrued a lot, like, oh,
Speaker 8: I don't want to you know, donate to so and
Speaker 8: so because they can use eighty percent of their other
Speaker 8: money to our salaries and blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 8: But the actual number is only twenty percent of your
Speaker 8: expenditure as a five oh one C three could be
Speaker 8: used towards lobbying and so everything else has to be
Speaker 8: either educational or administrative or working on projects and so
Speaker 8: on and so forth. So people take that number of
Speaker 8: the misconstrue it. So we recognized in that situation that
Speaker 8: Charles has just giving you that, Okay, if one hundred
Speaker 8: thousand dollars came to us, then we can only spend
Speaker 8: twenty thousand dollars doing it. It's money not well spent, right.
Speaker 8: We yes, we could have did a lot of educational
Speaker 8: things to make it work, but it's the person that's
Speaker 8: going to be the most effective.
Speaker 2: We want to win. Yeah, that's what we are who
Speaker 2: want We want to win.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are rules basically is there's rules to five
Speaker 3: and one C threes. But overall, I think you know,
Speaker 3: as a organizationally, the five and one C threes, the
Speaker 3: C four is the national brands, the state, the national organizations,
Speaker 3: the state organizations, they tend to it's it's competitive. It's
Speaker 3: a little bit competitive, and if one of those orgs
Speaker 3: kind of takes on an issue, it's hard to get
Speaker 3: the other orgs to to support these guys over here
Speaker 3: who are leading that charge. When but you know, for
Speaker 3: the results that we want, we should all jump on board.
Speaker 3: We should all jump on board. Yeah, right, because we
Speaker 3: want to win this thing, right, I don't I don't
Speaker 3: care who's who's who's leading the fight or whatever.
Speaker 2: We don't need the recognition for it.
Speaker 8: Like, yeah, okay, who cares if it's this org or
Speaker 8: that org that was leading the fight. As long as
Speaker 8: everybody aligns with the same messaging and the same purpose,
Speaker 8: let's let's get there. Yeah, let's let's you know, make
Speaker 8: a difference.
Speaker 3: We'd like to actually, you know, if people ask us
Speaker 3: what our mission is or whatnot, I actually want to
Speaker 3: go out of business, which would be you know, thirty
Speaker 3: years from now. We have enough public support to make
Speaker 3: the ani hunting argument irrelevant. And I really do think
Speaker 3: that can be done through the right through the right channels.
Speaker 3: We touched on it earlier, but that can't be done.
Speaker 3: But that's our goal, actually go out of business. So
Speaker 3: because I would much rather go hunting and spend time
Speaker 3: doing the things I like to do instead of instead
Speaker 3: of this full time job which has been basically the
Speaker 3: last yeah, three years since we kind of started working
Speaker 3: on it.
Speaker 6: Or you go hunting, now, what you think about or
Speaker 6: the issue is not the fun stuff.
Speaker 8: It's yeah, I was talking the other day. We're I mean,
Speaker 8: that's my best hunting buddy right there. We hunted all
Speaker 8: over the country together. Now when we get together, we
Speaker 8: talk about how stuff instead of talking about, oh did
Speaker 8: you see that elk over there? And you know, how
Speaker 8: should we approach that?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: And we hunt once a year now since we started
Speaker 3: that's yeah, yeah, so it takes a lot of time,
Speaker 3: but together.
Speaker 2: Once a year we still hunt a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah together, Yeah.
Speaker 6: I gotta I gotta give you guys a plug, right, Steve,
Speaker 6: you I've heard of meat Eater experiences. Oh right, So
Speaker 6: Cypress Cove, Louisiana, we're going to be down there hosting fishing,
Speaker 6: doing a bunch of super fun stuff. A bunch of
Speaker 6: us and Howl for Wildlife is going to be donating
Speaker 6: to a spot for two people to Cypress Cove with
Speaker 6: the Meat Eater crew. Oh all, you got to do
Speaker 6: is go over to howl for Wildlife dot org and
Speaker 6: get a membership, right, and then you'll be entered to
Speaker 6: win the trip for two to Cypress Cove with everybody
Speaker 6: here at meat Eater. Now, if you want to skip
Speaker 6: that line or the random draw, you can go to
Speaker 6: the meat eater dot com forward slash Experiences and use
Speaker 6: the code howel dash five hundred dash donation and when
Speaker 6: you buy your spot to Cypress Cove, five hundred bucks
Speaker 6: goes back to howe for Wildlife dot org. Oh what
Speaker 6: do they put in howel dash five hundred dash donation?
Speaker 3: Got it?
Speaker 1: Thank you, Cal and thank you guys, Thank you, thank
Speaker 1: you appreciate that coming on the show. And we'll wait
Speaker 1: a couple of months and the whole landscape will change.
Speaker 1: You can come back on and talk about it again. Yep,
Speaker 1: you'd be like we won, all right, guys, thanks for
Speaker 1: coming on, man, Thank you.
Speaker 5: Is They looked out for Bumpey's pillar.
Speaker 11: Such abundance and be wooty they saw. But when they
Speaker 11: looked century later, that value was empty, and the animals
Speaker 11: where were gone. Now they looked at one another, they said,
Speaker 11: what will we do now? Well, our livelihoods ending Yeah,
Speaker 11: but I'll be damn if that's the last one.
Speaker 5: That I saw said. Our wildlife must be made team.
Speaker 4: M h.
Speaker 5: For our lifestyle to still.
Speaker 1: Be made.
Speaker 11: Conservation it is called mem.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this wildlife is worth.
Speaker 11: More harvest for the market, owned by the people.
Speaker 5: All all the wild things in time held trunced by all.
Speaker 11: The agent sees to be managed but not confined by
Speaker 11: state lines. And later all those sense the problem. After
Speaker 11: the war was fought and was won. Folks, our food
Speaker 11: came from the grocery, you know. He comes from chopping
Speaker 11: and semonid around nothing.
Speaker 5: Our wildlife must be maintained.
Speaker 11: For our lifestyle to still remain.
Speaker 5: Conservation. He is calling me, you have this, wowld it is.
Speaker 1: Worth Wildlife is a citizen owned renewable resource held in
Speaker 1: trust by an agency that assesses and allocates the resource
Speaker 1: in a democratic fashion, with an eye toward people utilizing
Speaker 1: it but not damaging it in the long term.
Speaker 12: Wolde must be mad to him for our lifestyle to
Speaker 12: still remain. Conservation is calling me, yeah.
Speaker 5: This wildlife is worth living.
Speaker 10: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 11: Conservation is calling me.
Speaker 5: Yea, this wildlife
Speaker 11: Is worth living.