WEBVTT - Never Worry About Money Again w/ Jesse Mecham #1178 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel. Today I'm going 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.880 to talk about how you can never worry about money 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:28.400 again with Jesse Meekham. Okay, So, frugality is a quarterstone 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.760 of personal finance advice. Cut back, spend less, reduce waste, 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.680 and for the average American drowning and debt. That's often 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.800 solid money advice. But money isn't just meant to sit 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.640 there untouched. It's also meant to be spent, to be experienced, 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:43.599 and to be enjoyed. In fact, even the money you're 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.199 saving now, well it's really just a third spending when 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.600 you think about it. And let's face it, money is 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:50.960 not easy to come by. We work hard for every 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.160 dollar we earn. So maybe the answer isn't simply just 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.960 spending less, right, Maybe that's not the answer to all 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.720 of our money questions. Maybe just maybe it's spending with 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:02.160 more intention. And my guest today he wants you to 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.160 worry less about money. He argues that the path there 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.200 is not endless deprivation like you might have heard about 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.840 on some personal finance shows in the past. It's about 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.240 changing the way you think about spending all together. Jesse 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.280 Meekham is the best selling author of many books. He's 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.800 a founder of wine app You Need a Budget, the 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.200 beloved budgeting app that's helped millions take control of their finances. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.760 Jesse glad to have you back on the show, man. 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:27.880 I'm glad to be here. I feel like your intro 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:29.520 did all the work. Like you nailed it. 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:31.880 Let's send it, Let's end this now we learned everything 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.840 we need to learn. This is a quick one. No, 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:36.760 there's ton man. I really enjoyed reading your book, and 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:38.880 there's a lot I want to get into with you, 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.560 and also just there's some interesting things I want to 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.160 touch on based on our conversation from many years ago. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:45.679 It's just going to follow up with you see how 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:47.880 things are going. But the first question we ask everybody 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:49.480 who comes on the show is what they like to 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:51.640 splurge on, Like what's your We call it the craft 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.960 beer equivalent here on how to money, because it's like, hey, 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.760 you're living in the here and now while also saving 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.680 money for your future self. What's that thing you splurge 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.400 on that people might think is a little insane. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:08.359 For just me personally, it is anything to do with woodworking, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.639 any any tool that I think I might potentially perhaps 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.160 use at some future point. I cannot get it, even 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.680 like a little jig to help with a certain little task, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.120 I can't get enough of. Family wise, I would say 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.120 where the family splurges, where Julie and I are kind 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.280 of tactical and combined is with travel. 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:28.840 That's where we pull out all the stops. 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:31.200 You won't you won't see us eating out around where 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.200 we live, but once we're traveling. 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.320 We're like, where where are the spots? What are we 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.280 going to hit? You know? So that's that's a big 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:38.680 one for us. Yeah, making those memories. 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:40.840 And I think woodworking was your answer last time. So 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.799 this has been a hobby passion for a long time. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.040 You know, I tend to kind of bounce from one 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.000 thing to another, but woodworking is kind of settling, and 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.959 it's it's totally opposite of computer work. It's slow when 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.040 normally I'm kind of wired to make decisions quickly and 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.240 move quickly and see progress quickly, and woodworking demands that 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.080 you don't do that, And so I enjoy it as 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.440 kind of a counterbalance to my natural state. You might say, 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:06.720 I know I'm not really good at it. I'm getting better, 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.720 but I just enjoy the like the novice phase of it. 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.480 I feel like you can always take some new angle 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:15.720 of woodworking and be a complete novice again, and I 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:17.160 enjoy I enjoy that. 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:19.560 I think there's I was literally just talking about this 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.079 with a friend this morning. There's something about in middle 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.200 aged life, being feeling like you're starting over at something 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.240 you feel little inept, but then you cross over and 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.120 you're like, oh, I'm not like a complete bozo at 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.359 this thing anymore, and there's something really good for our brains. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.240 And oftentimes I think in middle age we stick to 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.560 the things that we're good at, and there's something really 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.440 good for our brains about kind of starting over and 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.720 feeling like an idiot as we're beginning a new endeavor. 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:44.360 I absolutely go. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:45.720 I had a friend of mine that said he didn't 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.640 he wasn't afraid anymore. He was this very successful realtorney. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:50.680 He's just like, just I'm not I don't feel any 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.080 fear like you would maybe in high school with something new, 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.880 or heck, in grade school for sure, or right out 0:03:55.880 --> 0:04:00.640 of college. And so he started doing like improv classes 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.560 and he was full of fear, but he was searching 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:05.520 for something where he was just inept, you know, and 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.760 then kind of feeling these feelings. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.760 Again that hey hadn't felt for a while. Interesting idea. 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.040 Okay, so now you're making me think about the book 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:14.440 and like what I wanted to get into, and I 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.160 specifically wanted to start off by talking about worry. And 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.080 I think we live in a culture where like worry abounds, right, Yeah, 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.680 it feels almost like an American pastime, worry. It's his 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.800 American as apple pie baseball. I think, I guess, why 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:31.280 are you trying to take away something that's near and 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.119 near to Americans? Dressing our hearts is to worry about stuff. 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.520 And if we didn't worry about money, would money even exist? 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:38.720 Yeah? Yeah, oh there you go. That. Absolutely. 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.720 Money's an interesting thing because it tends to pop up. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.880 We don't went invented. It's just a thing. I've studied money, 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.159 the thing quite a bit, and it's interesting how it'll 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.359 just appear, you know, like the a thing to hold 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:51.920 value until you need the other thing. 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.680 That's what money is, essentially. But the worry bit. 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.760 We've thought about worry and different framing of that for 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.800 literally twenty years, like what is it we're trying to do? 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:03.839 And sometimes we would say we're trying to eliminate stress. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.800 We're trying to help people gain control, you know, we're 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.520 trying to help them to you know, like achieve their 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:14.000 financial goals. But at the end of the day, the 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:19.360 worry captures kind of both ends and everything in the middle, 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.239 where they're worried about maybe sending their kid to college, 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.240 or they're worried about just finishing college, these big things. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.480 They're worried about their job situation, they're worried about paying 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.520 a mortgage, big worry. But then also they're worried about 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.159 like they they literally, you know, buy a coffee and 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.360 they're worried like, ah, should I be Can I afford that? 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:39.680 Can I? 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.640 And so it's this it's this ever present, low grade 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.160 hum like you know, when the power goes out jol 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.560 and you realize your house is actually quite noisy, Like 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.520 all the humming is gone, the fridge is shut down. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.200 You're you know, you're maybe worried about the meat or 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.000 whatever in the fridge, but it's coming back on a 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.080 figures Yeah, no ac Like there's just no hum, and 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.640 I feel like worry For a lot of people, it's 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:09.440 just this low grade, taxing, subtly taxing hum that they 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.200 aren't even aware is there until it's gone. 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:13.440 Yeah. 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.359 I do want to get rid of it, whether or not. 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.120 It's very American. I say we try a different way. 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.400 Okay, yeah, yeah, No, I'm with you. I'm with you, 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.040 and I think there is something It's interesting, like worry 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.919 seems to be a part of how people interact with 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:31.000 money at all income levels. Yes, yeah, at all network levels, 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.280 Like it doesn't discriminate. I think lots of people assume, well, 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.840 once I hit this certain number on my net worth 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:38.560 or a man of my income, if my income were 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.320 to double tomorrow, I wouldn't worry about money again. And 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:42.360 that's just not true. 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.240 It's not true. I know too many. I've been on 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.520 both ends. I've been like scraping by. Julian and I 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.400 just scraping by, and we were, you know, trying to 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.640 figure things out. And we were able to eliminate worry 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.680 with very little income. And I make far more income 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.400 than I did then, and I still am tasked with 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.520 the same overarch goal, which is I need to decide 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.160 what my money's for. And I'm sure we'll get to that. 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.479 But whether or not you make a lot or a little, 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.320 I would only argue when someone says, hey, if you 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:09.920 make a lot, you don't have to worry about money, 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.640 and you won't fill it all, I would say, no, 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.080 you're tasked with with something around, you know around. The 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.920 more money you have, the more responsibility you bear to 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.200 decide what it's for and to deploy it in a 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.800 way that's aligned with what you really care about with 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:25.680 you know, who you really are. It would be a 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.559 tragedy if someone thought, oh, I have enough, so let's 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.640 just let it be frittered away by every marketer with 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:31.440 a new tagline. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:32.840 You know, we don't want We don't want that. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:34.880 Yeah, we still want to be intentional with every doctor, 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.720 even if it just means yeah, we were able to 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.000 be more generous right with with what we've been given, like. 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:42.840 Whatever it may be, more can bring a lot of 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:43.480 working tools. 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.080 Yeah yeah, okay, So you started wine now a long 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.600 time ago, and people often associate budgeting with saving, but 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.080 you wrote a book about spending, which is interesting, like 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.320 why did the budget guy? And I know you can 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.240 even talk about I guess you don't seem to like 0:07:58.280 --> 0:07:59.840 the term I loge to work. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.200 Yeah, let's just sell it what it is. Yeah, okay, Yeah, 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:04.840 it learns much baggage. It has too much baggage. 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.400 If people understood the word budget the way I do 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:09.920 and the way many many other people do that have 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:11.720 been with us for a long time. I'm cool with 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.239 the word. But we want to find people that want 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.560 to decide what their money's for and live intentionally and 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.120 eliminate worry and get really good at money. 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:21.360 And they come. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.200 With preconceived notions around the word budget that I just 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:24.520 don't want to deal with anymore. 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.080 Budget spend anymore? What how, what's a better way to 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:27.520 think of it? 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.680 Budgeting is knowing deeply what your money is for and 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:36.240 then watching it do that thing in my In my mind, 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.920 budgeting is spending well. In my mind, budgeting and you 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.440 it's like you and your money are perfectly lined up. 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.240 But I just you know, we tried for about five 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.480 years to redefine the word for the English language, and 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.320 I don't know if you've tried that, Joe, But it's 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.000 not easy to just change the definition of a word. 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.839 So you won't see us mention the word budget very 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.640 often unless we're just someone saying I hate budgeting, and 0:08:58.679 --> 0:08:59.960 we might say we hate it too. 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:01.560 You know, come see what we're doing over here. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.199 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, trying to change the 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.280 dictionary definition is that's a that's a big goal. 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:09.840 It's hard to do. Yeah. 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.240 And then when it comes to some of the standard 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.199 personal finance advice, that gets uttered too, Like you mentioned 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.040 this in the book that you hate this spend less 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.840 than you earn. It's been uttered millions of times, right, 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.120 It's it's kind of seen as like a benchmark of 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.240 if you can do that, like you can start to 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.000 make progress with your money. And there's a lot of 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.079 Americans who aren't even crusting that hurdle. But why do 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:31.000 you hate that advice? Though? 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:31.720 Yeah? 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.400 I mean you know here we are like money can 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.800 only be spent, that's its only purpose. So when someone's like, no, 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.440 I'm saving it, it's like, well, no, you're just going 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:43.760 to spend it later. Like if you have a dollar 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:45.800 in your pocket, are you spending that money or saving 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:47.160 that money? And you're like, well, I'm going to buy 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.679 groceries tomorrow, Well are you saving it until tomorrow? Is 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.679 it savings right now? Like we have this weird thing 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:53.199 where if we aren't going to spend it right now, 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.600 it's savings, but not like three days from now, three 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.880 days from now, it's still spending. So it's a weird thing. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.640 So what you're really saying is no money is just spending. 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.920 And someone's like, no, no, no, I'm investing and you're like, well, yeah, 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.440 you're buying something. You're buying a stock or whatever, and 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.400 you're hoping that you get money back for it. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:10.559 And then what do you do with that money? Or 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:11.840 what are your kids gonna do with that money? 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.440 Because you're long gone, they're going to spend it, right, 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:16.719 Or someone's like no, I don't spend, I'm going to 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.079 give and imagine, like just trace that for a second. 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.199 You give money to a charity, we're not going to 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.000 call it spending for a second. You give money to 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:26.840 a charity, and what does that charity do with the money? 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:28.720 You better hope they don't just sit on it. They're 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.360 supposed to spend it. They're actually by law required to 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.240 spend I think some percentage of their assets or they 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.120 aren't a bona fide charity per the irs. So even 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:38.439 the IRS is like, listen, if you want to be 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.560 a charity, you better be spending your money at you know, 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:42.600 a five percent draw down rate or whatever. It is 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.680 so you would be mad if you found out that 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.120 charity was just sitting on your money because they're supposed 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.200 to be spending it. Because that is how money, that's 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.840 what money does. That's the only thing money can do 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.400 is be spent, be exchanged. So when you go back 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.560 to this idea of spend less than you earn, if 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.000 you know that the only thing money can do is 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:08.160 be spent, then what you're saying is do the thing, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.760 do less of the thing that is the thing's only purpose. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.280 And that's where it starts to break down. Now when 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:16.480 we're talking about like, hey, we want to set aside 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.320 some money for the future. Of course we're all in 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.520 on that, Like whinab is built around that idea. 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.600 This book is appreciating yolo philosophy. 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:26.040 Yeah no, not at all. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.200 But the idea that you just save and save and 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.400 save and never get to enjoy the fruits of that, 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:34.280 I think is just totally off base. 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.439 Yeah yeah, I think if you're if you're thinking about 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:42.240 it like that, and then it's perpetually pushing the joy 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.480 that money can bring out into this far off future 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.679 that you can't even imagine. And that's why I think, 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.960 like when you're talking about investing. There was that Fidelity 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.160 study way back in the day that if people took 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.040 a picture and morphed it into an older version of themselves, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.320 they were more likely to invest money for their future 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.680 selves because they can identify with what they were going 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:02.160 to look like. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.079 There was a purpose, yeah, exactly. Attention to the money 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:05.720 was made real. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.000 Yeah, yeah, and so there's something important about that so 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.640 that we can be thoughtful about having money to spend 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.040 later down the road for ourselves. But I think there's 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.800 also this hyper frugal mentality that can set in where 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.080 you're like, I'm just kicking the can and yeah, maybe 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.600 i'll but if you're not thinking about it as future spending, 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:27.720 it can almost feel like this this legalistic rule that 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.880 you have to live by and you haven't really connected 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.040 it to something tangible and real that you're going to 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.560 experience in the future. I mean, like that's important, right, 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:39.520 It is important. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:41.440 I mean, we're just trying to get people from bad 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.040 at money to good at money, and it's a skill. 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.240 I mean, you're talking about how to money like, we're 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.160 talking about doing it well, and you are not doing 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.440 money well if you are just frugal because you're afraid. 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.160 And there are a lot of people that are frugal 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.760 out of fear. Now, if someone comes to me there 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:00.080 like Jesse, I am frugal because a game is a 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.400 foot and I want to win at this game, and 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.200 they describe this game where you can see them just 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.240 lighting up inside, and I'm like, Okay, that person, they're 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:08.640 just they're like loving the game. 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:09.600 Let them play the game. 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.839 Yes, but a lot of people are out of fear 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.559 just saying I can't spend, I can't spend. And what 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.160 we get them to do is answer the question of 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.920 what their money is for and really start to press 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:21.320 on that. 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.880 What is it really for? What is it really for? 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.200 And when they really start to press they learn more 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.480 about themselves, they learn more about money's true purpose, and 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.720 they start to spend without the worry, without the fear. 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.360 They aren't making more money, but they have more clarity. 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:41.600 And then they're putting their newfound intention right against that 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:45.600 clarity and they're spending well, they're feeling like they're getting 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.199 good at money finally, and like they're spending without guilt. 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.679 You will have people that will save up money, go 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.720 on a vacation and feel guilty that they are spending 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.880 the money. I just feel like that's an absolute tragedy. 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.000 And I've been there, man, I've been there. I remember 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.560 like some of the biggest, bigger expenses that were just 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.600 I knew it was the right thing for our family, 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:05.640 but I just had this. I mean, I remember almost 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.200 having a panic attack one time making signing a contract 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.560 to add on to our house. And we knew it 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.360 was the right thing for our family, and we knew 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.320 that we had saved and like we were able to 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.440 pay for it in cash, which is on American in 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.480 and of itself, but even still, I was like, I 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.520 remember being like, this is the right thing, signing the 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.880 documents and then freaking out and then I just had 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.120 like it took a conversation between my wife and I 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.960 to kind of like, oh, let's where are these emotions 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.120 coming from? And there is but there is something about 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.400 that that low grade hum and worry and then sometimes 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.640 it can even reach a fever pitch. One of the 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.800 things you talk about in the book, too, is you 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.920 say that like a lack of respect for money has 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.600 made us worry about it more. I'm curious, like what 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:48.560 you mean by that. 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:50.520 Yeah, a lot of times in order to get rid 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.160 of this worry that we think money is causing, we 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.080 will kind of relegate money to a corner. One of 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.400 my favorite books, your Money or Your Life. It's it 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.640 bifurcates money and life. It's like it's either this or this, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.200 and that book has a great message. Don't don't let 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.480 me steer anyone from a week from reading that. But 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.920 it's the bifurcation of money or life. Or you'll have 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.600 people say, like my financial life. I mean, I got 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.480 books upon books where it's just like, you know how 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.160 to build a financial life or whatever, and that the 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.680 premise of it, to me is is wrong. The idea 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.000 that money is somehow separate from us, that it's just 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.800 a chore, it's just a tool. It's this thing we 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.920 just have to learn to manage now we're adulting, or 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.120 whatever phrase we're going to use. If we can start 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.640 to see money truly for what it is, which is 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:39.600 that it is us. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:41.400 Like when you, like. 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.760 You Joel, when you are getting an education raised by parents, 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.760 learn all these things as a kid, start to network, 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:53.080 start to gain skills and expertise, start to exchange that 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.680 in the market you are getting money back. I mean 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.280 what else could we say you are offering, except like 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:04.000 you're in higher raising your entire childhood, everything you know, 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.920 all your blood, sweat, tears, calorically, what you ate this 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.920 morning to make the brain go. Everything is feeding up 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.360 to you adding value in a market and someone giving 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.640 you money. So it's like, all you're really offering is 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.200 here is Joel, Here's everything, he knows, everything he is, 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.320 Here's what Joel can do, Here's how Joel thinks. And 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:24.560 then the person's like, I like all of this that 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.440 Joel is bringing. I will give Joel money. 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.520 That's one star review on the podcast appah. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.560 Absolutely, and we will not have that everyone. We will 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:32.040 not have that. 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.360 So what you get is money for that thing. And 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.480 that's why I feel like the best thing you can 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.680 say that money is is you. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:39.920 You know. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.160 It's it's like this the listener right now on the 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.560 podcast like what you give and then what you get 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.480 it's just you back, and it's stored in this thing 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.280 we called money, and it just will sit there for 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.840 a bit, stored up like your economic energy. And I 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.840 hope everyone understands. I don't mean like we value people 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.360 based on money, not even we have inherent value. But 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.360 what I'm talking about is how we think of money 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:07.800 itself is you. Then we're starting to elevate money in 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.560 someone's eyes, like, that's not just a chore, that's not 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.639 just a task, that's not something evil, that's not something 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:14.879 that's wrong to want. 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.320 That's me. And when it's you, then money management, that 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.480 boring phrase we use, is really more about self care 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.119 and really about taking care of self and I hope 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.040 a level of self respect because that is you. And 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.560 then when we've elevated money up there, we can start 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:36.960 to be like, Okay, this really important thing that you're feeling, 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.840 where you feel like it's important, it has value, what 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:41.720 is this for? 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.440 We've kind of raised the stakes and then we ask 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.359 the core key question to get people. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:48.760 To start to think. 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.200 Basically, it's not just a quadrant of your life. Money 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.480 is touching every element of your life, and so you 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.399 have to realize that and think of money in that 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.760 way or you're going to be like, if your thoughts 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.159 about money are going to be degraded, they're not going 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.440 to be high enough, they're not going to be you're 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.000 not going to treat money as intentionally as you. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.720