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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome through. You can happen here. It's James

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Speaker 3: today and I'm joined by Luca and Sailor. They're both

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Speaker 3: from Breadblock, which is a mutual aid group in San Diego.

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Speaker 3: How are you doing today?

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Speaker 4: We're doing great, great.

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Speaker 1: How are you wonderful?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thriving. I've just received my seventy fifth COVID

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Speaker 3: booster I think, I think so having a little miserable day,

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Speaker 3: but that's okay, not going to get novel coronavirus, which

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Speaker 3: is always nice. So can you guys start out by

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Speaker 3: maybe explaining, well, what Breadblock does, how long it's done it,

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Speaker 3: and why it does it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So we are a mutual a group. We mostly

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Speaker 5: provide hot food. That's like the core of our services.

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Speaker 5: We feed about one hundred people like like eighty to

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Speaker 5: one hundred people depending on the day weekly in East

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Speaker 5: Village in San Diego. We also provide clothing and harm

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Speaker 5: reduction supplies and other things like tampons and plan b

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Speaker 5: when we can get our hands on it, and we

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Speaker 5: try to be we are there like at the same

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Speaker 5: time every day. I will not say the exact location,

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Speaker 5: but if you are interested in getting involved, you can

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Speaker 5: always reach out And that's like what we're doing right now,

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Speaker 5: and that happens weekly and sale am I missing anything?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So this form of what we're doing with bread

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Speaker 6: Block in a more organized way has We've only been

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Speaker 6: doing it a few months. However, Initially we started doing

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Speaker 6: it in twenty twenty one when I started getting into

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Speaker 6: harm reduction stuff and I was working at a strange

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Speaker 6: exchange and realized a lot of people would be asking

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Speaker 6: for food and we weren't getting that out there, and

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Speaker 6: so that's why the initial idea came about. And then

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Speaker 6: we just had enough people who were willing to do

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Speaker 6: it in a weekly manner, so that's how we chose

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Speaker 6: that location.

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Speaker 4: And started doing that.

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Speaker 6: There's just a lot of people down there on those nights, so.

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Speaker 5: It's time to happen at the same time that a

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Speaker 5: harm reduction services happen the needle exchange, So it's at

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Speaker 5: a time when a lot of people are down there

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Speaker 5: and the amount of time are like collective doing this

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Speaker 5: specific thing as exist is I believe since end of

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Speaker 5: March early April is how long we've been like consistently

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Speaker 5: providing services every week.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great. That's a long time. So especially through

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Speaker 3: like some it could be a difficult time. If you

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Speaker 3: don't have a house in San Diego, it gets increasingly

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Speaker 3: it gets very hot, and the streets themselves get hot,

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Speaker 3: and that becomes dangerous for people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: So I want to start with like, at some point, right,

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Speaker 3: say that you were doing a syringe exchange and you

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Speaker 3: are like, these people need to be fed. They are hungry,

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Speaker 3: and now we're here and you're feeding them every week, right,

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Speaker 3: But you had to do a whole lot of things

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Speaker 3: in between here and there. And like I know this

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Speaker 3: because listeners email me all the time. So many people

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Speaker 3: want to do that too, and it might not exist

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Speaker 3: where they are. They might not know, So, like, can

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Speaker 3: you explain how you went about like seeing a need

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Speaker 3: and then organizing to meet that need.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So I guess what came before that was we

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Speaker 6: had already built relationships with each other around our leftist

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Speaker 6: ideals and art and protesting and different stuff. So we

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Speaker 6: already knew a lot of people who were who were

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Speaker 6: interested in mutual aid and that capacity. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 6: will say things like Instagram have helped just meet more

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Speaker 6: people who are looking to get involved in mutual aid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Like Selah said, we had like had spent some time

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Speaker 5: building community with each other and getting a core group

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Speaker 5: of people that trust each other, that had gone to

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Speaker 5: protests together, that were maybe in like affinity groups already

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Speaker 5: with each other, and then there was just sort of

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Speaker 5: like enough of us that were in community with each

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Speaker 5: other at the time that when Sala was like the

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Speaker 5: Encampment band is like really making things so much worse

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Speaker 5: for people in communities and we really need to do something,

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Speaker 5: we were like, all just like it just happened because

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Speaker 5: we were all sitting in a room together one night

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Speaker 5: after a like social event, and Sala was like, we

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Speaker 5: need to talk about this, and we were like, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 5: we like need to do this, and we had enough

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Speaker 5: people where we could pull together a first distro and

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Speaker 5: then a second and then gradually adding like more organizations

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Speaker 5: so that we could continue doing it sustainably over time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's like I want to be opinion the

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Speaker 3: camping band, because the Camping Band is making things worse

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Speaker 3: for people who are already having a hard time just

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Speaker 3: surviving here, and it fucking sucks, and it's tod glorious fault.

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Speaker 3: You shouldn't vote.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about though, Like I want to get into

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Speaker 3: nuts and bolts, right, feeding one hundred people, Right, you

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Speaker 3: need a giant ass pan, you need loads of food,

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Speaker 3: you need a place where you can cook. How did

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Speaker 3: you identify all those things and how did you get

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Speaker 3: to a place where you could regularly have those things?

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Speaker 6: So in twenty twenty one, when I had initially started

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Speaker 6: this with kind of a different group of people, but

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Speaker 6: there were definitely over us, we just did it and

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Speaker 6: like used my mom's kitchen and bound some big pots

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Speaker 6: and just made it happen. And I feel like, if

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Speaker 6: you have the will to make it happen, you're going

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Speaker 6: to figure it out. And you know, maybe in the

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Speaker 6: beginning it was a lot more chaotic, which you know,

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Speaker 6: we are anarchists, so we're okay with the chaos. But

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Speaker 6: it just after doing it a week after week, it

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Speaker 6: just became more streamlined. And you know, we just buy

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Speaker 6: a lot of essential bulk food and we have a

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Speaker 6: few giant popsy We like to make.

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Speaker 4: Soup a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Currently, our kitchen is like like, our cooking equipment includes

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Speaker 5: two large pots and a rice cooker that someone recently

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Speaker 5: donated to us. And then we needed a fridge, so

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Speaker 5: we got a free fridge off offer up and cleaned

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Speaker 5: it up and put some cool stickers on it and

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Speaker 5: then plugged it into a garage. Currently, the kitchen that

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Speaker 5: we use is like a couple of us just like

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Speaker 5: live together, and so we use our kitchen and we

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Speaker 5: have access to our garage and we just stored the

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Speaker 5: supplies in the garage. We stored the fridge in the garage,

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Speaker 5: and we make it work through donations we get on Instagram.

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Speaker 5: So we knew some comrades that work with the community fridges.

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Speaker 5: There's like some community fridges in San Diego, and so

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Speaker 5: they already had a relationship with a grocery store and

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Speaker 5: so we were able to hop in on that and

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Speaker 5: we get some donations from that, we get some donations

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Speaker 5: from what's sale the group.

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Speaker 7: Oh fortunate or fortunate.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And there's so much food waste that I feel

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Speaker 6: like if we were to find the right people, we

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Speaker 6: could be fully self supporting on just things that would

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Speaker 6: be thrown away alone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we just have to meet the right people in

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Speaker 4: order to do that. But we're getting there.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And I do want to say the kitchen is

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Speaker 6: a small slash regular sized kitchen, so you don't have

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Speaker 6: to have some big, crazy warehouse type kitchen to.

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Speaker 4: Make this happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And then you're feeding people right like you're doing

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Speaker 3: it like in the afternoon and evening. Have you found

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Speaker 3: there were things that you said you like soup? But

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Speaker 3: I know, like we fed a lot of people at

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Speaker 3: the border last winter, right, and we found out that

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Speaker 3: certain things work, certain things didn't work, and we always

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Speaker 3: tried to keep it vegan because of people's religious needs preferences. Right,

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Speaker 3: Is there anything like that that you found the works

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Speaker 3: or doesn't work.

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Speaker 6: We have done a lot of chili with our squad,

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Speaker 6: and I know that Luca has done a lot of curry.

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Speaker 6: So there are certain things and they can both be

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Speaker 6: easily made vegan. Yeah, initially a lot of people when

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Speaker 6: we would have vegan stuff would ask for me alternatives,

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Speaker 6: to which I understand people, you know, they don't always

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Speaker 6: have access to protein, so we tried out both options

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Speaker 6: when we can nice.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it varies what we have because our group kind

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Speaker 5: of functions with for like autonomous squads, like well semi

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Speaker 5: autonomous that take turns doing the distross so that you're

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Speaker 5: only really responsible for it once a month, which helps

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Speaker 5: reduce burnout.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, How does that work? Explain how you came

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Speaker 3: up with that and how it's organized.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so this was kind of like something we've been

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Speaker 5: talking about for a while. Some of us are like

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Speaker 5: more into the theory than others, but we're just kind

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Speaker 5: of talking about, like, oh, well, like how do we

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Speaker 5: get more people involved? Because I think what happens oftentimes

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Speaker 5: with these mutual aid groups is there's like a lot

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Speaker 5: of people sitting in a group chat and there's like

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Speaker 5: a small core of people who do end up doing

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Speaker 5: the majority of the labor, and that often results in

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Speaker 5: burnout for those people and building a resentment between like

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Speaker 5: the people who are doing a lot and the other people.

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Speaker 5: Because I think also like sometimes people feel left out

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Speaker 5: and they don't feel like they can get involved, and

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Speaker 5: then they feel like the people who are doing the

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Speaker 5: core of the labor are like in charge and they

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Speaker 5: have to defer to them, which creates a lot of problems,

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Speaker 5: which I'm not saying like we don't have any of

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Speaker 5: those problems, like we're still trying to work out the kinks.

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Speaker 5: But the squads sort of like dynamic makes it so

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Speaker 5: that groups of about like five to ten. Because of distro,

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Speaker 5: you need about like six people to make it happen,

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Speaker 5: so about five to ten people take turns, so you

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Speaker 5: just rotate, so you have you know when your day is.

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Speaker 5: It's once a month that you are responsible for the

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Speaker 5: distro and you are responsible for choosing the food that

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Speaker 5: you're cooking, making sure it gets cooked, organizing with your

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Speaker 5: other comrades, getting the donations, all of that stuff. But

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Speaker 5: you can always ask the larger group for help or

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Speaker 5: extra hands if you need it. But it sort of

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Speaker 5: shares that like responsibility, because I think the most stressful

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Speaker 5: part oftentimes is like, oh, the distro happening tonight is

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Speaker 5: on me and I and if I don't do it,

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Speaker 5: it's not going to happen. Yeah, and so it sort

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Speaker 5: of spreads like that sort of labor. But we have

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Speaker 5: members who like show up to every single distro because

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Speaker 5: they want to, and that's totally fine, even if they're

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Speaker 5: in like whatever designated squad they're in, right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, for some people who show up like once every

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Speaker 6: few months because they have other stuff going on, you know.

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Speaker 4: So it's very open and you.

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Speaker 6: Don't have to be in a squad and you could

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Speaker 6: just to join whenever you have the time, with whoever's

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Speaker 6: week it is. So it's pretty yeah, I would, but

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Speaker 6: it does give a good sense of structure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that helps a lot. I remember one day last year,

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Speaker 3: last winter, and I was out building shelters with an

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Speaker 3: Uzbek guy and a few Kurdish guys and we built

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Speaker 3: these shelters and we built three of them, And afterwards,

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Speaker 3: I was sitting down with some of my friends who

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Speaker 3: are also there as volunteers, and they're all anarchists too.

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Speaker 3: We each asked each other what we did, and then

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Speaker 3: one of them said, so what do we all learn?

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Speaker 3: What did you learn when you did that today?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: And I think that's a really valuable question that we

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Speaker 3: should be asking ourselves in our organizing spaces. So like

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Speaker 3: from your first distrow to now, I want to ask

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Speaker 3: what did you learn?

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Speaker 6: I would say, We've really learned how to trust each other.

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Speaker 6: We're working on, you know, how to get consensus models,

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Speaker 6: how to split the labor between different people, how to

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Speaker 6: work with different people, and also yeah, like I said

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Speaker 6: in the beginning, how to really how to trust each other,

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Speaker 6: which you know, we all want to see the revolution

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Speaker 6: happen at some point, and so I feel like one

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Speaker 6: of the most important and valuable things we can be

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Speaker 6: doing is building relationships and communities with each other where

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Speaker 6: we can actually rely on each other. And so having

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Speaker 6: a mutual task really helps with that.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think for me, like we've like tried

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Speaker 5: to do stuff in the past like this, and I

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Speaker 5: think the issue we've always run into was that, like

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Speaker 5: sometimes there's like a tendency to want too much structure

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Speaker 5: right away and be like, oh, if we don't have

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Speaker 5: everything planned down, we don't know how everything's going to work,

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Speaker 5: then we can't do it, and we need to figure

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Speaker 5: everything out beforehand. And we learned a lot like doing it,

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Speaker 5: and even like we didn't have everything figured out, like

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Speaker 5: we're still working on like our consensus structure. We're still

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Speaker 5: working on like how we're going to make like big

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Speaker 5: decisions as a group, and like when the squads can

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Speaker 5: make their own decisions and when the group can make

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Speaker 5: their own decisions, and like we don't have everything figured out,

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Speaker 5: Like it's very like loose, but we didn't need that,

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Speaker 5: and we've been able to do a distro for like

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Speaker 5: months and we don't have everything figured out. We have something,

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Speaker 5: we had enough to get us started, and we're like

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Speaker 5: working on like slowly adding things as we need to

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Speaker 5: without like overburdening ourselves because I think sometimes like lots

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Speaker 5: of layers and lots of complexities can really make it

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Speaker 5: difficult to organize and adapt to what's happening on the ground.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, I think, yeah, we can overcomplicate it and like

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Speaker 3: be too anxious. Talking of anxious, I am anxious. So

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Speaker 3: we have yet to pivot to advertisements. So let's do

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Speaker 3: that and then we'll come back and we're back. Okay.

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Speaker 3: So you spoke about like a lot about the logistics

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Speaker 3: of cooking, which is great, but I know from experience

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Speaker 3: of feeding hungry people can be a challenge, right, And

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Speaker 3: it's no one's fault, especially when people are hungry, like

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Speaker 3: we're not at ourselves. It's a whole advertising campaign built

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Speaker 3: around that. So how do you organize your distroyage that

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Speaker 3: should everybody feels that they're being taken care of. Everybody

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Speaker 3: feels safe and knows that they're going to get enough

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Speaker 3: to eat.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Well, that also goes back to something more we've learned

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Speaker 6: is we try to have enough people at the distro

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Speaker 6: so we can have different people doing different things, and

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Speaker 6: sometimes that means one person is just walking around talking

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Speaker 6: to people, de escalating a situation if needs be.

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Speaker 4: And then we also figured out that at the end

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Speaker 4: when we run out of food in order, but people

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Speaker 4: who have.

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Speaker 6: Been waiting in line don't get mad, which is understandable.

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Speaker 6: You know, they've been waiting in line and there's no

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Speaker 6: more food than they're hungry. Yeah, of course, we try

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Speaker 6: to have like different snacks and like muffins or crinola

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Speaker 6: bards and water just to hand out at the end

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Speaker 6: for those people who still need something. And so sometimes

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Speaker 6: we have music and we all just try to bring

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Speaker 6: a good energy and so far nothing that we haven't

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Speaker 6: been able to handle happens.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 3: We found that music was really helpful when we were

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Speaker 3: distributing food when really big groups at the border like

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Speaker 3: play some music or have a friend who plays music,

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Speaker 3: play some music, and then we'd always ask folks from

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Speaker 3: the group who we were feeding to volunteer to help

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Speaker 3: us in that it helped us so become language barriers

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Speaker 3: and stuff.

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Speaker 6: That's happened a couple of times as well where people

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Speaker 6: have just stepped up and wanted to help, which has

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Speaker 6: been great.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's nice and it gives us all. Like part

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Speaker 3: of what we're doing with Mutual Aid isn't just meeting

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Speaker 3: material needs. It's also like the difference between solidarity and charity, right,

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Speaker 3: Like we're there too because we care about you as people,

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Speaker 3: not just as like hunger mouths that we can take

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Speaker 3: off a spreadsheet and working together is an integral part

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Speaker 3: of that and it's what distinguishes us from charity model.

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Speaker 6: And thankfully most of the time we have enough people

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Speaker 6: if somebody needs to step aside and have a one

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Speaker 6: on one conversation with somebody because that's what they need

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Speaker 6: in that moment, and we can do that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, having floaters is really important, Like we always have

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Speaker 5: like two people at least two people serving food, and

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Speaker 5: then we have like a snack table, water table usually,

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Speaker 5: and then we have a section for harm reduction that

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Speaker 5: usually gets served on like another table, and then we

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Speaker 5: have like a section for clothes depending on what we have,

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Speaker 5: and people sort of like go down the assembly line

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Speaker 5: kind of like going down grabbing the different things, and

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Speaker 5: we give people like plastic bags that we get from

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Speaker 5: grocery stores so they can get their things. But we

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Speaker 5: also have like floaters usually so that like if someone's

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Speaker 5: like having like a medical issue or someone's like upset

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Speaker 5: or whatever is going on, someone can like step aside

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Speaker 5: and spend some time with them. Like the other day,

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Speaker 5: we had a woman who was not feeling well because

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Speaker 5: of the heat, and she had been out and she

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Speaker 5: needed to sit down. So we like grabbed one of

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Speaker 5: our chairs and we sat her down and got her

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Speaker 5: some water and just like talk to her. And we

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Speaker 5: had a couple of people who could step aside and

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Speaker 5: do that, and then everyone else just could keep like

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Speaker 5: feeding people without it kind of stopping things. But she

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Speaker 5: still got what she needed.

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Speaker 6: And during that heat waves at one of the distros,

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Speaker 6: I remember you ran across and thought somebody gatoring because

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Speaker 6: they really were needed electrolytes. So we're lucky that we

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Speaker 6: have enough people that we get to be able.

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Speaker 3: To do stuff like that when we need to, right,

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Speaker 3: And I imagine that regularity is really important, Like people

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Speaker 3: know that you will be there and that they can

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Speaker 3: come and you will feed them. Like that builds trust,

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Speaker 3: right Like, and everyone I think benefits from middle structure

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Speaker 3: and being unhealthed. It could be really fucking hard to

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Speaker 3: find structure.

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Speaker 6: Yes, exactly, And it's very hard to get like home

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Speaker 6: cooked food.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is something I've encountered living in my cart,

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Speaker 3: Like it's hard to get healthy food. The food you

361
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 3: buy is shit. It's more expensive and it's less good

362
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Speaker 3: for you. And like these things compound over time to

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Speaker 3: have health and psychological consequences.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, everything we cook we eat as well.

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Speaker 6: And you know, if we're cooking or we're helping out

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Speaker 6: with sister, of course it's.

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Speaker 4: Not the mutual and mutual aid, we can also eat it.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's definitely something else we learned at the border

370
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Speaker 3: was that, like, especially if we're cooking something that's maybe

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Speaker 3: not a cultural cuisine, because we're meeting people from all

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Speaker 3: over the world a lot of times it's like like

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Speaker 3: you were saying, chili and carriage. It's like hot wet food, right,

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00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,679
Speaker 3: like you know, the big semi liquid pan of chili

375
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 3: or whatever that we would cook and spaghetti and like

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00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,880
Speaker 3: folks being like what's that, We're like, oh, do I'm

377
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Speaker 3: going to eat some? Do you want some?

378
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

379
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Speaker 3: And like, I honestly had some of the happiest moments

380
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,720
Speaker 3: of last year. Just like I remember one day, I've

381
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 3: been building yurts all day with that I was that

382
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 3: guy and then we sat down and had our beans

383
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 3: and just like talked about our lives and it was

384
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Speaker 3: really sweet.

385
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Speaker 8: Yeah.

386
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Speaker 3: I think that that is a moment of solidarity that

387
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 3: you don't get when you're you know, I've seen NGOs

388
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 3: in the US military tossing MRIs or refugees, and I

389
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 3: ain't the same thing.

390
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:07,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

391
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, Now there shouldn't be like a line between like

392
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 5: you and the people that you're providing mutual aid to.

393
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 5: I mean, like it should you should never give someone

394
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 5: food that you're not willing to eat yourself. And like

395
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 5: if someone's hungry while we're cooking, like they can totally

396
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 5: eat the food that we're making too. It's not like

397
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 5: cordoned off. Yeah, like, of course, we like you know,

398
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,439
Speaker 5: we wear our ppe and we like you know, aren't

399
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 5: getting our hands or whatever. But yeah, I mean because

400
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 5: a lot of the people who are like, who do

401
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 5: provide mutual aid and work in mutual aid groups like,

402
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,439
Speaker 5: are also people who may face houselessness or have trouble

403
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 5: paying for groceries or something.

404
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

405
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's no separation you know, between us and them

406
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 6: at the end of the day.

407
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's super important. So I want to

408
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 3: talk about the camping Maybe let's take another rab break.

409
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 3: We'll talk about the camping ban when we come back.

410
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:14,560
Speaker 9: We are back.

411
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 3: We are now discussing the topic which I love to

412
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 3: talk about, which is evil things that Todd Gloria has done.

413
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 3: And today it could be the whole podcast every day

414
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 3: of the week for years. But we're going to talk

415
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 3: about this camping ban. For folks who didn't listen to

416
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 3: our camping ban episode, can you give me like a

417
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,479
Speaker 3: sixty second synopsis on the camping ban and then we

418
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 3: can dive into what it's done.

419
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

420
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Speaker 6: So, basically, earlier this year, the Supreme Court overturned of

421
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 6: basically an ordinance that you don't have the ability to

422
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 6: cite or arrest somebody if there's not shelter available, but

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Speaker 6: they overturn that so now they can. And Gavin Newsom

424
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 6: issue the Sleeping Order that the agencies have to clear

425
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Speaker 6: encampment and ordered that cities and counties do the same.

426
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 6: So now there's fourteen plus the cities in California that

427
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 6: do have a camping band in place. So that's criminalizing

428
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,119
Speaker 6: living outside.

429
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 3: The existence of unhouse people is now a crime. Yeah,

430
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 3: so what have you seen post enforcement?

431
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 4: Yeah?

432
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 6: So I also like work in the field of harm reduction,

433
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 6: So you know, I do this in my free time

434
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 6: because I want to do it, but I also do

435
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 6: it for work, which there's definitely sometimes I feel weird about,

436
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 6: like working for an organization and wish that I didn't

437
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 6: have to.

438
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 4: But it's just one of those things.

439
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 6: And I've seen it's really hard and really sad because

440
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 6: when people are in encampment a lot of times they

441
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 6: build a sort of community and family and they learn

442
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 6: how to take care of each other, and constantly being

443
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 6: split up is destroying.

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Speaker 4: These communities, and then they just have to.

445
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 6: Travel further and further away so that they're disconnected from

446
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 6: not only their community, but also real versus that they

447
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 6: do have. And so it's just really hard, and sometimes

448
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 6: we lose connections with people.

449
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 4: We don't know where they went, you know, where they.

450
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 6: End up in jail or it's been really horrible, And

451
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 6: we're just talking about how it just seems like people

452
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 6: don't really care and it's crazy that this is happening

453
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 6: in our communities and people.

454
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 4: Aren't talking about it and aren't outraged by it.

455
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

456
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, these bands also have like a really nasty ripple

457
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 5: effect because when these people got pushed out of San Diego,

458
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 5: then they go to other cities that don't have an

459
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 5: encampment band like Cheu La Vista National City and now

460
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 5: Cheula Vista National City and other cities are advancing their

461
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 5: own camping bands and citing an influx from San Diego. Right,

462
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 5: So it's like creating this really awful, like just progressive

463
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 5: expansion of these bands.

464
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 4: Yeah.

465
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 6: And one one more thing I'll add is that some

466
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 6: people are like, oh, well, that's just going to you know,

467
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 6: be good, because these people are going to get into shelters,

468
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 6: find alternative ways of getting help. But that's not what's

469
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 6: happening because we have not had any more shelters. It's

470
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 6: really hard to get into a shelter actually, And you know,

471
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 6: since musselm has been governor, we've had apparently so many

472
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 6: billions of dollars twenty four billions spent tackling homelessness, and

473
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 6: it's like, what is there to show for it? Right,

474
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 6: people still don't have a place to go, and even

475
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 6: if they do get into a shelter, a lot of

476
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 6: times there's so many rules and regulations that if somebody

477
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 6: has a high level of mental health needs and they're

478
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 6: not going to be able to stay there and there's

479
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 6: just no solutions.

480
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's giving the appearance of doing something to make

481
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: homeowners right, people who they think matter happy. It's really bleak. Yeah,

482
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 3: let's discuss a little bit then, like this camping band,

483
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 3: as you say, it's supposed people to other cities, Like

484
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 3: what do you think it does to the unhoused community?

485
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: Like you talked a little bit about breaking up encampments,

486
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 3: Like where do people end up? Right when their campments

487
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 3: get broken up in the community, and like where do

488
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: they end up? And how can people because this is

489
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 3: this is nationwide right, Yeah, Gavin Newson is being a

490
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 3: particularly odious turd about it, but like other people are

491
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 3: the states doing it too. It's something of Unie San

492
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 3: Diego for instance, people ending up in a riverbed. So

493
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 3: can you talk about like the risks there and then like, yeah,

494
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 3: the needs that it creates and how we can meet them.

495
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 4: So you're right, some of them are ending up in

496
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 4: river beds.

497
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 6: There's also like what they refer to as the Island

498
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 6: kind of close to Old Town where a lot of

499
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 6: people have been going. But you know, you have to

500
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 6: get a rash to go there, and it's not easy

501
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 6: to get there. They don't have a lot of resources there.

502
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 4: There's a lot of.

503
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 6: Crime that happens, and it's not the best scenario. And

504
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 6: other than that, for making these safe sleeping sites which

505
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 6: are not actually safe and they're kind of like concentration

506
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 6: camps and they're from people I've talked to actually live

507
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 6: in them. They're not good places to.

508
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 4: Be at, yeah at all.

509
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 6: And it's just kind of like pushing the problem out

510
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 6: of you without actually doing anything or providing anything meaningful

511
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 6: to people.

512
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is the goal. I think it is to

513
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 3: make property invisible.

514
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

515
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 5: And the other thing that happens is like I live

516
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 5: in an area where there are a lot of encampments,

517
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 5: and there probably would be permanent encampments if it weren't

518
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 5: for the band, And personally I would prefer that, because

519
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 5: like what happens is these people get like moved like there,

520
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 5: their encamment will like crop up, It'll be there for

521
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 5: like maybe a week, and then like it'll disappear, and

522
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 5: like I'll wake up one morning and they're gone, and

523
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 5: all of their stuff often gets thrown away. They lose

524
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 5: access to their things if they're not there to take it.

525
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 5: They basically can take only what they can carry on

526
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 5: their backs. If they're lucky. If they happen to be

527
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 5: there when their stuff is being thrown away, they're they're sighted,

528
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 5: they could be arrested. And then usually I see sometimes

529
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 5: the same people come back, but they just had to

530
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 5: like go find somewhere else. So they're basically being forced

531
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 5: to be like migratory rather than like staying in one place,

532
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 5: which means that it often It also makes like the

533
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 5: people who live in neighborhoods, like because I can't form

534
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 5: relationships with these people as much as I could before,

535
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 5: Like I can't know my neighbors as much because my

536
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 5: neighbors are constantly getting moved around, So like I'll like

537
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 5: former relationship with someone and I'll be like, you know,

538
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 5: like I'll be like their beer guy, and I'll like,

539
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 5: you know, like there's people that I'll know that I'll like,

540
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 5: go buy a beer for, go get water for if

541
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 5: I see them and I know their name and that.

542
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 5: But then when with the encamp ban, they might just

543
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 5: disappear one day and I don't know if they got arrested,

544
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 5: I don't know if they've just been displaced, and that's

545
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 5: like not great for me, not great for them, not

546
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 5: great for literally anyone around, because it's like people are

547
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 5: safer if they're able to have like a stable place

548
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: to be, Like, everyone is safer.

549
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, if ours stated goal is getting people off the streets,

550
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 3: like chasing them around the streets, isn't doing that making

551
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 3: it harder for people to find stability?

552
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, And you know, I've talked to people also about

553
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 6: the reason sometimes they don't like the term homeless is

554
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 6: because they're like, yes, we may not have a house,

555
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 6: but we make our homes, we make a community, we

556
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 6: make a home, and losing that sense of security, any

557
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 6: little bit of security they have constantly having to move,

558
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 6: not ever feeling comfortable or safe.

559
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 3: You know, that's traumatizing, Taking a bad situation and making

560
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 3: it worse, just what the state likes to do. I

561
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: wonder like, before we finish up, a lot of people,

562
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: like I said, want to start a mutual aid thing.

563
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 3: Do you have any advice for them? Things that you

564
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 3: would do if you were starting over, things that you

565
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: feel like you did well. If you wanted to start

566
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 3: bread bluck, now, how would you go about it?

567
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 6: Start a group chat, maybe make an Instagram where you

568
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 6: can post about it and find people who are also

569
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 6: in dressed than that.

570
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 4: Go to a local event? What else?

571
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 5: Luka having like a place where people can like congregate

572
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 5: with each other, like having a regular like community event

573
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 5: to meet people and get to know each other and

574
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 5: trust each other. I really wish that we had started

575
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 5: like sooner, because I think we had the capacity to

576
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 5: start sooner, like way beforehand, and I think it was

577
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 5: like the incamment ban and like sayalah, being like we

578
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 5: need to do this like happening it like it just

579
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 5: takes like one person being excited enough about something and

580
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 5: then like their comrades being like yeah, no, you're right,

581
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 5: like we do need to do something, and I think

582
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 5: people are really afraid to be that person to like

583
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 5: push for something, to try to like wake other people

584
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 5: up or like convince other people that you have to

585
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 5: capacity to because I think the state can be really

586
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 5: disempowering and they make you think that you need like

587
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 5: a budget and you need like all of these things

588
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 5: to like be able to provide people like aid or

589
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 5: or like like mutually to provide people anything.

590
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: And like we did it with like literally.

591
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 5: Just like a couple of our members just like gave

592
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 5: some money that we had and that we had, like

593
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 5: you know, like we had like a couple hundred dollars

594
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 5: that we got from people, and then that was enough

595
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 5: to start and like you could literally start with like

596
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 5: fifty bucks and figure it out.

597
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, we did not come from a place.

598
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 6: Of any of us having a lot of money, so

599
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 6: we've basically just had to figure it out.

600
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 4: And anybody can figure it out, you know.

601
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 6: I feel like our culture is so individualized, but we

602
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 6: do have the capacity to come together and yeah, just

603
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 6: take somebody being like all right, let's do this, and

604
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 6: you'll you'll meet enough people who are also interested in that.

605
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 6: Because people do want community at the end of the day,

606
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 6: and people do want to help people.

607
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Is there anything else you guys want to mention

608
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: before we go?

609
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, The only last thing I wanted to mention is

610
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 6: that we do have a lot of future goals of

611
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 6: expanding and doing more street medicine as well.

612
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 4: And expanding to different areas. We're also having.

613
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 6: Mobile teams where we can go out and leave people

614
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 6: who aren't in one location or who maybe have certain

615
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 6: divisibilities and can't walk and get there. So we have

616
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 6: a lot of ideas for that, and that just takes

617
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 6: meeting more people who are into this and getting more

618
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 6: funds and yeah.

619
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, so hopefully that's something we can do.

620
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 5: And I just wanted to briefly mention one of our

621
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 5: members did some really great research on the way the

622
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 5: Hillcrest Business Association is using the Encampment band to further

623
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 5: harm and using they're actually using like private security to

624
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 5: push people out so people can enjoy their night life

625
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 5: without having to deal with an objectionable minority that wants

626
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 5: to live however it pleases for fuck's sake, the quote

627
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 5: from mister Ben Nicholas of the Hillcrist Business Association, So

628
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 5: they have a initiative called Hillcrest Clean and Safe Program

629
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 5: where they displace people from Hillcrest for the benefit of

630
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 5: the businesses. And they have like if you go on

631
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 5: a Voice of San Diego you can hear some like

632
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 5: just the way they talk about these people is really

633
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 5: insane and really dehumanizing, and it kind of notes how businesses,

634
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 5: how like capitalism in the state, are working together hand

635
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 5: in hand to displace our community members. So the business

636
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 5: associations and the businesses themselves are being empowered by these

637
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 5: encampment bands to further repetuate violence on peoples.

638
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 6: Yet, yeah, and on that topic, the way that people

639
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 6: actually are a dressing it here is making it so

640
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 6: much worse. Like San Diego has a hot team which

641
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 6: is part of the police department.

642
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 4: It's called the Homeless Outreach Team.

643
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 6: And they're supposedly supposed to help get people into shelters

644
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 6: and stuff like that. But anybody I've talked to who

645
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 6: have tried to reach out for them and ask, you know, okay,

646
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 6: if you're going to move me, like I need to.

647
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 4: Get into a shelter.

648
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 6: One of them who I was talking to about this

649
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 6: was in the seventies and very medically vulnerable, and instead

650
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 6: of helping them find somewhere to go, they just put

651
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 6: his car which she was sleeping in because it was unregistered,

652
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 6: and so they're not actually helping at all.

653
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 3: It's just a cop.

654
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 6: And that's why, you know, just us regular people have

655
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 6: to do something because the state's not going to.

656
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great thing. That's the

657
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 3: fucking doc about the Hill Grest Business Association for people

658
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: who aren'tailiar with San Diego. San Diego is like LGBTQA.

659
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: A neighborhood is called Hillcrest. One in three of our

660
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 3: trandth youth are run housed and like, I guess they

661
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: don't matter to the Hill Grest Business Association. Not surprising,

662
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: but just fucked up. Where can people if they want

663
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: to support you, they want to follow you, if they

664
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: want to come out and do food distro? Where can

665
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: they find you on the internet?

666
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, they can find us on Instagram. Our Instagram is

667
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 5: bread Block Underscore Distro. If you want to provide like

668
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 5: direct funds, bread Underscore Block is our Venmo.

669
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: Lots with the feed not o k b l oc Oh.

670
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, b l oc like block.

671
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 4: We are.

672
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I also wanted to mention a couple of

673
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 5: comrades of ours are facing houselessness themselves, and there's a

674
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 5: mutual aid post on our Instagram and you can also

675
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 5: find them at ruster dot music that's our U s

676
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 5: T e R Music or their venmo is also in

677
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 5: a post on our page. They could really use some

678
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 5: help because they are really big individuals who like show

679
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 5: up all the time and help us cook and our

680
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 5: a big part of our group, and you know also

681
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 5: could use some mutual.

682
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: Aid, yeah, people to help them. Thank you so much

683
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: for your time, guys. Thank you for doing all that

684
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: important work and thank you for sharing it with us.

685
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: If people have questions, they can reach out to you, right, yes.

686
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 4: Yes, of course, thank you so much for having them.

687
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. It's much appreciated.

688
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 8: Welcome to katap and here I'm Andrew Siege, a FUTUREE

689
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 8: channel Andrewism.

690
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 7: I'm joined by Garrison Davis.

691
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 8: Hello there, once again, hello, and today I regret to

692
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 8: inform you that you must come to Brazil.

693
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 10: I've heard mixed things about about Brazil currently, but I'm

694
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 10: not I'm not I'm not against the idea. I have

695
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 10: considered it before.

696
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 8: Yes, well we're not going to the Brazil of present

697
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 8: times will actually be time traveling, continuing the somewhat informal

698
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 8: series I've been doing on Latin American anarchism. We'll be

699
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 8: dipping our tours into the sand and the sea, the

700
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 8: farmlands and jungles, the mountains and deserts, the cities and

701
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 8: villages that make up the land, and crowned of the

702
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 8: potential liberty of the people forcil, particularly the struggles for

703
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 8: anarchism that they would have had in the late nineteenth

704
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 8: and early twentieth century. All this is of course down

705
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 8: to the scholarship of people like Edgar Rodriguez, Jesse Cone,

706
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 8: Philippe Correa, Rafael Vianna, the Silva Quan, William Dos Santos,

707
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 8: Edline Toledo and Luigi Biondi and without further ado, let's

708
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 8: get into it. So, the Portuguese landed in the region

709
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,959
Speaker 8: they will become known as Brazil in fifteen hundred. Prior

710
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 8: to their colonization, the land was home to ethnic groups

711
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 8: linked to four main language groups, the Irawak, the Tupi, Guarani,

712
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 8: the Je and the Kalinago. Some of the specific ethnic

713
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 8: groups included the Portiguara, Trema, Membe, Tavajara, Kayete, and so on.

714
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 8: After Pedro Alvarez Cabra landed, the following centuries were marked

715
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 8: by colonization and slavement. His lands were dispossessed and cleared.

716
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 8: Plantations were established, roads were laid, bridges were built, and

717
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 8: so on, all by the auctioned and purchased efforts of

718
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 8: whipped and exploited human muscle the president. Slaved Africans in

719
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 8: the society would sometimes flee into the jungles and form

720
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 8: qui lumbos or fugitive slave settlements, including the famous Palmarrius,

721
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 8: which survived for almost a century with the population of

722
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 8: between eleven and twenty thousand. After Brazil gains independence from

723
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 8: Portugal in eighteen twenty two, retaining its own monarchy, it

724
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 8: experienced numerous maroonages, reforms, and popular revolts, including the Stembrada

725
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 8: and Novembrada revolts, the uru Preto Uprising, the Sabinada and

726
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 8: Bailadda revolts, the Carmanachem Revolt, the Guerra dos Ferapos revolt,

727
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 8: Liberal Revolution, the Prior Revolution, the extremely late ablition of

728
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 8: slavery in eighteen eighty eight, and the proclamation of the

729
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 8: First Brazilian Republic in eighteen eighty nine. It was in

730
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 8: this multuous sociopolitical landscape that anarchism would take root. As

731
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 8: in much of Latin America, anarchism would be brought by

732
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 8: immigrants through port cities like Rodighanio and Santos. Revolutionary ideas

733
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 8: would also come to Brazil by way of Brazilians themselves.

734
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 8: Some went to France and Portugal for their studies and

735
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 8: discovered anarchism there. Others would find the words of Kropotkin

736
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 8: and Malchester in the bookstores of their native cities. Doctor

737
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 8: Fabio Luis, a Bahian hygienist and doctor, wrote two novels

738
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 8: which sort to grapple with the social question of exploitation

739
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 8: of man by man in Brazil. Doctor Luis also spent

740
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 8: his time working alongside unions and helping to fight the

741
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 8: yellow fever and smallpox epidemics of plagued his nature. Another novelist,

742
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 8: Manuel de Mendounca, also published in this time, contributing to

743
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 8: a slow growing liberteria and literary universe. These anarchist intellectuals,

744
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 8: alongside others, would go on to launch a popular university.

745
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 8: Other contributors propagation of Anarchism in Brazilian soil included Alicio

746
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 8: de Carvallo, j Martins, Fontes, Pedro Docuto, Russia, Pombo Duel,

747
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 8: Gonsalves de Silva, Maximino Maziel, Benjamin Morta, Francisco Vioti, et cetera.

748
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 8: Anarchism in Brazil was actually quite diverse as well, as

749
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 8: it found immigrants from Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ukraine, Russia, Germany,

750
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 8: Canada and England, alongside former black slaves and mestizos. It

751
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 8: found children, and it found women. Limo Berreto Domingos Pasos,

752
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 8: who was kind of known as the Brazilian Burcunan, Nino Vascos,

753
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 8: Edgard Luinroth, Jose Oica, Mariela, La Serda de Mura, and

754
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 8: Maria and Helio Suarez all made key contributions to development

755
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 8: of anarchism in Brazil. Dozens of newspapers like Cli Ciavi, Pianchi, Lavigne,

756
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 8: Livitario and O Deespertar would also be published. Hundreds of

757
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 8: lectures would be hosted alongside language classes and artistic activities

758
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 8: at anarchist cultural centers or at ten ms and schools

759
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 8: like the Illis Euricluse School and the modern schools in

760
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 8: South Paolo, which also provided literacy courses, a vocational trainer.

761
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 8: Revolutionary plays we put on in theaters by groups such

762
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 8: as Group, the Instructure and Group with dramatical helmina, blending

763
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 8: entertainment with the syndicalist propaganda and front raising efforts for

764
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 8: the labor movement. Worker's festivals feature in poetry, song, dance,

765
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 8: and sport, raise money for anarchistyndicalist organizations and reinforced a

766
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 8: sense of solidarity. The anarchist workers, being so numerously immigrant,

767
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 8: attended to create a cosmopolitan counterculture centered on working class

768
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 8: values and priorities. So all these projects and institutions, with

769
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 8: the results of their efforts, Over a thousand foreign agitators

770
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 8: would be deported from Brazil as a result of their

771
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 8: radical efforts, and a few would even be killed. The

772
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 8: food's anarchists be murdered by the state in Brazil was

773
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 8: the Italian Polinice Mattei killed in South Paulo on the

774
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 8: twentieth September eighteen ninety eight. Earlier that year, the first

775
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 8: gathering of socialist leading workers in Brazil would take place

776
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 8: in Rio Grande Rossoul, attended by delegates from various associations,

777
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 8: anarchist groups, and a newspaper. As usual, the Italian immigrants

778
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 8: were heavily represented. The anarchist immigrants even managed to establish

779
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 8: a settlement known as the Guera Rima anarchist colony organized

780
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 8: by Italian anarchists ar Tour Campanili. Perhaps the most notable

781
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 8: contribution to anarchism by the Italians in Brazil was the

782
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 8: Cecilia Colony, which deserves special attentions mentioning of course that

783
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 8: this project, as with everything taken place in Brazil in

784
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 8: this time, took place on colonial land, which seemingly went

785
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 8: unacknowledged by the anarchists themselves, but it was regrettably common

786
00:40:49,520 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 8: in the colonial conditions of Brazil. In the southern state

787
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,479
Speaker 8: of Parana, in the ural municipality of Palmira, a group

788
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 8: of Italian anarchists led by Giovanni Rossi and Gigi Damiani

789
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 8: founded the Senior Colony in eighteen ninety. The land was

790
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 8: originally granted to them by Emperor Pedero the Second, but

791
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 8: after the proclamation of the First Brazilian Republic, the new

792
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 8: government did not acknowledge that land grant, and so the

793
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 8: anarchists had to purchase it. Instead, the anarchists sought to

794
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 8: experiment and creating a society based on collective ownership and

795
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 8: free love. The built of communal shared for shelter and

796
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 8: began the process constructing individual homes. The population of the

797
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 8: colony quickly grew to almost three hundred people, including the

798
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 8: Rossi himself, but by the end of eighteen ninety one,

799
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 8: the colony was facing its first big challenge. They'd outgrown

800
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 8: the infrastructure, with only twenty wooden houses in one community shed,

801
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 8: the settlement simply couldn't sustain the influx of people, and

802
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 8: to make matters worse, many of the settlers were industrial

803
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 8: workers with little or no agricultural experience. Lack of farm

804
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 8: and knowledge made it difficult for them to produce enough

805
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 8: food to feed themselves. They tried to organize tasks based

806
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 8: on people's existing skills. Artisans stuck to their trades, but

807
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 8: the farmers struggled, especially with the differences between Italian and

808
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 8: Brazilian soil. While they managed to plant crops like maize,

809
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 8: the results weren't immediate. The money they brought they could

810
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 8: buy groceries, tools, and seeds, but it wasn't enough to

811
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 8: sustain them. Until their crops started yielding results, so many

812
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 8: settlers had to seek work elsewhere, with some even taken

813
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 8: government jobs. The colony wasn't just about farm in though.

814
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 8: Over the years they built roads, sheds, bonds, a mill

815
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 8: and even a fish tank. They planted a huge cornfield,

816
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 8: dug wells and set up a nursery for seedlands. They

817
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 8: even tried out free love with rossiumself participates in in

818
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 8: a polyamorous relationship.

819
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 7: Many such cases, many such cases.

820
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 8: But despite all these efforts, the cracks were starting to show.

821
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 8: In eighteen ninety two, seven families packed up and return

822
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 8: to Italy. By the end of the year, the colonu's

823
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 8: population had dwindled just twenty people. Oh dang, yeah, it's

824
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 8: a very very rapid decline.

825
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

826
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 10: The sustainability of these types of projects is always like

827
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 10: the big thing, and especially when it comes to like

828
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 10: food and farming like that is unfortunately the joke whenever

829
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 10: people talk about these sorts of projects. Now all of

830
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 10: these artists and craftsmens don't want to spend out time

831
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 10: toiling away in the fields.

832
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, it's a challenge that the persisted today.

833
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 10: So far, it seems like there's like a decent mix

834
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 10: of like labor organizing, like social organizing, like with like newspapers,

835
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 10: like theaters, plays like that kind of like more like

836
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 10: cultural engagement stuff with like unions and this little like

837
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 10: anarchist society that they try. They've kind of like like

838
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 10: sped run through a whole bunch of like I don't

839
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 10: want to say like social anarchism, because that is a

840
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 10: term that means something else. But there is a lot

841
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 10: of stuff that's kind of very similar to that, at

842
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 10: least like so far, and I'm not hearing very much

843
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 10: stuff that leads me to believe there's like you know,

844
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 10: a large degree of conflextuality towards the actual Brazilian Republic.

845
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 10: But was that also like an aspect during this time period.

846
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 8: They would end up engaging in a lot more heavy

847
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 8: like you're talking about, like direct engagement with the state.

848
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 7: Yeah.

849
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 8: I think in this early period, when they were still

850
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 8: building up and spread in the wood, it was sort

851
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 8: of a honeymoon period for the movement in a sense.

852
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 8: A lot of the dramatic confrontations are very soon pendent. Okay, Okay,

853
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 8: So the cracks were certain to show families had packed

854
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 8: up and returned to Italy, the colony had gone down

855
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 8: to just twenty people, and because a lot of the

856
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 8: colonies made up of intellectuals, doctors, engineers, artisans, many of

857
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 8: them left for nearby cities, where they founded the Jessepe

858
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 8: Garibali Society, which I couldn't find much information on that

859
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 8: particular society from that particular historical period in my research,

860
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 8: but it seems to have been a mutual aid society.

861
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 8: I'm not one hundred percent sure.

862
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 10: I mean that would like make sense as it's like

863
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 10: within like a bigger city.

864
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, And Garibaldi has a rather interesting history that

865
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 8: I'm only recently learning about. And I didn't even know

866
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 8: he went all the way to like South America and

867
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 8: Sclevantin and stuff. But like I learned very recently that

868
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 8: he had married, I believe, an indigenous or a Mestizo

869
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 8: woman while he was in South America and they had

870
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 8: like this very romantic, dramatic life together, leading battlefield side

871
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 8: by side all that stuff.

872
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

873
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, So I'm not surprised that the Italian anarchists

874
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 8: were perhaps inspired by Garibaldi, even if he himself was

875
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 8: not an anarchist. Sure so, anyway, by eighteen ninety three

876
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 8: new settlers had arrived, thankfully, and the colony was trying

877
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 8: to manufacture shoes and wine barrels so they could make

878
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 8: some sort of an income. They eventually grew to sixty

879
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 8: four residents, and they established two wells and a new

880
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 8: access road. But even with those new developments, the colony

881
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 8: was still struggling. They were dealing with material poverty, the

882
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 8: neighboring Catholic communities were extremely hostile toward them, and they

883
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 8: also had to deal with very poor sanitation conditions. And

884
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 8: then in their fourth year they also had a crop

885
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 8: epidemic that pretty much decimated the colony. And of course,

886
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 8: as high minded as the ideas may have been, there

887
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 8: were the internal struggles. You know, Free love and communal

888
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 8: living may have been central to the colony's philosophy, but

889
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 8: not everyone adapted well to the ideals. In theory, they

890
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 8: embraced the values, but in practice there were some insecurity

891
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 8: and jealousy that of.

892
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 7: Rose out of that also many such cases.

893
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 8: Many such cases. By the end of eighteen ninety three,

894
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 8: it was abundantly clear that the colony couldn't survive. Labor

895
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 8: was in high demand the nearby cities, and despite efforts

896
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 8: to attract new settlers through socialist propaganda in Europe. The

897
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 8: colony just couldn't maintain its population, and eighteen ninety four

898
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 8: Celia Colony officially came to an end. They have in

899
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 8: many players and dramatizations of the story Cecilia Colony. Most

900
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 8: of them, as you would imagine, are in Brazilian Portuguese,

901
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 8: so good luck finding them.

902
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 7: I'll try to find a dub somewhere maybe yeah.

903
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 8: And its Olian Portuguese. But anyway, so, the experiment had

904
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 8: held on for four dramatic years define pressure from the

905
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 8: newly established Brazilian Republican government, heavy taxes and even military inclusions.

906
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 8: Eventually material conditions disease and until the conflicts brought it

907
00:47:50,880 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 8: Tourne and how we're entering into the twentieth century. Nineteen

908
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 8: oh three saw the founding of the first fourmal structure,

909
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 8: inspired by international syndicalism, the Federation of Class Associations. This

910
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 8: organization would take part in the first Workers Congress in

911
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 8: nineteen oh six, which brought together forty three delegates, predominantly

912
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 8: anarchist from across Brazil, in over twelve sessions, discussing twenty

913
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 8: three items of discussion Giovanni Grossi, the guy behind the

914
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 8: Cecilia Colony, was among the attendees. The Congress sought to

915
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 8: advocate for economic resistance societies and laid the foundation for

916
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 8: the Brazilian Workers Confederation or COBB for Sure in nineteen

917
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 8: oh eight, which united over fifty unions, primarily from Rio Deshaneio,

918
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 8: South Baolo and Rio Grande Rossul. Between ninety oh five

919
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 8: nineteen oh eight, the workers movement witnessed a surge in strikes,

920
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 8: notably among shoemakers, reallymen and other industrial sectors. Portoal des

921
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 8: gres saw at the general strike in nineteen oh six.

922
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 8: South Paulo was the scene of insurrectionary strikes in nineteen

923
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 8: oh six and nineteen oh seven as part of the

924
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 8: campaign for the eight hour work day. In Santos. The

925
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 8: strikes for the eight hour day only ended in nineteen

926
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 8: twenty one, meaning they spent well over a decade close

927
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 8: to two decades fighting for the eight hour day. Yeah

928
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 8: The workers movement also held several congresses in this time,

929
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 8: including the first and second South Paulo State Congresses, the

930
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 8: first mass Cares, the First mass Heires State Labor Federation Congress,

931
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 8: and the Parana Labor Congress, which affirmed the movement's commitments

932
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 8: to anarchist cynicalism, and as with other anarchist groups around

933
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 8: the world, they organized the demonstration to commemorate the death

934
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 8: of Francisco Ferrere, the Modern School founder who inspired rational

935
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 8: education efforts across Brazil. They also supported the Russian workers

936
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 8: in both nineteen oh five and nineteen seventeen, supported Mexican

937
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 8: workers and peasants in nineteen ten, and commemorated the Chicago

938
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 8: Martyrs on subsequent mediates. Nineteen thirteen marked the second Brazilian

939
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 8: Labor Congress, much larger than the Foost where there it

940
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 8: it's from one hundred and seventeen bodies across eight states,

941
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 8: debated twenty four items. In nineteen fourteen, anarchists in South

942
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 8: Paulo organize a conference it's like two delegates to represent

943
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 8: Brazil at the London Anarchist Congress, which is eventually and

944
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 8: unfortunately canceled due to the outbreak of World War One.

945
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 10: But this is such an interesting moment in like international

946
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 10: anarchism that at least right now, just like we have

947
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 10: like the Internet, but that sucks, like this style of

948
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 10: like actual like like international like anarchism. It's just something

949
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 10: that is I've I've never really been able to like

950
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 10: experience before.

951
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 8: But Garrison, you forgets in something we have discourse.

952
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 10: Oh I'm sure they also had discourse, but they got

953
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 10: to go to London to do their discourse, which sounds

954
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 10: which sounds much better than doing it from my toilet

955
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 10: on Twitter dot com. Sorry xx dot com, My apologies

956
00:50:58,600 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 10: not that that's.

957
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 8: True, though, I would much rather the discords take place

958
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 8: in puson over you know, the discord suvas and the

959
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 8: Switzer and Breddit threads.

960
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 10: I mean, like especially in that like international aspect, Like

961
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 10: there's there's certainly like like anarchist gatherings and like conferences

962
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 10: and convergences, you know, within within countries.

963
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 7: I've been to many in the United States.

964
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 10: But yeah, this this sort of like like having anarchists

965
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 10: in Brazil go to London to talk with anarchists from

966
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 10: everywhere else in the world, like compare their experiences and

967
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 10: compare notes. Yeah, then talk about like what their actual

968
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 10: like political goals are. It's something that I think is

969
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 10: just stalling, doesn't really exist anymore.

970
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 8: And that's really a vital component for international solidarity because

971
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 8: that's kind of solidarity, that kind of portunity is very

972
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 8: difficult to find just through virtual interaction. There's something meaningful

973
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 8: and shake and a Pusson's hand and embrace in them

974
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 8: and laugh at and crying together in Pusson sharing a meal,

975
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 8: I think really makes a difference.

976
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 10: I mean, yeah, especially when you have like the spread

977
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 10: of anarchism is built on that internationalism, Like you have

978
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 10: anarchists from Portugal and Italy and Spain.

979
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,360
Speaker 8: The immigrant influence exactly is very very profound.

980
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 7: Yeah.

981
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 8: But although there was the outbreak of war one closer

982
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 8: to whom the anarchists were still involving themselves in that

983
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 8: sort of regional discourse. I may have been flying to London,

984
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 8: but they managed to meet with delegates from Argentina, Chile,

985
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 8: and Uruguay at the International Peace Conference and the South

986
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 8: American Anarchist Congress in October nineteen fifteen, all in an

987
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 8: aim to foster both regional and international anarchist cooperation as

988
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 8: the war raged on. In addition to the anti war propaganda,

989
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,240
Speaker 8: Brazil's anarchists continue to rally against unemployment rise and living costs,

990
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 8: scarcity of basic foodstuffs, while resisting the capitalists the clergy.

991
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 8: In the state, which sent young men to the slaughter

992
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 8: on the battlefield. In response to the pressure levied by

993
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 8: the libertarian proletaria, the government gave the go ahead for

994
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 8: direct sale by the producer to the consumer without taxes levied,

995
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 8: easing the hugging crisis in the country. So their struggles worked.

996
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 8: This period and particularly from nineteen twelve to nineteen twenty,

997
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 8: marked significant worker mobilization. The period from nineteen seventeen to

998
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 8: nineteen twenty in particular, was marked by significant strikes, including

999
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 8: the South Paulo General Strike of nineteen seventeen, which saw

1000
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 8: seventy thousand workers participate with sympathy strikes in the Rio Grande,

1001
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 8: Assul and Pirana demanding better working conditions, wages, and the

1002
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 8: eight hour workday. This period also witnessed an increase in

1003
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 8: unionization and the growth of the workers press, which provided

1004
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 8: critical platforms revolutionary ideas. In nineteen nineteen, an uprising exploded

1005
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 8: in Rio de Janeiro, leading to the death of three

1006
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 8: workers and the imprisonment or deportation of nearly one hundred.

1007
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 8: The government deployed police, troops and even naval warships to

1008
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 8: crush the resistance of the workers, and they also attempted

1009
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 8: to exploit racial divisions. They would take Afro Brazili and

1010
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 8: used them as scabs, and then once the strike was over,

1011
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 8: once they broke up this strike, they would fire those

1012
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 8: same black workers to reaffirm the privilege of white labor. Eventually,

1013
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 8: the government would concede and force capitalists to make some

1014
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 8: concessions where wages were concerned, but this came at a cost.

1015
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 8: Alongside the mass imprisonment and deportations, the state's efforts included

1016
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 8: infiltration of the unions, which eventually stayed reformist unions, into

1017
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 8: the leadership position of the working classes, supplanting the more

1018
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 8: revolutionary organizations. Thus, anarchism arguably entered a new era. In

1019
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 8: the nineteen twenties, there were still anarchist led labor congresses,

1020
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 8: including the Third Brazilian Labor Congress and the second and

1021
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 8: third rew Granded Assoul Labor Congresses, the latter of which

1022
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 8: endorsed a declaration of principles from the IWA and established

1023
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 8: an International Anarchists or Diarity Impact. But by the four

1024
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 8: to three or Granded as Soul Labor Congress, attended by

1025
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 8: sixteen workers organizations, two newspapers, six anarchist groups, SULB power

1026
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 8: militants and delegates from Uruguay, Paraguay and Argentina. Anarchist efforts

1027
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 8: in Brazil had to become much more clandestine. Following the deportations,

1028
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 8: the state intervention, the general oppression of the success of

1029
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 8: Brazilian regimes. The anarchist movement had indeed weakened, and I

1030
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 8: took another blow with the establishment to the Brazilian Communist

1031
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 8: Party the PCB, partially inspired by Bolshevism in nineteen twenty two,

1032
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 8: which absorbed many former anarchists, including Edgar Lunov, who authored

1033
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 8: its charter, and Astriguilo Perera, who served as its secretary

1034
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 8: general for nearly a decade before he was expelled. The

1035
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 8: PCB competed for union leadership and worked with the governments

1036
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 8: of Artur Bernandez Washington, Louise and Catulio Vargas. The suppressed

1037
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 8: the libertarian movement and the free trade unions. The Bernardes government,

1038
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 8: by the way, sent to thousands of political prisoners, including anarchists,

1039
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 8: into the remote penal colony of Clevelandia, thousands with the

1040
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 8: harsh conditions killed one hundreds Wow and the Louis San

1041
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,479
Speaker 8: Vargas governments of course we're not any better.

1042
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 7: I was also wondering, like, where are the people like

1043
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 7: deported to?

1044
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 10: Like it sounded like they've been in Brazil for quite

1045
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 10: a while when you were like mentioning there was all

1046
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 10: those all those other people who were deported out of

1047
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 10: the country, Like where where did they go?

1048
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, there was a story I was reading about that

1049
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 8: I didn't maintaince in my notes. Some only half remember

1050
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 8: in it, but one of my sources would have had

1051
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 8: it of the names I listed at the beginning, but

1052
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 8: they were spoken about how there were these I believe

1053
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 8: Portuguese people in Brazil, as in Portuguese from Portugal who

1054
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 8: have been there and there and working there and whatever

1055
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 8: for years and years and years, and because they hadn't naturalized,

1056
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 8: they were like subject to like these heavy attacks. And

1057
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 8: I believe some of them were deported as well. And

1058
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 8: so I'm assuming whatever country of origin they could be

1059
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 8: traced to, they would be deported there, or they're'd be

1060
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 8: deported to a neighbor in South American country. But I

1061
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 8: didn't really find specific details on where they were sent.

1062
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 8: I assume it's mostly their home countries or neighboring countries.

1063
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 10: Between that and like sending thousands of people to a

1064
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 10: penal colony with hundreds dying, like this is a massive

1065
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 10: wave of repression they're dealing with in like the early twenties.

1066
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 8: Here indeed, indeed, and unfortunately, their supposed allies weren't exactly

1067
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 8: a help. In nineteen twenty seven, the anarchists Antonio Dominquez

1068
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 8: and Damiao the Silver who murdered by the communists, who

1069
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 8: also wounded another ten members of the printers union and

1070
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 8: attacked and stole the assets of the footwear workers Union,

1071
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 8: so that further weakened the anarchist struggle when they were

1072
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 8: already dealing with that government repression. And in a sense,

1073
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 8: anarchists are like roaches. We just keep on struggling and surviving,

1074
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 8: and the persistence of anarchist resistance in spite of all

1075
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 8: this repression, we would trigger a further backlash by the bourgeoisie.

1076
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 8: We should also arise to challenge the survival of anarchism,

1077
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 8: and they left in general in Brazil, from the very

1078
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 8: same Italy that brought Many an anarchist, also came Many

1079
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 8: a fascist, which brings us to the Brazilian integralist movement.

1080
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 8: But to find out what happened in the nineteen twenties

1081
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 8: and thirties and onward. You'll have to wait for the

1082
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 8: next episode. I have an andrew sage you can find

1083
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 8: on YouTube dot com slash Andrewism and feature in dot

1084
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 8: com slash same true and this has been it could

1085
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 8: happen here. All powerful the people welcome to that could

1086
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 8: happen here. I'm addressage of future channel Andrewism. Today will

1087
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 8: continue in the last in American Anarchism series with that

1088
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 8: exploration of anarchism in Brazil. I'm joined by Garrison D.

1089
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 8: Hello there and once again thanks to the scholarship of

1090
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 8: Edgar Rodriguez, Jesse Cohen, Philippe Corea, Raphael Vianna, Li Silva Cowan,

1091
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 8: Williando Santos, Edieline Toledo, and Luigi Biondi. When we last

1092
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 8: left off, anarchist labor resistance in Brazil had triggered a

1093
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 8: turning point and a reaction. Weakened by the splits caused

1094
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 8: by the Bolsheviks and the military repression of the government,

1095
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 8: another faction would step in to cripple the anarchist cause

1096
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 8: even further. The Integralists in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties,

1097
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 8: Brazil saw the rise of the Brazilian Integralist Action, the

1098
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 8: aib A nationalist movement led by Pinio Salgado. During a

1099
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 8: trip to Europe, Salgado became enamored with Benito Mussolini's fascist

1100
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 8: movement in Italy. Upon his return to Brazil and at

1101
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 8: the height of Catulio Aragas's dictatorship, which was ushered in

1102
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 8: thanks to a cool weather the bren Alliance, Salgado founded

1103
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 8: this Society for Political Studies, gathering intellectuals who were sympathetic

1104
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 8: to fascism. Then he essumed the October Manifesto, laying out

1105
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 8: the groundwork for the Brazilian Integralist Action. The movement closely

1106
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 8: mirrored Italian fascism with its green shirted paramilitary wing, regimented demonstrations,

1107
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 8: and militant rhetoric. The Salgado publicly rejected racism, many members

1108
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 8: of his party adopted anti Semitic views. Integralism was financed

1109
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 8: in part by the Italian embassy, with the Roman salute

1110
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 8: and the Tupe word an nawe meaning you are my brother,

1111
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 8: as key symbols of the unity. Integralist action drew its

1112
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 8: support from lower middle class Italians. And Portuguese immigrants, alongside

1113
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 8: sections of the Brazilian military, particularly the navy. As the

1114
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 8: party grew, it became the dictator of Vargas's primary right

1115
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 8: wing basis support, especially after he began to crack down

1116
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 8: on the Communist Party. Integralists frequently engaged in street violence

1117
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 8: and terrorism aimed at leftist groups. In nineteen fifty one,

1118
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,919
Speaker 8: Podagas introduced the Labor Regulations based and Mussolinian's Labor Charter.

1119
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 8: Independent industrial unions were banned. Union membership had to be

1120
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 8: registered with the Ministry of Labor, two thirds of the

1121
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 8: union membership had to be native born or naturalized Brazilians.

1122
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 8: Oh no, yeah, and union officers were required to either

1123
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 8: be resident in Brazil for ten years if naturalized, or

1124
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 8: thirty years if foreign born.

1125
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 10: That's pretty fucked up, I would assume. Also just very

1126
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 10: damaging to the entire labor movement in the country, A

1127
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 10: very intense series of restrictions.

1128
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:38,439
Speaker 8: Yes, as a very immigrant empowered labor movement. Yeah, yeah,

1129
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 8: that was definitely targeted. Definitely definitely targeted. Obviously, like the

1130
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 8: class consciousness of the immigrant workers was such a threat

1131
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 8: that they had to root them all from any position

1132
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 8: of influence within the sanctioned unions. Salgado and the Interioralists,

1133
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 8: of course, welcomed these degrees and work with the police

1134
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 8: to capture in the ten workers. The communeists also apparently

1135
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 8: welcome the impositions the Ministry of Labor. Meanwhile, anarchists and

1136
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 8: workers were weathering rightist violence. One time, integralists kicked down

1137
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 8: the doors of the Bakery Workers Union, the construction workers

1138
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 8: leave the mill and ware house operatives, Stonemason's Union and

1139
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 8: Union of Caffee Employees, destroy their assets and extra judiciously

1140
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 8: hauled away the workers as prisoners.

1141
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 10: So they just started like kidnapping people and doing like

1142
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 10: basically state sanctioned terrorism exactly.

1143
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 8: Another integralist, Gustavo Barosso, used his walking stick to break

1144
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 8: the arm of an anti fascist sixteen year old worker

1145
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 8: named neer Colejo as she was making a speech against fascism.

1146
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 7: Time is a flat circle.

1147
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 8: Indeed it is instead of sticks this time they're using cars.

1148
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,919
Speaker 8: But it's the same same principle and sticks. Oh yeah,

1149
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 8: people are still collecting sticks.

1150
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 10: I have been hit by many a stick from a

1151
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 10: fascist at a street demo, but especially as the data hture.

1152
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 8: Hmm, down. So with all this violence the deal with

1153
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 8: in this time the anarchist presses had to hounked down

1154
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 8: and prepare to face further attacks. In nineteen thirty three,

1155
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 8: the Libertarian Anti Fascist Committee sounded alarm on the dire

1156
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 8: threat of integralism as what anarchist press wrote, like fascism,

1157
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 8: integralism means to enslave and fetter the people that has

1158
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 8: now defend our liberty like men. Let's we be forced

1159
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 8: to weep like mad men hereafter. On December twenty fourth,

1160
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 8: nineteen thirty three, the tensions were an all time high

1161
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 8: for when it humiliates and defeat at the Saloon ser

1162
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 8: gu Garcia Plinio Salgado's Integralists, known as the Green Shirts,

1163
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 8: planned a show of force to assert their dominance. Their

1164
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 8: target union leaders and leftists, particularly anarchists, who sit against

1165
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 8: their fascist vision for Brazil. According to reports from those

1166
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 8: of US on December first, the Integralists had organized eighteen

1167
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 8: companies of green in shirted marchers who would parade through

1168
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 8: the heart of South Paolo, prepared to crush any resistance

1169
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 8: that came their way. Reinforcements from Rudishonneio, led by Gustavo

1170
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 8: Barosso bolstered their numbers with five hundred trained assault troops

1171
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 8: prime to attack. The police, of course, were openly supported

1172
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 8: of the Interioralists and had even stationed machine guns at

1173
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 8: key points throughout the city to ensure the march went smoothly.

1174
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 8: Co Arleino de Olivera had an additional four hundred troops

1175
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 8: made up of infantry, fire brigade units and cavalry ready

1176
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 8: to intervene. Seems like clear overkill, but it was a

1177
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 8: shower force, so just to be expected. By the time

1178
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 8: the marchers reached the pressure that say, a huge crowd

1179
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 8: had gathered, some curious onlookers, others outright opponents of the

1180
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 8: fascist movement. As the Interroorists survived at the cathedral, cries

1181
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 8: of death to the Fascists and down with the Green

1182
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 8: Shirts echoed throughout the square. Suddenly shots rang out. Some

1183
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 8: say the fire and began accidentally when a machine gun

1184
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 8: set up by the civil Guard was nudged. Others claim

1185
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 8: it was the communists line in wait, ready to ambush

1186
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 8: the march. Regardless, chaos erupted before the anarchists had even

1187
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 8: initiated their planned attack. The scene quickly evolved into pandemonium,

1188
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 8: people fled in terror, shots continued to fire, and several

1189
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 8: were mortally wounded. The planned pledge of loyalty to Planio Salgado,

1190
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 8: the head of the Integralists, never took place that day,

1191
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 8: but by nineteen thirty seven, Salgado launched a presidential campaign,

1192
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 8: hoping to ride the wave of crow and support for

1193
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 8: his movement and become a dictator in his own right. However,

1194
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 8: when Varragas canceled the elections and established the authoritarian Estado

1195
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 8: Novo regime, he banned the Integralist Party along with all

1196
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 8: the others sideline in Salgado. In response, Integralist militants launched

1197
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 8: two uprisings in nineteen thirty eight, of which failed. Sagata

1198
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 8: was imprisoned and lead to exile to Portugal. After spending

1199
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 8: most of his life supporting the dictators of Brazil, his

1200
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 8: attempts to become one of his own utterly field.

1201
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 10: There's a few interesting things in this moment here, particularly

1202
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 10: like how the like initial struggle against fascism once again

1203
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 10: kind of laid at the feet of anarchists and communists

1204
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 10: had like a degree of hesitancy to like to like

1205
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 10: jump in fully and then also, like I find it

1206
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 10: interesting the way that these like this era of fascists

1207
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 10: in Brazil particularly, we're targeting unions, but as almost as

1208
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 10: a way just to target like immigrants, Like it was

1209
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 10: like the easiest way for them to actually just do

1210
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 10: anti immigrant violence was like through the unions.

1211
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, anti immigrant violence is almost always anti worker violence

1212
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 8: as well.

1213
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, no, no, in the States at least right now,

1214
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 10: we're just like seeing another kind of uptick in like

1215
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 10: anti immigrant rhetoric and violence, and yeah, a lot of

1216
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 10: it is tied to like labor, like how immigrants are

1217
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,439
Speaker 10: are taking jobs away from the lower classes, that sort

1218
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 10: of thing.

1219
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 8: Huh. As always you remember that, you know it could

1220
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 8: happen here, and it's important to be constantly aware and

1221
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 8: on God against even the ghost, the shadow of fascism

1222
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 8: creeping up in your communities. It's easy to be treated

1223
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 8: by the media or by others as just oh, you're

1224
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 8: making a big deal about it, over exaggerates in the threat.

1225
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 8: But know, these things sinuwable very quickly. They need to

1226
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 8: be nipped in the bud. And it's largely thanks to

1227
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 8: anti fascists on the front lines that the situation is

1228
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 8: not as bad as it could be right now. Yeah,

1229
01:07:52,000 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 8: even though it is getting this every day. For the

1230
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 8: already weakened anarchists and labor movements in Brazil, Integralism had

1231
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 8: posed a dire threat. They were already splintered and in decline,

1232
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 8: struggling to maintain influence. An Integralism's rapid rise, with his

1233
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 8: militarized structure and anti leftist violence, fully suppressed their hopes.

1234
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 8: The communists weren't exactly a help either. The anarchists lost

1235
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,120
Speaker 8: a significant strongholder their struggle on the premises of the

1236
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 8: Anti Clerical League and Heriodi Jhaneiro when communists sent to

1237
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 8: disrupt their meeting called the police on them, leading to

1238
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 8: the arrest of eight anarchists and the closure of the

1239
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 8: Anti Clerical League center and its newspaper. With the help

1240
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 8: of the Integralists, communists and leaders of Cardinal Sebastio Lem's

1241
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 8: Brazilian Catholic Party, Getulio Vargas faced little resistance in establishing

1242
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:58,839
Speaker 8: his Estado Novo dictatorship. His authoritarian regime lasted from nineteen

1243
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 8: thirty seven to nineteen forty five and was marked by

1244
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 8: continuous crackdowns on labor, autonomy and anarchism. But despite the

1245
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 8: common claims the nineteen thirties marked the end of anarchism

1246
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 8: in Brazil, anarchists remained active in unions and cultural spaces

1247
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 8: despite repression. Anarchists published influential periodicals like A playbe and

1248
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 8: a Childdreta, and aimed to create a national anarchist political organization.

1249
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,440
Speaker 8: Post nineteen forty five, in the era of re deemocratization,

1250
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:32,800
Speaker 8: anarchists converged in South Pawerlo for Brazilian Anarchist Congresses in

1251
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 8: nineteen forty eight and nineteen fifty nine, which brought together

1252
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:40,560
Speaker 8: veterans and motivated the re establishment of social centers. The

1253
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 8: anarchists resumed educational and cultural activities that I found in

1254
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 8: the Centro des Cultural Socil the CCS, which became a

1255
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 8: hub for anarchist intellectual life, hosted lectures, conferences, literary events,

1256
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:56,839
Speaker 8: and even theater performances. The anarchists were back. The CCS

1257
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 8: had played a key role in building anarchist networks, even

1258
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:03,759
Speaker 8: hosted exiles from Spain and helped establish similar cultural centers

1259
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 8: in the suburbs of sal Paolo and other cities across Brazil.

1260
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,679
Speaker 8: In Rio de Janeiro, a similar space emerged in nineteen

1261
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 8: fifty eight. The Centrol de Studos put Fessor jose Ka

1262
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 8: or CEPJO, like the CCS, DECEPJO, hosted courses, lectures, and debates.

1263
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,839
Speaker 8: In nineteen sixty one, it helps establish an anarchist publishing

1264
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 8: house called Mundo Libre in sarth Paulo. Union activity surged,

1265
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 8: with three hundred thousand workers striking in nineteen fifty three

1266
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 8: and another four hundred thousand in nineteen fifty seven. This

1267
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 8: period of intense mobilization provided an opportunity for anarchists and

1268
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 8: independent socialists to come together and form the Syndicalist Orientation

1269
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 8: Movement or MOS. Created in nineteen fifty three, MS aimed

1270
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 8: to fight for the autonomy and freedom of workers unions

1271
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 8: resistant state at corporate control. By nineteen fifty seven, they

1272
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 8: had enough momentum to contest union leadership positions, especially within

1273
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 8: the graphics sector. Despite these strides, however, the anarchists went

1274
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 8: one faced considerable challenges. The re democratization after nineteen forty

1275
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,799
Speaker 8: five offered some room for growth, but the labor landscape

1276
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,720
Speaker 8: was dominated by corporatist forces, the Communist Party and the

1277
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 8: Brazilian Labor Party anarchists found themselves battling for influence in

1278
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 8: a crowded political field. Their efforts to revitalize the movement

1279
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,480
Speaker 8: were further stifled by a lack of resources and militants,

1280
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 8: which limited their presence in social movements. The momentum gained

1281
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 8: the nineteen fifties came to a crash in holds with

1282
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 8: the military coup of nineteen sixty four. Once again, Brazil

1283
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 8: entered a period of authoritarian rule, placing anarchist activists in

1284
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 8: a precarious position. In May nineteen sixty four, anarchists from

1285
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 8: Rio de Janeiro and South Paolo organized a secret meeting

1286
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 8: to strategize, focused on safeguard and anarchist resources. Many went underground,

1287
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 8: facing renewed repression and uncertainty about the future of their movement.

1288
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 8: They shifted focused to education and cultural spaces to survive

1289
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:09,719
Speaker 8: with initiatives like the newspaper or Protesto and the publishing

1290
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 8: house Helminal. Anarchists, including young students new to the cause,

1291
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 8: formed the libertarian student movement the MEL in nineteen sixty seven,

1292
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 8: with the intention of fixing a position and fighting back,

1293
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:24,840
Speaker 8: as well as having an active presence in class and

1294
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 8: ideological struggles market out directions more in accordance with the

1295
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 8: federalist principles which governed the life of every class organization.

1296
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 8: But after one student, Edson Louise, was murdered by the

1297
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:40,679
Speaker 8: military police, the MEL and other student initiatives faced heavy

1298
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 8: persecution after the nineteen sixty Institutional Acts Number five. With

1299
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:49,719
Speaker 8: the AI five, which suspended most civil rights including herbiest corpus,

1300
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 8: allowed for the removal from office of opposition politicians, enabled

1301
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 8: federal interventions and municipalities and states, and enabled the institutionalization

1302
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 8: of arbitrary detention, taught and extra judicial killing by the regime.

1303
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 8: This military dictatorship that group Brazil from nineteen sixty four

1304
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 8: to nineteen eighty five forced anarchist movements into survival mood.

1305
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 8: In Rio de Janeiro, the Centro de Studo's professor Jose Equitica,

1306
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 8: operated secretly, while in South Paulo, the Centro de Cultural

1307
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:22,759
Speaker 8: Sociel kept the flame of anarchist thought alive through underground

1308
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 8: propaganda and secret meetings. These centers were vital in maintaining

1309
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 8: connections with international anarchist movements, insurance the ideology persisted despite

1310
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 8: the harsh political climate. You see the importance of international

1311
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:41,720
Speaker 8: solarity for in its head yet again, and you see

1312
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:45,719
Speaker 8: also the importance of having cultural centers, social centers, community

1313
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 8: centers where they movement contraw strength even when it's not

1314
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:54,560
Speaker 8: directly engaged in labor organizing or direct political struggle. Just

1315
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 8: that rejuvenation of community is enough to maintain the survival

1316
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 8: of that ideological struggle, even all hope seems lost.

1317
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 10: No, I mean this is something like you see a

1318
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:09,799
Speaker 10: lot especially after or during like a movement that's faced

1319
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 10: incredible repression. Is that kind of it goes back to

1320
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 10: kind of its earlier forms, at least in terms of

1321
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,559
Speaker 10: like like the like the social aspects. In some ways,

1322
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 10: it feels like it's kind of regressing back to kind

1323
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,520
Speaker 10: of where it like started back in the last episode

1324
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 10: with some of those like same like you know, like

1325
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:26,760
Speaker 10: like underground newspapers all this. Like this this like a

1326
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 10: cultural engagements, as you said, kind of like a way

1327
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:33,759
Speaker 10: to like keep the light alive during like an intense,

1328
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 10: like military style effort of repression.

1329
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:52,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's really quite necessary. Unfortunately, in nineteen sixty nine,

1330
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 8: the headquarters of Sepchu was raided by Air Force agents.

1331
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 8: The invasion resulted in the arrass and prospers of eighteen members,

1332
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 8: including the anarchist Adiel Perez, who endured a month of

1333
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 8: imprisonment and torture. So between nineteen seventy two nineteen seventy

1334
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:13,799
Speaker 8: seven anarchists were forced into even greater degrees of secrecy,

1335
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 8: meeting in very small, title knit groups. In terms of

1336
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 8: organizational strength, this might have been the lowest point for

1337
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 8: anarchism in Brazil, but things began to shift in nineteen

1338
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:29,639
Speaker 8: seventy seven as a dictatorship started to lose its grip.

1339
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 8: That year, the anarchist periodical or Animigouret or The King's Enemy,

1340
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 8: was launched in Bihir, marking a significant moment for the movement.

1341
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 8: This newspaper brought together student and union militants from various

1342
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:48,719
Speaker 8: parts of the country Bahir, Rioligheiro, Sapaolo, Prio, grand Rasul,

1343
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:53,760
Speaker 8: Paraiba and Para. Despite internal conflicts and ideological differences, the

1344
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 8: paper played a crucial role in reorganizing the anarchist movement,

1345
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 8: either the influence of the counterculture or Inimiguorey tackled issues

1346
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 8: like revolutionary unionism, anarchist syndicalism, the student movement, gender sexuality,

1347
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,639
Speaker 8: and political theory. The paper ran until nineteen eighty two,

1348
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 8: and after hiatus resumed briefly between nineteen eighty seven and

1349
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 8: nineteen eighty eight. During this same period there was the

1350
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,759
Speaker 8: first sign of notable anarchist engagement with the labor movement

1351
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 8: in years. Following a wave of strikes involving more than

1352
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:29,519
Speaker 8: forty eight thousand workers, anarchists began questioning the bureaucratic union

1353
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 8: structures in South Paolo to Collectivo, the Britario de Opposichiao

1354
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:37,880
Speaker 8: Syndical or COLLOPS was formed, closely aligned with the ideas

1355
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 8: of the Metalworkers Opposition movement. Collapse was officially established during

1356
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 8: the first National Meeting of Workers in Opposition to the

1357
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:50,280
Speaker 8: Trade Union Structure or ENTOS, held in September nineteen eighty

1358
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:54,360
Speaker 8: in NITROI. This meeting brought together in union opposition from

1359
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 8: sixteen states across Brazil, further spark in the revival of

1360
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,120
Speaker 8: anarchist involvement in the labor movement. But one of the

1361
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 8: most significant developments to come out in this period was

1362
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:08,759
Speaker 8: the rise of the movement Ento dos Trabahaldoes Urai Semterre,

1363
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 8: the Landless Workers Movement or MST, emerging nineteen eighty four,

1364
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 8: just before the end of the military regime, the MST

1365
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 8: became a mass movement with distinctly anarchist communist characteristics. It

1366
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 8: adopted decentralized, non hierarchical structure that prioritized autonomous direct action

1367
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 8: principles deeply aligned with anarchism. However, the MST has resisted

1368
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:37,639
Speaker 8: being identified as explicitly anarchist, avoiding the label to maintain

1369
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 8: broader support and avoid the stigma attached to anarchist movements.

1370
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 8: Over time, while maintaining its independence, the MST has built

1371
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 8: alliances with the various political parties, including the Workers' Party,

1372
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:51,479
Speaker 8: which would go on to form the government in two

1373
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 8: thousand and two. But the nineteen eighties, Brazilian anarchism began

1374
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 8: reflecting the broader new social movements that had emerged globally

1375
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 8: after the nineteen sixties. Ecology, feminism, and new discourses on

1376
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 8: sexuality were now key components of anarchists. Thought. Then I

1377
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:10,640
Speaker 8: saw the rise of pro homosexual actists like Nestor Penger,

1378
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 8: and Argentinian born intellectual who became a central figure in

1379
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 8: Brazilian anarchist Son.

1380
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 10: You know, some have considered me a pro homosexual, Okay,

1381
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:28,560
Speaker 10: but but no mean this is a continued It is

1382
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:31,760
Speaker 10: interesting to see this like starting with student movements and

1383
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 10: then getting back into kind of labor over time after

1384
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:40,560
Speaker 10: they like rebuild their movement through students and then continuing

1385
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 10: to like adopt more and more like modern social views

1386
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 10: and like cultural engagement. Have an image here of one

1387
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:50,599
Speaker 10: of their newspapers that has what looks like two men

1388
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,639
Speaker 10: having sex right on the cover. That's like the seventies,

1389
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:55,440
Speaker 10: which is which is quite something.

1390
01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:58,599
Speaker 8: Incredible, must have been very scandalous at the time.

1391
01:18:58,960 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1392
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 8: Where the nineteen nineties, as Brazil transitioned to the New

1393
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:08,240
Speaker 8: Republic and embraced new liberalism, anarchists became key players in

1394
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 8: shaping a wave of social movements. They actively helped to

1395
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:16,760
Speaker 8: create and integrate into these movements, advocating their principles and strategies.

1396
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 8: One prominent example was Brazil's involvement in the global anti

1397
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 8: globalization movement, inspired by protests like the Seattle Wto demonstrations

1398
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:29,560
Speaker 8: in nineteen ninety nine. In Brazil, this movement began in

1399
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 8: Santos on the same date, led by anarchists, ecologists, and libertarians.

1400
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:38,439
Speaker 8: By two thousand, a coalition of these groups emerged, particularly

1401
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 8: in South Parlo and continued to organize in actions against

1402
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 8: the liberal policies until two thousand and three. The protest

1403
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 8: targeted institutions like the IMF, the World Bank and WO

1404
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:52,840
Speaker 8: and introduced the black block tactic to Brazil. Anarchists also

1405
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:56,639
Speaker 8: helped to establish Brazil's Center for Independent Media CMI, part

1406
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:59,679
Speaker 8: of the Global Indie Media Network, which aimed to challenge

1407
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 8: means stree media dominance. Active between two thousand and one

1408
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 8: and two thousand and five, CMI was a key platform

1409
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 8: for independent journalism across fourteen Brazilian cities. Beyond protests, anarchists

1410
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 8: were involved in broader social movements, contributing to housing struggles

1411
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 8: in South Power and rerosion Ero, as well as supporting feminists, indigenous,

1412
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:24,799
Speaker 8: black and LGBT causes. They played significant roles in movements

1413
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:29,000
Speaker 8: like the National Movement of Collectors of Recyclable Material MMCR,

1414
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,280
Speaker 8: the previously mentioned Landless Workers Movement or MSD, and the

1415
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 8: Homeless Workers Movement the MTSD, reflecting their deep involvement in

1416
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 8: Brazil's diverse social landscape. In the early two thousands, the

1417
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 8: anarchists popular Union the UNIPA helped form networks such as

1418
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,680
Speaker 8: the Class and Combative Student Network or the RCC and

1419
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 8: the Federation of Revolutionary Syndicalist Organizations of Brazil or the

1420
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 8: FOB further cement and anarchism's influence in students and workers struggles.

1421
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 8: Despite being considered part of a or a leftist current,

1422
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 8: anarchists specifically made a lasting impact on Brazil's social movement

1423
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 8: during this period. Today, Brazilian anarchism continues to evolve, shaped

1424
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 8: by the principles vispacifismo, a strategy we anarchists work alongside

1425
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 8: broader social movements or maintaining their own distinct ideology. Many

1426
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 8: anarchist federations have found common cause with groups like the MST,

1427
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 8: supporting their struggles or promoting their own vision of a stateless,

1428
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:29,680
Speaker 8: non hierarchical society. The story of anarchists in Brazil is

1429
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 8: one of endurance, adaptability, and reinvention. Despite decades of repression,

1430
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 8: the movement has continued to shape Brazil's political landscape, from

1431
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:42,799
Speaker 8: underground propaganda dune ditatorship to the mass mobilization of landless

1432
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:44,519
Speaker 8: workers and intellectuals alike.

1433
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:48,720
Speaker 10: Similar to what they were doing ninety years ago. We've

1434
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 10: also seen a resurgence of anarchist anti fascism in Brazil. Indeed,

1435
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,120
Speaker 10: around the same time we kind of saw this rise

1436
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 10: in the United States as well as in Europe with

1437
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 10: the emergence of these like right wing populist politicians between

1438
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 10: like Trump and Bolsonario, you've been seeing more of like

1439
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:09,880
Speaker 10: the black block style anarchism in Brazil, which often kind

1440
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,439
Speaker 10: of in this era went hand in hand with like

1441
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:14,599
Speaker 10: anti fascist action in organizing.

1442
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 8: Indeed, so that's been the story, very summarized account like

1443
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 8: I would recommend that you check out. Of course, the

1444
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 8: scholarship of the folks I mentioned the beginning, the resources

1445
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:32,000
Speaker 8: all across the Internet, particularly the Anarchists Library discussing Brazilian anarchism.

1446
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:36,400
Speaker 8: This has been it can happen here. I've been Andrew Siege.

1447
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 8: You can find me on YouTube dot com, stash Andrewism

1448
01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:42,280
Speaker 8: feature dot com stas Saint Drew. I've been here with

1449
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:46,680
Speaker 8: Gare and that's a piece.

1450
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to It could Happen Here, a podcast in

1451
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 2: which every week I sit down with my friends Mia

1452
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:20,480
Speaker 2: and Garrison and I walk them through a little backyard

1453
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 2: chemistry project. Now today we are building a common commonly

1454
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 2: used explosive no paters called oh What's that?

1455
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:30,120
Speaker 9: Cason.

1456
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:32,599
Speaker 7: That is, we cannot give those instructions on air.

1457
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 2: Oh oh oh, well, what about what about for our

1458
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 2: DX like hexogen safe? We can make hexogen right?

1459
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:41,720
Speaker 7: I think you need a special H tech stamp or

1460
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:43,280
Speaker 7: permit to teach that.

1461
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:45,680
Speaker 9: Sorry, what if we talk about how to make it

1462
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:46,640
Speaker 9: in roadblocks?

1463
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: Oh?

1464
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, no, that's fine. They haven't. They haven't cracked roadblocks yet.

1465
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:50,839
Speaker 7: They correct minecraft.

1466
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 9: That's good, that's good. The FEDS don't know about that one.

1467
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:54,680
Speaker 7: Okay, they don't know about that one yet.

1468
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 2: Well, in that case, I'm going to read these this

1469
01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 2: ingredient list for pet in that I found in a

1470
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 2: torrent of Taylor Swift songs. So this is I'm certain

1471
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 2: the best information available right now. Anyway, we're talking this

1472
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:12,680
Speaker 2: week about explosives. We're talking particularly about the fact that

1473
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:17,320
Speaker 2: Israel just carry out an attack against Tesblah, a militant

1474
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:22,280
Speaker 2: organization in Lebanon, using pet in, which is one of

1475
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:26,000
Speaker 2: the two ingredients in Semtex. It is commonly used as

1476
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 2: the detonator. It's a stable, high explosive, so it's often

1477
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 2: used to like basically trigger the larger explosive charge.

1478
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:35,000
Speaker 9: Which is generally like hexygen.

1479
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:37,719
Speaker 2: You know, you mix the two together with like plastic

1480
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 2: agents and you get like that's where you get the

1481
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:44,880
Speaker 2: traditional plastic explosives. And it's come out recently that the

1482
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:48,759
Speaker 2: Masad managed to sneak some of this stuff, well sneak's

1483
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 2: not even really the right word, but they managed to

1484
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 2: impregnate a batch of pagers and radios with pet in. Now,

1485
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 2: this was a pretty big story last week. I think

1486
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:00,760
Speaker 2: a lot of people are focusing kind of on the

1487
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 2: wrong parts of it. But yeah, that's what we're going

1488
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 2: to be talking about today because there's an element of

1489
01:25:08,360 --> 01:25:12,719
Speaker 2: this story that hasn't gotten out, which is the degree

1490
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:17,000
Speaker 2: to which what Israel did to hasblah here is something

1491
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:21,400
Speaker 2: that anybody with roughly thirty thousand dollars could imitate to

1492
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 2: a surprising degree of fidelity. Like, this is an attack

1493
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 2: that is deeply easy to carry out, and the fact

1494
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:34,200
Speaker 2: that Israel has kind of made the decision to pull

1495
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 2: this up is a kind of the breaking of a

1496
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,560
Speaker 2: seal in a way, and I think it portins some

1497
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:44,040
Speaker 2: very frightening things for all of us, and particularly for

1498
01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:44,679
Speaker 2: air travel.

1499
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:46,320
Speaker 9: So that's what we're going to be talking about today.

1500
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:49,560
Speaker 10: Do you think like the the either like hijacking or

1501
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 10: infiltration of the supply chain is as replicable for yes,

1502
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 10: a non state agency.

1503
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:57,360
Speaker 2: Yes, that is the thing that is scariest about this

1504
01:25:57,439 --> 01:25:59,040
Speaker 2: attack to me, and that is going to be kind

1505
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 2: of the meat of what talking about. We should probably

1506
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:05,120
Speaker 2: start by this sort of laying out the scale the attack.

1507
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 7: I mean, I also have one main question. What's a pager?

1508
01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 2: So Garrison, once upon a time, Uh huh, we kind

1509
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:17,759
Speaker 2: of had the ability to broadcast signals over large areas,

1510
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:19,880
Speaker 2: but it was a real pain in the ass to

1511
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:22,400
Speaker 2: like do that with a phone call or anything but

1512
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:24,760
Speaker 2: a couple of words at a time. Oh so like

1513
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,840
Speaker 2: a text message, like a text message, except for you

1514
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,679
Speaker 2: can't really respond to it. Oh okay, but it looked

1515
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:34,400
Speaker 2: pretty cool to clip on your belt in the late nineties,

1516
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 2: if you were like one of the doctors on the

1517
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:37,560
Speaker 2: set of Er.

1518
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:39,519
Speaker 9: Did you ever watch Er Garrison?

1519
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 7: Were you too young for that? That's the George Clooney show, right.

1520
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 2: Cluone tang, But yes, he looked great in it. Yeah,

1521
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 2: So that's that's where pagers came from. Was the television

1522
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:51,439
Speaker 2: show Er, written by Michael Crichton, which means pagers are

1523
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:52,880
Speaker 2: related to dinosaurs.

1524
01:26:53,479 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 9: And yeah, so.

1525
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,519
Speaker 2: Israel managed to get We'll talk a little bit later

1526
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 2: about how, but they managed to get explosives in an

1527
01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 2: unknown number, but certainly hundreds of these walkie talkies, particularly

1528
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 2: in the batteries. By the end of the first day

1529
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:12,000
Speaker 2: of attacks, round a dozen people were dead and twenty

1530
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:13,559
Speaker 2: seven hundred had been wounded.

1531
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 9: Many people.

1532
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 2: Seriously, there's like horrible videos of folks going flying off

1533
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:20,640
Speaker 2: of bicycles and the like when this stuff detonates, Like

1534
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:25,760
Speaker 2: it takes very little petn to create a pretty significant explosion,

1535
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 2: and we're looking at about like zero point one point

1536
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 2: one grams I think of explosive agent actually in each

1537
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 2: walkie talkie, which was enough to kill in May May

1538
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:38,879
Speaker 2: shitload of people. Some of these folks were members of Hesbelah.

1539
01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:41,679
Speaker 2: I think HESBLA has confirmed that eight of their fighters

1540
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:44,920
Speaker 2: were killed. At least four of the dead are children,

1541
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 2: and the second day of the attack, a bunch of

1542
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:50,439
Speaker 2: radios went off as well. Another twenty people were killed

1543
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 2: and hundreds more wounded. So you're talking about a very

1544
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:57,840
Speaker 2: sizable attack. Israel is not claimed credit for this, but

1545
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 2: the New York Times has done some pretty keep reporting

1546
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:03,639
Speaker 2: on this, and per that quote, twelve current and former

1547
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:06,400
Speaker 2: defense and intelligence officials who were briefed on the attack

1548
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:08,360
Speaker 2: say the Israelis were behind it.

1549
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:12,120
Speaker 9: And it's just also obvious that this was Israel who else,

1550
01:28:12,439 --> 01:28:15,000
Speaker 9: Like who else would do this?

1551
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 2: Now, one of the reasons I'm getting into this is

1552
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 2: that there were a lot like the first kind of

1553
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 2: concern that people had when this attack was carried out

1554
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 2: is like, oh shit, was this some sort of a hack?

1555
01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:32,599
Speaker 2: Did Israel exploit some sort of a glitch in how

1556
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:35,880
Speaker 2: these products batteries worked and basically like hack them to

1557
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:40,519
Speaker 2: cause a runaway thermal escalation within the battery that led

1558
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 2: to it detonating.

1559
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:43,920
Speaker 10: Is all of our electronics just one hack away from

1560
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 10: turning from being turned into a bob No?

1561
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:52,280
Speaker 2: And I understand why people focused on that aspect of it,

1562
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:54,519
Speaker 2: but it led to I think some articles that are

1563
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:56,799
Speaker 2: this is going to be one of those we always

1564
01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 2: we try to I hope we usually managed to be

1565
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 2: the like calm voices in the room, but this is

1566
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 2: one of those cases where really people need to be

1567
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 2: less calm. And I do want to highlight an article

1568
01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 2: that I think went in the wrong direction on that front.

1569
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 2: It's a CNN business piece called we still don't know

1570
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:14,840
Speaker 2: how the Lebanon pager attack happened. Here's what we do

1571
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:18,360
Speaker 2: know about our own electronic devices, and I'm going to

1572
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 2: read a quote from that. In short, your communications device

1573
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 2: is not at risk for exploding unless it's heavily tampered with,

1574
01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:26,520
Speaker 2: un least with explosives.

1575
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 9: Experts who spoke.

1576
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:31,799
Speaker 2: To CNN set Justin Kappos, a cybersecurity professor at NYU,

1577
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:34,120
Speaker 2: said that it's possible to cause damage to a variety

1578
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:37,519
Speaker 2: of batteries, most commonly lithium batteries, but he said it

1579
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 2: seems like the devices were intentionally designed to explode when triggered,

1580
01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 2: not a pager that everyone else in the world is using.

1581
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:46,599
Speaker 2: If you're a normal person with a lithium ion battery,

1582
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 2: I would not be over concerned about this CAPO set

1583
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:52,080
Speaker 2: and I think that that is an error, and we're

1584
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:54,240
Speaker 2: going to get into as to why. But let's talk

1585
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 2: about how Israel did this first. And this is again

1586
01:29:57,160 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 2: all kind of per the New York Times reporting how

1587
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 2: Israel built a modern day trojan horse. They seem to

1588
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:04,720
Speaker 2: be the first people who have kind of put all

1589
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 2: of this together to an extent that is probably pretty

1590
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:10,600
Speaker 2: close to accurate. There are some debates as to like,

1591
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:13,599
Speaker 2: did they actually have a detonator in here or did

1592
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:17,519
Speaker 2: they cause a thermal because PETN, while it's very stable,

1593
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 2: can be set off by heat. So it's theoretically possible

1594
01:30:21,439 --> 01:30:24,480
Speaker 2: to get a battery hot enough that it can detonate PETN,

1595
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:27,160
Speaker 2: but it's not going to be as reliable as using

1596
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 2: something like a bridge wire cap like a traditional like

1597
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:34,720
Speaker 2: triggering device, and so it's a little bit unclear as

1598
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 2: to how this was made. But whatever the case, basically

1599
01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:43,120
Speaker 2: what Israel did is they made their own batteries for

1600
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:47,519
Speaker 2: walkie talkies that were clones of an earlier kind of

1601
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 2: walkie talkie made by a Taiwanese company that were no

1602
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,840
Speaker 2: longer in production. Right, so, this Taiwanese company had made

1603
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:57,200
Speaker 2: real walkie talkies for a while, they stopped making them.

1604
01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 2: Israel got their hands on some originals and manufactured copies.

1605
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:03,080
Speaker 2: Now that is the part of this that would be

1606
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:06,439
Speaker 2: hard to replicate. But the copies of the walkie talkies

1607
01:31:06,479 --> 01:31:11,320
Speaker 2: themselves were not the explosive agent. What actually where the

1608
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:16,440
Speaker 2: explosives were was in the detachable battery, and Masad crafted

1609
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:21,280
Speaker 2: batteries themselves for these walkie talkies and wove PETN into

1610
01:31:21,320 --> 01:31:24,360
Speaker 2: the batteries. So if you haven't really looked at a

1611
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 2: lithium ion battery like one of the kinds of batteries

1612
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:29,720
Speaker 2: that you're going to like, I mean, it's similar to

1613
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 2: the ones in your phone, but it's just also like

1614
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:34,920
Speaker 2: any kind of electronics battery. They are kind of these

1615
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 2: weird folded things, like they look just like a little

1616
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:42,560
Speaker 2: square packet, usually with like a cord coming off of

1617
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:44,680
Speaker 2: it if you actually look at the battery. But the

1618
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 2: way they're asseymbled is they're like laminated into an aluminum

1619
01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 2: foil pouch. And while you are kind of doing that

1620
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:56,400
Speaker 2: laminating process, you can basically just weave some PETN into

1621
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 2: like alongside the battery, and it will cost you a

1622
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:03,679
Speaker 2: small fraction of the batteries, like life like, you won't

1623
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 2: get as much actual battery time out of it, but

1624
01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:09,400
Speaker 2: it's not going to detonate on its own. PTN is

1625
01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:11,880
Speaker 2: They actually just conducted in twenty twenty a study to

1626
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:15,080
Speaker 2: show that it can last for years. This is like

1627
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:17,839
Speaker 2: the compound we use in the detonators in our nuclear devices.

1628
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:20,880
Speaker 2: Once you get a bunch of walkie talkies that are

1629
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:24,040
Speaker 2: impregnated with this stuff out there. You could sit on

1630
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:28,400
Speaker 2: them for years until like you needed to actually use them. Now,

1631
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:30,439
Speaker 2: the key thing about this, it seems like when you're

1632
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:34,080
Speaker 2: talking about wrapping a battery that's got you know, plastic

1633
01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:36,240
Speaker 2: explosives in it, well, that's the kind of thing that

1634
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:38,960
Speaker 2: only a state level actor can do. And this is

1635
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:41,160
Speaker 2: going to bring me to the source that I really

1636
01:32:41,200 --> 01:32:43,519
Speaker 2: want to get to people for this episode, which is

1637
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 2: an article by a guy named Andrew Hwang at Bunny's Studios.

1638
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 2: Andrew is a computer scientist. He's got a doctorate in

1639
01:32:51,439 --> 01:32:55,640
Speaker 2: philosophy from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and kind of

1640
01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:58,639
Speaker 2: critically for some personal projects that he had done. Recently,

1641
01:32:59,040 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 2: he has manufied lectured his own lithium ion batteries, and

1642
01:33:03,439 --> 01:33:05,839
Speaker 2: in doing so, he's figured out like how to actually

1643
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 2: build a personal production line to make batteries like this

1644
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:13,320
Speaker 2: that you could customize to fit into kind of basically

1645
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:16,960
Speaker 2: any kind of electronic device you want. You can buy

1646
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:20,519
Speaker 2: an entire pouch cell production line that will allow you

1647
01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:25,120
Speaker 2: to make your own custom lithium ion batteries using Alibaba

1648
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:33,439
Speaker 2: dot Com. Yeah oh boy, Yeah, so that's great, right,

1649
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,720
Speaker 2: or lithi Yeah, these are lithium pouch batteries, and it

1650
01:33:37,040 --> 01:33:39,920
Speaker 2: costs about fifteen thousand dollars in order to be able

1651
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 2: to make somewhere between like a few dozen and several

1652
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:46,519
Speaker 2: hundred of these, right, So fifteen grand will provide you

1653
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:48,519
Speaker 2: with all of the materials you need to from the

1654
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 2: ground up make at least, you know, probably a couple

1655
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:53,240
Speaker 2: hundred pouch sell batteries.

1656
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:53,680
Speaker 8: Right.

1657
01:33:54,439 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 2: And it's the kind of thing where it's not just

1658
01:33:56,880 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 2: any idiot could do it, but any reason intelligent person

1659
01:34:01,520 --> 01:34:05,320
Speaker 2: with the degree of like experience and engineering can do it.

1660
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:05,840
Speaker 8: Right.

1661
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:09,000
Speaker 2: Andrew is obviously a very smart guy with a lot

1662
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:12,240
Speaker 2: of capabilities that you know, a layperson might not have.

1663
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:16,800
Speaker 2: But basically any kind of competent engineer could figure this

1664
01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:20,920
Speaker 2: out pretty much. And you're talking again, a few thousand

1665
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:23,840
Speaker 2: dollars to get potentially, you know, hundreds or even more

1666
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:26,439
Speaker 2: of these made. Now, the other side of the attack

1667
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:30,360
Speaker 2: here is that the Israelis created a bunch of shell companies.

1668
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:34,479
Speaker 2: You know, they started manufacturing copies of these walkie talkies

1669
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:37,959
Speaker 2: so that they could put their own explosives impregnated batteries

1670
01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 2: in them. And then they built a bunch of shady

1671
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 2: ass companies in order to sell them. This was effectively

1672
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:46,760
Speaker 2: what they were doing was creating like an Amazon like

1673
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 2: shipping company, right, and the same way that like anybody

1674
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:53,919
Speaker 2: who wanted to, can you know, get a business license

1675
01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:56,960
Speaker 2: and get access to like a bunch of electronics and

1676
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:59,880
Speaker 2: sell them on Amazon, like you could buy a consignment

1677
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:03,960
Speaker 2: of a thousand walkie talkies, make your own batteries for them,

1678
01:35:04,360 --> 01:35:07,439
Speaker 2: and sell them on Amazon. Amazon does not do a

1679
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 2: particularly like any really checking up on the people who

1680
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:13,800
Speaker 2: choose to sell through their site. And even if they

1681
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 2: were to do that, PETN is effectively impossible to find.

1682
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:19,280
Speaker 8: Right.

1683
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:21,680
Speaker 2: There is a way to scan for it, but it

1684
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:24,360
Speaker 2: takes like a half hour per package, and it's the

1685
01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:26,639
Speaker 2: kind of thing where even if you're taking this stuff apart,

1686
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 2: unless you have someone who is like doing chemical tests

1687
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:33,519
Speaker 2: on what's in there, anyone who's even someone who is

1688
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:36,360
Speaker 2: moderately trained, is not going to be able to recognize

1689
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:38,560
Speaker 2: a battery that's had some pet and put into it

1690
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:41,720
Speaker 2: from like a regular battery. So I'm going to read

1691
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 2: another quote from that New York Times article about how

1692
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 2: the Masad kind of structured the shell companies here that

1693
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 2: allowed them to pose as a company making pagers. By

1694
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:55,000
Speaker 2: all appearances, BAC Consulting was a Hungary based company that

1695
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:57,560
Speaker 2: was under contract to produce the devices on behalf of

1696
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:00,880
Speaker 2: a Taiwanese company, gold Apollo. In fact, it was part

1697
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:03,920
Speaker 2: of an Israeli front. According to three intelligence officers briefed

1698
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:08,000
Speaker 2: on the operation, BAC did take on ordinary clients, for

1699
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 2: which it produced a range of ordinary pages, but the

1700
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 2: only client that really mattered was Hesbelah, and its pages

1701
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:15,200
Speaker 2: were far from ordinary.

1702
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:18,720
Speaker 7: Why were hesblow using pages in the first place?

1703
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:19,840
Speaker 11: Oh, yeah, I can talk about that.

1704
01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:25,639
Speaker 10: Couldn't they afford it an iPhone? Great question or something? Well,

1705
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:27,479
Speaker 10: I think we'll let mea talk about that a second.

1706
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:29,280
Speaker 10: But gar I will say an initial response to that.

1707
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:31,840
Speaker 10: You know how like all of the activists in the

1708
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:34,559
Speaker 10: United States after twenty twenty especially are saying like, hey,

1709
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:38,000
Speaker 10: your phone isn't safe, don't use your phone, you know

1710
01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 10: for any kind of like actions.

1711
01:36:40,200 --> 01:36:42,600
Speaker 9: The state can listen in on that.

1712
01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well Hesbela has been paranoid about that for

1713
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 2: a long time, and the Masade actually has spent a

1714
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 2: lot of effort spreading rumors within Hesblah about how capable

1715
01:36:55,320 --> 01:36:59,519
Speaker 2: Israel's smartphone exploits are like how strong their ability to

1716
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:03,440
Speaker 2: like listen and on conversations, and that played a significant

1717
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:06,800
Speaker 2: role in changing like policy from the top and hes

1718
01:37:06,880 --> 01:37:08,320
Speaker 2: a lot to like we are going to use the

1719
01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:12,240
Speaker 2: lowest tech communications solutions possible, and we're going to talk

1720
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:12,960
Speaker 2: some more about that.

1721
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:14,679
Speaker 9: You know, it's not low tech.

1722
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:18,200
Speaker 7: These products and services that support this very podcast.

1723
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:22,000
Speaker 2: That's right, high tech and absolutely no explosives in them,

1724
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:24,519
Speaker 2: probably but really there would be no way to tell

1725
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:25,120
Speaker 2: if there were.

1726
01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:37,200
Speaker 9: And we're back Mia, you wanted to talk.

1727
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:37,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1728
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:39,320
Speaker 11: The only thing I want to mention about that is

1729
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:41,280
Speaker 11: so there's been a lot of focus in terms of

1730
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:44,720
Speaker 11: the page you use on like on Hesbela trying to

1731
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:49,040
Speaker 11: build this communications grid that's like more difficult to like

1732
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:52,240
Speaker 11: do to compromise, Yeah, yeah, we well to compromise from

1733
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 11: like digitally right. But the other thing that's kind of

1734
01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:57,880
Speaker 11: going on here that I think is getting a lot

1735
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 11: less attention is that Lebanon's economy has been an absolute

1736
01:38:02,360 --> 01:38:06,320
Speaker 11: shit show for probably like eight nine years now. There's

1737
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 11: a massive dollars front kind of.

1738
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:12,680
Speaker 2: The terminal like heart attack moment was that barge exploding,

1739
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:14,519
Speaker 2: but it had not been doing it had been on

1740
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:15,400
Speaker 2: the road down.

1741
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:17,599
Speaker 11: I mean there were there were, I mean there were

1742
01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:20,000
Speaker 11: there have been huge riots there over. So part of

1743
01:38:20,040 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 11: what's going on is like there aren't dollars in the economy,

1744
01:38:23,320 --> 01:38:26,320
Speaker 11: and this has made everything unbelievably expensive, and one of

1745
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 11: the things that's unbelievably expensive is phone calls, and so

1746
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:34,439
Speaker 11: there are I don't think there's been much coverage of this,

1747
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:37,599
Speaker 11: but it's like there's also just regular people also use

1748
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:39,920
Speaker 11: pages for things in order to set up what a

1749
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:42,400
Speaker 11: phone call is going to be, because if you're going

1750
01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:44,240
Speaker 11: to have a phone call with someone, you have to

1751
01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 11: make sure that both of you are like there. So

1752
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:52,880
Speaker 11: it's it's not purely just a military thing. It's also

1753
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:57,719
Speaker 11: just because of how unbelievably expensive like calling people has gotten,

1754
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:02,240
Speaker 11: and this sort of terminal crisis of the Lebanese economy

1755
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:05,160
Speaker 11: in the sense that like there aren't dollars to pay

1756
01:39:05,240 --> 01:39:07,479
Speaker 11: for things, and so we've gotten to this point where

1757
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:10,519
Speaker 11: even even sort of stuff that we consider like fairly

1758
01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:12,880
Speaker 11: basically not that expensive, like phone service, has just gotten

1759
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 11: unbelievably expensive for everyone. And this is sort of caused Yeah,

1760
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:20,599
Speaker 11: a lot of like regular people who have no affiliation

1761
01:39:20,720 --> 01:39:22,759
Speaker 11: with this whatsoever, to sort of move down the technology

1762
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:25,120
Speaker 11: chain because it's just expensive.

1763
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again it's this kind of perfect storm of

1764
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:33,920
Speaker 2: like paranoia and economics sort of factors colliding here. But

1765
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:38,719
Speaker 2: the sort of gist of it is Israel definitely wanted

1766
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 2: to push has a lot to adopting, Like they clearly

1767
01:39:42,439 --> 01:39:46,519
Speaker 2: had an understanding of what they could do and wanted

1768
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 2: deliberately to kind of push for this because it's a

1769
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,920
Speaker 2: lot easier to get some a manufactured explosive and it

1770
01:39:52,920 --> 01:39:54,519
Speaker 2: would have been a lot harder to do this with

1771
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:56,920
Speaker 2: like iPhones, right, Not that Israel hasn't done this with

1772
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,439
Speaker 2: cell phones in the past, sure, very famously. Back I

1773
01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 2: think it was the nine. There is this Palestinian man

1774
01:40:02,520 --> 01:40:05,840
Speaker 2: yahya Ayash, who was I think generally credited as like

1775
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:09,800
Speaker 2: kind of an architect of like car bombing attacks, who

1776
01:40:10,040 --> 01:40:12,960
Speaker 2: the Masad killed with a cell phone that they had

1777
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:14,920
Speaker 2: put it explosives in it. In that case, it was

1778
01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:18,320
Speaker 2: a very labor intensive process with a single phone meant

1779
01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:20,559
Speaker 2: to target and blow the head off of like one guy.

1780
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:24,519
Speaker 2: This is like a much more reckless and much more

1781
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:29,800
Speaker 2: like civilian casualty open operation. Again, I'm going to quote

1782
01:40:29,800 --> 01:40:33,439
Speaker 2: from that New York Times article in Lebanon's Baca Valley,

1783
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:36,479
Speaker 2: in the village of Sarain, one young girl, Fatima Abdullah,

1784
01:40:36,560 --> 01:40:38,360
Speaker 2: had just come home from her first day of fourth

1785
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:40,760
Speaker 2: grade when she heard her father's pager begin to beep.

1786
01:40:41,080 --> 01:40:43,320
Speaker 2: Her aunt said she picked up the device to bring

1787
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:45,200
Speaker 2: it to him and was holding it when it exploded,

1788
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:49,479
Speaker 2: killing her. Fatima was nine. It's probably worth noting here

1789
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:52,519
Speaker 2: that while HESBLA is a militant group, they are also

1790
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:56,479
Speaker 2: effectively the state in a decent chunk of Lebanon, and

1791
01:40:56,760 --> 01:40:58,960
Speaker 2: a lot of the folks who would have these because

1792
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 2: these these pagers and radios were generally seen as part

1793
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 2: of like a defensive measure, like if there is an attack,

1794
01:41:05,120 --> 01:41:08,439
Speaker 2: if we go to war again, these are our safe

1795
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:11,280
Speaker 2: comm system, right Like this is our like low tech

1796
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:13,599
Speaker 2: comm system to allow us to like stay in touch.

1797
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:16,000
Speaker 2: So a lot of these people would have been folks

1798
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 2: whose role was more on the social side of things

1799
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:21,240
Speaker 2: rather than like actual armed militants. You have no way

1800
01:41:21,240 --> 01:41:25,120
Speaker 2: of knowing who you're blowing up. Everyone's just getting these devices.

1801
01:41:25,800 --> 01:41:30,720
Speaker 2: And it's interesting to me that the Masad or that Netanyahu,

1802
01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:32,680
Speaker 2: because I'm sure this order had to have come from

1803
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:35,960
Speaker 2: the top gave the order to carry out this attack. Now,

1804
01:41:36,560 --> 01:41:39,479
Speaker 2: they had had these in place for a while. Exactly

1805
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:42,560
Speaker 2: when is a little bit unclear, but long enough that

1806
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:46,840
Speaker 2: there was like a nickname for the attack itself that

1807
01:41:46,920 --> 01:41:49,160
Speaker 2: everyone knew they were going to carry out at some point.

1808
01:41:49,880 --> 01:41:52,519
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit like, I wonder why this

1809
01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 2: was specifically targeted for this point in time. I kind

1810
01:41:55,439 --> 01:41:57,040
Speaker 2: of suspect it may have been due to the fact

1811
01:41:57,080 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 2: that Israel's actual like ground forces are still tied up

1812
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:02,840
Speaker 2: in Gaza, and so they were looking for a way

1813
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 2: to escalate with Lebanon, with Hesbelah that didn't necessitate the

1814
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 2: deployment of forces that you know, would still have a

1815
01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:15,280
Speaker 2: massive impact and be disruptive, which this certainly was. But

1816
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 2: you know, when it comes to kind of us and

1817
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:22,280
Speaker 2: like why we're talking about this today, it's the fact

1818
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:25,960
Speaker 2: that this is I think a Pandora's Box style attack,

1819
01:42:26,200 --> 01:42:29,240
Speaker 2: right like you have at this point opened up the

1820
01:42:29,360 --> 01:42:32,920
Speaker 2: possibility to doing this to any actor that has the resources,

1821
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:35,880
Speaker 2: and as we've noted about, fifteen grand will get you

1822
01:42:35,960 --> 01:42:39,559
Speaker 2: the capacity to manufacture battery packs like this. You can

1823
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:42,400
Speaker 2: just go on Ali Baba and buy things like radios

1824
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:44,240
Speaker 2: or there doesn't have to be that you could get

1825
01:42:44,520 --> 01:42:46,559
Speaker 2: you know, like most a lot of people now carry

1826
01:42:46,600 --> 01:42:50,599
Speaker 2: around battery devices, right, like external batteries to charge their

1827
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:53,479
Speaker 2: phones when they're out. Sure, you can purchase those from

1828
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:58,320
Speaker 2: Ali Baba by the thousand. You can disassemble them, stick

1829
01:42:58,400 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 2: in your own batteries, And it's not the kind of

1830
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:02,160
Speaker 2: thing where you have to be capable of doing this

1831
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:04,960
Speaker 2: on the scale that the Masade did. You could stick

1832
01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:08,080
Speaker 2: this and you could buy two thousand batteries. You could

1833
01:43:08,120 --> 01:43:10,799
Speaker 2: stick this in two hundred of them, your own replacement

1834
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:14,599
Speaker 2: explosive packs, and you could just send those out into

1835
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:17,839
Speaker 2: the world, right Especially. One of the things that scares

1836
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:19,600
Speaker 2: me is the idea of you get a bunch of

1837
01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:22,760
Speaker 2: these shipped get you impregnate a few with explosives, but

1838
01:43:22,840 --> 01:43:26,400
Speaker 2: you have a bunch of batteries that you then have

1839
01:43:26,720 --> 01:43:30,000
Speaker 2: on you know, shipping through the air right and trigger

1840
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 2: in the air like while they're being shipped to a destination.

1841
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 2: Like it's the kind of thing you would eventually be

1842
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:37,560
Speaker 2: able to unravel who had created the front companies and

1843
01:43:37,600 --> 01:43:39,960
Speaker 2: the like, But there really is nothing built into the

1844
01:43:40,120 --> 01:43:44,280
Speaker 2: system that would very effectively be able to tell that

1845
01:43:44,479 --> 01:43:46,560
Speaker 2: you'd done this as long as you there was a

1846
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:49,800
Speaker 2: degree of caretaken in the manufacturing process. And I want

1847
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:52,600
Speaker 2: to turn back to Andrew Hwang's article here, and this

1848
01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:54,760
Speaker 2: is him talking about the way in which you could

1849
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:57,679
Speaker 2: hide the fact that you had impregnated these battery packs

1850
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:00,879
Speaker 2: with explosives. Once folded into the core of the battery,

1851
01:44:00,960 --> 01:44:03,600
Speaker 2: it is sealed in an aluminum pouch. If the manufacturing

1852
01:44:03,680 --> 01:44:07,040
Speaker 2: process carefully isolates the folding line from the laminating line

1853
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:09,720
Speaker 2: and or rinses the outside of the pouch with acetone

1854
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:12,679
Speaker 2: to dissolve away any pet in residue prior to marking,

1855
01:44:13,120 --> 01:44:16,799
Speaker 2: no explosive residue can escape the pouch, thus defeating swabs

1856
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:19,519
Speaker 2: that look for chemical residue. It may also well evade

1857
01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:22,160
Speaker 2: methods such as X ray fluorescence because the elements that

1858
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 2: compose the battery separator and PETN are too similar and

1859
01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:28,280
Speaker 2: too light to be detected, and through case methods like

1860
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:33,240
Speaker 2: sours spatially offset Ramen spectroscopy would likely be defeated by

1861
01:44:33,240 --> 01:44:36,200
Speaker 2: the multi layer copper laminate structure of the battery itself,

1862
01:44:36,280 --> 01:44:39,479
Speaker 2: blocking light from probing inner layers. Thus, I would pose

1863
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 2: it that a lithium battery constructed with a pet in

1864
01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:45,760
Speaker 2: layer inside is largely undetectable. And this is from like

1865
01:44:46,120 --> 01:44:48,000
Speaker 2: folks I have talked to who have a degree of

1866
01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:51,920
Speaker 2: expertise in the matter. I think very accurate, and I think,

1867
01:44:52,040 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 2: you know, even if you're not striking air travel here

1868
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:57,400
Speaker 2: number one, it would be easy to get stuff like

1869
01:44:57,479 --> 01:44:59,800
Speaker 2: this on planes and people. There was in December some

1870
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:03,320
Speaker 2: somebody attempted to and just kind of their detonation method failed,

1871
01:45:04,080 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 2: which is kind of with explosives. When people don't die

1872
01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:10,679
Speaker 2: and explosive attacks, what always saves them is it's kind

1873
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:14,160
Speaker 2: of tricky to get the detonators right. But I'm very

1874
01:45:14,240 --> 01:45:17,720
Speaker 2: worried that the masade has effectively provided people with a

1875
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:21,400
Speaker 2: perfect plan of attack to fuck with air travel or

1876
01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:24,200
Speaker 2: to fuck with the supply lines, because it imagine, just

1877
01:45:24,360 --> 01:45:27,200
Speaker 2: like a couple hundred people over the space of a

1878
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:31,000
Speaker 2: week or so have battery packs or other electronics detonate

1879
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:33,439
Speaker 2: on their person, like or a couple of dozen people.

1880
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:37,160
Speaker 2: What that does both to the economy, to the supply lines,

1881
01:45:37,280 --> 01:45:40,080
Speaker 2: Like the extent to which that would be disruptive in

1882
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:44,599
Speaker 2: society is like, the potential is enormous, and the potential

1883
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:46,799
Speaker 2: for like runaway terror is enormous.

1884
01:45:47,280 --> 01:45:49,559
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean that was one of the first things

1885
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:52,160
Speaker 10: that we talked about once news of this drop is

1886
01:45:52,240 --> 01:45:55,680
Speaker 10: like beyond the actual like physical injuries and death caused

1887
01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:59,320
Speaker 10: by this attack, this is like primarily an infrastructure attack.

1888
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:03,920
Speaker 10: In this case completely destroys like the communications infrastructure of HESBLA.

1889
01:46:04,120 --> 01:46:06,720
Speaker 10: But in like, yeah, the strategy behind this attack, it

1890
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:09,759
Speaker 10: can be used just to target various types of infrastructure,

1891
01:46:09,760 --> 01:46:13,240
Speaker 10: whether that be like supply chains, travel, It puts distrust

1892
01:46:13,360 --> 01:46:16,560
Speaker 10: in your own equipment, and certainly it's application on like

1893
01:46:16,880 --> 01:46:20,040
Speaker 10: airlines is obviously very worrying.

1894
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:22,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's very worrying. And one of the things that

1895
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:25,040
Speaker 2: I keep thinking about is the degree to which the

1896
01:46:25,120 --> 01:46:29,120
Speaker 2: way Amazon has restructured the economy, and particularly the way

1897
01:46:29,160 --> 01:46:33,519
Speaker 2: that like digital commerce works, has created an opportunity for

1898
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:37,120
Speaker 2: a malicious actor to carry out an attack like this

1899
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:40,840
Speaker 2: with excellent security. Because you don't even have to be

1900
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:44,760
Speaker 2: the one shipping these out right. No, you can get

1901
01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:46,120
Speaker 2: I mean you have to shift them at some point,

1902
01:46:46,160 --> 01:46:47,960
Speaker 2: but you can ship them to a third party that

1903
01:46:48,120 --> 01:46:51,160
Speaker 2: is the actual company that deals with Amazon, if you

1904
01:46:51,280 --> 01:46:54,320
Speaker 2: have enough kind of resources and ingenuity behind it, basically

1905
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:56,439
Speaker 2: set up a drop shipping scam where you were having

1906
01:46:56,560 --> 01:47:00,880
Speaker 2: someone else send explosives to Amazon, which provides a lot

1907
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:04,040
Speaker 2: of opportunity for you to both get away and a

1908
01:47:04,080 --> 01:47:06,840
Speaker 2: lot of opportunity to you could seede with a couple

1909
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:09,120
Speaker 2: of different manufacturers, different devices.

1910
01:47:09,600 --> 01:47:12,800
Speaker 10: It's like terrorism in the era of the gig economy. Yeah,

1911
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:14,600
Speaker 10: And that was one of the reasons I like to

1912
01:47:15,040 --> 01:47:18,800
Speaker 10: Fincher's recent movie The Killer, Yeah, just in terms of

1913
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:21,679
Speaker 10: how much of the gig economy was like worked into

1914
01:47:22,040 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 10: these traditional industries, whether that be like terrorism, because hitmen

1915
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:27,639
Speaker 10: aren't really real.

1916
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:29,360
Speaker 7: But certainly terrorism is.

1917
01:47:30,000 --> 01:47:31,800
Speaker 10: And I think there's a lot of ways that these

1918
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:35,280
Speaker 10: things can be applied in this kind of bizarre uber

1919
01:47:35,479 --> 01:47:39,320
Speaker 10: Amazon world that we've created where the economy is just

1920
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:40,679
Speaker 10: so fractured in all these little ways.

1921
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:44,680
Speaker 11: There's also I think the sort of production angle to

1922
01:47:45,560 --> 01:47:49,240
Speaker 11: which is that because the way that manufacturing is happening

1923
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:52,000
Speaker 11: has become so decentralized and because it's become based on

1924
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:55,680
Speaker 11: these it's kind of less so now. But a lot

1925
01:47:55,720 --> 01:47:57,920
Speaker 11: of like Chinese manufacturing had worked like this, where you'd

1926
01:47:57,920 --> 01:48:01,320
Speaker 11: get these sort of like smaller pop up things, and

1927
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:04,799
Speaker 11: each of these sort of like fairly small like production

1928
01:48:04,960 --> 01:48:07,720
Speaker 11: facilities is like shipping stuff to like a larger one

1929
01:48:08,080 --> 01:48:10,519
Speaker 11: who's like doing assembly or whatever. But that means that Yeah,

1930
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:12,040
Speaker 11: like as you're saying with Alli Bob, it's like all

1931
01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:15,479
Speaker 11: of this stuff is just available to purchase because it's

1932
01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:18,640
Speaker 11: designed to be sold to these people who are like

1933
01:48:18,760 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 11: starting their sort of like small scale like production line.

1934
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:26,360
Speaker 10: Yeah, there's no quality control, there's no intense vetting. It's

1935
01:48:26,400 --> 01:48:30,320
Speaker 10: all extremely accessible. It's very easy to infiltrate this process.

1936
01:48:31,680 --> 01:48:34,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's another line from that Andro Huang article on

1937
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:38,440
Speaker 2: Bunny at Bunny's Studios, be you in an Ie Studios,

1938
01:48:38,920 --> 01:48:41,080
Speaker 2: which is his blog. You don't even have to go

1939
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:43,240
Speaker 2: so far as offering anyone a bribe or being a

1940
01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:46,320
Speaker 2: state level agency to get tampered batteries into a supply chain.

1941
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:49,040
Speaker 2: Anyone can buy a bunch of items from Amazon, swap

1942
01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:51,840
Speaker 2: out the batteries, restore the packaging and seals, and return

1943
01:48:51,880 --> 01:48:54,320
Speaker 2: the goods to the warehouse. And yes, there is already

1944
01:48:54,400 --> 01:48:58,000
Speaker 2: a whole industry devoted to copying packaging and security seals

1945
01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:00,880
Speaker 2: for the purpose of warranty fraud. The perpetrator will be

1946
01:49:00,960 --> 01:49:02,959
Speaker 2: long gone by the time the device is resold.

1947
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:06,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, and the other worrying part about that too is

1948
01:49:06,400 --> 01:49:09,360
Speaker 11: that you know, okay, so getting the explosives to work

1949
01:49:09,479 --> 01:49:12,640
Speaker 11: is kind of difficult, right, Like bomb making is not easy, but.

1950
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:14,479
Speaker 9: You have to have a degree of competence.

1951
01:49:14,520 --> 01:49:18,400
Speaker 11: Yes, but the actual cost fifteen thousand dollars like that,

1952
01:49:18,560 --> 01:49:20,920
Speaker 11: that's not even like you're looking at like a millionaire,

1953
01:49:21,240 --> 01:49:23,800
Speaker 11: Like that's just something your local dentist can afford to

1954
01:49:23,840 --> 01:49:24,280
Speaker 11: pull off.

1955
01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:27,439
Speaker 2: You could carry out an attack like this in terms

1956
01:49:27,479 --> 01:49:29,880
Speaker 2: of cash expenditure for the cost of like a reasonably

1957
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:34,639
Speaker 2: nice car, which is not prohibitive to a large scale

1958
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:36,600
Speaker 2: international terrorist organization.

1959
01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:39,960
Speaker 11: Or even just like a rich guy. Yeah, not even

1960
01:49:40,120 --> 01:49:43,000
Speaker 11: that rich guy can pull this off, yep, Which is.

1961
01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:45,880
Speaker 10: I guess the kind of the main inhibiting factor is

1962
01:49:46,040 --> 01:49:50,200
Speaker 10: we still don't quite know how Israel got these two detonates, yes,

1963
01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:54,280
Speaker 10: whether that is some sort of hack that overheated the battery,

1964
01:49:54,640 --> 01:49:56,840
Speaker 10: whether it was like a message that was sent out

1965
01:49:56,880 --> 01:49:58,480
Speaker 10: that like triggered something.

1966
01:49:58,240 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 7: Within the device.

1967
01:49:59,160 --> 01:50:01,120
Speaker 2: It seems to have been a message that mede the

1968
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:05,040
Speaker 2: explosive detonates, because they did send a message immediately before,

1969
01:50:05,640 --> 01:50:07,880
Speaker 2: so it seems to have been tied to some extent

1970
01:50:07,960 --> 01:50:11,080
Speaker 2: with a message. Andrew Hwang kind of looked into and

1971
01:50:11,400 --> 01:50:13,519
Speaker 2: came to the conclusion that you could very well do

1972
01:50:13,600 --> 01:50:16,640
Speaker 2: a thermal runaway to set this off, but obviously the

1973
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:19,760
Speaker 2: messade doesn't have any trouble getting a hold of military detonators.

1974
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:23,400
Speaker 2: Wang also walked through how you could build a circuit

1975
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:28,760
Speaker 2: into the actual battery itself, like a trigger circuit. You know,

1976
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:30,680
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go ahead, and I'm going to go

1977
01:50:30,680 --> 01:50:32,360
Speaker 2: ahead and talk about this a little bit when we

1978
01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:34,559
Speaker 2: come back, but let's do our second ad break now

1979
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:38,200
Speaker 2: before we tell everyone how to detonated plastic explosives.

1980
01:50:39,800 --> 01:50:42,400
Speaker 9: This is going to be the one that gets all arrested. Yeah,

1981
01:50:53,320 --> 01:50:54,120
Speaker 9: and we're back.

1982
01:50:54,439 --> 01:50:57,000
Speaker 2: Here's a quote from Andrew on how these might have

1983
01:50:57,080 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 2: been detonated. Detonating the pet in is a bit more tricky.

1984
01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:03,960
Speaker 2: Without a detonator, PETN may conflagrate burn fast instead of

1985
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:07,800
Speaker 2: detonating and creating the much more damaging shockwave. However, the

1986
01:51:07,840 --> 01:51:10,679
Speaker 2: Wikipedia page notes that an electric spark with an energy

1987
01:51:10,720 --> 01:51:13,400
Speaker 2: in the range of ten to sixty millidules is sufficient

1988
01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:17,040
Speaker 2: to initiate detonation. Based on available descriptions of the devices

1989
01:51:17,080 --> 01:51:20,000
Speaker 2: getting hot prior to detonation, one might suppose that detonation

1990
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:23,120
Speaker 2: is initiated by a trigger circuit shorting out the battery pack,

1991
01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 2: causing the internal polymer spacers to melt and eventually the

1992
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:30,400
Speaker 2: cathode anode pairs coming into contact, creating a spark. Such

1993
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:33,080
Speaker 2: a spark may furthermore be guaranteed across the pet in

1994
01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:35,880
Speaker 2: sheet by introducing a small defect, such as a slight

1995
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:39,320
Speaker 2: dimple in the surrounding cathode anoid layers. Once the packets

1996
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:41,639
Speaker 2: to the melting point of the spacers, the dimpled region

1997
01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:43,880
Speaker 2: is likely to connect, leading to a spark that then

1998
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:47,599
Speaker 2: detonates the PETN layer sandwich between the cathode and anode layers.

1999
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 2: But where do you hide this trigger circuit? It turns

2000
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:53,400
Speaker 2: out that almost every lithium polymer pack has a small

2001
01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:56,479
Speaker 2: circuit board embedded in it called the PCM or protection

2002
01:51:56,640 --> 01:52:01,000
Speaker 2: Circuit module. It contains a microcontroller, often in a tssop

2003
01:52:01,240 --> 01:52:04,120
Speaker 2: eight package, and at least one or more large transistors

2004
01:52:04,200 --> 01:52:06,280
Speaker 2: capable of handling the current capacity.

2005
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 9: Of the battery. And basically that's where you put it. Oops. Oops,

2006
01:52:12,360 --> 01:52:13,760
Speaker 9: and again I did talk to.

2007
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:17,120
Speaker 2: Someone with expertise and explosives who said that they thought

2008
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:20,560
Speaker 2: it was likelier that there was a conventional detonator, not

2009
01:52:20,760 --> 01:52:22,960
Speaker 2: because it would have been impossible to do with a

2010
01:52:23,040 --> 01:52:25,160
Speaker 2: thermal runway or the way that Andrew's set up, but

2011
01:52:25,240 --> 01:52:28,040
Speaker 2: because this is the masade, they have access to detonators,

2012
01:52:28,080 --> 01:52:32,400
Speaker 2: and a detonator guarantees that you get the proper kind

2013
01:52:32,439 --> 01:52:35,760
Speaker 2: of explosion. But again, even if you're using kind of

2014
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:39,880
Speaker 2: the less Gucci method here, that would be available to

2015
01:52:39,960 --> 01:52:43,040
Speaker 2: a non state actor. If only fifty out of the

2016
01:52:43,120 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 2: three hundred devices you impregnate with explosives do a proper

2017
01:52:46,120 --> 01:52:49,160
Speaker 2: explosion and the rest just kind of conflagrate, well, that's

2018
01:52:49,200 --> 01:52:51,959
Speaker 2: still a very successful attack. You can do a tremendous

2019
01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:54,320
Speaker 2: amount of damage to people's sense of well being, into

2020
01:52:54,400 --> 01:52:57,759
Speaker 2: the economy to supply lines by carrying out an attack

2021
01:52:57,880 --> 01:52:58,040
Speaker 2: like that.

2022
01:52:58,479 --> 01:53:01,760
Speaker 10: This is so terroristic nature and like if any other

2023
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:05,840
Speaker 10: group did this, like it has blood. Yeah, if homocitis attack.

2024
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:07,799
Speaker 9: Oh my god, we would be we would be bombing

2025
01:53:07,840 --> 01:53:08,679
Speaker 9: them right now. Yeah.

2026
01:53:09,280 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 10: If some like just random like accelerationist network somehow pulled

2027
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:15,040
Speaker 10: this off, like ye, we would be pully or hair out.

2028
01:53:15,320 --> 01:53:17,400
Speaker 7: We would we would like go to war over something

2029
01:53:17,479 --> 01:53:17,640
Speaker 7: like this.

2030
01:53:17,800 --> 01:53:19,840
Speaker 10: And the fact that it's like it's this type of

2031
01:53:19,840 --> 01:53:23,080
Speaker 10: attack is only okay when this one military does it

2032
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:24,960
Speaker 10: is just I don't.

2033
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:26,640
Speaker 7: Know what to do aniven, They've endangered.

2034
01:53:26,240 --> 01:53:30,000
Speaker 2: There, they have endangered everyone, right, Like, like every single

2035
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:32,760
Speaker 2: person listening to this is less safe because it is

2036
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:33,960
Speaker 2: reel carried out this attack.

2037
01:53:34,040 --> 01:53:36,360
Speaker 7: What is airport screening going to look like if this

2038
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:37,040
Speaker 7: keeps happening?

2039
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:37,519
Speaker 9: Importantly?

2040
01:53:37,520 --> 01:53:38,680
Speaker 2: Am I going to be able to take all of

2041
01:53:38,760 --> 01:53:40,920
Speaker 2: my batteries on the planes that I could play video

2042
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:42,360
Speaker 2: games on a fourteen hour flight?

2043
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 9: Garrison? You know, Yeah, the plugs in the seats don't

2044
01:53:45,520 --> 01:53:46,639
Speaker 9: always work well.

2045
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:48,160
Speaker 10: I mean, and even like what if you're able to

2046
01:53:48,200 --> 01:53:50,880
Speaker 10: do this to like the electronics of like the pilot jeez,

2047
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:52,880
Speaker 10: and then you just you just like take out an

2048
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:53,439
Speaker 10: entire airpa.

2049
01:53:53,560 --> 01:53:53,760
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2050
01:53:54,120 --> 01:53:56,640
Speaker 10: It's like it's such a fucked up Pandora's box that

2051
01:53:56,680 --> 01:53:58,680
Speaker 10: it feels like there's gonna be no real consequences for

2052
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:00,720
Speaker 10: which is just kind of yeah, things have been this

2053
01:54:00,760 --> 01:54:01,599
Speaker 10: past year, I guess.

2054
01:54:01,760 --> 01:54:01,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2055
01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:04,000
Speaker 11: And the other the other issue with it is that

2056
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:07,680
Speaker 11: like the only way to fix this would be an

2057
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:11,160
Speaker 11: actual like you would you would have to change how

2058
01:54:11,200 --> 01:54:13,479
Speaker 11: our supply chains work, and it's like, well, no one's

2059
01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:13,920
Speaker 11: gonna do that.

2060
01:54:14,120 --> 01:54:14,400
Speaker 7: No one.

2061
01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:17,759
Speaker 11: There is no number of people that you like, maybe

2062
01:54:17,840 --> 01:54:20,360
Speaker 11: if they literally killed the president of the United States,

2063
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:24,599
Speaker 11: maybe you could get enough political capital together to try

2064
01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:25,479
Speaker 11: to do something about it.

2065
01:54:25,560 --> 01:54:28,760
Speaker 2: But like, there's no way, no, and there's there's no way,

2066
01:54:28,920 --> 01:54:30,960
Speaker 2: and like the way the state will respond to this

2067
01:54:31,200 --> 01:54:34,320
Speaker 2: is by making air travel vastly worse. Right, Yeah, it's

2068
01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:36,120
Speaker 2: probably not the only thing that they will do. But

2069
01:54:36,240 --> 01:54:39,080
Speaker 2: that is like because there's just not an actual it's

2070
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:42,400
Speaker 2: not really with present technology, there's not an easy way

2071
01:54:42,720 --> 01:54:46,960
Speaker 2: to actually find these things, like within kind of the

2072
01:54:47,520 --> 01:54:50,080
Speaker 2: context of like air travel, or the way in which

2073
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:55,000
Speaker 2: like digital merchandising works, right, which is again why the

2074
01:54:55,080 --> 01:54:56,800
Speaker 2: Masad probably should have done this.

2075
01:54:57,400 --> 01:54:58,120
Speaker 7: What many reasons?

2076
01:54:58,240 --> 01:55:00,400
Speaker 9: What of many reasons, the dead kids being another.

2077
01:55:00,920 --> 01:55:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do want to conclude I've quoted a lot

2078
01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:09,800
Speaker 2: from Andrew Huang's wonderful article turning everyday gadgets into bombs

2079
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 2: is a bad idea, But I want to quote from

2080
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:17,120
Speaker 2: his conclusion here. Not all things that could exist should exist,

2081
01:55:17,280 --> 01:55:21,080
Speaker 2: and some ideas are better left unimplemented. Technology alone has

2082
01:55:21,120 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 2: no ethics. The difference between a patch and an exploit

2083
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:26,800
Speaker 2: is the method in which a technology is disclosed. Exploding

2084
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:29,600
Speaker 2: batteries have probably been conceived of and tested by spy

2085
01:55:29,680 --> 01:55:33,160
Speaker 2: agencies around the world, but never deployed en Moss because

2086
01:55:33,280 --> 01:55:35,640
Speaker 2: while it may achieve a tactical win, it is too

2087
01:55:35,720 --> 01:55:38,760
Speaker 2: easy for weaker adversaries to copy the idea and justify

2088
01:55:38,800 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 2: its redeployment in an asymmetric and devastating retaliation. However, now

2089
01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:44,960
Speaker 2: that I've seen it executed, I am left with the

2090
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:48,480
Speaker 2: terrifying realization that not only is it feasible, it's relatively

2091
01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:52,000
Speaker 2: easy for any modestly funded entity to implement. Not just

2092
01:55:52,080 --> 01:55:54,720
Speaker 2: our allies can do this. A wide cast of adversaries

2093
01:55:54,800 --> 01:55:57,400
Speaker 2: have this capability in their reach, from nation states to

2094
01:55:57,480 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 2: cartels and gangs to shady copycat battery factories just looking

2095
01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:04,000
Speaker 2: for a big payday. If chemical suppliers can moonlight and

2096
01:56:04,040 --> 01:56:07,880
Speaker 2: illicit drugs, what stops battery factories from dealing in bespoke munitions.

2097
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:10,600
Speaker 2: The bottom line is we should approach the public policy

2098
01:56:10,640 --> 01:56:13,280
Speaker 2: debate around this, assuming that someday we could be victims

2099
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:17,240
Speaker 2: of exploding batteries too. Turning everyday objects into fragmentation to

2100
01:56:17,280 --> 01:56:20,240
Speaker 2: grenades should be a crime, as it blurs the line

2101
01:56:20,480 --> 01:56:24,280
Speaker 2: between civilian and military technologies and that should be something

2102
01:56:24,360 --> 01:56:25,400
Speaker 2: everyone can agree on.

2103
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:30,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, I think I think so Jesus Christ just

2104
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:33,360
Speaker 10: as enacting terrorism through like the gig economy ecosystem. Yeah,

2105
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:36,080
Speaker 10: and oh boy, what a fun time we've we've built

2106
01:56:36,120 --> 01:56:36,680
Speaker 10: for ourselves.

2107
01:56:36,920 --> 01:56:38,520
Speaker 9: What a great fresh hell for us all.

2108
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:41,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, very excited first to have our first drop shipping

2109
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:43,200
Speaker 11: terrorist attack.

2110
01:56:43,280 --> 01:56:46,000
Speaker 3: It's going to be great. It's going to be it's

2111
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:46,600
Speaker 3: gonna be great.

2112
01:56:47,520 --> 01:56:47,760
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2113
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2114
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:50,880
Speaker 2: Anyway, folks, maybe drive next trip you got to take,

2115
01:56:52,200 --> 01:56:54,960
Speaker 2: probably should note before we come out here. The obvious question,

2116
01:56:55,120 --> 01:56:58,760
Speaker 2: and there's not a long answer to this for obvious reasons,

2117
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 2: is like, well, couldn't nonstate actor get their hands on

2118
01:57:01,480 --> 01:57:06,480
Speaker 2: PETN or RDX, you know these kind of explosive compounds

2119
01:57:06,520 --> 01:57:08,800
Speaker 2: that you can make into plastic explosives. And the short

2120
01:57:08,840 --> 01:57:13,080
Speaker 2: answer is yes, any moderately competent chemist with the right

2121
01:57:13,280 --> 01:57:15,640
Speaker 2: ingredients could make this stuff and they're not super hard

2122
01:57:15,720 --> 01:57:18,640
Speaker 2: to find. But also a lot of people in commercial

2123
01:57:18,720 --> 01:57:22,120
Speaker 2: spaces particularly have access to pet in. It's a kind

2124
01:57:22,160 --> 01:57:26,120
Speaker 2: of thing that like is commonently demolition, right, yeah, it's

2125
01:57:26,120 --> 01:57:29,040
Speaker 2: coming to demolition. It's also something artists use a good amount.

2126
01:57:29,160 --> 01:57:31,760
Speaker 2: There is a specific formulation of pet in where they

2127
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 2: make it like a thin sheet that you can use

2128
01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:38,600
Speaker 2: to suddenly weld metals together explosively. And there are a

2129
01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:42,320
Speaker 2: couple of specific famous artists who like use petn in

2130
01:57:42,480 --> 01:57:47,160
Speaker 2: order to like make bob relief sort of artworks. So

2131
01:57:47,280 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 2: it's again not something that is like impossible for people

2132
01:57:51,640 --> 01:57:53,320
Speaker 2: who are not the masade to gain access to.

2133
01:57:53,920 --> 01:57:56,880
Speaker 11: You need a chemist, an engineer, and someone who knows

2134
01:57:56,920 --> 01:57:58,720
Speaker 11: how to set up businesses. And between the three years

2135
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:00,280
Speaker 11: them they are going to have enough money to this,

2136
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:03,560
Speaker 11: which is yeah, not great, Yeah.

2137
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:07,400
Speaker 9: Not great. Anyway, everybody, have a good night, enjoy your

2138
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:08,120
Speaker 9: explain flight.

2139
01:58:29,080 --> 01:58:31,200
Speaker 7: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here in

2140
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:33,800
Speaker 7: your daily dose of the horrors that are in fact

2141
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:37,520
Speaker 7: already happening all around us. I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger,

2142
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:39,200
Speaker 7: and I am delighted to be joined today by the

2143
01:58:39,320 --> 01:58:44,280
Speaker 7: critically acclaimed author of Culture Warlords, journalist researcher, sword enthusiast,

2144
01:58:44,560 --> 01:58:48,680
Speaker 7: Sandwich expert, and my friend Talia Lavin. Hello.

2145
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:52,320
Speaker 12: Yeah, I once introduced myself at an event as a

2146
01:58:52,440 --> 01:58:56,920
Speaker 12: Sandwich historian, which I think was the pinnacle of my

2147
01:58:57,000 --> 01:58:58,320
Speaker 12: public speaking career.

2148
01:58:58,720 --> 01:59:02,040
Speaker 13: But this is the second Pinnacle. Hey, Molly, what's up.

2149
01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:04,400
Speaker 7: Thank you so much for coming on today to talk

2150
01:59:04,440 --> 01:59:08,080
Speaker 7: with me about your new book, Wild Faith, is coming

2151
01:59:08,120 --> 01:59:10,880
Speaker 7: out in just a few weeks October fifteenth.

2152
01:59:10,640 --> 01:59:13,840
Speaker 12: Right, yeah, Wild Faith, How the Christian Right is taking

2153
01:59:13,920 --> 01:59:17,840
Speaker 12: over America. Not the terrible b movie entitled Wild Faith.

2154
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:22,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, the SEO is scrambled on that one. But the book, however,

2155
01:59:22,560 --> 01:59:25,120
Speaker 7: is very good. I mean, first of all, I just

2156
01:59:25,160 --> 01:59:27,280
Speaker 7: want to say, like, so, I've been reading the Gally

2157
01:59:27,320 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 7: copy that you sent me, which I honestly made me

2158
01:59:29,280 --> 01:59:32,160
Speaker 7: feel very fancy. I've never received a Galli copy of

2159
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:34,080
Speaker 7: a book that's not out yet before, so I felt,

2160
01:59:34,160 --> 01:59:37,000
Speaker 7: you know, kind of a kind of a broadcasting professional

2161
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:38,640
Speaker 7: with my special book.

2162
01:59:38,960 --> 01:59:41,720
Speaker 12: It's an exclusive club. You're one of like five people

2163
01:59:41,840 --> 01:59:45,400
Speaker 12: thus read it. Oh my god, that that's very exclusive. Yeah,

2164
01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:48,120
Speaker 12: well it's about to become a lot less exclusive, So

2165
01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:49,240
Speaker 12: feel special while.

2166
01:59:49,040 --> 01:59:49,800
Speaker 4: You can, right.

2167
01:59:50,360 --> 01:59:51,880
Speaker 7: But I realized when I was reading it, you know,

2168
01:59:51,920 --> 01:59:54,480
Speaker 7: I have my little sticky tabs because I'm reading a

2169
01:59:54,520 --> 01:59:58,280
Speaker 7: lot more books lately. Regrettably, not not not big time

2170
01:59:58,320 --> 02:00:01,920
Speaker 7: book guy he's reading. I read a lot of court documents,

2171
02:00:01,960 --> 02:00:03,120
Speaker 7: but I'm reading a lot of books right now. For

2172
02:00:03,320 --> 02:00:05,800
Speaker 7: research for my show, and it's like my little sticky tabs,

2173
02:00:05,920 --> 02:00:09,640
Speaker 7: And as I'm reading it, I realize I'm not marking

2174
02:00:09,760 --> 02:00:11,720
Speaker 7: passages that I think would be useful for us to

2175
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:14,720
Speaker 7: talk about in this interview. I'm just putting my little

2176
02:00:14,760 --> 02:00:18,120
Speaker 7: tabs on passages that just like punched me in the gut,

2177
02:00:18,720 --> 02:00:18,920
Speaker 7: you know.

2178
02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:24,880
Speaker 12: Ah, sorry for punching you, no, but I mean, I

2179
02:00:25,000 --> 02:00:27,160
Speaker 12: mean with the way the power of your words, because

2180
02:00:27,200 --> 02:00:30,120
Speaker 12: like a lot of what I'm reading sucks.

2181
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:34,440
Speaker 7: It's just right Like I spent all day yesterday reading

2182
02:00:34,640 --> 02:00:38,120
Speaker 7: like twenty five year old Issues of Resistance, which was

2183
02:00:38,200 --> 02:00:43,360
Speaker 7: the quarterly magazine for a white power music label. So this,

2184
02:00:43,560 --> 02:00:45,840
Speaker 7: I mean it's a real departure, so you know, really

2185
02:00:46,040 --> 02:00:49,000
Speaker 7: just reveling in the richness of the pros and the

2186
02:00:49,040 --> 02:00:51,320
Speaker 7: fact that it, you know, didn't want to kill me.

2187
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:53,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2188
02:00:53,400 --> 02:00:57,280
Speaker 12: No, I also have experienced, you know, Nazi research fatigue,

2189
02:00:57,520 --> 02:01:01,280
Speaker 12: and also just like the sort of lentless grimness of

2190
02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 12: flowing through these like fundamentally hostile texts and also like

2191
02:01:05,840 --> 02:01:09,240
Speaker 12: academic texts, which are difficult in their own way. I

2192
02:01:09,400 --> 02:01:13,960
Speaker 12: try to write accessively or just like excitingly. I find

2193
02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:18,160
Speaker 12: that a lot of especially nonfiction sort of journalism me.

2194
02:01:19,480 --> 02:01:21,760
Speaker 12: Books tend to be a little dry, and I'm like,

2195
02:01:21,880 --> 02:01:26,000
Speaker 12: let's not be dry. Let's be like spicy and you know,

2196
02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:30,360
Speaker 12: like form and function, Like you're more likely to be

2197
02:01:30,480 --> 02:01:33,720
Speaker 12: moved by a message if you find the writing compelling.

2198
02:01:34,360 --> 02:01:36,680
Speaker 7: You know, it's just you have such a way with words.

2199
02:01:36,680 --> 02:01:37,280
Speaker 4: I mean, you know this.

2200
02:01:37,360 --> 02:01:39,680
Speaker 7: You're a professional writer. I don't want to embarrass you

2201
02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:40,200
Speaker 7: on the show.

2202
02:01:41,280 --> 02:01:45,040
Speaker 13: So I feel like I'm twirling my hair, like, yes,

2203
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 13: but I do write for a living.

2204
02:01:47,280 --> 02:01:49,400
Speaker 7: If you'll indulge me, if it's legal, if the publisher

2205
02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:51,720
Speaker 7: will allow this. I just want to read this passage

2206
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:53,920
Speaker 7: from the introduction that I think is a good jumping

2207
02:01:53,960 --> 02:01:55,320
Speaker 7: off point, and it was one of the first things

2208
02:01:55,360 --> 02:01:58,000
Speaker 7: I marked because I was just like, oh, hell yeah,

2209
02:01:58,080 --> 02:02:02,280
Speaker 7: we're getting into this. There's there's good words in here, okay.

2210
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:06,120
Speaker 7: The Christian Right is a force in American politics and

2211
02:02:06,240 --> 02:02:09,000
Speaker 7: has been for decades, half a century to be precise,

2212
02:02:09,440 --> 02:02:12,280
Speaker 7: during which it has steadily gained power. It started in

2213
02:02:12,360 --> 02:02:15,440
Speaker 7: school rooms, continued in courtrooms, and perseveres with the aid

2214
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:17,480
Speaker 7: of people who are perfectly willing to call in bomb

2215
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:21,520
Speaker 7: threats to hospitals and attempt to overturn elections. It features

2216
02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:25,040
Speaker 7: self proclaimed prophets with a distinct interest in politics, newly

2217
02:02:25,120 --> 02:02:28,200
Speaker 7: minted apostles with very definite ideas about spiritual battle and

2218
02:02:28,280 --> 02:02:31,360
Speaker 7: its earthly components, and pastors eager to usher in the

2219
02:02:31,440 --> 02:02:34,800
Speaker 7: end of the world. Its adherents have hymns and devotionals

2220
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:37,680
Speaker 7: and speaking tongues on occasion, and the showiest among them

2221
02:02:37,720 --> 02:02:40,360
Speaker 7: are known to march through cities, blowing Ram's horns in

2222
02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:43,280
Speaker 7: an effort to topple, as Joshua once did, the wicked

2223
02:02:43,400 --> 02:02:46,400
Speaker 7: cities of the world. They have their own insular world,

2224
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:49,640
Speaker 7: their own media apparatus. They have legislators who get fire

2225
02:02:49,720 --> 02:02:52,600
Speaker 7: in brimstone speeches from the badly carpeted rooms where laws

2226
02:02:52,640 --> 02:02:55,960
Speaker 7: are made. They have lawyers too, and in case the

2227
02:02:56,040 --> 02:03:00,600
Speaker 7: lawyers fail, there's always the promise of congregations that might

2228
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:05,760
Speaker 7: coalesce into mobs or arsonists. Who's burning holy zeal coalesces

2229
02:03:05,800 --> 02:03:11,080
Speaker 7: into the tiny pinpoint of a molotop cocktail. And I

2230
02:03:11,160 --> 02:03:15,080
Speaker 7: knew from the intro that we were in for a ride.

2231
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:19,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's like cast of characters, the worst people ever,

2232
02:03:19,640 --> 02:03:23,240
Speaker 12: but like, let's write about it in an exciting way.

2233
02:03:24,800 --> 02:03:26,959
Speaker 13: I think that one of the themes of the book.

2234
02:03:26,880 --> 02:03:31,960
Speaker 12: Is really how these extra legal extremist movements like the

2235
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:37,400
Speaker 12: anti abortion terror movement, and the legal framework of a

2236
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:41,920
Speaker 12: movement work together. I actually initially heard about this from

2237
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:44,720
Speaker 12: a friend who's talking about how like during the gay

2238
02:03:44,840 --> 02:03:47,680
Speaker 12: rights movement, you had sort of the act up built

2239
02:03:47,720 --> 02:03:50,280
Speaker 12: demonstrations that diants, and then you have the sort of

2240
02:03:50,400 --> 02:03:54,280
Speaker 12: like more respectively coded like gay people who you know,

2241
02:03:54,360 --> 02:03:57,320
Speaker 12: we're talking to the government and trying to get elected

2242
02:03:57,440 --> 02:03:59,680
Speaker 12: and you know, really trying to influence research and that

2243
02:03:59,760 --> 02:04:03,680
Speaker 12: ever movement needs sort of a radical outside and then

2244
02:04:03,720 --> 02:04:06,880
Speaker 12: a respectable inside. And I'm like, oh, this works in

2245
02:04:07,280 --> 02:04:12,040
Speaker 12: like the acratic movements too, where you have like this

2246
02:04:12,440 --> 02:04:15,960
Speaker 12: you know, fringe that's burning down clinics, and then people

2247
02:04:16,160 --> 02:04:20,280
Speaker 12: steadily working for fifty years to like ban abortion, and

2248
02:04:20,360 --> 02:04:23,320
Speaker 12: they have the same DNA and they have the same goals.

2249
02:04:23,880 --> 02:04:26,760
Speaker 12: They just go about it differently but complement each other.

2250
02:04:27,200 --> 02:04:29,760
Speaker 12: And I think that's like a running theme in the book,

2251
02:04:29,880 --> 02:04:33,560
Speaker 12: is that like you have lawyers and you have legislators,

2252
02:04:33,640 --> 02:04:36,680
Speaker 12: and then you have mobs and they're sort of all

2253
02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:41,000
Speaker 12: working towards the same goals. And that's really what we're seeing,

2254
02:04:41,080 --> 02:04:45,040
Speaker 12: I think on the Christian Right after decades of building power.

2255
02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:47,640
Speaker 7: Yeah. One of the notes that I wrote down in

2256
02:04:47,760 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 7: that vein while I was reading was that, you know,

2257
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:52,320
Speaker 7: the Christian Right drives its power across a spectrum, right

2258
02:04:52,400 --> 02:04:55,160
Speaker 7: from the clinic bomber to the senator. But it's not

2259
02:04:55,280 --> 02:04:56,800
Speaker 7: you know, you might say it's two sides of the

2260
02:04:56,800 --> 02:04:59,720
Speaker 7: same coin, but to me, it looks like this isn't

2261
02:04:59,760 --> 02:05:03,200
Speaker 7: too different spheres of power to sort of separate but

2262
02:05:03,320 --> 02:05:08,600
Speaker 7: coexisting or comorbid ideologies. They're just different numbers on the

2263
02:05:08,640 --> 02:05:11,400
Speaker 7: same dial. Right, it's turning up and turning down.

2264
02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:15,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's like the hand that lights the torch and

2265
02:05:16,040 --> 02:05:19,080
Speaker 12: the hand that puts it to the you know, pyre.

2266
02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:24,560
Speaker 12: They perform different functions, but they have really the same goals.

2267
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:30,680
Speaker 12: And if like me, you view stripping half the populace

2268
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:36,120
Speaker 12: of its bodily autonomy, imposing a theocracy, hounding queer people

2269
02:05:36,240 --> 02:05:42,960
Speaker 12: out of public life, slash into death as fundamentally violent goals, yeah,

2270
02:05:43,040 --> 02:05:47,120
Speaker 12: I don't think there's like a respectable iteration necessarily, there's

2271
02:05:47,280 --> 02:05:51,440
Speaker 12: just cosplaying respectability and right.

2272
02:05:51,480 --> 02:05:53,320
Speaker 7: You can say it with a tie on on the

2273
02:05:53,400 --> 02:05:56,160
Speaker 7: Senate floor, but it's it's the same message.

2274
02:05:55,840 --> 02:06:00,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I think so much of our mediaaratus and

2275
02:06:01,960 --> 02:06:06,680
Speaker 12: governmental apparatus is really sort of views like again, this

2276
02:06:06,840 --> 02:06:09,480
Speaker 12: like form and function, right, Like if you are if

2277
02:06:09,520 --> 02:06:13,680
Speaker 12: you say something politely, it doesn't really matter what you're saying,

2278
02:06:14,480 --> 02:06:17,240
Speaker 12: Like if you say something with a suit on in

2279
02:06:17,320 --> 02:06:20,400
Speaker 12: the register of like, you know, in a calm sort

2280
02:06:20,400 --> 02:06:24,720
Speaker 12: of Mike Penci and Rush Limbaugh and decaf as.

2281
02:06:24,600 --> 02:06:25,240
Speaker 13: He called himself.

2282
02:06:25,320 --> 02:06:27,080
Speaker 12: Boy, she says, did he say that, Yeah, that's what

2283
02:06:27,160 --> 02:06:28,640
Speaker 12: he called himself when he read it, did a like

2284
02:06:28,760 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 12: evangelical radio show.

2285
02:06:30,560 --> 02:06:30,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2286
02:06:30,880 --> 02:06:33,200
Speaker 12: No, no matter what you say, as long as you

2287
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:37,120
Speaker 12: are like white and you say it politely, like this

2288
02:06:37,280 --> 02:06:40,200
Speaker 12: is fundamentally sort of fine. And then if you look

2289
02:06:40,240 --> 02:06:42,600
Speaker 12: at it from you know, a step or two back,

2290
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:46,560
Speaker 12: and you're like, no, actually, no matter how politely say it,

2291
02:06:46,720 --> 02:06:52,440
Speaker 12: this is like a violent, deeply unpopular theocratic agenda that

2292
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:58,760
Speaker 12: like fundamentally is incompatible with multiracial democracy. I also think

2293
02:06:59,360 --> 02:07:03,040
Speaker 12: and running into this like well meaning liberals being like,

2294
02:07:03,080 --> 02:07:05,080
Speaker 12: but isn't there a separation of church and state? And

2295
02:07:05,080 --> 02:07:06,920
Speaker 12: I'm like, I don't know, do you fucking think there

2296
02:07:07,000 --> 02:07:09,960
Speaker 12: is in Alabama? Do you think there is an Arkansas?

2297
02:07:10,280 --> 02:07:14,520
Speaker 12: And all of these you know in Texas, Like all

2298
02:07:14,600 --> 02:07:17,240
Speaker 12: of these figures are like, we're Christians.

2299
02:07:17,280 --> 02:07:19,560
Speaker 13: We're making laws for Jesus, and.

2300
02:07:19,800 --> 02:07:21,920
Speaker 7: We have covenant marriages and we want you to too.

2301
02:07:22,480 --> 02:07:25,280
Speaker 12: Yeah, like we're gonna outlaw divorce because of God, and like,

2302
02:07:25,960 --> 02:07:29,520
Speaker 12: you know, women dying of sepsis in hospital parking lots

2303
02:07:29,640 --> 02:07:32,920
Speaker 12: is what Jesus wants and like, and I experienced this,

2304
02:07:33,280 --> 02:07:36,120
Speaker 12: I think you probably have to when you like report

2305
02:07:36,280 --> 02:07:42,480
Speaker 12: on you know, zealots and extremists, and people inevitably wind

2306
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:47,160
Speaker 12: up like measuring other people's weep by their own bushel.

2307
02:07:47,200 --> 02:07:49,960
Speaker 12: In other words, they're like, they can't really believe this stuff,

2308
02:07:50,040 --> 02:07:53,360
Speaker 12: and it's like, no, they really do. They can't really

2309
02:07:53,480 --> 02:07:55,920
Speaker 12: have these goals. First of all, they do, but also

2310
02:07:56,360 --> 02:07:59,120
Speaker 12: does it matter, right, I mean the question of like

2311
02:07:59,240 --> 02:08:02,240
Speaker 12: impact versus intent. First of all, I think it's perfectly

2312
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:04,880
Speaker 12: possible to be both a grifter and a true believer

2313
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:05,680
Speaker 12: at the same time.

2314
02:08:06,240 --> 02:08:08,160
Speaker 7: That's just synergy maybe Yeah.

2315
02:08:08,440 --> 02:08:13,280
Speaker 12: And also fundamentally, this is a world premise done grievance,

2316
02:08:13,480 --> 02:08:16,000
Speaker 12: where it's this idea that like the world has got

2317
02:08:16,040 --> 02:08:18,920
Speaker 12: one O, We're on you. And so in a sense,

2318
02:08:19,000 --> 02:08:21,960
Speaker 12: grift is just like, well, you know, the world's corrupt

2319
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:25,320
Speaker 12: and I'm fighting a righteous cause, So what does it

2320
02:08:25,440 --> 02:08:29,360
Speaker 12: matter the ethics that I sort of skip on along

2321
02:08:29,440 --> 02:08:29,720
Speaker 12: the way.

2322
02:08:30,280 --> 02:08:32,440
Speaker 7: I mean, once you've amped the stakes up to you're

2323
02:08:32,560 --> 02:08:35,680
Speaker 7: fighting the literal devil and everyone who's getting in my

2324
02:08:35,800 --> 02:08:39,800
Speaker 7: way is animated by actual demons from Hell. I mean,

2325
02:08:39,840 --> 02:08:42,040
Speaker 7: the steaks couldn't be higher. So you do what you

2326
02:08:42,160 --> 02:08:45,640
Speaker 7: have to do exactly, and it's this theory of power.

2327
02:08:45,680 --> 02:08:47,160
Speaker 7: And so then people sort of.

2328
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:50,680
Speaker 12: Standing outside of that paradigm who are not keyed into

2329
02:08:50,720 --> 02:08:53,840
Speaker 12: this idea of like we're in an ethical spiritual battle,

2330
02:08:54,160 --> 02:08:57,520
Speaker 12: like and we must create like a Kingdom of Christ

2331
02:08:57,640 --> 02:09:01,440
Speaker 12: on Earth in America to win again devil, and then

2332
02:09:01,480 --> 02:09:04,920
Speaker 12: people outside being like, you're hypocrites, and it's like it's

2333
02:09:05,000 --> 02:09:07,400
Speaker 12: not a valid criticism to them because they're like, first

2334
02:09:07,400 --> 02:09:11,080
Speaker 12: of all, you're not like a Christian if you're a liberal,

2335
02:09:11,160 --> 02:09:13,400
Speaker 12: but also like you're not on our level, like we're

2336
02:09:13,440 --> 02:09:16,840
Speaker 12: fighting Lucifer and you're probably.

2337
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:19,840
Speaker 13: A stand like on his team if you oppose us.

2338
02:09:19,880 --> 02:09:24,080
Speaker 12: So you know, a multitude of apparent hypocrisies can be

2339
02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:28,240
Speaker 12: excused by the idea that like this is a holy war,

2340
02:09:28,400 --> 02:09:33,560
Speaker 12: and in war, there's like all kinds of amart behavior

2341
02:09:33,600 --> 02:09:37,520
Speaker 12: that's OK, but doing holy war crimes, Yeah, exactly. I

2342
02:09:37,600 --> 02:09:39,520
Speaker 12: mean this is why, for example, you see a lot

2343
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:43,680
Speaker 12: of like prominent female figures from Philish slaughleet, you know,

2344
02:09:43,880 --> 02:09:46,920
Speaker 12: in the seventies and eighties to like the tradwives now,

2345
02:09:47,040 --> 02:09:49,640
Speaker 12: and it's like, how does this fit in with your

2346
02:09:49,720 --> 02:09:52,840
Speaker 12: overall sort of idea that women should be chaste and

2347
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:55,440
Speaker 12: submissive and meek and silent. I mean, first of all,

2348
02:09:55,520 --> 02:09:58,760
Speaker 12: tradwife stuff is often fetishish content.

2349
02:09:58,880 --> 02:10:02,520
Speaker 7: But yeah, I mean filish Filish made a living professionally

2350
02:10:02,760 --> 02:10:06,400
Speaker 7: saying that women shouldn't make a living professionally, but that

2351
02:10:06,520 --> 02:10:08,280
Speaker 7: contradiction doesn't matter.

2352
02:10:08,800 --> 02:10:11,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean I think I call them valkyries for

2353
02:10:11,800 --> 02:10:15,280
Speaker 12: feminine submission in the book. Yeah, I mean, at the

2354
02:10:15,360 --> 02:10:17,360
Speaker 12: end of the day, like if you believe that this

2355
02:10:17,600 --> 02:10:21,480
Speaker 12: is your your calling, your mission, you know, your mission

2356
02:10:21,560 --> 02:10:24,560
Speaker 12: field in the service of the Lord to undo the

2357
02:10:24,640 --> 02:10:28,120
Speaker 12: demonic sort of influence of feminism, Like of course you're

2358
02:10:28,160 --> 02:10:29,760
Speaker 12: going to speak.

2359
02:10:29,640 --> 02:10:31,840
Speaker 7: You've been moved by God to do so. Yeah.

2360
02:10:32,120 --> 02:10:36,680
Speaker 12: And of course, like female leaders with the evangelical community,

2361
02:10:37,280 --> 02:10:40,640
Speaker 12: like sort of minority Republicans can be like knocked off

2362
02:10:40,680 --> 02:10:44,120
Speaker 12: their pedestal quicker and easier, but like they still can

2363
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:47,800
Speaker 12: come out and exist and testify and schlafly throughout her

2364
02:10:48,640 --> 02:10:52,480
Speaker 12: very long prolific and lucrative career, you know, was like,

2365
02:10:52,600 --> 02:10:56,840
Speaker 12: I'm a housewife with six kids, and that was her.

2366
02:10:57,000 --> 02:10:59,160
Speaker 12: That was how she defined herself, even while being this

2367
02:10:59,240 --> 02:11:02,880
Speaker 12: incredibly proper and a figure and one of the sort

2368
02:11:02,920 --> 02:11:06,080
Speaker 12: of key architects of the current Christian right coalition of

2369
02:11:06,240 --> 02:11:11,200
Speaker 12: like right wing Catholics. She and Paul Lyric and Leonard

2370
02:11:11,280 --> 02:11:14,800
Speaker 12: Leo and some other right wing Catholics brought these Catholic

2371
02:11:15,040 --> 02:11:19,960
Speaker 12: values of being all about abortion to the evangelical right,

2372
02:11:20,040 --> 02:11:22,080
Speaker 12: which prior to the seventies is like, that's a weird

2373
02:11:22,120 --> 02:11:22,760
Speaker 12: Catholic thing.

2374
02:11:23,240 --> 02:11:24,520
Speaker 13: You don't really care I.

2375
02:11:24,560 --> 02:11:26,840
Speaker 7: Wanted to talk about that. So I'm not sure how

2376
02:11:26,960 --> 02:11:31,839
Speaker 7: sort of common knowledge this is, but the Protestant Christian

2377
02:11:31,920 --> 02:11:35,520
Speaker 7: community in the United States did not care about abortion

2378
02:11:35,760 --> 02:11:38,000
Speaker 7: until the seventies. It was not an issue in their communities.

2379
02:11:38,040 --> 02:11:40,920
Speaker 7: They were generally pro abortion. They were you know, the

2380
02:11:41,320 --> 02:11:43,240
Speaker 7: Baptists were in favor of Rob Wade.

2381
02:11:43,840 --> 02:11:46,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, the fucking Southern Baptist Convention came out in like

2382
02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:49,440
Speaker 12: seventy four. I think it was and was like, yeah,

2383
02:11:49,720 --> 02:11:51,080
Speaker 12: we approved Rob Wade.

2384
02:11:51,600 --> 02:11:54,000
Speaker 7: So it's not like, you know, opposition to abortion is

2385
02:11:54,320 --> 02:11:59,200
Speaker 7: baked into Christianity. It is baked into the American Evangelical

2386
02:11:59,320 --> 02:12:03,320
Speaker 7: Christianity of post nineteen seventy five or so because of

2387
02:12:03,360 --> 02:12:07,800
Speaker 7: this sort of conscious cynical political decision, And that I

2388
02:12:07,880 --> 02:12:10,600
Speaker 7: think is so interesting because you know, you get into

2389
02:12:10,680 --> 02:12:13,400
Speaker 7: this conversation of well, what are their deeply held beliefs

2390
02:12:13,480 --> 02:12:15,600
Speaker 7: and do they really believe it and does that matter?

2391
02:12:16,560 --> 02:12:19,640
Speaker 7: But we can pin down the moment they started believing

2392
02:12:19,720 --> 02:12:22,400
Speaker 7: this and we know why, and it's segregation.

2393
02:12:23,440 --> 02:12:26,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would say, like

2394
02:12:26,080 --> 02:12:29,720
Speaker 12: people can still like this is like several generations later

2395
02:12:29,920 --> 02:12:35,080
Speaker 12: of like constant barrages of extremely violent propaganda against abortion.

2396
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:38,480
Speaker 7: Right, so the belief is sincere today, but you could

2397
02:12:38,680 --> 02:12:41,760
Speaker 7: look at it where it was born. Yeah exactly, it

2398
02:12:41,760 --> 02:12:44,520
Speaker 7: should have been aborted, right, Yeah, no, it definitely should

2399
02:12:44,560 --> 02:12:47,360
Speaker 7: not have been carried to term. But like it's it's crazy.

2400
02:12:47,560 --> 02:12:52,040
Speaker 7: And in addition, Tomi's book Randall Bahmer does some really

2401
02:12:52,080 --> 02:12:52,880
Speaker 7: good coverage of this.

2402
02:12:53,760 --> 02:12:58,360
Speaker 12: So the sort of general arc is like three sort

2403
02:12:58,360 --> 02:13:04,240
Speaker 12: of nineteen seventy you had this like generally conservative population

2404
02:13:04,680 --> 02:13:09,280
Speaker 12: of Southern Baptists who were like on board with McCarthyism,

2405
02:13:09,400 --> 02:13:12,320
Speaker 12: hated the godless reds, but kind of viewed politics as

2406
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:17,000
Speaker 12: like worldly and not really their sphere, and we're not

2407
02:13:17,200 --> 02:13:21,200
Speaker 12: particularly politically engaged. And then brown versus a board of

2408
02:13:21,400 --> 02:13:28,640
Speaker 12: education passes immediately, the white Christian populist just disinvests these

2409
02:13:28,720 --> 02:13:32,080
Speaker 12: from the public schools, leaving multiple counties in the South

2410
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:37,720
Speaker 12: without functionally any public education at all. And this mushroom

2411
02:13:38,560 --> 02:13:43,840
Speaker 12: after rain, kind of like patch of patches of parochial

2412
02:13:43,920 --> 02:13:47,720
Speaker 12: schools with church or Christian in the name start popping up,

2413
02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:51,760
Speaker 12: and they're all white schools. Their segregation academies is the

2414
02:13:51,840 --> 02:13:55,080
Speaker 12: sort of term of art for these, and they're explicitly

2415
02:13:55,400 --> 02:13:59,960
Speaker 12: under a Christian agis they're religious schools. Their tax exams

2416
02:14:00,120 --> 02:14:03,800
Speaker 12: as a result, and then in like the late sixties

2417
02:14:03,920 --> 02:14:08,760
Speaker 12: and seventies, the government was like, you can't be tax

2418
02:14:08,840 --> 02:14:13,120
Speaker 12: exempt and like considered a charitable organization if you are

2419
02:14:13,840 --> 02:14:15,680
Speaker 12: segregated and don't have any.

2420
02:14:15,680 --> 02:14:17,839
Speaker 13: Black students or minority students.

2421
02:14:18,440 --> 02:14:22,000
Speaker 12: And that is what woke the sleeping dragon of the

2422
02:14:22,320 --> 02:14:25,680
Speaker 12: Christian right really like, you know, get your filthy government

2423
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:30,120
Speaker 12: hands off our tax exemptions. Like they just went, you know, nuts,

2424
02:14:30,200 --> 02:14:34,080
Speaker 12: they were really mobilized. You know, like these are the

2425
02:14:34,120 --> 02:14:36,960
Speaker 12: people who are like growing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, Like,

2426
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:40,520
Speaker 12: you know, they're really politically motivated for the first time

2427
02:14:41,160 --> 02:14:46,640
Speaker 12: because they're experiencing like a consequence for segregation. And so

2428
02:14:47,360 --> 02:14:52,160
Speaker 12: this is when like Jerry Fowell and Ralph Reid and

2429
02:14:53,320 --> 02:14:56,560
Speaker 12: you know, James Dobson start sort of coming forward and

2430
02:14:56,640 --> 02:14:57,400
Speaker 12: being more prominent.

2431
02:14:57,880 --> 02:15:01,880
Speaker 13: And then by the sort of mids seventies to eighties.

2432
02:15:01,560 --> 02:15:06,720
Speaker 12: You had these like savvy or political operators coming out

2433
02:15:06,760 --> 02:15:11,240
Speaker 12: and saying, hey, guys, segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

2434
02:15:11,560 --> 02:15:14,120
Speaker 12: Is Like it's great that it really fired y'all up,

2435
02:15:14,720 --> 02:15:17,520
Speaker 12: but it has sort of a limited appeal.

2436
02:15:17,920 --> 02:15:19,560
Speaker 7: And they shot George Wallace. It's over.

2437
02:15:20,120 --> 02:15:22,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, Like there's gonna be a ceiling on that, And

2438
02:15:22,960 --> 02:15:25,360
Speaker 12: a lot of people think you suck. So why don't

2439
02:15:25,360 --> 02:15:27,120
Speaker 12: you get it on the ground on this new civil

2440
02:15:27,200 --> 02:15:30,960
Speaker 12: rights struggle abortion where you can fight for the unborn

2441
02:15:31,120 --> 02:15:34,760
Speaker 12: who conveniently will never disagree with you.

2442
02:15:35,680 --> 02:15:37,520
Speaker 7: Right, their voices don't have to be centered here. We

2443
02:15:37,600 --> 02:15:38,520
Speaker 7: can speak for them.

2444
02:15:38,960 --> 02:15:43,040
Speaker 13: I mean, they're the most convenient political constituency in history.

2445
02:15:43,120 --> 02:15:46,520
Speaker 7: Right, because they're so innocent and you can't milkshake duck

2446
02:15:46,520 --> 02:15:47,880
Speaker 7: a fetus. He's not even here.

2447
02:15:48,400 --> 02:15:51,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, he can't talk, but he's not gonna say shit.

2448
02:16:03,200 --> 02:16:06,520
Speaker 12: So I mean that's like the very capsule history. And

2449
02:16:06,600 --> 02:16:08,640
Speaker 12: then of course it becomes this idea of like the

2450
02:16:08,760 --> 02:16:12,280
Speaker 12: moral majority and where the guardians of America's soul and

2451
02:16:12,320 --> 02:16:14,120
Speaker 12: we're gonna get really weird about sex.

2452
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:16,000
Speaker 13: Also, it's just.

2453
02:16:16,040 --> 02:16:18,320
Speaker 7: Like if you strip it all the way down to

2454
02:16:18,400 --> 02:16:21,440
Speaker 7: the studs, like the core of this is women are

2455
02:16:21,560 --> 02:16:24,680
Speaker 7: bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because Jerry Folwell

2456
02:16:24,760 --> 02:16:27,640
Speaker 7: didn't want to pay his taxes or stop being racist.

2457
02:16:28,400 --> 02:16:31,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean that's not fair.

2458
02:16:32,080 --> 02:16:35,800
Speaker 12: No, people sometimes like are a little skeptical when I'm like,

2459
02:16:35,920 --> 02:16:39,879
Speaker 12: all of the hatreds are interconnected. But then you look

2460
02:16:39,920 --> 02:16:43,520
Speaker 12: at like concrete historical examples of like this world historical

2461
02:16:43,600 --> 02:16:46,120
Speaker 12: wave of misogyny. I mean, it's not that this population

2462
02:16:46,360 --> 02:16:50,320
Speaker 12: wasn't like weird about sex or weird about women.

2463
02:16:50,320 --> 02:16:51,760
Speaker 7: Like to start with. I mean, maybe they would have

2464
02:16:51,800 --> 02:16:54,440
Speaker 7: gotten here a different way, but that's how we got here.

2465
02:16:54,840 --> 02:16:57,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, we got here by just like no, we will

2466
02:16:57,760 --> 02:17:03,880
Speaker 12: pay taxes on our segregation academies. Bob Jones University's interracial

2467
02:17:04,000 --> 02:17:09,160
Speaker 12: dating ban is perfectly great, and we're gonna mobilize about it.

2468
02:17:09,560 --> 02:17:12,280
Speaker 12: And so what you have then now is just like

2469
02:17:12,560 --> 02:17:16,959
Speaker 12: fifty years of political lock step because and you see this.

2470
02:17:17,040 --> 02:17:18,440
Speaker 13: In like other religious communities.

2471
02:17:18,480 --> 02:17:21,080
Speaker 12: I mean, like, I know, like it's sort of notorious

2472
02:17:21,120 --> 02:17:23,640
Speaker 12: how much corruption slides by in New York because like

2473
02:17:23,680 --> 02:17:26,800
Speaker 12: the Considic communities vote as a block, Like it is

2474
02:17:28,320 --> 02:17:31,680
Speaker 12: very useful to have a congregation that all votes the

2475
02:17:31,760 --> 02:17:34,080
Speaker 12: same way. It's politically useful.

2476
02:17:34,240 --> 02:17:37,280
Speaker 7: I mean, what other populations can you get together once

2477
02:17:37,320 --> 02:17:39,800
Speaker 7: a week as a captive audience and speak to with

2478
02:17:39,920 --> 02:17:42,200
Speaker 7: authority if you can mobilize those people. And that's what

2479
02:17:42,320 --> 02:17:44,800
Speaker 7: Jerry Folwell saw, right, is like this is a great

2480
02:17:44,879 --> 02:17:47,400
Speaker 7: way to get a lot of people to vote the

2481
02:17:47,440 --> 02:17:48,400
Speaker 7: way I want them to vote.

2482
02:17:49,040 --> 02:17:52,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, And you know, the church has always been like

2483
02:17:52,080 --> 02:17:56,360
Speaker 12: a really prominent institution in American civil society, especially as

2484
02:17:57,320 --> 02:18:01,240
Speaker 12: the rest of sort of civil society has fallen away

2485
02:18:01,440 --> 02:18:04,520
Speaker 12: and degraded. Like churches are some of the only social

2486
02:18:04,560 --> 02:18:07,840
Speaker 12: outlets that Americans have. And what's interesting when you talk

2487
02:18:07,920 --> 02:18:11,080
Speaker 12: to evangelicals and next evangelicals is just like being a

2488
02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:13,920
Speaker 12: Republican is like part of their religious identity in a

2489
02:18:14,000 --> 02:18:17,120
Speaker 12: major way. It's like this is how you vote, and

2490
02:18:17,240 --> 02:18:20,280
Speaker 12: this is you know, how you dress, and this is

2491
02:18:20,320 --> 02:18:23,280
Speaker 12: how you go to church and so on. But like

2492
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:25,760
Speaker 12: the idea of being a democrat is like not only

2493
02:18:26,680 --> 02:18:29,200
Speaker 12: you know, a little bit out of step with your community,

2494
02:18:29,280 --> 02:18:30,040
Speaker 12: it's heretical.

2495
02:18:30,200 --> 02:18:31,440
Speaker 7: I mean, that's how the demons give in.

2496
02:18:31,840 --> 02:18:35,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, demoncrats, I mean, and like, yeah, it's stupid.

2497
02:18:35,480 --> 02:18:38,400
Speaker 12: But it's also like half of the people saying demoncrats

2498
02:18:38,440 --> 02:18:41,320
Speaker 12: like literally mean democrats are aligned with Lucifer.

2499
02:18:41,720 --> 02:18:43,720
Speaker 7: And I think that's a point that I don't want

2500
02:18:43,840 --> 02:18:45,240
Speaker 7: to get lost on the listener.

2501
02:18:45,360 --> 02:18:45,400
Speaker 4: This.

2502
02:18:45,520 --> 02:18:49,640
Speaker 7: You know, this idea that people literally have demons in them,

2503
02:18:49,680 --> 02:18:51,920
Speaker 7: that demons are active in the world, that demons are

2504
02:18:52,160 --> 02:18:55,920
Speaker 7: motivating the actions of their enemies is real for them.

2505
02:18:56,320 --> 02:18:59,560
Speaker 7: And I'm not saying that to be derisive or you know,

2506
02:19:00,080 --> 02:19:03,560
Speaker 7: it's real. It's real. It is an animating factor for

2507
02:19:03,640 --> 02:19:06,560
Speaker 7: a lot of these people. And that's hard to wrap

2508
02:19:06,640 --> 02:19:07,360
Speaker 7: your mind around.

2509
02:19:07,959 --> 02:19:08,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I.

2510
02:19:08,920 --> 02:19:11,560
Speaker 7: Struggle with the idea that that is real for them.

2511
02:19:11,640 --> 02:19:13,840
Speaker 7: But like that's how you get things like satanic panic,

2512
02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:16,039
Speaker 7: and we see echoes of satanic panic in this idea

2513
02:19:16,080 --> 02:19:18,960
Speaker 7: of you know, groomers in kids' schools, they really have

2514
02:19:19,160 --> 02:19:23,720
Speaker 7: this fundamental, like foundational belief in this, you know, whether

2515
02:19:23,800 --> 02:19:25,840
Speaker 7: or not they're calling it demons, that the existence of

2516
02:19:25,920 --> 02:19:29,840
Speaker 7: some sort of ontological evil that is coming for their children.

2517
02:19:30,400 --> 02:19:32,160
Speaker 7: And like, once you arrive at the place where, like

2518
02:19:32,400 --> 02:19:34,720
Speaker 7: where you understand that that's real for them, their actions

2519
02:19:34,800 --> 02:19:37,160
Speaker 7: make more sense. Like they're not behaving irrationally if you

2520
02:19:37,520 --> 02:19:40,000
Speaker 7: if you truly believe that these things were happening, you'd

2521
02:19:40,040 --> 02:19:40,760
Speaker 7: act crazy too.

2522
02:19:41,600 --> 02:19:44,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to get people to

2523
02:19:44,680 --> 02:19:48,720
Speaker 12: step outside their own worldviews, and in both directions, right,

2524
02:19:48,920 --> 02:19:52,800
Speaker 12: Like I don't believe that demons are you know, abroad

2525
02:19:52,840 --> 02:19:56,240
Speaker 12: in the world and motivating like every element of political

2526
02:19:56,320 --> 02:19:57,560
Speaker 12: action to someone who.

2527
02:19:57,520 --> 02:20:00,119
Speaker 7: I'm starting to see them some places, but generally.

2528
02:20:01,320 --> 02:20:05,640
Speaker 12: To someone who does, my viewpoint is incomprehensible and vice versa.

2529
02:20:05,920 --> 02:20:08,320
Speaker 12: So I think part of I mean not that I'm

2530
02:20:08,360 --> 02:20:10,560
Speaker 12: like one of those people that's like polarization is the

2531
02:20:10,600 --> 02:20:13,760
Speaker 12: big problem, like you know, as opposed to anything with

2532
02:20:13,879 --> 02:20:17,520
Speaker 12: like concrete policy, like you know where it's like the

2533
02:20:17,600 --> 02:20:19,560
Speaker 12: big problem is we all don't like each other enough.

2534
02:20:19,600 --> 02:20:21,640
Speaker 12: And I'm like, no, the big problem is like people

2535
02:20:21,959 --> 02:20:25,520
Speaker 12: are espousing policies that will cause deaths, and like also

2536
02:20:25,600 --> 02:20:28,480
Speaker 12: that people like believe their political enemies are like literally

2537
02:20:28,600 --> 02:20:30,800
Speaker 12: agents of Satan. I would say, is like a bigger

2538
02:20:30,879 --> 02:20:34,640
Speaker 12: problem than polarization and the abstract. But yeah, I mean

2539
02:20:34,720 --> 02:20:38,000
Speaker 12: this this doctrine of sort of spiritual warfare, which if

2540
02:20:38,080 --> 02:20:40,080
Speaker 12: you like google it, it's just like, oh, this is

2541
02:20:40,160 --> 02:20:43,120
Speaker 12: the mindset and it's like you, the listener to it

2542
02:20:43,240 --> 02:20:45,640
Speaker 12: could happen here, like you've been drafted into the spirit

2543
02:20:45,760 --> 02:20:46,959
Speaker 12: war from like birth.

2544
02:20:47,800 --> 02:20:50,240
Speaker 7: Congratulations, private, and you're.

2545
02:20:50,160 --> 02:20:53,240
Speaker 12: Probably in the side of the devil, so good job.

2546
02:20:53,560 --> 02:20:56,199
Speaker 12: I mean, I don't know, like a lot of Americans

2547
02:20:56,280 --> 02:20:59,280
Speaker 12: believe in angels and demons and that's fine, but it's

2548
02:20:59,320 --> 02:21:03,280
Speaker 12: like when starts impinging on the political sphere in a

2549
02:21:03,400 --> 02:21:05,480
Speaker 12: very serious way, It's like, how far would you go

2550
02:21:06,440 --> 02:21:10,680
Speaker 12: if you believed your opponent was under the thrall of

2551
02:21:10,800 --> 02:21:11,400
Speaker 12: like Satan?

2552
02:21:11,840 --> 02:21:15,439
Speaker 13: You would go pretty damn far's.

2553
02:21:14,160 --> 02:21:16,760
Speaker 7: I mean that's why you know clinic bombings were and

2554
02:21:16,959 --> 02:21:18,840
Speaker 7: I guess are on the rise again, right, like these

2555
02:21:18,959 --> 02:21:22,600
Speaker 7: arsins of clinics. It's not like other kinds of crime

2556
02:21:22,800 --> 02:21:25,680
Speaker 7: in my mind, right, it's not a crime of passion

2557
02:21:25,800 --> 02:21:28,960
Speaker 7: or an interpersonal dispute. It is people who have been

2558
02:21:29,240 --> 02:21:32,240
Speaker 7: motivated by this belief that this is a place where

2559
02:21:32,320 --> 02:21:34,640
Speaker 7: a genocide is happening, that there's a holocaust going on

2560
02:21:34,720 --> 02:21:37,560
Speaker 7: in there, that people are ripping you know, actual living

2561
02:21:37,640 --> 02:21:39,800
Speaker 7: babies limb from limb, and if you really did believe that,

2562
02:21:40,600 --> 02:21:43,240
Speaker 7: their actions make sense, and that's why it happens so often, right,

2563
02:21:43,280 --> 02:21:46,320
Speaker 7: because these people are motivated by this belief that God

2564
02:21:46,440 --> 02:21:47,880
Speaker 7: commands them to take this action.

2565
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:51,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean there's your dual element to that. I mean,

2566
02:21:51,640 --> 02:21:54,119
Speaker 12: first of all, absolutely, yes, Like I've read some anti

2567
02:21:54,200 --> 02:21:58,080
Speaker 12: abortion terror manuals speaking of extremely unpleasant research, and it's

2568
02:21:58,160 --> 02:22:03,000
Speaker 12: just really like these people are murderers. It's mass murderers,

2569
02:22:03,120 --> 02:22:05,199
Speaker 12: Like you're like killing Hitler, right.

2570
02:22:05,400 --> 02:22:07,480
Speaker 7: And wouldn't you wouldn't you kill baby Hitler?

2571
02:22:07,879 --> 02:22:08,240
Speaker 13: Exactly?

2572
02:22:08,840 --> 02:22:13,200
Speaker 12: Poltical about baby Hitler in like a countrywide scale. And

2573
02:22:14,560 --> 02:22:18,040
Speaker 12: when specific abortion doctors have been mentioned in right wing media,

2574
02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:21,080
Speaker 12: those guys end up dead and that's not a coincidence.

2575
02:22:21,160 --> 02:22:24,040
Speaker 12: So there's there's that element of it, which is the

2576
02:22:24,160 --> 02:22:24,760
Speaker 12: majority of it.

2577
02:22:24,800 --> 02:22:25,240
Speaker 13: It's huge.

2578
02:22:25,240 --> 02:22:29,240
Speaker 12: But there's also this idea of demonic geography, where like

2579
02:22:29,840 --> 02:22:33,120
Speaker 12: demons can possess sort of places like abortion clinics or

2580
02:22:33,600 --> 02:22:38,560
Speaker 12: institutions like Planned parenthood or even the Democratic Party, which

2581
02:22:38,680 --> 02:22:42,480
Speaker 12: you know, I read a lot of demonology books, like

2582
02:22:43,360 --> 02:22:47,200
Speaker 12: Taxonomies of Demons. Pigs in the Parlor was this really

2583
02:22:47,240 --> 02:22:49,360
Speaker 12: big hit in like the seventies, and it's been like

2584
02:22:49,480 --> 02:22:52,240
Speaker 12: reissued and reissued and millions of copies, and it's just like,

2585
02:22:52,920 --> 02:22:55,640
Speaker 12: on one level, it's really compelling because it's like, are

2586
02:22:55,720 --> 02:23:00,120
Speaker 12: you tired, are you sad, are you feeling clumsy? You

2587
02:23:00,200 --> 02:23:03,640
Speaker 12: have like persistent stomach aches. It's demons and here's how

2588
02:23:03,680 --> 02:23:06,000
Speaker 12: you deal with that. And like, in a country with

2589
02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:10,520
Speaker 12: shitty healthcare, I can totally see why someone who's like

2590
02:23:10,680 --> 02:23:15,000
Speaker 12: really depressed might go to like an exorcist or a

2591
02:23:15,080 --> 02:23:17,600
Speaker 12: deliverance minister, which is the Protestant if.

2592
02:23:17,480 --> 02:23:19,480
Speaker 7: You'll try anything, and this guy's going to do it

2593
02:23:19,560 --> 02:23:19,920
Speaker 7: for free.

2594
02:23:20,600 --> 02:23:24,200
Speaker 12: I watch so many videos of deliverance ministers doing their thing,

2595
02:23:24,320 --> 02:23:27,360
Speaker 12: and it's like crazy. It's like people you know, are

2596
02:23:27,480 --> 02:23:30,480
Speaker 12: just like sitting there and they're like people praying over

2597
02:23:30,560 --> 02:23:33,800
Speaker 12: them and screaming in their face, like and they wind

2598
02:23:33,879 --> 02:23:36,840
Speaker 12: up vomiting and crying and it's all very like intense.

2599
02:23:36,920 --> 02:23:39,400
Speaker 12: And you know, if you think about it from a

2600
02:23:39,480 --> 02:23:42,760
Speaker 12: placebo effect perspective. For like one second, you're like, obviously

2601
02:23:42,879 --> 02:23:46,480
Speaker 12: this person would feel a weightlifted from them. They've had

2602
02:23:46,520 --> 02:23:50,280
Speaker 12: this ecstatic experience. And this isn't the majority of it.

2603
02:23:50,760 --> 02:23:53,959
Speaker 12: This is about fourteen percent of America identifies this as

2604
02:23:54,000 --> 02:23:57,680
Speaker 12: white evengels so many Protestants, and it's still so many

2605
02:23:57,760 --> 02:24:00,800
Speaker 12: people because people keep asking me, like how many people

2606
02:24:00,879 --> 02:24:03,480
Speaker 12: really believe should like this, and I'm like, well, about

2607
02:24:03,800 --> 02:24:06,480
Speaker 12: eighty to ninety percent of like people who identify as

2608
02:24:06,520 --> 02:24:10,640
Speaker 12: might evangelical Protestants vows most of these beliefs. So that's like,

2609
02:24:11,000 --> 02:24:13,920
Speaker 12: that's like thirty million people. Yeah, yeah, And then you

2610
02:24:14,040 --> 02:24:15,760
Speaker 12: add in the Catholic right, which is.

2611
02:24:15,760 --> 02:24:17,039
Speaker 7: Getting weirder every day.

2612
02:24:17,480 --> 02:24:17,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2613
02:24:17,840 --> 02:24:23,320
Speaker 12: JD Vance, I hate women exist to reproduce, breathe you

2614
02:24:23,440 --> 02:24:27,200
Speaker 12: filthy sow. But like, even beyond the adult Catholic convert

2615
02:24:27,560 --> 02:24:31,480
Speaker 12: style weirdness, like right wing Catholics are an integral part

2616
02:24:31,520 --> 02:24:35,440
Speaker 12: of the Christian right, like Amy Cony Barrett, you know,

2617
02:24:35,959 --> 02:24:40,480
Speaker 12: antonin Scalia, that kind of thing. That's another bunch of millions.

2618
02:24:41,040 --> 02:24:46,520
Speaker 12: So this reactionary force has like numerically significant constituency. On

2619
02:24:46,640 --> 02:24:50,560
Speaker 12: the other hand, it definitely punches way above its weight

2620
02:24:50,720 --> 02:24:51,680
Speaker 12: in terms of right.

2621
02:24:51,720 --> 02:24:55,920
Speaker 7: They have an outsized influence of both you know, on

2622
02:24:56,000 --> 02:24:58,720
Speaker 7: the legislative floor and when it comes to you know

2623
02:24:59,040 --> 02:24:59,920
Speaker 7: who's racking up the most.

2624
02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:04,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, and also even like the culture wars right, like

2625
02:25:04,760 --> 02:25:09,960
Speaker 12: the sort of loudest culture warriors tend to at least

2626
02:25:10,000 --> 02:25:13,640
Speaker 12: come from like a background of I'm speaking for God

2627
02:25:13,840 --> 02:25:16,000
Speaker 12: or Christ is King or whatever it is, Like how

2628
02:25:16,040 --> 02:25:18,800
Speaker 12: many times have you and I encountered that an extremist

2629
02:25:19,040 --> 02:25:22,360
Speaker 12: contacts But also like the sort of more mainstream me,

2630
02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:25,840
Speaker 12: What the fuck the mainstream is? I don't know, it's

2631
02:25:25,840 --> 02:25:28,280
Speaker 12: full of piss, But like the more mainstream me, like

2632
02:25:28,360 --> 02:25:31,600
Speaker 12: Christian grifter, right, they come from this this I'm speaking

2633
02:25:31,640 --> 02:25:35,080
Speaker 12: from my faith. These are my religious principles. But like

2634
02:25:35,600 --> 02:25:38,480
Speaker 12: it is with noting again, just just to rewind in

2635
02:25:38,520 --> 02:25:42,600
Speaker 12: our conversation, but like the whole concept of religious liberty

2636
02:25:42,959 --> 02:25:47,320
Speaker 12: and religious freedom absolutely was like an ad slogan coined

2637
02:25:47,440 --> 02:25:50,560
Speaker 12: in the seventies around segregation.

2638
02:25:50,320 --> 02:25:52,520
Speaker 7: Right, religious freedom to do what I mean, it's like

2639
02:25:52,600 --> 02:25:55,320
Speaker 7: states rights, states rights to do what right?

2640
02:25:55,480 --> 02:25:59,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, Like you answer the question, yeah, it's it's religious

2641
02:25:59,160 --> 02:26:02,279
Speaker 12: freedom to have segregated schools, is the answer.

2642
02:26:02,080 --> 02:26:04,000
Speaker 7: To that, And you still see echoes of that with

2643
02:26:04,160 --> 02:26:08,119
Speaker 7: either still religious schools that can't accept federal grant money

2644
02:26:08,200 --> 02:26:11,160
Speaker 7: because they don't let students be gay, right, Like it's

2645
02:26:11,240 --> 02:26:15,440
Speaker 7: not racial segregation anymore, but they are refusing to admit

2646
02:26:15,640 --> 02:26:18,959
Speaker 7: gay students and that is a violation of federal civil

2647
02:26:19,040 --> 02:26:19,440
Speaker 7: rights law.

2648
02:26:19,920 --> 02:26:22,760
Speaker 12: Yeah, but that's where I mean, that's where that stillgan started.

2649
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:25,360
Speaker 12: And then it's blossomed to include basically like a gay

2650
02:26:25,440 --> 02:26:27,720
Speaker 12: person came into my shop.

2651
02:26:27,879 --> 02:26:31,360
Speaker 7: Except they didn't, right, I know, there's no standing, right,

2652
02:26:31,480 --> 02:26:33,160
Speaker 7: Like that whole case was built a lie.

2653
02:26:33,440 --> 02:26:33,720
Speaker 1: Whatever.

2654
02:26:33,879 --> 02:26:37,480
Speaker 12: That's yeah, but it's like and the standing in the

2655
02:26:37,560 --> 02:26:40,879
Speaker 12: Supreme Court is so ridiculous. This, I mean, in many ways,

2656
02:26:41,000 --> 02:26:44,840
Speaker 12: this Supreme Court is the culmination and embodiment and apotheosis

2657
02:26:44,879 --> 02:26:47,480
Speaker 12: of like Christian right theocracy because you have these like

2658
02:26:48,080 --> 02:26:51,320
Speaker 12: absolutely bat shit religious zealots. I mean, Amy Cony Barrett

2659
02:26:51,440 --> 02:26:55,200
Speaker 12: is like from a cult, and in this unaccountable body,

2660
02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:59,560
Speaker 12: they're passing unpopular theocratic principles that the majority of the

2661
02:26:59,600 --> 02:27:03,640
Speaker 12: America public uh disagrees with. But like specifically what they

2662
02:27:03,680 --> 02:27:05,800
Speaker 12: are trying to enact and what they are what they

2663
02:27:05,879 --> 02:27:10,600
Speaker 12: are enacting is this theogratic agenda, where like the government

2664
02:27:10,720 --> 02:27:14,240
Speaker 12: is in your bedroom. The government is in your doctor's office,

2665
02:27:14,360 --> 02:27:18,039
Speaker 12: Like the government is sniffing your panties, and it's it's

2666
02:27:18,200 --> 02:27:22,680
Speaker 12: gross and it's upsetting and fundamentally, like theocracies are just

2667
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:26,720
Speaker 12: very famously all up in your junk, Like they're obsessed

2668
02:27:26,760 --> 02:27:30,280
Speaker 12: with like controlling and censoring sexuality of all kinds of

2669
02:27:30,280 --> 02:27:34,800
Speaker 12: but particularly female sexuality and queer sexuality, like sniff those out.

2670
02:27:35,320 --> 02:27:39,640
Speaker 12: And so that's part of the reason why so many

2671
02:27:40,400 --> 02:27:43,640
Speaker 12: abortion arguments, Like, first of all, you have the like

2672
02:27:43,760 --> 02:27:47,360
Speaker 12: the you're murdering this cluster of cells, which is a

2673
02:27:47,560 --> 02:27:50,480
Speaker 12: full human baby. Like do you remember that article in

2674
02:27:50,520 --> 02:27:52,480
Speaker 12: The Guardian a couple of years ago that like showed

2675
02:27:52,520 --> 02:27:56,320
Speaker 12: the actual size of like fetuses at various stages of development,

2676
02:27:56,400 --> 02:27:57,760
Speaker 12: and it was like they were.

2677
02:27:57,720 --> 02:28:01,200
Speaker 7: Just like so little, like these little like little fingernails. Yeah,

2678
02:28:01,280 --> 02:28:03,480
Speaker 7: and it doesn't look like a tiny baby doll. That's

2679
02:28:03,600 --> 02:28:06,440
Speaker 7: just very small. Yeah, exactly, it's not like a mini

2680
02:28:06,520 --> 02:28:10,080
Speaker 7: baby like it like tides of gore. It's like literally

2681
02:28:10,240 --> 02:28:14,840
Speaker 7: like a tiny cluster of cells. So the anti abortion propaganda,

2682
02:28:15,440 --> 02:28:17,760
Speaker 7: like you are not immune to propaganda. It has like

2683
02:28:17,879 --> 02:28:21,360
Speaker 7: wormed its way into the popular consciousness just by virtue

2684
02:28:21,400 --> 02:28:25,240
Speaker 7: of its ubiquity and constant repetition being the key to

2685
02:28:25,680 --> 02:28:28,959
Speaker 7: successful propaganda. But so many of these arguments in addition

2686
02:28:29,040 --> 02:28:33,040
Speaker 7: to this this abortion is murder stuff is also just

2687
02:28:33,080 --> 02:28:35,280
Speaker 7: like you should have kept your legs closed, right, This

2688
02:28:35,400 --> 02:28:37,960
Speaker 7: is a this is a consequence, God did this to you.

2689
02:28:38,520 --> 02:28:41,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, Like sex for your sins a mortal sin and

2690
02:28:41,879 --> 02:28:43,240
Speaker 12: sex should be punished, and.

2691
02:28:43,600 --> 02:28:44,840
Speaker 7: I they must be doing it wrong.

2692
02:28:46,000 --> 02:28:48,400
Speaker 12: Like, I'm like, why do you want sex to have

2693
02:28:48,680 --> 02:28:53,840
Speaker 12: consequences and be punished? The like intensity of the misogyny

2694
02:28:53,879 --> 02:28:55,600
Speaker 12: around purity culture is so intense.

2695
02:29:06,760 --> 02:29:08,520
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask you, you know, about the experience

2696
02:29:08,600 --> 02:29:10,680
Speaker 7: of writing the book, right, So you know, your first book,

2697
02:29:10,680 --> 02:29:15,200
Speaker 7: Culture Warlords, was traumatizing for you to craft, right, because

2698
02:29:15,240 --> 02:29:18,160
Speaker 7: you had to spend so much time in these digital

2699
02:29:18,200 --> 02:29:22,080
Speaker 7: spaces in some in some cases physical spaces with you know,

2700
02:29:22,400 --> 02:29:26,680
Speaker 7: neo Nazis, four Chan guys, you know, aspiring terrorists, and

2701
02:29:26,760 --> 02:29:30,560
Speaker 7: so that's traumatic to experience, you know. But largely that

2702
02:29:30,640 --> 02:29:33,520
Speaker 7: experience was alone, like at your computer screen, sort of

2703
02:29:33,600 --> 02:29:37,360
Speaker 7: consuming this content that was eroding your soul. But the

2704
02:29:37,440 --> 02:29:41,840
Speaker 7: second half of this book is about child abuse, right,

2705
02:29:41,959 --> 02:29:46,119
Speaker 7: and you interviewed people who grew up in this movement

2706
02:29:46,320 --> 02:29:49,600
Speaker 7: about their lives, about their husband's raping them and their

2707
02:29:49,640 --> 02:29:56,560
Speaker 7: parents beating them as children, and like how did those

2708
02:29:56,600 --> 02:29:57,600
Speaker 7: experiences compare?

2709
02:29:57,640 --> 02:29:58,280
Speaker 3: And like what was that?

2710
02:29:59,160 --> 02:29:59,240
Speaker 10: How?

2711
02:29:59,320 --> 02:30:01,000
Speaker 7: I mean, how did you to do that? I don't

2712
02:30:01,080 --> 02:30:05,080
Speaker 7: even know how it'd begin to do that with care.

2713
02:30:05,760 --> 02:30:08,560
Speaker 12: I mean, I think my goal going in is like

2714
02:30:08,720 --> 02:30:11,160
Speaker 12: I'm not going to betray you, Like that was my

2715
02:30:12,160 --> 02:30:16,000
Speaker 12: guiding ethos of just like I view like your trust

2716
02:30:16,080 --> 02:30:19,280
Speaker 12: in me as a sacred thing, not like sacred in

2717
02:30:19,360 --> 02:30:22,320
Speaker 12: any formal religious sense, but just like you know, I

2718
02:30:22,400 --> 02:30:24,280
Speaker 12: view your trust in me as something that I hold

2719
02:30:24,959 --> 02:30:28,520
Speaker 12: very dearly. It's very important. I'm going to treat your

2720
02:30:28,560 --> 02:30:31,760
Speaker 12: pain with as much gentleness and respect as I can.

2721
02:30:31,959 --> 02:30:35,480
Speaker 12: And like I interviewed over one hundred people largely about

2722
02:30:35,520 --> 02:30:40,080
Speaker 12: their experiences with experiencing child abuse and an evangelical milieu

2723
02:30:40,600 --> 02:30:44,280
Speaker 12: as it's laid out with painstaking instructions, and like all

2724
02:30:44,400 --> 02:30:46,960
Speaker 12: of these parenting manuals. Actually, like I think reading the

2725
02:30:47,040 --> 02:30:50,680
Speaker 12: parenting manuals was even more disturbing than talking to people,

2726
02:30:50,760 --> 02:30:53,320
Speaker 12: because like people were like this fucked me up and

2727
02:30:53,440 --> 02:30:55,960
Speaker 12: it was wrong. And then these books are like, no,

2728
02:30:56,200 --> 02:31:00,080
Speaker 12: you must be your toddler because Jesus says so, and

2729
02:31:00,240 --> 02:31:03,440
Speaker 12: like here's exactly how to beat your toddler, and here's

2730
02:31:03,560 --> 02:31:05,560
Speaker 12: what you should use to beat your toddler, and here's

2731
02:31:05,760 --> 02:31:09,640
Speaker 12: the like supremely fucked up, like weird ritual that we prescribe,

2732
02:31:10,200 --> 02:31:13,040
Speaker 12: and then like reading those in tandem with like like

2733
02:31:13,560 --> 02:31:16,600
Speaker 12: the accounts of people who were like this specific thing

2734
02:31:16,800 --> 02:31:19,440
Speaker 12: like sucked me up for life and really messed up

2735
02:31:19,480 --> 02:31:22,200
Speaker 12: my ability to have like intimacy or self confidence or

2736
02:31:22,280 --> 02:31:23,640
Speaker 12: whatever all of that stuff.

2737
02:31:23,680 --> 02:31:24,360
Speaker 13: I mean, it was tough.

2738
02:31:24,520 --> 02:31:27,200
Speaker 12: I definitely took more time. Like I wrote Culture Warlords

2739
02:31:27,240 --> 02:31:31,119
Speaker 12: in nine months, so I was like totally immersed constantly.

2740
02:31:31,600 --> 02:31:34,240
Speaker 12: It just like didn't come up for ayer, yeah at all.

2741
02:31:34,720 --> 02:31:36,040
Speaker 12: And this one I was like, I need a little

2742
02:31:36,080 --> 02:31:39,520
Speaker 12: more time, guys, Like I wrote it over you know,

2743
02:31:39,640 --> 02:31:44,080
Speaker 12: almost three years. I also pretentiously started calling this philosophy

2744
02:31:44,160 --> 02:31:46,560
Speaker 12: Guarding your Heart because I really got lost in the

2745
02:31:46,600 --> 02:31:48,800
Speaker 12: sauce with Culture Warlords, Like I was in a dark

2746
02:31:48,920 --> 02:31:52,200
Speaker 12: place while I was writing it, and afterwards I was

2747
02:31:52,240 --> 02:31:55,920
Speaker 12: also the like it came out in mid COVID, so

2748
02:31:56,040 --> 02:31:58,800
Speaker 12: that didn't help either. But uh, it was a really

2749
02:31:58,920 --> 02:32:01,480
Speaker 12: really rough experience with I was like I'm going to

2750
02:32:01,600 --> 02:32:04,120
Speaker 12: keep writing, I'm going to write about sandwiches all the

2751
02:32:04,160 --> 02:32:05,880
Speaker 12: way through. I'm going to like make sure I have

2752
02:32:06,000 --> 02:32:10,959
Speaker 12: friendships and stuff that's grounding me. And I think consciously

2753
02:32:11,040 --> 02:32:13,000
Speaker 12: having that at the forefront of my mind really helped

2754
02:32:13,800 --> 02:32:17,400
Speaker 12: that being said, Like, what was really encouraging was all

2755
02:32:17,440 --> 02:32:21,440
Speaker 12: of these people who had experienced this sort of child

2756
02:32:21,520 --> 02:32:25,920
Speaker 12: abuse industrial complex in the evangelical community, where like we

2757
02:32:26,080 --> 02:32:29,440
Speaker 12: really value that someone wants to hear what we have

2758
02:32:29,560 --> 02:32:32,240
Speaker 12: to say, and also that it's someone from outside the

2759
02:32:32,320 --> 02:32:35,880
Speaker 12: community is like paying attention and thinks this is important,

2760
02:32:36,200 --> 02:32:39,680
Speaker 12: which is not to denigrate like expangelical voices, but more

2761
02:32:39,760 --> 02:32:42,480
Speaker 12: to say that, like, I guess there's a certain validation

2762
02:32:42,600 --> 02:32:45,040
Speaker 12: when someone who's like not didn't grow up in your

2763
02:32:45,400 --> 02:32:48,760
Speaker 12: corner of religiosity, dark corner.

2764
02:32:48,760 --> 02:32:50,680
Speaker 7: And sort of bringing it to an outside audience too.

2765
02:32:50,720 --> 02:32:53,480
Speaker 7: I think a lot of expangelicals their audience is largely

2766
02:32:53,520 --> 02:32:55,880
Speaker 7: their fellow expangelicals exactly.

2767
02:32:55,959 --> 02:32:57,600
Speaker 13: And I'm someone who, like I grew up as a Jew,

2768
02:32:57,640 --> 02:33:00,640
Speaker 13: and I'm like, yeah, this sucked. This terrible.

2769
02:33:01,280 --> 02:33:04,120
Speaker 12: I'm like appalled reading like to Train Up a Child

2770
02:33:04,280 --> 02:33:07,400
Speaker 12: by the Pearls or or The Strong Willed Child by

2771
02:33:07,840 --> 02:33:10,840
Speaker 12: jam Stobson which, like, to be clear, the strong willed

2772
02:33:10,959 --> 02:33:13,800
Speaker 12: child is a bad thing. It's a bad thing to

2773
02:33:13,879 --> 02:33:14,760
Speaker 12: have a child with us.

2774
02:33:14,879 --> 02:33:17,440
Speaker 7: You have to beat it out of them. Sure, literally,

2775
02:33:18,080 --> 02:33:20,040
Speaker 7: And I ran into this in the wild recently. I

2776
02:33:20,080 --> 02:33:22,240
Speaker 7: don't know if you have come across this guy online.

2777
02:33:22,560 --> 02:33:24,840
Speaker 7: Do you know the nineties movie The Little Rascals?

2778
02:33:25,080 --> 02:33:28,120
Speaker 13: Oh my god, alf from The Little Rascals turns out to.

2779
02:33:28,120 --> 02:33:30,360
Speaker 7: Be all Falfa. The guy who played Alfalfa's name is

2780
02:33:30,400 --> 02:33:34,080
Speaker 7: Bug Hall. He like, really like I don't got into

2781
02:33:34,360 --> 02:33:37,720
Speaker 7: a sort of main character situation over some posts about

2782
02:33:37,760 --> 02:33:41,320
Speaker 7: how he beats his infants. He beats infants because that's

2783
02:33:42,240 --> 02:33:43,760
Speaker 7: I guess, a good way to raise a baby.

2784
02:33:44,320 --> 02:33:44,560
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2785
02:33:45,160 --> 02:33:46,959
Speaker 13: Also I think he's homeless.

2786
02:33:47,879 --> 02:33:53,080
Speaker 7: No, he's a surf. Oh he's a voluntary serfdom arrangement.

2787
02:33:54,520 --> 02:33:55,199
Speaker 13: Oh my god.

2788
02:33:56,720 --> 02:34:01,120
Speaker 12: Okay, well he sounds like a big rat school. Yeah,

2789
02:34:02,240 --> 02:34:06,320
Speaker 12: he's continued that trajectory of rascaldom. But don't be your kids.

2790
02:34:06,400 --> 02:34:09,000
Speaker 12: I mean, I will also say the reason why this

2791
02:34:09,120 --> 02:34:12,520
Speaker 12: book focuses so much on child abuse, which, like I

2792
02:34:12,680 --> 02:34:16,120
Speaker 12: encountered some some haters and losers and doubters along the

2793
02:34:16,160 --> 02:34:17,760
Speaker 12: way who were like, why are you focused so much

2794
02:34:17,760 --> 02:34:20,640
Speaker 12: on child abuse, and I was like, there are a

2795
02:34:20,680 --> 02:34:24,280
Speaker 12: lot of different theories about like how authoritarianism develops, but

2796
02:34:24,440 --> 02:34:28,880
Speaker 12: one of the big ones is focusing on the pedagogy.

2797
02:34:28,480 --> 02:34:29,959
Speaker 13: In authoritarian societies.

2798
02:34:30,480 --> 02:34:34,440
Speaker 12: The societies that become authoritarian, you know, evolve from democracy

2799
02:34:34,520 --> 02:34:39,640
Speaker 12: to authoritarianism, and beating the shit out of people from

2800
02:34:39,879 --> 02:34:45,640
Speaker 12: when they're in infancy and particularly when they display disobedience

2801
02:34:45,840 --> 02:34:51,560
Speaker 12: or ask why, or you know, just deviate from expectations.

2802
02:34:51,600 --> 02:34:53,480
Speaker 7: It's a great way to make an obedient brown shirt.

2803
02:34:53,840 --> 02:34:58,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, exactly, Like this is a recipe for future authoritarians,

2804
02:34:58,200 --> 02:35:00,480
Speaker 12: like the people I spoke to who had sort of

2805
02:35:00,520 --> 02:35:03,440
Speaker 12: broken away largely from this culture. But many of the

2806
02:35:03,520 --> 02:35:07,120
Speaker 12: sort of most obedient soldiers in the Army's Army of

2807
02:35:07,240 --> 02:35:11,160
Speaker 12: God like are that way. Because again, I can't overemphasize

2808
02:35:11,200 --> 02:35:15,480
Speaker 12: how much these parenting manuals, which spanned from like nineteen

2809
02:35:15,560 --> 02:35:20,520
Speaker 12: seventy to twenty fifteen, these texts, you know, the dates

2810
02:35:20,600 --> 02:35:24,200
Speaker 12: that they were published, emphasize having an obedient child. What

2811
02:35:24,360 --> 02:35:26,400
Speaker 12: you want is not like a child who's kind or

2812
02:35:26,520 --> 02:35:32,360
Speaker 12: curious or thoughtful or smart. It's obedient, instantly obedient. Don't

2813
02:35:32,400 --> 02:35:35,200
Speaker 12: make me count to three is the title of one

2814
02:35:35,240 --> 02:35:38,320
Speaker 12: of the books, and like, what you're creating is a

2815
02:35:38,360 --> 02:35:41,200
Speaker 12: culture of people who a like empathize with the aggressor

2816
02:35:41,400 --> 02:35:45,000
Speaker 12: at all times. So hence this admiration for strength and

2817
02:35:45,080 --> 02:35:48,320
Speaker 12: even admiration for cruelty, people who are trained to obey

2818
02:35:48,440 --> 02:35:52,320
Speaker 12: and obey without question, and people who are very acclimated

2819
02:35:52,400 --> 02:35:54,400
Speaker 12: to the use of violence.

2820
02:35:54,680 --> 02:35:57,640
Speaker 7: I mean, you're doing fascism in the home, right.

2821
02:35:57,879 --> 02:36:01,600
Speaker 12: So the the author, like Alice Miller, the author of

2822
02:36:01,640 --> 02:36:03,440
Speaker 12: the book For Your Own Good, lays out a pretty

2823
02:36:03,560 --> 02:36:05,480
Speaker 12: she was also a Holocaust survivor. She lays out a

2824
02:36:05,520 --> 02:36:09,240
Speaker 12: pretty strong case for like, you know, early twentieth century

2825
02:36:09,440 --> 02:36:12,960
Speaker 12: Germany having this poisonous pedagogy that also involved beating the

2826
02:36:13,000 --> 02:36:15,320
Speaker 12: shit out of your kids until I was illegal to

2827
02:36:15,400 --> 02:36:21,160
Speaker 12: love your children. Yeah, to obey you, and how basically

2828
02:36:21,280 --> 02:36:23,480
Speaker 12: this is how you make a torture. And the book

2829
02:36:23,600 --> 02:36:26,760
Speaker 12: is called for your Own Good, and yeah, I mean

2830
02:36:27,240 --> 02:36:32,959
Speaker 12: I really think it is like under valued in politics,

2831
02:36:33,040 --> 02:36:37,440
Speaker 12: Like how much this culture of corporal punishment, which is yeah,

2832
02:36:37,840 --> 02:36:42,840
Speaker 12: Americans have like moved away from universal approval of corporal punishment,

2833
02:36:43,240 --> 02:36:45,279
Speaker 12: We're still like a lot higher than other.

2834
02:36:45,240 --> 02:36:49,240
Speaker 13: Western democracies in that regard. And like on a national level.

2835
02:36:49,360 --> 02:36:52,840
Speaker 12: We're the only country in the world that hasn't ratified

2836
02:36:53,000 --> 02:36:55,680
Speaker 12: the UN Conventions on the Rights of a Child, which

2837
02:36:55,720 --> 02:36:59,040
Speaker 12: include like having a name and like not being beaten

2838
02:36:59,160 --> 02:37:02,560
Speaker 12: and not being thrown in to like juvi solitary.

2839
02:37:02,959 --> 02:37:06,040
Speaker 7: Oh well, that's why America can't touch that. We need

2840
02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:07,279
Speaker 7: to incarcerate the children.

2841
02:37:08,120 --> 02:37:10,000
Speaker 13: Yeah, the children yearn for the cells.

2842
02:37:10,680 --> 02:37:13,119
Speaker 12: But it's also just like a lot of it actually

2843
02:37:13,720 --> 02:37:17,480
Speaker 12: was like worries that like evangelicals like would sort of

2844
02:37:17,520 --> 02:37:20,240
Speaker 12: object to the the interference in there.

2845
02:37:20,400 --> 02:37:23,000
Speaker 7: It's an infringement on their religious freedom to be this

2846
02:37:23,120 --> 02:37:24,120
Speaker 7: shit out of babies.

2847
02:37:24,720 --> 02:37:28,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, and their parental rights, which is another buzzword of this,

2848
02:37:29,120 --> 02:37:29,760
Speaker 12: this movement.

2849
02:37:29,840 --> 02:37:31,800
Speaker 7: Pnal rights is a red flag for me.

2850
02:37:32,600 --> 02:37:34,840
Speaker 12: Oh yeah, no, I hear parental rights, and I think

2851
02:37:34,959 --> 02:37:36,560
Speaker 12: you want to beat the shit out of your kids.

2852
02:37:37,160 --> 02:37:38,800
Speaker 7: You don't want your children to learn science.

2853
02:37:38,959 --> 02:37:42,879
Speaker 12: Yeah, you out of homeschool and under educate your kids

2854
02:37:43,200 --> 02:37:48,160
Speaker 12: or miseducate you want to cause a measles outbreak exactly.

2855
02:37:48,680 --> 02:37:50,920
Speaker 12: But that's like for us, because we're weirdos. We're like

2856
02:37:51,400 --> 02:37:55,440
Speaker 12: obsessively clued into this stuff. If you're not, Like parental

2857
02:37:55,520 --> 02:37:58,840
Speaker 12: rights is like religious freedom is like it sounds good. Yeah,

2858
02:37:58,920 --> 02:38:02,119
Speaker 12: it's an effective marketing slogan, but like what it means

2859
02:38:02,280 --> 02:38:03,720
Speaker 12: is like we're going to show up at the school

2860
02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:06,320
Speaker 12: board and yell about how I mean.

2861
02:38:06,920 --> 02:38:08,000
Speaker 13: And Trump is like bought.

2862
02:38:07,840 --> 02:38:11,600
Speaker 12: Into this obviously because he knows where his bread is buttered.

2863
02:38:11,640 --> 02:38:15,000
Speaker 12: He has savvy Like he's like, you guys do the policy,

2864
02:38:15,280 --> 02:38:19,120
Speaker 12: but like his current parental rights based his biggest like

2865
02:38:19,200 --> 02:38:22,640
Speaker 12: policy that he's advocating is like denying federal funding to

2866
02:38:22,760 --> 02:38:25,959
Speaker 12: any school with any vaccine a mandate, which is basically

2867
02:38:26,120 --> 02:38:30,720
Speaker 12: just like make measles great again, like bring back diphtheria.

2868
02:38:31,680 --> 02:38:34,040
Speaker 12: I think, like, yes, the MAGA movement is sort of

2869
02:38:34,080 --> 02:38:38,160
Speaker 12: the the efflorescence, the apotheosis of this sentially building power,

2870
02:38:38,280 --> 02:38:41,920
Speaker 12: but like there's also just like fifty years of power

2871
02:38:41,959 --> 02:38:44,920
Speaker 12: building behind it. And like, even if Trump is defeated

2872
02:38:44,959 --> 02:38:47,520
Speaker 12: at the federal level, which like I profoundly hope he is,

2873
02:38:48,200 --> 02:38:51,080
Speaker 12: sorry to come out as like a you know, partisan

2874
02:38:51,240 --> 02:38:55,880
Speaker 12: a voter, like a hashtag a voter, but like I

2875
02:38:56,040 --> 02:39:00,240
Speaker 12: think it would be just a nauseatingly harrad. It's a

2876
02:39:00,320 --> 02:39:03,520
Speaker 12: horrifying thought that he I mean, first of all, you

2877
02:39:03,560 --> 02:39:08,000
Speaker 12: would absolutely enact every item in this theocratic agenda starting

2878
02:39:08,080 --> 02:39:10,160
Speaker 12: with a national abortion band like that would happen in

2879
02:39:10,200 --> 02:39:14,039
Speaker 12: the first hundred days, I think, which would just functionally

2880
02:39:14,720 --> 02:39:20,959
Speaker 12: plunge American women into like a very very dark septocemic nightmare.

2881
02:39:21,360 --> 02:39:23,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, the dark place that we're going as a coffin.

2882
02:39:24,280 --> 02:39:25,080
Speaker 13: Yeah yeah yeah.

2883
02:39:25,320 --> 02:39:30,040
Speaker 12: But even should he lose, which you know, hope, there's

2884
02:39:30,120 --> 02:39:34,520
Speaker 12: still twenty two states where abortion is outlawed or severely restricted,

2885
02:39:35,520 --> 02:39:41,520
Speaker 12: and these places are becoming care deserts. Like medical residents.

2886
02:39:42,160 --> 02:39:46,000
Speaker 12: My extremely sexy partner is a medical residence, so I

2887
02:39:46,280 --> 02:39:50,160
Speaker 12: know more about the state of medicine than I otherwise would.

2888
02:39:50,400 --> 02:39:53,440
Speaker 12: But like residents don't want to do their residencies in

2889
02:39:53,600 --> 02:39:55,039
Speaker 12: states with abortion restrictions.

2890
02:39:55,080 --> 02:39:59,840
Speaker 7: They're like, right, given a choice, gynecological providers just are

2891
02:40:00,959 --> 02:40:02,920
Speaker 7: practicing there anymore. Like even if you know, even though

2892
02:40:03,080 --> 02:40:06,360
Speaker 7: your primary focus is not abortions, or even if your

2893
02:40:06,360 --> 02:40:09,520
Speaker 7: primary focus is not you know, pregnancy care, they just

2894
02:40:09,520 --> 02:40:10,760
Speaker 7: don't want they just don't want to work there.

2895
02:40:11,200 --> 02:40:13,600
Speaker 12: Well, it's also first of all that, but second of all,

2896
02:40:13,640 --> 02:40:15,280
Speaker 12: it's like, if you're in the er, you're going to

2897
02:40:15,320 --> 02:40:18,959
Speaker 12: experience pregnancy loss because it happens in one in five pregnancy.

2898
02:40:18,600 --> 02:40:20,680
Speaker 7: Right, so they're choosing to work in states where they're

2899
02:40:20,680 --> 02:40:22,440
Speaker 7: not going to go to jail for doing medicine.

2900
02:40:22,600 --> 02:40:25,280
Speaker 12: Yeah, like they don't want to incur the moral injury

2901
02:40:25,320 --> 02:40:27,280
Speaker 12: of not being able to apply the standard of care

2902
02:40:27,959 --> 02:40:32,120
Speaker 12: to patients in extremely common situations such as incomplete miscarriage

2903
02:40:32,280 --> 02:40:36,959
Speaker 12: and you know, pregnancy loss, whether you know self induced

2904
02:40:37,520 --> 02:40:41,320
Speaker 12: or just like miscarriage is super common and nobody talks

2905
02:40:41,320 --> 02:40:41,640
Speaker 12: about it.

2906
02:40:41,920 --> 02:40:44,840
Speaker 7: It's more common than we an Ectopic pregnancy is so

2907
02:40:45,080 --> 02:40:46,960
Speaker 7: much more common than people realize. Like there are so

2908
02:40:47,080 --> 02:40:49,000
Speaker 7: many things that your body can do to betray you

2909
02:40:49,160 --> 02:40:52,440
Speaker 7: that you need a doctors help with just ordinary pregnancy.

2910
02:40:52,640 --> 02:40:54,840
Speaker 7: And then after the baby is born, then your lustrous

2911
02:40:54,879 --> 02:40:55,640
Speaker 7: hair all falls out.

2912
02:40:56,120 --> 02:41:00,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, like ordinary pregnancy is so fraught with like weird

2913
02:41:00,480 --> 02:41:03,680
Speaker 12: body horror. Like but anyway, that's besides the point.

2914
02:41:03,920 --> 02:41:04,240
Speaker 13: Whatever.

2915
02:41:04,400 --> 02:41:07,240
Speaker 12: The point is someone presents with abdominal pain in the

2916
02:41:07,560 --> 02:41:10,080
Speaker 12: er and it turns out to be an ectopic pregnancy,

2917
02:41:10,640 --> 02:41:15,040
Speaker 12: and like you can't do standard of care like dilation

2918
02:41:15,200 --> 02:41:19,840
Speaker 12: and cure tash procedures without checking with the hospital lawyer.

2919
02:41:20,040 --> 02:41:24,280
Speaker 12: Like that is a really bad position for a care

2920
02:41:24,320 --> 02:41:27,000
Speaker 12: provider to be in. So when you have these fundamentally

2921
02:41:27,120 --> 02:41:31,240
Speaker 12: unscientific laws, right, that are produced by people who don't

2922
02:41:31,280 --> 02:41:36,520
Speaker 12: know anything about pregnancy and are like very intentionally ambiguous

2923
02:41:36,800 --> 02:41:41,000
Speaker 12: so that cautious institutions will sort of interpret them at

2924
02:41:41,360 --> 02:41:42,800
Speaker 12: maximally interpret them.

2925
02:41:43,240 --> 02:41:45,560
Speaker 7: Like the life of the mother, How dead does she

2926
02:41:45,720 --> 02:41:46,520
Speaker 7: have to be? First?

2927
02:41:46,840 --> 02:41:49,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, she has to be almost dead, right, and then

2928
02:41:49,840 --> 02:41:53,800
Speaker 12: sometimes she winds up dying because almost dead is tough

2929
02:41:53,920 --> 02:41:57,600
Speaker 12: to judge, Like, it just winds up this grotesque sort

2930
02:41:57,640 --> 02:42:02,039
Speaker 12: of farce of medicine. And they're you directly, like, residents

2931
02:42:02,080 --> 02:42:04,280
Speaker 12: don't want to train, doctors don't want to practice in

2932
02:42:04,360 --> 02:42:05,359
Speaker 12: these places.

2933
02:42:05,040 --> 02:42:07,600
Speaker 7: And so you know, right, so this ends up killing

2934
02:42:07,760 --> 02:42:11,480
Speaker 7: more people than just the ones hemorrhaging in the parking lot.

2935
02:42:11,520 --> 02:42:14,280
Speaker 7: There are people who have completely unrelated problems who are

2936
02:42:14,320 --> 02:42:17,640
Speaker 7: now unable to access unrelated kinds of care because the

2937
02:42:17,680 --> 02:42:18,600
Speaker 7: doctors just aren't there.

2938
02:42:18,920 --> 02:42:22,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, Or people who have ordinary wanted pregnancies who can't

2939
02:42:22,440 --> 02:42:25,000
Speaker 12: access neonatal care, who have to drive hours and hours

2940
02:42:25,080 --> 02:42:28,400
Speaker 12: and hours to like get checkups. Like you know, I mean,

2941
02:42:28,680 --> 02:42:32,480
Speaker 12: human reproduction is like a pretty major part of like life,

2942
02:42:33,120 --> 02:42:35,720
Speaker 12: and a lot of people are doing it. Yeah, Like

2943
02:42:36,120 --> 02:42:38,480
Speaker 12: it's sort of how you know, it's just people do

2944
02:42:38,560 --> 02:42:41,480
Speaker 12: it all the time and not being able to access

2945
02:42:41,879 --> 02:42:46,320
Speaker 12: medical care around like the entire spectrum of like reproduction

2946
02:42:46,520 --> 02:42:49,600
Speaker 12: is pretty catastrophic. But yeah, it also impacts all the

2947
02:42:49,680 --> 02:42:53,160
Speaker 12: people not engaging in reproduction at this moment in time,

2948
02:42:53,800 --> 02:42:55,640
Speaker 12: like doctors who are just like, fuck this, I'm not

2949
02:42:55,680 --> 02:42:58,480
Speaker 12: wearing out a dar in Tennessee, you know, because I

2950
02:42:58,520 --> 02:43:00,199
Speaker 12: want to be able to treat patients.

2951
02:43:00,120 --> 02:43:03,039
Speaker 7: Without a lawyer in the room. Yeah, exactly, I.

2952
02:43:03,080 --> 02:43:04,880
Speaker 12: Mean, and then there are doctors who are bigots and

2953
02:43:05,320 --> 02:43:09,440
Speaker 12: doctors who are happily on board with abortion bands, But like,

2954
02:43:09,600 --> 02:43:10,520
Speaker 12: do you want that to be the.

2955
02:43:10,600 --> 02:43:13,520
Speaker 13: Only doctor in your county? I don't think so, you know.

2956
02:43:13,640 --> 02:43:17,520
Speaker 12: It's just it's a really grim situation. And I just like,

2957
02:43:17,720 --> 02:43:20,520
Speaker 12: I'm such an absolutist about bodily autonomy. It's like, if

2958
02:43:20,560 --> 02:43:23,680
Speaker 12: you don't own your body, you are not a full citizen, period,

2959
02:43:23,840 --> 02:43:27,040
Speaker 12: end of story. Like if a major organ in your

2960
02:43:27,080 --> 02:43:30,440
Speaker 12: body is treated as a controlled substance, like, you are

2961
02:43:30,560 --> 02:43:34,280
Speaker 12: not a full and equal citizen with rights, which I

2962
02:43:34,320 --> 02:43:34,880
Speaker 12: would like to be.

2963
02:43:35,720 --> 02:43:38,240
Speaker 7: I aspire to it. Yeah, so I want to ask

2964
02:43:38,280 --> 02:43:40,360
Speaker 7: you one more question about your book, and I will

2965
02:43:40,440 --> 02:43:42,280
Speaker 7: let you go. I told you that I wouldn't keep

2966
02:43:42,320 --> 02:43:43,840
Speaker 7: you very long, and I lied.

2967
02:43:45,080 --> 02:43:46,960
Speaker 12: But it's like, it's just because I like talking to you.

2968
02:43:48,680 --> 02:43:52,160
Speaker 12: So it's I think I've done the majority of the topics.

2969
02:43:52,280 --> 02:43:52,640
Speaker 13: You can't.

2970
02:43:52,720 --> 02:43:57,040
Speaker 12: You can't be like, oh, it's about your book, which

2971
02:43:57,360 --> 02:44:01,879
Speaker 12: you should buy listeners, preorder it now wherever you buy

2972
02:44:01,920 --> 02:44:04,520
Speaker 12: a books. And if you like the dulcet tones of

2973
02:44:04,600 --> 02:44:07,400
Speaker 12: my voice, which are I shouldn't have you to narrate

2974
02:44:07,440 --> 02:44:09,760
Speaker 12: in my audience books, you brush that passage.

2975
02:44:09,920 --> 02:44:12,279
Speaker 7: I'm a professional talker now, yeah, yeah.

2976
02:44:12,120 --> 02:44:14,840
Speaker 12: Well I narrated the audio book and then was like,

2977
02:44:14,879 --> 02:44:16,840
Speaker 12: why did I write such complicated sentences?

2978
02:44:16,959 --> 02:44:17,519
Speaker 13: Afterwards?

2979
02:44:18,480 --> 02:44:21,160
Speaker 7: So now that I read my own writing like on

2980
02:44:21,240 --> 02:44:23,880
Speaker 7: a regular basis out loud, which is new for me, right,

2981
02:44:23,920 --> 02:44:25,520
Speaker 7: So you know, I have my podcast and I'm writing

2982
02:44:25,560 --> 02:44:27,160
Speaker 7: my little scripts and then then I'm reading into a

2983
02:44:27,160 --> 02:44:31,480
Speaker 7: little microphone. Now that I struggle with that. I noticed

2984
02:44:31,480 --> 02:44:33,160
Speaker 7: while I was reading your book that oh, I wouldn't

2985
02:44:33,200 --> 02:44:36,680
Speaker 7: be able to read this out loud. Where would I breathe?

2986
02:44:37,440 --> 02:44:39,320
Speaker 7: I know it was because I write like that too,

2987
02:44:39,360 --> 02:44:41,360
Speaker 7: and it's something I'm like really grappling with right now.

2988
02:44:41,720 --> 02:44:44,920
Speaker 12: She's like call me ten clubs. I'm like, oh fuck,

2989
02:44:45,080 --> 02:44:48,120
Speaker 12: this sentence is this paragraph. This sentence is a paragraph.

2990
02:44:48,360 --> 02:44:51,240
Speaker 7: Stop it like I really really lost, really lost momentum

2991
02:44:51,360 --> 02:44:51,560
Speaker 7: that one.

2992
02:44:51,680 --> 02:44:54,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, I know, but like I managed to get through it.

2993
02:44:54,760 --> 02:44:57,200
Speaker 12: And if you if you enjoy the dulcae sounds of

2994
02:44:57,240 --> 02:44:59,280
Speaker 12: my voice, you can hear it for like, I don't know,

2995
02:44:59,440 --> 02:45:03,360
Speaker 12: eight hours or whatever. I assume you're being like, listen

2996
02:45:03,440 --> 02:45:04,439
Speaker 12: to my voice.

2997
02:45:04,600 --> 02:45:06,560
Speaker 7: But you know, invite me into your mind.

2998
02:45:07,440 --> 02:45:07,640
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2999
02:45:07,840 --> 02:45:10,400
Speaker 12: But I do think it's nice as an author to

3000
02:45:10,440 --> 02:45:13,720
Speaker 12: read your audiobook because I can like get mad and like,

3001
02:45:14,000 --> 02:45:16,760
Speaker 12: you know, emphasize stuff that I think is important. And

3002
02:45:17,480 --> 02:45:21,600
Speaker 12: also I'm a theater kid, like, like, I don't have

3003
02:45:21,680 --> 02:45:25,480
Speaker 12: many opportunities to perform, and it is a performance and

3004
02:45:25,560 --> 02:45:26,320
Speaker 12: it's it's fun.

3005
02:45:26,600 --> 02:45:28,600
Speaker 7: But yeah, and that comes out at the same time

3006
02:45:28,760 --> 02:45:29,800
Speaker 7: as the physical book.

3007
02:45:30,480 --> 02:45:35,040
Speaker 12: Yes, it comes out audio ebook, physical book with a

3008
02:45:35,080 --> 02:45:36,000
Speaker 12: cool snake on it.

3009
02:45:36,560 --> 02:45:39,039
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, Oh, I guess this is an audio medium.

3010
02:45:39,080 --> 02:45:41,680
Speaker 7: The listener can't see that I'm showing the cool cover.

3011
02:45:42,520 --> 02:45:45,200
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's got a cool snake, a red and black

3012
02:45:45,200 --> 02:45:47,480
Speaker 12: snake on the cover. I've named him Rocco that he

3013
02:45:47,560 --> 02:45:50,480
Speaker 12: has a cross for a tongue. If you're looking for

3014
02:45:50,600 --> 02:45:52,840
Speaker 12: a book to give to the metal head.

3015
02:45:52,680 --> 02:45:53,240
Speaker 13: In your life.

3016
02:45:53,320 --> 02:45:54,959
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, it's pretty metal.

3017
02:45:55,040 --> 02:46:01,600
Speaker 12: Heads, atheists, degenerates. Everyone is gonna love this book.

3018
02:46:01,680 --> 02:46:02,879
Speaker 7: It's perfect for everyone.

3019
02:46:03,440 --> 02:46:06,560
Speaker 12: And if you're light on cash flow, want it for

3020
02:46:06,640 --> 02:46:09,480
Speaker 12: supporting India authors is ask your library to stock it

3021
02:46:10,160 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 12: or your local bookstore because library orders are really important

3022
02:46:14,440 --> 02:46:16,000
Speaker 12: and you can just like put in a request in

3023
02:46:16,040 --> 02:46:19,960
Speaker 12: your library system and that is super helpful.

3024
02:46:20,080 --> 02:46:22,520
Speaker 7: Hell yeah, everybody go to your library's website right now

3025
02:46:22,680 --> 02:46:25,560
Speaker 7: and request that they purchase a copy of Wild Faith

3026
02:46:25,680 --> 02:46:30,000
Speaker 7: by Talia Lavin. Yeah, tallywhere else can people find you online?

3027
02:46:31,000 --> 02:46:34,360
Speaker 13: So I have a newsletter. It's on button down.

3028
02:46:34,680 --> 02:46:37,320
Speaker 12: I left some stack because they were like, we're never

3029
02:46:37,440 --> 02:46:40,360
Speaker 12: going to censor Nazis, but we will sensor porn. And

3030
02:46:40,440 --> 02:46:41,960
Speaker 12: I was like, I don't like your priorities, so I

3031
02:46:42,040 --> 02:46:45,240
Speaker 12: left for button down. So it's buttondown dot com. Slash

3032
02:46:45,320 --> 02:46:47,199
Speaker 12: the Sword in the Sandwich or if you just google,

3033
02:46:47,320 --> 02:46:49,920
Speaker 12: the Sword in the Sandwich comes up. Most Tuesdays I

3034
02:46:50,000 --> 02:46:53,000
Speaker 12: write about like the horrific state of politics, et cetera,

3035
02:46:53,560 --> 02:46:57,640
Speaker 12: And then Fridays I write an essay about a different

3036
02:46:57,800 --> 02:47:01,880
Speaker 12: sandwich on Wikipedia's list of notable sandwiches. And so far

3037
02:47:02,040 --> 02:47:05,680
Speaker 12: I'm I've written one hundred and eleven sandwiches.

3038
02:47:06,280 --> 02:47:09,280
Speaker 7: The sandwich content alone is worth the price of admission.

3039
02:47:09,360 --> 02:47:11,279
Speaker 7: You need to find out about these sandwiches.

3040
02:47:12,000 --> 02:47:14,640
Speaker 12: I mean it just and I get really deep into

3041
02:47:14,720 --> 02:47:18,560
Speaker 12: like the history and the provenance and like like ah,

3042
02:47:18,840 --> 02:47:22,560
Speaker 12: the shifting of people's led to this sandwich. But so

3043
02:47:22,640 --> 02:47:25,600
Speaker 12: I get really deep into it. And then you can

3044
02:47:25,600 --> 02:47:27,880
Speaker 12: also find me on Blue Sky, where I most of

3045
02:47:28,000 --> 02:47:31,080
Speaker 12: the time now because Twitter is just like robots and

3046
02:47:31,200 --> 02:47:35,320
Speaker 12: Nazis and Nazi robots, where I'm at swords Jew. I'm

3047
02:47:35,400 --> 02:47:40,440
Speaker 12: still on vishy Twitter as Moby Dick Energy. And you know,

3048
02:47:40,959 --> 02:47:43,600
Speaker 12: if you want to say hi or invite me to

3049
02:47:43,680 --> 02:47:47,560
Speaker 12: speak at your synagogue or bookstore, I'm at tellyol Even

3050
02:47:47,560 --> 02:47:51,760
Speaker 12: writes at gmail dot com. Or church if you're like cool.

3051
02:47:52,040 --> 02:47:55,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, if it's like a cool church, Yeah, you show

3052
02:47:55,440 --> 02:47:56,840
Speaker 7: up and they pass you a snake.

3053
02:47:57,480 --> 02:48:01,039
Speaker 13: Yeah, exactly. Oh god, I didn't tune up speaking at

3054
02:48:01,080 --> 02:48:01,840
Speaker 13: times for this book.

3055
02:48:02,360 --> 02:48:05,959
Speaker 7: Well, Tally, thank you so much for coming on today again.

3056
02:48:06,080 --> 02:48:08,760
Speaker 7: The book is Wild Faith by Talia Lavin, and you

3057
02:48:08,840 --> 02:48:11,440
Speaker 7: can pre order it now wherever books are sold, and

3058
02:48:11,520 --> 02:48:13,600
Speaker 7: you should request it from your library.

3059
02:48:14,280 --> 02:48:18,240
Speaker 12: Yeah, well, stand Civic services, and I'm a huge fan

3060
02:48:18,320 --> 02:48:22,280
Speaker 12: of public libraries and also of Molly Coungar.

3061
02:48:22,400 --> 02:48:25,360
Speaker 13: So thanks for having me on and take care.

3062
02:48:25,879 --> 02:48:27,439
Speaker 1: Bye bye.

3063
02:48:29,440 --> 02:48:29,600
Speaker 7: Hey.

3064
02:48:29,720 --> 02:48:32,840
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3065
02:48:32,879 --> 02:48:34,560
Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the Universe.

3066
02:48:35,600 --> 02:48:38,080
Speaker 7: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3067
02:48:38,280 --> 02:48:41,320
Speaker 10: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3068
02:48:41,400 --> 02:48:43,920
Speaker 10: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3069
02:48:44,000 --> 02:48:47,880
Speaker 10: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3070
02:48:48,360 --> 02:48:50,280
Speaker 7: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here.

3071
02:48:50,360 --> 02:48:52,160
Speaker 7: Listen directly in episode descriptions.

3072
02:48:52,520 --> 02:48:53,280
Speaker 13: Thanks for listening.