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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome.

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Speaker 2: My favorite murder.

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Speaker 1: That is Georgia hard Star.

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Speaker 2: That's Karen killed Gara.

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Speaker 1: And we're here to podcast at you.

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Speaker 2: We do it every day of our lives.

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Speaker 1: How are you good?

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good. It's like a lovely summer day. I just

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Speaker 1: kind of wanted to sit outside all day long. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh, oak cigarettes smoke, you know, when it's hot

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Speaker 1: and you just want to smoke a big long Virginia slim.

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Speaker 1: You know, the kids are starting to smoke again, like

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Speaker 1: real cigarettes. Yeah, not vabes, I mean hopefully. Yeah, vapes

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Speaker 1: are just immediately killing children. Yeah, that is allegedly.

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Speaker 2: Also cigarettes aren't great either, But.

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Speaker 1: Cigarettes won't get you healthier. They won't. They won't. There's

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Speaker 1: so many things now that it's like remember the story

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Speaker 1: we did where it's like the green wallpaper or the

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Speaker 1: green dresses that were poisoning people in the Victorian era

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Speaker 1: or whatever. It's like that's vapes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're like you know that, so you're essentially

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Speaker 3: licking the wallpaper.

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Speaker 1: You're not even like I didn't know. It's like you know,

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Speaker 1: you're like the doctor was here, Yeah, told you to

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Speaker 1: stay away from the wallpaper and look at you go,

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Speaker 1: look at you put that tongue, Mummy.

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Speaker 2: I love the wallpaper a taste like death.

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Speaker 3: I have a kind of an update, okay about remember

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Speaker 3: when I covered the bodies on Mount Everest in episode

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Speaker 3: one seventy four called rough Ones in high Water then there, Yes, Well,

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Speaker 3: I had mentioned the body of a climber that was

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Speaker 3: called green Boots because of his distinctive boots, and he

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Speaker 3: was like, what's it called when you're like hiking and

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Speaker 3: he's like a spot that everyone knows.

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Speaker 2: Along the trail. Landmark, landmark, thank you.

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Speaker 3: They could never see his face, and so he had

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Speaker 3: been identified as possibly being one of two men, both

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Speaker 3: from India, but the Indian government has now identified him.

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Speaker 2: They did DNA testing.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: They can't move him right now.

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Speaker 3: Because it's impossible to survive and move a body, but

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Speaker 3: they are sure now that his name is door Jay

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Speaker 3: Malrup and there are plans to recover his body later

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Speaker 3: this summer.

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Speaker 1: Do you know how long he's been there?

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Speaker 2: Thirty years? Thirty years?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's chilling to the photo of him is just oh,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I just it can't get over those It's tough.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's such an extreme decision when people, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's why they do it right, and that's why when

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Speaker 1: they come back they can say they did it. But

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Speaker 1: the danger is.

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Speaker 3: I'll never understand the like I'll never understand a lot

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Speaker 3: of things. Agree and climbing Mount Everest is one of

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Speaker 3: the top ones.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've told you this multiple times, but there's

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Speaker 1: times where I order like dinner, and the doorbell rings

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Speaker 1: and nine just can't get off the couch to answer

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Speaker 1: the door to get the food.

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Speaker 2: You can't even climb your own stairs.

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Speaker 1: My personal Everest in the living room, right, which is

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Speaker 1: I couldn't bother. I think what I'm always looking for

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Speaker 1: is that get up and go that people who are

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Speaker 1: like rock climber and extreme athletes and all those things,

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Speaker 1: like they have an engine in there. Yeah, is it

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Speaker 1: always on? I don't know.

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Speaker 3: And is it because they like cut everything else out

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Speaker 3: of their lives that give them dovamine?

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they have to run for seven miles straight to

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Speaker 1: get that three beer feeling. Exactly, Yeah, exactly. And when

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Speaker 1: we know better, when we know the way.

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Speaker 3: We do, when you never when you haven't had those

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Speaker 3: deep conversations after three beers at a bar that like

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Speaker 3: suddenly everything makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Of course you're going to want to go fucking climb a.

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Speaker 1: Mountain, right. No one comes and talks to you at

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Speaker 1: mile seven. No, No, they think that guy's intense and

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Speaker 1: I can't really have a conversation right now. He's into

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Speaker 1: his thing.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: They don't ever say that at the bar.

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Speaker 2: No, they don't.

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Speaker 1: Quite the opposite truly. I was going to just tell

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Speaker 1: the listener that I told you right before we started

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Speaker 1: that I driving over here today. I have a brown

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Speaker 1: long seatshirt on listener watcher, Welcome to Netflix. Netflix. That's up.

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Speaker 1: It's boiling hot outside, but I'm playing against the weather. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking, everyone's well, me and Georgia match

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Speaker 1: accidentally or psychically interesting to see what she'll be wearing today,

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Speaker 1: and it's literally the extreme opposite of what I'm wearing.

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Speaker 3: I am wearing like a nineteen seventies like disco dress

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Speaker 3: that's in rainbow colors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm dressed like Gordon Lightfoot's Roady, and you're dressed

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Speaker 1: like Donna Summer herself with podcasts. Do you have that

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Speaker 1: Maide or something?

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Speaker 2: No, it's from Unique Vintage's online company.

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Speaker 1: I love Hay girl, are you going roller skating after this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? That's it is a roller skating outfit, it really is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or a birthday party?

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Speaker 3: And look at the ring I found at a vintage

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Speaker 3: wedding store in Altadina.

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Speaker 1: A vintage wedding store. Does that say Carol?

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Speaker 2: Nope, it says kind.

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Speaker 3: How amazing is that among all the beautiful vintage person

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Speaker 3: and shoes and jewelry and like little head pieces. I

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Speaker 3: said the same thing. Does that say cunt? And then

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Speaker 3: I was like, I'm wrong, but I'm embarrassed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And did she say it's current or that it's a

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Speaker 1: seventies cunt?

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's I think it's current, but you

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Speaker 3: could tell she was like just kind of cheeky and

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Speaker 3: wanted to throw it in and she loves it. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, it's going to a good home.

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Speaker 2: Should we get started, do anything else?

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. We have a podcast network. It's called

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media, and these are some highlights from what's

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Speaker 1: going on on that network. This week on Buried Bones,

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Speaker 1: Kate and Paul continue their investigation into the Axe Man

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Speaker 1: of New Orleans, one of the most compelling and fascinating

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Speaker 1: old timey cases As the bodies continue to pile up,

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Speaker 1: they ask whether the murders are truly connected or the

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Speaker 1: work of copycat killers.

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Speaker 2: Did you see they're making a Dorothya Puente biopic with

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Speaker 2: who I think, Gena Davis? How great is that?

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Speaker 1: Unbelievable? Yeah, to dig her at trench because she's so

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Speaker 1: much taller than everybody, right that I always think of

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Speaker 1: with her.

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Speaker 3: But you know what's creepy is that, like she probably

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Speaker 3: is the same age as Dorothea Puente. It's just that

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Speaker 3: we don't look like old ladies anymore when we get older.

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Speaker 1: And also Dorothia Puente was dressed up as an old

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Speaker 1: lady on purpose. She she doesn't remember that she wasn't

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Speaker 1: as old as she dressed and acted like.

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Speaker 2: Because you get away with so much.

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Speaker 1: She was like in her mid to late seventies, but

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Speaker 1: she was kind of like, yeah, I'm a the little

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Speaker 1: old lady. Yeah. And then she's picking up bodies and

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Speaker 1: bringing them upstairs and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Like a little old lady. Okay.

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Speaker 3: Then, also over on Disgraceland, Jake tells the unbelievable story

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Speaker 3: of the band Happy Mondays Legends love them from thieves

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Speaker 3: and drug dealers to attempted kidnappings and the fall of

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Speaker 3: Manchester's music scene.

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Speaker 2: This one is almost.

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Speaker 3: Too wild to be true, to be alive. Then in

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Speaker 3: Manchester incredible. I mean so many drugs, so many drugs

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Speaker 3: all day long. Jake is so good at breaking stuff down.

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Speaker 3: But then after that you can go watch the movie

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Speaker 3: twenty four Hour Party People, which is truly one of

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Speaker 3: my favorite It's incredib Then over on Dear Movies, I

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Speaker 3: Love You a million, Casey celebrate the Criterion release of

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Speaker 3: John Waters Desperate Living from nineteen seventy seven, and writer

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Speaker 3: and actor Lloyd Kaufman joins them to talk DIY filmmaking,

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Speaker 3: My Dinner with Andre and the movies he's watching now.

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Speaker 3: And for the biggest news of the summer, we've teamed

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Speaker 3: up with Blanchard House once again we love them for

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Speaker 3: our newest true crime limited series called Royal Swindle. Listen

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Speaker 3: to the trailer now before the premiere on July twenty third.

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Speaker 3: Follow the show on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts or wherever you

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Speaker 3: get your podcasts please.

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Speaker 1: It's a scammer limited series with crazy people scamming British

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Speaker 1: horse people. Yeah, insane. It's going to be epic because

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about from the last rewind, we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about the word proclensity. I did claim it to

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Speaker 1: be the best title we have ever titled any episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I kind of went way out on a limb there.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you were wrong.

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Speaker 1: I think the people have responded. And because Proclensity is

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Speaker 1: such a popular I guess title and made up board

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Speaker 1: of Georgia US, we're now going to make some Proclensity

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Speaker 1: merch and it's so good. It's really good.

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Speaker 2: We just laughed our asses off when we picked it out.

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Speaker 2: We've given some options and we were like, this has

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Speaker 2: to be it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It looks like the cover of a drug the box.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a drug container.

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Speaker 3: Like someone made up a drug, a drug logo, a

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Speaker 3: drug logo, and you went to a convention for drugs

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Speaker 3: and this place gave you a Proclensity shirt, yep or

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Speaker 3: a tote. So please check it out. You can pre

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Speaker 3: order it now. Go to my favorite murder dot com

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Speaker 3: and click on shop.

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Speaker 1: And get in there and look for that pre order.

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Speaker 1: It very fun for Clensity and listen to the rewind

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Speaker 1: as well. If you don't know what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter Okay. My story today starts in Portland,

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Speaker 1: Oregon in late July of nineteen forty six. Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: right after the end of World War Two. It's summertime.

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Speaker 1: It has been particularly hot, especially for Portland, Oregon. This

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Speaker 1: July Loon has several days with temperatures that go over

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Speaker 1: one hundred degrees.

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Speaker 2: It's July and forty six or now forty six.

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Speaker 1: Ok wow, who cares about now? Yeah, I'm back in

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Speaker 1: forty six. Very unusual. Yeah, And in this relentless heat,

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Speaker 1: there's a mix of a sort of postwar malaise, and

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Speaker 1: it has Portlanders on edge. As the summer passes, the

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Speaker 1: violent crime rate begins to tick upward. On any given

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Speaker 1: day this summer, you can pick up an Oregon newspaper

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Speaker 1: and see disturbing and grizzly articles from the crime bee.

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Speaker 1: There's the Oak Grove Jane Doe case, where an unidentified

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Speaker 1: female victims torso is found in the Willamette River. There's

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Speaker 1: also the case of the twenty two year old veteran

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Speaker 1: William Killpack, who was randomly attacked outside of a theater

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Speaker 1: with a hatchet. Jesus. He barely survived, and he later

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Speaker 1: told a reporter quote, war is safer than standing in

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Speaker 1: a Portland street.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: But those are not the cases I'm talking about today.

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Speaker 1: Today's case is arguably the most notorious from Portland summer

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Speaker 1: of forty six, and it starts around eight forty five

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Speaker 1: on the night of Saturday, July twenty seventh, as police

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Speaker 1: rushed to a home on Southeast Yamhill Street. Inside, they

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Speaker 1: find a chaotic scene. An explosion has turned the house

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Speaker 1: upside down, and tragically, the forty four year old wife

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Speaker 1: and mother who lives in this home, Fern Boden, is dead.

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Speaker 1: But whether or not this is a murder scene is unclear,

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Speaker 1: and in some ways it remains unclear to this day.

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Speaker 1: I'm in your area. Okay, this is the story of

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Speaker 1: what the Portland Press calls the Pandora's Box murder ooh

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Speaker 1: cold case for Karen right. This is actually a story

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Speaker 1: that we were thinking about doing for the Portland Show

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Speaker 1: on the tour. So the main sources used today are

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Speaker 1: articles from the Oregonian and Oregon Journal archives and the

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Speaker 1: writing and research of JD. Chandler, and the rest of

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Speaker 1: the sources are in our show notes. So here's what

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Speaker 1: we know about the Boden family. On the night of

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Speaker 1: the explosion, Fern Boden is home alone. Her thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old daughter Doris is out roller skating with friends. So

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty six and thank god, right yeah, because also

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Speaker 1: her seventeen year old daughter Shirley is away visiting family,

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Speaker 1: and her husband, Jim is one hundred and thirty miles

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Speaker 1: away on the Oregon coast on a fishing trip. The

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Speaker 1: Bowdens have been married for decades. Jim is a steam fitter.

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Speaker 1: That means he installs and repairs pipes for heating systems

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Speaker 1: in buildings. Sometimes his job takes him out of state

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Speaker 1: for high paying gigs because not everybody can do that sure,

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Speaker 1: and over the last few years he has worked months

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Speaker 1: long stints in places like Alaska and Toledo, Ohio. But

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Speaker 1: Fern herself is also employed, not out of financial necessity,

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Speaker 1: because Jim of course makes enough money alone to support

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Speaker 1: the family as a pipe fitter. Because there were unions

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Speaker 1: back then, working was a personal choice for Fern. She

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Speaker 1: reportedly quote thought it her patriotic duty to help out

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Speaker 1: end quote during the war. She joins the Union Pacific

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Speaker 1: Railroad Workforce. We don't know what capacity, but the odds

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Speaker 1: are that it's clerical. She likes the job enough to

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Speaker 1: keep it after the war ends. So back to the

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Speaker 1: night of the explosion. Of course, the police rushed to

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Speaker 1: the scene, and officers determined that this explosion took place

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Speaker 1: in the basement and that it was very powerful. It

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Speaker 1: actually pushed the kitchen, so the kitchen was directly above

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Speaker 1: and it pushed the kitchen floor up one inch. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, so huge. And of course furniture, dishware, and

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Speaker 1: windows throughout the house are destroyed. If any other members

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Speaker 1: of the Bowden family had been home, they would have

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Speaker 1: been killed too. And at first investigators wonder if someone

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Speaker 1: was keeping a military grade explosive in the basement, like

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Speaker 1: a keepsake for war, and then it just accidentally went off.

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Speaker 2: Where was she? She just immediately died from the explosion.

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Speaker 1: She did, okay. But then when they go into the

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Speaker 1: basement they find a small box in the corner of

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Speaker 1: the room, and the box has been described to look

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Speaker 1: like a trunk, an apple box, a suitcase, and or

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Speaker 1: a foot locker. But footlocker seems to be the most

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Speaker 1: common description across all reporting, so we'll call it a

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Speaker 1: foot locker. It's about three feet long, three feet deep,

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Speaker 1: ten inches wide. It's kind of small. Investigators can tell

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Speaker 1: that normally this foot locker is padlocked. They can tell

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Speaker 1: stuff like that it's already exploded. Is that crazy? And

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Speaker 1: back then? But of course now the lock is no

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Speaker 1: longer attached and the lid is missing. But somehow the

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Speaker 1: base of this foot locker is largely intact exploded upwards.

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Speaker 1: Police even find a few random items inside, including a

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Speaker 1: journal with handwritten notes.

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Speaker 2: It's so weird that explosion. This is like doesn't explode everything.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't explode every single thing. Yeah, but it moves the

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Speaker 1: floor above it by a full inch. There's also a

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Speaker 1: bunch of wires running through this box, which immediately leads

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Speaker 1: investigators to believe this was a deliberate bombing. Officers are

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Speaker 1: dispatched to track down all members of the Bowden family

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Speaker 1: to tell them what's happened. They find Shirley and Doris

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Speaker 1: first because they're close by, but it takes longer to

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Speaker 1: reach Jim over on the Organ coast, And when they

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Speaker 1: finally do find him out on his fishing trip, they

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Speaker 1: don't tell him Fern is dead. They just say there's

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Speaker 1: been an accident at the house and ask if he

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Speaker 1: knows anything about explosives being stored there. He says no,

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Speaker 1: but the police believe there's something off about the way

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Speaker 1: he's answering their questions. According to police, Jim seems very

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Speaker 1: agitated as he's responding. So now the investigation moves back

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Speaker 1: to Portland and his detectives dive deeper into the personal

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Speaker 1: lives of this family. A picture of a failing marriage

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Speaker 1: comes into focus. They find out that notebook that they

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Speaker 1: found in the foot locker appears to log Fern's whereabouts

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Speaker 1: across several dates, as if someone was quietly documenting her movements.

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Speaker 1: They have a good idea of who was doing this,

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Speaker 1: the husband. Yeah, I thought you'd say it was the husband.

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Speaker 1: Then they find out that on June twentieth, about a

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Speaker 1: month before her death, Fern filed for divorce citing Jim's

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Speaker 1: cruel behavior, and after that, on June twenty seventh, Jim

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Speaker 1: submitted a response to that filing, and in it he

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Speaker 1: denied acting cruelly and accused Fern of being unfaithful. So

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Speaker 1: investigators determined that the notebook in the foot locker was

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Speaker 1: Jim tracking his wife's whereabouts, probably to record evidence and

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Speaker 1: prove his theory that she was cheating on him. So

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Speaker 1: news spreads quickly about Fern's death, and within a day

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Speaker 1: or so, a local contractor named William Buele reaches out

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Speaker 1: to the police and identifies himself as an old buddy

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Speaker 1: of Jim's, and William says the Jim recently came to

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Speaker 1: him with an odd request. He wanted to get his

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Speaker 1: hands on explosives strong enough to quote blow the fish

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Speaker 1: out of the ocean. Cool. Great, just go ask your buddy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: William has access to dynamite through his job, so he

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Speaker 1: gives us friend six sticks of TNT. Ask a couple questions.

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Speaker 1: William says he saw Jim put the explosives into a

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Speaker 1: foot locker, ostensibly the same one found by investigators, and

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Speaker 1: he never seemed to ask any questions. Burrows before host

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Speaker 1: Okay Diyna mie Bros. When police speak to the boat

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Speaker 1: and daughters, they say their dad had recently taken on

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Speaker 1: a very secretive project. They would watch him disappear down

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Speaker 1: into the basement over and over, and he was usually

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Speaker 1: wearing thick gloves when he did it, and he seemed

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Speaker 1: intentionally invasive about what he was doing down there.

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Speaker 2: Evasive.

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Speaker 1: Evasive, sorry, invasive.

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Speaker 2: It's like getting in their faces, their teenage daughter faces.

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Speaker 1: He's looking through their diaries. What am I doing? But

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Speaker 1: do you think I'm doing? Guess what I'm doing? Well,

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Speaker 1: But here's what's weird. That is what he does. So

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Speaker 1: he basically will go down into the basement and mess

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Speaker 1: around with his big gloves on and come up and

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Speaker 1: be like, nobody go into the basement, and certainly don't

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Speaker 1: look into that foot locker, okay, And then he's like,

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Speaker 1: it's padlocked and my notes are inside, do not go

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Speaker 1: look at it. Great, so he's just warning people don't

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Speaker 1: go near it. My journal's in there, it's padlocked. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: stay away you're diary. Yeah now, and her daughters really

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Speaker 1: want to know what's going on, what their dad is

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Speaker 1: up to, and what is in that foot locker. They

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Speaker 1: do contemplate going downstairs to snoop around because of these

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Speaker 1: weird warnings. Investigators go question Jim again when they find

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Speaker 1: this out from the family, and at first he sticks

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Speaker 1: to his original story. He even denies that his friend

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Speaker 1: William gave him that dynamite and that he asked for it,

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Speaker 1: but eventually Jim will crack and admit that he did

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Speaker 1: in fact create a bomb and keep it in his basement.

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Speaker 1: He sketches a diagram of it even for the police,

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Speaker 1: showing exactly how he had rigged this circuit connecting the

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Speaker 1: dynamite sticks to some batteries, so if someone lifted the

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Speaker 1: lid of the locker, it would trigger an explosion.

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Speaker 3: With your two daughter, I mean your wife, of course,

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Speaker 3: put your two daughters in the house, and you're like

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Speaker 3: basically egging them on to open the fucking locker.

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Speaker 1: It's like he's a cowardly family annihilator. Yeah, he can't

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Speaker 1: do it directly, but he's yeah.

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Speaker 2: True.

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Speaker 1: So Fern obviously fell for this terrible ruise. But Jim

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Speaker 1: maintains two investigators. Oh do they think she opened it?

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Speaker 1: She opened it? Oh that's how she died.

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Speaker 3: I thought it just blew up on its own. So

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Speaker 3: they think she went down there. Finally, when the girls are.

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Speaker 1: Out, because the girls basically told the investigators like we

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Speaker 1: actually were talking about maybe going and looking because he

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Speaker 1: was being so weird about it. Fuck, I know. So

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Speaker 1: right now I'm about to show you a picture of

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Speaker 1: Jim Bowden, but you better get ready, Cay.

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Speaker 2: I'm so scared.

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Speaker 1: Oh Jesus Christ, God Almighty. Can you imagine if this

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Speaker 1: man was waiting around the corner for you on a

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Speaker 1: dark and stormy night.

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Speaker 2: It looks like the bomb just blew up in his face.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't love flossing. That's something I can

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Speaker 1: guarantee you.

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Speaker 2: It looks shell shocked.

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Speaker 1: Okay, he looks absolutely like if he had a knife

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Speaker 1: in his hand and he was dragging it behind him,

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Speaker 1: you would run.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely a hatchet outside the theater. Do we know

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Speaker 3: he didn't do that one.

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Speaker 1: Due that's so true, right, he switched it up when

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Speaker 1: not didn't work out. It was like a bummer. We

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Speaker 1: have Fern as well, Okay, poor Fern. And then I

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Speaker 1: think we have a picture of the foot locker. Oh

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Speaker 1: and that headline says explosion damages home husband question.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why. When I think of an explosion,

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Speaker 2: I think of it destroying everything.

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Speaker 1: But there's so much left over.

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Speaker 2: Yes, interesting.

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Speaker 1: I wonder also if it's like he kills his wife

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Speaker 1: and then he can just still go live and he's

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Speaker 1: the victim my insurance.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure there's insurance somewhere in the story, somewhere house

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Speaker 3: or wife, But the thinking is so beyond bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Jim maintains to investigators the bomb was not

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Speaker 1: meant for Fern. He claims that it was built with

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Speaker 1: a different person in mind, a local man named George

401
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 1: Hawkenyos love when a brand new character comes into the investigation.

402
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Speaker 3: I love the story because it sounds like we all

403
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 3: know what's happening, but you've already told me something.

404
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 2: Weird is happening. So I'm like, what's it gonna be?

405
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Speaker 2: Everyone is a suspect.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, according to Jim, your favorite TV show of

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Speaker 1: all time, I wrote that down about a year earlier,

408
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 1: he'd become suspicious that his wife was having an affair

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Speaker 1: with this man, George. He was working in Toledo at

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Speaker 1: the time, and he claims he began receiving anonymous letters

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Speaker 1: to imply that Fern was cheating on him. Okay. The

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Speaker 1: letters said cryptic things like quote, Saturday afternoon tea parties

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Speaker 1: and luncheons can obviously become Saturday night dinners and breakfasts.

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Speaker 1: Love the word luncheon, luncheon, sex luncheon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to my sex luncheon.

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Speaker 1: Do you want any crab cakes? So gross? Gross sex

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Speaker 1: crab cakes, So that'll mix. Are you trying to do

418
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 1: a title right now? Hell?

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00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 3: No, we're not calling us sex and crab cakes.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So of course Jim reads these letters. He's overcome

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Speaker 1: with jealousy, but he wants definitive proof of his wife's infidelity.

422
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 1: So every time he talks to her on the phone

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Speaker 1: and Fern tells him what she's doing and what her

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00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,159
Speaker 1: plans are, he takes careful notes and then secretly fact

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Speaker 1: checks what she's saying by calling up the people in

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Speaker 1: places that she mentions to him. Vince, does that to you, right?

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Speaker 3: I mean, like Dale, Also take notes on your partner's whereabouts, right,

428
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Speaker 3: and like write them in a journal and look them up, Kara,

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Speaker 3: take a picture where you're at right now and show

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Speaker 3: show it, right.

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Speaker 1: So Jim does this for months, according to the journal

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Speaker 1: the police find in the foot locker, and he claims

433
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Speaker 1: to have at least on one occasion, caught his wife lying.

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00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 1: Fern told him that she was going to a tea party,

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Speaker 1: as was mentioned in the letter, but when Jim calls

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00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: around to confirm it, he can't. He concludes that she

437
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: made it up. When he returns to Portland, he notices

438
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 1: that his wife is spending a lot of time with

439
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 1: her coworker, George. We don't know too much about George.

440
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: He was a private person. Record suggests he was a

441
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: solid member of the community. He held his post at

442
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 1: Union Pacific for more than four decades, and he's heavily

443
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 1: involved in Portland civic organizations. We also know that in

444
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: the twenties he was married to a woman named Thelma,

445
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: but she's not listed in.

446
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 2: George and Thelma or my grandparents name Ooh, like that's

447
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 2: why I'm named Georgia, because is that right? And my

448
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 2: grandma's name is Thelma.

449
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: The conbo Yeah, no, door close, don't match? Like what

450
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it? Let's do it?

451
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 2: Wait what I don't understand that?

452
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: Oh, just like weird psychic connections of like this your

453
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: grandparents are here. That was just like a connection you

454
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: knew was going to happen. Get ready to get ready.

455
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 2: You're looking weird, though, George and Thelma, like super weird.

456
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,479
Speaker 1: George, Mary's Thelma? Okay, this is where we are.

457
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: Okay.

458
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: But because she's not listed in his future obituary, nor

459
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: do they seem to have children together, it seems likely

460
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: this marriage was over by the time, George and Fern

461
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: worked together at Union Pacific. But he's a little older.

462
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: She like it seems like he's a little older. So

463
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: they meet at Union Pacific in the forties. Basically after that,

464
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: she starts driving him to work. Now, at the time,

465
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: I was kind of surprised to learn this, but carpooling

466
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: with coworkers got very common during the war because there

467
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: was all these gas rations. Sure makes sense. It was

468
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 1: strongly encouraged, and it seems Fern also drove other work colleagues.

469
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that was kind of a normal

470
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: thing as carpools of multiple people.

471
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, like up until probably the eighties, right, and then

472
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 3: we're all like, everybody's on their own.

473
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: We take up as much room as possible.

474
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,199
Speaker 1: We hate THEO zone. Get me a mixed separated or

475
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: whatever those things were called. Rememberless nick dlt.

476
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 3: That is the name of the episode Hot Side's Hot,

477
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 3: The Cool Side's Cool.

478
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: David Letterman talked about the nick dlts so much when

479
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: that thing came out.

480
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what we're talking about.

481
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: They don't, but please look it up.

482
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 2: Look up.

483
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: You'll have a good time. So over time, George and

484
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: Fern do become close. While Jim is out of town,

485
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: George helps her around the house with handiwork. Sometimes he

486
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: stays for dinner with the family, and those dinners continue

487
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: when Jim comes back to Portland. So it doesn't seem

488
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,959
Speaker 1: like Fern's acting like she has anything to hide, right, Still,

489
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: Jim is consumed by jealousy.

490
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: Do we think George was gay? Maybe?

491
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: And like, I mean, yeah, there's so many possibilities, are

492
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: like you just you're the kind of woman that in

493
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: the forties is like, no, I want to work and

494
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: I want to be outside of the house. So like,

495
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: I bet she was great and the kind of person

496
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: that had a bunch of friends. Maybe boys and girls

497
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: can be friends, can't they. So even though he has

498
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: no proof, he's consumed with jealousy. So he starts accusing

499
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: Fern of having this affair. So basically, he works out

500
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: of town and he's having affairs, probably right, and then

501
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: coming back and being like how dare you? So both

502
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: Fern and George consistently and adamantly deny any affair between

503
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: the They insist they're just good friends. So he could

504
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: have been a yeah. Even after Ferne's death, George will

505
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: continue to stress that their relationship was purely platonic, although

506
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: he does say that they had a strong bond, and

507
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: he did admit he kept Fern's checkbook for safe keeping

508
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: when her marriage started to fall apart. Oh this now

509
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: it sounds weird, but back then, women weren't even supposed

510
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: to have check books, right, Like, so I wonder if

511
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: it was, like, can you make sure that the budget's balanced, because.

512
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 3: I don't know how he's keeping it, as in balancing it,

513
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 3: that's what it sounds like.

514
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah interesting, yeah.

515
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, not like here it's in a drawer when you

516
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: need it, I thought.

517
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 2: No.

518
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: I think it's like she turned it over to him,

519
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: which makes me go, I wonder what he did at

520
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: Union Pacific.

521
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: It could have been an accountant or something.

522
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: Jim can't shake his feeling that George is a threat

523
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: to his family. That's called paranoia, and the Bowdens start

524
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: fighting constantly for an eventually reaches a breaking point and

525
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: that's when she files for divorce. And that's also when

526
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: Jim comes up with this plan to get rid of

527
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: his competition, or so he claims, But before he could

528
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: plant it somewhere where George would be the one that

529
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: would open the foot locker. Jim claims that he got

530
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: cold feet, that he wasn't sure how to get rid

531
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: of this bomb that he had built, so he locked

532
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: it up and left it in his basement until he

533
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: could think of a better plan.

534
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: With his daughter's just sleeping above just right upstairs.

535
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: So Jim Bowden is arrested in charge with his wife

536
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: Fern's murder. The trial begins in December of nineteen forty six,

537
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: and it seems like Jim's legal strategy is to double

538
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: down on the claim that George was his intended victim,

539
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: not Fern. Per reporting, Jim's lawyers seem interested in exploring

540
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: the castle doctrine, which is the idea that you can

541
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: defend your home with deadly force if need be. Okay,

542
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: so if Jim saw George is a threat to his

543
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: home vis a vis his marriage, then a jury might

544
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: be convinced to convict him of a like a lesser

545
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: charge like manslaughter. Fine, but prosecutors jump on this logic immediately.

546
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: If that was the case, why did Jim go through

547
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: the elaborate process of learning how to create a deadly

548
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: bomb only to leave it in his basement in a

549
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: place that was accessible to his family. Right, you said

550
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: that already, like twenty minutes ago. Not only that, but

551
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: the prosecution reveals that the locked gym used to secure

552
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: the foot locker was one they had used before, So

553
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: Fern knew the combination. Okay, standing out in the kitchen going,

554
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: do not go near the locked foot locker.

555
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: You rest your case. That's it.

556
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: Guilty, No, you're honor.

557
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: No.

558
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: Prosecutors push back also on the idea that Jim didn't

559
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: know how to dismantle or dispose of the bomb when

560
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: obviously he fucking built the bomb.

561
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: It doesn't say that I'm the labor that you're fucking fishing.

562
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: Fin don't build it in the first place. That too, Okay,

563
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: he knew exactly what wires to cut, right, he could

564
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: disarm that bomb anytime he didn't do it.

565
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: He could throw it in the lake he was fishing

566
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: that weekend.

567
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that's right. It could have never threatened anybody

568
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: because you go snip snip, like every great Canner Reeves

569
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: movie we've ever seen, and it's over in the end.

570
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: The District Attorney John R. Collier's case rests on the

571
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: idea that Fern just as likely could have been the

572
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: intended target, which suggests premeditated murder. Even the judge tells

573
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: the jury quote, we have only the defendant's own statement

574
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: that he intended the bomb for George Hakenjos rather than

575
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: his wife. It's a question of fact for the jury

576
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: to decide, end quote. So it took that jury five

577
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: hours to deliberate and come back with a murder conviction

578
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: for Jim Bowden. He is sentenced to life in prison

579
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: for the murder of his wife. And it seems like

580
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: he actually did spend the rest of his life in prison, right,

581
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: the rare story where that's he didn't get out on

582
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: good behavior. Jim passes away sometime in the fifties. We

583
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: don't know why. So whether the target of Jim's homemade

584
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: bomb was Fern or George is something that we kind

585
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: of can't ever know. Are you as frustrated right now

586
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: as I usually am at this.

587
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 3: Point because I think it's her. I think she was

588
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 3: the target. Yeah, it's kind of logical, it's kind of clear. Yeah,

589
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 3: And we only have his claims to go on. The

590
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: indisputable fact is that he was the only genuine threat

591
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: in the Bowden home, and as DA John Collier said,

592
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: during Jim's trial. Quote did you ever once hear this

593
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 3: defendant say I'm sorry, I wish I had my wife back.

594
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: His silence resounds louder than his words.

595
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: All he did was defend himself, not a moment of.

596
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: Yep, it's not me and I wanted to kill him.

597
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: It's like still a killer. His wife's death was premeditated, intentional,

598
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: and deliberate. This man is a good poker player. End quote. Wow,

599
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: and that's the story of Portland's so called Pandora's Box murder.

600
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 3: Wow. I didn't understand in the beginning, And it's so

601
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 3: much more chilling that he wanted someone to open it

602
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: and she did.

603
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: I thought it just accidentally blew off at some point.

604
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: It was like the thing of him standing around being

605
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: like do not he thought he was using reverse psychology, right,

606
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: But that's what's creepy about it to me is his

607
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: daughters easily could have They all talked about maybe going

608
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: down and little sleeping. So was he like a half

609
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: family annihilator?

610
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? I wonder what the daughters thought.

611
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: This poor girl so sad.

612
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, Wow, well, great job, I've you never heard of

613
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: that one.

614
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was hard to not pick that one for Portland.

615
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the one you did in Portland is incredible.

616
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: I think we're putting up the live episode soon. It's

617
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 3: the one of the high school, the high school scam.

618
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: The high school bank robbers.

619
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: Yes, that'll be out a couple episodes, so make sure

620
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: you check out that live episode from Portland.

621
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: That's right. Okay.

622
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 3: My story is a little wild too in that a

623
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: what actually happened kind of a thing perfect, which I

624
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: think we're gonna solve it. As I always say, although

625
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: I know we know what happened and it sucks.

626
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: Can I just say this really quick? Yeah, in terms

627
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: of cold cases, I was getting ready to come here

628
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: today and I was like, they caught the Gilgo Beach killer.

629
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: That's a reality anymore. Yeah, as hard as things are

630
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: these days, we must focus on things that are true progress.

631
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: Right.

632
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: That thing was like he's he's behind bars.

633
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: He can't kill another person.

634
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god.

635
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: So this one you see sometimes as headlines like clickbaity headlines.

636
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: I saw this one on an Instagram account called history

637
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 3: Feels with the headline that was kind of makes you

638
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 3: laugh at first. It's along the lines of man in

639
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 3: Illinois sentenced to prison for causing the nineteen ninety three

640
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: Great Flood to keep partying. That's like the idea behind

641
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: it is a skuy.

642
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: Whatever whatever you're about to tell me, I'm so here

643
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: for yes you are.

644
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: And the local story goes that this catastrophic flood was

645
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 3: almost entirely preventable were it not for the town ne'er

646
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 3: do well, who basically wanted to strand his wife on

647
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 3: one side of the flood plane so he keep drinking

648
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: and partying and fishing on the other side of it,

649
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: so he purposely caused the levee to break.

650
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: That's the story, that's the headline, okay.

651
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 3: But of course, as truths so often tend to be,

652
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: the real story is a little darker and much more

653
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: complex than the folklore and clickbait headlines would lead you

654
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 3: to believe. This is the story of James Scott, the

655
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: man who authorities claim caused a massive natural disaster so

656
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: he could strand his wife on one side of the

657
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: river while he partied on the other.

658
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: Everybody can relate to that, right, I just want to

659
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: party a little bit more and someone's gonna stop stop

660
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: me from doing that, so I'll flood the zone.

661
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 3: Right, So you see that headline and you're like, I

662
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: know that guy. Yeah, I used to party with him

663
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 3: in high.

664
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: School, and I am that guy. I get it.

665
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 3: The main sources for the story are a Vice documentary

666
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 3: and a twenty seventeen episode of Criminal, a podcast Criminal

667
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 3: called Catastrophe. Also, the Dallup covered this one as well.

668
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: It's just such a perfect dollib story that I'm going

669
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 3: to now cover, And the rest of the sources can

670
00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: be found in the show notes.

671
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the flood.

672
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: It's July sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, exactly thirty three years

673
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: before this story airs.

674
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: On the day, Oh to the day. God, that's upsetting

675
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: the right, It's like, where was I? And then it's

676
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: just like, you mean, it's a hold that person ago, Yeah,

677
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: thirty three years ago.

678
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 3: When I realized what high school reunion I would be

679
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 3: coming up on recently, I kind of disassociated.

680
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: From my life.

681
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: Did you go like this backwards? Who?

682
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: So thirty three years and we're on the banks of

683
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: the Mississippi River.

684
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: Sold, how did I make it this far? We did it.

685
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: We've done it. We've done it. High five.

686
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: So we're on the banks of the Mississippi River. We're

687
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: in two towns on opposite sides of the Mississippi River.

688
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 3: One side is Quincy, which is in Illinois, and the

689
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: other side is West Quincy, which is actually in Missouri.

690
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: They love to do that back there, Kansas City, Kansas.

691
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: Then you touch either side. Right.

692
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: We're only about twenty miles upstream from Hannibal, Missouri, which,

693
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 3: as you know, is where Mark Twain was born and

694
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: is the basis for the setting of Tom Sawyer and

695
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 3: the Ventures of Huckleberry Finn. Just to give you and

696
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: your brain an idea where.

697
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: We are, I've always got to go literary like that. Yeah,

698
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say birthplace of Hannibal

699
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: birth hilarious comedian Hannibal Burs.

700
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 3: So this summer, the Mississippi is looking particularly mighty. The

701
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 3: previous winder had been very snowy. Of course, there's you know,

702
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 3: climate change even in ninety three guys, imagine that. And

703
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: it's also been a very rainy spring and early summer.

704
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 3: So the river is worryingly high. In the days leading

705
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: up to July sixteenth, it's been raining buckets that summer

706
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 3: rain all up and down the Mississippi. The river has

707
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 3: been breaking through its levees, washing out houses, neighborhoods, towns,

708
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 3: and wiping out harvests on thousands of acres of farmland.

709
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 3: And I read that during this great flood of nineteen

710
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 3: ninety three, more than a thousand levees were basically breached

711
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 3: along the Mississippi and the area.

712
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: So a thousand levees. Yeah, so that's all fucking a

713
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 2: town that looks like a river, but town a bunch

714
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: of people's livelihoods and houses underwater.

715
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: Not supposed to be there. We may do it before

716
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: and after.

717
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 2: I love it before and now I love Oh my god,

718
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: I just click click click click over.

719
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: Okay, especially when it's a haircut. But the river's good.

720
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: Talking about like natural disaster.

721
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 3: Oh same though, right, Sometimes can be a natural don't

722
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 3: be a natural disaster. If you do it yourself, it's

723
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 3: a natural disaster. So for the week preceding July sixteenth,

724
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 3: there's been an all hands on deck effort to come

725
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: down to the levees and help sandbag. It's kind of

726
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 3: this like feel good, get the community together to help.

727
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 3: Pretty much everyone in town is there. They use bulldozers

728
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 3: to try to scrape the dirt upward to make the

729
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 3: levee taller and then put sandbags on the top of

730
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: that just to make the make it taller.

731
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: That's how the water you know, you get it.

732
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 3: And so by the afternom of the sixteenth the river

733
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 3: is at thirty one point nine feet high and the

734
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 3: levee is supposed to keep out water up to thirty

735
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: two feet. Oh so we're not how close enough? Okay,

736
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 3: at this point it's not really safe for most volunteers

737
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 3: to be out working on the levees, but there are

738
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 3: a few up and down the river keeping watch for breaks,

739
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: along with a National Guard. At two pm, from a

740
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 3: quarter mile away, guardsmen and volunteers on a bridge here

741
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 3: trees cracking and realized the levee has broken in an

742
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 3: area that wasn't being directly watched because it had thought

743
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 3: to be one of the strongest points. Instantly, rushing water

744
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 3: creates a hundred foot gap in the levee and water

745
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: comes pouring through, washing out roads and bridges, flooding farmland

746
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: and essentially cutting off access to West Quincy. And we

747
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 3: have a photo of that levee breach just to give

748
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 3: you an idea. So that is the point of where

749
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 3: it breached. It just opened up and all this water

750
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 3: that have been held back just flowed in and took

751
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: everything out. Yep, it's pretty fucked up. A barge gets

752
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 3: sucked through the hole like a fucking ship, Oh my god,

753
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 3: the long ship.

754
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: The long flat ones that they like to have on

755
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: those rivers.

756
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: And crashes into a gas station, causing an explosion and

757
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 3: a fire that burns into the night.

758
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: It's just mayhem.

759
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: But miraculously no one is killed in an accident or

760
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 3: hurt or in this instance of flooding at all.

761
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 2: So no one's hurt, just a lot of damage.

762
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: That evening, on.

763
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 3: The local news and interview airs from just after the

764
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 3: levee had broke, they show up and they're just trying

765
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: to interview whoever's there, and they find this twenty three

766
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 3: year old man who is a volunteer who's trying to

767
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 3: help you put.

768
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: Those sandbags up and stuff. His name is James Scott.

769
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 3: He said he had seen the weak spot where the

770
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 3: levee wound up breaking and he had tried to patch

771
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: it up. Everyone else had left. In the interview, he says,

772
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 3: quote everybody else left. Sorry, I decided I'd stick around

773
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: till the next crew came end quote. He says that

774
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: he had seen a spot where the water was seeping in,

775
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 3: and he had moved some sandbags to that spot and

776
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 3: then had gone to get help, and while he was

777
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: doing that, the levee had broken. So James, who most

778
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 3: people call jim or Jimmy, we're gonna call him Jimmy,

779
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 3: is from Quincy on the higher up Illin side, so

780
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 3: his town is fine, but his wife, Susie, works at

781
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: a restaurant on the Missouri side where it just flooded,

782
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 3: and so he, like many other Quincy presidents, had been

783
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 3: out helping to prevent a flood for his neighbors across

784
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 3: the river. When that interview with him airs, it catches

785
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 3: the attention of a lot of people in Quincy who

786
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: know who he is, but particularly a police detective. And

787
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 3: this is because the detective knows Jimmy very well. The

788
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 3: thing is, Jimmy and his brothers, but especially Jimmy, are

789
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 3: a bit notorious around Quincy for various crimes, but particularly

790
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 3: for arson. So I'm going to show you a screen

791
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 3: grab from that news report that's from the Vice documentary

792
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: because I want to show you he's got that he

793
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 3: listens to Slayer probably, Yeah, for sure, right and Motley Crue.

794
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: Maybe, I don't know.

795
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: That's what all the boys who are seniors when I

796
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: was a freshman, that's what they look like in the eighties.

797
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: Totally.

798
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: I mean, now, this is the nineties, but there was

799
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: an adultness to young men back then.

800
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: With their little mustaches and stuff.

801
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, I don't dated a guy I looked like

802
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: that from rehab.

803
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: Like, it's just he looks, you know, he looks like

804
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: a bad guy. But I would think that he would

805
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: have a pack of cigarettes rolled in one of those leaves.

806
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 3: Definitely, right, Definitely smokes and drinks a lot of beer.

807
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and wants to go to the lake.

808
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: Right, but tried to help, tried to help his neighbors.

809
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: So we thought. Also, that was my hair from the

810
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 1: in the nineties. It just kind of needs some hair

811
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: oil and weird wavy. We're on TV, yet we don't

812
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: seem to care. Just kidding. It was tough back then.

813
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: There was no products, no just like harsh ones.

814
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: Basically, in nineteen eighty two, when Jimmy is twelve, he

815
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: and his two brothers, who are eleven and thirteen, they

816
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 3: sneak into their old elementary school at night and the

817
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 3: elementary school, I think at this point isn't in use anymore.

818
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: But they sneak in and they're already known as local troublemakers.

819
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 3: But that night in school is when they cement their reputation.

820
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 3: They wind up in the auditorium smoking cigarettes. Basically, the

821
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: youngest brother ends up with a lighter and Jimmy dares

822
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: him to set one of the curtains on fire.

823
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: They're just fucking I can't judge.

824
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 3: If I were judged based on shit that I lit

825
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 3: on fire when I was.

826
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: That, ah, I would be in prison. But I'm just guessing.

827
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: Did you light things on fire indoors?

828
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh, we were bad fucking kids, But did you light.

829
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: Things like curtains on fucking fire where it's like this

830
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: is the second step to every Christmas tree fire you've

831
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: ever seen.

832
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: We didn't know that. There was definitely vandalism.

833
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 3: I refuse to implicate myself, yes, for my family, but

834
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 3: there was some. But there was some vandalism, are you banksy,

835
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 3: I'll be amazing.

836
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: I wish I told you how as a I think

837
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: I was in fourth grade. With my fingernail, I carved

838
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: the word fuck into the back of a chair. Yes,

839
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: because I had seen it. It was spray painted out

840
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: our school wall, and everyone's like, right, look, I did that.

841
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: I spray painted it.

842
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: That was when I was six, and then I processed

843
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: it in a borrowed car.

844
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: But just to say, like, they targeted him because he

845
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: had done bad stuff in the past, and it's like,

846
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 3: so have I.

847
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: So let's not we can't do that.

848
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: Many kids do, right. But then if you're getting older

849
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: and you look like you're thirty nine, right, how about

850
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: you don't light the fucking curtains on fire.

851
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 3: Yes, but he was twelve when that happened, Okay, So

852
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: he's still not a good He still did some crimes, Yes,

853
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 3: he's still.

854
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: Also the fact that the crime is arson as opposed

855
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: to vandalism, those are wildly fire apart in terms of

856
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: the what's going on with the twelve year old?

857
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 3: Total, Totally, that's a totally it's your bug, okay. So

858
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: he lights the curtain on fire and it immediately ignites,

859
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 3: as curtains do when you light them on fire, especially

860
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 3: old ones at grammar school. Totally, this is an old

861
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: fucking school too.

862
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: The boys try for a few seconds to put it out,

863
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: but they realize the fire is spreading to the whole curtain.

864
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: So they try to get out of the school through

865
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: the window that they climbed through. On their way out,

866
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 3: Jimmy realizes his brother is holding a stolen grade book. Oh,

867
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 3: he's worried about fingerprints. So Jimmy takes the grade books,

868
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: lights it on fire, and throws it back into the

869
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 3: classroom and they get out of there.

870
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: Oh so they like basically they're getting f's and they

871
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: went and took the book that said that.

872
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: I don't know from what I've read, the school has

873
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: already closed, so maybe they were just like closed down.

874
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: Oh, just I don't know.

875
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: Stuff to burn.

876
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay.

877
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 3: By two in the morning, the whole town smells like smoke.

878
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 3: The fire keeps burning into the morning as firefired has

879
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 3: worked to put out the blaze, but the one hundred

880
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: k square foot school is ultimately burned to the ground.

881
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: My God, like, this old brick, beautiful building.

882
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: And it was a couple fifth graders that did it, right,

883
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 1: fifth sixth seventh.

884
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 3: Investigators immediately suspect that kids had been involved and ask

885
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: local teachers to keep an eye out for any kids

886
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: who are behaving strangely, which is smart. Doesn't take long

887
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 3: for teachers to hone in on the Scott boys, who

888
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 3: are behaving very weirdly and who have made a few cryptic,

889
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 3: you know, allusions to their friends about having started.

890
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: The fire, okay, because they want that credit.

891
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 3: They want the credit and their children. And juvenile court

892
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 3: a judge determines that Jimmy was the ringleader and sends

893
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: him to a Juvenmoule detention center for the rest of

894
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 3: the school year, which is about four months. The youngest

895
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 3: brother is sent to live with a foster family, and

896
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 3: the oldest.

897
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 2: Brother gets probation.

898
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: By the summer, the whole family is reunited, but the

899
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 3: Scott boys, especially Jimmy, get a reputation around town that

900
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 3: they can't seem to shake or don't want to, and

901
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,959
Speaker 3: they don't do much to shake it, because Jimmy does

902
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 3: set a few other fires, mainly abandoned cars and dumpsters.

903
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: This time Jimmy's got something to say, yeah.

904
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 3: In his late teens, and he also gets arrested a

905
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 3: few times for petty theft. I mean, he's not you know,

906
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 3: are perfected as a victim. He does set a fire

907
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: one occasion, according to police, to an occupied apartment of

908
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: a girl who turns him down for a date.

909
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: So it's not good that he's he's it's not good. Good,

910
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: it's not good. Yeah, it's a he's a he's.

911
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: A troublemaker, Yeah, for sure.

912
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: But fire's next level.

913
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: Yes, fire is not good.

914
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: It's not good, not good.

915
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 3: When Jimmy's eighteen, he is charged for several arsons at once,

916
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: and he is sentenced to seven years in prison. He

917
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: serves three, and he's released when he's twenty one, and

918
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 3: he gets a job at Burger King, And of course,

919
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 3: because this always seems to happen, he marries a woman

920
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 3: who wants to marry him.

921
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, I mean coming in hot off of

922
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 1: like a jail stint. Yes, and a boy there's a McConaughey.

923
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: Vibe to him is yeah, he's always got cigarettes rolled

924
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: up in his ear, up on the cash register at

925
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 2: Burger King.

926
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: This guy comes rolling in, always got Schlitz, cold Schlitz

927
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: as cold the breath.

928
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 3: So he marries a woman named Susie, and he's known

929
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 3: to party a lot at his friend's house. But it

930
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: does seem like he's calmed down with the arsons and

931
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: mostly with the thefts too. Two years past and that

932
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 3: brings us to those rainy days in July leading up

933
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: to the levee breaking on the sixteenth.

934
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: So we met him as like a concerned citizen, yes,

935
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: But when the cops find out and see him, they're like, uh, oh,

936
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: our boys, our.

937
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: Boy was at the scene of what was it a crime?

938
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: That's the thing.

939
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:06,919
Speaker 1: It was a natural event.

940
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: Right or was it a crime?

941
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 1: That's what they was.

942
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 3: So on October first, James is arrested on unrelated burglary charges,

943
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 3: but once in the station, it turns out the police

944
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,959
Speaker 3: have warns for five different crimes, most prominent of which

945
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 3: is intentionally breaking the levee that caused the July sixteenth flood.

946
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: So they immediately are like, you did this.

947
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: It wasn't it, did it?

948
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 3: Jimmy vehemently denies this. He denies all the charges. He

949
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 3: says he did pass a bad check, that's the only

950
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 3: thing he did. And he stole a back back out

951
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 3: of a truck. He admits to those two things.

952
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: What if he did both of those things while he

953
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: was piling up those sandbags, he just got it done.

954
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, But he says he had nothing to do with

955
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 3: this flood. He is ultimately convicted under an obscure Missouri

956
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 3: law that makes it a felony to quote knowingly cause

957
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 3: a catastrophe. A catastrophe is defined as an explosion, fire, flood,

958
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: collapse of a building, or the release of poison, radioactive material, Bacteria,

959
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 3: viruses are other difficult to confine forces.

960
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: My story is it a catastrophe story as well?

961
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this event must result in the death or

962
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 3: physical injury to ten or more people, so now, or

963
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 3: substantial damage to five or more buildings.

964
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 2: No, but that's what he gets. Fucking that's the law.

965
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 2: It's like an old obscure lot that they're like, great.

966
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: Let's use this, which sounds like there's like a sheriff

967
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: that knows that boy, and I'm going to get him

968
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: this time. Like, Okay, it does, doesn't it?

969
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 3: It does? But again, no one was killed in the flood,

970
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 3: but of course many buildings were substantially damaged.

971
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. We have discussed.

972
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 3: All the evidence the police have that show that Jimmy

973
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 3: broke the levee.

974
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: That's it. It's like a hunch and he was there. Oh,

975
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: that's it.

976
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: There are case is basically that he was there and

977
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 3: that he has a history of setting fires and thefts

978
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 3: and there this is water.

979
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he controls water.

980
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: He can't.

981
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: I didn't tell you that he gave up fire for water.

982
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: But it's water. Not That is a really good point.

983
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 1: It's like even caught fire. Sure, maybe maybe, but he's

984
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: taken it in a totally different direction.

985
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 3: Now, there's only one other piece of evidence, and it's this.

986
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 3: In the days leading up to the levee break, when

987
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 3: everyone had been helping to stand bank, Jimmy included he

988
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 3: had said or a teenager he knew that he was

989
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 3: playing basketball.

990
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 2: With said that. He said, quote, if that levee breaks,

991
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 2: I hope it strands Susie over and Taylor so I

992
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 2: can party here without her end quote.

993
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: Doesn't sound like a teenager talking.

994
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 3: It doesn't look like a teenager talking, and it also

995
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: doesn't sound like a threat.

996
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: Right as much as it is a hope a fun

997
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: husband's concept about getting away from how you know a.

998
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 2: Divorce is coming.

999
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 3: And this is pretty much the only basis for the

1000
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 3: motive of wanting to cause a flood in order to

1001
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 3: party that the prosecution uses like they didn't.

1002
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: Have a motive.

1003
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 3: This guy who who knows if he got anything out

1004
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 3: of saying that as they tend to do.

1005
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's it.

1006
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: The only other real evidence the prosecutor has is a

1007
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 3: federal expert saying that the levee had failed at one

1008
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: of its strongest points and had been inspected two hours earlier,

1009
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 3: like it should not have failed where it did, right,

1010
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 3: But at the same time, two soil experts who testify

1011
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: for the defense said that the levee was very likely

1012
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 3: to break, and that the spot where it did was

1013
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 3: where they would have predicted it would have broken.

1014
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 1: But those are soil experts.

1015
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, because here's the thing to go, because it's a

1016
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 3: very narrow point in the river, which creates a bottleneck.

1017
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: So the river's flowing, it goes to here, and then

1018
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 3: suddenly there's a ton of pressure on the levee, and

1019
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 3: the effort to build the levees taller by pushing the

1020
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 3: dirt up with bulldozers actually may have undermined the levees

1021
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: by thinning them out. And it was like really soft sand,

1022
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 3: so they pushed it and made the wall thinner. Oh

1023
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 3: and also it went It was thirty one point nine

1024
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 3: inches and the water was thirty.

1025
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: Two Yeah, that's like an inch too much?

1026
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 2: Did I say inch? Do I mean something else.

1027
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 3: I think you mean feet and I mean feet, and

1028
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 3: I mean and when I say inches feet kick, you

1029
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 3: should know.

1030
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: So basically, the experts testify that.

1031
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 3: They also say that it's highly unlikely that anyone would

1032
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 3: be able to intentionally break a levee holding back a

1033
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 3: raging river without being swept away themselves.

1034
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: What if they're a bad kid? Could they do it?

1035
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 3: They can then hold on tight and remember most people

1036
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 3: had left the levees by that point because they were

1037
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: basically at their maximum level at the time they failed.

1038
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: They were dangerous.

1039
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, why didn't he? He was hanging out to the

1040
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: next people got there.

1041
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: I think he later says something about feeling like, you know,

1042
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 3: this is my way to prove myself and I'm going

1043
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 3: to be you know, a see me and know that.

1044
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, I'm going to get the accolades

1045
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 3: I've always wanted kind of a thing.

1046
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: But in truth, he's just down there with the lighter

1047
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: trying to light the levee on fire. I was trying

1048
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: to light the river on fire. Bro over and over.

1049
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 3: Okay, there's also evidence about we're not going to get

1050
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 3: into levees, not actually doing anything in the first place

1051
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 3: but exacerbating flooding. I don't want to argue with you

1052
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 3: today about.

1053
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: We will go back into our Katrina argument.

1054
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So here's the thing.

1055
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 3: Jimmy is found guilty and he's given a life sentence.

1056
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: What no one dies a life sentence. There's a griff

1057
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,959
Speaker 1: behind all of this or someone and that's mad.

1058
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 3: And when the judge convicts him, he says to Jimmy like, basically,

1059
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 3: you did this because you get a sense of quote

1060
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 3: excitement or power or sexual arousal or all of the

1061
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 3: above end quote from his alleged crimes, So basically saying

1062
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 3: like he's a pyro destroyer and he gets like gets

1063
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 3: off on all of this, which isn't even wasn't even

1064
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 3: part of the prosecution's argument.

1065
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: He just kind of And also it makes sense for

1066
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: fire because that's like a psychologically studied right thing, Right,

1067
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: How would the opposite thing give him?

1068
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally.

1069
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: And also that would he would have had to do

1070
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: it before to know that that turns him on, right,

1071
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: it's such a weird gigantic it's not it doesn't make

1072
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: any sense. It makes no sense.

1073
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 3: Missouri law enforcement officials themselves speak on the record and

1074
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 3: say that the sentence feels out of step with the

1075
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 3: severity of the crime. So everyone's like, wait a second,

1076
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 3: get in here, hurry up. Assuming there was a crime,

1077
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 3: child predators routinely get much shorter sentences for murder, and

1078
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 3: fucking pedophiles and rapists get shorter sentences than this.

1079
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: So this trace is the question.

1080
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 3: Why are the authorities so keen to charge anyone for

1081
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,720
Speaker 3: breaking the levee if it's not even clear.

1082
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:27,280
Speaker 2: That it was broken?

1083
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,720
Speaker 3: Oh, scapegoating, Like I said, the levees had been breaking

1084
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 3: over a thousand times up and down the river all

1085
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 3: throughout the early summer of ninety three. It had been happening.

1086
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: This isn't the only one, And I was like, oh no,

1087
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 3: this is the one. It must be someone who did it.

1088
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 3: And no one had been criminally charged for those breaking

1089
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 3: of levies.

1090
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: They couldn't get them.

1091
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 3: There's a contingent of people, yes, I said, a contingent

1092
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 3: of people led by a journalist named Adam Pittluck who's

1093
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 3: the guy who did the Vice documentary who believed that

1094
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 3: Jimmy was a convenience scapegoat.

1095
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 2: Okay, this is just going to flow you with.

1096
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 3: Okay, the local farmers do not have federal flood insurance

1097
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 3: that covers flooding.

1098
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: They don't have insurance for that.

1099
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 3: They do have homeowners policies that cover damage due to

1100
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 3: criminal vandalism.

1101
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: Oh no, So.

1102
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 3: In every other instance of flooding on the Mississippi River

1103
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 3: in the summer of nineteen ninety three, there are no

1104
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 3: insurance payouts because of that. But in West Quincy, Missouri,

1105
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 3: most farmers and business owners are made whole again after

1106
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 3: Jimmy is convicted for causing the flood. So out of

1107
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 3: the people who get that insurance payout because it was

1108
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 3: vandalism includes the civilian chair of the levee District Commission.

1109
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 3: He's the largest landowner in the area, and he is

1110
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 3: one of the people who had testified in Jimmy's trial

1111
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 3: that the levee had broken at its strongest point. Oh,

1112
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 3: she testified against Jimmy and got the biggest payout of

1113
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 3: anyone he lied. And even he's in this documentary for

1114
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 3: a minute being all like sheepish, and he's like, well,

1115
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 3: I think he served his time.

1116
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: You could tell.

1117
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 3: He's like, oh, I did not think he would get

1118
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 3: back in prison a life sentence, so that, oh, he

1119
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 3: does not disclose his financial stake in the outcome of

1120
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 3: the trial when he testifies, so that immediately is.

1121
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: This smells like making a murderer.

1122
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 2: It does, But nobody died.

1123
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 3: So Jimmy's granted a new trial when it comes to

1124
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 3: light that the prosecution had not shared all of their

1125
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 3: witnesses with the defense in advance. But Jimmy's conviction and

1126
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 3: sentence are both upheld at the new trial. I think

1127
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 3: the town and the people in the surrounding area were

1128
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 3: so angry and so upset that they wanted to blame someone. Yes,

1129
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 3: they found him. Yeah, he's a scapegoat.

1130
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 1: And I mean, even if no one died, the amount

1131
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: of oh of damage, I'm a station, it's so devastating.

1132
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, personally, I don't think he did anything to cause

1133
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 3: a huge levey to collapse. Has to be more than

1134
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 3: one person could do.

1135
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I just tried to picture it where I'm like, so,

1136
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: if he has like a box cutter and he's slicing

1137
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: open the sandbags, he single handedly do it.

1138
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah.

1139
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 3: So, while he's in prison, his two biggest advocates are

1140
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 3: his mother and the journalist Adam Pittlock that I mentioned.

1141
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 3: He writes a book laying out the case for Jimmy's

1142
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 3: innocence and appears in the Vice documentary. And also the

1143
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: other one is his mother Sharon. On the Criminal episode,

1144
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 3: she says, quote, there's only two that know what happened

1145
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 3: that night, and nobody's going to change my mind. That

1146
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: is God Almighty and jim Everything happens for a reason

1147
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 3: that me and the river don't get along. As far

1148
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 3: away from the river I can stay, I'm happy end quote.

1149
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 3: And she just talks to him every day and it's

1150
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 3: just like on his side, trying to get him.

1151
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 2: Back, trying to get him.

1152
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: I'm still in jail. U h.

1153
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 3: He's fifty six years old now, when he's twenty three,

1154
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,439
Speaker 3: and he's been in prison since nineteen ninety three. He's

1155
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 3: taken every class available to him and train service dogs.

1156
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 2: Oh come on.

1157
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 3: After a few delays, he's finally scheduled to have his

1158
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 3: first parole hearing at the end of this month.

1159
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: Oh Wow.

1160
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 2: July twenty twenty six good. As of the Vice.

1161
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 3: Documentary, which was made in twenty nineteen, he did not

1162
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,760
Speaker 3: plan to apologize for causing the flood at his hearing,

1163
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 3: which would he takes responsibility and they'd be more likely

1164
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 3: to parole him, especially because nobody was hurt.

1165
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 2: But he refuses to do it because.

1166
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: He's adamant that he didn't do anything wrong and he

1167
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 3: will not take blame for something that he didn't do right.

1168
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 2: I have a pass that I am not proud of.

1169
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 3: But when it comes to the West, Quincy Levey, I'm

1170
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 3: sorry for what people lost, I'm sorry for what we

1171
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 3: went through as a community. But for me to go

1172
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 3: in there and say I'm sorry for something I've never done,

1173
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 3: I can't do it.

1174
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: End quote.

1175
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,240
Speaker 3: Jimmy's biggest advocate, his mother, Sharon, passes away in twenty

1176
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 3: nineteen without getting to see her son free. And that

1177
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 3: is the story of Jimmy Scott and the Great nineteen

1178
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 3: ninety three Mississippi River Flood. So clickbait, wow, behind the.

1179
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: Clickbait, behind the clickbait, and the real story. Yeah yeah,

1180
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,439
Speaker 1: because what the fuck is the partying thing? He did

1181
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: it to part and so he goes to jail for life.

1182
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 3: The whole argument, too, is like, Okay, if he did it,

1183
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 3: which a lot of people and including me, don't think

1184
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,800
Speaker 3: he did, that's too long of a sentence. That doesn't

1185
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 3: make any sense, right, but I really don't think he

1186
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 3: had any to do. You know, there's no proof that

1187
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 3: he did. They couldn't prove he did anyways, Right, so

1188
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 3: he shouldn't even have been sentenced.

1189
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's that If it is what you're saying,

1190
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 1: it's like corruption at the highest and most kind of

1191
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: evil level. Totally just let that guy go and be

1192
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: in jail forever. Right, good one. That's not a good one.

1193
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 2: I was excited to do that one.

1194
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you great?

1195
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 2: Thank you?

1196
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: This is I would say in our top seven thousand episodes,

1197
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't you.

1198
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 3: I hope I have an update for you at the

1199
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 3: end of the month that he like, oh my god,

1200
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:49,760
Speaker 3: it's out or something.

1201
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can't wait to hear. Yeah, that's very exciting.

1202
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for listening to that.

1203
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: Yes, listener and watcher, thank you for listening. We genuinely

1204
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: have gratitude.

1205
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 3: You're like a levy and unbreakable Levey to us, to

1206
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 3: us in our hearts and souls.

1207
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: That's right, Stay sexy and don't get murdered. A goodbye, Elvis.

1208
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: Do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly

1209
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: right production.

1210
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our Associate producer

1211
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 3: is Tessa Hughes.

1212
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: Our editor is Aristotle Ascevedo. This episode was mixed by

1213
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: Leona Squalacci. Our researchers are Mayor McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1214
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot

1215
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

1216
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 2: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1217
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1218
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

1219
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 2: And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and

1220
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 2: the remind Me buttons. That's the best way you can

1221
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 2: support our show.

1222
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: Goodbye,