1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Hi, It's suckshat as the year comes to a close 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: and zero takes a break for the holiday. This week, 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: there's a special holiday Vonus. I wanted to share with 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: you an episode of Ted Talks Daily which featured my 5 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: Ted Talk. It came out of the work I did 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: on my book Climate Capitalism, which by the way, would 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: make for a great gift if you're doing any last 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: minute holiday shopping. I finished writing the book two years ago, 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: but in today's politics, where the issue of climate is 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: hardly front and center, the thesis of the book feels 11 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: even more relevant because for climate solutions to last in 12 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: the long run, they need to make money. They need 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: to be profitable. Enjoy the tech Talk. Next week we'll 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: be revisiting my conversation with Nicola Twilly, author of Frostbite, 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: and we'll be back in the new year with fresh episodes, 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: including a conversation with science fiction writer Kim Stanley Robinson 17 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: on what to expect for the climate in twenty twenty five. 18 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: You're listening to Ted Talks Daily, where we bring you 19 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 2: new ideas to spark your curiosity. Every day. I'm your host, 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: Elise Hugh. Could the market forces of capitalism help combat 21 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 2: climate change, or was capitalism the very cause of the 22 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: global climate crisis in the first place. Climate reporter uckshut 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 2: Rathi says the answers are complex and offers solutions for 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: how capitalism can be used for climate solutions the world needs. 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: I was at a climate protest and I saw a 26 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: poster that said, in big letters, burn capitalism, not coal. 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: How many of you agree that to tackle climate change 28 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: we should stop burning coal? Raise your hands, almost all 29 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: of you, And how many of you agree that to 30 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: tackle climate change we should burn capitalism? There are a 31 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: few hands, but not as many. I'm a journalist and 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: I write about climate solutions, and when I ask this 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: question of people, I get the full range of answers, 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: from those who say that the system that got us 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: into this mess can never get us out of it, 36 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: to those who say that the only answer is to 37 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: unleash market forces for the innovations we need. But who 38 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: is right? I wanted to find the answer for myself, 39 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: so I started on the rooftop of my childhood home 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: in India. I wanted to get solar panels for my parents. 41 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: It took two days to get quotes, two weeks to 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: have those shiny devices up on the roof, ready to 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: capture the sun's energy. The payback was quick. Electricity bills 44 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: fell and my parents have recovered the investment in five years. 45 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: For the next fifteen years they can enjoy solar power 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: for free. So what has capitalism got to do with it? Well, 47 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: India did not invent the technologies that go into solar panels. 48 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: Even today, India manufactures only a small fraction of what 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 1: it deploys, and yet a country with less than three 50 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: thousand dollars of income per person per year is able 51 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: to benefit from what is now one of the world's 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: cheapest sources of energy. This has happened because profit seeking 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: companies want to sell all of us more and more 54 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: solar panels. But it has happened because governments created that 55 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: market through subsidies and regulations. We know the more we build, 56 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: the cheaper it gets. And it's not just the story 57 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: of solar. Between twenty nine and twenty nineteen, the price 58 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: of solar fell ninety percent, win seventy percent, lithemian batteries 59 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: eighty five percent. This is what I call climate capitalism. 60 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: Climate emergency is forcing governments and businesses to change how 61 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: capitalism works, to use its forces for creating the solutions 62 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: we need, rather than making the problem worse. And look, 63 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: it's not happening everywhere or at the pace which we need. 64 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: There are still companies that are profiting from pollution. However, 65 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: in country after country where I've had a chance to report, 66 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: I've found that a combination of people, policy, and technology, 67 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: when they come together, climate solutions do work. Now, the 68 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: primary motivation to deploy these solutions does not have to 69 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: be tackling climate change. Other pressing issues such as air pollution, 70 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: or energy security or global competitiveness can garner even more support. 71 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: How exactly, let me tell you the story of Wangam. 72 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: You've probably never heard of him, but he has done 73 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: more for the global rise of electric cars than Elon Musk. 74 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: Juan was born in China. He trained as an auto 75 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: engineer before moving to Germany and working for Audi. There, 76 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: he saw the lifestyle the Germans lived and realized that 77 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: perhaps Chinese people may never be able to experience it. 78 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: That's because in two thousand, China burned about one barrel 79 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: of oil per person per year. Germans burned twelve times 80 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: as much. So he made the case to the Chinese 81 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: leadership that the country needed to work on an alternative, 82 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: and that he was willing to lead the charge. So 83 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: he was given a chance to work on a government program. 84 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: One's team, in a period of eight years, built hundreds 85 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: of electric cars and buses that were used at the 86 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: Beijing Olympics. In those same eight years, the country's oil 87 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: built ballooned and its cities became globally infamous for air pollution. 88 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: But One had shown that an alternative could work. If 89 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: China could scale the manufacturing of electric cars, air pollution 90 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: would be cut, all import would be cut, and most importantly, 91 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: China would create a new industry that could compete with 92 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: other countries. So One was made the science minister and 93 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: the government started giving out tens of billions of dollars 94 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: in subsidies for the manufacturing of electric cars and lithemian batteries. 95 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: The government also started putting regulations to make it harder 96 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: to buy fossil fuel cars. Even today, if you're in 97 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: Shanghai and you want to buy a gasoline power car, 98 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: you have to enter a lottery and win it. If 99 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: you want an electric car, you can just go to 100 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: a showroom and buy one. The Chinese government provided direction, 101 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: but it was the practitioners of capitalism that made a 102 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: small electric car industry into the global giant that it 103 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: is today. One of those investors was Warren Buffett. He 104 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: invested in a little known company then called BYD. Today 105 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: BYD sells more electric cars than Tesla. Now you might 106 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: think what China did cannot be replicated by democracies, but 107 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: as it happens, China took inspiration from the paragon of capitalism, 108 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: the USA. Throughout the previous century, the US has used 109 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: the instruments of government to redirect investments toward national priorities. 110 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: Take the semiconductor industry the reason why California is home 111 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: to Silicon Valley. It was created with generous contracts from 112 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: the Department of Defense. It's also a similar case for biotech, 113 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: for airlines, for the Internet. All of them have fingerprints 114 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: of the government from its birth. In fact, China's electric 115 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: vehicle policy is a modified version of California's zero emissions 116 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: vehicle mandate. That policy was crucial in keeping Tesla afloat 117 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: by providing subsidies. But that China has a lead on 118 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: all sorts of green technologies, the US is being forced 119 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: to catch up. The inflation reduction Act, passed in twenty 120 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: twenty two, is one response. It will see the US 121 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: government provide hundreds of billions of dollars of subsidies towards 122 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: all kinds of solutions, from green hydrogen to heat pounds 123 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: that will be multiplied by matching private investment. But climate 124 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: capitalism isn't just about putting government subsidies to work. That's 125 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: because the climate crisis is the greatest market failure of 126 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: all time. Governments around the world have allowed corporations to 127 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: pollute for free, and all that pollution is causing damages 128 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: to all of us in the form of climate impacts, health, inequalities, 129 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: dislocation of communities. In some parts of the world, leaders 130 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: are starting to correct that mistake. Europe has put a 131 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: price on pollution and created legally binding targets that has 132 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: helped the continent cut its carbon footprint faster than any other. 133 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: It's also changed how businesses operate in Europe. The Danish 134 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: Island Natural Gas Company was founded in nineteen seventy two. 135 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: For forty years, it dug up fossil fuels. Then Denmark 136 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: adopted a carbon price and a climate law, and suddenly 137 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: its business model became implausible. Today, you know that company 138 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: has orstered. It transitioned away from fossil fuels starting in 139 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, and it has become the largest 140 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: developer of offshore wind power. This hasn't been a smooth ride. 141 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: There just aren't as many success stories as the world needs. 142 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: That's because the climate challenge is really complicated. India has 143 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: an ambitious renewables goal, but it's falling behind. Europe has 144 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: seen job losses because its carbon price has been too high. 145 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: That has caused some industries to shut down and move 146 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: to other parts where there isn't a carbon price, and 147 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: China's emissions last year rose despite a record clean energy 148 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: build out. For climate capitalism to work, governments and businesses 149 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: need to be flexible. They need to recognize when there 150 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: are policies that require certainty, but if they're not working, 151 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: then they must be changed. India is now doubling down 152 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: on solar with batteries because it's seeing rise in electricity demand. 153 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: Europe has introduced a carbon tariff that's going to put 154 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,599 Speaker 1: a price on pollution on imports that will level the 155 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 1: playing field for domestic industry and stem job losses. And 156 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: some experts think that if China can continue its clean 157 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: energy build out at the same pace its emissions may 158 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: have peaked last year. Now what's remarkable is that some 159 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: businesses are saying that it's in their self interest to 160 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: act on climate change with or without regulations. So far, 161 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: we've looked at big economy wide changes. Now let's think 162 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: about something as simple as ice cream. You would think 163 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: that during a heat wave and an ice cream maker 164 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: will turn big profits selling lots and lots of ice cream. 165 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: But heat waves are becoming so extreme that people are 166 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: choosing to stay at home instead. At the same time, 167 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: small hold of farmers that are the supply chain of 168 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: ice cream makers are seeing their productivity fall. That's because 169 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: of intense heat, drought, floods. It means the cost of 170 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: making ice cream is going up. It's a double whammy, 171 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: lower sales, higher costs. Increasingly, businesses are recognizing that there 172 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: are fewer profits to be made on a planet on fire. 173 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: So let's go back to that poster. Is the answer 174 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: to tackle climate change to burn capitalism, not coal. I 175 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: hope the examples I've shared show that the problem is 176 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: in capitalism, but how it's been allowed to run. We 177 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: only have a few decades left to get to zero emissions. 178 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: The fastest way to get there is to change capitalism. 179 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: How to do it through a combination of people, policy 180 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: and technology. Dedicated people, smarter policies and cheaper technologies. That 181 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: is how you'll get businesses to focus on the solutions 182 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: the world needs. That is how people like my parents 183 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: in India and all of us around the world will 184 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: get access to those solutions. And that is how the 185 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: world will finally stop burning coal and all other fossil fuelds. 186 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: Thank you. 187 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: That was Ukshatrathi at Ted's Countdown Bloomberg Green Festival in 188 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. If you're curious about Ted's curation, find 189 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: out more at ted dot com slash curation guidelines. And 190 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: that's it for today. Ted Talks Daily is part of 191 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: the Ted Audio Collective. This episode was produced and edited 192 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: by our team Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Autumn Thompson, 193 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 2: and Alejandra Salazar. It was mixed by Christopher Faizy Bogan 194 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniella Balaaiso. I'm Elise Hugh. 195 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed, 196 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. 197 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for coming to my ted Talk, and thanks 198 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: to Elise Hugh and the Ted Talk's daily podcast team. 199 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: Do check out their daily feed. Each day the show 200 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: brings you a new idea that might just change the future, 201 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: and it's all under fifteen minutes. I am Akshatrati. Back soon.